S04.E03: XXXI

[Bort]

Quote

Max runs afoul of the law; Rogers reckons with his past; Flint and Madi come to an understanding; Long John Silver returns.

[ulkis]

Yikes. I didn't like Teach but that was rough.

Awesome entrance by Billy.

Edited February 12, 2017 by ulkis

[FlowerofCarnage]

I giggled like a school girl when Silver and Madi were reunited. Love that they didn't give a shit about discretion( I am  sure their relationship is pretty much an open secret amoungst her people and the pirates with the exception of Flint.lol)

Loved that Eleanor was like, " this is going to end badly, let me get the fuck out of here!"

Also loved Flint's "yep..yep..yep" answers to Silver's questions.

That was so hard to watch but Teech took it like a boss.

Next week should be interesting with Rodgers thinking he has crushed the remaining resistance only to find that Silver and Co. have taken Nassau.

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, ulkis said:

Yikes. I didn't like Teach but that was rough.

Awesome entrance by Billy.

 l looked away during some of that Teach scene. Brutal!!!

I raised both fists and yelled "BILLY! Billy came through" LOL

15 minutes ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

I giggled like a school girl when Silver and Madi were reunited. Love that they didn't give a shit about discretion( I am  sure their relationship is pretty much an open secret amoungst her people and the pirates with the exception of Flint.lol)

I loved how low key it was. No words were needed in that moment. And yes, if Flint thought they became friends even, he knows they became much more now LOL

[Enero]

3 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

 I loved how low key it was. No words were needed in that moment. And yes, if Flint thought they became friends even, he knows they became much more now LOL

I loved this as well. The looks Madi and Silver shared said it all. No words needed indeed. That said, Flint had a subtle, but interesting response, I thought, to what he saw. In the one sense he seemed happy for them perhaps remembering his relationship with Miranda, but on the other hand it seemed as if he realized his relationship now with Silver and Madi is more complicated with them being a couple, which may not bode well for his place and power in this alliance.  

Billy nearly f*cked up the alliance between the pirates and slaves. So thank goodness Silver came back when he did.  Otherwise  Flint/Madi would've been SOL. He did come through in the end, which was all kinds of awesome. But this situation with him, Silver and Flint is volatile and thus potentially unstable. They're going to have to keep their conflicts under control if they are to have continued success. 

Horrible way for Teach to go, but as been said, he took it like a boss, which in the long run may undermine Rodgers intent, especially with them now returning to an overrun Nassau. 

Excellent episode! Each one keeps getting better and better. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Enero

[Neurochick]

Just watched the episode.  Rogers is the most evil character in this show.  Why?  Because he claims to be fighting for good, yet he acts like the pirates, like ISIS or something.  What he did to Teach was what pirates did, so he's no better than them.  He can't go away soon enough.  And he couldn't even kill Teach that way, he had to shoot him because his men were starting to see what a pussy Rogers is.  Every time I see his face I have an urge to say "meow."

Glad Berrenger or whatever his name was, got it from Israel Hands.  Loved that Silver gave him the okay.

Loved seeing Silver and Madi reunite.  Yay!

Flint and Billy, please just pull your dicks out and see whose is bigger, Billy needs to grow up.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Neurochick

[Enero]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Just watched the episode.  Rogers is the most evil character in this show.  Why?  Because he claims to be fighting for good, yet he acts like the pirates, like ISIS or something.  What he did to Teach was what pirates did, so he's no better than them.  He can't go away soon enough.  And he couldn't even kill Teach that way, he had to shoot him because his men were starting to see what a pussy Rogers is.  Every time I see his face I have an urge to say "meow."

Yeah. Everytime I see Rogers I see a punk. He certainly doesn't scream badass like most of the other men and even women on the show. After what he did to Teach I see (and I think the captives and crew too) saw a monster, which perhaps was what he was going for. 

But with "what he holds most precious" trapped on the island that Long John Silver  has now overrun and no finances coming from Eleanor's family to clear up his debt so he can continue on, this may end up blowing up in his face. 

Random thought, things appear to be moving along rather quickly and we're only three episodes in. I wonder if there'll be a time jump at the end of the season?

Edited February 12, 2017 by Enero

[ulkis]

9 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I loved how low key it was. No words were needed in that moment. And yes, if Flint thought they became friends even, he knows they became much more now LOL

Oh, Flint probably knew from almost the start, I'm sure. 

[Triskan]

Damn, the keelhaul scene was brutal ! As said some posts above, Teach taking it like a boss will come to undermine Rodger in the end ! His return at Nassau will be quite rock'n'roll !

