S21.E10: Week 10/S21.E11: The Women Tell All

[chocolatine]

13 minutes ago, rebel2u said:

(God, I'm going to h-e-double hockey sticks for being so mean)

On this board? Never!

[RHJunkie]

9 hours ago, MsPH said:

I think what Liz was referring to when she claimed she'd tried to make their paths cross or whatever, is the same thing Jade referred to while defending Liz in the mags after the first two episodes. Apparently Liz had asked Jade to invite Nick to some charity even they were organising, but Nick was busy and couldn't make it. It wasn't clear if Nick had any idea about the ulterior motive behind the invitation, so I'm not surprised he doesn't know what on earth she's talking about. In any case, it's pretty ridiculous. They're all adults, Liz should've just invited him herself. I'm pretty sure they were also following each other on Twitter before filming, so she could've simply sent Nick a DM if she wanted. No need to try and orchestrate some undercover meeting through a friend, it's so high school.

That's why her explanation held no weight to me - because she made it seem like since she wasn't able to organize this faux random bump in with him that somehow her only other option was to sign up for his season of the Bachelor.  Pick up the phone or just message the guy. Or since you confided in Jade about her interest, tell Jade to pass your number to Nick and if he's still single and interested to get back to you. If within a week you heard nothing, then assume your answer. There were so many ways to go rather than going on national television (and pretending like you had never met him before...as if you were intentionally trying to set him up to see if he would remember a woman that he had a one night stand with). If she was too afraid of the rejection in a phone call or text message, no way in hell it would make sense for her to come on national television and test rejection on that level. If she had just acknowledged that she isn't even sure why she didn't use other means to contact him, that's at least better than talking over the question in hopes that people will forget what the question is.

Edited March 9, 2017 by RHJunkie

[truthaboutluv]

10 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

That US Weekly link about Luke and Danielle was particularly interesting because there was video of Luke talking about Nick as the Bachelor (he was asked).  He compared him to a ventriloquist, and I died! I saw it before I watched the latest episode, and I can't unsee it.  I wasn't a Luke fan during Jojo's season, but he may have more of a sense of humor than I thought.  Wonder what his season would have been like.  Ah well. 

That video just made me happier he wasn't picked because it's more fun watching his desperation and constant whining while insisting he's fine with how things turned out followed immediately by, "but remember how I was almost the Bachelor?" Yeah, whatever dude. The most delusional part of that interview was this gem.

Quote

“I feel like I’ve always been an open book,” the Nashville-based star says. “Through my time in the military, I’ve been through a lot of near-death experiences in my life. So I’ve learned to value life over the last several years and be open and be about relationships. Life is too short to be pretentious and closed off. I’m probably just more comfortable in my own skin and just being open. That’s probably why there was a lot of feedback that people wanted to see how I would be in that position. We’ll never know.”

Putting aside the absolute pathetic aspect of trying to use being in war as some selling point for being The Bachelor but I'm pretty sure most of the complaints about Luke from JoJo's season and why many weren't thrilled about him being the next lead is that he wasn't very open and instead spent most of the season as a humorless guy with a stick up his ass. 

Oh and then there is this gem:

Quote

Meeting Viall’s contestants — who may have been cast for him! — has gotten, well, awkward at times. “There’s this elephant in the room like, ‘Oh, well, we were supposed to meet on the show but now we’re meeting in person,” says Pell. “How do you react to that, because you don’t pursue it the same as you would on the show?”

Because you know clearly all these women were handpicked for him as opposed to the standard casting this show does every damn season. That's what gets me about all these Bachelor franchise people. They're all sitting around pointing fingers and judging each other like they're so much better when they're all desperate famewhores. Dude's still there trying to peddle his album of original music featuring odes to his great love for JoJo. Spare me.

[Bugs Meany]

On 3/7/2017 at 10:04 AM, Rainsong said:

Danielle M has joined Danielle L in eliminating the front portion of her dress, although the contrast in cleavage couldn’t be greater. 

Are you referring to previous episodes? Because it looks like they traded outfits rather than wear similar ones. Sadly, D.Lo chose to cover up for the first time all season, even though TWTA offers the most cumulative on-camera time of any episode.

[Madding crowd]

I didn't like the way Taylor was treated on TWTA. The way Harrison kept asking her why she was upset, while the women jeered at her and Corinne sat there like she won a prize. Corinne said just as many bad things to Taylor and at least Taylor apologized. I see nothing to like about Corinne-she is a spoiled rich baby-woman who eats kids food and has a nanny to take care of her. If Raquel is truly a family member, they should be helping her or taking care of her at this time-not using her to make Corinne's bed and cut up cucumbers for her. I really hope they are not going to have a show where people follow Corinne around her condo-nothing could be less interesting to me.

I was surprised that Danielle M was given no air time; Nick seemed pretty interested in her at one point. I still think she was the most beautiful woman there, but obviously Nick would rather have Raven who seems the total opposite to Nick. Then again, I thought Kaitlyn was the total opposite of Andi (I also thought Nick had zero feelings for Kaitlyn and just wanted to get on TV).

As far as the fantasy suite dates, I usually think sex happens more often then not. Keep in mind Nick has been kissing with these girls since day one, alcohol is involved, and why not? Sean Lowe was the only bachelor who I believed didn't have sex because of his religious beliefs. I would also believe it if someone was madly in love, but not sure I see that here either. I think Vanessa is very pretty, but why in the world did she go on a show with an American Bachelor if she wants to stay in Canada? There certainly might be men who would move there, but it won't be a guy who makes his living on reality TV shows like Nick. 

