S05.E13: Spectre Of The Gun

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

A traumatic attack on City Hall triggers painful memories for Rene about his family. Flashbacks reveal how Rene went from being a simple family man to a hero named Wild Dog. Meanwhile, Oliver must deal with the perpetrator behind the attack and realizes the best way to do so is as Mayor Queen instead of the Green Arrow; and tensions run high in the Arrow bunker.

[Morrigan2575]

Testing

[apinknightmare]

So...aside from the godawful execution of this episode, seems like at this point Oliver doesn't give much of a shit about getting caught for murdering Billy since he told Chase he didn't want to cover it up and also didn't want to ask Susan to back down on her investigation. I didn't think it was possible for them to make him look more stupid, but LOL @ me - it's always a possibility.

[Sunshine]

Felicity has no POV at all.  Did they forget she was shot or what?!

[BkWurm1]

So now I think less of Wild Dog than I did before.  Kid loses her mom and he instead of getting his life together, he goes out to beat up people and eventually join as a full time mask while he lets her stay in the foster care system.   

Edited February 16, 2017 by BkWurm1

[KenyaJ]

Oof. I appreciate the desire of the writers to tackle an important and timely social and political issue, but perhaps they should leave it to better shows. That was so clunky and trite, and I just can't.

Also, was it just me or did the Canary Whisperer Diggle have more scenes with Dinah tonight than he's had with Felicity all season? I didn't even mind their scenes, but I just kept thinking the entire time how much I miss the days when Diggle and Felicity were allowed to interact.

[calliope1975]

1 minute ago, Sunshine said:

Felicity has no POV at all.  Did they forget she was shot or what?!

Yep. Interesting that the one character who's life was almost permanently changed by a gun didn't get a POV. 

I thought this entire episode was terrible. Bad acting, laughable dialogue, and nonsensical. There's a reason Arrow has never had a Very Special Episode, and I hope MG doesn't get to hijack any more episodes to stroke his white, liberal, Hollywood dudeness. (I say that as a liberal in Hollywood, though not white nor a dude.)

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So now I think less of Wild Dog than I did before.  Kid loses her mom and he instead of getting his life together, he goes out to beat up people and eventually join as a full time mask while he lets her stay in the foster care system.   

I hope there's more to this story? Something about his 'redemption' or whatever that amounts to more than him just thinking she's better off with a foster family and not even trying to get her back. I guess maybe Zoe's getting the William treatment - relevant for plot purposes and then never heard from again.

[Sunshine]

Arrowwriters said there were some powerful performances in this episode.  I think I missed them.

[jay741982]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I hope there's more to this story? Something about his 'redemption' or whatever that amounts to more than him just thinking she's better off with a foster family and not even trying to get her back. I guess maybe Zoe's getting the William treatment - relevant for plot purposes and then never heard from again.

Well he looked happy when Curtis offered to help him get his daughter back. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen

[statsgirl]

My respect for both Oliver and Rene just dropped tenfold.  Oliver for being such an idiot for picking Susan over Thea, the sister he's sworn for  five years he loves more than anything and for being such a wimp about the gun argument, and Rene for making his daughter lose both her parents.

And the worst thing was that they ignored Felicity.

4 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Yep. Interesting that the one character who's life was almost permanently changed by a gun didn't get a POV.

That's why.  The argument would have been done then.

[Sunshine]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I hope there's more to this story? Something about his 'redemption' or whatever that amounts to more than him just thinking she's better off with a foster family and not even trying to get her back. I guess maybe Zoe's getting the William treatment - relevant for plot purposes and then never heard from again.

Sounds like Curtis has a lawyer friend to help him.  How can he be a single parent and a vigilante?  Seems a little irresponsible to me.

I noticed both Tinah and Rene have new jobs tonight - SCPD and assistant to the Deputy Mayor.

[jay741982]

Liked Thea dropping some shade on Suzie. Disliked Oliver telling Thea why she doesn't like Susan. Thea should've slapped him lol

[weathered1]

It's like every time we say they can't possibly produce a worse and/or dumber episode, they go all out to prove us wrong. 

