S12.E12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

[SueB]

Actually, I'm pretty sure this was Reservoir Dogs.
- The initial gut shot guy watching all the action as it plays out
- The slow walk of BadAss
- The introductions via black screen
- The time jumps
- The DINER (yes, he reused the Diner in Pulp Fiction)
- The BadAss Villain (Blonde in the film, the Prince in the episode)
- ETA: The song "Stuck in the Middle (with you)" was IN the film Reservoir Dogs, in addition to being this episode's name.

I thought this episode was SUPERBLY done.  It seemed like it lasted 20 mins, not 42.  I am, of course, very upset with Mary.  I think she's trying to team with BMoL to get rid of monsters so Sam and Dean can be safe.  But it's stupid, it's Winchester 101, and the boys stopped that shit a few years ago.  Yes they've kept some secrets but this full-on 'work with the Bad Guys' is S5.  Not that I think it's bad writing.  I just think Mary hasn't learned what Sam and Dean have.  And her guilt is driving her to stupid decisions.  Plus she totally wants to go back to Heeeeaaaaavan (sing it like Buffy).  The boys don't want her to kill all the monsters.  The boys just want her to be around.  She's abandoned them because she thinks she's doing the right thing.  *head-desk*.  Of course she hasn't learned from their mistakes.  She wasn't there to see them.  So she's just repeating them. *head-desk*

Anyway, enough on the Mary Rant.  Again, I'm fine with it as a good story but I want her to be caught and this dealt with. I REALLY hope that was Cas watching her.  I want him to confront her.

Back to the episode:
- I LOVED LOVED LOVED everything regarding Cas, Sam, and Dean declaration of LOVE and family.  I'm glad Mary realizes Cas is her son too.
- I knew Wally was a red shirt.
- I thought the villain was outstanding. He had the right gravitas IMO.  Perez did a good job of making him casually uber-powerful.  He was so bored with it all.  And I like the idea of revisiting the yellow-eyed class of demons.  "Princes of Hell".  Now that makes sense.  I loved the backstory of how Crowley got to be King.  And it fit.  No retcon at all IMO.  Of course he went to smarm up to the new "King".  And having him abdicate in Crowley's favor?  That was great.  For a moment, I kinda was hoping that he'd seal it with a kiss (so it looked like a real "deal").  Not that I need to see two middle-age men kissing, but it would have been so very appropriate yet weird (for a demon's most solemn commitment to be a kiss.... seems Judas-like).
- The fight scenes were very well done.  Richard Speight Jr posted a gif of Jensen jumping off the porch to "go have twins".  I gotta say, if they filmed this episode while Jensen was nervous and distracted, it sure didn't show.
 

I'm gonna stop for now.  I want a second watch to really squeeze all the juices.  No commercials, just Supernatural.  This is why I spend my pennies on iTunes (so I can obsessive rewatch the episodes -- don't judge me!).  

Edited February 17, 2017 by SueB

[Mick Lady]

15 minutes ago, SueB said:

I thought this episode was SUPERBLY done.  It seemed like it lasted 20 mins, not 42.  I am, of course, very upset with Mary.  I think she's trying to team with BMoL to get rid of monsters so Sam and Dean can be safe.  But it's stupid, it's Winchester 101, and the boys stopped that shit a few years ago.

This is exactly what Mick and I thought. Came back to add this on rewatch, but you beat me to it!

[AwesomO4000]

Oh, I forgot to mention - and I need a rewatch on this: I loved when Ramiel turned to Crowley's companion demon as if he was going to offer her the job next and she was all "oh, hell no!" Hee.

[Aeryn13]

I was warned to stay away from this episode. Unfortunately, I didn`t listen.

Perez made it pretty clear he has no use for Dean whatsoever. If so, I liked it better when he just wrote him out of the entire final act without an explanation than the superflousness here. 

Anyone remembers Dean once had a connection to Michael? The writers sure don`t. 

And we`re pulling a new league of demons from our ass that have never been mentioned or hinted at before. One of them is a mix between a poor man`s Cain and YED. 

Mary is completely annoying and apparently terminally dumb.

As if Cas would die.

Crowley now chats with Lucifer. Are they that desperate to keep the Lucifer character on the show?