[GracieK]

I think Taylor is more insufferable than Kelsey Poe and that's saying something.  She strikes me as the type who does very well in her studies and in school, but I have a hard time believing that it will translate well into her career if the little she showed about herself is any indication (and I get that it's probably not a fair representation).  My impression isn't solely based on her interactions with Corrine, but her entire time on the show starting with how she told Nick during their introduction that her friends think he's a complete piece of shit.  She's awkward and doesn't at all seem comfortable relaxing and showing warmth.  Trying to educate Corrine on emotional intelligence just felt like she studied a textbook definition and is trying to lecture people on what she's learned in it's literalness.  She's obviously young and immature and must have little experience in her actual chosen career so far.  Graduating in a particular field doesn't make you an expert yet... she's got a long way to go before she starts imparting her wisdom on others.  As far as Corrine having some affect on her career or life, honey, you need to take responsibility for yourself and for putting yourself on this show and in these situations.  I doubt that anyone of consequence in her field is going to go on the word of Corrine calling her a bitch (particularly when she showed herself to be a pretty unpleasant and unlikeable person on her own). 

[huahaha]

14 minutes ago, GracieK said:

I think Taylor is more insufferable than Kelsey Poe and that's saying something.

Wow. That is a very strong statement! I can't agree though. Taylor's immature and trying to use her education to regain some power in a powerless situation. Kelsey was cracked in the head.

[yorklee2]

http://www.glamour.com/story/the-bachelor-nick-viall-vanessa-grimaldi-raven-gates-overnight-dates

I found a interesting Glamour article with Nick. The link's above but one thing I found interesting was Nick's answer to his statement about being proud to be an American:

Glamour: You said, "I’m a proud American! I don’t know if I see myself in Canada." That's a bold statement when you're considering getting engaged to a Canadian.

NV: I’m very progressive in a lot of ways, but I’m a very proud American. It sounds so corny to say, but I am and have always been very…I’m just so proud. I don’t ever not want to live in America. And Canada is great! I love Canada. A lot of great things in Canada. But…

His statement, "I don't ever not want to live in America" is pretty telling to me. So if he picks her (which seems to be a given) pretty much Vanessa moves to America or it's a no go. I vaguely remember reading something on here about she had went back to teaching after the show finished filming? Which it's possible she's only doing that until the finale airs and then will move down later but she seemed pretty determined to remain in Canada on the fantasy suite date. As another poster said it sounds like this relationship is DOA but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Edited March 9, 2017 by yorklee2

[GracieK]

5 minutes ago, huahaha said:

Wow. That is a very strong statement! I can't agree though. Taylor's immature and trying to use her education to regain some power in a powerless situation. Kelsey was cracked in the head.

Hahaha.. yeah she was cracked in the head.  Maybe that's why I think Taylor is worse.  She's not a nutjob, just a condescending asshole lol.

[Mabinogia]

12 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

I don’t ever not want to live in America. And Canada is great! I love Canada. A lot of great things in Canada. But…

Honestly, that just made Nick a lot less appealing to me, and I've been a great lover of his from the start. If that's how he feels, then he sure should have been having those where will we live conversations a lot sooner with the Canadian who might actually want to also stay in her country. It's also freaking Canada, which is technically part of North America so it's really that he doesn't want to move outside the United States. (I know, semantics, I just find his whole "Proud to be an American so I'll never live in another country" bit very ignorant. Those are two different things. You can still be proud of where you come from when you lives somewhere else.

[StatisticalOutlier]

10 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

It's also freaking Canada, which is technically part of North America so it's really that he doesn't want to move outside the United States.

Don't overlook that they speak French in Montreal.  Very scary to a lot of super-proud Americans.

[yorklee2]

26 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Honestly, that just made Nick a lot less appealing to me, and I've been a great lover of his from the start. If that's how he feels, then he sure should have been having those where will we live conversations a lot sooner with the Canadian who might actually want to also stay in her country. It's also freaking Canada, which is technically part of North America so it's really that he doesn't want to move outside the United States. (I know, semantics, I just find his whole "Proud to be an American so I'll never live in another country" bit very ignorant. Those are two different things. You can still be proud of where you come from when you lives somewhere else.

I've enjoyed Nick as the bachelor as well but I agree with you about he needed to have those conversations sooner rather than wait until the very end. You know I'm actually starting to wonder (as others have suspected) if at some point in this process he then realized that none of these women were totally what he was wanting and he just went with the ones who, although he knew he wouldn't end up staying with, he had the most physical attraction to, respected the most, and had the best times with. Knowing (in my opinion) that Vanessa would be the one he would ultimately pick so that the logistics of living in separate countries would be the excuse he could use to say why it didn't work out. But like I said it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Bookies could have a field day running odds about how long it would last.

Edited March 9, 2017 by yorklee2

[huahaha]

15 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

Bookies could have a field day running odds about how long it would last.

I'm a romantic, so the final pairings often sway me. If Nick and Vanessa make it much past After the Final Rose, I will be completely shocked though. If they had met in the same town, sure, they could be a couple. But Vanessa does not have the temperament to go play second fiddle to ANY guy's life on Dancing with the Stars, starting up a new company, and running around making appearances, etc., while she has to leave everything behind.

That's why I'm always much more optimistic when people like personal trainers and flight attendants are the ones picked. They're actually mobile. Making things worse, Nick doesn't even have a stable life for Vanessa to try to move into. Even a much stronger couple would have a hard time with the situation they're about to be in.

[ribboninthesky1]

51 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Don't overlook that they speak French in Montreal.  Very scary to a lot of super-proud Americans.

Ha!

1 hour ago, yorklee2 said:

http://www.glamour.com/story/the-bachelor-nick-viall-vanessa-grimaldi-raven-gates-overnight-dates

I found a interesting Glamour article with Nick. The link's above but one thing I found interesting was Nick's answer to his statement about being proud to be an American:

Glamour: You said, "I’m a proud American! I don’t know if I see myself in Canada." That's a bold statement when you're considering getting engaged to a Canadian.

