S02.E09: Raiders Of The Lost Art

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

I enjoyed the scene - but at the same time I couldn't help but feel a little sorry for Casper Crump.  Sure, "lets stop Vandal Savage" sucked last season - but I don't think it was necessarily his fault.  I wrote about this in the thread for the finale, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself - but the whole story might have gone better if they had given him anything interesting to do before maybe the last two episodes.  Instead, they basically just had him hanging out with his various minions for all eternity, waiting for the Hawks to show up so he could murder them (again).  It also didn't help that the Legends ended up looking like idiots for failing to kill him week after week.  For the producers now to suggest that was all due his casting (and calling him a "wiener dog" at the same time) felt like a cheap shot.

FWIW, I also said I would've preferred to see the Legends track Vandal on a Carmen Sandiego-esque race through time, which appears to be what we're getting this year with the LoD - so yay. ;)

I agree with you about it being a bit too much of the blame put on his shoulders.  The Hawks were just as bad if not worse and the writing was just off for the character.  That said, right after the crossover that introduced him,  I heard from self proclaimed Vandal Savage fans that said they got the casting completely wrong so maybe there's more to it than I can see.  

Still, I laughed and loved that they owned up to at least one mistake in episode.  

[squidprincess]

It's funny, I actually came out of it with a different impression.  Both of the performances of "Rip" and "Vandal" in the student film were laughably bad.  But the scene they were referencing was one of the few scenes where I thought Vandal's menace and intellect came through.  And I think that was entirely on the strength of Crump (and Darvill), because, as these actors show, it certainly wasn't the script that made the scene work.

If they really wanted to slam Crump, then they should have used one of his scenes with Kendra.  Because that's generally where he seemed the most uncomfortable with the role.  He seemed to sell it at lot better with Rip than Kendra, IMO.

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Which begs the biggest question, why don't they add a speedster to their own team?

Except in Central City, speedsters don't exactly grow on trees.  Figure at this point the only speedster capable of dealing with Thawne is Barry Allen who has his own show.  Neither Wally nor Jesse Quick has the power or experience to deal with Thawne.  But they would be a threat to him, so he'd just murder them.  The main reason Thawne doesn't kill the Legends when he easily could is because he knows he could easily kill them.  The Reverse Flash came out of Thawne's envy of Barry Allen's success.  He wants the spotlight.  He wants to preen and strut.  He wants the Legends as an audience who can appreciate his power and genius.  Since he knows he can murder them whenever he wants, there's no rush.

[Miss Dee]

It would be cool if he actually said that to them at some point. "I can kill you anytime I want and you can't do a damn thing about it; kinda want you around for my own purposes right now though, so enjoy life while it's granted to you. By me."

@Chyromaniac, I get where you're coming from. Ideally someone would have shot back about how maybe the writing or direction weren't helping matters with regards to Savage. Although maybe Caspar Crump understands and appreciates the joke, who knows? Or maybe he's a total asshole so they don't care.

[Argenta]

6 hours ago, squidprincess said:

It's funny, I actually came out of it with a different impression.  Both of the performances of "Rip" and "Vandal" in the student film were laughably bad.  But the scene they were referencing was one of the few scenes where I thought Vandal's menace and intellect came through.  And I think that was entirely on the strength of Crump (and Darvill), because, as these actors show, it certainly wasn't the script that made the scene work.

If they really wanted to slam Crump, then they should have used one of his scenes with Kendra.  Because that's generally where he seemed the most uncomfortable with the role.  He seemed to sell it at lot better with Rip than Kendra, IMO.

I wholly agree that Thawne, Merlyn and Dahrk are far superior to Savage as characters and adversaries. But as funny as I found the Savage-bashing scene, I also winced slightly and found myself hoping Caspar Crump wasn't watching. Or if he was, that he has a thick skin. I feel like the failure of Savage as a villain was due to a variety of factors and digging at him so openly seems mean. 

[Proteus]

For a second I was hopeful the show was going to say Snart is still alive and they just needed to put his molecules back together or something after Stein and Mick had their conversation about Snart being a time ghost. But that didn't seem to go anywhere. I do wonder if the Spear of Destiny will be used to write him back into reality.

So glad that Rip is back. I loved all of his scenes as Phil. I also loved all of his scenes with Sara. I liked their convo where Sara told Rip what he means to her. Also liked her finding out Rip made her the protagonist of his story.

I thought they did a good job with the George Lucas stuff and I found it funny. Funniest scene to me though was Malcolm and Damien in the elevator.

Im still annoyed with Nate. I rolled my eyes as Sara upset about possibly losing her historian. Losing Rays intelligence I get. But I refuse to believe that losing Nate would hurt the team at all.

