When We Rise (2017) - General Discussion

[Tara Ariano]

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Part 1 of 4. The miniseries about a diverse family of LGBTQ people who helped pioneer the equality movement in the U.S. begins with the social-justice fighters moving to San Francisco after coming out or being outed. There, they join the fledgling LGBTQ movement and set out to change the world.

Premieres Monday, February 27, at 9 PM ET on ABC.

[Tara Ariano]

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Part 2 of 4. In 1978, Cleve, Ken and Roma work together to fight Proposition 6, which would ban gays, lesbians, and their allies from working in California public schools. Later, in 1981, a disease dubbed "gay cancer" begins taking the lives of gay men and IV drug users.

Premieres Wednesday, March 1, at 9 PM ET on ABC.

[Tara Ariano]

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Part 3 of 4. In the early 1990s, Cleve, Ken and Richard each battle HIV/AIDS. Cleve dedicates himself to creating the Names Project AIDS Memorial quilt; and Cecilia helps Ken enter a VA hospital for treatment, but "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" makes it challenging. Later, in 1997, Cleve realizes that he's been pushed aside by modern LGBT rights organizations when they honor the president who signed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and the Defense of Marriage Act over his objections.

Premieres Thursday, March 2, at 9 PM ET on ABC.

[Tara Ariano]

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Conclusion. In 2008, Cleve inspires the younger generation to march on Washington, D.C., to demand LGBTQ equality. Roma, meanwhile, fights for healthcare for all in San Francisco; and Ken strives to get the city to help fund a meal program at one of the first LGBTQ inclusive churches in the nation.

Premieres Friday, March 3, at 9 PM ET on ABC.

[Primetimer]

There's so much to discuss, and it all matters.

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[Shaynaa]

I thought she would actually start with Stonewall so that disappointed me.  Hearing people talk about it wouldn't be the same as seeing it.  I was hoping for a main character who is trans.  I am unclear if we will get more main characters later on.  The trailers kept showing a trans woman and her mother so I hope she's not just a side character.

Also, Clive's dad was a total self hating closet case.  Since Clive was a real person I'm wondering if this was true to life at all.

[MarkBlankenship]

I thought she would actually start with Stonewall so that disappointed me.  Hearing people talk about it wouldn't be the same as seeing it.  I was hoping for a main character who is trans.  I am unclear if we will get more main characters later on.  The trailers kept showing a trans woman and her mother so I hope she's not just a side character.

Also, Clive's dad was a total self hating closet case.  Since Clive was a real person I'm wondering if this was true to life at all.

Hi Shaynaa -- I've watched the entire series via screeners, and there is a major trans character. She first appears on night two in a limited way, and on nights three and four, she becomes a big part of the story.

[Irlandesa]

I DVR'd this and was going to save it until the rest of my TV schedule cleared a bit (like maybe as soon as tomorrow night) but I started watching it while I was waiting for something else to finish recording. (Commercial elimination.)  I ended up watching this whole thing.  It was so easily digestible. 

40 minutes ago, Shaynaa said:

I thought she would actually start with Stonewall so that disappointed me.  Hearing people talk about it wouldn't be the same as seeing it.

I've read some interviews with Dustin Lance Black and he said in one (and I'm paraphrasing here) that he noticed there are so many accounts of Stonewall and many are contradictory.  When exploring why that was, someone said to him what Cleve's older lover said to Cleve at the table---that part of the reason there are so many stories is because Stonewall gave them the feeling that they had the right to their own story. So that's why he made the decision to make Stonewall an inspiration rather than part of the story.  

[maraleia]

46 minutes ago, Shaynaa said:

I thought she would actually start with Stonewall so that disappointed me.  Hearing people talk about it wouldn't be the same as seeing it.  I was hoping for a main character who is trans.  I am unclear if we will get more main characters later on.  The trailers kept showing a trans woman and her mother so I hope she's not just a side character.

Also, Clive's dad was a total self hating closet case.  Since Clive was a real person I'm wondering if this was true to life at all.

It's actually Cleve Jones. http://www.clevejones.com/ I've met him and he's a bona fide rock star. I wish they would've emphasized who Rosie was playing, Del Martin because she co-founded the Daughters of the Bilitis in 1955 with her wife Phyllis Lyon. Martin died in 2008 right after they got legally married.

