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S05.E11: Second Chances


Tara Ariano
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Meet our new Black Canary! She's every cliché troubled tough girl badass you've ever seen, but welcome her anyway! At least the actress actually looks like she can throw a decent punch. I'm going to try to give Tina/Dinah a chance, and the actress was alright, but she seems pretty one note as of now. She's all angst filled and smirky and crosses her arms a lot and has lots of "snarky" lines and through out the good old fashioned "I can take care of myself", and has the requisite tragic past, its all stuff we`ve seen before. Also, not to be insensitive, but Tina looked pretty decent for being tortured for two weeks, didn't she? I mean, she looked messed up, like she had been tortured for a few hours or a day or two, but after two weeks? Wouldn't she look a little bit more bloody? I'm not an expert or anything, it just seemed a little weird.

I laughed out loud at Oliver and Rene being all "don't kill that guy! Its wrong!" after they had just mowed down like 30 guys in a row, including shooting down a freaking helicopter. I guess its different because they were actually firing at them, but, well, the good guys did start it. Not that they weren't bad guys who didn't deserve to get taken down, but its a mite hypocritical isn't it Oliver?

What has even happened to this show where I think the flashbacks are the most interesting part? I like Talia so far, but what happened to her? I assume she's League of Assassins Talia, but where was she during all that drama earlier?

So our new Team Arrow is Oliver, Rene, and Tina, with Curtis on coms? LAME. Curtis and Rene have gotten a little better, but I would watch a show with Rory/Felicity/Dig any day of the week instead. Poor Rory, trapped in subplot purgatory. It was a decent subplot, but it was weird he was hanging with Felicity, as much as I love them together. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave Curtis with her?

I also laughed at everyone giving Oliver the names of all these super badass black belt ex special forces women who save orphans on the weekend, and Oliver is just like "no way can these ridiculously qualified people stand up to the legacy of St. Laurel!" when Laurel was probably one of the least qualified vigilantes in the multiverse, next to James Olson. "Screw all these super competent women, lets go after this random unstable woman who clearly wants nothing to do with us who has the same damn power as Laurel!". Just so weird. I didn't even dislike Laurel, and  I'm rolling my eyes at how awesome she was supposed to be.

Edited by tennisgurl
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If this new Black Canary means that we never have to see Katie Cassidy and Laurel Lance ever again, then YES YES YES A THOUSAND TIMES YES.  May she stick around forever.

I don't understand why Oliver would go into a fight with only Wild Dung at his side.  Rory is more powerful than either of them since he's an actual metahuman and yet Oliver leaves him behind in case Felicity needs help.  Sounds like the show blew its special effects budget for the week and therefore the rags had to stay home.  Doesn't make sense.

I would unequivocally watch a show featuring the sisters Al Ghul.  The entire show could consist of them taking turns reading the phone book in those seductive and sultry accents, and I would be riveted.  I would love for Curtis and Wild Dung to leave the team and the show and be replaced with Nyssa and Talia permanently.

6 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Did anyone else thought it was creepy that Curtis said the only thing missing was the blonde hair? That was so weird for me.

He was comparing Tina/Dinah to Laurel, right?  Which was odd to me.  I realize that very few people in real life have comic book blonde hair.  The really really light blonde platinum hair that seems to be prevalent way more in comic books than in real life.  Especially on male heroes (e.g. Oliver Queen, Aquaman, Captain America, Havok, Hawkeye, Ka-Zar).  Few men in real life have this natural hair colour.  That colour hair is even more prevalent on comic book females (Supergirl, Black Canary, Captain Marvel, Invisible Woman, Emma Frost, to name a few) and real life females (thanks to a bottle).  But Katie Cassidy / Laurel as depicted on this show does NOT have blonde hair.  It was a light brown / mousy brown / brown.

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2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I also laughed at everyone giving Oliver the names of all these super badass black belt ex special forces women who save orphans on the weekend, and Oliver is just like "no way can these ridiculously qualified people stand up to the legacy of St. Laurel!" when Laurel was probably one of the least qualified vigilantes in the multiverse, next to James Olson.

ROFL.  I haven't had a chance to see the episode yet but I saw this in the preview clip, and...yeah. :)

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14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Meet our new Black Canary! She's every cliché troubled tough girl badass you've ever seen, but welcome her anyway! At least the actress actually looks like she can throw a decent punch. I'm going to try to give Tina/Dinah a chance, and the actress was alright, but she seems pretty one note as of now. She's all angst filled and smirky and crosses her arms a lot and has lots of "snarky" lines and through out the good old fashioned "I can take care of myself", and has the requisite tragic past, its all stuff we`ve seen before.

