Dance Moms in the Media

[Hook75]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWZGAExj-es

 

Maddie is in the new Sia's video.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Hook75

[serenitynow]

That's messed up.

[cali1981]

That's messed up.

It really seems age inappropriate for a pre-teen like Maddie.  Of course her idiot mother must have thought it was just a spiffy idea.

[NextIteration]

I'm not sure what I think about it.

 

Clearly it's a struggle of some sort.

 

And it's representing a dysfunctional adult/child relationship.

 

I don't think I'd have ever let my 12 yr old do something like that back in the day.

 

I'm torn.

[NikSac]

Wow. I couldn't even finish watching that. I stopped it halfway through, so maybe it improved after that, but I had to hit stop when I felt like I was watching some sort of kiddie porn and started feeling ill.

[Absolom]

I always doubted that Melissa had much good sense.  It's official for me now - she has none.

[TomGirl]

That video made my skin crawl. This is a child, people! Somebody call CPS please!

[tessa]

I was first put off that Shia LaBeof was in it - lately he's not the most stable guy, http://www.eonline.com/news/509148/bill-murray-explains-shia-labeouf-s-problem-he-s-got-a-funny-name-he-probably-got-beat-up-a-lot, and a lot of viewers on youtube felt a child porn aspect to it. I also was put off by again the costumes they wore and I guess I just don't get the new artistry in either the song or video. The song is depressing and the video like a B rated movie. I like videos that tell the story - I want to be entertained by a video - not have to sit there and think about it.

[NikSac]

I was first put off that Shia LaBeof was in it - lately he's not the most stable guy, http://www.eonline.com/news/509148/bill-murray-explains-shia-labeouf-s-problem-he-s-got-a-funny-name-he-probably-got-beat-up-a-lot, and a lot of viewers on youtube felt a child porn aspect to it. I also was put off by again the costumes they wore and I guess I just don't get the new artistry in either the song or video. The song is depressing and the video like a B rated movie. I like videos that tell the story - I want to be entertained by a video - not have to sit there and think about it.

 

Tessa I'm with you, I apparently don't get it either. I noticed a bunch of the YouTube commenters were saying that only someone who's already perverted would see the pedophile aspect to it but I have to disagree. The girl's crawling across the stage on all 4s in a nude leotard looking like she should be grabbing a stripper pole any minute. Maybe I'm just too old to appreciate the 'art' of it?

[Diane Mars]

Not so much more "disturbing" than Chandelier, IMHO

 

... But I'm not sure, regarding Sia, that producing that kind of videos is better than a good psychotherapy, regarding the mess she seems in the need to tell and... evacuate, if that makes sense.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Diane Mars

[NextIteration]

I don't see anything perverted in it at all - just disturbing.  I don't have a problem with the costuming either.

 

Diane Mars - that's the thing, a lot of Sia's videos are depressing, sad, or thought provoking.

 

All that said, unlike Chandelier this time I really feel like it's inappropriate because of Maddie's age.

 

eta: holy wow, that video went from 500k last night when I looked to 3.5m this morning.

 

Sia made a statement about the triggering effects of the video.

 

Maddie will join Sia on Saturday Night Live this week as well.

Edited January 8, 2015 by NextIteration

[Rhondinella]

The dance was Ok, I guess. I agree the costumes might have made it a bit on the icky side, but I don't know I'd say it's approaching child porn.  Honestly I'm more concerned about the fact that anyone would let their child spend a whole day (or more) working that closely with Shia LaBeouf.

[NikSac]

Not so much more "disturbing" than Chandelier, IMHO

 

... But I'm not sure, regarding Sia, that producing that kind of videos is better than a good psychotherapy, regarding the mess she seems in the need to tell and... evacuate, if that makes sense.

 

I guess what made it more disturbing than Chandelier for me was the cage and the fact that she was in it with the grown man (and who the man was didn't help).

 

You're right, maybe it's good psychotherapy for Sia, and maybe others who've been through similar things.  That makes me think though, it is really fair to work through one's psychological messes via a child's dancing? I realize Maddie's growing up but this just seems way too adult for her in a number of ways.

Edited January 8, 2015 by NikSac

[NextIteration]

it is really fair to work through one's psychological messes via a child's dancing? I realize Maddie's growing up but this just seems way too adult for her in a number of ways.

 

That's the heart of the matter for me, that video wasn't about dancing at all, and there wasn't much in it.  So why use Maddie?  Except for the fact that Sia has chosen her as her stand in - and in this situation, it's inappropriate, for me anyways.

[Gianthambeast]

omg.  Ewwwwww....I didn't even know that she had done that...WTF is Melissa thinking...

