Secrets Of The Six Wives - General Discussion

[Arwen Evenstar]

20 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Do you mean a sharp card or literally a card sharp?  As in an hustler?  Is that why Lucy put down 7 or 8 Anne of Cleves cards when she was talking about the marriage contract?

She was very skilled at playing cards...

[Miss Chevious]

I enjoyed watching this series, learned lots of interesting tidbits. The scenes where Lucy Worsley was carting around these big old paintings of the wives in cabs, on boats, etc. had me cracking up with laughter. The best one was Lucy Worsley eating French fries with one of them. 

[AZChristian]

I've been fortunate enough to have been able to visit England four times. It was delightful to see many of the places we've toured in real life. I actually got tears in my eyes when they showed the plaque over the graves of Henry and Jane Seymour at St. George's Chapel at Windsor. One of my favorite churches ever.

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, Miss Chevious said:

The best one was Lucy Worsley eating French fries with one of them. 

At the same time she's discussing how Ann had to learn English eating etiquette.  Is it so very English to stare soulfully at your ketchup-topped fry before you eat it?  That was just odd.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Well, what about Calpeper? He had to know the fare of Anne's "lovers", why take that risk?

I have heard that - contrary to Worsley's assertion that Katherine Howard went to the gallows with penitence - that she was very defiant and announced to the assembled crowd that she considered herself "Mrs. Thomas Culpeper." Is this merely urban legend?

[AZChristian]

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I have heard that - contrary to Worsley's assertion that Katherine Howard went to the gallows with penitence - that she was very defiant and announced to the assembled crowd that she considered herself "Mrs. Thomas Culpeper." Is this merely urban legend?

From the fount of all knowledge (Wikipedia) . . . which is occasionally true:

"The night before her execution, Catherine is believed to have spent many hours practising how to lay her head upon the block, which had been brought to her at her request. She died with relative composure, but looked pale and terrified, she required assistance to climb the scaffold. She made a speech describing her punishment as "worthy and just" and asked for mercy for her family and prayers for her soul. According to popular folklore, her final words were, "I die a Queen, but I would rather have died the wife of Culpeper", however no eyewitness accounts back this up. Instead, reporting that she stuck to traditional final words, asking for forgiveness for her sins and acknowledging that she deserved to die 'a thousand deaths' for betraying the king; who had always treated her so graciously. Catherine was beheaded with a single stroke of the executioner's axe."

[StaceyNotStacie]

I was checking out my dvr and PBS has two more specials scheduled for the next two Sundays (the bedchamber and the wardrobe), the same 10 pm time slot. 

[Sandman]

On 2017-02-06 at 11:33 AM, Brattinella said:

Anne of the Thousand Days will always be my favorite Anne. 

Mine, too -- if we're not counting Anna Bolena, the Donizetti version.

On 2017-02-06 at 2:06 PM, movingtargetgal said:

I have always wanted to go back in time to tell Henry VIII that it was his youngest daughter, Queen Elizabeth, daughter of Anne, who became the greatest monarch in English history.  It was she who defeated the Spanish and lead England into it's Golden Age.  

I love the moment near the end of Anne of the Thousand Days where Anne comes out of despondency and, in a moment of fury, hope and apparent prescience, rounds on Henry and declares "My Elizabeth shall be Queen...!" That scene gave me goosebumps the first time I saw it.

[Brattinella]

9 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I love the moment near the end of Anne of the Thousand Days where Anne comes out of despondency and, in a moment of fury, hope and apparent prescience, rounds on Henry and declares "My Elizabeth shall be Queen...!" That scene gave me goosebumps the first time I saw it.

Yes!  Such a powerful statement!

[Badger]

On 2/6/2017 at 10:33 AM, Brattinella said:

Anne of the Thousand Days will always be my favorite Anne. 

That's my favorite Anne too.  

[Sandman]

On 2017-02-06 at 3:43 PM, Arwen Evenstar said:

Trumping up charges of adultery and incest against her made it look like it was her fault and he was an aggrieved husband, rather than the petulant malcontent that he really was.

And also witchcraft. Mustn't forget the witchcraft!

[Brattinella]

All in all, Henry was a bit of a shit.

[proserpina65]

I was unconvinced by Lucy Worsley to be more sympathetic to Catherine Howard.  I can believe that maybe she was a sexually abused child, although attitudes about sex and age of consent were very different then, but I don't buy that she was some kind of victim of Thomas Culpepper.  They both knew full well what fate would await them if they got caught, and Catherine, having seen the example of her own cousin, strikes me as especially stupid to risk an affair.