[Shaynaa]

1 hour ago, MarkBlankenship said:

Hi Shaynaa -- I've watched the entire series via screeners, and there is a major trans character. She first appears on night two in a limited way, and on nights three and four, she becomes a big part of the story.

Excellent. Looking forward to it.

52 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I DVR'd this and was going to save it until the rest of my TV schedule cleared a bit (like maybe as soon as tomorrow night) but I started watching it while I was waiting for something else to finish recording. (Commercial elimination.)  I ended up watching this whole thing.  It was so easily digestible. 

I've read some interviews with Dustin Lance Black and he said in one (and I'm paraphrasing here) that he noticed there are so many accounts of Stonewall and many are contradictory.  When exploring why that was, someone said to him what Cleve's older lover said to Cleve at the table---that part of the reason there are so many stories is because Stonewall gave them the feeling that they had the right to their own story. So that's why he made the decision to make Stonewall an inspiration rather than part of the story.  

That makes sense to me.  I was mostly confused since promotional stuff said it started with Stonewall.  It certainly beats the awful Stonewall movie.

44 minutes ago, maraleia said:

It's actually Cleve Jones. http://www.clevejones.com/ I've met him and he's a bona fide rock star. I wish they would've emphasized who Rosie was playing, Del Martin because she co-founded the Daughters of the Bilitis in 1955 with her wife Phyllis Lyon. Martin died in 2008 right after they got legally married.

Whoops, sorry.  I just read his bio on his site.  He founded the AIDS quilt? WOw! I saw panels of it when parts of it did a tour here back in the 1990s. I was a young teen at the time and hadn't realized yet I was queer so I didn't feel the deep connection at the time but I do now.  I am definitely ordering his book from Amazon..

I can see this series is going to be really educational for me.  I really don't much of the backstory behind everything that went on in the movement.  By the time I got interested marriage equality was the big thing (circa late 90s).  I know there have been greats strides in AIDS research but I am ashamed to admit I don't know where it is at these days.  I know people with HIV are living longer lives and it almost seems to get no media attention anymore.  If anyone has any suggestions for further reading on the LGBTQ movement, I would love to here them.

[Silver Raven]

I didn't know Gus Van Sant was involved in this.  I saw all of the hype about Dustin Lance Black, but not Van Sant.

Austin P. McKenzie is fluent in sign language.  He got a job with Deaf West Theater in Los Angeles as an interpreter, and when their production of Spring Awakening moved to Broadway, he was cast as Melchor.

Ironic casting of David Hyde Pierce as Cleve's father.

Emily Skeggs is also a Broadway star, she has been nominated for a Tony.

Why is Guy Pearce's Cleve so effeminate, but Austin P. McKenzie's isn't?

Was that THE Sylvester?

I'd hate to be a bike messenger in San Francisco.  :)

Kind of strange that they only show images of Harvey Milk.

The black guy not being welcome in a gay bar is way above ironic.

[biakbiak]

4 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

Kind of strange that they only show images of Harvey Milk.

Given its DLB I imagine that was a very intentional decision.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One nitpick: when Roma wrote down the phone number for the NOW office in Berkeley, it had a 510 area code. The area code in Berkeley was 415 until 1991.

7 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

The black guy not being welcome in a gay bar is way above ironic.

Racism in the gay community is still common. This article is from just a few months ago.

[marymon]

I felt like I missed something.  Cleve Jones was a sweet quiet maybe even a bit naive kid and then the next scene he was almost cocky in how he was being portrayed.    

[reggiejax]

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Was that THE Sylvester?

If you mean was the character in that scene Sylvester, then the answer is yes.

If you mean was Sylvester playing himself, unfortunately that would be a no, as he passed away in 1988.

Edited March 1, 2017 by reggiejax

[maraleia]

40 minutes ago, marymon said:

I felt like I missed something.  Cleve Jones was a sweet quiet maybe even a bit naive kid and then the next scene he was almost cocky in how he was being portrayed.    

Which scene was the jarring change for you? I really didn't notice that.