And I must stay I freaked out for Jack. I kinda guessed it would be too much for Rodger to have another execution after Teach, but I still was on the edge ! (Yeah, Jack is my favorite character ! Really looking forward to see what's in store for him next !)

And I cheered when Israel Hands got his... well hands on Berringer ! He wanted theather, he got it ! 

Also, really curious to see what will result of Eleanore now taking the fort, apparently... I would like for her to become again a major figure in Nassau before her inevitable fall ! 

Now Billy and Flint will have to work together and set aside their conflict if they want any hope in maintainting their dominion of Nassau and it will be really interesting to see the scenes between them ! 

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, Enero said:

Yeah. Everytime I see Rogers I see a punk. He certainly doesn't scream badass like most of the other men and even women on the show. After what he did to Teach I see (and I think the captives and crew too) saw a monster, which perhaps was what he was going for. 

I disagree.  I don't think anybody saw a monster, I think they saw a punk ass poser.  See, he thought he was a badass like, "I'm gonna fuck Teach up and then I'll be The Man."  But every time they brought Teach back up, and Rogers was like, "yeah, I win," Teach would come back to life and Rogers had a look on his face like "WTF?"  The only way Rogers saved his dignity and his balls was to shoot Teach in the head and the crew was probably like, "What a fucking pussy, he should have done that in the beginning, that way WE wouldn't have had to exhaust ourselves with this keelhaul bullshit." (thanks Triskan, I'd forgotten what it was called)  That's why Rogers didn't do the same to Jack, because had he failed again, his own men probably would have wanted to kick his ass.

I also like the artistic choices the show made.  The keelhaul scene was done nearly without music, which was a good choice.  Also the episode began with Berringer holding a chain with this cameo portrait of I guess his wife and daughter and the episode ended with the same chain falling out of his now dead hands.  Did Israel Hangs hang Berringer upside down?  I couldn't tell that.  

I wonder how this season will end.  When they filmed it last year, no one knew it would be the final season.  From what I understand it was she show runners' choice, Starz wanted another season.  

Edited February 12, 2017 by Neurochick

[Tom Rider]

New to this forum.  Love this show.  Great episode, but one thing here makes no sense.  Why in the world did Teach and Anne Bonny take a vanguard to Rogers' ship in the first place?  Their ship was twice the size of Rogers and could easily have destroyed it with cannon fire.  If the goal was to kill Rogers, it seems to me that would have been easily done.  This to me was one of the very few weak spots in the writing in this series.  From a purely tactical point of view, the entire exchange made no sense.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Tom Rider
Spelling

[FlowerofCarnage]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I disagree.  I don't think anybody saw a monster, I think they saw a punk ass poser.  See, he thought he was a badass like, "I'm gonna fuck Teach up and then I'll be The Man."  But every time they brought Teach back up, and Rogers was like, "yeah, I win," Teach would come back to life and Rogers had a look on his face like "WTF?"  The only way Rogers saved his dignity and his balls was to shoot Teach in the head and the crew was probably like, "What a fucking pussy, he should have done that in the beginning, that way WE wouldn't have had to exhaust ourselves with this keelhaul bullshit." (thanks Triskan, I'd forgotten what it was called)  That's why Rogers didn't do the same to Jack, because had he failed again, his own men probably would have wanted to kick his ass.

I also like the artistic choices the show made.  The keelhaul scene was done nearly without music, which was a good choice.  Also the episode began with Berringer holding a chain with this cameo portrait of I guess his wife and daughter and the episode ended with the same chain falling out of his now dead hands.  Did Israel Hangs hang Berringer upside down?  I couldn't tell that.  

I wonder how this season will end.  When they filmed it last year, no one knew it would be the final season.  From what I understand it was she show runners' choice, Starz wanted another season.  

Jessica Parker Kennedy did an interview where she said they were told midway through filming that it would be the finale season.

[Scaeva]

1 hour ago, Tom Rider said:

New to this forum.  Love this show.  Great episode, but one thing here makes no sense.  Why in the world did Teach and Anne Bonny take a vanguard to Rogers' ship in the first place?  Their ship was twice the size of Rogers and could easily have destroyed it with cannon fire.  If the goal was to kill Rogers, it seems to me that would have been easily done.  This to me was one of the very few weak spots in the writing in this series.  From a purely tactical point of view, the entire exchange made no sense.

I think that scene was very loosely inspired by Teach's historical death.