NV: I’m very progressive in a lot of ways, but I’m a very proud American. It sounds so corny to say, but I am and have always been very…I’m just so proud. I don’t ever not want to live in America. And Canada is great! I love Canada. A lot of great things in Canada. But…

His statement, "I don't ever not want to live in America" is pretty telling to me. So if he picks her (which seems to be a given) pretty much Vanessa moves to America or it's a no go. I vaguely remember reading something on here about she had went back to teaching after the show finished filming? Which it's possible she's only doing that until the finale airs and then will move down later but she seemed pretty determined to remain in Canada on the fantasy suite date. As another poster said it sounds like this relationship is DOA but it but will be interesting to see how it plays out.

In the episode, Nick also said that he would do anything for the woman he loved.  But then, he also seemingly backtracked about the "traditional family" stuff.  When he first mentioned it in the hot tub, I didn't perceive it as "hey, your family is traditional, I'm not, and that fascinates me."  It sounded more like he was putting Vanessa on notice that he wasn't traditional.  But later on, when Vanessa asked him about it again, he was all, "I love that your family is traditional, I'm just not used to it, I'm interested, I like it!" So yeah, double-speak.  Personally, I think the whole "I'm proud to be an American" reasoning is bullshit. Not that I doubt that he's a proud American, but as others have mentioned, it's not like Canada is some country on a different continent and utterly foreign culture.  Wasn't Kaitlyn also Canadian?  I didn't watch her season, so I don't know if they were shown discussing it.

I'm willing to bet if Andi had been Canadian, and he was chosen, he'd be in Canada, at least part-time.  He may not be willing to do so for Vanessa, which is a different matter.  

But then, I've never seen this honest, open, and sincere Nick that others have, and as mentioned before, I'm unconvinced there's ever been much of a love story with any woman.  It's also why I didn't have any problems with Liz coming on the show.  

That said, I've no sympathy for Vanessa signing on for a show in the US, with a US lead, and having any expectation that said lead would move to Canada. Girl, bye.     

Edited March 9, 2017 by ribboninthesky1

[Wandering Snark]

14 hours ago, GracieK said:

I was surprised that Jasmine and her chokey got off easy at the Tell All.  

That was surely the oddest moment of the season. It was like she couldn't stop herself! Once you've mentioned something and someone has had a 'moving away from this maniac' body language response you'd think that she would have let it go after, say, the first 5 times... but no.

2 hours ago, GracieK said:

Graduating in a particular field doesn't make you an expert yet...

Reminds me of the saying: 'What do you call the person who finished last in his Med School class?' Doctor. I think of that when anyone talks of their degrees and their relative real world worth.

1 hour ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Don't overlook that they speak French in Montreal.  Very scary to a lot of super-proud Americans.

And that though they are Canadians they all speak Italian. So that's two languages she'd expect him to learn. As she showed she already was giving him lessons on the Italian he needed just for their first (required) Sunday visit.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Wandering Snark

[1992austenlover]

Personally, I actually understand the "I'm a proud American" excuse simply because, as a proud Canadian myself, I honestly can't picture living anywhere else but Canada. However, even though I might think that it's a legitimate excuse, it's still an excuse at the end of the day which makes me concerned about Nick's current mindset in regards to his relationship with Vanessa. Now, I'm not saying that he should move to Canada but the phrasing of that statement--and the fact that he seems pretty adamant about not wanting to leave the US--does strike me as a little worrisome. But who knows? Maybe Vanessa has already agreed to move to the US which would make this all a moot point or maybe Nick is trying to throw everyone off in his interviews. I will say that I think that this is the first time that I'm actually more interested in seeing the After the Final Rose than I am the actual finale. Either they are really happy together or they are already broken up. Though I'm hoping for the best, for me, it can go either way... 

[truthaboutluv]

13 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

and having any expectation that said lead would move to Canada. Girl, bye.     

Except she never expressed said expectation and in fact, when asked before the filming of the season started, because yes, the lead is American, she stated that she would move if she was chosen and fell in love. But that wouldn't make for good edited conflict. I get that people can only comment on what's shown in the episode but even then, I don't think we ever saw Vanessa say she would never move. I really think the discussion was merely to acknowledge if it's something Nick would ever even consider or if it's solely on her to make that change.

I just find all the assumptions of Nick and Vanessa having no shot of lasting because neither will move is interesting because we haven't heard what they're doing, assuming he picked her. To me, the ATFR is what will be truly telling for these two. If they come on there still hemming and hawwing with no plan in sight, then yeah, call this done. But for all we know, maybe Vanessa is moving but of course while the season was airing, she kept her regular routine so as to not spoil the fact that he chose her.

Edited March 9, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Bobcatkitten]

Not a fan of Corinne. I found her childish, immature and spoiled. Having said that I thought Taylor was a mess. Having a degree doesn't make you automatically smarter. And she could barely pull together cogent sentences.

[1992austenlover]

1 minute ago, truthaboutluv said:

Except she never expressed said expectation and in fact, when asked before the filming of the season started, because yes, the lead is American, she stated that she would move if she was chosen and fell in love. But that wouldn't make for edited conflict. i

I actually do believe that Vanessa would be willing to move to the US for Nick. However, the editing of this show makes it so difficult to figure out what is real and what is edited drama. Like, I get that Vanessa is close to her family and the show is definitely making it seem like moving away from Montreal is a non-negotiable for her...but then I come on this board and I read things about her living in Toronto (or Vancouver?) in the past and I feel like maybe her seeming unwillingness to move is being misrepresented on the show. I just refuse to believe that a smart woman like Vanessa would go on an American show in the hopes of finding an American husband and then expect him to move countries for her at the end. It just doesn't make much sense to me...and as a person who prefers giving people the benefit of the doubt, I'm choosing to believe that she's not that self-centred and naive. 