Well, Perez is certainly two for two with me when it comes to garbage.   

[Geordiegirl1967]

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

And Lucifer...maybe, now that Dean saved Michael's spear, he can use that to kill the asshat once and for all!

Crowley destroyed it so that option is off the table. Or maybe some duct tape and superglue....?

[Geordiegirl1967]

8 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Until Dean uses Michael's weapon on him, he's always going to come back.

Why would it have to be Dean? Last nights ep showed clearly that anyone can wield the Lance. It is just a powerful weapon not some Excalibur deal. Sam used it, Ramiel used it, Crowley used it. Anyone could have used it on Lucifer except for the pesky detail that Crowley destroyed it at the end of the ep.

[Geordiegirl1967]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

 

@ahrtee Yes. Thank you for spelling that out so I didn't have to.  I presume the five beings are "types of beings": God/Amara, the Archangels (primordial beings), maybe Horsemen, maybe Leviathans

 

I don't think so. Thats too broad. There are dozens / hundreds of Leviathans for example. We know it cant kill Lucifer. But there were more than 5 Archangels at the time the Colt was made so could it kill other Archangels? We know it can kill Princes of Hell because it killed Azazel. Who knows about the horsemen but they are all dead now anyway.

For our purposes in s12 I think the relevant fact is that it can't kill Lucifer but it can kill Ramiel's brother and sister. Clearly his sister (Demagog or something) is going to be a factor as he mentioned she was interested in the Nephalim. They are going to need it back from the BMOLs pretty soon. Mary should never have given it to them. Is she aware of the sacrifices her husband and sons, for her sake and to avenge her, made to get their hands on that gun? She's read the journal. She must know. The writers are doing a poor job of getting us to like Mary IMO.

[Geordiegirl1967]

7 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

But since when does the colt glow?  Didn't they show it glowing whenever anyone opened the box?  Obviously, I'm going to need to watch again, but I could swear it was glowing.

It was glowing -like one of the God-touched objects from last season. The Colt never glowed. And why wrap it up as if she wasn't allowed to touch it? made no sense when the big reveal came.

[Wayward Son]

I always assumed that when they made that rule in Season 5 the five beings Kripke initially had in mind were God and the four Archangels (Michael, Lucifer, Raphael and Gabriel). 

However, since then they've introduced equally (if not stronger) powerful beings such as the Darkness and the Levithian. So who knows how they'll try to retcon that rule to fit the present day.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, FlickChick said:

 

was when Bobby shot Samifer in Swan Song.

That wasn't the Colt, just a regular gun.  They had already lost the Colt by that point.

 

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought Crowley said that the Colt couldn't kill Ramiel, but I might be remembering incorrectly.

I certainly hope he didn't say that.  The Colt killed Azazel and they were both Princes of Hell. Why would it work on one and not the other?

And as far as Mary knowing Azazel's name, my first thought was, how does she kow that.  But, we do know that she came back in that cemetery at night.  Dean was then talking to her when it was light out, telling her what she missed.  so, yes, I believe she got a whole like of background info without us seeing it.  The other possibility is that when she made the deal to bring back John, the camera cut away before they actually kissed.  For whatever reason, he might have told her his name himself.

[Wayward Son]

Quick question; Since he's the only other white eyed demon where do we think Alastair comes into play? 

Personally I think it should be 

Lilith > Alastair > The Princes of Hell > The Knights > Normal Demons?

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Quick question; Since he's the only other white eyed demon where do we think Alastair comes into play? 

Lillith also had white eyes, so pretty high up.

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

They just did that for the sake of ripping off Pulp Fiction.

Also the diner scene and the slow-mo walking out of the diner scene was lifted directly from Reservoir Dogs. I was honestly surprised when they didn't use the song "Little green bag". But thank God there was no discussion about Madonna's "Like A Virgin".

A fellow Tarantino fan. It took me awhile to catch on but you're right Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction homages. I will give them this credit, it worked I now want to watch both movies (not Hateful 8, that stunk)

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Crowley destroyed it so that option is off the table. Or maybe some duct tape and superglue....?

I'm not so sure he did destroy it. He separated the silver metal part from the rest of the spear but that doesn't mean it was permanently destroyed. I don't know why Dean would pick up the pieces and take it with them if it they believed it was completely useless. 