While the show took quite a few dramatic liberties (the real Blackbeard was killed in battle, not executed, and by a lieutenant in the Royal Navy rather than by Woodes Rogers), the ship boarding played out similarly to Blackbeard's historical last moments.

During a sea battle with the Royal Navy, Blackbeard's ship fired two broadsides into it's opponent after the Royal Navy sloop got stuck on a sandbar. When the smoke cleared it appeared the broadsides had killed all of the Royal Navy men that had been on deck, leaving only Robert Maynard (the lieutenant) and a couple sailors left alive. Although Maynard had lost men to cannon fire (about a third of his crew), he had sent most of his men below decks during the cannonade as a clever ruse to lure Blackbeard to board. When Blackbeard led a boarding party onto the ship he thought they had effectively disabled, Maynard's crew sprung the ambush and attacked from below decks.  Blackbeard was killed in hand-to-hand combat with Maynard, after being shot five times and stabbed twenty, and the pirates that survived were taken prisoner. 

In the show they also had Blackbeard boarding a ship with a mostly empty deck, only to have men spring from below decks and take the boarding party by surprise. They gave Woodes Rogers' Maynard's ruse. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Scaeva

[Tom Rider]

@Scaeva.   I read the historical account of Blackbeard's death, and I agree with you about the writer's attempt to tie the history into the fiction.  It just didn't make sense to board the ship in the context of that moment in the show.  It's a really minor point I know, and for the most part the writers have done an awesome job of weaving history and fiction together.  They have changed many circumstances for historical figures throughout the length of the show, but none of them detracted from the story.  And after all, they did not set out to do a documentary... lol.  But if I was on Rackham's crew, I would have shot him as soon as he raised that white flag!  Having read the basic histories of most of the historical figures in this show, it does suck knowing how it will all probably end ;)

[tennisgurl]

Billy! You gorgeous bastard you, you came through! That was such a kick ass entrance to the fight, and now we have some more awkwardness between all our pirates. Now that they're all back on the same team, I feel like small talk is about to get weird. Of course, plenty of the characters have tried to kill each other and/or screwed each other over, and they usually get over it (or kill each other), so it'll hopefully work out.

Great episode this week, even though it was brutal as hell. Teaches death was nasty and one of the harder things to watch this show has put out. Still, Teach went out as badass as possible in those circumstances, even smiling a bit at dickhead Rogers before getting shot in the head. I will miss him on the show though. And, I knew, intellectually, that they were probably not going to kill Jack off (at least not right now), but when they started dragging him over to the side of the boat, I had five different heart attacks. The only good that would come of Jacks horrible death would be seeing Anne go on a wild and bloody revenge spree. Rogers would be shitting himself. Speaking of, what a little shit head. I always knew that guy had a dark side, and now we see his true colors. A nasty brute and a coward to boot. He clearly thought he was going to look all kinds of badass executing Teach, and instead he looked like a punk in front of all the pirates AND his own men. The British were all looking at each other like "this is whos in charge? This is who we`re putting our lives on the line for? This asshole?".

I am officially shipping Madi and Silver. I giggled like a moron when they dramatically embraced and kissed like they were in some kind of romantic period drama thing. I thought Flints expression was interesting. It was like he was a little awkward seeing this display of affection from people he respects and works with, but also some sadness? Like how pretty much everyone's he's ever made out with was killed or disappeared?

Max is stuck in a hard place again. At least Eleanor has her back again. For now anyway. I like Eleanor, but I never fully trust her, or her motives. At least I usually understand why Max does what she does. I also give her props for staying totally calm while Berringer screamed at her. She's been through shit that asshole could never comprehend, no way is she intimidated by this asshole.  

Edited February 13, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Tabasco Cat]

There was some real brutality in this episode. Unfortunately, Max wasn't on the receiving end. Her accent is like fingernails on a chalkboard. Max's demise is the only thing left that I want to see from this show before it ends. We've seen hangings, stabbings and keelhauling. If we have to suffer with her right through the final episode, please let her walk the plank while whining, "But I have the street!" Bah... most useless character in an excellent show.

[WatchrTina]

11 hours ago, Triskan said:

I must stay I freaked out for Jack.

Oh gosh, me too.  I'm aware that this is the last season so no one is safe (unless they play a featured role in the novel "Treasure Island").  I actually thought we might lose Teach AND Jack & Anne tonight.  Thank goodness that didn't happen.

21 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I raised both fists and yelled "BILLY!

