S34: Debbie Wanner

[scowl]

3 hours ago, fivestone said:

Because it was a nonviolent felony and she did her time. What, are people who go to jail or prison to never supposed to be out in polite society again, especially after they pay their debt to society?

Possibly. The place I work for will not hire convicted felons.

[kiddo82]

14 hours ago, laurakaye said:

But to what end?  Is she trying to convince her tribe that she's just kidding?  Is it a normal thing for her to scream at people, do rage push-ups, and then laugh it off?  Because it's not funny, it's freaking scary.

I don't know why but the term "rage push-ups" just gave me a giggle fit.  My sincerest thanks for that.

[cooksdelight]

6 hours ago, scowl said:

Possibly. The place I work for will not hire convicted felons.

Nor will mine. Mark Burnett must not have someone doing very good background checks. I'm pretty sure that's a huge red flag unless she lied on her application. If I can find out anything definitive, I'll post it.

[kikaha]

Didn't Vytas get convicted and spend time in prison?  I thought that came out his first season.  If so, clearly Survivor is willing to cast people with records. 

[fishcakes]

49 minutes ago, kikaha said:

Didn't Vytas get convicted and spend time in prison?  I thought that came out his first season.  If so, clearly Survivor is willing to cast people with records. 

He did a year for robbing a woman at an ATM. I would guess he's probably got some drug offenses on his record as well. He told Katie and Ciera about it as a way to try to manipulate them because, as he said in his creepy confessional, "women love a bad boy."

Survivor has no problem with criminals. They'll have Hatch back one of these days.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 hours ago, pfk505 said:

Hated her then, hate her now. A low-rent female version of FBI Phile.

Yep, and at least Phile was much more creative in his insanity.  Stealth r us, vision feather, gorilla and lion, Franchesqua, etc.  

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Nor will mine. Mark Burnett must not have someone doing very good background checks. I'm pretty sure that's a huge red flag unless she lied on her application. If I can find out anything definitive, I'll post it.

I am sure they knew about her convictions.  I am pretty sure they have Google.

Survivor is not really a workplace for the castaways so I don't think the producers are all that concerned with moral character, or criminal convictions.   They want people they think will give them interesting television.  To them, the worst character flaw you can have is being boring.     

Plus, Debbie's crimes were non-violent, so they wouldn't suggest she was a threat to the cast and crew, though her behavior makes me think she might be.  

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

They should do an ex-con tribe or entire cast some year.  White collar criminals vs. violents.  Fed vs. Oz.  

Great idea!  I was thinking Felons vs Law Enforcement, but I like your idea even better.  

[azshadowwalker]

13 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

From what I know about the application process, anyone previously convicted of a crime is ineligible. Or they were several seasons ago.

We have had people convicted of crimes on before, but I can't remember if they were felonies. Christa from Pearl Islands. Her arrest was even touted by CBS as "funny". Johnny Fairplay had a DUI. A few others, too, but they escape me right now. Would have to look at The Smoking Gun again. 

ETA: Forgot about Vytas, as mentioned above. His whole "reformed junkie vs Golden Boy Brother" was his BvW hook. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by azshadowwalker

[cooksdelight]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Crimes were non-violent, so they wouldn't suggest she was a threat to the cast and crew, though her behavior makes me think she might be.  

Ya think?? People willing to break the law, in any capacity, have no moral compass, in my opinion. I've seen it too many times, personally.

[fivestone]

11 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Nor will mine. Mark Burnett must not have someone doing very good background checks. I'm pretty sure that's a huge red flag unless she lied on her application. If I can find out anything definitive, I'll post it.

 

18 hours ago, scowl said:

Possibly. The place I work for will not hire convicted felons.

Hmph, what a shame. I guess that's another American concept that could use an overhaul. "Oh, you made some mistakes and had run-ins with the justice system? Lets make it really hard for you to make a living and be a productive member of society, and keep reminding you that you're a low-life nobody wants around. You're welcome!" Sheesh. No wonder there's such a high recidivism rate. There's so much of it that's about revenge or punishment, and not actually rehabilitating people. I'm glad Burnett or CBS or whoever relaxed the rules some, because I'm willing to bet that besides Debbie there are at least a couple other castaways over the course of the show who did jail or prison time. Anyway, it's too bad we've only gotten to see unstable hanging out at camp Debbie and not savvy Debbie who knows just what to say at tribal. I have to hand it to her, she held her own at tribal during her original season.