She also sticks her hands into her back pants pockets. 

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I also laughed at everyone giving Oliver the names of all these super badass black belt ex special forces women who save orphans on the weekend, and Oliver is just like "no way can these ridiculously qualified people stand up to the legacy of St. Laurel!" when Laurel was probably one of the least qualified vigilantes in the multiverse, next to James Olson. "Screw all these super competent women, lets go after this random unstable woman who clearly wants nothing to do with us who has the same damn power as Laurel!". Just so weird. I didn't even dislike Laurel, and  I'm rolling my eyes at how awesome she was supposed to be.

She is more like Laurel than those highly trained, stable, do-gooder women, you have to admit. Going berserk after losing someone and focusing on revenge? Check. Unstable? Check. Black leather jacket? Check. All she was missing was single white femaling, and Oliver has just handed her that.

Edited by bijoux
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11 minutes ago, blackwing said:

 

He was comparing Tina/Dinah to Laurel, right?  Which was odd to me.  I realize that very few people in real life have comic book blonde hair.  The really really light blonde platinum hair that seems to be prevalent way more in comic books than in real life.  Especially on male heroes (e.g. Oliver Queen, Aquaman, Captain America, Havok, Hawkeye, Ka-Zar).  Few men in real life have this natural hair colour.  That colour hair is even more prevalent on comic book females (Supergirl, Black Canary, Captain Marvel, Invisible Woman, Emma Frost, to name a few) and real life females (thanks to a bottle).  But Katie Cassidy / Laurel as depicted on this show does NOT have blonde hair.  It was a light brown / mousy brown / brown.

Yes, it was when they were looking at the possible options. I get making sure one had the fighting skills but it looked like they were choosing a sweater to order online. LOL. Like when they found her they planned to dye her hair and call her Laurel. Creepy!

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Speaking of names, Tinah introduced herself as Tina Boland to Oliver's staff. Is she still going to go by that in public, or will it just be ha, ha, internal joke, psych, my name is really Dinah Drake?

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34 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I was looking at this SpoilerTV readers' poll and, currently, only 39% thought this episode was "Awesome" while 31% thought it was "Awful" (iirc, the "Awesome" vote is usually much higher for an Arrow episode)...

POLL : What did you think of Arrow - Second Chances?
http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/02/poll-what-did-you-think-of-arrow-second.html

Aw crap!  I pulled up the poll to vote and I thought the page was done loading, but right as I clicked "poor" the page jumped up and I clicked "Good".  Curses!

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12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Aw crap!  I pulled up the poll to vote and I thought the page was done loading, but right as I clicked "poor" the page jumped up and I clicked "Good".  Curses!

You can change your vote - there's a little link right below the poll

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1 hour ago, bijoux said:

What a difference three months make.

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503 - no touching even when it could have been warranted because of Oliver's injury. 511 - touching for no reason whatsoever.

My favorite part is the fact that Stoliver has to stretch his arm that far just so she can touch him. 

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Watching the LL stans and the DD supporters clash in the comment section of that poll is entertaining.

I see points made from both- the way they delt with LL since her death is not good, they did bait her fans, but people also over read into things (same as some Olicity fans do) and essentially lifting out one female character to insert another is gross. However LL never really worked for so many people, so why shouldn't they replace her. But the timing and method used to replace her showcased some shit writing.

it was funny that even though the conversations were purely LL/DD someone would accessionaly throw in a quick anti-Olicity slur, somehow it's still all 'our' fault? Even though it isn't clear what exactly 'it' is that's Olicity fans fault, both LL and DD fans can agree that Olicity fans are to blame.....for something/everything.

Did notice Canadagraphs flat out lying stating that JH was bullied by Felicity/Olicity fans into deleting a tweet of an article because they were angry that Felicity wasn't mentioned in it. Flat out lying.

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3 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Yes, where is @quarks? I haven't seen her around here for a long time.  I'd love to read her take on this whole situation.

She's still watching and commenting about The Flash.  Seems a shame she missed out on Laurel's last episode. 

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So, I actually might have been happy with that.

