S04.E02: In Plain Sight

[CooperTV]

Quote

 

After a big discovery, Crane and Jenny struggle with breaking some difficult news to Diana. Meanwhile, the team learns that there may be witchcraft involved in a new case. Can Crane find a way to tell Diana what he knows?

 

Promo pictures

[janeta]

Ooh Headless! :)

Ouch, road founder! :(

Yeah, officially tired of Molly.

-sigh- i miss Abbie. I also miss Nicole Beharie on my tv.

[Blackhoney]

Fox didn't preview this episode for the press, so I didn't see it. I've seen episodes 3 and 4 though. Doesn't sound like I missed much, but now I know how Molly got her voice back- apparently seeing Crane did it. 

[Commando Cody]

This is bad. I can't believe they gave this show another season. I don't know what it is with Diana other than no screen presence whatsoever. They must be on a tight budget and cast the least expensive actors they could find. Casting children can be risky. It didn't pay off here. Children don't belong in this show. The script was terrible tonight and so was the acting. 

[retrograde]

I accept this reboot was never going to bring back the magic of S1, but it surely doesn't have to be this bad. Sleepy Hollow at its best was funny and fun and had great and interesting characters. Now the dialogue is so boring, and the characters other than Crane and Jenny just seem to be bland CSISVUNCIS tropes (eccentric geeks in the lab, tough single mom cop with a heart of gold acting as reluctant foil for oddball crime-fighting partner). Even Crane largely seems to have lost his man-out-of-time-ness that provided so much of the old humor, and is now just a guy who gives a lot of exposition with old fashioned words. 

Edited January 14, 2017 by retrograde

[CooperTV]

I liked it, warts and Charmed-esque witches and special effects and all. I like the dynamic between the new characters, and they managed to cram a lot of various plot points and character moments in the first fifteen minutes, I though it was already the end and was surprised it was barely the first half.

The episode also had all hallmarks of Sleepy Hollow: a Revolutionary War flashbacks with supernatural serving to George Washington, a fish-out-of-the-water character who's confused but willing to believe the impossible, wacky villains, etc. The Jenny and Ichabod scenes were great at the beginning. I think they hit just right with the interactions and shared sadness and grief while also moving the next Witness mystery forward. Jake and Crane were hilarious as well, with Tom Mison bringing his A-work into Ichabod's forced politeness, "This is awkward, I'd wish you leave me alone" body language. And of course Jake would think Ichabod is a Doctor Who time traveler. How would Alex react to the truth, though? It sure will blow her mind!

I like Molly. Their first encounter with Ichabod was kind of surprising to me, since I thought they'd prolong this more. I'm interested how the adult cast will fair with their acting against a child, though. Janina Gavankar probably has it hardest so far, but I'm sure Mison is up to the challenge. Ichabod's relationship to the new incarnation of the Witness who is a child intrigues me greatly.

A bit iffy on not-telling-Diana-the-truth bit. But on the other hand, it's understandable how something like that would be hard to say to mere stranger, "Hi, your little angel over there is my mystical soulmate in the war against the evil that was foretold in the Bible, don't freak out! Much!". ...Yeah.

The Villain Dude is OTT but I found he's not OTT enough. His scenes were distracting as hell.

[TDT]

Since the girl who plays Molly is a former Masterchef Junior contestant,and that show is premiering soon,might we be expecting a crossover/promotion-type deal at some point..?

[janeta]

I guess that's going to be one of my problems with this season; Crane can't tell these new people that he knows about a lot of that historic stuff because he was actually *there.*  It helped that Abbie had actually seen the sheriff  get killed by a fairy tale villain with a cursed ax; when the 200+ year old guy shows up, she's better prepared to roll with it for as long as it takes to stop the beheadings.  Diana is going to be all, "what?! You expect me to believe this?" (even after the witches).

I suppose it doesn't  help that my first experience of Janina G was a panel at Dragoncon last year, where she did most of the talking (Mison wasn't feeling well); she came off pretty light and chirpy, and with an obsession with escape-the-room exercises (whatever they are). I left the panel not terribly interested in seeing her act.