I liked hearing Gideon call Sara captain.

Also liked how Sara just walked off after seeing Stein performing brain surgery on Mick.

[Sakura12]

I would love if Sara just keeps calling the spear, the Holy Lance.

[MarkHB]

1 hour ago, Argenta said:

I wholly agree that Thawne, Merlyn and Dahrk are far superior to Savage as characters and adversaries. But as funny as I found the Savage-bashing scene, I also winced slightly and found myself hoping Caspar Crump wasn't watching. Or if he was, that he has a thick skin. I feel like the failure of Savage as a villain was due to a variety of factors and digging at him so openly seems mean. 

I took it as digging at their rendition of Savage, and not at Crump's personal acting ability at all.  Unless Caspar Crump was a total jerk on-set, I see no reason why they would do the latter.

[KirkB]

For all the problems I had with Savage last season, Crump's acting wasn't the biggest. I mean, I do think he was miscast in the role, but I always got the sense the actor was doing his best. He just didn't seem to have much to work with. And I lay that blame more on the writers, producers and directors, who didn't seem to have much of a plan for Savage beyond "he's immortal". Now maybe the larger issue was they didn't know what to do because of his limited range or something, but that's still on them since they chose him in the first place.

[blackwing]

Loved this episode, it was a lot of fun.  Loved the appearance of "GLUCAS" and the reference to increasingly prevalent gluten-free concerns.  Amaya being from the 1940s would never have even heard of gluten.  Loved all the references to Star Wars and Indiana Jones.  

I got a kick out of "Legion of Doom" being named after "an old Hanna Barbera cartoon I used to watch".  It's a bit strange though, because during the crossover, they met Flash and Supergirl.  Flash is IN the Superfriends, so Nate should have been all "hey, were you a fan also and copied your name from the show" when he met Barry Allen.

I am curious about what movie Gideon chose for them.  They at least could have left the camera lingering on the three of them while the first few seconds of the movie started.  Would have been fun trying to identify based on the dialogue or sounds what movie it was.

On 1/25/2017 at 10:52 AM, SnoGirl said:

Did anyone count how many references there were to Star Wars and Indiana Jones in this episode? We had:

1) Amaya and the "you're our only hope" line

2) The Dumpster scene (George Lucas was totally Chewie right)

3) The fact that it was Amaya and the boys working with George escaping and then they're eventually joined by two more like in A New Hope when they're rescuing Leia and the droids join them.

4) The blasters everyone apparently had (seriously, the nosie sounded just like the Star Wars Blasters)

5) I kinda think Rip with his gun scene was homage to Indiana Jones gun versus the sword fight

6) Chasing the Spear of Destiny is very Indiana Jones

Was there more?

Jax's outfit - tan leather jacket with red piping and black pants - looked very much like what Finn wears in Force Awakens.

The trash compactor scene was awesome, especially when Amaya says word for word, "don't just stand there, try and brace it with something".

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, KirkB said:

For all the problems I had with Savage last season, Crump's acting wasn't the biggest. I mean, I do think he was miscast in the role, but I always got the sense the actor was doing his best. He just didn't seem to have much to work with. And I lay that blame more on the writers, producers and directors, who didn't seem to have much of a plan for Savage beyond "he's immortal". Now maybe the larger issue was they didn't know what to do because of his limited range or something, but that's still on them since they chose him in the first place.

One problem with Vandal Savage is that he really wasn't Vandal Savage.  He was an amalgamation of Vandal Savage and the character Hath-Set.  The comics Vandal Savage was a tribal leader who was exposed to radiation from a meteor that granted him immortality.  This happened 50,000 years ago.   He has a great deal of experience in, well, almost everything including science and magic.  He has nigh-unlimited wealth and multiple organizations to provide him with influence and minions.  He is extremely good at manipulating other people because he's had 50K years of dealing with.  He's cultured, sophisticated and arrogant.  At his core, though, he still maintains the vicious, "gut you like a trout" mentality of the bloodthirsty tribal leader he started as.

[Argenta]

7 hours ago, Proteus said:

I thought they did a good job with the George Lucas stuff and I found it funny. Funniest scene to me though was Malcolm and Damien in the elevator.

Yes. I loved that little scene. Especially with the elevator music in the background. So cute.

My other favourite Legion scene was when Rip's gun dramatically failed and Damien tilts his head at him like WTF, then all three of them start laughing at him.I love those guys so much.

I also enjoyed the Lucas parts, particularly the way the Legends kept calling him by his full name.

Ray: "Glad you changed your mind, George Lucas!"

Other great bit was Rip trying to attack Jax by hitting him with his rolled up script ? Overall a hugely fun episode!

