S01.E15: Public Enemy No. 1

[Stuffy]

If the series is allowed to continue, I'd like to see Lucy turn her Cahill half-brother against Rittenhouse.  That'd really tick her creepy dad off.  I wonder if he's the only sibling she has in the current timeline.  

[LoneHaranguer]

4 hours ago, MrSmith said:

Most people who aren't into technology in the way she, Mason, and Rufus are would never dream you could cobble something together that would enable you to be so devastatingly effective.

They've never watched The A-Team or MacGyver?

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I didn't understand the "anytime" part. How can it know what happened in a time before computers?

They can't do the "anywhere" part either. There are very few traffic cams around and most don't send data anywhere; they're just there to augment the older road sensors that don't work well with cars made of aluminum and plastic.

[iMonrey]

Quote

What about Rufus in the first couple of episodes makes you think he would have been willing to kill Flynn's mother? And what happened since then that would make him lean more towards saving her?

My point is - if this had been the plan from the very beginning, we would have had a.) Rufus as the pilot and b.) someone else better suited to being a sniper/ assassin than Wyatt who could have gotten the job done on the first try, and c.) not Lucy, who is useless, but perhaps another soldier. At that point, Rufus would not have had any kind of emotional attachment to his "team" and shouldn't even have done anything besides take them there and take them back. Maybe he wouldn't have been "ok" with the plan but I don't think he would have refused outright to pilot the ship for the mission. I don't even think Wyatt would have objected to the plan to kill Flynn's mother if it had been suggested on Day 1 or on Day 2. It's only since the three of them have been through so many adventures they're now sticking together and putting their foot down and saying "we do this our way or not at all." That's not really how it should work, I hate to say. The new guy might be a "villain" but he's got a better plan than Christopher ever did. And they should have been training replacement pilots all along - someone else would have been ready by now.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, henripootel said:

I'm not sure 'infiltrated' is even the right word - sounds like they kinda are the government.

Yeah, I couldn't come up with a better word for Rittenhouse today. It infiltrated centuries ago.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Timeless Goes Back To Chicago To Set Up What Will Be

But on the eve of the season finale, let's rank a few things that might have been.

[Shanna Marie]

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

My point is - if this had been the plan from the very beginning, we would have had a.) Rufus as the pilot and b.) someone else better suited to being a sniper/ assassin than Wyatt who could have gotten the job done on the first try, and c.) not Lucy, who is useless, but perhaps another soldier. At that point, Rufus would not have had any kind of emotional attachment to his "team" and shouldn't even have done anything besides take them there and take them back. Maybe he wouldn't have been "ok" with the plan but I don't think he would have refused outright to pilot the ship for the mission. I don't even think Wyatt would have objected to the plan to kill Flynn's mother if it had been suggested on Day 1 or on Day 2. It's only since the three of them have been through so many adventures they're now sticking together and putting their foot down and saying "we do this our way or not at all."

I don't see that at all. I can't imagine Rufus ever being okay with piloting the ship on a mission to kill a child or an innocent woman. I don't imagine Wyatt ever being okay with that plan. He wasn't even planning to kill the parents of the man he thought was his wife's killer, and he completely freaked out when he did kill the father. I think any of them would have put their foot down and not becoming involved at all if they'd known that was the plan.

Besides, killing innocent people in order to maybe stop something in the future from happening is exactly what Flynn is doing. They'd be doing what Flynn is doing in order to stop Flynn from doing what they're doing. That's a difficult ethical call to make, which is why that only became their mission with the regime change.

[Dowel Jones]

7 hours ago, henripootel said:

have Lucy take the slow path and catch up the old-fashioned way, by hanging out in 1962 for a few days.

And then she would meet Flynn's father, get impregnated, and have to remain in 1962 because who knows what would happen to a fetus if it went through time travel.  And so Flynn is born anyway, albeit with different characteristics.

[MrSmith]

20 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

And then she would meet Flynn's father, get impregnated, and have to remain in 1962 because who knows what would happen to a fetus if it went through time travel.  And so Flynn is born anyway, albeit with different characteristics.

LOL. That would make the show very interesting!