[stagmania]

I really wanted to like this...but I didn't. I found the dialogue to be laughably bad in parts, the story not as engaging as I expected, the urgency and energy I wanted to feel noticeably absent. The whole thing was just kind of lacking for me. The character progressions were also startlingly fast in a couple spots-notably Cleve and Roma both going from timid to confident and self-assuresd as hell in the space of a couple scenes.

I'll stick with it for the next episode and see if it captures me a little more. With a pedigree like this and such interesting real-life characters to inspire it, I guess I just expected more.

Edited March 1, 2017 by stagmania

[Silly Angel]

Loved this so much. It's inspirational and much needed in this difficult time.

The way the layers get sliced thinner and thinner was just painful--the lesbian-exclusionary polices of the leisure-class women's movement, the male-exclusionary policies of the middle-class women's movement (still not addressing a persistent and contemporary, alas problem--the exclusion of by sorta-kinda default of working-class, poor women and women of color in the largely privileged and white womens' movement); black men excluded from white gay bars; women, including lesbians, excluded from white gay bars (still happens; I've overheard many a "who's the fish?"). Mother Jose is so right--we are stronger together--sexual minorities, people of color, women, the poor and working class. That's the 95 percent and if we all stopped sniping at each other, we could be a force of unfathomable political and social power.

I gotta go sign up for stuff and start volunteering places. Brb...

[marymon]

8 hours ago, maraleia said:

Which scene was the jarring change for you? I really didn't notice that.

He was all timid and shy then he met Sylvester and then  he  was cocky with Roma? and wanted to get arrested etc.

[starri]

When the advertising was highlighting so many straight actors, I was happy to see that there actually were a lot of openly-gay actors among the cast.  

I think skipping past Stonewall was the right idea.

This is just a nerdy thing, but I got so excited when I saw that one of the women on the NOW panel at the end was supposed to be the late Congresswoman Bella Abzug.  I'm probably the only person who noticed that, but it still made me happy.

Am I crazy, or was one of the women at the protest Jill Biden?

[Sheenieb]

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This is just a nerdy thing, but I got so excited when I saw that one of the women on the NOW panel at the end was supposed to be the late Congresswoman Bella Abzug.  I'm probably the only person who noticed that, but it still made me happy.

Nah, I caught that, too. I wasn't alive during Bella's heyday, but checking out footage of her in this NYC in '77 documentary put her on my radar. She was quite an interesting figure. I smiled when I saw the hat. 

[Dirtybubble]

17 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

The way the layers get sliced thinner and thinner was just painful--the lesbian-exclusionary polices of the leisure-class women's movement, the male-exclusionary policies of the middle-class women's movement (still not addressing a persistent and contemporary, alas problem--the exclusion of by sorta-kinda default of working-class, poor women and women of color in the largely privileged and white womens' movement); black men excluded from white gay bars; women, including lesbians, excluded from white gay bars (still happens; I've overheard many a "who's the fish?"). Mother Jose is so right--we are stronger together--sexual minorities, people of color, women, the poor and working class. That's the 95 percent and if we all stopped sniping at each other, we could be a force of unfathomable political and social power.

Well color me shocked!  Maybe I'm being naive but I did not expect to see so much negativity within the LBGT community itself.  I wanted to give Roma a big hug--hearing her girlfriend say (and I'm paraphrasing) well the problem is YOU not accepting your gayness was just beyond harsh!  Good grief how dare she judge her!

[maraleia]

39 minutes ago, Dirtybubble said:

Well color me shocked!  Maybe I'm being naive but I did not expect to see so much negativity within the LBGT community itself.  I wanted to give Roma a big hug--hearing her girlfriend say (and I'm paraphrasing) well the problem is YOU not accepting your gayness was just beyond harsh!  Good grief how dare she judge her!

Are you any part of the queer community because yes the divisions are real even to this day.

[Dirtybubble]

56 minutes ago, maraleia said:

Are you any part of the queer community because yes the divisions are real even to this day.

No I'm not.  I'm from a small southern town and my only access to the LGBT community is thru TV, Logo TV to be specific.  I have a few friends who are lesbians but I'm not sure how to begin a conversation with them about things like this.  I am hoping this mini series will open the door to a more in depth convo and really just let them know I'm there for them...