[Argenta]

On 25/01/2017 at 4:46 AM, TDT said:

I wonder if the first movie they watched was either THX-1138 or American Graffiti..

I bet Gideon picked the Star Wars Holiday Special just to mess with them.

[Sakura12]

They have a time ship, couldn't they watch the Last Jedi? I would. Amaya might be lost but she would for any of those movies being they had nothing like them in the 1940's. 

[MarkHB]

11 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They have a time ship, couldn't they watch the Last Jedi? I would. Amaya might be lost but she would for any of those movies being they had nothing like them in the 1940's. 

Well, the title scroll for "A New Hope" sets it up pretty well, and Flash Gordon existed in her time, so I think she'd get the idea. Plus, then we'd get this exchange:

Amaya: "Episode 4? Why aren't we starting with Episode 1?"

Gideon: "I'll have to ask you to trust me, Miss Jiwe."

[Sakura12]

Well she's also currently flying around in a real space ship and fought aliens, so she might not be that impressed with them. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 1/26/2017 at 1:08 AM, BkWurm1 said:

 I heard from self proclaimed Vandal Savage fans that said they got the casting completely wrong so maybe there's more to it than I can see.  

 

Raises hand. I was one of them. When I heard about his casting and actually saw him (because I wasn't familiar with him at all), my reaction was "you've got to be kidding me." This guy just looks puny compared to how Vandal Savage is supposed to look like. He's supposed to be massive and huge. And how the show linked him to the Hawks just irked me. I didn't find him menacing or scary.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Raises hand. I was one of them. When I heard about his casting and actually saw him (because I wasn't familiar with him at all), my reaction was "you've got to be kidding me." This guy just looks puny compared to how Vandal Savage is supposed to look like. He's supposed to be massive and huge. And how the show linked him to the Hawks just irked me. I didn't find him menacing or scary.

I don't know, I thought he did pretty well, especially interacting with Rip.  The biggest problem for me was him always sniffing after Hawkgirl.  Vandal Savage is many things, but a Law and Order:SVU villain isn't one of them.

For me thing is that the plots that had him doing weren't things he'd be doing himself.  Selling a nuke, experimenting on small-town teens and playing tutor to a future Hitler?  He has people for that.  He actually has people who have people who have people and a couple three more iterations of "who have people" before we get to "for that."  Savage predates human civilization buy like, a lot.  He might well have invented civilization.  This guy was playing and winning the "Game of Thrones" before anyone figured out how to make chairs AKA thrones.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

21 hours ago, blackwing said:

I got a kick out of "Legion of Doom" being named after "an old Hanna Barbera cartoon I used to watch".  It's a bit strange though, because during the crossover, they met Flash and Supergirl.  Flash is IN the Superfriends, so Nate should have been all "hey, were you a fan also and copied your name from the show" when he met Barry Allen.

That is an excellent point! Supergirl was in it, too!  I guess that Nate's cartoon is not the same as our cartoon. 

[squidprincess]

I didn't mind Savage being hands on in his projects.  He always seemed like the sort to occasionally like to get his hands dirty and remind himself of the more primal parts of life.  I can imagine that while he's fooling around with hawk monster-teens, he's got underlings doing more important stuff.  A guy needs a break to relax sometimes.

I think my biggest problem was the Hath-Set part of his motivation.  Like johntfs says, Vandal Savage isn't a Law and Order: SVU villain.  His grudge against Rip made sense for the character.  I think there are two parts to that grudge: the first is that Rip is the enemy who comes closest to actually killing him, and has access to weapons and technology beyond Savage's ken.  The second is that Rip is indefatigable: it doesn't matter what he does to this guy, imprisonment, torture, eventual murder of his family, this guy just keeps trying to thwart and defy him.  For someone as obsessed with power as Savage, it makes sense that this person would be his cult's satan figure.  The one person he's obsessed with defeating above everyone else.

Kendra/Chay'ara is a very beautiful woman.  But Hath-Set's motives are far baser than Savage's.  Lust and possession are all well and good, but how many times can you continue to murder a girl who says no, before it just gets old?  I suppose in one sense, the motive with Kendra at this point is very similar to the motive with Rip: this is the one person who keeps defying him no matter how much power he has.  But I don't think that aspect really carries through.  It should be about rage/greed, not lust at this point.  That doesn't really come through in his scenes with her.  I think that's a problem with the writing/direction more than acting.  They've made the Kendra obsession about sex, and the Rip obsession about power.  Really BOTH obsessions should be about power.