New girl has some decent fighting moves that don’t include “badass” poses, an acting repertoire that includes more than knowing smirks and an intro story that wasn’t completely eye rolling. So, she gets a solid vote of apathy from me. I am curious about the two nuggets of backstory that were dropped - apparently, she’s a slob and was in deep cover because she has a family to protect. Will either of these ever be revisited? I’ll be on my seat’s edge.

And for me, the Quest for the Legend that is St Laurel was totally overshadowed by the Mystery of the Inspirational Savior. Loved Talia. Loved seeing Oliver put on the Arrow suit for the first time.  Not gonna lie, all the way back to the pilot I always wondered  where that suit came from. Could never imagine him buying it - not off the rack and not on-line (I’m looking at you, Helena scene of misdirection). So, to know that it was given to him tickled my  need for critical details fancy. And, of course, we now also know where his first bow came from too.  The flashbacks this season have been my saving grace and they continue not to disappoint.

I am completely over the weekly to kill or not to kill mantra. It's really hard to take a guy seriously when he’s standing in a literal battlefield of dead bodies pleading to save a villain’s life. Especially when I know after the commercial break it's likely there will be another bloodbath and no one will raise a questioning eyebrow.   My biggest related complaint with Oliver’s kill/no don’t inner dilemma is that he never reprimands Wild Dong for his penchant to shoot first and never bother to ask questions. I don’t know if it's because he’s a bad shot and isn’t hitting anybody (the way it usually appears) or if his character is such a special snowflake he doesn't get called out. All I know is that my last nerve twitches every time he comes out guns a blazing like he’s frakking  Wyatt Earp in the OK corral. /sigh

Loved Felicity and her doppelgänger-hacker-stalker. Really looking forward to her arc unfolding. I personally don’t want Prometheus to be behind it or in any way connected to it because I hate the all knowing/all powerful big bads. Prometheus already has his gloved hands in to many things Oliver related I’ll be unhappy if he gains dominance over him through Felicity. I hope Pandora/Helix is something she’s able to use to help Oliver defeat Prometheus.

On a purely superficial level I was just happy to see Oliver not in the business suit the entire episode. Prefer him in casual clothes. I was also happy with the lighting in this episode. For me, a lot of SA’s acting comes through his eyes and the lighting this season has shrouded them.  I remember reading something in season one about how important it was to make sure the lighting showed his eyes even when he was wearing the mask. Don’t know who said that but I wish s/he was still around. Plus, I enjoy the pretty blue.

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9 hours ago, KirkB said:

More than anything else I think I'm really curious about Oliver's text to Barry. "Hey, I'm on the phone with your Captain. Can you convince him I'm the real Green Arrow?"

I was wondering why he didn't just have Barry give him the information about Tina/Dinah directly.

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32 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I was wondering why he didn't just have Barry give him the information about Tina/Dinah directly.

Or talk to Joe.  Or have Curtis hack in or Felicity or just google her since apparently they get most of their info from an article anyway.  Or hell, how about a call to Iris??  She'd LOVE to talk to Oliver Queen and her fans would have flipped that Iris got her own crossover.   

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7 hours ago, tv echo said:

Video of big Dinah Drake reveal scene (courtesy of The Flash)...

 

I finally got around to watching this. 

Its not a terrible scene but the dialogue is pretty bad in parts and it's rather lifeless. 

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9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

It would be really in poor taste if they introduced Tinah as a romantic soulmate with a Jewish term when so much has been made of Felicity being Jewish (as much as they make of anyone, that is)

I think that ship has sailed.  And if it hasn't, Stephen Amell will do his level best to burn it down to the waterline.  Despite being a happily married man with a child, I think Stephen Amell "ships" the characters of Oliver and Felicity.  The scenes he has with Emily Bett Rickards are on a different levels than those with others in the cast, especially potential romantic pairing.  That was obvious during their first scene together in the third episode of the series.  The contrast between the first two episode and that one is startling.  In the first two episode, Oliver Queen comes off like Dexter with archery skills, a cunning, ruthless sociopath who goes after other sociopaths (and their minions).  Meeting Felicity woke him into being a real person again (and likely saved the show).