Ditto!  I watched the second half of this episode on my feet, hugging myself from the excitement and when Billy showed up I let out a whoop.  The neighbors must think I'm nuts.

Tonight's episode was tense and touching (oh that kiss between John & Madi) and horrific and triumphant.  This is going to be one hell of a final season.

Edited February 13, 2017 by WatchrTina

[kay1864]

I read Rogers' shooting Teach as (finally) realizing that he had gone too far, and his own men were doubting his basic humanity.  And that he was proving to be worse than the pirates they decried.

How fitting that Berringer saw his world turned (literally) upside-down in the end.  Plus to die belly-up, the most vulnerable of positions.

[Ottis]

You know what I can't get over? How few individuals are deciding all these battles. you have 10-20 soldiers vs. a similar number of pirates, and the battle is won or lost in Nassau. Same on the boats. You get one Hercules-type fighter and it's over.

23 hours ago, Tom Rider said:

 Why in the world did Teach and Anne Bonny take a vanguard to Rogers' ship in the first place?  Their ship was twice the size of Rogers and could easily have destroyed it with cannon fire.  If the goal was to kill Rogers, it seems to me that would have been easily done.

Yeah, agree, and no idea. In fact, I don't know why Jack later surrendered once Teach was caught. Yes, he may have hurt Teach or Bonnie if he had opened fire, but did he think Rogers was going to let them go? You have them outgunned. Take advantage. Give Teach a fighting chance.

[snowwhyte]

Yeah, I would normally root for civilization over lawlessness. Rodgers is meant to represent the civilizing force of the British Empire but it's pretty clear that civilization actually meant oppression. The pirate aim of being free from an oppressive government is one we can root for but the methods they use and the people they sacrifice along the way make it hard for me to be 100% on their side. It does help that the English captain and Woodes Rodgers showed themselves to be so unlikable. 

[nodorothyparker]

Blackbeard's keelhauling has to be one of the most brutal things I've seen on TV this year.   Vikings played keelhauling mostly as yet another badass thing they did, but here there was absolutely no escaping just what a terrible barbaric thing it was to do to a human body as he came up more and more shredded each time.  That he survived three rounds of it and could go out smiling to deny Woodes the satisfaction and force him to finally put a bullet in his head only further cemented his legend while making Woodes look like a terribly weak monster to his men.

It was telling that all of this was preceded by Anne remarking that they were where they were because of Jack's need "to stand to next to giants."  Jack was busy patting himself on the back for finally positioning himself as Blackbeard's equal, only then to easily end up surrendering their ship after admitting he'd never captained a ship of that size before and narrowly getting to live only because the horror of putting Blackbeard down so rattled Woodes that he either forgot or abandoned his intention to keelhaul Jack as well.  We know that Jack has long been characterized by his overriding desire to run with big dogs like Blackbeard and Flint and Vane and this is where it's led him.

The Madi-Silver reunion was lovely, and Flint was clearly happy to see him as well.  Flint's been working pretty well with Madi and it will be interesting to see how that pans out going forward as he now realizes that Silver and Madi are not allies to be dealt with separately but a united front.  Methinks they're going to have A LOT to talk about with Billy after betraying them last episode only to make an 11th-hour rescue here.  At least Billy looked great doing it.  Also interesting will be Woodes probably next episode pulling into the harbor of an island he no longer has any control of with a boatload of pirate prisoners.

The actor playing Berringer and Toby Stephens are brothers so you know they had to be a little disappointed that they never got any scenes together and never got to fight each other, even at the end.  It was Israel Hands who got the honor of killing Berringer at Silver's nod.  

Eleanor was so very painfully naive this entire episode.  She was swanning about throughout as if she still had some official role or was someone whose opinion actually mattered about anything and didn't seem to catch on until the very end that Berringer did not give one hot damn about anything she said with Woodes away but would be perfectly happy to continue accepting any information she was so willingly handing over.  It also didn't help that she really didn't seem to be getting just how badly this could all turn out for Max.

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I am going to miss this show when it ends. 

Am I supposed to be rooting for the Pirates?  I find myself feeling sorry for them, and I don't think that is supposed to happen.  It seems like they have been getting the short end of the stick for quite awhile.  There aren't any white hats in this show to root for.

I don't get this.  Root for whoever you want to root for, it's a TV show, not Sunday school.

And at that time civilization meant oppression for many people, especially those who weren't white/male/upper class.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Neurochick

[ganesh]

On 2/12/2017 at 3:47 AM, Enero said:

Horrible way for Teach to go, but as been said, he took it like a boss, which in the long run may undermine Rodgers intent, especially with them now returning to an overrun Nassau. 