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I was warned to stay away from this episode. Unfortunately, I didn`t listen.

Yeah, I'm passing on it. I've heard enough and I can see the Pretty on tumblr.

[Wayward Son]

Since the editor on my phone is being a pain 

@Binns @catrox14

In regards to whether the Lance powered up Castiel or not in my opinion the answer would be no. According to the episode, the power of the Lance lay in the runic work. Once that was broken the Lance (and its effects) has been broken. I think of it the same as how a demons power of telekinesis is broken when they die. There is a tie between the Lance and its effect that means if you stop the source you stop it all. There was nothing to suggest that power would then transfer to the people affected by it.

Of course that is only based on the information in this episode. They might change that during Cas' next appearance.  

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah I definitely saw that too.  He was doing his trying to be funny schtick t like he does with Sam when Sam was on the verge of dying. 

 

8 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Plus I think that he was trying to be strong for Cas.

Yeah, the way I saw it we had a moment where Dean was shown to be pretty stricken looking. However, he quickly forced himself to put aside his feelings in order to let Cas know they'd find a way to help him.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Wayward Son
Forgot this wasn't the spoilers thread. Sorry.

[Darkblood8]

43 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Lillith also had white eyes, so pretty high up.

Samhain did too. Since Lilith was the first, I don't know how those two fit in.

[Darkblood8]

I think Perez redeemed himself somewhat from his first episode though he clearly seems to favor Sam (but Glynn seems to favor Dean so at least there is some balance with the new writers). So, random thoughts-

Loved: Got a bit of a squeal over the Colt and another after seeing Mark's back. Also glad they are back to fighting monsters instead of stopping for exorcism or magic handcuffs. 

Liked: The Princes of Hell. They could be interesting and I'm hoping Dagon is a Lovecraft reference. Also, liked seeing Crowleys start towards becoming the King of Hell. Plus the Winchester boys taking out the monsters was a pleasant change (two episodes in a row).

Hated: I officially hate Mary now. She makes me miss Charlie (who I thought was a massive Mary Sue). So far Mary has killed the LoL that beat Dean and Cas, saved her boys from Toni, helped exorcise a demon, took out a vampire that Castiel bungled, helped Asa's kids take out a werewolf pack, hunt a shapeshifter, knock out 6 vampire nests, 4 werewolf packs and a ghoul feeding in Arlington ( all in 12 episodes). I just wish I could see those stories with the characters I have actually cared about for 12 years. Mary continues to be a horrible Mother. I used to think the tragedy was that Sam and Dean lost a loving family and normal life. Now I think it's that Sam and Dean were never going to have loving parents. I wonder if Samuel had succeeded in resurrecting Mary if she would even care that it cost her her sons.  Is it too late for Dean to call up Amara and trade Mary in for a Bobby?

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know why Dean would pick up the pieces and take it with them if it they believed it was completely useless. 

Exactly.  They made a point of showing him picking up both pieces and taking them.  I have to think we'll see that weapon again at a later date.  If it were useless, it would have been left behind just like all of the burned out Hands-of-God from last season.  They were all one and done, and left behind, this spear/lance was not.  

As to whether Dean needs to be the one to use it to kill Lucifer, or whether someone else can, I couldn't care less.  As long as someone uses it, I'll be happy.  

[TexasGal]

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Crowley destroyed it so that option is off the table. Or maybe some duct tape and superglue....?

Well last week we had Rowena giving the boys a fancy new book of magic, plus runes were important in the episode so I bet something in there can fix it.  And Rowena will probably double cross them along the way.  As she does.

I really, really hate Tarantino.  So much that the style of the episode made it barely watchable for me.  And when there was a glow from the box my eyes about rolled out of my head.

I can't believe Mary still gave BMoL the Colt.

Edited February 17, 2017 by TexasGal

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, Darkblood8 said:

saved her boys from Toni

Technically, no.  She screwed the pooch on that one.  Had she shot her when she first walked in the door, then yes, she would have saved her boys. All she did was manage to get Dean the key to free himself and he saved them.  Except not really.  They had to be saved by Mick.