[yellowfred]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

For me thing is that the plots that had him doing weren't things he'd be doing himself.  Selling a nuke, experimenting on small-town teens and playing tutor to a future Hitler?  He has people for that.  He actually has people who have people who have people and a couple three more iterations of "who have people" before we get to "for that." 

Yeah, that was my main problem with him, too.  He was in almost every episode and, in most of them, he was working alone.  It also didn't help that, on his own, he just never came across as all that imposing, which made it particularly annoying that the team never seemed to do better than breaking even with him.

I think that's one of the things that has really helped this season:  they've legitimately had victories against the Legion of Doom.  Like, obviously they've had a lot of set backs, too, but there's a sense that they're continually making progress. 

[squidprincess]

2 hours ago, yellowfred said:

Yeah, that was my main problem with him, too.  He was in almost every episode and, in most of them, he was working alone.  It also didn't help that, on his own, he just never came across as all that imposing, which made it particularly annoying that the team never seemed to do better than breaking even with him.

I think that's one of the things that has really helped this season:  they've legitimately had victories against the Legion of Doom.  Like, obviously they've had a lot of set backs, too, but there's a sense that they're continually making progress. 

I don't think it's a matter of the team having had "legitimate victories" over Eobard, but a matter that Eobard has a very clear plan and we can see him actually having set backs.

Every time the team clashed with Vandal Savage, with the exception of Progeny and River of Time, they had a fairly clear victory: they stopped his nuclear weapon sale (Pilot), they got Carter's body back and dismantled his cult (Pilot 2->Blood Ties), they stopped the Firestorm program (White Knight, Failsafe), they stopped the hawk-teenaged-whatever that nonsense was and blew up his lab (Night of the Hawk), and they destroyed the Leviathan and captured Savage (Leviathan).

But the problem is, I think, that the team kept encountering Savage at different times, when he was just doing his thing.  They would inevitably wreck the thing, but it never felt like a real victory, because we didn't get to see him deal with the setback and regroup.  Every time they met him, he was back in command of something new.

Eobard on the other hand, basically comes out with something he wants in every encounter.  We only briefly glimpse him in Out of Time, but in JSA, he kills Rex and gets the amulet.  In Compromised, he loses the other half but gets Darhk.  In Chicago Way, he gets both halves and assembles the compass.  In Raiders, he loses the compass, but gets Rip.   Even when he loses, he kind of wins.  But it feels like more of a victory for the team, because we can see that Eobard is planning something.  We see him have to rethink and regroup.  So we can actually appreciate the win.

Edited January 27, 2017 by squidprincess

[yellowfred]

That's a fair point, and I don't mean to say that they never did anything well last season.  The bigger issue, to me, was their lack of progress.  Like, getting Carter's body back and stopping the Firestorm program were both instances of them basically getting back to zero, since those were all problems that they caused.  Stopping the mutant hawk factory and the nuclear bomb sale were certainly more positive, but neither of those things were actually related to his ultimate rise to power (i.e. we already knew he eventually used a mutant-hawk-free army to take over the world).  Plus, stopping the nuclear bomb sale was also how Savage found out who they all were and gave him the idea for developing Firestorm (and almost the ability to make an ATOM suit way ahead of schedule).  Not to mention, after nearly every one of their encounters with him, until Leviathan, the problem remained that they didn't really know how to find him again and didn't really have a way to kill him. 

This season, beyond the whole back and forth of artifact possession, they've made a lot more tangible progress.  At the beginning of the season, they only knew that there was some rogue time traveler they were tracking.  Now, they know that he's a speedster, who he's working with, what he's after, and how to track him.  So, even if they have setbacks, they're not back at zero, the way they often were last season.

[kismet]

Just loved this episode!! A lot of you have already mentioned the great moments, the different pairings. I actually think MM & DD work so well together because they both ham it up together so well. I actually think part of the reason they need to bring in Thawne is because MM/DD are having too much fun time traveling. It's almost like Thawne has to come in as the parent and ruin all the fun the kids were having.

Enjoyed the Lucas movie moments, although I do think they said the name George Lucas way too much. And I knew the garbage compactor scene felt very familiar. I have seen all the Star Wars (minus the newest one), but its been awhile. So when I saw them in the compactor, I got significant deja vu, now I know why. Personally, I've seen Indiana Jones more than I've seen Star Wars. And I'm glad they kept which movie they showed first a secret. Lucas films are special and everyone has their favorite. To single one out, would just no be fair. Plus they probably would have to pay a licensing fee or something. And in the end, R & N said they were basically going to watch them all anyway.

So many favorite moments, but I really loved the brain surgery moment. Such a nonchalant reaction. A great scene stealer from the subplot.