[yorklee2]

2 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Except she never expressed said expectation and in fact, when asked before the filming of the season started, because yes, the lead is American, she stated that she would move if she was chosen and fell in love. But that wouldn't make for edited conflict. i

Then why didn't she express any of that in the hot tub conversation with Nick? Yes we don't know what they talk about when the cameras are not around but unless the producers told them to have this super exaggerated conflict scenario than her words and feelings now are quite a bit different. I don't dislike Vanessa but people have a point when they say she should have realistically expected the odds were not in her favor. And that goes for any Canadian contestant.

Thinking about it would anybody realistically expect a different outcome if this were reversed and a Canadian show with a Canadian lead was automatically expected to move to America for a American contestant who knew what they were getting into? Yes there should be compromise but if you go to their country, on their show then it seems to me the balance is already tipped somewhat in the leads favor.

[ribboninthesky1]

29 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Except she never expressed said expectation and in fact, when asked before the filming of the season started, because yes, the lead is American, she stated that she would move if she was chosen and fell in love. But that wouldn't make for good edited conflict. I get that people can only comment on what's shown in the episode but even then, I don't think we ever saw Vanessa say she would never move. I really think the discussion was merely to acknowledge if it's something Nick would ever even consider or if it's solely on her to make that change.

So, I'm supposed to go off something Vanessa said before the season started filming?  What in the world? I mean, fine, you disagree. But I think being shown having the conversation about Nick's willingness to move to Canada implies some kind of expectation.  Otherwise, why even discuss it? If you're fine with moving to the US, and you came on a US show with a US lead...why are you even trying to gauge the lead's willingness to live in Canada? If he brought it up, that's one thing, but SHE brought it to the conversation. I will continue to discuss what happened on the episode, since that is entirely fair and on topic. 

Quote

Then why didn't she express any of that in the hot tub conversation with Nick? Yes we don't know what they talk about when the cameras are not around but unless the producers told them to have this super exaggerated conflict scenario than her words and feelings now are quite a bit different. I don't dislike Vanessa but people have a point when they say she should have realistically expected the odds were not in her favor. And that goes for any Canadian contestant.

Exactly.  I don't delve too deeply into what's not been shown, as it's impossible for me to know what was left on the cutting room floor. But we saw Vanessa pose the question to Nick - her mouth said the words.  This was not a voiceover, or ITM.  She asked him. I mean, good grief, now we can't even discuss what's actually shown on the show? 

Edited March 9, 2017 by ribboninthesky1

[truthaboutluv]

2 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

So, I'm supposed to go off something Vanessa said before the season started filming?  What in the world? I mean, fine, you disagree. But I think being shown having the conversation about Nick's willingness to move to Canada implies some kind of expectation.  Otherwise, why even discuss it? If you're fine with moving to the US, and you came on a US show with a US lead...why are you even trying to gauge the lead's willingness to live in Canada? If he brought it up, that's one thing, but SHE brought it to the conversation. I will continue to discuss what happened on the episode, since that it entirely fair and on topic. 

Fair enough. And based on the episode, I actually didn't feel like she was saying she would never move but was simply asking if it was something he would consider. Yes, maybe it's unrealistic to come on a US show for an American lead and not expect to you alone would have to move but in a real relationship, if we pretend for a second this is what this is supposed to be, would it really be so unreasonable to discuss the possibility on both sides? YMMV of course. 

eta: By the way, this is all moot if Nick ends up choosing Raven although I'm guessing she would have to move too since I certainly don't see Nick moving to Hoxie, Arkansas.

Edited March 9, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[ribboninthesky1]

But I never wrote that Vanessa would never move to the US.  My comment was:

55 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

That said, I've no sympathy for Vanessa signing on for a show in the US, with a US lead, and having any expectation that said lead would move to Canada. Girl, bye.     

That's it.  You interpreted that as me stating that Vanessa would never move.  As for a real relationship - filming this show doesn't mimic real relationships in the slightest for me.  What happens afterwards, sure.  We'll see what happens next week.    

[1992austenlover]

1 minute ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

If you're fine with moving to the US, and you came on a US show with a US lead...why are you even trying to gauge the lead's willingness to live in Canada? If he brought it up, that's one thing, but SHE brought it to the conversation.

My theory is that the main reason why she brought that up was to try to gauge Nick's level of commitment to the relationship. I don't want to say that she was testing him in that moment...but I think that she was curious to learn his response. Whether or not she was satisfied with his answer is unclear but she did follow up by telling Nick that she was in love with him so do with that what you will lol. I don't know Vanessa but I do remember her family speaking about how selfless she is in relationships (and how she sacrificed her hopes and dreams in the past) which--though  kind of contradictory to how she is being portrayed on the show--makes it seem like she is the kind of person who would be willing to move for a man if the love is real and deep enough for her. But again, it's all very confusing. Like I said earlier, it's very difficult to gauge what is real and what is edited drama on this show. 

[yorklee2]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

I get that people can only comment on what's shown in the episode but even then, I don't think we ever saw Vanessa say she would never move.

But she did say she would never compromise on Sunday dinners with her family. That's about as close as you can get without actually saying it. Unless she would move but then expect them to fly from said location to Canada every Sunday. Again that's not realistic expectations.

[ribboninthesky1]

1 hour ago, 1992austenlover said:

My theory is that the main reason why she brought that up was to try to gauge Nick's level of commitment to the relationship. I don't want to say that she was testing him in that moment...but I think that she was curious to learn his response. Whether or not she was satisfied with his answer is unclear but she did follow up by telling Nick that she was in love with him so do with that what you will lol. I don't know Vanessa but I do remember her family speaking about how selfless she is in relationships (and how she sacrificed her hopes and dreams in the past) which--though  kind of contradictory to how she is being portrayed on the show--makes it seem like she is the kind of person who would be willing to move for a man if the love is real and deep enough for her. But again, it's all very confusing. Like I said earlier, it's very difficult to gauge what is real and what is edited drama on this show. 