[Demented Daisy]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh, I forgot to mention - and I need a rewatch on this: I loved when Ramiel turned to Crowley's companion demon as if he was going to offer her the job next and she was all "oh, hell no!" Hee.

I thought she was going to say "Oh, hell yes!", which was why Crowley quickly accepted.  Hee, indeed.  ;-)

[Morrigan2575]

18 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I thought she was going to say "Oh, hell yes!", which was why Crowley quickly accepted.  Hee, indeed.  ;-)

She did start to accept the offer, it was amusing 

[Demented Daisy]

On 2/15/2017 at 3:10 PM, Diane said:

When Mary is double crossed, everything is revealed.

Wait... what?  That's poorly written (shocker).  Was she double-crossed?  Or was she just not given all the details?  A double-cross would imply that the BMoL sent her there for one purpose, but was using her for another purpose that they didn't tell her about.  It would appear that they wanted her to get the Colt, which she did, but was unaware of the Prince?  Or were they trying to activate the Princes for some unknown reason and used the Colt as a means to that end?  If so, definite writing fail.

And to whom was everything revealed?  Certainly not any of the characters.

Based on the producer's preview (or whatever they're calling it these days), I wonder if this was the original idea for the episode, but then they shifted from a one-off MotW-style episode to a myth-arc story.....

[Darkblood8]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Technically, no.  She screwed the pooch on that one.  Had she shot her when she first walked in the door, then yes, she would have saved her boys. All she did was manage to get Dean the key to free himself and he saved them.  Except not really.  They had to be saved by Mick.

Fair enough. Let me change that one to saved and inspired the greatest hunter in Canada who could kill 5 Wendigo's at the same time all by himself.

[Dobian]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe Dean told her about it when he gave her that update on his life when she first came back? We didn't see that conversation, but I was under the impression from the way the scene faded and returned that it was a lengthy and likely detailed one.

Mary has been back with them long enough to have had many long conversations with them.  The subject of how she died would have been a big topic and one she would have wanted to know all the details of.  They would have told her how they killed Azazel too.  The name of your killer is something that you won't forget, especially a name that unique.  So I have no problem believing her tripping out at Remiel's (sp?) yellow eyes and thinking of Azazel.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Darkblood8 said:

Fair enough. Let me change that one to saved and inspired the greatest hunter in Canada who could kill 5 Wendigo's at the same time all by himself.

That Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox made me so mad, it wasn't even funny.  We know that young Mary hated hunting and wanted a safe life.  She marries John, has dean and apparently leaves him with a sitter to go off solo hunting?  WTF?

[Boopsahoy]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

We know that young Mary hated hunting and wanted a safe life

She kept saying that but I think she is more like Sam and Dean then she would admit and CAN'T stop hunting.  If you recall the episode where Dean is back in time she hears about someone she knows that is going to be the demons target and she's all ok lets go and her dad says-she doesn't want to hunt but she wants to hunt? Or something to that affect. Its kind of like Its a Terrible Life-they weren't hunters but they HAD to be hunters. JMHO

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

and she's all ok lets go and her dad says-she doesn't want to hunt but she wants to hunt? Or something to that affect. Its kind of like Its a Terrible Life-they weren't hunters but they HAD to be hunters. JMHO

I could handle that attitude, but how on earth did she hunt without John figuring out what was going on?  As far as we know (since I've heard nothing about career or job for her) she was a stay at home mom, I don't remember the exact date of that flashback, but I do remember when I saw it I said, "Where's Dean?"  If she's leaving him with neighbors to babysit in the middle of the day, (and I don't think you can go out on a one-hour hunt), it would get back to John and he would wonder what she was doing with all this time.  Although, I suppose that could explain why he moved out in the Dark Side of the Moon flashback.  And Sam and dEan are constantly getting banged up and scarred.  Are we supposed to believe that Mary is so awesome of a solo hunter that she's not getting hurt at all?  John would be bound to notice cracked ribs, black eyes, broken fingers, etc, etc.