I did enjoy that they took a dig at themselves. I feel like it was more about them and not about CC's acting. Personally, CC acting was the only thing that saved the VS role.

I do want to give credit to the writers because I think they managed to pull off an amazing episode. The pacing was awesome. The plot was tight. The homages were spot on. The pairings were fun & not repetitive. And the quips were stellar. It really was a well-executed episode from script to screen. I also hope it brings in new eyes, because LoT deserves more fans and buzz. 

[DearEvette]

I just giggled every single time they said his name it was his full name "George Lucas"  -- But it totally makes sense because think about it, every single generic person who doesn't know him personally probably always does refer to him as Geroge Lucas -- full name. I know I do.

I honestly hate Thawne in this show.  He is basically a Deus Ex Machina for the bad guys.  For all Damien and Merlyn are supposed to be such master villains, Thawne has come out of nowhere several times and snatched them from the jaws of defeat.

[jhlipton]

Just now, DearEvette said:

I honestly hate Thawne in this show.  He is basically a Deus Ex Machina for the bad guys.  For all Damien and Merlyn are supposed to be such master villains, Thawne has come out of nowhere several times and snatched them from the jaws of defeat.

Yes, this.  I don't give a crap about why the Legends can't stop him; I don't give a crap about what happens (or happened) on other shows -- it's up to the writers to stop making him come out of nowhere and "steal the day" (or whatever the opposite of "save the day" is.  The Legends are only alive because of Plot Armor. Even if Thawne needs an audience, he doesn't need all of them.  Killing Jax would not only eliminate Firestorm, it would demoralize Stein immensely.

They should have created a foe who was a speedster or a time-traveler but not both.  And saying "But Barry can do both" doesn't do a thing for me -- I don't care.

Having a speedster on their side wouldn't help much as we'd just have to watch the two of them fight while everyone else struck Mannequin Poses.

[kismet]

I don't really care about how they are using Thawne because I'm having too much fun with the show. I don't want someone on the team to die, just because it makes for a logical plotline. I don't care if Thawne is literally winning the same way every week. The team is making progress every week. They'll find a way to defeat Thawne in the finale because that is what this show is designed to do. Entertain for a week's time, and then find a solution in the last episode.

I actually don't think they will defeat Thawne because I think having the Legions of Doom is a good villain for them. But I could see Thawne moving on to a new plan. And I could see them keeping the LoD around as a bad guy organization. I don't know what next seasons cat-mouse chase through time will be. But having the LoD menacing through time as a subplot would be entertaining. Personally, I think the Flarrowverses are too quick to get rid of their season's big bads to prop up their main characters as Heroes. If something is working why eliminate it? There can be victories without killing the Big Bad. It saves the shows from having to bring them back from the dead.

[squidprincess]

Have they really been winning?  The team has had some clear unequivocal victories but they were in episodes like Abominations and Outlaw Country.  Shogun, arguably, but that was caused by Ray and his suit.  They didn't even know there was any connection between Rex's killer, the aberrations and Rip's disappearance until this episode.

It isn't clear that Eobard intended anything from the nuke in New York, or the JSA thing except to lure the team there.  Chicago Way explicitly told us the same about the Eliot Ness fiasco.

Right now, the team knows there's a speedster but not his name or origin.  They know about Darhk and Merlyn because they weren't hiding.  They can't track Eobard himself, only the aberrations that he'shouldn't caused deliberately to lure them there.  They did get the compass, but they lost the only person who has any knowledge of what's going on.  My guess is that next step, the team will start trying to find the rest of the spear and it's hard not to see that as just saving Eobard some legwork.

I am sure the team will be able to stop Eobard by the end of the season, but right now, the team has very little to show for their efforts.

I don't see that as the team's fault though, it's more of an effect of the weird stagnancy of the metaplot in the first half of the season.  The team wasn't allowed to be proactive or move forward in the metaplot, or even be aware of the metaplot until now.  It reminds me a lot of the first season of Agents of SHIELD before the Hydra reveal.  There were standalone episodes, hints of a larger theme, lots of great character development.  But they were kind of stuck in a holding pattern until the could go forward with the HYDRA stuff.  Now the Legion is revealed and things are moving.  So I think we'll start seeing a lot more metaplot action and clear unequivocal victories for the team.

I do tend to think Eobard will survive the season though.  Why waste an effective villain?

Edited January 28, 2017 by squidprincess

[kismet]

I never said they were winning.  I said they were making progress.  They have part of the stick and the medallion thing. They found Rip even if by chance. I'm content with that. I'm sure they will win in the finale. 

Personally winning feels a little overrated these days.

[zannej]

On 1/25/2017 at 9:54 AM, mrspidey said:

I liked the meta acknowledgement that Vandal Savage was a horribly miscast villain.