 

On 2/12/2017 at 7:28 AM, Neurochick said:

And he couldn't even kill Teach that way, he had to shoot him because his men were starting to see what a pussy Rogers is.

Did everyone notice how the rest of the crew were all like, "uh, that's three times" before Rodgers just took out the gun and popped him.

"You probably shouldn't hang people in the town square."

"I'm hanging people in the town square." Bye Felicia. 

I'm rooting for the pirates. I have been since the start of the show. I really really hope they show how Silver gets the parrot.

[Garnett7]

The irony for Eleanor is that she married the man who is actually every awful thing she accused Vane of being when she had him hanged. I never cared much for Rogers but now I full on hate him. I hope the writers will play with history as they have with the death of other characters (Vane, Hornigold) and let Jack get his hands on Rogers. It was a battle of wills between him and Teach and Rogers lost and knew it.

Billy!! Yay!! I'm glad he put his smart hat back on this season.

I am curious about one thing. Berringer said Silver killed the Underhills (the plantation owner of last week). We know he didn't. We know Flint didn't kill them either. So did Billy's people do it? Did they die in the fight with the militia?

Loved the Silver and Madi reunion. And the friendship that is starting to form with Flint and Madi. So lovely.

Silver and Flint riding into reclaim Nassau was badass.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Garnett7

[ganesh]

I don't really have a problem with Jack surrendering. They assumed Rodgers would follow whatever rules, and Jack was buying time, figuring if he got over there he could think of something. 

[WatchrTina]

13 minutes ago, Garnett7 said:

I am curious about one thing. Berringer said Silver killed the Underhills (the plantation owner of last week). We know he didn't. We know Flint didn't kill them either. So did Billy's people do it? Did they die in the fight with the militia?

Thank you!  I had forgotten how much that statement confused me.  I loved, loved, LOVED the episode but the last time we saw Billy he was heading into the teeth of what appeared to be a hopeless fight with a very large group of local militia.  How, exactly, did he get out of that?  And as for Berringer saying that the pirates killed the family that lived on the plantation they took -- I also wondered why he said that.  How could he possibly know?  Should we assume he just made an assumption that conveniently corresponded to his view of the pirates?  (In other word, was he just lying?)

[Neurochick]

I felt Berringer was lying about Silver killing the Underhills.  The only person we saw killed was the father.

[ulkis]

16 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Thank you!  I had forgotten how much that statement confused me.  I loved, loved, LOVED the episode but the last time we saw Billy he was heading into the teeth of what appeared to be a hopeless fight with a very large group of local militia.  How, exactly, did he get out of that?

With his biceps!

Good question.

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Eleanor was so very painfully naive this entire episode. 

 Her saying "why didn't you follow the law" to Max was funny. Okay, Eleanor.

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

The only person we saw killed was the father.

Actually, the father was sitting up, leaning back against the foot of the bed the last time we saw him.  He got shot in the shoulder.

[Slovenly Muse]

1 hour ago, ulkis said:

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Eleanor was so very painfully naive this entire episode. 

 Her saying "why didn't you follow the law" to Max was funny. Okay, Eleanor.

Yes, it's been interesting to watch her, with Rogers out of town. She has him wrapped around her finger (seriously, can he do ANYTHING without her? He's got no money, no connections, no strategy... he depends on her for EVERYTHING. Can't even properly keelhaul a damn pirate!) and without him there to manipulate, she has to work her wiles on others directly. Of course, she is still RIGHT, and is more effective at wielding power than Berringer (gets info out of Max without screaming in her face, for example), but is helpless to do anything when he won't listen to her. I dislike Eleanor as a character, but I have to admire the way she runs everyone. Her comments to Berringer about power are so poignant and true, as was his response. Typical Alpha-Male: Better to flail around like an incompetent puppet, smashing anything you disagree with, than to actually have REAL power that others don't necessarily see. This is certainly her (and Max's) approach to dealing with the men around her who think they are in charge. She is content to let them take all the credit, so that no one sees she's the one calling the shots.

I've believed since last season that Eleanor is the REAL Woodes Rogers. That is, we will see that most (if not all) of the accomplishments the historical Woodes Rogers is credited with, are actually Eleanor's doing, and Rogers is just the man she allows to be the public face of their efforts so that she can assert her influence in secret. So far, this season, even though it seems like she might actually have some feelings for him, my theory still holds. He's helpless without her. (The victory over the boarding party doesn't even count. Even chasing the ship in the first place was a real dumb-dumb move on the pirates' part. The pirates have threatened to block the harbour, and the navy sends out the ONE ship they'd be sure to follow, even though ANYONE could have gone to ask for help without getting pursued by the pirates? How much more obvious a trap could that have been? I blame Teach and Jack for being idiots more than I credit Rogers with a solid plan.)