[Darkblood8]

5 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

She kept saying that but I think she is more like Sam and Dean then she would admit and CAN'T stop hunting.  If you recall the episode where Dean is back in time she hears about someone she knows that is going to be the demons target and she's all ok lets go and her dad says-she doesn't want to hunt but she wants to hunt? Or something to that affect. Its kind of like Its a Terrible Life-they weren't hunters but they HAD to be hunters. JMHO

It kind of puts a whole new perspective on the time Mary and John split up. I originally thought it was John's fault but looking at it now Mary was keeping secrets and going away to "tie up loose ends". John may have had the high ground on that one. I think Dean needed the idea of Mary much more than the real thing.

[bethy]

They really aren't trying to make us feel much sympathy for Mary, are they? One of the scenes that got me was when she came into the room where Sam was working on the devil's trap or something, asked where Dean was, then turned to walk out immediately. Sam called her back for a reason I can't remember, but I was struck by her evident, complete lack of concern about Sam. No, "How have you been?" No, "It's been a while." No attempt at all to connect with her son. It made me sad for Sam, who clearly wants some sort of relationship with her. He's the one who said, "Sorry, Mom," in the diner. For all his, "She was never going to cook and clean for us" to Dean, he's the one, to me, who has embraced her momness more than Dean.

I can't decide if the BMoL guy is playing Mary or if he really didn't know what the situation was. I think she's being incredibly naive either way. 

[Darkblood8]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I could handle that attitude, but how on earth did she hunt without John figuring out what was going on?  As far as we know (since I've heard nothing about career or job for her) she was a stay at home mom, I don't remember the exact date of that flashback, but I do remember when I saw it I said, "Where's Dean?"  If she's leaving him with neighbors to babysit in the middle of the day, (and I don't think you can go out on a one-hour hunt), it would get back to John and he would wonder what she was doing with all this time.  Although, I suppose that could explain why he moved out in the Dark Side of the Moon flashback.  And Sam and dEan are constantly getting banged up and scarred.  Are we supposed to believe that Mary is so awesome of a solo hunter that she's not getting hurt at all?  John would be bound to notice cracked ribs, black eyes, broken fingers, etc, etc.

You beat me to it, summed it up much better than I did.

[Commando Cody]

Just like a Winchester to lie and keep things from the others - in the name of helping the others and then screwing up and trying to cover it up until something happens when they are forced to come clean. 

It almost makes Mary look like the new Sam. There is nothing new here in terms of a Winchester screwing up. 

[auntvi]

Now the character Mary is beginning to make sense to me. We're not supposed to like her. She is just being a Winchester and trying to save her family and the world from the monsters. And like Sam & Dean & John she’s making questionable choices and keeping secrets. This is troubling to watch, but now I respect that the writers didn’t take the easy route of sweet, saintly Mother Mary returning to kiss and hug her sons.

[Diane]

Loved it, going to re-watch tonight.  This when I am not so tired.

[bethy]

21 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Now the character Mary is beginning to make sense to me. We're not supposed to like her. She is just being a Winchester and trying to save her family and the world from the monsters. And like Sam & Dean & John she’s making questionable choices and keeping secrets. This is troubling to watch, but now I respect that the writers didn’t take the easy route of sweet, saintly Mother Mary returning to kiss and hug her sons.

I think you're right and just where I'm landing on what they're doing with Mary. But while I don't wish we'd gotten some sugary, saintly Mary, I do wish we'd gotten a Mary who, even as she's working to save the world and her sons, was at least somewhat symphathetic in how she interacted with Dean and Sam. I could sympathize with Sam and Dean and even John making the decisions they did, but they're not giving me much to work with for Mary. 

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, bethy said:

I think you're right and just where I'm landing on what they're doing with Mary. But while I don't wish we'd gotten some sugary, saintly Mary, I do wish we'd gotten a Mary who, even as she's working to save the world and her sons, was at least somewhat symphathetic in how she interacted with Dean and Sam. I could sympathize with Sam and Dean and even John making the decisions they did, but they're not giving me much to work with for Mary. 

I suspect she is both intentionally and unintentionally keeping distant because she's planning her exit strategy.  She doesn't want to come back and fall in the love with THESE boys -- then her heaven won't be her little boys with John.  She also doesn't want them to become too entwined with her because she intends to die sooner rather than later.  I'm telling 'ya, I think Mary is on a mission to get the boys a better life.  And she intends to die trying.  I hope they find out. It'll HURT -- because it's a rejection of who they are now for who they used to be (now that Mary has the gist on how Heaven works).  But I still want them to know and point that out to her.  