[Sandman]

I think I have to leave this here now.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Sandman

[Blergh]

On 1/31/2017 at 1:58 PM, Arynm said:

I always thought he could have married Elizabeth and Mary off, then they would be out of the way of the throne if he really wanted to. He decided to close his eyes and pretend they didn't exist instead. Who knows what would have happened then, maybe Jane Grey(Gray?) would have stayed Queen longer.

While Miss Worsley did an outstanding job, there were two things she left out re Henry's treatment of his daughters that would be quite relevant to history. First, he literally bastardized them so that they were no longer princesses but just 'Lady Mary and Lady Elizabeth Tudor' (and neither Edward VI would reverse this for them nor would Mary herself do that for Elizabeth but she DID do it for herself).  Even though she wasn't yet three, the ever perceptive Elizabeth herself noticed the change and asked 'Why hap yesterday I'm called Lady Princess and today Lady Elizabeth?'It's only historic retro-courtesy that they are termed princesses after their mothers' unions got annulled. This, of course, knocked out the possibility of any Continental prince wanting to wed either of them during Henry's reign. This also meant that they would not only be the first women but also the first bastards to rule since William the Conqueror himself!

   Secondly, on one of the very few positive notes re his parenting, regardless of how Henry viewed his daughters' legitimacy, he DID see to it that they were thoroughly educated in an age when it was rare even for royals and wealthy families to educate their daughters- and this would prove vital especially in Elizabeth's reign.

   Ironically, of ALL his wives, I think not only was Catherine of Aragon the one he loved longest (and the one who knew him at his best) but also was the one who loved him for himself rather than his connections. Still, Anne  of Cleves DID get the best deal of all (and it should be noted that there seems to have been a trade of horses from the Low Countries to England that were imported to improve English stock at the time- so it's possible that Henry's 'Flanders mare' tag was not so much an insult but a somewhat crude acknowledgement of her ostensible role as his new queen).

Edited February 8, 2017 by Blergh
apostrophe move

[iMonrey]

The show was also remiss not to point out that it was Katherine Parr who brought about a reconciliation between Henry and his two daughters, and who persuaded him to restore them to the line of succession, although not to legitimacy.

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

The show was also remiss not to point out that it was Katherine Parr who brought about a reconciliation between Henry and his two daughters, and who persuaded him to restore them to the line of succession, although not to legitimacy.

I thought they did touch on that to some point. 

After seeing how both Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn were treated in such a pitiless manner by Henry, and then him threatening Jane Seymour with a similar fate, my husband said, "Wow, this guy was a real asshole!"

Not defending him, I said, well, he was the king after all, and was going to have his way, because in those times, Kings and to a certain extent queens, believed they were destined by God to rule, and that was never to be questioned or disputed. But, yes, he's an asshole all day long and has been remembered throughout history as being so and is not ranked highly by historians as being a particularly good king.

Katherine Howard must have known somewhat what she was getting into. Most girls are barely allowed to date at 15 nowadays, let alone marry. By today's standards, it seems mind boggling and not even legal in some places. 

It was not uncommon for men to help themselves to what they wanted in those days or for 15 year old girls to be married off to men older than their fathers. However, the wife of a king was expected to be a maid upon her marriage. Though it is plausible that she'd been raped or molested, and such things are not a choice, and had she revealed this to Henry prior to the marriage, he may have forgiven her, or simply had the marriage annulled after the fact. Anne of Cleve's was accused of not being a maid, but was handsomely paid to go away quietly, proving he could have had this marriage annulled as well.

But Katherine's adultery after the marriage left him no choice, though he could have chosen banishment over beheading. She was a very foolish young girl to think she could have gotten away with it, particularly given that like her unfortunate cousin, she had way too many enemies at court.

[Arwen Evenstar]

21 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

I was checking out my dvr and PBS has two more specials scheduled for the next two Sundays (the bedchamber and the wardrobe), the same 10 pm time slot. 

Thanks...should be interesting.

[MamaMax]

8 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I was unconvinced by Lucy Worsley to be more sympathetic to Catherine Howard.  I can believe that maybe she was a sexually abused child, although attitudes about sex and age of consent were very different then, but I don't buy that she was some kind of victim of Thomas Culpepper.  They both knew full well what fate would await them if they got caught, and Catherine, having seen the example of her own cousin, strikes me as especially stupid to risk an affair.