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

And then she would meet Flynn's father, get impregnated, and have to remain in 1962 because who knows what would happen to a fetus if it went through time travel. 

I would hope that the first rule of time travel is "Don't have sex." That way you don't end up getting entangled with anyone in the past, giving birth to or fathering your own ancestor (or your potential love interest's ancestor), or giving birth to or fathering your enemy.

Well, maybe the second rule, since the first would have to be "Don't kill your own ancestors."

[methodwriter85]

Flynn wasn't conceived in 1962. If we're going by the show rules, Flynn wasn't conceived or born until AFTER summer 1972.

Over on Twitter, Eric Kripke said that they killed off Elliot Ness because they wanted to bring in a guy you thought would be the hero, but then shock us by having him die. And that, in a nutshell, is the most frustrating thing about the show. They'll kill off important historical figures (Cornwallis, Elliot Ness) for shock value, but then have nothing of consequence happen.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't see that at all. I can't imagine Rufus ever being okay with piloting the ship on a mission to kill a child or an innocent woman.

I didn't say he'd be OK with it. I said he'd probably do it anyway if all he had to do was pilot the ship back in time then bring the snipers back home. He himself would not be actively involved in the mission beyond that. Let's not forget in the beginning Rufus was under the impression that Anthony had been kidnapped by Flynn, so he had no qualms about taking Flynn out by whatever means necessary. 

The problem is that Mason and Rittenhouse have allowed Rufus, Wyatt and Lucy to more or less hijack the mission by refusing to do as they are told because they are the "only" people who can do it. I think we have all remarked that Wyatt should have been replaced after his fourth or fifth failed attempt to take down Flynn, and Christopher was only prevented from doing so by  . . . Rufus and Lucy, who refused to continue without him. They should never have been allowed to gain that kind of control over the mission.

Rufus was also initially so terrified of what Rittenhouse would do to his family that he agreed to secretly record their missions. He didn't gain the self-confidence to tell Rittenhouse to shove it until about halfway thru the season. So he was infinitely more pliable in the beginning.

This whole thing could have been nipped in the bud on Day 1 or Day 2 if they'd done what the new guy just now proposed. Rufus wouldn't have even needed to know exactly what they were planning. If he were ordered to pilot the lifeboat by Mason, in order to save Anthony and take down Flynn, he would have done it, period. He may not have liked it, but he would have done it. But now he's all emo and "we're team Lucy and we don't do things that way" about everything. It's kind of bullshit.

Edited February 15, 2017 by iMonrey

[Sandman]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I would hope that the first rule of time travel is "Don't have sex." That way you don't end up getting entangled with anyone in the past, giving birth to or fathering your own ancestor (or your potential love interest's ancestor), or giving birth to or fathering your enemy.

Well, maybe the second rule, since the first would have to be "Don't kill your own ancestors."

Exhibit A: Robert A. Heinlein's short story "'--- All You Zombies ---.'"

Edited February 15, 2017 by Sandman
Zombies, not Monsters

[waving feather]

8 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Or how 'bout: "Lucy, what's the matter? It's me, Wyatt. Don't you recognize your own brother?"

LMAO. Poor Lucy then, in love with her own bother!

[KaveDweller]

14 hours ago, Eneya said:

OK, I am really confused by the "it will not be the same baby"... why not?
In order to change something about someone, changing their date of conceiving is not enough... it places too much value of nature when we know that nurture is what affects people quite a lot. Especially since we are not changing the genetic makeup of a person drastically. Preventing the meeting of Flynn parents? Yes. Changing his school/country/hobbies/making it so he doesn't meet his wife? Those would work... Messing around with the date of conceiving the kid.... wouldn't matter.

This is why I don't see how and why Lucy's sister wouldn't be the same if her mother meets again her father and history is again changed.
People are not so simple so something so minute to affect them THAT drastically.

The way you are raised does have a big impact, but I think the point is that even if Lucy comes back to have a sister that had things in common with Amy, she wouldn't be the same person. There would be a lot of changes in her both genetically and in personality.