[bearcatfan]

As far as Mary knowing Azazel's name, haven't Sam and Dean added to John's journal? I got that impression after Sam got his soul back and was asking Dean if they had hunted a skin-walker recently. If so, she could have seen the name in the journal as Sam gave it to her.

[Wayward Son]

I hope to write a proper review later tonight or tomorrow, but I hated the brothers reaction to Castiel's declaration of love for them as a family. I didnt even expect them to say it back, but they could have said "we care for you" or something. Anything would have beat them just staring gormlessly at him.

[DittyDotDot]

Farewell poor Wally, we barely knew ye! 

I was quite surprised by this one and enjoyed it quite a bit. Although I thought the whole "Cass is dying" ploy painfully ineffective and pointlessly melodramatic, the rest of the episode actually played quite well.  Well done show!

Interesting how Crowley really got his throne. BTW, this is when Crowley works best, in the background working his own angles and such. 

Mary is being a complete and utter idiot, though...or is she? Maybe she pulled a John Winchester and swapped out the real colt for a fake one? A girl can only hope. ;)

14 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'm intrigued about the return of the Colt.  You know they wouldn't have bothered bringing it back unless they have a plan for it.  Lucifer Jr probably.  I think Mary really betrayed Sam and Dean.  That gun would have killed Ramael.  She risked their lives by keeping it hidden.  I don't know that I can forgive that.  I mean, yes, hunting is risky in and of itself.  But, if something is way stronger than you, and you have a weapon that can take it down, and you don't use it simply because you need to keep your secret hidden, you've crossed some kind of line.

This show sure does love it's secrets and lies. Sheesh. I thought the same thing once I saw it was the Colt the BMoL were after. Her whining about how she almost lost one of her boys made me roll my eyes. Seriously, shoot the demon and cop to your shit; that's how you keep your boys safe.

14 hours ago, Binns said:

- someone remind me...when was the last time we saw the Colt? I thought the boys had it all this time for some reason. 

The last time the Colt was seen in the present was after Dean shot Lucifer with it and dropped it in Abandon All Hope. Since Crowley said something about things people just leave laying around, I assume someone picked it up off the ground in Carthage, Missouri and it made it's way back to Crowley by the end of S5. 

13 hours ago, rue721 said:

I'm probably being dense but I don't understand how you can "leave" a physical object in the past anyway? Assuming that nobody destroys it, wouldn't the object just continue to exist and eventually be in the present again?

They didn't "leave" it in the past, it was the past gun. I mean, they didn't take a Colt back with them and leave it there, it was Colt's gun they procured in the past. That is the gun that eventually made it to Elkin's safe and the Winchesters in S1.

13 hours ago, rue721 said:

Another category could be whales. I really can't see a whale being killed by that little gun. Dinosaurs would probably be tough to kill with it, too. Megafauna in general. But Megafauna are probably not included in the Big 5, if I'm being honest.

The Colt did look like it was making the box glow, but I think that was just a hat-tip to Pulp Fiction.

::Snort:: Dinosaurs? Hee!! Is it wrong that I really want them to hunt a dinosaur with the Colt now?! ;)

Yeah, I think the "glowing" was just the lighting in the scene to highlight it as something special. I don't thing the gun itself actually glowed, though.

12 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Jumping in (and then I have to go back to reading all posts) to say that the last time I saw the Colt in real time (not in Frontierland) was when Bobby shot Samifer in Swan Song.

I didn't think that was the Colt in Swan Song, I thought it was just a regular revolver Bobby shot the devil with, but it was all he had at the time and Luci was beating the crap out of Dean, so...? 

[SueB]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I hope to write a proper review later tonight or tomorrow, but I hated the brothers reaction to Castiel's declaration of love for them as a family. I didnt even expect them to say it back, but they could have said "we care for you" or something. Anything would have beat them just staring gormlessly at him.