Edited March 31, 2017 by fivestone

[cooksdelight]

I see plenty of people who've done wrong, been convicted, spent time behind bars....come out and work and make a contribution to society. I know quite a few, they're good people when given the chance.

This, however, is an internationally-aired TV show where people are put into high-stress situations. Stress that might make one who's broken the law in the past not blink twice at bringing bodily harm to someone else in a place where they think the law doesn't apply to them. That is why I worry that Burnett and Company isn't doing a thorough job of screening the people they put into our living rooms, give them more than 15 minutes of fame, and possibly give them the thought that they might be able to get away with anything. JMO

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I wonder if posing for that mugshot is what Debbie refers to as her "modeling" career?

Can't stop laughing at this.

[peachmangosteen]

11 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

That is why I worry that Burnett and Company isn't doing a thorough job of screening the people they put into our living rooms, give them more than 15 minutes of fame, and possibly give them the thought that they might be able to get away with anything. JMO

I feel like there's literally no doubt this is true. Reality TV producers are all like this imo.

[LadyChatts]

3 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

We have had people convicted of crimes on before, but I can't remember if they were felonies. Christa from Pearl Islands. Her arrest was even touted by CBS as "funny". Johnny Fairplay had a DUI. A few others, too, but they escape me right now. Would have to look at The Smoking Gun again. 

ETA: Forgot about Vytas, as mentioned above. His whole "reformed junkie vs Golden Boy Brother" was his BvW hook. 

Kelly Wiglesworth was another one.  She had been arrested for assaulting her ex husband, and for skipping out on a check.  Apparently the charge of not paying her bill wasn't resolved when she went on the show.

I work in the hotel industry, and if you've been arrested for anything, your chances of getting hired are pretty slim (at least by my employer).  Especially if it's a theft charge.  Typically the only exception they make is if another employee knows them and can vouch.

Edited March 31, 2017 by LadyChatts

[cooksdelight]

9 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

They'd have to be pretty stupid to think laws don't apply out there and to hurt another player under nearly constant cameras.  Don't you think in all the game prep and contracts and rules, CBS makes it very clear that both US and local laws apply, as well as immediate expulsion for any physical aggression between players?  

I think having a camera crew filming makes this one of the safest environments from assault.  Not only is it documented but if anyone hurts you, I'm guessing the crew steps in on your behalf immediately.  

Contracts say a lot of things, doesn't mean the people believe they'll be held accountable. I've read a couple of accounts of players out of the U.S, on a US-based show, who didn't think they'd be in trouble if they did something unsavory outside the country. Google this type of thing.

[Bryce Lynch]

I found one nice thing to say about Debbie.  She is a good speller.  

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

Contracts say a lot of things, doesn't mean the people believe they'll be held accountable. I've read a couple of accounts of players out of the U.S, on a US-based show, who didn't think they'd be in trouble if they did something unsavory outside the country. Google this type of thing.

I believe it'd be like when Willie Hantz shoved a player on BB and was immediately removed, given it's the same network.  

You think someone would hurt another player on Survivor and not be held accountable?  The show would look the other way?  Why?  

[Giesela]

I still like Debbie. Or least don't have a problem with her.  Amazing that people hate her but not Jane who I think was soooo contemptible and gross. 

If I got on Survivor but didn't think I could win what would I do?  Everybody theoretically can win but the reality is far less so.  Surely some people realize that and even though you have to express "I' here for the million' I wonder how many have other goals, make the jury, get the 100,000, be someone with name recognition.   

I wonder how much of Debbie is an act.  She has been poor with what I gather is a very dysfunctional family for her whole life. What she has, schooling, being a Captain in the Civil Air Patrol etc. was probably hard won.   Getting on Survivor and any money she can make with appearances etc. is most likely a huge big deal to her and I wonder if acting crazy is part of trying to build a reality persona.  Honestly I have no idea.  She is probably annoying in real life, but so are soooo many men.   I think the dislike/hate here is  at least in part that shallow lazy hate for older unattractive women who don't conform to sweet mothers/grandmothers.  The fact that she occasionally blows up/acts dramatic  provides a thin justification.

Even if its not an act I wonder what set her off.  Clearly she lost focus on the million with her behavior.  I'll be interested in what Brad and Hali have to say in interviews about it.  