[chrisvee]

My problem isn't so much the plot but that the show has no magic, no chemistry with Abbie gone. Even Jenny and Ichabod fall flat. 

[Free]

7 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

This is bad. I can't believe they gave this show another season. I don't know what it is with Diana other than no screen presence whatsoever. They must be on a tight budget and cast the least expensive actors they could find. Casting children can be risky. It didn't pay off here. Children don't belong in this show. The script was terrible tonight and so was the acting. 

It's the special child trope and more often than not, it's annoying.

7 hours ago, retrograde said:

I accept this reboot was never going to bring back the magic of S1, but it surely doesn't have to be this bad. Sleepy Hollow at its best was funny and fun and had great and interesting characters. Now the dialogue is so boring, and the characters other than Crane and Jenny just seem to be bland CSISVUNCIS tropes (eccentric geeks in the lab, tough single mom cop with a heart of gold acting as reluctant foil for oddball crime-fighting partner). Even Crane largely seems to have lost his man-out-of-time-ness that provided so much of the old humor, and is now just a guy who gives a lot of exposition with old fashioned words. 

I can't believe how bland and boring the show became, this was the show that gave us the Headless Horseman with a machine gun, it used to be fun and crazy.

[CooperTV]

16 minutes ago, Free said:

this was the show that gave us the Headless Horseman with a machine gun, it used to be fun and crazy.

In retrospect, Sleepy Hollow was only really good in its pilot episode. It became bad to mediocre around episode 3 of season 1.

[Primetimer]

A sororal guardian coven brings Crane closer to revealing his true nature, and a certain cranially challenged character makes his presence felt.

View the full article

[FormerMod-a1]

I can't believe I like this, more than expected.  Two episodes in a row now.  Of course, I really though I wouldn't like at all and would just check in on the first ep to confirm.  I haven't added to my DVR yet, but am watching On Demand within 24 hours.  

[Free]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

In retrospect, Sleepy Hollow was only really good in its pilot episode. It became bad to mediocre around episode 3 of season 1.

S1 had its flaws, but it was a fairly entertaining supernatural drama.

[CooperTV]

13 minutes ago, Free said:

S1 had its flaws, but it was a fairly entertaining supernatural drama.

It was entertaining but I don't necessarily think it was better in quality than season 3, which I still enjoyed more than s1 on pure supernatural procedural level. And the badness of season 2 was just continuation of the dreadfulness of s1B.

[saber5055]

I guess all I can say is that I chose to watch reruns of Fraiser and American Ninja Warrior instead of this show. That, plus little kids that are the focus of all the adults in the room annoy me to no end. I love me some Tom Mison so I hope he gets a better vehicle soon.

[Free]

1 hour ago, CooperTV said:

It was entertaining but I don't necessarily think it was better in quality than season 3, which I still enjoyed more than s1 on pure supernatural procedural level. And the badness of season 2 was just continuation of the dreadfulness of s1B.

S2 was a complete trainwreck, S3 was more of a mixed bag before it fell completely apart at the end, and this season is just by the numbers and bland: quirky new team, basically a rehash of S1 in DC, special kid trope, etc.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

I guess all I can say is that I chose to watch reruns of Fraiser and American Ninja Warrior instead of this show. That, plus little kids that are the focus of all the adults in the room annoy me to no end. I love me some Tom Mison so I hope he gets a better vehicle soon.

This. This. This.  

[catrox14]

I was happy that Ichabod was still attached to Abbie but it also left me saying fuck you at the same time. 

Can we just send Ichabod over to Supernatural and be done with it? Then I can look at Tom Mison and not feel guilty about it? I mean seriously I would love to see what the Winchesters make of him. 

Sigh. The spark is gone from Ichabod now too. :(.

[Enigma X]

I actually posted in another thread that this episode was too WB for me. I adore Tom Mison and want him to find a show on one of the alternative networks. I have personally been digging many of those shows lately, and the writing never disappoints.

[Watermelon]

13 hours ago, janeta said:

I guess that's going to be one of my problems with this season; Crane can't tell these new people that he knows about a lot of that historic stuff because he was actually *there.*  It helped that Abbie had actually seen the sheriff  get killed by a fairy tale villain with a cursed ax; when the 200+ year old guy shows up, she's better prepared to roll with it for as long as it takes to stop the beheadings.  Diana is going to be all, "what?! You expect me to believe this?" (even after the witches).