Excellent word usage here and captures their expressions accurately (except in the eyes, I think an eye closeup would have shown more).  Not making excuses, but I think their reactions were perfectly in-character.  Neither Sam nor Dean (ESPECIALLY Dean) can tolerate "goodbyes".  Even his "I'm proud of us" was both meaningful but very brief.  When faced with un-abashed love and emotion... well, damn.  It's not that they don't have it in them. They absolutely do. But this is not their MO.  And Cas was unambiguously dying and saying goodbye.  And .... I kind of thought the boys were a mix of denial and deer in the headlights.  Sam quickly grabbed "fight" and Dean grabbed "family".  Whew!  Gave them a chance to delay an actual response.  But as Cas sat there spewing black goop as his body was being eaten from the inside out, I think they were each working up to a goodbye.  We know they are capable of it.  Dean got "there" in Don't Call Me Shurley with Sam dying (AFTER failing to Romeo* his way out by gulping in the poison air).  I think both he and Sam just didn't get 'there' before Crowley saved Cas.   

*This is NOT a Wincest statement, more of a "take poison rather than live with your love one dying" statement. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

::sniff::  Wally!  RIP, friend. 

Haven't read through the other comments yet, but my personal hypothesis is that the BMoL "suggested" that Mary enlist Wally for the mission hoping that he'd get killed, since he wasn't so keen on joining them.  Eliminate the competition, you know.  Bastards.

[catrox14]

Assumptions can be made that the boys added things to John's journal but even that is all head!canons since it's never shown on screen that I can recall (Maybe I'm just not recalling). 

In regards to Azazel, supposing Dean did tell her in that scene about the YED, I would be surprised if he had actually name-checked "Azazel" given they only referred to him as Yellow Eyed Demon or Yellow Eyes, until s3 "Sin City" when the demon, Casey,  told Dean his name.  After that I don't think they said his name again until s4 when Dean went back in time. Even after that  Azazel's name was irrelevant to the boys because he was just the "son of a bitch" that killed their Mom and as far as they knew he was the only one and he was dead.  So I'm not entirely convinced they ever actually wrote "Azazel is the Yellow Eye Demon" in a journal. Maybe Sam was keeping his own. I dunno.  

As to what other things they have told her, Mary was with them for like 5 freaking minutes before she left. After that it was radio silence, some occasional texting and WWF and that was primarily Dean.  After that they were trying to find Lucifer and they were tossed into black site solitary for 6 weeks so they weren't  telling her anything then.  I guess I would find it dubious that Dean would tell her that he spent 40 years in Hell being tortured and torturing others, became a demon and was a Knight of Hell and killed a lot of people bad guys or not. Or that Sam spent a year in the Cage with Lucifer and their suitemate, Michael, as Lucifer's vessel, was Soulless for months and was an angel for a hot minute, via text or phone call.  Mary might have gone on a fact-finding mission of her own or maybe Cas told her these things.

I think it's fair to say that most of the audience is deeply,  emotionally invested in the Winchesters life story that started with their mother burning alive and to not be shown how the boys would break these highly difficult epic horrible things that have happened in their lives to their recently-back-from-the dead mother is unsatisfying and IMO poor storytelling on TV. I mean I watch TV to see incredibly talented actors act out these things, not learn about them via poorly written exposition with questionable continuity.  I wanted to see her reactions and their reactions to HER reactions.   I would trade every moment of LOTUS for an entire episode of the boys telling Mary about their life. Make it a bottle episode/clip show and boom money saved. Story told.  

YMMV

[Darkblood8]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I mean I watch TV to see incredibly talented actors act out these things, not learn about them via poorly written exposition with questionable continuity.  I wanted to see her reactions and their reactions to HER reactions.   I would trade every moment of LOTUS for an entire episode of the boys telling Mary about their life. Make it a bottle episode/clip show and boom money saved. Story told.  

That would have been brilliant (particularly LOTUS). They way they portray Mary is practically abusive. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I hope to write a proper review later tonight or tomorrow, but I hated the brothers reaction to Castiel's declaration of love for them as a family. I didnt even expect them to say it back, but they could have said "we care for you" or something. Anything would have beat them just staring gormlessly at him.

I think Dean (and Sam) both had deep emotional reactions. IMO, Dean didn't think angels were capable of feeling "love" per se.  I think  Dean was kind of in shock and taken aback that an angel could feel love for humans. Like really be able to say ' I love you" and mean it. 