So in one episode, they continue to push pointless Susan and the ridiculous - yet "all in" - relationship with the lead character. They make said lead possibly the dumbest character on television (or at least in the top 5) and have him choose the ridiculous LI over his own sister. They give far too much focus to a very much disliked new character . . .  only for that focus to make him look even worse. In an episode about guns, they blatantly ignore the repercussions gun violence had on a member of the team(!!). 

And all of that was peppered liberally with clunky, asinine dialogue, out of character actions, phoned in "acting," and a "storyline" that was mostly devoid of sense. 

It's times like this when I find myself wondering if they're actively trying to tank this show for some reason. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by weathered1

[kismet]

Guys, that live chat was fun! Thanks :) I remembered how much fun I used to have discussing Arrow.

That episode was horribad... They really should leave the big social/political episodes to higher caliber shows & writers room. #sorryNOTsorry

Especially when next week they will be back to killing a lot of people whether its guns or not. Somehow the message gets a little cloudy when your show is run on violence.

And now, I bow out of the episode conversation. I made a promise to myself to not be in the episode or spoiler threads until the show improves. Clearly this was not that pivotal episode to bring me home.

Enjoy your chatting :)

7 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

Arrowwriters said there were some powerful performances in this episode.  I think I missed them.

Clearly they foresaw the live chat. :)

[ladylaw99]

I got this ep on  pvr so it sounds like I should just delete  it. I trust you guys and it really sounds awful, so delete.

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

Sounds like Curtis has a lawyer friend to help him.  How can he be a single parent and a vigilante?  Seems a little irresponsible to me.

It's not even what happens going forward - he just let her be for however long after her mother died, decided to go off and do his own thing instead of fighting for her. And if Curtis hadn't said anything to him it seems like he would've just let her stay in foster care?

[JJ928]

Bless the live chat thread. I know to delete this ep off the dvr without watching, and seeing the reactions in real time was fun. Hopefully nothing puts me off next weeks ep. I wanna watch for Rutina Wesley. lol

[Lantern7]

So . . . does Arrow get the Best Drama Emmy now, or will we have to go through the formality of announcing nominees first?

Oooooooooyyyyy. This show tries way too hard. Hot button issue and the origin of Wild Dog? And on the same week that we don't have first-run episodes of The Flash and Legends Of Tomorrow from the CW? Damn. Damn.

I don't hate Rene. I get where he's coming from a lot of the time. And he looks decent in a suit, even if it looks like he's the shortest guy on the cast. It's just that he is the grim 'n' gritty version of a putz. Curtis is a putz, but I think he gets a little more love because of the familiarity and the adorkablity. And the hair. Gotta love Echo's hair. And, of course, Rene inadvertently kills his wife. Think of it this way . . . we might get a season finale while Rene gets his kid back, and the Wild Dog gear gets left back at the Arrowcave/Quiver. I'm still willing to bet that he ascends to Heaven, though, because this show can be nuts. Not the fun nuts like Gotham and LoT, though.

Honestly, why does anybody live in Star City? Every friggin' year, shit goes sideways. And it doesn't get better by 2046, if LoT is any indication.

I wouldn't say this is the definitive worst episode, but it is a contender. I'm thinking it took longer to film because nobody could keep a straight face.

ETA: Mental image of Prometheus back in his headquarters, munching on popcorn and wondering why he has to reign terror upon Star City.

ETA2: At least next week looks more fun. "Say I ruined True Blood one more time! I dare you!!!"

[benteen]

I kind of laughed at how vague that Gun Ordinance Bill was at the end because you can tell the writers clearly did not want to commit to it in the end.

Quote

Honestly, why does anybody live in Star City? Every friggin' year, shit goes sideways. And it doesn't get better by 2046, if LoT is any indication.

Seriously, who wants to live in a place where a mass shooting is literally not amongst the five worst events to ever happen in the city?

I think Oliver talking down the shooter was just ridiculous at the end.