I suppose it doesn't  help that my first experience of Janina G was a panel at Dragoncon last year, where she did most of the talking (Mison wasn't feeling well); she came off pretty light and chirpy, and with an obsession with escape-the-room exercises (whatever they are). I left the panel not terribly interested in seeing her act.

Escape the room exercises are an hour long version of this show, tbh. Clues leading to other clues leading to the big prize(opening the door). 

I had heard Janina was a fan of this show, but I assumed it was PR speak. Loving escape rooms kinda has me believing she really was a fan. 

[Frozendiva]

Alex will figure out who Ichabod is - and not some Revolutionary Dr. Who.

Molly being the new Witness or lead to the Witness is a little uncomfortable in that she is just a little kid. The focus should not be on her - she needs to be a kid and have some fun. And no, you simply do not walk up to someone and tell them your 'supernatural' story without finding a good time. People to tend to put you in a box when they don't understand things - especially on the spiritual side.

Odd that the witches in the bars never really showed up as old on the security cams - unless they weren't used.

Ichabod mentioning that he was married to a witch didn't have the effect that it should have.  A literal witch. I'm missing the good lines and wit of the previous seasons. Noticed that one of my favourite writers - Damian Kindler - is no longer listed as part of the show.

The creepy villain is still a victim of strange lighting,

So, a familiar villain returns to Washington next week. With all the CCTV, and people with phones and access to social media, how is anyone going to explain this? Some Hollywood film shooting?

[Watermelon]

22 minutes ago, Frozendiva said:

Alex will figure out who Ichabod is - and not some Revolutionary Dr. Who.

Molly being the new Witness or lead to the Witness is a little uncomfortable in that she is just a little kid. The focus should not be on her - she needs to be a kid and have some fun. And no, you simply do not walk up to someone and tell them your 'supernatural' story without finding a good time. People to tend to put you in a box when they don't understand things - especially on the spiritual side.

Odd that the witches in the bars never really showed up as old on the security cams - unless they weren't used.

Ichabod mentioning that he was married to a witch didn't have the effect that it should have.  A literal witch. I'm missing the good lines and wit of the previous seasons. Noticed that one of my favourite writers - Damian Kindler - is no longer listed as part of the show.

The creepy villain is still a victim of strange lighting,

So, a familiar villain returns to Washington next week. With all the CCTV, and people with phones and access to social media, how is anyone going to explain this? Some Hollywood film shooting?

Halloween maybe? The premiere was set in August. 

[bros402]

3 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

Alex will figure out who Ichabod is - and not some Revolutionary Dr. Who.

Molly being the new Witness or lead to the Witness is a little uncomfortable in that she is just a little kid. The focus should not be on her - she needs to be a kid and have some fun. And no, you simply do not walk up to someone and tell them your 'supernatural' story without finding a good time. People to tend to put you in a box when they don't understand things - especially on the spiritual side.

Odd that the witches in the bars never really showed up as old on the security cams - unless they weren't used.

Ichabod mentioning that he was married to a witch didn't have the effect that it should have.  A literal witch. I'm missing the good lines and wit of the previous seasons. Noticed that one of my favourite writers - Damian Kindler - is no longer listed as part of the show.

The creepy villain is still a victim of strange lighting,

So, a familiar villain returns to Washington next week. With all the CCTV, and people with phones and access to social media, how is anyone going to explain this? Some Hollywood film shooting?

I thought they showed up as old on the bar security footage.

[thuganomics85]

At least Molly is already talking.  I still find this entire idea; Molly/a child as the new Witness; to be the weakest part yet, but the only thing that would have made it worse would be making her a mute, precious one too, so thank goodness for small favors.

Again, it wasn't horrible at least, but it still feels like the show needs to show something to make it worthy of staying around post-Abbie.  I found it pretty telling that the best moments were easily the scenes involving Ichabod and Jenny, and none of the new characters.  I still love Janina Gavanker and Diana has potential; as do Jake and Alex; but I'm finding them dull now.  To be fair, it is only two episodes of this "reboot", but even then, they were able to do that with Ichabod and Abbie way back in season one (hell, I found Undead Andy compelling by his second episode), so I know they're capable of it, but they are making it work right now.