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2 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I think that ship has sailed.  And if it hasn't, Stephen Amell will do his level best to burn it down to the waterline.  Despite being a happily married man with a child, I think Stephen Amell "ships" the characters of Oliver and Felicity.  The scenes he has with Emily Bett Rickards are on a different levels than those with others in the cast, especially potential romantic pairing.  That was obvious during their first scene together in the third episode of the series.  The contrast between the first two episode and that one is startling.  In the first two episode, Oliver Queen comes off like Dexter with archery skills, a cunning, ruthless sociopath who goes after other sociopaths (and their minions).  Meeting Felicity woke him into being a real person again (and likely saved the show).

Well, SA has said he's protective of Oliver.  I personally agree that Oliver comes off a much better character (and he a better actor) when Oliver is with Felicity.  

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Especially since Rory didn't have his suit when he was backup for Felicity. What would he or Felicity had done if she was hurt?

They really kept him away from the action because of having to service Tina's and that villain's meta human special effects.

Edited by EmilyBettFan
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32 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Despite being a happily married man with a child, I think Stephen Amell "ships" the characters of Oliver and Felicity. 

I don't think him being married with a kid has anything to do with who he ships though...

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I didn't mind the episode and I'm willing to give our new BC a chance (although I did laugh out loud when we found out her name).  My biggest problem  is that we now find out that Talia is the one who created the Green Arrow.  She produced the outfit and literally told Oliver to go back to Starling and start hunting the people on the list.  IMO, that really takes a lot away from Oliver's character because it erases his internal motivation and responsibility for becoming a vigilante. 

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9 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I don't think him being married with a kid has anything to do with who he ships though...

Maybe it doesn't, but on some level you'd think it would.  It's one thing for you or me to ship a couple characters on a TV.  We're at a distance.  We'll likely never meet the actors in person or interact with them except via Twitter. 

It's a little different thing when one of the actors ships a couple he's potentially part of.  Because that's a real guy doing scenes with the real woman playing the part of his character's love interest.  It's potentially weird/creepy.  It's sort of like the urban legend that Quentin Tarantino wrote the footplay scene with Salma Hayek and himself into From Dusk 'til Dawn because he wanted to gratify his foot fetish.

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14 minutes ago, johntfs said:

It's a little different thing when one of the actors ships a couple he's potentially part of.  Because that's a real guy doing scenes with the real woman playing the part of his character's love interest.  It's potentially weird/creepy.  It's sort of like the urban legend that Quentin Tarantino wrote the footplay scene with Salma Hayek and himself into From Dusk 'til Dawn because he wanted to gratify his foot fetish.

IDK though what makes Stephen different than the other actors who were HUGE proponents of their ships? Such as John Krasinski (who thought of Jenna Fischer as his work wife), Colin O'Donoghue on OUAT, David Boreanaz from Bones, David Duchovny from X-Files, Zachary Levi from Chuck etc... 

Edited by wonderwall
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28 minutes ago, AES13 said:

I didn't mind the episode and I'm willing to give our new BC a chance (although I did laugh out loud when we found out her name).  My biggest problem  is that we now find out that Talia is the one who created the Green Arrow.  She produced the outfit and literally told Oliver to go back to Starling and start hunting the people on the list.  IMO, that really takes a lot away from Oliver's character because it erases his internal motivation and responsibility for becoming a vigilante. 

I found that a bit problematic, but I'm kind of going to give them some leeway on it for now (partially because I really liked those flashbacks) because it's only 511 so far and there's still some Bratva plot left to go (512 where he presumably becomes captain and gets the tattoo and 517 where it's a mostly flashback episode centered on Kovar). To me that says that there's still some final moment that Oliver has to get to to ultimately motivate him to go back to the island to go back home. Plus, I saw the scene mostly focusing on Talia basically saying that there's this person who survived the island, Hong Kong, the island again, and is now taking on Kovar and the Bratva, and that there's a person who didn't get to go home after literally being back home. Oliver is this one person who feels that he can't be both, but Talia says that he doesn't have to be if he completely separates them, giving him the outfit to start (pretty league tradition-esque, new identity channeling person within, etc.).

Yeah she also mentioned going home and the list, but since there's still a Bratva plot, and I'm guessing an ulterior motive for Talia, her part in these flashbacks were more about establishing the idea rather than the motivation. She just kind of spelled out a reasoning for Oliver to think about (and ultimately follow since it's the monologue of s1), but since she's not in s1, at some point the motivation and actual action of deciding and going back will have to come from Oliver in some later point in the flashback.