Yeah. I really got a chuckle about that. The comment about the lack of menace from him reflected what I felt about Vandal throughout last season.

On 1/25/2017 at 0:30 PM, KirkB said:

Not only that, look at their track records. Malcolm and Dark tried and failed to defeat Oliver Queen. Dark even paid for his failure with his life. Malcolm gave up a hand. In fact neither of them succeeded in most of their devious plans. Thawne, on the other hand, succeeded at nearly everything. He manipulated Barry and his world for years, and very nearly made it home. He would have killed everyone on team Flash at the end if not for his own ancestor. He managed to kill Barry's mom twice, the second time with Barry's help, and in doing so secured his own freedom. I imagine he's only using Malcolm and Dark now because he needs marginally competent cannon fodder to keep the Legends busy.

It's entirely possible that he is using them to distract the Legends in some regard, but that they are also useful to him for other reasons. He may actually like both of them to an extent as well. But I doubt he would hesitate to off them if he thought they were going to interfere with his plans.

On 1/25/2017 at 1:37 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

So if George Lucas had not directed his films, Ray would be a surgeon, but Nate would be a yoga instructor?  No insult meant to yoga instructors, but what does that say about Nate's natural intellectual curiosity versus Ray's?  It seemed like a dig.

I wonder if the writers remember that Nate was a hemophiliac. I mean, isn't there a chance of falling and getting bruised in yoga? (I mean this seriously, I've never tried yoga and don't know what it entails other than seeing people do weird contortions).

On 1/25/2017 at 1:56 PM, tennisgurl said:

Show wins more points by not so subtlety throwing shade at the whole Savage plot last year. You could almost hear the writers saying to the audience "I know we screwed up some last season, we`re trying to do better, we promise"! It takes a big show to not only admit they made mistakes, but also try to fix them. I`ll take the Legion of Doom (Superfriends for the win!) over Savage any day of the week.

I had missed the mention of Superfriends.

I'm not sure if they were actually throwing shade so much as echoing what some fans said about Vandal and lacking menace.

I loved the looks on Damien's and Malcom's faces when Rip was telling them how great their acting was. LOL.

On 1/25/2017 at 3:52 PM, KirkB said:

I'm not sure it is bad writing. Wally is still new and Barry gets easily distracted. Thawne, on the other hand, has both experience and focus. Speaking of experience, no one on this team has any fighting speedsters and they aren't really equipped to do so. Sure, Nate or Sara could probably take Thawne down if they got their hands on him but that's part of the problem. He can punch every one of them a hundred times before they're even aware he's in the room. My question is, why aren't they dead? Reverse Flash never killed Barry in any of their early confrontations because he needed the Flash alive for a while so his plans could work. There is no reason for him to not zip in faster than they can blink and snap their necks, except for the likelihood he must need them for something.

Yeah, my guess is that if he *really* wanted them to be dead, he'd kill them but that he needs them for something. I suspect that the alarm that went off on his watch when he was about to kill Amaya was something to warn him that it would have undesired effects if he killed her so he let her live.

On 1/25/2017 at 10:51 PM, Chyromaniac said:

I enjoyed the scene - but at the same time I couldn't help but feel a little sorry for Casper Crump.  Sure, "lets stop Vandal Savage" sucked last season - but I don't think it was necessarily his fault.  I wrote about this in the thread for the finale, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself - but the whole story might have gone better if they had given him anything interesting to do before maybe the last two episodes.  Instead, they basically just had him hanging out with his various minions for all eternity, waiting for the Hawks to show up so he could murder them (again).  It also didn't help that the Legends ended up looking like idiots for failing to kill him week after week.  For the producers now to suggest that was all due his casting (and calling him a "wiener dog" at the same time) felt like a cheap shot.

FWIW, I also said I would've preferred to see the Legends track Vandal on a Carmen Sandiego-esque race through time, which appears to be what we're getting this year with the LoD - so yay. ;)

I thought that Casper Crump did a good job with what he was given, but that the writing really didn't give him too much to really get in to the character. And there was something about his eyes that just seemed too kind and soft to be believable as the killer.

On 1/26/2017 at 0:08 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I agree with you about it being a bit too much of the blame put on his shoulders.  The Hawks were just as bad if not worse and the writing was just off for the character.  That said, right after the crossover that introduced him,  I heard from self proclaimed Vandal Savage fans that said they got the casting completely wrong so maybe there's more to it than I can see.  

Still, I laughed and loved that they owned up to at least one mistake in episode.  

Yeah-- but even if they had a more menacing actor, the plot was just too convoluted and the motivations for the character just seemed kinda weak.