I felt bad, but as soon as I saw three witches, I figured one would die early and I automatically pegged the slightly more normal looking one (compared to the other, more modelish two), and sure enough, it was her.

Sorry, Jeremy Davis, but I think I'm already over Dreyfuss and his silly tics and overacting.

But, hey: Headless is back!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I used to find this show so funny and entertaining but now it's a basic mystery/procedural of the week show. I still love Crane and Jenny but it feels like they've been plopped into another show that isn't as interesting or engaging. I honestly don't know how to fix it but I hope they figure out a way because most of the new core cast aren't great actors and the mysteries they have solved this week and last week were not very interesting to me. Hopefully the return of Headless will improve matters next week!

I kept trying to figure out if one of the witch sisters was the new girl in the artifacts library. Diana is not going to be long for this world is she keeps investigating supernatural crimes by touching artifacts that she knows nothing about.

Edited January 15, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[alias1]

How did Ichabod get to be so boring?  Jenny is the only draw for me now.  I don't like any of the new people and I'm not a fan of the kid, even less being a witness.  Even the villain is boring.  And there's something fundamentally wrong with a show called Sleepy Hollow set in DC. 

[Free]

3 hours ago, SierraMist said:

How did Ichabod get to be so boring?  Jenny is the only draw for me now.  I don't like any of the new people and I'm not a fan of the kid, even less being a witness.  Even the villain is boring.  And there's something fundamentally wrong with a show called Sleepy Hollow set in DC. 

It's the drawback of yet another reboot of this series, it dilutes the original draw and it doesn't help that they radically changed it so much to the point of getting Sleepy Hollow the town itself.

[Yolapukka]

I forgot to watch. I'll try next week. Maybe if it's ok I'll take the time to watch the earlier episodes.

So the daughter really is the witness/magical unicorn precocious messiah-child? I don't understand why they have tied themselves to a concept that could prove disastrous. Well, except that tendency seems to be the history of this show so I guess it makes perfect sense. I don't have a knee-jerk opposition to younger characters, I often like them even when they seem to be largely loathed (ohai Dawn! say hello to Wesley!) but it just seems like a pointless risk, not to mention potentially boring, to suddenly hang your established show's central conceit on the narrow shoulders of an unproven child.

Edited January 16, 2017 by yuggapukka

[Mrs OldManBalls]

On 2017-01-15 at 3:53 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Sorry, Jeremy Davis, but I think I'm already over Dreyfuss and his silly tics and overacting.

I'm not even a little sorry. Shit's ridiculous. 

[Free]

8 hours ago, yuggapukka said:

I forgot to watch. I'll try next week. Maybe if it's ok I'll take the time to watch the earlier episodes.

So the daughter really is the witness/magical unicorn precocious messiah-child? I don't understand why they have tied themselves to a concept that could prove disastrous. Well, except that tendency seems to be the history of this show so I guess it makes perfect sense. I don't have a knee-jerk opposition to younger characters, I often like them even when they seem to be largely loathed (ohai Dawn! say hello to Wesley!) but it just seems like a pointless risk, not to mention potentially boring, to suddenly hang your established show's central conceit on the narrow shoulders of an unproven child.

Yup, we even got the obligatory sympathy moments to go along with the special child cliché.

[MaggieG]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 8:22 AM, janeta said:

I suppose it doesn't  help that my first experience of Janina G was a panel at Dragoncon last year, where she did most of the talking (Mison wasn't feeling well); she came off pretty light and chirpy, and with an obsession with escape-the-room exercises (whatever they are). I left the panel not terribly interested in seeing her act.

I was at the same panel! I felt the same way, she seemed a little too chirpy.

I didn't hate this episode. I don't really mind the reboot too much, though I do miss Abby. Crane and Jenny still entertain me. I don't really like Alex, but I do like Jake. My only take on this episode was that the actresses playing the witches were awful. The one with the crimped hair reminded me of Hailee Steinfeld.