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I didn't say he'd be OK with it. I said he'd probably do it anyway if all he had to do was pilot the ship back in time then bring the snipers back home. He himself would not be actively involved in the mission beyond that. Let's not forget in the beginning Rufus was under the impression that Anthony had been kidnapped by Flynn, so he had no qualms about taking Flynn out by whatever means necessary. 

It's true that they have gotten comfortable putting their foot down as a group, but I don't think any of them seemed like they wouldn't have been willing to make a demand like that early on. They didn't get asked to be do anything they were against, so we didn't get to see it. But neither Rufus or Lucy struck me is the type of person who would do something they didn't believe in just because they were told to. The fact that they were so comfortable demanding Wyatt stay that early on, shows they had it in their personality to do it whenever.

There is a difference between being okay taking Flynn out by any means necessary, and taking out his innocent mother.

[legaleagle53]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I f this is to be a one-season show, I think they really missed the Life boat by not having someone from the past either stowaway or get kidnapped to the present.

And then how do you return said person to the same time that he/she left without violating the rule of not going back to a time in which you've already existed (particularly the stowaway/kidnappee)?

10 hours ago, Stuffy said:

If the series is allowed to continue, I'd like to see Lucy turn her Cahill half-brother against Rittenhouse.  That'd really tick her creepy dad off.  I wonder if he's the only sibling she has in the current timeline.  

Wait a minute -- what half-brother?  Lucy only had a half-sister.

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

My point is - if this had been the plan from the very beginning, we would have had a.) Rufus as the pilot and b.) someone else better suited to being a sniper/ assassin than Wyatt who could have gotten the job done on the first try, and c.) not Lucy, who is useless, but perhaps another soldier.

I wouldn't call a historian whose job it is to tell the rest of the team the lay and the Who's Who of the past era they're in "useless,"  She serves the very important function of making sure that history stays intact by telling them what is -- and more importantly, what isn't -- supposed to happen.

Edited February 16, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Camera One]

Over on Twitter, Eric Kripke said that they killed off Elliot Ness because they wanted to bring in a guy you thought would be the hero, but then shock us by having him die.

Maybe he could have put more thought into switching up the format of the show rather than such a pointless "shocking" twist.

He's encouraging people to spread the word to ensure people watch live, but this is a case where it's the quality of the writing that drags the show down.  Ironically, I think this show deserves another season way more than his previous horrible series "Revolution", which I hated in Season 1 but I kept watching until the end because... who the hell knows why.

[Stuffy]

31 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

And then how do you return said person to the same time that he/she left without violating the rule of not going back to a time in which you've already existed (particularly the stowaway/kidnappee)?

Wait a minute -- what half-brother?  Lucy only had a half-sister.

I could be wrong, but I figured the guy who answered the door when she went to Cahill's house was her brother. That first time when she chickened out of talking to Cahill.

 

edited to add.....

I checked Hulu to find the episode for you. Lucy goes to Cahill's at the end of Watergate episode the first time. A boy answers the door and calls for dad then Lucy's dad shows up. 

Also watching back the kid looks more like a relative to Lucy than anyone else has so far on the show. They had the same hair and eye color. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Stuffy

[Randomosity]

8 minutes ago, Stuffy said:

I could be wrong, but I figured the guy who answered the door the first time she went to Cahill's house was her brother. That first time when she chickened out of talking to Cahill.

I'll check on demand to see which episode. 

I believe so. I feel like he called 'dad' and creepy Cahill showed up or something, ergo little bro.

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, Randomosity said:

I believe so. I feel like he called 'dad' and creepy Cahill showed up or something, ergo little bro.

Y'all are right. I'd forgotten about the kid.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

And then how do you return said person to the same time that he/she left without violating the rule of not going back to a time in which you've already existed (particularly the stowaway/kidnappee)? . . .

I think if they returned the person to any time after the stowing away/kidnapping that it would be okay because the stowaway/kidnappee would have disappeared from that part of their future. The tricky part would be if, after being returned to his/her time period, s/he lived long enough to encounter the younger self from before the return.