As an older woman who is not ugly but not particularly attractive being invisible and not heard can really warp you.  And it is definetly a thing, like black men getting stopped by cops, older unattractive women might as well not exist outside their roles as mothers.   Whether its the edit or reality, in Debbie's mind or most likely some mix of all of thise, she  is feeling invisible and dismissed.  I suspect that the shown challenge was just one more thing that tripped something.  

Edited March 31, 2017 by Giesela

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Giesela said:

I think the dislike/hate here is  at least in part that shallow lazy hate for older unattractive women who don't conform to sweet mothers/grandmothers.  The fact that she occasionally blows up/acts dramatic  provides a thin justification.

I totally agree about her acting crazy as a consolation prize and about less attractive people being slighted in society.  But speaking for myself, I love a strong older woman on Survivor, pretty or not, but the drama queen stuff is too much for me with her.  But I'm kind of like Malcolm in that the hams bug me.  I suppose it's better than a bunch of Sarahs walking around but not much.  

[Giesela]

6 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 I love a strong older woman on Survivor, 

Is it possible to be viewed a strong older woman who isn't also a wife and mother?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Giesela said:

Is it possible to be viewed a strong older woman who isn't also a wife and mother?

To me?  Sure.  The wife/mother thing means very little to me, unless the show or player makes it a big deal, like with Lisa and Dawn.  They tended to wear it like a weakness more than a strength, though, I think.  Well, Lisa the 'christian' thing more than the mom thing, I guess.  A weakness in the game, I mean.  "How can I backstab when I'm a loving mom/christian/whatever?"

Have there been any camp moms who got further for taking on that role?   It doesn't seem like a winning strategy, off the top of my head.  Not sure Sandra ever doted on anyone out there.  Maybe Tina?  Denise wasn't maternal.  Not Sophie or Kim or Dani or Parv...

[Special K]

31 minutes ago, Giesela said:

Is it possible to be viewed a strong older woman who isn't also a wife and mother?

Or more to the point, does Survivor ever cast them?   I mean women over, say 45, who aren't married or a mother? Can anyone think of one?  (Pretty sure Debbie is a mom.)

Edited March 31, 2017 by Special K

[simplyme]

16 hours ago, PrincessAndrea said:

Amen! I NEVER thought I'd be sympathizing with Brad of all people this season, but I gotta admit, he responded like a cool cucumber, as did the rest of the tribe.

Well, Brad has several children. I'm sure he's seen a tantrum or two in his day.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, fivestone said:

 

Hmph, what a shame. I guess that's another one American concept that could use an overhaul. "Oh, you made some mistakes and had run-ins with the justice system? Lets make it really hard for you to make a living and be a productive member of society, and keep reminding you that you're a low-life nobody wants around. You're welcome!" Sheesh. No wonder there's such a high recidivism rate. There's so much of it that's about revenge or punishment, and not actually rehabilitating people. I'm glad Burnett or CBS or whoever relaxed the rules some, because I'm willing to bet that besides Debbie there are at least a couple other castaways over the course of the show who did jail or prison time. Anyway, it's too bad we've only gotten to see unstable hanging out at camp Debbie and not savvy Debbie who knows just what to say at tribal. I have to hand it to her, she held her own at tribal during her original season.

Most companies get dozens of resumes/applications for most job openings and are looking for ways to pare down the list.  

There are also other concerns like the safety of the other employees and customers and preventing theft, liability if something goes wrong,etc.  

While you can blame recidivism on lack of job opportunities (and there is some validity to that) it also works the other way.  The fact that such a high percentage of released felons go back to committing felonies makes employers much more wary of hiring felons.  It is a complex problem and I don't really have the solution.

I have no problem with Survivor casting former felons, as long as they can ensure the safety of their other players and crew.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Special K said:

Or more to the point, does Survivor ever cast them?   I mean women over, say 45, who aren't married or a mother? Can anyone think of one?  (Pretty sure Debbie is a mom.)

Not sure but maybe Jane?  Shambo?  The older women often get sent packing so early, too, I probably don't remember most of them.  

[LadyChatts]

Quote

If I got on Survivor but didn't think I could win what would I do?  Everybody theoretically can win but the reality is far less so.  Surely some people realize that and even though you have to express "I' here for the million' I wonder how many have other goals, make the jury, get the 100,000, be someone with name recognition.   