[Rhondinella]

I saw on Yahoo that Cathy has said that the video is inappropriate and questioning Melissa's fitness as a parent.

 

 

Well, if Cathy says a mother is unfit, it must be true. *Eyeroll*  I mean, I'm not supporting Melissa here necessarily, but like Cathy is going to win any mother of the year awards.

[sofiah]

I thought the video was creepy, but not in any sexual way.  Maybe I'm very "liberal" but the dance to me wasn't sexual, the lyrics weren't sexual and a nude leotard to me isn't provocative.

 

I thought it was a pretty clear, almost cheesy, metaphor for some sort of troubled relationship within mental illness (seemed father and daughter-y), where in the end the Maddie character is able to escape while the father is stuck despite her efforts.  I don't know anything about Sia, but I'd venture to say this is about her father or something like that.

[Lemons]

Sia wrote that the video is about her two personalities battling each other, or something like that.  This video really shows Maddie's performance skills.  It's too bad that people see something sinister that's just not there. 

[KatWay]

I thought the video showed a great performance by both even though I can't stand Shia LaBeouf and don't care about Maddie one way or the other. I don't see what's inappropriate about it - there is not even a hint of anything sexual. I read Sia's statement, prior to that I thought they were meant to symbolise her twisted relationship with her mentally ill father, though perhaps that's simply part of her warring personalities and that's how she meant it. I actually thought it was a really moving performance - first the child runs away in anger/fear but comes back for her father to help him after all, but try as he (and she) might, he just can't escape his prison.

[RedheadZombie]

It creeps me out but I can't look at it objectively.  I feel Melissa's a shitty mother and she would pimp out Maddie in a flash, so that affects my opinion.  I'm disturbed that Shia is only wearing a nude panty, and Maddie is (again) in a nude leotard.  The first video generated controversy, and I feel this is a cheap stunt to get that publicity again.  What probably bothers me the most is Maddie's body.  She's twelve.  When I was twelve, I was 5'5" and wore a B-cup.  She really is a pedophile's perfect type, and I can't separate that knowledge from my opinion of the video.  I just wonder if they would have still wanted Maddie if she had a growth spurt, and looked like an average twelve year old.

[taragel]

Maddie talks to EW about the new video: 

 

http://music-mix.ew.com/2015/01/09/sia-maddie-ziegler-chandelier-elastic-heart/?hootPostID=3960868ee388159dd7671fe3b481d610

 

I found her pretty charming and level-headed, I must say.

[NextIteration]

@gimipizzauoldtroll thank you for so beautifully articulating what I failed to!

 

That's my problem with it in a nutshell.

[Fostersmom]

I only tend to see bits and pieces of Dance Moms when they show a marathon or if I'm watching something before I go to bed and notice it's on, I will flip to it while there's a commercial on the show I'm really watching. I am a huge pop culture whore though so I did just look the video up on YouTube and I saw the last one too. I think the last one was better, and damn this new song really kind of sucked. It didn't seem overly sexual to me, save the part where he drops down from the top of the cage, legs apart, over her lying on the floor. My bigger issue is if Sia is using Maddie to work through her own mental illness or experience with her father's, I really hope someone is keeping a close eye on what Maddie is hearing and being told while on set. There could be a lot of things being said by Sia that really aren't things that Maddie is capable of processing yet. Shia's age didn't bother me too too much, but his mental health seems shaky at best, was he really the best choice to be Maddie's co-star? She shouldn't have to be the tools for adults to work through their issues. 

[RedheadZombie]

It's Sia's video, but ultimately it's Abby and Melissa's job to protect Maddie. They should know better, they're not clouded by whatever psychological trauma that Sia is supposedly working through.

[KatWay]

I really doubt Maddie was told anything but the choreography and which expression to use when and where. I can't imagine anyone telling a 12yo "and this is where we work through that particular trauma...". It's probably the standard "and here you are pained and fragile" "and here you are conflicted and sad" etc.

The whole thing is probably going over Maddie's head anyways (...and probably Melissa's too, though not for age reasons), it's just a performance for her.

[WelcomeStranger]

What probably bothers me the most is Maddie's body.  She's twelve.  When I was twelve, I was 5'5" and wore a B-cup.  She really is a pedophile's perfect type, and I can't separate that knowledge from my opinion of the video.  I just wonder if they would have still wanted Maddie if she had a growth spurt, and looked like an average twelve year old.

At the age of 12 I was small and flat as Kansas--but then again, I was a gymnast, and not even training nearly as many hours as Maddie is in dance. When girls that age are athletes training more than 20 hours per week, their bodies tend to delay estrogen production. The fact that she hasn't had a growth spurt while Dance Moms is not filming (in contrast to the non-Zeigler girls on the team, who have) is a testament to how hard she's training even during the off-season.