[Raja]

On 2/13/2017 at 8:08 PM, ketose said:

Let's see. Flynn gets what he wants. Team Eyeball does nothing but get Capone killed at the cost of Elliot Ness' life. Fewer people would have died if they went back to 1962 and killed Flynn's mother. Plus, they could have shot the special forces guy after the mission and traveled to the location of the mother ship, blew up the lifeboat, taken the mothership back to get Lucy's mom married and hooked on smoking again, then blown up the mothership when they got back.

Now, Flynn would never exist, so wouldn't Rittenhouse have the time machine after that? No, because I still think Flynn's murderous rampage throughout history made Rittenhouse evil.

Next week is the finale, so I'm guessing we'll never really learn anything.

So you get the question would you kill Hitler if you knew he was going to grow up to be Hitler. I am thinking what is this The Terminator where all they had was a city and a name. It might be squeamish for audiences but before the 1990s it was much easier to get at a kid in the 1960s than a young adult woman, we didn't have helicopter parenting. A mistake the Terminator franchise corrected in its second act. But that Rittenhouse expected two civilians and "a soldier" to just assassinate some random woman because she must be bad , she raised a monster left me with a huh wait a minute feeling.

[Camera One]

They could have *told* Lucy and Rufus they were going to prevent Flynn's mother from meeting her father, and then the commando guy could be given orders to kill her.  Everyone is pretty much holding the idiot ball.

I just remembered that last week's cliffhanger (the notebook) didn't even show up this week.  If you tease something that isn't even relevant the week after, why would viewers come back?

Edited February 16, 2017 by Camera One

[iMonrey]

Quote

I wouldn't call a historian whose job it is to tell the rest of the team the lay and the Who's Who of the past era they're in "useless,"  She serves the very important function of making sure that history stays intact by telling them what is -- and more importantly, what isn't -- supposed to happen.

Given the myriad historical figures that have been killed anyway - and the fact that none of it seems to affect the timeline whatever - it seems that Lucy's inclusion on these trips is, indeed, proving to be quite pointless. They would be much better served by ditching her in favor of another soldier/assassin. Maybe they would have gotten Flynn by now.

RE: whether or not it's morally wrong to kill Flynn's mother, it boils down to whether or not, given the chance, you would be willing to go back in time and kill Hitler's mother. Would you? I would. And at this point, they have gotten so many other people killed as a result of chasing Flynn that by just killing that one person - his mother - they would undo all those killings and restore all the normal timelines.

Quote

are correct in that NBC has given many awful series a second season not just Revolution but the convoluted Blacklist with the God awful acting of a female lead. 

Well, that's not encouraging, because Revolution got even worse after they renewed it. Instead of fixing what was wrong with it, they actually doubled down on what was wrong with it. Clearly the suits at NBC have no clue why a show works or doesn't work.

[ketose]

Not to defend Hitler, but it would be a major change globally over 3 generations to kill Hitler. No Hitler might mean World War 2 was with the Soviet Union. There's a good chance I'd never been born because my grandparents probably wouldn't have met. The best case scenario is that many more people live and don't suffer than the ones who will die or never be born in this new reality. At least with Flynn, they are protecting the reality that's already set. Flynn's argument is that Rittenhouse is worse than Hitler.

[Randomosity]

4 hours ago, lark37 said:

I will never understand the love by critics and viewers for NBCs This Is Now. I bailed on that one after its mid season finale with the " shocking" twists of grandpa is dying but although never any hint of it, is now gay, Toby has a heart attack on Christmas, yuck. Talk about contriving the story line so you can have shocking tear jerking twists! At least Timeless doesn't pretend to be real life! I hope it gets one more season to resolve the plot lines. 

It's called "This is Us" but I'm with you on the confusion regarding everyone else's love for it. I stuck it out a little longer than you, but the past two weeks have made me pretty much jump ship. Well, the weeks prior to this week, because I've yet to be inclined to pop it up on the DVR. I much prefer Timeless to that show, even with all the faults on this one.

[djinn]

On February 15, 2017 at 3:01 PM, methodwriter85 said:

Over on Twitter, Eric Kripke said that they killed off Elliot Ness because they wanted to bring in a guy you thought would be the hero, but then shock us by having him die.