Well, she was what, 18? when she died.  And Culpepper was almost 10 years older? I can still see her as victim, that he may have forced himself on her, and possibly had extra power over her since he knew about her "past."

[Arwen Evenstar]

4 hours ago, MamaMax said:

Well, she was what, 18? when she died.  And Culpepper was almost 10 years older? I can still see her as victim, that he may have forced himself on her, and possibly had extra power over her since he knew about her "past."

Oh, there's definitely more to the story, but the history is lost to time or the documents and diaries have not yet been found.  

Culpepper was already known to be a scoundrel and could well have been blackmailing her. He ended up losing his head as well.

[Quilt Fairy]

Quote

Examine the significance of the royal wardrobes of English monarchs over the last 400 years. Learn why most kings and queens have carefully choreographed every aspect of their apparel and why, for those who haven't, the consequences have sometimes been calamitous.

[Quilt Fairy]

Quote

Lucy Worsley gets into bed with our past monarchs to uncover the Tales from the Royal Bedchamber. She reveals that our obsession with royal bedrooms, births and succession is nothing new. In fact, the rise and fall of their magnificent beds reflects the changing fortunes of the monarchy itself.

[Quilt Fairy]

Thanks to the heads-up poster who noted that there are 2 more Lucy Worsley specials airing after Victoria on Feb 12th (Tales From the Royal Wardrobe) and Feb 19th (Tales From the Royal Bedchamber).  For the time being, I'm adding topic threads for them in this forum, although we may find a more logical way to organize them in the future.

[chitowngirl]

We are not getting those specials on my PBS. We are getting Wuthering Heights.

[Quilt Fairy]

This may turn out to be one of those things that's at the discretion of each individual PBS station.  I know WTTW in Chicago will have the Lucy Worsley ones.

[Peper81]

2 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

We are not getting those specials on my PBS. We are getting Wuthering Heights.

I had thought the same thing but my PBS is airing these episodes after Wuthering Heights at a very late, unusual hour so you may want to check and see if your station is doing the same thing.

[MamaMax]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

This may turn out to be one of those things that's at the discretion of each individual PBS station.  I know WTTW in Chicago will have the Lucy Worsley ones.

I saw the Russian Tzars series on the PBS app... maybe they will have them there?

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, MamaMax said:

Well, she was what, 18? when she died.  And Culpepper was almost 10 years older? I can still see her as victim, that he may have forced himself on her, and possibly had extra power over her since he knew about her "past."

She was part of an extremely political family.  I think even at 18 she had a pretty good idea what her behavior would get her.  So, I'm sorry, but I don't buy her as a victim.

[Hyacinth B]

On 2/6/2017 at 8:41 AM, Stacey1014 said:

I'm glad I wasn't the only one shocked by the change in casting of Henry. I didn't realize there wasn't that much of a time difference between wives 3 and 4. 

I was pleasantly surprised by this series. I wasn't too familiar with Ms. Worsley, so I didn't know what to expect. I might have to rewatch her series about the Tsars of Russia on Netflix and see what my local library has by her. 

If you search YouTube for "Lucy Worsley documentaries" you'll find more. She's one very busy lady.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Hyacinth B

[Arwen Evenstar]

28 minutes ago, Hyacinth B said:

If you search YouTube for "Lucy Worsley documentaries" you'll find more. She's one very busy lady.

Love your avatar! We all can only hope to be invited to one of your candlelight suppers, even if we can't be trusted with your Royal Doulton delicate hand painted periwinkles.

[blackwing]

On 2/8/2017 at 9:53 AM, proserpina65 said:

I was unconvinced by Lucy Worsley to be more sympathetic to Catherine Howard.  I can believe that maybe she was a sexually abused child, although attitudes about sex and age of consent were very different then, but I don't buy that she was some kind of victim of Thomas Culpepper.  They both knew full well what fate would await them if they got caught, and Catherine, having seen the example of her own cousin, strikes me as especially stupid to risk an affair.

I agree.  I didn't care for her depiction as "poor Catherine Howard, a victim of her upbringing".  Worsley appears to be saying that she got abused by her music teacher, and therefore she was psychologically scarred.  Then she slept with her cousin Francis Dereham because she thought it normal to have such relations at such a young age.  And she just couldn't help herself, so when this attractive courtier came calling, she was powerless to prevent herself from sleeping with him.