This has become one of the things I've detested most about Survivor, is the whole character arc.  I think some people are more concerned with creating a name for themselves, a legacy, getting airtime, and being someone who will be asked back because they were a standout (for better or worse) in their season.  That and the people who exploit, or lie, about personal tragedies for airtime and sympathy.  Whether Debbie is truly acting 100% of the time or not, I don't know, but it's not amusing.  The revisionist history she gave for the RC made her look even more like a spoiled toddler.  I realize we only see a fraction of what goes on, but the one thing that did happen was she said she wanted to do the balance beam-and it did not take her 2 seconds to get across it.  As to the rest of your post, for myself, age, gender, race, religion, sexuality, etc, has never been a determining factor as to why I dislike a contestant.  Debbie could be a 20 year old blue eyed blonde and I'd still hate her for her persona. 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kathy from Micronesia admit lying about her mental health history because she was afraid they wouldn't cast her?  Then she ended up having a break down and quitting.  In terms of background checks, I would think on the mental health front there might be only so much they can do due to privacy laws.  In terms of those with a record, I would hope that TPTB have good judgment not to put someone out there with a violent past.  All it takes is someone to quickly snap.  CBS would probably settle any lawsuit brought forward, even if the contract says they are not responsible for anything happening, just to make the issue go away.

[Giesela]

2 hours ago, Special K said:

Or more to the point, does Survivor ever cast them?   I mean women over, say 45, who aren't married or a mother? Can anyone think of one?  (Pretty sure Debbie is a mom.)

Yes, I'm pretty sure Debbie has kids.  Her season I read quite a bit about her. 

My memory is terrible so I don't know.  I remember there was that season that had a vaguely older women goddess lesbian vibe, there was one older woman leader but other than that I don't remember much about her might have been someone on there.   Do you remember the season with the woman who worked in a school, like a janitor or cafeteria worker?  I think her name was Scout her that was the name of the Air Force master sergeant who basically decided her fate.  I remember wishing she had won but she had kids I'm pretty sure.  

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

To me?  Sure.  The wife/mother thing means very little to me, unless the show or player makes it a big deal, like with Lisa and Dawn.  They tended to wear it like a weakness more than a strength, though, I think.  Well, Lisa the 'christian' thing more than the mom thing, I guess.  A weakness in the game, I mean.  "How can I backstab when I'm a loving mom/christian/whatever?"

Have there been any camp moms who got further for taking on that role?   It doesn't seem like a winning strategy, off the top of my head.  Not sure Sandra ever doted on anyone out there.  Maybe Tina?  Denise wasn't maternal.  Not Sophie or Kim or Dani or Parv...

Yea you are kind of missing the point.  It isn't a conscious thing.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Giesela

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Giesela said:

 

Yea you are kind of missing the point.  It isn't a conscious thing.

Please explain the point.  What isn't a conscious thing?  People subconsciously view mothers as weak?  Or as strong?  Or non-mothers as one of those?  You totally lost me.  

3 hours ago, Giesela said:

Is it possible to be viewed a strong older woman who isn't also a wife and mother?

[violet and green]

4 hours ago, Giesela said:

I think the dislike/hate here is  at least in part that shallow lazy hate for older unattractive women who don't conform to sweet mothers/grandmothers.  

Can I get an amen in here?

4 hours ago, Giesela said:

The fact that she occasionally blows up/acts dramatic  provides a thin justification.

Also justification, apparently, for a diagnosis of NPD! The raving group-think all over the net regarding Debbie is quite ironic, given how lacking in empathy it all is - and lack of empathy is the signature call of narcissism, currently in epidemic proportions, culturally, in my view.

If Hali, or Michaela, or Sierra had blown up like this (which they wouldn't, as the pressures on them are different) it would be lauded as fierce. Debbie makes the mistake of not only being an older woman (always ripe for projection of unexamined, denied, and unconscious mother issues, maternal hatred, and that particular brand of cultural misogyny that glides by the younger woman) but a somewhat/sometimes unattractive older woman. The mockery around just her appearance alone, if she'd kept her mouth zipped the entire season, would never end.

[Vyk]

No, the dislike for her isn't because she's older or not conventionally attractive.  The reason for the dislike of Debbie is because she acts like spoiled, irrational brat when she doesn't get her way or doesn't want to own up to her mistakes or errors.  Plain and simple.

[violet and green]

It's given freedom because of her age, her sex, and her level of sexual attractiveness as a woman.