That sounds like a very Kripke thing to do. He still thinks a quick shock in an episode is better than long-term well-planned writing. With his third series, he seems quite set in his formula. I thought the team interacting with the Lone Ranger in an earlier episode was FAR better than the pointless killing of Ness in this one.

The story in Timeless is an utter and complete mess now, with Rittenhouse, Flynn, tons of death. I am still watching only for the three leads and their chemistry. But replacing Agent Christopher with the current over-the-top villainous dude is starting to really, really grate.

[elle]

On 2/14/2017 at 8:02 AM, PreviouslyTV said:

But on the eve of the season finale, let's rank a few things that might have been.

View the full article

This is about the article linked to this episode.

I found the suggestion made in this article regarding Waylon Jennings upsetting.  It has been well documented in interviews that Waylon Jennings was deeply, profoundly affected by the death of his friends in that plane crash.  He had willingly given up his seat J. P. Richardson and had joked with Buddy Holly just prior to their departure.  Jennings suffered from survivor's guilt that colored the rest of his life.   

To suggest that he would be responsible, actively sabotaging the plane, is disrespectful to the man, his memory, and the tragedy that touched so many.

[Camera One]

Quote

Given the myriad historical figures that have been killed anyway - and the fact that none of it seems to affect the timeline whatever - it seems that Lucy's inclusion on these trips is, indeed, proving to be quite pointless. They would be much better served by ditching her in favor of another soldier/assassin.

I suppose they could argue that time travel changes are unexpected, and you never know what events she did keep intact might have averted wholesale changes.  Lucy is often useful when unexpected events happen and they need to course-correct.  Without her, they would never have known to go to Al Capone's brother.  Without her, it would be harder to find Flynn because Lucy is often able to identify what has changed and what Flynn might have done and where.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Camera One

[KaveDweller]

23 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

And then how do you return said person to the same time that he/she left without violating the rule of not going back to a time in which you've already existed (particularly the stowaway/kidnappee)?

You just have to return them at least a day or two after they left, and then they won't be in the same time. Maybe a couple months to be safe, they haven't totally defined how literal same time is.

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Given the myriad historical figures that have been killed anyway - and the fact that none of it seems to affect the timeline whatever - it seems that Lucy's inclusion on these trips is, indeed, proving to be quite pointless. They would be much better served by ditching her in favor of another soldier/assassin. Maybe they would have gotten Flynn by now.

Lucy was the one who knew: 

• How to find Lone Ranger guy when they needed help going after Jesse James
• To go to Capone's brother to get to him, knew where Lindbergh was supposed to land
• Which other people were in danger when Flynn went back to re-kill Lincoln
• The importance of the letter in the Alamo episode, and was able to write it
• That Rufus and Wyatt were in the murder hotel, and was smart enough to find Houdini to help

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, elle said:

This is about the article linked to this episode.

I found the suggestion made in this article regarding Waylon Jennings upsetting.  It has been well documented in interviews that Waylon Jennings was deeply, profoundly affected by the death of his friends in that plane crash.  He had willingly given up his seat J. P. Richardson and had joked with Buddy Holly just prior to their departure.  Jennings suffered from survivor's guilt that colored the rest of his life.   

To suggest that he would be responsible, actively sabotaging the plane, is disrespectful to the man, his memory, and the tragedy that touched so many.

To say nothing of the fact that when I want an editorial, I will actually READ the editorials.  This recapper seems to  have missed the point of recapping the show, which is NOT to give him/her license to go off-topic onto whatever tangent he/she feels like.  The point of recaps is to tell me what actually happened in the episode, not to tell me what the recapper WISHES had happened or will happen in the future.

[elle]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

To say nothing of the fact that when I want an editorial, I will actually READ the editorials.  This recapper seems to  have missed the point of recapping the show, which is NOT to give him/her license to go off-topic onto whatever tangent he/she feels like.  The point of recaps is to tell me what actually happened in the episode, not to tell me what the recapper WISHES had happened or will happen in the future.

Editorials or articles are a feature of this site and are linked to an episode along with a recap of that episode.  I understand your frustration, but that was not the reason behind my post.  I wanted to point out that using someone closely involved in a tragedy, a name, for a plot point dismisses the pain and cost that tragedy had on the survivors.