I don't buy it.  I don't buy the portrayal that Catherine's "tortured childhood" led her down a dark path that ended in her death.  One, she was a cousin of Anne Boleyn.  The family knew what had happened to Anne Boleyn.  Why would they even let Catherine near the court?  They used her to curry favour for the family.  Then she lands the prize, she is Queen of England.  But Henry is old and fat and she was just doing what young horny people always do.  The problem was that she was married to the king and chose to do it anyways.

I'm sure Culpepper got something out of it too... he was bedding the hot young Queen of England.  I guess he thought it was worth the risk.  They obviously both paid dearly for it.

[Sew Sumi]

8 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

We are not getting those specials on my PBS. We are getting Wuthering Heights.

San Francisco here. We're getting "Hidden Killers, Edwardian Era."

[Hyacinth B]

3 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Love your avatar! We all can only hope to be invited to one of your candlelight suppers, even if we can't be trusted with your Royal Doulton delicate hand painted periwinkles.

 (And I love yours too, another LOTR fan here!)

I think you'd be much more elegant company at one of my Suppers than that brute Henry, king or no! I wouldn't trust him within 10 feet of my Royal Doulton. But any descendant of kings and even a Maia is always welcome in my humble home. Just remember to remove your shoes before entering, I've just had my woodblock floors re-varnished. 

[Popples]

The DC area is getting "The Queen at 90" on the 12th, and "The Princes of the Palace" on the 19th on WETA. On MPT, it's episodes of "Death in Paradise."

[StaceyNotStacie]

4 hours ago, Popples said:

The DC area is getting "The Queen at 90" on the 12th, and "The Princes of the Palace" on the 19th on WETA. On MPT, it's episodes of "Death in Paradise."

I've seen "The Queen at 90" on the Smithsonian Channel, along with the two-part special about Buckingham Palace. I'm hoping one of our channels eventually shows "The Princes of the Palace". 

We have two PBS channels in our area. Our main one is WHRO in southeastern Virginia and we also get WUNC based in North Carolina. Both are showing the Lucy Worsley specials. 

[Blergh]

Re Catherine Howard's premarital history: Considering that Henry had ALREADY married four wives and had an untold number of encounters with other women, I find it next to impossible to believe that he wouldn't have known she wasn't a virgin on their wedding night. Yes, it's probable that she had had stuff happen when she was a child against her will but perhaps the molesters didn't technically go all the way with her. Then, too,it's also possible that Henry himself was so enthralled at the thought of having this attractive teen being his alone for the rest of his life that he was willing to not split hairs during the honeymoon.

[Sew Sumi]

I have FOUR shots of seeing it in the Bay Area. NONE of them are coming through. KQED typically falls in the "party line" with primetime programming. Actually, this is this first anomaly I've heard of in years, but as others have chimed in, I think this was an optional add. Bay Area went the cheap route with the repeats of Hidden Killers. 

[Brattinella]

Does KQED or PBS have this episode online?

[Quilt Fairy]

13 minutes ago, Brattinella said:

Does KQED or PBS have this episode online?

This is a link for episode 3 (Anne of Cleves/ Catherine Howard/Catherine Parr).  It says it expires on 2/19/17. 

If you're talking about the 2 specials upcoming, I expect they will be available after they've aired.

[Brattinella]

8 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

This is a link for episode 3 (Anne of Cleves/ Catherine Howard/Catherine Parr).  It says it expires on 2/19/17. 

If you're talking about the 2 specials upcoming, I expect they will be available after they've aired.

Thanks!  Is that the one you missed, Sew Sumi?

[MamaMax]

On 2/9/2017 at 0:52 PM, blackwing said:

I agree.  I didn't care for her depiction as "poor Catherine Howard, a victim of her upbringing".  Worsley appears to be saying that she got abused by her music teacher, and therefore she was psychologically scarred.  Then she slept with her cousin Francis Dereham because she thought it normal to have such relations at such a young age.  And she just couldn't help herself, so when this attractive courtier came calling, she was powerless to prevent herself from sleeping with him.

I don't buy it.  I don't buy the portrayal that Catherine's "tortured childhood" led her down a dark path that ended in her death.  One, she was a cousin of Anne Boleyn.  The family knew what had happened to Anne Boleyn.  Why would they even let Catherine near the court?  They used her to curry favour for the family.  Then she lands the prize, she is Queen of England.  But Henry is old and fat and she was just doing what young horny people always do.  The problem was that she was married to the king and chose to do it anyways.

I'm sure Culpepper got something out of it too... he was bedding the hot young Queen of England.  I guess he thought it was worth the risk.  They obviously both paid dearly for it.