I will end these thoughts with a reflection on how thankful (and mildly surprised) I am that it took us until the final season of this show before we saw a keelhauling. May it be the last!

[Ravenya003]

This was the first time I've felt a little bit ill while watching this show. Teach's death was brutal, but much like Vane's death, it had the OPPOSITE effect of what it was meant to. Now he's got a bunch of pissed off pirates just waiting for a chance to avenge their leader - it was the same mistake that Berringer made: make it a spectacle and getting everyone riled up as a result.

Yet for all of that, I liked that even Berringer - the biggest dickhead on the show - was given some poignant characterization with the locket of his wife and son (I'm guessing). That said, the moment he started staring at the two of them, I knew he was a goner. NEVER look at pictures of your loved ones in dangerous situations. It's the kiss of death. 

When Eleanor realized what was about to go down,  the "fuck this shit I'm OUT" song started playing in my head. I like that she immediately moved to save Max and the other lady, and I really hope all three of them make it out of this alive.  

Interesting that the writers chose Israel Hands to be the one to take out Berringer - I suppose from a narrative perspective, it was to give Silver/Flint a reason to trust him. 

The Silver/Madi reunion was lovely, and I noticed Flint's somewhat wistful expression. I'm very certain that Madi reminds him of Miranda - they both have the same regal, self-assured personality. 

Eme! I love it whenever she pops up. 

Billy! I cheered when he arrived, though the good feelings can't last (for anyone who's read Treasure Island,

Spoiler

his return is something of a step back when it comes to this show aligning itself with the book).

[GodsBeloved]

7 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I felt Berringer was lying about Silver killing the Underhills.  The only person we saw killed was the father.

I think Berringer was lying too.

The father lived. He was only shot in the shoulder. We see him sitting next to his wife and child when Billy joins them.

[JeffR]

Been loving the show since S01 but only the keelhauling scene has prompted me into action and join the forum. Had me watching through my fingers like I was a kid again, waiting to see what happens next and how many we'd see suffer the same fate. Awful but awesome sequence.

Agree totally with everyone else....Teach actually won that battle. And, by doing so, he saved (or won stay of execution) for Jack. Rogers should have either sent Teach down again or, once he'd killed him, done the same to Jack. Either one would have been a statement of who was the boss. He backed down. Showed some element of humanity that is a vulnerability in this sort of battle.

Great combination of history and fiction as always. Can't wait to see which way We'll see if the Jack/Anne story pans out as per history...

[WatchrTina]

I've often said the the expression "You look like something the cat dragged in" takes on new meaning when you actually have a cat and it does drag something in -- something dead and mangled.  It makes one less likely to use the express to describe someone who is merely, say, hung-over and disheveled.

The same can be said for two expressions that I've run into in historical fiction but never much thought about.  I never really understood what it meant to be tarred and feathered until that process was depicted in the HBO show, "Carnival."  It made me gag (literally).  And I've never really thought about what it meant to be keel-hauled.  I knew about the barnacles scraping the victim's skin and of course I understood the risk of drowning from the process.  But I never really understood the full horror of the process until now.

I like this show (no, I love this show) and I think the cinematography is amazing.  The underwater sequences are amazing.  The sets (those ships!) are amazing.  But damn, that depiction of keel-hauling was brutal.

I said way back in season one that I don't really know who I'm rooting for in this show.  Pirates are bad guys.  They steal and they murder as a way of life.  We've seen Flint be absolutely brutal to innocent, law-abiding people -- especially during his reign of terror after Miranda was killed.  But with scenes like that keel-hauling you just can't root for the so-called "good" guys -- the law-and-order, king-and-country contingent.  This show is fascinating in that respect.  No one is "good."  No one is "innocent."  And the alliances and loyalties are constantly shifting (hello Billy!)  Just fascinating.

[Neurochick]

Civilization in the eighteenth century was only good if you were white/male/upper class.

This series has shown that.  As for Flint stealing and killing innocent people, what about a so called civilization that felt slavery was okay?