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Lucy was the one who knew: 

• How to find Lone Ranger guy when they needed help going after Jesse James
• To go to Capone's brother to get to him, knew where Lindbergh was supposed to land
• Which other people were in danger when Flynn went back to re-kill Lincoln
• The importance of the letter in the Alamo episode, and was able to write it
• That Rufus and Wyatt were in the murder hotel, and was smart enough to find Houdini to help

Actually, I think that, with the exception of the last one, all of that information could be derived from a quick printout of various Wikipedia pages at the least.

[henripootel]

1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

4 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Lucy was the one who knew: 

• How to find Lone Ranger guy when they needed help going after Jesse James
• To go to Capone's brother to get to him, knew where Lindbergh was supposed to land
• Which other people were in danger when Flynn went back to re-kill Lincoln
• The importance of the letter in the Alamo episode, and was able to write it
• That Rufus and Wyatt were in the murder hotel, and was smart enough to find Houdini to help

Actually, I think that, with the exception of the last one, all of that information could be derived from a quick printout of various Wikipedia pages at the least.

Worth noting too that most all of these 'solutions' required a heavy dose of contrivance by the writers.  I mean who knew that the Lone Ranger guy could induced to help, or would be capable of tracking James in timely fashion.  What were the odds that Capone's brother could be inveigled to act, that Lucy was right that Flynn would see it necessary to attack the others besides Lincoln, that the letter was absolutely necessary to properly frame the Alamo incident (rather than simply the thing that did so in our timeline), or that Houdini would actually turn out to be pretty helpful (to say nothing of willing to help).   Lucy may be a font of (suspiciously) broad and accurate historical info, but it's the writers who're doing most of the heavy lifting here. 

[Randomosity]

5 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Actually, I think that, with the exception of the last one, all of that information could be derived from a quick printout of various Wikipedia pages at the least.

But that's the point - Lucy has those Wikipedia pages in her head. You don't know ahead of time what specific things might come up, and Rufus/Wyatt can't exactly whip out their smartphone for Google when the letter at the Alamo (etc.) suddenly becomes an issue. So you bring Lucy.

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, elle said:

Editorials or articles are a feature of this site and are linked to an episode along with a recap of that episode.  I understand your frustration, but that was not the reason behind my post.  I wanted to point out that using someone closely involved in a tragedy, a name, for a plot point dismisses the pain and cost that tragedy had on the survivors.

And if the recapper had just stuck to recapping the episode rather than going off on an irrelevant tangent, there would have been nothing for you to point out.  That's MY point.

[henripootel]

1 hour ago, Randomosity said:

But that's the point - Lucy has those Wikipedia pages in her head. You don't know ahead of time what specific things might come up, and Rufus/Wyatt can't exactly whip out their smartphone for Google when the letter at the Alamo (etc.) suddenly becomes an issue. So you bring Lucy.

The counterpoint being - Lucy has those Wikipedia pages in her head.  Her version of history includes her having a sister, Booth being the assassin of Lincoln, and a million other 'facts' that are no longer true.  Let's call them 'alternative facts' (because that phrase never got anyone in trouble), but Lucy's version of history is no longer the version of history in the current timeline.  Well, she's probably spot on for periods older than anyone has time-travelled to, but anything after that are suspect, even for events nobody tried to change.  People going back in time re-runs the 'tape' of history so-to-speak so the least likely thing by far is that everything is exactly the same as it was in our version.  Big things probably remain largely the same, so Pearl Harbor likely still happened, but exactly who died might change a little and the effects downstream may be significant. 

The best thing for them to do is have the Eyeball download wikipedia so they can check it if they need to.  Might even be fun, if Lucy checks it and finds out that the history she remembers keeps changing on her.  Lucy'd still be useful because she knows what questions to type in but she of all people should know her recollection is not to be relied on. 

[green]

2 hours ago, Randomosity said:

But that's the point - Lucy has those Wikipedia pages in her head. You don't know ahead of time what specific things might come up, and Rufus/Wyatt can't exactly whip out their smartphone for Google when the letter at the Alamo (etc.) suddenly becomes an issue. So you bring Lucy.