 

For the video itself, I wasn't creeped out so much as confused. Regarding Sia's "warring personalities," were the cage-figures her id vs. ego? And if so, who was the id and who was the ego? Or alternately, did Maddie represent Sia's inner child while whats-his-name was representing the adult? Per that interpretation, wouldn't it have made more sense to use a female adult?

 

>>The whole thing is probably going over Maddie's head anyways (...and probably Melissa's too, though not for age reasons), it's just a performance for her.<<

 

Yeah, this too.

Edited January 10, 2015 by WelcomeStranger

[NextIteration]

At the age of 12 I was small and flat as Kansas--but then again, I was a gymnast, and not even training nearly as many hours as Maddie is in dance. When girls that age are athletes training more than 20 hours per week, their bodies tend to delay estrogen production. The fact that she hasn't had a growth spurt while Dance Moms is not filming (in contrast to the non-Zeigler girls on the team, who have) is a testament to how hard she's training even during the off-season.

 

This is absolutely not a hard and fast rule.  My daughter danced 20 hours a week pretty much year round with summer intensives from the age of 9 and grew breasts, curved out and got her period when she was 11.  She was done growing by the age or 13 at 5"5'.  Take a look at Kalani.

Edited January 10, 2015 by NextIteration

[WelcomeStranger]

No doubt it isn't true for everyone. Both Maddie and Mackenzie are naturally small late bloomers. Kalani's maturation happened quite fast, in between her last appearance on Abby's Ultimate Dance Competition and her first appearance on Dance Moms (a few months later?).

 

I don't know how many hours a week Kalani puts in at her real studio, but we've all heard the rumors of Maddie dancing 7 or 8 hours a day--basically the schedule of an elite-level gymnast. I highly doubt that much training in any physical activity does a growing body any good.

[Absolom]

That's true.  Overtraining at a young age is not likely to give those mothers the results that they want.  It's more likely to lead to early burnout and a lifelong issue with one or more joints.    

[NextIteration]

@gimipizzauoldtroll - one of my daughter's peers, that trained and danced more than any of the girls in her peer cohort at the one highly competitive studio that my daughter was at for some time has sustained many, and alarming injuries that required scary surgeries.  She's still dancing and doing very well, was in the Dance Spirit cover finals, won NYCDA National Outstanding Sr, etc, but I still think that she's at risk for getting another injury that will just put a finale to her dance career.  I think it has much to do with over-training from the age of about 6.  She's very bright so I know that that she will always have a future regardless and we'll always hope the best for her.

 

That's what makes me worry about Maddie and Mac, I hope that whatever home school program they are in, provides academic challenge so that they have an out if they get injured.

 

I know quite a few of the kids that the lass did summer intensives with home schooled so that they had the flexibility required for the prominent ballet school in my area for training, rehearsals and performances.  I would have never made that choice personally, academics always came first in our family.  Even as a dance major in college, she's also pre-med.

[cali1981]

I really doubt Maddie was told anything but the choreography and which expression to use when and where. I can't imagine anyone telling a 12yo "and this is where we work through that particular trauma...". It's probably the standard "and here you are pained and fragile" "and here you are conflicted and sad" etc.

The whole thing is probably going over Maddie's head anyways (...and probably Melissa's too, though not for age reasons), it's just a performance for her.

You have probably hit on a key issue.  Maddie is a 12 year old who has been flattered beyond normal reason and isn't capable of making appropriate judgements in regard to her opportunities.  The criminals are Melissa and Abby who are nothing more that shameless child exploiters.  Melissa is, to me, an unfit parent and one does wonder whether Maddie's actual father has any say or rights where her upbringing is concerned.  Maybe he's contractually in on the payday and can't really object to what's going on.  If not, depending on what the custody terms of the divorce was, he should be vocally and, perhaps, legally be expressing his misgivings about Melissa's decision making abilites and her motives.

[Lemons]

.  I would have never made that choice personally, academics always came first in our family.  Even as a dance major in college, she's also pre-med.

 

Everyone makes different choices depending on what is best for them.  There are other paths to success besides traditional basic academic classes.   Not everyone wants to go the traditional route and that's ok.  On-line high school is becoming more and more common while kids pursue other interests. 

 

It's nice that your daughter has two special interests.  It's almost impossible to do that with a Bachelor of Fine Arts.  A BFA is the route that students should take if they want to dance professionally.  Other dance majors are great for teaching.   Either route is commendable. 

[NextIteration]

Either route is commendable. 