Edited February 16, 2017 by benteen

[thegirlsleuth]

Thanks to all of you for taking one for the west coast team.  I won't be watching, but will be reading all your commentary.

[Jediknight]

21 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Yep. Interesting that the one character who's life was almost permanently changed by a gun didn't get a POV.

She's not the only character.  Oliver almost died thanks to being shot, and he was shot by his own mother.

[KenyaJ]

1 minute ago, benteen said:

I kind of laughed at how vague that Gun Ordinance Bill was at the end because you can tell the writers clearly did not want to commit to it in the end.

Seriously! It doesn't restrict gun sales or gun carry laws and it protects gun owners' rights. Great. Sounds like an NRA dream! It was so half-assed to not even attempt to describe what the ordinance restricted. 

[Lantern7]

6 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Thanks to all of you for taking one for the west coast team.  I won't be watching, but will be reading all your commentary.

I recommend you DVR it if you don't watch "live." I do not drink alcohol. That said, you can probably make a decent game with this episode. Watch responsibly, okay?

[Mrs. de Winter]

This episode reminded me of when I was a kid and I would watch Dynasty or Dallas with my mom and the characters would kiss and I would leave the room because I was embarrassed.  Except here I was so embarrassed by the bad writing and acting that I didn't just leave the room - I changed the channel and am not sure I will ever change it back. 

Unless Thea gets to kick Oliver in the balls - I would change it back for that.  

[Writing Wrongs]

Samaire Armstrong was doing some awful acting. 

19 minutes ago, kismet said:

Somehow the message gets a little cloudy when your show is run on violence.

Exactly. I was rolling my eyes a lot. 

[calliope1975]

9 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

She's not the only character.  Oliver almost died thanks to being shot, and he was shot by his own mother.

Fair point. For some reason, I just count the shooting as one of his oh so many near death/should have been a fatal injury moments. 

That said, I don't know that I now know Oliver's POV on the issue. As has been said, that bill changed nothing, so what was Oliver's goal? Lip service? He is a real politician!

[thegirlsleuth]

8 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I recommend you DVR it if you don't watch "live." I do not drink alcohol. That said, you can probably make a decent game with this episode. Watch responsibly, okay?

Hahaha.  I don't drink either, but if I get back in time to do the live watch with the west coast I may join in.  That looked fun.

[Miss Dee]

*shrugs* I liked it.

This forum scares me, so I'm going to make the one statement I think can be universally agreed upon: Diggle's guns of the non-controversial sort. Daaaammn. Please wear black tanks more often!

[Lokiberry]

Star Trek did it  better.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

This thread is for discussing the most recent Arrow episode.  Other TV shows can be discussed either in their own forum or in the Small Talk thread. 

[BkWurm1]

I don't understand how that much yakkity yak could produce so much nothing.  When it was over, I really was surprised.  

So Thea still hates Susan but Oliver is Mr. Grumpy pants about anyone saying anything bad about her.  He won't ask her to back off digging and wants Chase to stop covering up the details of Billy's death. Still not sure why he wanted to cover it up, but ok.  

Diggle seems nearly as unhinged as he did last week - minus the blood, maybe Russia should have come after this episode.  

There were lots of acting choices I don't get but Oliver's praise of Felicity making a break through in tracking down Prometheus's mother stood out.  Why did he act so surprised?  This is Felicity.  This is what she does.  And why again is she even hiding this data cache?  Just having it should not be seen as a problem.  The logic is just not there.  

I don't mind that Wild Dog is working as Quentin's assistant.  And I was complaining that Dig was giving weird life lessons to Tinah since he hadn't been able to cope and ended up going back into the military, but it actually works if she signs up to be a cop again.  

Not that it is at all plausible that normally she'd be hired.  I was going to say they'd never hire someone that had fallen off the grid like that for three years after a major trauma, but this is Star City.  Her new landlord probably vetted her harder.  

It's kind of nice to have a couple gainfully employed team members.  Felicity I'm sure is just rich so I'm ok with her living off stock dividends, lol.  Maybe Curtis is still getting unemployment?  