I think some may have issues rooting for the pirates, because we think of civilization as it is today.  But civilization in the eighteenth century was brutal and oppressive for a lot of people.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Neurochick

[attica]

15 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

 That he survived three rounds of it and could go out smiling to deny Woodes the satisfaction

To be fair, he was only smiling because his lips had by then been ripped off. But: point taken.  And to that point, I gotta give a huzzah to the special effects crews. The keel-haul makeup and the sound effects of the scraping of the keel haul audible on deck? Extreeeeemely effective. 

I read Flint's reaction at the Silver/Madi reunion as just the smile of a satisfied 'shipper. The ol' softie.

On 2/12/2017 at 2:05 PM, Neurochick said:

 Did Israel Hangs hang Berringer upside down?  I couldn't tell that.

No, I don't think so. I think he just fell over the edge of the scaffold and bled out.

15 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The actor playing Berringer and Toby Stephens are brothers

OMG, I didn't know that! But now that I do, boy howdy, does Larkin look like his mom! (Toby looks more like his dad, imo.)

Billy's exactly-on-time arrival was as predictable as anything ever on teevee, but goddamn it, I too thrust my fist into the air and screamed in delight. 

16 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

I would normally root for civilization over lawlessness.

I think the recurring point of the show (besides awesome pirate action) is to demonstrate the forces and influences that break up empires. Remember that this all happens a few decades before the American Revolution; Flint's foreshadowing conversation with Madi made that point explicit. And, if Civilization is tyrannical to Self-Evident Truths, then lawlessness is its logical antidote. Or so I've heard.

One last thing: Zethu Dlomo is incanfuckingdescent as Madi.

[GodsBeloved]

9 minutes ago, attica said:

One last thing: Zethu Dlomo is incanfuckingdescent as Madi.

Prior to season 4, I went back and watched the previous seasons because of gifs of Madi on tumblr. She has not disappointed and I'm doubly glad that I enjoy the entire show.

[Juliegirlj]

Boooooo!!!! They already did a big pirate death to incite the masses with Charles Vane. Teach was a seasoned sailor and pirate and would never have given up the advantage, nor would he have allowed himself to be captured-he would have gone out fighting. 

Teach's pirates would have killed Rackham before they would agree to surrender. Kill Rackham and blow the Governor's ship out the water. 

So disappointing and an insult to the viewers and the characters. 

[DarkRaichu]

13 hours ago, ganesh said:

I don't really have a problem with Jack surrendering. They assumed Rodgers would follow whatever rules, and Jack was buying time, figuring if he got over there he could think of something. 

I could buy this.  It fit Jack's MO.  He has been shown as more of a thinker / planner than doer type.  Plus he could not risk harming the person he admired (Teach) and the person he loved (Anne).  Those 2 were the only ones he had left. 

 

8 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

The Silver/Madi reunion was lovely, and I noticed Flint's somewhat wistful expression. I'm very certain that Madi reminds him of Miranda - they both have the same regal, self-assured personality. 

I saw that but I also saw a split second later Flint was starting to figure out how to deal with Silver and Madi as a single united front.

 

I saw Joji (asian guy) on the beach pointing gun at Israel Hands after Flint killed the British soldiers.  I have to re-watch the battle on town square to see if he survived that. :D

 

Is it just me or the town looked smaller than in previous seasons?  I thought there were more buildings around the inn/brothel in past seasons

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I think some may have issues rooting for the pirates, because we think of civilization as it is today.  But civilization in the eighteenth century was brutal and oppressive for a lot of people.

I have zero issues rooting for the pirates. 

 

13 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I could buy this.  It fit Jack's MO.  He has been shown as more of a thinker / planner than doer type.  Plus he could not risk harming the person he admired (Teach) and the person he loved (Anne).  Those 2 were the only ones he had left. 

Actually I think if Anne wasn't on the ship, he would have opened fire again. Teach making him captain was basically giving him the authority to do that. I don't think Teach would have minded going down if he took Woodes with him. 

[Scaeva]

30 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

Boooooo!!!! They already did a big pirate death to incite the masses with Charles Vane. Teach was a seasoned sailor and pirate and would never have given up the advantage, nor would he have allowed himself to be captured-he would have gone out fighting. 

Teach's pirates would have killed Rackham before they would agree to surrender. Kill Rackham and blow the Governor's ship out the water. 

So disappointing and an insult to the viewers and the characters. 

Teach went down pretty much as he did historically, minus the surrender and execution bit. The historical Blackbeard was also caught at a disadvantage under similar circumstances, and his surviving crew surrendered after he was killed. 