[CooperTV]

41 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

I don't really like Alex, but I do like Jake.

I predict some daddy issues for Alex and her eventually coming around on Ichabod being time traveler and stuff.

[jhlipton]

On 1/15/2017 at 3:53 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I felt bad, but as soon as I saw three witches, I figured one would die early and I automatically pegged the slightly more normal looking one (compared to the other, more modelish two), and sure enough, it was her.

Good to know that they're keeping with their white, male privilege still.  I didn't need another reason to start watching -- the reviews sound horrid, and I'm standing with Nicole -- but it's nice to have another one.

[Dobian]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 3:02 AM, TDT said:

Since the girl who plays Molly is a former Masterchef Junior contestant,and that show is premiering soon,might we be expecting a crossover/promotion-type deal at some point..?

Yeah, have Tom Misner come on in costume to teach the kids how to make Yorkshire pudding.

It's funny, I didn't even recognize her from the cropped hair.  She was the cutest one on Masterchef Jr.  So now she's an actress?  Well the show has already messed her hair up, let's see what else they can ruin.

The whole god child thing gets dredged up every so often over the years and shows never learn.  It ruined Grimm, which is still an ongoing train wreck.  They did a show with a super psychic powerful kid being pursued by secret evil government agents a few years ago (forget the title) that tanked after about six episodes.  Then that other one around the same time with Kiefer Sutherland as the dad.  They ruined the original "V" in the 80s by sticking a god child in it.  Do writers think it's a really great idea but people just haven't done it right, or do they bother to look back over the wreckage of tv history to realize that it's just a horribly bad concept?

4 minutes ago, Dobian said:

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Dobian

[CooperTV]

49 minutes ago, Dobian said:

The whole god child thing gets dredged up every so often over the years and shows never learn. 

I'm not seeing major issues with that so far. There's zero perks of being Magical Child on Sleepy Hollow, as we all know from the Mills sisters' childhood and family history, what with Moloch revealing  himself to them in the woods, and Jenny stuck in a mental facility for years, plus before than Moloch and co drove their mother to attempting murder/infanticide/suicide. Not to mention the crazytown that was Ichabod's childhood. Now they have unique ability to actually try and prevent unnamed evil from destroying the next Witness.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

I'm not seeing major issues with that so far. There's zero perks of being Magical Child on Sleepy Hollow, as we all know from the Mills sisters' childhood and family history, what with Moloch revealing  himself to them in the woods, and Jenny stuck in a mental facility for years, plus before than Moloch and co drove their mother to attempting murder/infanticide/suicide. Not to mention the crazytown that was Ichabod's childhood. Now they have unique ability to actually try and prevent unnamed evil from destroying the next Witness.

I think it's different now because we already had that experience and it was stressed time and time again that there were ONLY TWO witnesses and they were Abbie and Ichabod. There was no soul transference until they needed to kill off Abbie but keep a witness to justify Ichabod's mission and half-ass salvage the most basic premise of the show.

The problem is that theoretically the soul should be Abbie and so whomever she goes into should really BE Abbie and that is not fixed by putting her soul into a child. The only logical next step in the Witnesses are soul transferable is for Ichabod to die and his soul jumps to another person. Unless I've misunderstood what was said in s3 finale.

Edited January 17, 2017 by catrox14

[Sparkling Beth]

Quote

And there's something fundamentally wrong with a show called Sleepy Hollow set in DC. 

I look at it this way:  You can take the boy out of Sleepy Hollow, but you can't take Sleepy Hollow out of the boy.  At this point it's a metaphor more than an actual location.

[CooperTV]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The problem is that theoretically the soul should be Abbie and so whomever she goes into should really BE Abbie and that is not fixed by putting her soul into a child.

The treatment of Abbie in season 3 finale was insulting as hell, with all that "Our job was to carry you forward". But it was never implied Eternal Soul = Abbie as a person. Eternal Souls are entities that are reincarnate in new bodies, and they always should go together, even if persons that contain them are dead, as I understand from the script.
 

Quote

 

"We are Eternal Souls, Crane."

"What does that mean?"