[peachmangosteen]

People hate Abi for much of the same reasons they hate Debbie and she is a young, attractive woman. Personally, I'm less fond of Debbie being on the show than I am of Abi because Debbie seems like she really has some huge emotional issues and it's just uncomfortable to watch her. Abi is a narcissistic asshole, but I don't get 'severe emotional problems' from her so it makes her easier to find entertaining.

I don't see any thinly veiled or even casual misogyny or ageism in this board's Debbie 'hate.'

Edited March 31, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[LanceM]

In addition to Abi, I'd say J'Tia was another attractive young female who people heated after she threw a fit and dumped out the rice in Cagayan. I am sure if I can think of others too.

Edited March 31, 2017 by LanceM

[violet and green]

43 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

People hate Abi for much of the same reasons they hate Debbie and she is a young, attractive woman.

Abi went off her nut and in a spiteful nasty manner and over trivial slights, according to her edit, every episode in her whatsit season. Debbie's gone tonto once. And spectacularly.

It was as if the collective was merely waiting for that moment. Unleash the dogs.

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

They should do an ex-con tribe or entire cast some year.  White collar criminals vs. violents.  Fed vs. Oz.  

No.

Phillip.

Just... no.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Nashville said:

No.

Phillip.

Just... no.

No, not federal agents... federal prison inmates (white collar criminals).  : )

[pfk505]

I'm a bit surprised that there are people who actually like Debbie.. I guess all contestants have some fans, but she is pretty much constantly irritating to me. She is a thinly veiled "character," complete with wacky backstories about former careers and generally weird life experiences. As I mentioned before, she's Phillip Sheppard, except crappier, more pathetic, and far less entertaining. Coach was the first of these manufactured characters, and I love the guy, but he was pretty transparent on his first go-around. So was Debbie. "Game changer" she wasn't.

7 hours ago, Giesela said:

I still like Debbie. Or least don't have a problem with her.  Amazing that people hate her but not Jane who I think was soooo contemptible and gross. 

What? Jane? First of all, I'm not sure why you even draw the comparison in the first place, but Jane was neither a fake attention-seeking blowhard nor was she worth even mentioning past the point of her one and only season on the show.

 

7 hours ago, Giesela said:

 I think the dislike/hate here is  at least in part that shallow lazy hate for older unattractive women who don't conform to sweet mothers/grandmothers.  The fact that she occasionally blows up/acts dramatic  provides a thin justification.

I'd say its a pretty thick justification. Combine that with the near constant, totally delusional confessionals in which her interpretation of reality is decidedly 100% opposite from the rest of the players, as well as most reasonable human beings. It has nothing to do with her age or gender. Would you characterize Denise Stapely in this same way? She kicked ass, played a decent game, won her season, and did so without playing to your stereotype. And she's pretty well liked to this day.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

No, not federal agents... federal prison inmates (white collar criminals).  : )

Ah, Club Fed.  Better.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

People hate Abi for much of the same reasons they hate Debbie and she is a young, attractive woman. Personally, I'm less fond of Debbie being on the show than I am of Abi because Debbie seems like she really has some huge emotional issues and it's just uncomfortable to watch her. Abi is a narcissistic asshole, but I don't get 'severe emotional problems' from her so it makes her easier to find entertaining.

I don't see any thinly veiled or even casual misogyny or ageism in this board's Debbie 'hate.'

Good analysis.  Belligerent, crazy people are generally not popular regardless of age, gender, race or if they have kids.  

[azshadowwalker]

7 hours ago, Giesela said:

My memory is terrible so I don't know.  I remember there was that season that had a vaguely older women goddess lesbian vibe, there was one older woman leader but other than that I don't remember much about her might have been someone on there.   Do you remember the season with the woman who worked in a school, like a janitor or cafeteria worker?  I think her name was Scout her that was the name of the Air Force master sergeant who basically decided her fate.  I remember wishing she had won but she had kids I'm pretty sure.  

Scout was on Vanuatu.  Don't know if she had kids. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by azshadowwalker

[cooksdelight]

Debbie needs a nickname, like Phillip was The Specialist.

I dub her The Revisionist.

[PrincessAndrea]

22 hours ago, Giesela said:

I think the dislike/hate here is  at least in part that shallow lazy hate for older unattractive women who don't conform to sweet mothers/grandmothers.  The fact that she occasionally blows up/acts dramatic  provides a thin justification.