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5 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

IDK though what makes Stephen different than the other actors who were HUGE proponents of their ships? Such as John Krasinski (who thought of Jenna Fischer as his work wife), Colin O'Donoghue on OUAT, David Boreanaz from Bones, David Duchovny from X-Files, Zachary Levi from Chuck etc... 

Maybe nothing makes him different.  It just seems like a potential way to blur lines and introduce trouble into actors' personal lives.  But if it works out and everyone's professional enough to keep reel life separate from real life, then everything's cool.

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9 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Maybe nothing makes him different.  It just seems like a potential way to blur lines and introduce trouble into actors' personal lives.  But if it works out and everyone's professional enough to keep reel life separate from real life, then everything's cool.

Although he did tweet about Emily giving him a forehead kiss last week... So who knows, really. Forehead kisses aren't usually a platonic thing...

ETA: Pardon me. It was a salty forehead kiss... What even makes forehead kisses salty idk

Edited by wonderwall
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1 hour ago, AES13 said:

I didn't mind the episode and I'm willing to give our new BC a chance (although I did laugh out loud when we found out her name).  My biggest problem  is that we now find out that Talia is the one who created the Green Arrow.  She produced the outfit and literally told Oliver to go back to Starling and start hunting the people on the list.  IMO, that really takes a lot away from Oliver's character because it erases his internal motivation and responsibility for becoming a vigilante. 

I get where you are coming from but honestly this would explain so much because Oliver has always seemed to need people needing to tell him what to sort of do and then he takes their words of wisdom and applies it his way.  So this just fits right in.  

I'm still waiting for that explanation as to why Talia's LoA connection was never brought up.  Is she just never going to mention it?  

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1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

I get where you are coming from but honestly this would explain so much because Oliver has always seemed to need people needing to tell him what to sort of do and then he takes their words of wisdom and applies it his way.  So this just fits right in.  

I'm still waiting for that explanation as to why Talia's LoA connection was never brought up.  Is she just never going to mention it?  

Have we seen any indication yet that he knows her last name? Maybe she never tells him. 'My father's the leader of a ninja assassin cult' is maybe something she doesn't share?

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24 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Have we seen any indication yet that he knows her last name? Maybe she never tells him. 'My father's the leader of a ninja assassin cult' is maybe something she doesn't share?

Maybe that's a second date kind of conversation. ;)

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6 hours ago, LeighAn said:

The casting sides also didn't match up with much in the episode. She wasn't a marine, she didn't join out of a promise from Oliver to find a missing partner, and she wasn't set up to have personal stakes in catching Prometheus.

IIRC, the casting sides were of two scenes.  I agree that the "join us" conversations were different but

Spoiler

her reveal of a marine background was in the second and so may still happen

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm still waiting for that explanation as to why Talia's LoA connection was never brought up.  Is she just never going to mention it?  

Maybe she's on the outs right now with them.  (Do I have that right that at times Talia went against the League?)  We still don't know what she wants from Oliver.  It's hard to believe she's doing all this for an altruistic purpose.

I guess the show doesn't want to spend a lot of time wooing DTinah on to Team Arrow, but it seems like she threw in her lot with them just because she had nothing else in her life now that Sonos was dead so hey, let's join this group of people from a costume warehouse sale. Weird.

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Just watched it, and I guess I'm, dare I say, whelmed.  I wasn't immediately in love with Tinah, but I think she has the potential to grow on me.  I thought the last scene was good.  I guess I'm just going to wait and see how she settles into the role.  But thank you (not really) @dtissagirl for the Lisa Edelstein comparison - I can't unsee it now. Lol. 

Lexa Doig's British accent was throwing me.  I've seen her in several other things and that is not the voice I'm used to.  Nonetheless, Talia's an interesting character.  I have thoughts, but I think I'm going to take it to a different thread.  

And I'm very interested to see whether this Felicity storyline goes.  I didn't see it as her not being dark.   She's being tempted to go down the rabbit hole, and I'm interested to see where it takes her.  I just hope they finally give one of her storylines a decent follow through.  

Who is it here that's a Roricity shipper?  The rest of you don't kill me please, but yeah, I could see it tonight. Lol.

Edited by Starfish35
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1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

Who is it here that's a Roricity shipper?  The rest of you don't kill me please, but yeah, I could see it tonight. Lol.

They are now my emergency backup ship.  The way he cocked his head when he said "Goth?" was just the right side of flirty, and I like how he is there for her, particularly when everyone else seems oblivious to what's happening with her.

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