I really do hope they've written in the little girl in foster care as WD's exit story.  Please oh please oh please!!!

[benteen]

Quote

Diggle seems nearly as unhinged as he did last week - minus the blood, maybe Russia should have come after this episode.

Yes, we really are getting a lot of "HULK SMASH" out of Diggle and it's not exactly bringing out the best in David Ramsay as an actor .

Edited February 16, 2017 by benteen

[BkWurm1]

I think my "favorite" part of this episode was when Vigilante is lecturing Oliver that his bow and arrow is just a less effective gun.  

[statsgirl]

Early in the episode, I quite enjoyed it,   It brought back memories of episodes on ER and LA Law and other shows like that.  And then when MG tried to reach a resolution, it failed.  Because there is no resolution to this unless we go back to the 1970s when the NRA believed there should be limitations to gun control. 

This was supposed to be the episode that redeemed Rene.  Can he please leave now?

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Not that it is at all plausible that normally she'd be hired.  I was going to say they'd never hire someone that had fallen off the grid like that for three years after a major trauma, but this is Star City.  Her new landlord probably vetted her harder. 

It feels like the show is determined to dig both Rene and Tinah deeply into the show.  I can see that being assistant deputy mayor is a good job for Rene but I don't want to keep seeing him every time I see Quentin.

And I worry about Quentin's health.  The cast is way too large and if Tinah is on SCPD they don't need Quentin to be the police liaison.

I hated the councilwoman. Bad acting, bad arguments.

Bad episode.

[mtlchick]

If I was an NRA member, I would have been laughing through it.   It's like they forgot the lead character did kill people once upon a time, just with a projectile that comes from a bow and not a gun.  Meanwhile the one that was shot and was paralyzed for a while has...absolutely nothing to say.  

If it had advanced the Prometheus story even by a bit, then I may have been more inclined to care.  But this felt like a strange after school special wrapped in green leather and didn't add anything.  This was a filler episode that had a "message" and nothing more. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by mtlchick

[AyChihuahua]

24 minutes ago, MuuMuuChainsmoker said:

This thread is for discussing the most recent Arrow episode.  Other TV shows can be discussed either in their own forum or in the Small Talk thread. 

Where is it appropriate to say another show, not in the same universe, is better?

[Cthulhudrew]

52 minutes ago, benteen said:

I kind of laughed at how vague that Gun Ordinance Bill was at the end because you can tell the writers clearly did not want to commit to it in the end.

This. It didn't even sound like a gun ordinance; "Freedom of Citizen's Gun Rights" or whatever it was called made it sound more like an open carry law or something.

I really didn't think we'd ever have a "Very Special Episode" on this show. Bleah.

[Sunshine]

It did manage to position both Rene and Tinah so that they can interact with Mayor Queen who seems more in play for the rest of the year.  Meanwhile Diggle, Felicity & Curtis are in the bunker.

The gun ordinance is probably a feel good measure.  Look we did something.  It just doesn't have any real teeth in it and we won't be enforcing it.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Sunshine

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Where is it appropriate to say another show, not in the same universe, is better?

Small Talk.  

[benteen]

7 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

This. It didn't even sound like a gun ordinance; "Freedom of Citizen's Gun Rights" or whatever it was called made it sound more like an open carry law or something.

I really didn't think we'd ever have a "Very Special Episode" on this show. Bleah.

If you're going to go all out for a Very Special Episode, in this case gun violence, then you need to commit to it totally.  Instead, they copped out making a tough decision by creating a law that registers and protects the right to carry.  It's hard to describe this law as vague as they literally don't explain what the law is.  It's a complete fantasy law and that's how they decided to stick the landing.

[Mellowyellow]

Are there gifs of Felicity?

I feel kinda creepy skimming this episode just to perve on her but someone said she was really pretty in this ep!

[SmallScreenDiva]

I couldn't get past Oliver's convo with Thea. Susan is "good" at her job?!?! The woman who is basically prostituting herself for a story!?! Fuck this show! Why are they making their hero so fucking dumb?!