I hope you're not taking my words and others' out of context, because I never said that Debbi was acting immature for her level of attractiveness, let alone if she was/wasn't acting "motherly" or "nurturing" enough. Honesty, getting back to Hali as an example again, if SHE had thrown the same type of tantrums, I would call her out for acting immature for her age just as well.

Really, anybody older than say the age of 7 (and that's even pushing it), shouldn't be ranting and raving during a challenge on how great they are ("Did you see me, Brad, did you see? I was the first person to get over the wall!!"). But yes, I would expect a person in their fifties, let alone twenties, to not throw a tantrum after THEY were at fault for losing a challenge, then blame it all on someone else while marching around camp like a bat out of hell just because they were anxious that THEY might be on the chopping block for losing. It really was grammar-school level pettiness on Debbi's part.

As for your (or someone else's?) inquiry if there's ever been an older woman that's made it far or even won without playing a motherly/nurturing role... well I've got one word for ya: DENISE! I don't believe she was even a mother to begin with, if memory serves me right.

[Maverick]

 I'd go with The Cackler.  Sounds more like a deranged Batman villain.   

[ProfCrash]

19 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

19 hours ago, Giesela said:

 

Please explain the point.  What isn't a conscious thing?  People subconsciously view mothers as weak?  Or as strong?  Or non-mothers as one of those?  You totally lost me.  

22 hours ago, Giesela said:

I think that people view older women as mothers automatically expect them to be caring and nurturing and comforting. When an older women ventures out from that archetype, people struggle with how to relate to her. Worse yet, the players struggle with how to relate to them. Kass has discussed this, as have Dawn and Lisa. 

Dawn and Lisa were burned at final tribal because they were seen as the tribe Mom and when the tribe Mom stabbed people in the back, those people took it very personally. So the tribe Mom is not allowed to play a game that involves deciet and back stabbing because it is seeing as an attack on personal trust that is not acceptable. Mom is suppose to be there to listen and comfort not use any information garnered in converstions to promote her game. She is suppose to put the others first.

Kass intentionally choose not to play as the tribe Mom. It was a deliberate decision on her part. She immediatly had problems because she was an older women who was a Mom and was not willing to play her archetype. It caused confusion among the players on her tribe. And then she went a bit bat shit crazy with her game play. To hear her tell it, she discussed it again on this season of Rob Has a Podcast, she had no choice but to make things chaotic because people wouldn't play with her as anything but a Mom. 

Debbie could be running into the same problem. It does nto help that she is delusional, she was her first time out so this is not a surprise. Jane was such a different woman that I don't think she had the same problem. I think Jane had more of the Tom Boy look so people seemed to look past the Mom role for her. And I did not like how Jane played the game but for totally different reasons then my dislike for Debbie and Kass. I think that Dawn and Lisa were screwed over by the Mom thing. 

If I were to ever play I would do my damndest to not be the tribe Mom and instead try and present myself in a different light but that can be hard to do.

[kikaha]

43 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Dawn and Lisa were burned at final tribal because they were seen as the tribe Mom and when the tribe Mom stabbed people in the back, those people took it very personally. So the tribe Mom is not allowed to play a game that involves deciet and back stabbing because it is seeing as an attack on personal trust that is not acceptable. Mom is suppose to be there to listen and comfort not use any information garnered in converstions to promote her game. She is suppose to put the others first.

Kass intentionally choose not to play as the tribe Mom. It was a deliberate decision on her part. She immediatly had problems because she was an older women who was a Mom and was not willing to play her archetype. It caused confusion among the players on her tribe. And then she went a bit bat shit crazy with her game play. To hear her tell it, she discussed it again on this season of Rob Has a Podcast, she had no choice but to make things chaotic because people wouldn't play with her as anything but a Mom. 

Debbie could be running into the same problem. It does nto help that she is delusional, she was her first time out so this is not a surprise. Jane was such a different woman that I don't think she had the same problem. I think Jane had more of the Tom Boy look so people seemed to look past the Mom role for her. And I did not like how Jane played the game but for totally different reasons then my dislike for Debbie and Kass. I think that Dawn and Lisa were screwed over by the Mom thing. 

If I were to ever play I would do my damndest to not be the tribe Mom and instead try and present myself in a different light but that can be hard to do.