[rcc]

On 2/27/2017 at 11:44 PM, MarkBlankenship said:

Hi Shaynaa -- I've watched the entire series via screeners, and there is a major trans character. She first appears on night two in a limited way, and on nights three and four, she becomes a big part of the story.

Since you've seen the series did you notice any awkwardness between Whoopi and Rosie in their scenes together? Rosie's tenure ended badly on The View a while back and Whoopi had something to do with it. Thanks for the response in advance.

[maraleia]

31 minutes ago, Dirtybubble said:

No I'm not.  I'm from a small southern town and my only access to the LGBT community is thru TV, Logo TV to be specific.  I have a few friends who are lesbians but I'm not sure how to begin a conversation with them about things like this.  I am hoping this mini series will open the door to a more in depth convo and really just let them know I'm there for them...

Do you live near any middle to big cities? If so I can point you to some places to go to reach out if you're interested.

[Silver Raven]

I was looking up the people in this show and discovered that the Black Cat Bar, where Mama Jose holds court, actually closed down in 1964, so it was not open at the time of this production - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Cat_Bar

 

Mama Jose is also a real person, Jose Sarria - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Sarria

[Primetimer]

Pardon Mark Blankenship as he cries about this rainbow flag.

View the full article

[memememe76]

Have you recently traveled abroad? I traveled with a broad, but only to New York. Hee.

I am very much invested in this miniseries. What I find most fascinating is the levels of prejudice found in groups who have experienced their own oppression. 

[vixenbynight]

 Along those lines, my favorite image of the night is the unveiling of the Pride Flag. We get to see a scene of Gilbert Parker creating it, and when it unfurls at the Gay Freedom March in 1978, Rees shoots the moment from below, with characters looking up at this massive banner of their unity whipping around in the wind. It's so ennobling and so beautiful, and it reminds me that even in the midst of all the harassment and death, the queer community of this time was also creating something that would triumphantly, unabashedly live.

Such a beautiful thought about tonight's segment of the mini-series. 

The GLBT community realised that they HAD to unite, in order to get their voices heard (and counted for), in the political venue.

Then the AIDS epidemic happened, in which everyone was terrified, but they came to the awareness that they had to again, join forces to battle a war, that they never saw on the horizon.

I hope that ALL of these people, understand their role in how their strength and willingness to be true about themselves has caused amazing change in the existing world.

[maraleia]

I'm really glad this miniseries is focusing on the San Fran activists that are mostly unknown to the audience.

[Shaynaa]

Interesting narrative choice to not actually make a Harvey Milk a character on screen and just use historical footage.  I'm reading, (actually listening as narrated by the author), to Cleve's book and am about halfway through.  Unlike on TV, he actually did go to Amsterdam and spent a ton of time there and traveling around Europe.  Marvin actually moved to NYC in 1978.  I haven't even gotten to Milk's assassination in the book.  I'm definitely finishing it tomorrow.

Is it me or was the baby way too small for the age she should have been in 1981?  Shouldn't have been like a year and half old?

[biakbiak]

21 hours ago, marymon said:

He was all timid and shy then he met Sylvester and then  he  was cocky with Roma? and wanted to get arrested etc.

Wasn't there a time jump between those two moments, not huge but at least several months or a year or two.

@Shaynaa each night has a thread Of its own.

[Irlandesa]

On 2/28/2017 at 0:20 AM, Shaynaa said:

I can see this series is going to be really educational for me.  I really don't much of the backstory behind everything that went on in the movement.  By the time I got interested marriage equality was the big thing (circa late 90s).  I know there have been greats strides in AIDS research but I am ashamed to admit I don't know where it is at these days.  I know people with HIV are living longer lives and it almost seems to get no media attention anymore.  If anyone has any suggestions for further reading on the LGBTQ movement, I would love to here them.

There are some terrific documentaries out there about the activism surrounding HIV/AIDS like "How To Survive A Plague" and "We Were Here." It sucks that the main documentaries I think of are about the AIDS activism but the organization and effort was amazing.  

 

5 minutes ago, Shaynaa said:

No Comments yet about tonight? 

There are separate threads for each night.  So comments are likely there.  As for Harvey Milk not being a figure on screen, it's likely due to the fact that the creator of this show wrote Milk about 10 years ago and probably felt he covered the story he wanted to tell about that politician. 