Different perspectives, for sure.  I don't think she was satisfied with his answer.  She asked him about moving, and he responded that he couldn't see himself in Canada.  I don't like Vanessa, so I don't want to give her the benefit of the doubt. But if I did, I would still believe that once he gave his answer, that should have been it.  Yet, she pressed further, wanting to know why he couldn't see himself in Canada.  And that's where she annoyed me - why would it matter if you're fine with moving to the US? If Vanessa was the lead, and asking Nick those questions? Totally reasonable.  In this context, no. 

I don't even like Nick, yet I find myself siding with him in the conversations I've seen because Vanessa often conveys some variation of defensive, accusatory, or stern when she's talking to him.  Perhaps it's a subconscious thing.  Still, it bugs.  ETA: It's also tiring, and probably projection on my part, but even Nick looked tired while they were talking. 

In this context, I don't believe the edit was misleading.         

Edited March 9, 2017 by ribboninthesky1

[1992austenlover]

32 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

Different perspectives, for sure.  I don't think she was satisfied with his answer.  She asked him about moving, and he responded that he couldn't see himself in Canada.  I don't like Vanessa, so I don't want to give her the benefit of the doubt. But if I did, I would still believe that once he gave his answer, that should have been it.  Yet, she pressed further, wanting to know why he couldn't see himself in Canada.  And that's where she annoyed me - why would it matter if you're fine with moving to the US? If Vanessa was the lead, and asking Nick those questions? Totally reasonable.  In this context, no. 

I don't even like Nick, yet I find myself siding with him in the conversations I've seen because Vanessa often conveys some variation of defensive, accusatory, or stern when she's talking to him.  Perhaps it's a subconscious thing.  Still, it bugs.  ETA: It's also tiring, and probably projection on my part, but even Nick looked tired while they were talking. 

In this context, I don't believe the edit was misleading.         

Yeah, Vanessa definitely has an aggressive personality that's not for everyone, that's for sure. In a lot of ways, she reminds me so much of Andi Dorfman--just in their communication styles and the way they carry themselves during serious conversations. Vanessa can come across as a little combative and intimidating but I think it's because she's a very passionate person who is not afraid to speak her mind and who is very serious when it comes to things that are extremely important to her (such as their relationship). Personally, I would find it exhausting to be in a relationship with someone like Vanessa because she seems to be one of those people who give so much of themselves in a relationship and expects so much in return. That being said, I pretty much described the kind of relationship that Nick said that he was looking for and I think that Vanessa ticks a lot of the boxes for him: she is smart, beautiful, passionate and sophisticated but she also has a challenging personality that will surely never bore him and for better or worse, she will always keep him on his toes. I do agree that Nick always looks a little tired during those serious conversations, though. They have a very interesting dynamic. 

[backformore]

I thought Vanessa was saying that compromise is important in a relationship, and that each person has to be clear on things they absolutely WON'T compromise on.  That's a good conversation to have - we'll have to compromise on SOME things, but not on THESE things.   

I thought the "traditional vs not"  conversation was choppy, and because Sunday family time was mentioned, I wondered if it was more about religion, but the editors didn't want to go there.  Because it didn't make sense to me, every family has "traditions".  A traditional family, without any other context, usually means a husband-wife,  man is king of castle,  works, woman stays home, cooks,  and raises kids.  Maybe that's what she meant, I have no clue.

  I don't think Vanessa saying sunday family dinners are important to her meant that she HAS to have dinner every week with her family.  She said something about traditions she wouldn't compromise on -  but it really wasn't clear which part of "traditional"  she meant. Maybe not living together before marriage?

[waving feather]

Hehe, all these debate about who is moving where, when they might break up after Nick finished DWTS. 

No one needs to move anywhere then.

Edited March 9, 2017 by waving feather

[yorklee2]

57 minutes ago, backformore said:

I thought Vanessa was saying that compromise is important in a relationship, and that each person has to be clear on things they absolutely WON'T compromise on.  That's a good conversation to have - we'll have to compromise on SOME things, but not on THESE things.   

I thought the "traditional vs not"  conversation was choppy, and because Sunday family time was mentioned, I wondered if it was more about religion, but the editors didn't want to go there.  Because it didn't make sense to me, every family has "traditions".  A traditional family, without any other context, usually means a husband-wife,  man is king of castle,  works, woman stays home, cooks,  and raises kids.  Maybe that's what she meant, I have no clue.

  I don't think Vanessa saying sunday family dinners are important to her meant that she HAS to have dinner every week with her family.  She said something about traditions she wouldn't compromise on -  but it really wasn't clear which part of "traditional"  she meant. Maybe not living together before marriage?

What she said was fairly plain spoken to me and I took it literally like most would do I think. Unless she was lying. They were talking about compromises and Nick said:

Is there anything that you would never compromise on? Her answer was yes. He seemed surprised and asked her what that was. And she said Sunday dinners with her family. They talked some more about it but I don't ever remember her saying anything suggesting she would compromise or relent even a little.

So the only other way I can get around that obvious statement is to say that her and Nick had already worked this out behind the cameras and production made this big completely fabricated conversation for the cameras. Yes the show edits, splices and dices but that's all they talked about in the hot tub and then continued it on the evening portion. There was so much dialogue on the subject that it's hard to believe it was all fabricated and edited. So it's either fabricated and she lied or she meant what she said. Pretty simple to me.

Edited March 10, 2017 by yorklee2

[truthaboutluv]

3 minutes ago, waving feather said:

Hehe, all these debate about who is moving where, when they might break up after Nick finished DWTS. 