Dawn got burned because she made intensely personal relationships with more than one juror -- and then stabbed them in the back.  This kind of hurt reaction is not limited to mother figures.  Boston Rob got the exact same treatment in all-stars.  Coach faced a similar problem his third season, and lost because of it. 

Lisa lost because she was sitting next to someone better at FTC -- another 'older' woman.  As soon as Lisa and Skupin went to F4 with Malcolm and Denise, they sealed their doom.  If they had brought Abi to the end -- which they almost certainly could have done -- Lisa probably would have won.  So that was simply bad strategy, not juror prejudice. 

Kass, of course, didn't reach the end of either season.  If Woo had chosen to sit next to her, she probably wins.  Whatever Kass says about expectations, that did not cost her game: not cultivating Woo enough did.   

Debbie isn't just turning her back on the 'mom' meme this season.  She's acting insane, showing she cannot distinguish reality from her own fantasies, attacking members of her tribe.  She's turned herself into a goat, who might well get dragged deep, because everyone knows she can't possibly win. 

Sandra has never acted like her tribes' mom.  Yet she's won twice.  Denise wasn't a mom -- more like the therapist she is in real life, who knows how to listen to others and give them feedback.  IMO the whole mom excuse is a rationalization, to try and explain failures in play.

[cooksdelight]

I don't care if Debbie is mother to cubs or kids. She's batshit crazy.

[303420]

On 3/31/2017 at 8:39 AM, cooksdelight said:

Ya think?? People willing to break the law, in any capacity, have no moral compass, in my opinion. I've seen it too many times, personally.

 

On 3/31/2017 at 10:47 AM, cooksdelight said:

I see plenty of people who've done wrong, been convicted, spent time behind bars....come out and work and make a contribution to society. I know quite a few, they're good people when given the chance.

 

Holy contradiction, Batman!!!

To me, Debbie is like dozens of criminals who assume they'll never get caught and figure it'll be no big deal if they do; they'll get a slap on the wrist or they'll explain it away. I drive really fast a lot of the time (the only way I'll ever drive at or under the speed limit is if I'm stuck in traffic), and I've been known to smoke pot in states where it's not legal. Part of the reason I'm willing to break those laws is that the consequences of doing so, particularly in combination with the likelihood of me being caught, is not an effective deterrent to me. On the other hand, I don't take pot outside of Colorado because the consequence if caught is too high (interstate trafficking). But I have plenty of friends who don't think twice about it. Anyway, in my experience, Debbie's particular felony is not indicia of her being dangerous to her tribemates.

1 hour ago, kikaha said:

Debbie isn't just turning her back on the 'mom' meme this season.  She's acting insane, showing she cannot distinguish reality from her own fantasies, attacking members of her tribe.  She's turned herself into a goat, who might well get dragged deep, because everyone knows she can't possibly win. 

Sandra has never acted like her tribes' mom.  Yet she's won twice.  Denise wasn't a mom -- more like the therapist she is in real life, who knows how to listen to others and give them feedback.  IMO the whole mom excuse is a rationalization, to try and explain failures in play.

 

Yes, yes yes to these two paragraphs. The comment also raises a discussion topic re: Sandra that I'll take to her thread.

[ratgirlagogo]

1 hour ago, kikaha said:

Sandra has never acted like her tribes' mom.  Yet she's won twice.  Denise wasn't a mom -- more like the therapist she is in real life, who knows how to listen to others and give them feedback.  IMO the whole mom excuse is a rationalization, to try and explain failures in play.

I'd agree.  Therapist is definitely a great real world job to prepare for winning Survivor - and I would add management consultant (Yul Kwon), and  bridal shop owner (Kim Spradlin) - both  jobs that involve handling (and manipulating!) often difficult people.

[Vyk]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 10:07 AM, PrincessAndrea said:

As for your (or someone else's?) inquiry if there's ever been an older woman that's made it far or even won without playing a motherly/nurturing role... well I've got one word for ya: DENISE! I don't believe she was even a mother to begin with, if memory serves me right.

Yes, she was.  She still is.  She has a young daughter.  I remember her going down to hug her and her husband when she won Philippines.

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 10:59 AM, ProfCrash said:

Kass intentionally choose not to play as the tribe Mom. It was a deliberate decision on her part. She immediatly had problems because she was an older women who was a Mom and was not willing to play her archetype.

Kass is a mom?  I never heard of her having children.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Vyk