IMO, Dean was of the mind that Cas would  be okay until he heard Cas say "Dean, I think I'm dying" and in that moment Dean's face just dropped. Something changed in him and his fear amped up to 10 along with his battle mode.  I think that's why he flipped out on Crowley and told Crowley to put up or shut up.  I think Crowley saved Cas for Dean personally. He didn't have to do that unless he has a bigger plan afoot that involves Cas.  With Crowley you never know.

And IMO, Dean telling Cas that they don't leave family behind IS Dean telling him he loves him too. Dean was willing to stay there with Cas until Cas passed away even if that meant that he would die.  And then once Cas was kind of recovered, IMO the look on Dean's face when he stepped right up to Cas and said "Let's go home" was him returning the love.  That's how I saw it anyway, upon 2nd watch.  YMMV

[KirkB]

I do think Crowley kind of likes Cas and the Winchesters, as much as it pains him, but that's not why he saved him. As he has told people in the past, and in this very episode, these two denim clad nightmares have a tendency to survive everything the universe throws at them and win. It's just practical for him to save Cas because it puts a check mark in the helpful column the next time he and the Winchesters run into one another. He knows they'll kill him if and when they have to but helping out like this might at least make them hesitate.

So, Princes of Hell now? Okay. I thought I remembered the Knights like Abaddon being the first demons. Now it turns out...what, was Cain a Prince too and everyone forgot to mention it?

I always thought John was a bad parent. And in many ways, he was. But now it's starting to look like Mary might have been worse. Not that any of the Winchesters are that big on sharing but seriously? Working wit the BMoL in secret, nearly getting your boys killed, and potentially giving away one of the most powerful weapons in the shows history? John might have stolen the Colt too but only so he could use it on Crowley, the Prince, the BMoL, and probably Cas too for good measure. Not father of the year material by any means but still....

Edited February 17, 2017 by KirkB

[bearcatfan]

9 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I do think Crowley kind of likes Cas and the Winchesters, as much as it pains him, but that's not why he saved him. As he has told people in the past, and in this very episode, these two denim clad nightmares have a tendency to survive everything the universe throws at them and win. It's just practical for him to save Cas because it puts a check mark in the helpful column the next time he and the Winchesters run into one another. He knows they'll kill him if and when they have to but helping out like this might at least make them hesitate.

Not to mention that the reaper that threatened to put them in the empty is dead and it is known by Crowley that Guck is fond of them. He probably figures that if something does manage to kill them, Guck, Amara or someone else will simply resurrect them again.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, KirkB said:

So, Princes of Hell now? Okay. I thought I remembered the Knights like Abaddon being the first demons. Now it turns out...what, was Cain a Prince too and everyone forgot to mention it?

I always thought John was a bad parent. And in many ways, he was. But now it's starting to look like Mary might have been worse. Not that any of the Winchesters are that big on sharing but seriously? Working wit the BMoL in secret, nearly getting your boys killed, and potentially giving away one of the most powerful weapons in the shows history? John might have stolen the Colt too but only so he could use it on Crowley, the Prince, the BMoL, and probably Cas too for good measure. Not father of the year material by any means but still....

The whole demon hierarchy and history is a mess by this point. My best guest is it went as follows: 

Lilith was the very first demon created as a massive "feck you to God". (This has been explicitly stated in canon)

Then Alastair was created. Maybe he was to confirm that the process with Lilith could be repeated. (I'm guessing this by the fact that he too is meant to be extremely old and the only other white eyed demon we've seen. Of course we don't know for sure because show seems to have forgotten him.)

After that the yellow eyed Demons / Princes of Hell. They were extremely powerful demons who were intended to act as generals in the war against heaven. 

The regular demons soon followed. One of them (Cain) was chosen to bear the mark of Cain and train a selection of demons he had chosen to upgrade as key warriors under the generals (knights of hell). 

[Demented Daisy]

57 minutes ago, Darkblood8 said:

They way they portray Mary is practically abusive.

To whom?

[catrox14]

I have a confession to make.

I kind of like....Mr. Ketchup.  (That's my name for him) 

Yes, he's handsome and an asshole but I there is something I like about him. Help me.