No one needs to move anywhere then.

Or he may not have even picked her. I do find it funny how Raven's being picked doesn't even seem to be a consideration.

[waving feather]

Just now, truthaboutluv said:

Or he may not have even picked her. I do find it funny how Raven's being picked doesn't even seem to be a consideration.

Raven and Nick has no chemistry whatsoever and very awkward conversations.

"Do you have fun?"

"I had lots of fun"

"Which is your favorite part?"

"All of it."

I can't imagine Nick picking her.

[yorklee2]

5 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Or he may not have even picked her. I do find it funny how Raven's being picked doesn't even seem to be a consideration.

Boy wouldn't that be the shows time to lay a complete stunner on everyone! They would love that. It would probably even stun Raven.

Edited March 10, 2017 by yorklee2

[truthaboutluv]

17 minutes ago, waving feather said:

Raven and Nick has no chemistry whatsoever and very awkward conversations.

"Do you have fun?"

"I had lots of fun"

"Which is your favorite part?"

"All of it."

I can't imagine Nick picking her.

Well I don't think he picked her either but you have to admit it's a little funny how the conversation is solely on how he and Vanessa have no shot of lasting post-show when we haven't even actually seen him pick her. Like poor Raven is a complete non-entity.

 

Quote

Boy wouldn't that be the shows time to lay a complete stunner on everyone! 

I actually think the show's own editing is making it clear Nick doesn't pick Raven, because in the last two episodes they've been trying to really drive the idea that things between them is just so easy and fun and see how simple and happy it is. While he and Vanessa are all stress, serious talks, etc. If you go by the edit, it actually does seem like he'll pick Raven and I've seen plenty of comments online from people who think he will pick her. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[violet and green]

29 minutes ago, waving feather said:

Raven and Nick has no chemistry whatsoever and very awkward conversations.

Those little peck kisses! I mean, he may be lying on top of her, but he gives her a tentative peck!

[yorklee2]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

If you go by the edit, it actually does seem like he'll pick Raven and I've seen plenty of comments online from people who think he will pick her. 

I don't think he will pick her but he might be better off if he did. I'm beginning to think that he's not deep down serious about any of them. If that were the case then Raven's fun drama free personality would be much better for him at the moment. She's not a intellectual sure but she's smarter than most people give her credit for. I mean she is a business owner not a chicken enthusiast. I saw a deleted scene somewhere online of one on one time between them. They were sitting on a bed and Raven had the bottom of her legs casually across his lap. Nick was rubbing her calf area but the more they talked his hands kept riding higher and higher to the point where he was in the thigh area. The look on his face said it all. A commentator observed, "wow it's like he's totally unaware of the cameras. I was looking any minute for him to grab her groin." I noticed on their last date that same look again when they were in the pub and he was pulling her closer to him. I say that to say for those who don't think there's chemistry between them, maybe not so fast. I mean he didn't take her to F2 for nothing. That's why I wouldn't completely rule out that they didn't have sex in the fantasy suite.

Vanessa is a classic Italian beauty and there's intense chemistry between them. I really liked her in the beginning and even pulled for her. But I hate a bossy, overbearing attitude and the more that emerged from her I backed off somewhat. If he picks her and they can work out the logistics than good for them. It just seems like if that be the case there's going to be a lot of storm clouds ahead and I can see that wearing down Nick quickly. We've already seen where he's made not so optimistic comments in saying he would never move from America.

I think he will pick Vanessa but whoever he picks I don't think it looks good for either that he would choose to run off and do DWTS instead of using that time to bond with them.

Edited March 10, 2017 by yorklee2

[Wandering Snark]

51 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

I say that to say for those who don't think there's chemistry between them, maybe not so fast. I mean he didn't take her to F2 for nothing.

Great post. Even though I like Raven I will admit that while she's not "winning" this thing she not as far behind Vanessa as most people make her out to be, like she has zero chance. He let go a lot of women in order to keep Raven the whole duration. We've never seen a time of them together when they both haven't been laughing and smiling. That's worth something. She has a kind of laid back charm and as I've said seems to have a 'slow to warm up to' tendancy which could also be why a lot of people haven't taken her as a serious competitor, but she is there for a reason. Nick likes her being there. I don't think she's the final one but she's not horribly out of place in his final two either.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Wandering Snark

[truthaboutluv]

52 minutes ago, Wandering Snark said:

Nick likes her being there.

Well I assume he liked her and I don’t think anyone thinks otherwise. Saying I don’t really see great chemistry and connection between Nick and Raven doesn’t mean I think he didn’t feel anything for her. I’m sure Nick did enjoy spending time with and hanging around Raven because she seems like a fun and laid back person. And yeah, their relationship probably was fairly chill and easy, which is all great.

I just personally haven’t seen anything resembling any kind of real passion between them that would convince me they are in love (even Bachelor bubble love) and even crazier would get engaged. But let’s face it, chemistry is subjective so I’m sure others do see a great connection between them.

I will also add that I do think there are some red flags with Nick and Raven that I feel doesn’t really get mentioned as much, probably because most people are positive he won’t pick her. But I do think the fact that Raven apparently only got out of that relationship with her ex six months prior to coming on the Bachelor is suspect.

Quote

Nick was rubbing her calf area but the more they talked his hands kept riding higher and higher to the point where he was in the thigh area. 

To be fair, that seems to be Nick’s thing to the point that some have called him out on being a little creepy because of it. He did this with Rachel, Kristina and hell even Whitney, moments before he basically dumped her and said there was nothing between them.

Edited March 10, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[yorklee2]

56 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

To be fair, that seems to be Nick’s thing to the point that some have called him out on being a little creepy because of it. He did this with Rachel, Kristina and hell even Whitney, moments before he basically dumped her and said there was nothing between them.