Well really the only reason Lucy is on the team is because she is a Rittenhouse heir.  There are plenty of people who could do her job far far better.  Been far better versed in history and could be a marksman as well say.  For whatever plot-line reason the Rittenhouse people or at least her father wants her on the team.  Given the bad ratings we probably will never know why.

I missed this episode this week because it has gotten so silly I forgot it was on.  I'll try to watch the finale because it could well be THE finale given poor ratings coupled with that judge upholding the right of the Spanish show to sue the producers/NBC for plagiarism as well ... see media thread. 

Honestly the Spanish show sounds far more interesting with 2 of the 3 member team not from the current time.  This show should have stolen that bit too and have given us Houdini and bad girl Bonnie to go traveling with Rufus instead.

Edited February 17, 2017 by green

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, henripootel said:

The best thing for them to do is have the Eyeball download wikipedia so they can check it if they need to.  Might even be fun, if Lucy checks it and finds out that the history she remembers keeps changing on her.

The team bounces around time, and Lucy is always able to pull out just the right information to keep the the mission going. I really want her to suggest something and it doesn't exist anymore because of changes that happened due to previous trips. We never see the butterfly effect.

[Netfoot]

11 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

knew where Lindbergh was supposed to land...

Yes, but everybody knows this one, right?

[henripootel]

29 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I really want her to suggest something and it doesn't exist anymore because of changes that happened due to previous trips. We never see the butterfly effect.

That's the kind of clever writing I was really hoping for, but I'm guessing we'll never see.  Say they went to Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, and ... nobody was there.  That's because when they went back in time (say to the 30s but they can't be sure), the timeline re-set and this time JFK got a cold and decided to skip Dallas.  And everything changed.  But JFK was assassinated anyway by someone else in Pittsburg, meaning it had to be Rittenhouse (who just found another shooter).  Supernatural managed some pretty complicated plots so there's no reason Kripke couldn't have put some in this show, yet we get a time-travel show about people trying to change history where history barely changes.  

[Camera One]

Her version of history includes her having a sister, Booth being the assassin of Lincoln, and a million other 'facts' that are no longer true.  

While that's a good point, so far, her knowledge hasn't changed and having her as a reference is better than being completely in the dark.

The best thing for them to do is have the Eyeball download wikipedia so they can check it if they need to.  Might even be fun, if Lucy checks it and finds out that the history she remembers keeps changing on her.  Lucy'd still be useful because she knows what questions to type in but she of all people should know her recollection is not to be relied on.

I do like that idea, but it would slow them down to constantly go back to the Eyeball.  I suppose they could carry an electronic device with them with an encyclopedia and other books downloaded, but that would also slow them down.  Regardless, having a historian like Lucy on the team would still help in that scenario, since she would know what to look up and she would know the context of the information.

Worth noting too that most all of these 'solutions' required a heavy dose of contrivance by the writers.  I mean who knew that the Lone Ranger guy could induced to help, or would be capable of tracking James in timely fashion.  What were the odds that Capone's brother could be inveigled to act, that Lucy was right that Flynn would see it necessary to attack the others besides Lincoln

No, but Lucy has offered them options and choices.  Some of her suggestions didn't work out, such as seeking out Ness.  But they still need someone like her to suggest it.  I do agree that some solutions are really far-fetched, like this week's in particular, with Al Capone's brother being induced to arrest his brother.

[dubbel zout]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I do agree that some solutions are really far-fetched

Which is why the show might as well lean into it. The team giving itself joke names when it lands somewhere is a start, but there's so much more the writers could do with this. I wonder what they're afraid of.

[henripootel]

26 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

The team giving itself joke names when it lands somewhere is a start, but there's so much more the writers could do with this. I wonder what they're afraid of.

If I had to use a sports analogy, it seems to me like they trying not to lose rather than to score more points.  Instead of sticking their necks out, they're trying  to stick to a formula they think people will like, such as introducing the 'luminaries' of any particular time period.  More often than not, what they mean by this is 'historic figures most people have heard of', even if they weren't real key points in history, like Lindbergh or Hemingway.  They also have conflicted heroes (whose conflicts I don't really care about), a shadowy villain organization (about which I care less), and romantic interests that don't really interest me either.  These all seem like familiar elements they put in because they're ... familiar.  And should appeal to everyone.  But kinda don't.  