 

You are correct, and if the quality is there home schooling can be more rigorous than traditional school.  I think it's always a balancing act.  Thankfully there are colleges (outside of a conservatory environment) that offer the opportunity to go the BFA route if one chooses that also offer academic rigor, not a lot of them, but they are out there.  Pre-med for her is just an advisory track that makes sure that all the required MCAT science classes get taken.

[tessa]

Of I remember correctly, Maddie's dad said that 1 reason for the break-up was dance - was it the cost, the intensity that Melissa made Maddie persue it?  And lack of growth spurt could be just because Maddie is a late bloomer or genetic. Melissa isn't that tall and often wears heels.

 

I wasn't a fan of the new video - same costume - really abstract choreography - it just didn't hold my interst and I turned it off. I'm not into thought pervoking performances - I just want to be entertained.

[Darknight]

I believe Kurt Maddies dad came to nationals while Melissa went to Florida with her boyfriend. She left her kids with Abby and Gianna (what a negligent parent) Kurt came and was upset Melissa didn't tell him. When Abby saw Kurt come in the dressing room and give Maddie and Mac a hug, Abby went outside and told him he doesn't belong here. That Kurt is ruining Maddies dance career and Abby said that she made Maddie. Kurt expressed that dance caused the breakup of his family. He also wanted Maddie and Mackenzie away from ALDC and promised Abby that he would take his daughters out.

Maddie and Mac are going just late bloomers puberty wise. Maddie hasn't really grown in three years. It's hard to know when she'll change since every child is different

[sofiah]

I doubt Maddie trains anymore then other child "professional" dancers out there -- she just has the added time consuming task of entire days of filming, plus traveling every weekend for a competition.  Thats why she's homeschooled. I'd bet that other dancers, like Autumn Miller, Sophia Lucia, Tate, Kalani (when at her own studio) etc. spend more hours in actual dance class then Maddie does.  It's not like she's in some rigorous ballet school… she's at the ALDC.  Despite what Abby may be selling, at the end of the day it's just a run of the mill local dance studio.  Either way, I think its a little presumptuous to assume reasons why her body is the way it is; when I was 12 I looked just like Maddie and I certainly was not training in any sport.

 

I've been so baffled by the uproar surrounding the Sia video.  This article, while I don't agree with everything said, expresses some of my thoughts:

 

 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/11/sia-video-pop-music-not-paedophilia?CMP=fb_gu

Edited January 11, 2015 by sofiah

[BBDi]

I finally watched the video with Shia La Boeuf and I didn't find anything inappropriate or sexual in it. (And I'm usually pretty quick to complain about sexualization and exploitation of young girls.)  I think the flesh colored outfits on both of them can give a questionable first impression, but as the dance began and unfolded it didn't bother me. It helps that Maddie still has a child's body, of course. To me the flesh-colored leotards in both Sia videos make her look a little like a doll, or an alien, or an embryo or something else abstract, and I can see why it was chosen, if the intent was to have Maddie be kind of abstract, avatar-like stand-in for Sia's childhood (or something).

 

I think Abby is a total See You Next Tuesday and Melissa generally seems to be an imbecile. HOWEVER, at this point I have a lot more faith in the common sense and maturity of Maddie and the other ALDC members than I do in Abby or their moms. I think she is perfectly capable of hearing Sia and/or the choreographer explain the dance and the emotions it's meant to convey in broad strokes and then try to interpret it with her dancing, without having to break it down literally or try to understand it in detail experientially. What I'm trying to say is that it's probably not that different from having Abby giving the girls a scenario like a child being abducted or a carload of teenagers having an accident because someone stops to answer a text or whatever and then trying to convey that through dance.

 

Maddie obviously loves to dance, and when you love to dance, it is the language you use to express yourself. It is probably a thrill to work with different choreographers and I bet it's a lot more enjoyable than dealing with all the emotion-laden fake drama on Dance Moms. She seems to approach these videos as a budding professional dancer and it doesn't seem to me to be particularly exploitative.

 

I think the chief concern with Maddie is not what kind of dancing she's doing but whether she's getting enough grounding in the other aspects of her life so she's not completely screwed if she has a major injury or gets burned out on dance. Or getting unrealistic expectations about her future prospects as a grown-up dancer. That's a whole nother story. In the meantime, she's so lucky to be getting these opportunities and I hope she knows it.

[Rhondinella]

I don't mind you discussing aspects of the video here, but let's move away from posts that are only speculating about dance training schedules, growth spurts, etc. Those discussions can go in other places.  Thanks.

[mrsh]

I guess what made it more disturbing than Chandelier for me was the cage and the fact that she was in it with the grown man (and who the man was didn't help).