[Irlandesa]

19 minutes ago, maraleia said:

I'm really glad this miniseries is focusing on the San Fran activists that are mostly unknown to the audience.

I agree.  I almost posted that on Monday but I love how the main characters are real, important people but who aren't as well known and that a lot of the people in their social circles are real people as well.  I've done a lot of Googling.  

We're entering into territory I've seen covered quite a bit in documentaries and I'm always in awe of both the massive disregard to those dying and the way the movement came together to not only fight for rights but support those suffering from the disease. 

[Shaynaa]

Thanks all, I am way over tired.  I'll check out the other threads.

[Shaynaa]

Moved over from the wrong thread.

Watching this thing is so brutal.  Interesting narrative choice to not actually make a Harvey Milk a character on screen and just use historical footage.  I'm reading, (actually listening as narrated by the author), to Cleve's book and am about halfway through.  Unlike on TV, he actually did go to Amsterdam and spent a ton of time there and traveling around Europe.  Marvin actually moved to NYC in 1978.  I haven't even gotten to Milk's assassination in the book.  I'm definitely finishing it tomorrow.

Is it me or was the baby way too small for the age she should have been in 1981?  Shouldn't have been like a year and half old?  Is there going to be another time jump at the start of the next part?  Those HIV tests were dated 1985

[Silver Raven]

Ausitn P. McKenzie is killing it in this show.

It's so weird that they're only showing us bits and pieces of Harvey Milk's body, like he's Jesus in old movies.

Kevin McHale is virtually unrecognizable in this.

It's interesting that they're showing real life people with flaws, instead of just being superheroes.

[biakbiak]

8 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

It's so weird that they're only showing us bits and pieces of Harvey Milk's body, like he's Jesus in old movies.

They have shown him in several archival shots, includong him speaking. The feet was in the scenes with Cleve in the acting footage. They also showed Cleve's dad shoes and on his first day interning for Harvey commenting that he was wearing his dad's clothes. 

I think it's clear why they didn't show him, not only because Dustin had already told that story but because they wanted to highlight other lesser known activists.

[MsTree]

Could someone please explain to me why a "Q" was added to the end of LGBT?  Isn't that redundant of "G"?  If not, what's the difference?

[starri]

Depending on who you ask, Q is for Queer or for Questioning.  For the former, there are people who don't feel they quite fit into the LGBT slots.  I don't understand that myself, but it's only one extra letter to type.

There's an even longer version that includes an I for Intersex and A for Asexual, but that's not really caught on yet.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The first episode was a good introduction to several different people, but this episode was really tear inducing for me.

Loved seeing Artie from Glee pop up in this episode. Even without the glasses, I recognized him right way!

Even though the back and forth conversations/arguments about what to say about GRID weren't as dramatic as the flag unfurling for the same time or Cleve finding Harvey Milk's body, I am glad they included the tension/disagreements about wanting to inform people about a health risk vs causing a panic, especially before they had any conclusive evidence to show what was causing it, how it was being spread, etc. From a scientific/medical point of view, it's irresponsible to announce, "Hey, people are getting sick and we have no idea why so....hope you don't get it!" But from the other side, it's irresponsible not to warn people about an outbreak, especially one so serious. Even before they knew how it was passed along, they knew that this was more than just a superficial rash that would go away in a few days. People were getting seriously ill and dying. From an activist point of view, I understand why some of the gay community did not want to give the conservative anti-gay faction something like this to use against them.

As someone who lives in the Bay Area, I'm glad that they made the effort to film this on location. It's nice to see the actual places where these events happened (City Hall, the Castro, etc). I taught a class at the Women's Building, which is still there today.

[Dirtybubble]

17 hours ago, maraleia said:

Do you live near any middle to big cities? If so I can point you to some places to go to reach out if you're interested.

Thanks!  I'm from SC, right in between the capital Columbia and Charleston.  Atlanta is 5 he's away and that's a bit too far.  Charlotte us about 2.5 hours away

[Sarah 103]

I loved that Randy Shilts was mentioned, and the way he was mentioned. Reading his book "And The Band Played On" during my freshman year of high school changed my life. I thought Cleve putting his feet up the way Harvey did was adorable. I liked that they only showed Harvey in archival footage. It keeps the focus on our lead characters, who in most other stories would be the background characters.