On 1/26/2017 at 10:42 AM, MarkHB said:

I took it as digging at their rendition of Savage, and not at Crump's personal acting ability at all.  Unless Caspar Crump was a total jerk on-set, I see no reason why they would do the latter.

I agree.

On 1/26/2017 at 6:00 PM, Argenta said:

Yes. I loved that little scene. Especially with the elevator music in the background. So cute.

My other favourite Legion scene was when Rip's gun dramatically failed and Damien tilts his head at him like WTF, then all three of them start laughing at him.I love those guys so much.

I also enjoyed the Lucas parts, particularly the way the Legends kept calling him by his full name.

Ray: "Glad you changed your mind, George Lucas!"

Other great bit was Rip trying to attack Jax by hitting him with his rolled up script ? Overall a hugely fun episode!

I admit, I actually like the Legion of Doom better than some of the Legends team. I could probably watch  whole show about the Legion and their antics.

I loved the bit where Malcolm wanted to go see a star on the walk of fame and Damien pointed out they had a time crunch. He'd already been around in that era so it was nothing new to him. Then the bit with the bikers. I loved the looks they exchanged and how easily they dispatched those bikers.

Loved that elevator scene too.

I do wonder if they were pissed at Eobard for zipping away when the lasers blasted and letting them get knocked down (unless he pushed them out of the way and zipped off). I do wonder what he's been up to while they were interacting with the Legends.

The laughter they let out when Rip's gun wouldn't fire was great.

I wonder if Eobard's plan is to keep the Legends of alive, but he can't let the other two guys know that because if they hold back or let slip to the Legends, they might pick up on his plan somehow.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

So, since Ray was a surgeon, (although not necessarily a brain surgeon) if Mick had confided in him, he could have removed the chip, freeing up Martin for Firestorm. Of course, Ray's encouragement of George Lucas would have been missing, but with Firestorm available, perhaps he wouldn't have been so afraid in the first place.

For those who are enjoying Darhk and Merlyn's camaraderie, it certainly looks like they wiped out an entire police station without a second thought.

Edited January 29, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

For those who are enjoying Dahrk and Merlyn's camaraderie, it certainly looks like they wiped out an entire police station without a second thought.

It was extra menacing because of the almost cheerful manner in which they casually knifed the poor guy.

 

On 1/26/2017 at 6:34 PM, Sakura12 said:

They have a time ship, couldn't they watch the Last Jedi? I would. Amaya might be lost but she would for any of those movies being they had nothing like them in the 1940's. 

Technically not a George Lucas film.  ;)

[Sakura12]

I know, but I'd choose a film that I haven't seen over one that I have.

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I know, but I'd choose a film that I haven't seen over one that I have.

Can you imagine how hard it would be to pick a movie from all the new options?

Edited January 29, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Sakura12]

If I was watching movies in a time ship I'd be asking for all the movies I know about that haven't come out yet. 

[BkWurm1]

18 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

If I was watching movies in a time ship I'd be asking for all the movies I know about that haven't come out yet. 

I'd probably skip ahead to find out how Arrow turns out.  ;)  And then if Olicity wasn't a thing borrow that lovely stick that changes reality.  Sorrynotsorry.  

[Starfish35]

Due to work issues I am just being able to watch this episode, but I loved it.  Flawless? No.  But immensely enjoyable.  I love that Amaya becomes part of the inspiration for Leia, that Sara is the hero of Rip's story, Malcolm and Darhk's evil twin act, and them throwing shade at Vandal Savage.  As someone who did believe Casper Crump to be their worst casting misstep since Katie Cassidy,  I thought it was hilarious. (I have to be honest and admit part of it was his lisp.)

[RobertDeSneero]

So, the Spear of Destiny can be used to rewrite reality....like bringing a dead character back to life?

[kismet]

Oh if the Spear can do that... I have a very small list of dead characters out of the very long dead Flarrowverse characters I find acceptable for it to be used for. And I hope it doesn't work like that... I'm so over Dead People coming back to life. Now putting people back together who may have been split into a million pieces saving the universe, well I could make an exception for him.

[Starfish35]

Moved to Speculation thread.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Starfish35

[Cekrypton1]

So, I've been waiting for some kind of in-show explanation, but where/when are Darhk, Merlyn, and Reverse-Flash from?

Given his hand, I assume Merlyn is the one from the present-day Arrowverse timeline.

Darhk has to be from earlier, as he is dead (spoiler!) "today" in Arrowverse.

And R-F?

Also, how are they time traveling?

[squidprincess]

31 minutes ago, Cekrypton1 said:

So, I've been waiting for some kind of in-show explanation, but where/when are Darhk, Merlyn, and Reverse-Flash from?