You're right, maybe it's good psychotherapy for Sia, and maybe others who've been through similar things. That makes me think though, it is really fair to work through one's psychological messes via a child's dancing? I realize Maddie's growing up but this just seems way too adult for her in a number of ways.

I'm not a huge fan of eithe Maddie or Shia LaBoeuf but am I missing something? Is he a pedophile or accused of it in real life? I know he's had some problems but I don't find him or the video disturbing because of his personal life.

I finally saw the video and thought it was beautiful. I didn't see anything inappropriate save maybe the nude color costumes, but to me it was pretty clearly about a child's rocky relationship with her father. I think to talk about calling CPS is taking it way too far, Melissa is a shitty mom for a lot of reasons but I don't think this video is one of them.

[tessa]

There's an interesting article in the International Business Times that does answer some questions we all have - not sure I can post a link but ut's the ibtimes and you can search for Dance Moms 8 Shocking Facts

[WelcomeStranger]

To me the flesh-colored leotards in both Sia videos make her look a little like a doll, or an alien, or an embryo or something else abstract, and I can see why it was chosen, if the intent was to have Maddie be kind of abstract, avatar-like stand-in for Sia's childhood (or something).

 

 

 

I'm attempting to use the spoiler tag just in case there are West Coasters who haven't seen SNL yet.....

 

BBDi you may be dead on about what Sia is going for, based on the choice of the dancer who partnered Maddie on the SNL stage tonight. I'm 99% certain the adult was the girl who auditioned for So You Think You Can Dance this past season--the one who was born with the alopecia areata who had lovely technique and whom Nigel said moved like an alien. What a sad spoiler this is, since I cannot find that dancer's audition online and hence can't even remember her name!

[NextIteration]

Franchesca Bass

 

Why she didn't do something more like this in the first place is beyond my comprehension, because it better conveys her message, it's not as disturbing and there is actual dancing.

 

Gorgeous performance.

 

I wonder if it's the same choreographer?

Edited January 19, 2015 by NextIteration

[NikSac]

Franchesca Bass

 

Why she didn't do something more like this in the first place is beyond my comprehension, because it better conveys her message, it's not as disturbing and there is actual dancing.

 

Gorgeous performance.

 

I wonder if it's the same choreographer?

 

Wow that was WAY better. Very beautiful performance.

[WelcomeStranger]

Franchesca Bass

 

Why she didn't do something more like this in the first place is beyond my comprehension, because it better conveys her message, it's not as disturbing and there is actual dancing.

 

Gorgeous performance.

 

I wonder if it's the same choreographer?

Thank you, NextIteration, for finding Franchesca Bass online. Far fewer of the SYTYCD S11 audtions lasted very long on YouTube this year, compared to other seasons.. I felt like the SNL choreography conveyed a different struggle than the cage match video did--beyond the whole weirdness of a well-known adult male actor vs. a child. On SNL the dance didn't feel as animalistic or otherworldly, or something.  Not to say I didn't like it.

[NextIteration]

This is really really old news, but, if anyone is curious where Kelly/Paige's accusations about the kids being exposed to a pedophile choreographer come from, this is it.

 

I wasn't sure where to put this - if it should be moved to the general girls thread, please feel free to move it.

[NextIteration]

One of those links has the youtube of what looks to have been the canned show.

[Law Mom]

Chloe posted this video of her Studio 19 competition dance; looks like Small Jazz.

 

[leighroda]

Wow... That is refreshing to see. One of my pet peeves about the ALDC dances are all the different sections, in dance that's usually a tell-tale sign that the group is not at the same ability because only certain people can perform certain elements. And I'm glad they didn't feature Chloe... Don't get me wrong I love Chloe... But I wouldn't want her to be featured because she is "chloe from dance moms". In fact it goes to show that there does not have to be a lead or featured performer as Abby seems to think.

[crabbypants]

The extent of my dance talent is forgetting choreography 30 seconds after it's taught.  To my untrained eye that looks like a bigger group than what we usually see for ALDC's small group numbers.  How many people make up a small group versus a big group?  Is there a medium group category?

[Law Mom]

It varies, but usually Small Group is 4-9 dancers. Generally, the size divisions are Solos (1 dancer) , Duets/Trios (2-3 dancers), Small Groups (4-9 dancers), Large Groups (10-19 dancers), and Lines (20 or more dancers). However, occasionally 9 fall under Large Groups, or Large Groups may go to 23. Competition companies vary, but there is an advantage to having them all the same because as you see here, this group of 9 would almost always fall under Small, and would be at a disadvantage in Large going up against teams with twice as many girls.