[maraleia]

1 hour ago, Dirtybubble said:

Thanks!  I'm from SC, right in between the capital Columbia and Charleston.  Atlanta is 5 he's away and that's a bit too far.  Charlotte us about 2.5 hours away

Got it.

[Sarah 103]

5 hours ago, starri said:

There's an even longer version that includes an I for Intersex and A for Asexual, but that's not really caught on yet.

I can see why the A hasn't caught on, because in many cases it seems like it would be covered under something else. If one co-worker is pressuring an asexual co-worker to have sex with them, and the asexual co-worker isn't interested, that should be covered under sexual harassment. I'd have a hard time picturing someone not being able to rent an apartment because they are asexual, because how would the owner know or even suspect the renter is asexual? It seems like the issues/experiences would be too different to merit common cause. 

[Sarah 103]

On 2/28/2017 at 1:20 AM, Shaynaa said:

 If anyone has any suggestions for further reading on the LGBTQ movement, I would love to here them.

Parts of it are dated, but it's still powerful.

And the Band Played On: Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic by Randy Shilts

Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution by David Carter

Behind the Mask of the Mattachine: The Hal Call Chronicles and the Early Movement for Homosexual Emancipation by James T Sears

Pre-Gay L.A.: A Social History of the Movement For Homosexual Rights by C Todd White

[starri]

For the point of saying it, And the Band Played On is not an entirely factual account.  Shilts painted an early AIDS victim named Gaetan Dugas, who was a flight attendant for Air Canada as being Patient Zero who started out the initial clusters of infected by being promiscuous during his travels.  What bothers me more, he's also portrayed as basically wantonly, intentionally spreading it once they had finally nailed down what it was that was causing it.  Science proved he wasn't the former, and his friends said he was anything but the latter.  He was dead by the time the book was published, so I guess it was okay to libel him.

The medical side of the story is fascinating, as are the stories about how the early AIDS groups formed and the way the Reagan administration stuck their fingers in their ears and hummed, but I can't 100% recommend it because of that.  The medical stuff is a very big part of why I'm a doctor, though.

We Were Here and How to Survive a Plague are much closer to being the definitive account of the AIDS crisis.

A personal recommendation, the book and documentary The Celluloid Closet.  The book is 35 years old and the film 20, but it's a fascinating look at how homosexuality is presented on film.  The book's author, Vito Russo has been dead for many years, but I've always wanted his estate to give someone permission to update it.  There's a great documentary about him, called Vito, as well.

[Silly Angel]

"I am very much invested in this miniseries. What I find most fascinating is the levels of prejudice found in groups who have experienced their own oppression. "

Yeah, DLB is really pressing hard on this, and I like it so much. It really highlights the difficulty in those early years of how to find one's own identity and locate it within a group AND fight for your rights within that identity. Being asked to join others' battles must have led to some wrenching shape-shifting of the soul for many who had just undergone or were still undergoing the painful process of figuring out who they were.

Loved the sour old Mattachine Society-era men looking down their noses at Ken. Of course, Mattachine was revolutionary in its time, and its contribution cannot be overstated. Harry Hay was putting himself on the line before any of these youngsters was conceived. But these white men had fought hard for gay rights and acceptance; they must have taken one look at a black guy and thought, "Shit, I'm 60. I ain't got time for another battle." If understandable is yellow and unforgivable is blue, the result is a morally murky green.
So interesting to see how social justice is a process, depicted so well. One wonders what little Annie's life will be like when she's her mom's age. Would that be almost nowish? God, how horrible to think all this crap is so recent.

Hard, hard, hard to watch the second half of this episode. It makes me see red when shows like Looking (which I liked) are all, "Yeah, Bill's positive, it's all good. Let's get brunch!" or refer to "some old Stonewall queen." (I forget which show said the latter.) Remember your history, people. Those who fought and suffered and died and whom the powers that be tried to throw in the dustbin of history allowed you to hold hands over Eggs Benedict.

Damn, now I want brunch.

[maraleia]

For those wondering about hte major players in this miniseries. Here's recap of who they are and what they've done. http://sfist.com/2017/02/28/these_are_the_real-life_san_francis.php