Look I like Raven so I'm sure people think that's coloring my perspective but as a women who knows what those looks from a man mean I'm telling you that those times with Rachel, Kristina and Whitney were nothing compared to those caresses he was giving Raven. The only time I  saw that look was with Vanessa and Raven. Which makes sense that they're the F2. Sure it's probably mostly physical but I don't think it's fair to say that there is no chemistry between them and just blindly dismiss her. I really don't know why people dislike her so much. Unlike Vanessa she got along great with all the other women. That speaks volumes to me. She strikes me as the friend that everybody would love to hang out with who although is fairly smart needs occasional guidance when it comes to men and learning the difference between being blindly honest and subtlety honest. I give Vanessa her due and although I know she's not everybody's cup of tea why can't people give Raven hers?  

Edited March 10, 2017 by yorklee2

[sekay87]

  13 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

To be fair, that seems to be Nick’s thing to the point that some have called him out on being a little creepy because of it. He did this with Rachel, Kristina and hell even Whitney, moments before he basically dumped her and said there was nothing between them.

Look I like Raven so I'm sure people think that's coloring my perspective but as a women who knows what those looks from a man mean I'm telling you that those times with Rachel, Kristina and Whitney were nothing compared to those caresses he was giving Raven. The only time I  saw that look was with Vanessa and Raven. Which makes sense that they're the F2. Sure it's probably mostly physical but I don't think it's fair to say that there is no chemistry between them and just blindly dismiss her. I really don't know why people dislike her so much. Unlike Vanessa she got along great with all the other women. That speaks volumes to me. She strikes me as the friend that everybody would love to hang out with who although is fairly smart needs occasional guidance when it comes to men and learning the difference between being blindly honest and subtlety honest. I give Vanessa her due and although I know she's not everybody's cup of tea why can't people give Raven hers?  

I agree with you. I'm personally not a Vanessa or Raven fan, but I can sense that he definitely feels for both of them. I do see a deeper connection with Vanessa and him than I do with him and Raven, only because he seems to tackle deeper compatibility issues in conversation with Vanessa than he does with Raven. I think it's blindingly obvious that Vanessa was his favorite from the start, and that she was set to win this fairly early on, but I do also think he enjoys and loves being around Raven. I just see that he considers it a more casual, fun, lighthearted relationship and less something that he says any sort of future with. With Kaitlyn and Andi he took things to a deeper place (particularly with Andi) and he's doing that with Vanessa too. I don't see him getting deep with Raven. That is not to say that Raven isn't great or that her and Nick don't have a connection. I just don't see it being one he sees will last.

[yorklee2]

12 minutes ago, sekay87 said:

I agree with you. I'm personally not a Vanessa or Raven fan, but I can sense that he definitely feels for both of them. I do see a deeper connection with Vanessa and him than I do with him and Raven, only because he seems to tackle deeper compatibility issues in conversation with Vanessa than he does with Raven. I think it's blindingly obvious that Vanessa was his favorite from the start, and that she was set to win this fairly early on, but I do also think he enjoys and loves being around Raven. I just see that he considers it a more casual, fun, lighthearted relationship and less something that he says any sort of future with. With Kaitlyn and Andi he took things to a deeper place (particularly with Andi) and he's doing that with Vanessa too. I don't see him getting deep with Raven. That is not to say that Raven isn't great or that her and Nick don't have a connection. I just don't see it being one he sees will last.

Good post. Thank you.

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, sekay87 said:

That is not to say that Raven isn't great or that her and Nick don't have a connection. I just don't see it being one he sees will last.

I agree with everything in your post. He likes them both, honestly, I think he liked them all. Nick loves women, and not just as sex objects but as people. It's one of the things I like most about him. But I will always see Raven as someone he might date casually. Partly because she comes off so young and pretty immature, but mostly because the most real conversation they had was about laundry. haha. She's just a fun fling which is great, those can be wonderful, but I think people are saying he's not actually considering her for a serious relationship.

Vanessa isn't my favorite person, but I do believe that he fell hard and fast for her in a more serious way. I think he is testing whether they will be able to have a lasting relationship. Judging by Nick's behavior with the other women, I think that he kept Raven along because she won't be as devastated when he dumps her. She doesn't seem to take this seriously and I don't believe she is seriously in love with Nick. I think she is "show" in love with him, that Stockholm syndrome thing they all get, but will get over him in about a week, if it even takes that long. She will enjoy her fame and try to get on other shows.

If Vanessa weren't "the one" I don't think he'd have kept stringing her along this long because she is gonna take it hard if she gets dumped. I think she really fell for him.

[yorklee2]

5 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

She will enjoy her fame and try to get on other shows.

Good points. For the most part I agree with everything you said but in all honesty how can people judge her for something she may or may not do when apparently Nick is doing the same thing. I really liked him throughout most of the show and believed he was honestly looking for something serious until he decided to go do DWTS. Now he may be serious and of course that's his choice but that looks bad on him I think in terms of showing just how serious he was with any of these woman.

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but was it you that said you didn't like the fact that Raven made "team Raven" t-shirts? See I don't see anything wrong with that. Apparently from a lot of her Instagram posts she has a lot of friends and she does run a fashion boutique so I can see her friends wanting her to make those for them because they wanted to support the hometown girl and with her shop it would have been a easy process.

Now I may give her a pass with a slight side eye if she shows up on BIP but the true test of whether or not she's just basically fame whoring and wasn't really serious is if she continually shows up on the franchise or other reality shows. Kind of like....Nick. Vanessa does seem like she would be more heartbroken if he didn't pick her but apparently she did some earlier shows on Canadian tv so I wouldn't completely rule out that her intentions are 100% pure either. We can only speculate about any of this. Who he picks, will they last, will they go on to do more and more reality tv? Only time will tell.