"Well, I don't really know myself, but I couldn't go into the light. There was an old friend there, who came to tell me that my job is done."

"And this place where are we?"

"It's a waiting room between life and death. I am being called."

"No, Abbie, we began this journey together, we will end it together."

"My journey isn't over. And for a Witness, it never truly is. But Abbie Mills has done what she's supposed to do."

 

So Eternal Soul + an unique new person = Trill/human symbiont from Star Trek Deep Space Nine, it seems.

[catrox14]

from the Ragnarok finale transcript

Quote

We don't have much time, Crane. Abigail's death has set wheels in motion, and you need all the information I can give you. There must always be two Witnesses. When one dies, their soul does not move on. It's eternal.

Wait, wait.

Abbie told me this. It wasn't a dream.

Mr. Mills, if there's a chance she lives...

No, no, it doesn't work like that. Not as I understand it. The essence of a Witness's soul finds someone from their extended bloodline and sparks a new Witness.

So Abbie's Eternal Soul lives on... in someone else.

Find her before they do. They'll come for you, Crane. And they'll be looking for her, too. Who?

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=153&t=26509

Seems to me , if  it's Abbie's essence then it is her eternal soul.  To me, the question IMO, is how much does the soul influence the new vessel. How does the "soul spark" work? ( All I can think of is the "ALL SPARK" from the Transformers film lol)Abbie's essence should still be influencing the new Witness what does Soul essence really mean?

The Trill were there own life forms that co-habitate. They take on the previous hosts traits and they remember the previous host IIRC. So if that is the analogy then some Abbie's traits would be seen in the new vessel, it seems to me.

Is Diana's daughter a part of Abbie's bloodline or not?

None of it makes any sense.

Edited January 17, 2017 by catrox14

[CooperTV]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seems to me , if  it's Abbie's essence then it is her eternal soul.

Abbie (and Ichabod, and Molly, for that matter) was a vessel to Eternal Soul. Eternal Soul is clearly something that existed before Abbie Mills was born. So maybe the previous Witness lived without being "activated" for lack of better word, since the other Eternal Soul was inhabiting Ichabod who time-traveled in the present via magic sleep.

Molly is not Abbie the same way Ichabod is not that dude from the Ancient Tablet Thingy. But they had Eternal Souls in common.

[Dobian]

7 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I'm not seeing major issues with that so far. There's zero perks of being Magical Child on Sleepy Hollow, as we all know from the Mills sisters' childhood and family history, what with Moloch revealing  himself to them in the woods, and Jenny stuck in a mental facility for years, plus before than Moloch and co drove their mother to attempting murder/infanticide/suicide. Not to mention the crazytown that was Ichabod's childhood. Now they have unique ability to actually try and prevent unnamed evil from destroying the next Witness.

The problem with the god child trope is more in the general sense that the character becomes this deus ex machina, the magic cure-all that bails the writers out of every situation where they have written themselves into a corner.  The second problem is that the god child becomes a major character, but very few child actors have the chops to play such a weighty role.  So the god child character winds up being completely uninteresting and cliche, and doesn't do much of anything except when they are wiggling their nose like Tabitha.  Witness Grimm.

[Free]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

The problem with the god child trope is more in the general sense that the character becomes this deus ex machina, the magic cure-all that bails the writers out of every situation where they have written themselves into a corner.  The second problem is that the god child becomes a major character, but very few child actors have the chops to play such a weighty role.  So the god child character winds up being completely uninteresting and cliche, and doesn't do much of anything except when they are wiggling their nose like Tabitha.  Witness Grimm.

Exactly, it becomes an annoying convenient walking plot device that does whatever the writers needs to be instead of being their own natural character.

[SnarkyTart]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 0:53 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Sorry, Jeremy Davis, but I think I'm already over Dreyfuss and his silly tics and overacting.

But, hey: Headless is back!

I'm sorry to see that Jeremy Davis is a student of the Jeffrey Dean Morgan/Negan school of acting.  I hate it.

I barely remember the early days of SH when Headless was a terrifying, seemingly mindless, supernatural monster... before he became just Ichabod's effete, cuckolded, petulant rival named Abraham.