[Tanya852]

1 hour ago, attica said:

Toby looks more like his dad, imo.

Noooo! lol Sorry. :) I just love how much he looks like his mom, 'cause his mom is awesome.

[FlowerofCarnage]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Civilization in the eighteenth century was only good if you were white/male/upper class.

This series has shown that.  As for Flint stealing and killing innocent people, what about a so called civilization that felt slavery was okay?

I think some may have issues rooting for the pirates, because we think of civilization as it is today.  But civilization in the eighteenth century was brutal and oppressive for a lot of people.

And heterosexual.

Edited February 14, 2017 by FlowerofCarnage

[Ottis]

17 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don't get this.  Root for whoever you want to root for, it's a TV show, not Sunday school.

And at that time civilization meant oppression for many people, especially those who weren't white/male/upper class.

I do get it. I've posted before that I don't quite understand the pirate perspective. I like the whole "freedom and under no man's thumb" thing, but along with it comes a lot of lawlessness and unnecessary waste. I don't think civilization/oppression have to go together, nor does freedom/piracy. On this show they do, and so I don't root for either side beyond the individual characters who I've grown to know. But I get why it's difficult to choose sides. Neither are all good, nor all bad.

While I know how "civilization" winning turns out, because history, I wonder how piracy winning would have turned out? Like Animal Farm? Or could it ever have won? 

[DarkRaichu]

12 minutes ago, Ottis said:

While I know how "civilization" winning turns out, because history, I wonder how piracy winning would have turned out? Like Animal Farm? Or could it ever have won? 

The delicate balance in season 1 with Eleanor fencing the stolen goods was about as good as piracy could get.  

The thing with piracy (of any kind) is they only take and never produce.  If the producers are fed up by their antics and stop producing goods, the pirates will literally be dead in the water  

[Neurochick]

57 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I don't think civilization/oppression have to go together, nor does freedom/piracy. On this show they do, and so I don't root for either side beyond the individual characters who I've grown to know. But I get why it's difficult to choose sides. Neither are all good, nor all bad.

Flint looks at civilization as HE sees it.  To him civilization took away both Thomas and Miranda.  

In a civilized society, Max and Madi would be slaves, Jack Rackham would still be working off his father's debt.  Civilization at that time looked the other way to all sorts of bad shit.  Civilization and oppression don't have to go together if it is allowed to evolve.  

47 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

The thing with piracy (of any kind) is they only take and never produce.  If the producers are fed up by their antics and stop producing goods, the pirates will literally be dead in the water  

Very true, which was why piracy of any kind, doesn't usually last multiple generations.

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

The thing with piracy (of any kind) is they only take and never produce.  If the producers are fed up by their antics and stop producing goods, the pirates will literally be dead in the water 

That's as far as I had made it in wondering about the long-term future of piracy. And then I wondered, could it evolve from there? Would that resemble feudal serfs, pledging loyalty with offerings (but all on the sea?)? Would a thieves code take hold and allow for societal growth? Dunno. I suppose you would have to have some pretty enlightened pirates. Which, to be fair, is what Black Sails offers us. 

[MaggieG]

Billy, you gorgeous creature! I was so happy when he walked in, guns blazing.

The keelhaul was absolutely brutal. When I was ten I was at the beach and accidently scratched my thigh on some coral that was underneath a buoy. I think I was trying impress some boy by swimming underneath the buoy LOL. Anyway, it bled like crazy and I still have a scar. I can't imagine getting cut over my entire body like that.

[attica]

Comparing Teach's keel haul with Rollo's (from Vikings), it's a whole different thing! Granted, Rollo only had to go under a longship (much narrower craft) and in fresh water (so, fewer marine critters clinging). No wonder he thought it refreshing!

[Ravenya003]

5 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I don't really have a problem with Jack surrendering. They assumed Rodgers would follow whatever rules, and Jack was buying time, figuring if he got over there he could think of something. 

There was a fantastic gif set on Tumblr that had Rogers/Jack looking at each other while the keelhaul was going on, with a quote from back in season three: when the two of them were in the carriage together (directly prior to Jack's rescue) Jack was going on about how he had read Rogers' book and so could work Rogers out. It was all very polite and civilised, but Rogers replied that he only wrote the parts of himself that he wanted people to know about. That was beautifully (though silently) referenced here, as you could TELL that Jack was looking at Rogers and thinking: "who the fuck is this guy?"

Another thing that a Tumblr pointed out: both Silver and Hands make fun of the fact that Silver can't run -- yet when he sees Madi, he does indeed run to her.