I get what you're saying. What I'm saying is that a woman/girl of the time, especially one from a powerful family, probably had little personal agency.  If she had been molested as a child, at that time in history, who would have borne the shame?  If her family wanted to use her as a pawn for their plans, they would have wanted to keep it a secret that she was tainted. Also, is it really impossible that Culpepper could have raped her? Didn't he rape someone else?  I doubt she ever thought the King would believe her if she tried to say he forced himself on her.  

 

Was there any independent evidence that she was in love with Culpepper? Letters?

[ChelleGame]

This was great. I have a soft spot for Anne.  Anne of a Thousand Days and a sympathetic novel that made me cry as a teenager made her a favorite. Forgot about it then I visited Hever Castle a few years ago and saw the letter she wrote to Henry from the Tower before she was executed. Tudor History is my favorite time period so I never quite get tired of all this no matter how many times I hear it.

On 2/8/2017 at 7:59 AM, Sandman said:

I think I have to leave this here now.

Love that!  I remember that episode.  My favorite Tudor collectible, that I got years ago, are nesting dolls of Henry and all six wives. Catherine Howard is the smallest one so she got short shift from the doll maker too.

Edited February 12, 2017 by ChelleGame

[Sew Sumi]

7 hours ago, Brattinella said:

Thanks!  Is that the one you missed, Sew Sumi?

No, I was referring to the two upcoming specials that are airing tonight and next Sunday in the Wives' slot in some markets. 

[Blergh]

OK, saw it. Not bad but I have to admit I was downright creeped out by Elizabeth I's  gown with dozens of eyes and ears sewn in to let everyone believe she saw and heard everything!

  Also, a bit amusing for Miss Worsley to dress up in  replicas of royal attire  (including male kings') but it did give her as close to a firsthand POV re what they had to go through in both wearing said attire as well even getting dressed. Not surprising that one poor lady-in-waiting in George II's court was recorded as having wet herself in front of the entire court when the queen refused to give her permission to excuse herself  to go into another room and have her own attendants undress her to let her do her business until it was too late but what was surprising is that accidents didn't happen more frequently.

[iMonrey]

The clothing was outrageous, I cannot imagine having to endure wearing such things. But I'm curious to know why none of Elizabeth's famous wardrobe survived. I wonder if it was ordered destroyed by one of her successors, or by the revolutionists during the English civil war. The various dresses seemed so famous and expensive you'd think someone would have kept some of them for posterity.

[Quilt Fairy]

Can you imagine a wife asking her husband, "Does this make my hips/butt look big?" back then?  And if he said yes, it's a compliment!

I thought it was interesting that she started with Elizabeth I, went through to Elizabeth II, but then jumped back in time and the big finish was on Princess Diana. Throwing a big of shade there?

[maraleia]

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I thought it was interesting that she started with Elizabeth I, went through to Elizabeth II, but then jumped back in time and the big finish was on Princess Diana. Throwing a big of shade there?

Well if you read Lucy's twitter feed you can see she is an activist as well as an historian. I heart her so damn much.

[Ananayel]

Quote

The clothing was outrageous, I cannot imagine having to endure wearing such things. But I'm curious to know why none of Elizabeth's famous wardrobe survived. I wonder if it was ordered destroyed by one of her successors, or by the revolutionists during the English civil war. The various dresses seemed so famous and expensive you'd think someone would have kept some of them for posterity.

I just finished reading this book, which goes into a fair bit of detail on that. Basically, they were so very valuable that they were given as gifts to courtiers, repurposed and altered to within an inch of their lives. They often had gold and silver thread, which would have to be picked out before anything was destroyed, precious stones removed, etc. They now think that one of her portrait gowns was redone into an altar cloth, and there are pictures in the book of a hat that almost certainly belonged to Henry, and a pair of her gloves. They couldn't really clean these garments, so if it got too filthy, they would have to take it apart and reuse just the sleeves or collar or something.

[AZChristian]

21 minutes ago, Ananayel said:

They now think that one of her portrait gowns was redone into an altar cloth . . . 

Fascinating article about that altar cloth.

[Arynm]

On 2/14/2017 at 6:54 PM, AZChristian said:

Fascinating article about that altar cloth.

I am going to London in September and I really hope that the cloth is on display. I find it absolutely amazing that something like that could still exist today. They are pretty sure it is the same fabric depicted in the The Rainbow Portrait and I totally agree.

I am also hoping that I run into Dr. Worsley at Hampton Court so I can fangirl and make a total fool of myself. I would love to meet her.