Given his hand, I assume Merlyn is the one from the present-day Arrowverse timeline.

Darhk has to be from earlier, as he is dead (spoiler!) "today" in Arrowverse.

And R-F?

Also, how are they time traveling?

This was shown a little in the episode Compromised (Fifth episode of this season.)

We don't know where Merlyn came from yet, but we saw Eobard recruit Darhk in 1987.  He had a time sphere, like the one he had Cisco build in the Flash season finale.  (This may be significant, because in said season finale, Eobard claimed that Rip Hunter built the first one.  It's also Rip Hunter's primary means of time travel in the comics.)  Anyway, the time sphere is how Darhk, and presumably Merlyn, travel though time.

I had originally assumed that the Reverse Flash was the one from Flashpoint.  But now I wonder, because it certainly seemed like he recognized Martin.  I am starting to wonder if this Eobard may actually remember being Harrison.  (Maybe the grandfather paradox is what he wants to fix with the spear?)

Edited January 30, 2017 by squidprincess

[jay741982]

On 1/26/2017 at 7:16 PM, Argenta said:

I bet Gideon picked the Star Wars Holiday Special just to mess with them.

I was hoping she picked "Howard the Duck" to mess with Ray and Nate. FWIW, I like Howard The Duck as well as Star Wars 

On 1/28/2017 at 11:37 PM, Sakura12 said:

If I was watching movies in a time ship I'd be asking for all the movies I know about that haven't come out yet. 

Oh yes I'd do the same

Edited January 31, 2017 by jay741982

[dkb]

On 1/25/2017 at 9:38 PM, tennisgurl said:

Ray should clearly wear tank tops more often. Niiiiiiice.

Hello Ray/Brendan! Those arms!

On 1/25/2017 at 10:08 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

I thought his inspiration for becoming a historian was his grandfather, though, not Indiana Jones? 

(EDIT: Not that it has to be one or the other necessarily, but this episode made it seem like it was all due to Indy.)

 

On 1/26/2017 at 11:06 AM, Proteus said:

For a second I was hopeful the show was going to say Snart is still alive and they just needed to put his molecules back together or something after Stein and Mick had their conversation about Snart being a time ghost. But that didn't seem to go anywhere. I do wonder if the Spear of Destiny will be used to write him back into reality.

So glad that Rip is back. I loved all of his scenes as Phil. I also loved all of his scenes with Sara. I liked their convo where Sara told Rip what he means to her. Also liked her finding out Rip made her the protagonist of his story.

I thought they did a good job with the George Lucas stuff and I found it funny. Funniest scene to me though was Malcolm and Damien in the elevator.

Im still annoyed with Nate. I rolled my eyes as Sara upset about possibly losing her historian. Losing Rays intelligence I get. But I refuse to believe that losing Nate would hurt the team at all.

I liked hearing Gideon call Sara captain.

Also liked how Sara just walked off after seeing Stein performing brain surgery on Mick.

 

On 1/28/2017 at 5:37 PM, zannej said:

I wonder if the writers remember that Nate was a hemophiliac. I mean, isn't there a chance of falling and getting bruised in yoga? (I mean this seriously, I've never tried yoga and don't know what it entails other than seeing people do weird contortions).

Nate's still annoying to me as well. 
-So now Nate became a historian because of Indiana Jones? I thought it was because he couldn't go live because of his blood disorder, and/or because he wanted to know more about history and his grandpa. 

Is Nate going to have an ever changing backstory about what made him a historian.
 

On 1/26/2017 at 7:00 PM, Argenta said:

Yes. I loved that little scene. Especially with the elevator music in the background. So cute.

My other favourite Legion scene was when Rip's gun dramatically failed and Damien tilts his head at him like WTF, then all three of them start laughing at him.I love those guys so much.

I also enjoyed the Lucas parts, particularly the way the Legends kept calling him by his full name.

Ray: "Glad you changed your mind, George Lucas!"

Other great bit was Rip trying to attack Jax by hitting him with his rolled up script ? Overall a hugely fun episode!

Love Captain Sara

Lol at Rip beating Jax with the script. And Rip getting arrested

-"Non-lethal weapon," that was a great line.

Mick: " Well two of them are."

Stein: "A new milestone for you." the look on Mick's face was hilarious 

- "Isn't that what you pretend to be allergic to, Ray," Amaya is getting in on the comedy too.

 

I loved this episode, it was super funny and just really well done.

Edited February 15, 2017 by dkb

[Sakura12]

I don't think Nate even knows he is a historian. When has his supposed knowledge been helpful to the team?