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, benteen said:

If you're going to go all out for a Very Special Episode, in this case gun violence, then you need to commit to it totally.  Instead, they copped out making a tough decision by creating a law that registers and protects the right to carry.  It's hard to describe this law as vague as they literally don't explain what the law is.  It's a complete fantasy law and that's how they decided to stick the landing.

Or even if they didn't want to commit to a "side," make the issue in the ep some softball thing that isn't SUPER controversial that the introduction of this bill would resolve. I mean, I realize that all sides get heated, but there's a middle ground that they even failed to hit while standing right in it. Like, this bill Oliver introduced doesn't fix anything? He seemed more like a windbag politician here than he ever has before. 

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I couldn't get past Oliver's convo with Thea. Susan is "good" at her job?!?! The woman who is basically prostituting herself for a story!?! Fuck this show! Why are they making their hero so fucking dumb?!

Not to mention the reporter who is "good" at her job wasn't anywhere to be seen during a freaking mass shooting, lmao.

[bethy]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

So now I think less of Wild Dog than I did before.  Kid loses her mom and he instead of getting his life together, he goes out to beat up people and eventually join as a full time mask while he lets her stay in the foster care system.   

What? Wild Dog left his child in the foster care system? Haaate. As a former foster parent, that makes me ragey. I don't care how good the foster placement is, don't leave a kiddo in that limbo. If he didn't think he could care for her, he should relinquish his rights and let her be adopted. Otherwise, dude, man up and put your child's needs ahead of your desire for revenge, or whatever.

Way to make me dislike that character even more, Show. And I didn't even watch.

[insomniadreams88]

Didn't like the episode. Will probably never rewatch it. 

I did love Thea. Keep hating on Susan. Maybe it will eventually get through to Oliver since apparently all she and Lance had to do was tell Oliver he had to deal with this as the mayor and not GA and he agreed. But seriously, Oliver? Your sister is very firm in not liking your choice of girlfriend and your response is to say you're getting serious with her? Really? And Susan is not good at her job or a good person, and guess what, everything about her proves that. Everything. Including this episode. Guess what, Oliver? I bet if you went to one of the competent reporters in that room for that conference and tried dating her, she'd turn you down because that's how a reporter should respond to someone they're covering. I guess getting another photo of Oliver in Russia was more important than covering the biggest story in Star City? Maybe? I don't even care where she was, just that she exists and the show keeps talking about her. She's not even in the episode and we had to hear about her. 

If they thought I'd like Rene after his flashbacks ... I don't.

I did like that Tinah raised the problem of her not really having anything to say about her past 3 years because I just expected Arrow to already have her set up in a nice apartment (maybe the Diggles' apartment slightly made over?) before I saw the photos of her at HIVE. 

So annoyed that they seemed to have forgotten Felicity was shot and paralyzed last year. I even half-expected Curtis to bring it up as reminder of the tech he invented, but ... nothing. Oh, and Oliver and Diggle didn't notice the flash drive just sitting right there? Maybe they needed a camera to zoom in for them. I guess they were more focused on, "Yay, Felicity got something. Let's ignore how obvious she's being about being vague as to how."

And finally, Oliver is a horrible mayor. Why is Oliver so stupid in every aspect of his life right now? 

[benteen]

Was anyone else concerned that Diggle and Dinah were (or are) getting too close?  I was afraid they were going to set up a "John cheats on his wife" storyline.

Edited February 16, 2017 by benteen

[BkWurm1]

I was trying to really pinpoint why this episode was so bad and I think really it was the epic level of laziness that went into crafting it.  I don't disagree that the subject of guns and violence and what to do about it is a worthy conversation to have and a worthy subject to try and get movement on, but this script didn't take the show or the characters into account and just slapped a bunch of talking points on people without really tailoring it to Arrow.  

As was pointed out by EVERYONE, Star City faces shootings and attacks like the one shown or worse ALL THE TIME.  Once a year the WHOLE city is nearly destroyed.   