[Mabinogia]

10 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but was it you that said you didn't like the fact that Raven made "team Raven" t-shirts?

That was me. I admit Raven was not my favorite from the start. I find her incredibly phony and put her on a level with Liz as far as coming on the show 100% to get exposure. That's fine if that's what you want from the show. I don't believe there are "wrong reasons" to be on the show. Each person is there for the reason they think is right. But this also means I never once took her seriously as a contestant, just like I never took Liz seriously and certainly never took Corinne seriously.

Nick is a fame whore too, at this point, they all are. So is Vanessa and everyone else who participates in this farce because the only other option is that they are fucking morons for thinking this is a real process. I just like some of the fame whore more than others.

[yorklee2]

10 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I just like some of the fame whore more than others.

I know, right? Funny.

[MsPH]

1 hour ago, yorklee2 said:

Good points. For the most part I agree with everything you said but in all honesty how can people judge her for something she may or may not do when apparently Nick is doing the same thing. I really liked him throughout most of the show and believed he was honestly looking for something serious until he decided to go do DWTS. Now he may be serious and of course that's his choice but that looks bad on him I think in terms of showing just how serious he was with any of these woman.

I don't see why to be honest. DWTS pays really really well. I don't see why anyone would turn it down unless the thought of dancing in public makes them hurl. Nick seems to enjoy dancing, so it's a no-brainer really. If I was engaged to him and planning on starting a family, I'd be forcing him to do it, since it's a nice nest egg. It's not often you get the chance to make hundreds of thousands in a few weeks. IMO Nick and his F1 would have to feel pretty insecure about their relationship to turn it down, in which case all the more reason to not waste the opportunity over a doomed relationship. But that's just my opinion on the matter. Rather DWTS than a trainwreck show like Ben and Lauren.

[1992austenlover]

5 minutes ago, MsPH said:

I don't see why to be honest. DWTS pays really really well. I don't see why anyone would turn it down unless the thought of dancing in public makes them hurl. Nick seems to enjoy dancing, so it's a no-brainer really. If I was engaged to him and planning on starting a family, I'd be forcing him to do it, since it's a nice nest egg. It's not often you get the chance to make hundreds of thousands in a few weeks. IMO Nick and his F1 would have to feel pretty insecure about their relationship to turn it down, in which case all the more reason to not waste the opportunity over a doomed relationship. But that's just my opinion on the matter. Rather DWTS than a trainwreck show like Ben and Lauren.

I completely agree with this. I think that the reason why people criticize Nick for doing DWTS is because they think that it's a foregone conclusion that he and his chosen one are already broken up/on the verge of breaking up when, in reality, we have no clue what the state of their relationship truly is. I think that if he and his F1 have spent the last months building on their connection and foundation and are in a good place in the relationship then I don't see why Nick shouldn't go on the show for the very reasons that are listed above. 

[yorklee2]

3 minutes ago, MsPH said:

I don't see why to be honest. DWTS pays really really well. I don't see why anyone would turn it down unless the thought of dancing in public makes them hurl. Nick seems to enjoy dancing, so it's a no-brainer really. If I was engaged to him and planning on starting a family, I'd be forcing him to do it, since it's a nice nest egg. It's not often you get the chance to make hundreds of thousands in a few weeks. IMO Nick and his F1 would have to feel pretty insecure about their relationship to turn it down, in which case all the more reason to not waste the opportunity over a doomed relationship. But that's just my opinion on the matter. Rather DWTS than a trainwreck show like Ben and Lauren.

I think why many people feel that way is the cumulative total of all the times he's been on reality shows. I did say that he might still be serious even with going on. I didn't realize that DWTS paid so much. Money certainly does a lot of talking but were I his pick I would still have to question all his time and commitment being put into filming another show when you have a new fragile relationship to nourish. Some things are more important than money. You say that you would make him if you were his pick but the thing is we don't know that his pick had any say so in his decision. He could (and more than likely did) make the sole decision himself.

[truthaboutluv]

36 minutes ago, 1992austenlover said:

I completely agree with this. I think that the reason why people criticize Nick for doing DWTS is because they think that it's a foregone conclusion that he and his chosen one are already broken up/on the verge of breaking up when, in reality, we have no clue what the state of their relationship truly is.

I think it's also because there's this myth around the show that one, everyone does it and two, they all break up when they do it, which is of course not even close to being true. It's only been 5 people from the franchise to do DWTS and the one who did it twice, Melissa, is still happily married to her husband. And of course Trista and Sean were both fine in their relationships after doing the show.

I have said that I firmly believe Jake and Vienna and Chris and Whitney's breakups had nothing do with DWTS and everything to do with their relationship being more or less DOA from the start. And I think this will be the same with Nick - if he and his F1 breakup after DWTS, it will not be that that killed it. The relationship was likely already over. 

I also think there's also the notion by some Bachelor fans that DWTS means showmance and inappropriate behavior/dancing with the lead and whichever Pro they have, which is also not true. But I do put some of the blame of that one on Sean, which is another reason I can't stand him. I remember after the season he was on, he more or less slut shamed Peta, who was his Pro and almost insinuated that she was sort of hitting on him with her inappropriate costumes and dance moves.

And I remember some Bachelor fans who were fans of him and Catherine really bought into that. Interestingly Nick also has Peta as his Pro. But I can't imagine anyone will be accusing a woman who had a baby six weeks ago and is engaged herself, of trying to throw herself at Nick. 

[Mabinogia]

How long a commitment is DWTS really? If they intend on spending the rest of their lives together, I don't see the problem taking an opportunity that will never come up again. If this is, indeed, how he plans on earning his living, then he needs to keep himself in the public eye. So long as they both understand, I don't see the harm. It's only a danger if they don't communicate or if she is against it and he does it anyway.