Oh the other hand, there are novel elements I actually enjoy.  The team aren't all gung-ho professionals - they're just as wide-eyed and gob-smacked as I think I'd be if I got a chance to time travel.  And they have Malcolm Barrett, and I notice a precipitous drop in quality for any scene that doesn't have him in it.  I really wish these guys would get another season to see if the writers could find their footing but I kinda doubt this is gonna happen. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Lucy was the one who knew: 

How to find Lone Ranger guy when they needed help going after Jesse James

To go to Capone's brother to get to him, knew where Lindbergh was supposed to land

Which other people were in danger when Flynn went back to re-kill Lincoln

The importance of the letter in the Alamo episode, and was able to write it

That Rufus and Wyatt were in the murder hotel, and was smart enough to find Houdini to help

My point is despite her vast knowledge she has not been able to prevent the accidental or deliberate killing of various historical figures (Elliot Ness being the most recent example) which should have had a profound affect on the timeline. And since none of these radical changes to historical people and events have made the slightest difference, it doesn't seem like they need an "historian" on the trip at all if the goal is to take out Flynn. The team would be better served by replacing her with another assassin/agent.

I've also pointed out before the absurdity of the NSA or the CIA having to recruit a civilian for such a job. There are surely plenty of experienced field agents in government agencies with as much historical knowledge as Lucy, and better training for field work.

[elle]

7 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

And if the recapper had just stuck to recapping the episode rather than going off on an irrelevant tangent, there would have been nothing for you to point out.  That's MY point.

Got it!

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, henripootel said:

 Instead of sticking their necks out, they're trying  to stick to a formula they think people will like, such as introducing the 'luminaries' of any particular time period.

If they really wanted to fly, this series might actually work well on HBO or Netflix, where they could write what they want, and really stretch the plotlines.

[green]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

...I've also pointed out before the absurdity of the NSA or the CIA having to recruit a civilian for such a job. There are surely plenty of experienced field agents in government agencies with as much historical knowledge as Lucy, and better training for field work.

I assumed from the beginning that Rittenhouse was behind "recruiting" her.  Her history background has next to nothing to do with it.  Just something to use to "cover" for Lucy's benefit for her to believe why she was "recruited." And since we learned who her dad is I think that pretty much proves it was Rittenhouse who always wanted her on the team.  For what reason?  Oh they will get around and tell us in Season 6 I imagine.  Except there will be no Season 6 and probably no Season 2.

I also assumed the fix was in to get Wyatt because no how no way anyone from the military or government would have recruited him for the mission given his baggage and state of mind.  Why does Rittenhouse want Wyatt?  Obviously it has to do with his dead wife and it was all gonna be explained in Season 4 no doubt but ... yeah, you know.

Edited February 17, 2017 by green

[iMonrey]

Unfortunately, green, you may be giving the writers way more credit than they deserve, especially regarding any potential secret reason behind recruiting Wyatt or tying the death of his wife to Rittenhouse. It's an intriguing theory but nothing the writers have done this season demonstrates they put that much thought into the premise. 

[Clanstarling]

On 2/13/2017 at 11:57 PM, Ariah said:

If only the show did this not in the 15th but like 8th episode... We could have used a lot less time-jumping after Flynn and a lot more renegade Eye-team.

I know, right? Despite the fact I've watched it every week, this is the first time that after the opening scene, I went "now that's the way you do it - tension, high stakes, looks like fun."

On 2/14/2017 at 8:15 AM, Mabel said:

I initially started watching Timeless for Goran Višnjić - really liked him in ER (and yes, in this episode, there were glimpses of his ER performance). but it seems that either his acting capabilities have greatly deterioritated since ER (which I struggle to believe, because he was terrific in ER- great acting range), or the writers don't really know what to do with Flynn - he appears more of a plot device than a fleshed out character.

I felt the same way, but during the church scene I thought he did a great job and thought that maybe he was going to actually do something worthy of redemption - and then he ordered Rufus' death. Pffft!