The first strike against this episode is that they never explained why THIS attack was the tipping point.  Without that information to frame the episode against, everything the show tried to say came off as hollow and hypocritical.  

Strike two was that the episode didn't personalize the issue when so many of these characters have a long history with guns and gun violence.  The issue needed to be framed from the perspective of the show, not a list of wikipedia facts.  This was a bad time to focus the only emotional weight on a character that hasn't been fleshed out yet.  

And his flashbacks barely even had anything to do with guns.  His take away was that if he'd gotten to his gun he could have protected his wife and that it was his responsibility to protect her but by that reasoning he'd already failed to protect her because she was already mixed up with that crazy drug dealer.  Why tie a complex question about having a gun to protect your family to a family member getting mixed up in illegal activities?  It clouds the issue.  

And Curtis was the big anti guns guy but the closest thing they came to personalizing it with Curtis was him spouting a statistic about being more likely to be shot because he's black.  It's all so cold and analytical.  Kept at an arms length by facts but this was television.  Tell me a story that lets me feel something.  Use that to get the message across.  Don't just list facts.    

Felicity initially is the one trying to move the plot along by getting everyone back on topic (looking for the shooter) and that was fine but then MG decided to make that into Felicity not wanting to offend anyone by talking about it?  

It could have actually been a meaningful observation from Felicity that arguing about it seems pointless if she'd been able to reference both the awful things that had happened to her and in their lives involving guns while also pointing out how even she'd used one of those sub automatics to protect herself.  Or bring up them trying to get illegal guns off the streets and more just coming in.  They have all this history on the show and with the characters and they didn't tap into any of it.  

No, actually they had Oliver mention his mom and his sister and Tommy.  NONE OF WHICH WERE SHOT!!!!

But strike three for me was them trying to end the episode with a political win that in order to make happen, the show had to skip right on past WHY the bill was a win.  Arrow is a show about ordinary (ish) people trying to step in where the law cannot.  If this very special episode about guns was to have any true resonance, the win or at least the change, had to happen with our crime fighters, not in the Mayor's office because this show does't really care about what happens in Star City politics.  It's as meaningless as Oliver throwing that benefit concert.  Yeah, he did it but it doesn't service the story being told and if it doesn't add anything to the show or the characters, it only drags the show and whatever message they were selling down.  

And once again, Oliver is grappling with big emotions and apart from chit chatting with counsel members, he doesn't express himself.  We needed him to express to the people who know him his conflicting feelings, and not just the passing, "it's complicated"  This would have been the PERFECT time for Oliver to explain WHY he hates guns.  But we don't get any insight into him or anyone but Rene and it's not the guns or the drugs that I'm stuck thinking about but the crap dad part.  

Basically, I hated this episode because I get what MG wanted to do but he did it in the worst possible way while blatantly ignoring the gold mine of history in the show that he could have been tapped into.   

[GHScorpiosRule]

There is nothing I can add that wouldn't be superfluous on top of what so many of you have already said about how horrid this episode was.

Oliver: (paraphrasing) Stop being mean to the woman I'm boinking/screwing serious about just because she played you! Get over it! I'm not going to stop screwing seeing her, SO THERE! NEENER!NEENER!

If Guggenheim really wanted to write a serious episode about gun violence/control, he should have Fucking gotten Bruce Timm to write it. Justice League Unlimited did a far more superior job of writing Ollie's stance on this subject. I'm blaming my meds for caving and watching this shitfest tonight.

[wonderwall]

35 minutes ago, benteen said:

Was anyone else concerned that Diggle and Dinah were (or are) getting too close?  I was afraid they were going to set up a "John cheats on his wife" storyline.

Everyone saw it. Even IGN saw it. 

It seems like the actress was REALLY phoning it in hard with her 'smolder' there. *rolls eyes*

Anyways, with every episode, I become less of a fan of Dinah. Apparently it was more important for us to see where she lives (which... come on, who cares?) than for us to waste time on Felicity's POV (a woman who was shot and paralyzed).