S06.E02: Trust Me Knot

[formerlyfreedom]

Hank and Wu find a solution to stop Renard while Nick is still on the run. Adalind receives a phone call that throws her into the middle of everything. Back at the spice shop, Monroe and Rosalee's adventure in babysitting takes an interesting turn when Diana demonstrates her power. Meanwhile, Eve and Trubel work to solve the mystery of the cloth found with the healing stick.

 

[Morrigan2575]

I liked parts of this episode and other parts I found ludicrous.

I liked the scenes with Adiland/Renard, Renard/Nick/Wu/Hank, the scenes with Diana/Monroe/Rosalie etc etc.  One thing I will say is that the cast has chemistry and the actors (save BT) can act.

Things I found dumb, the whole arrest thing, cops have to get an arrest warrant signed by a judge. Other thing, I served Grand Jury duty 2 years ago, there's no judge just the DA, and Grand Jurors and the Jury Moderator. That's also the smallest grand jury ever.

On a shallow note, I really liked Trubel's hair, it flattered her.

Diana is deadly but, I don't really think she's EVOL, mostly she comes off as a creepy powerful kid who acts on emotion and doesn't really grt the whole killing bad thing. That doesn't mean I'd trust her not to betray Nick

[Darklazr]

Renard and Nick have been adversaries for YEARS!  Years, folks.  Yes.  YEARS!  WTF are these writers smoking?!

Of course, the little snowflake Diana can read the cloth.  Sheesh.

I enjoyed the entire show, except for little snowflake and Juliette is back to being on my last nerves.

[AuntieL]

God I love Bud. "He's a dick". HA. So this episode was a bit of nothing. Renard still in charge and Nick still on the run. 

[TobinAlbers]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

Diana is deadly but, I don't really think she's EVOL, mostly she comes off as a creepy powerful kid who acts on emotion and doesn't really grt the whole killing bad thing. That doesn't mean I'd trust her not to betray Nick

Even when she blabs to Renard about the cloth -and she will as she won't know it's supposed to be a secret- I don't see it as an intentional betrayal. Her visit to TeamGrimm showed she harbors no ill will towards them when she could be all up in Juliette's face for her accessory to Mama Kelly's death and delivering her to her grandpa (and Juliette looked ready to fight or flee when Diana acknowledged her) and she especially pointed out that she liked her brother. In fact Diana was pretty darn cute wanting to learn and play and be a magic super kid. She's basically only been around people who have been using her or afraid of her. In her brief time with Monrosalee she was an eager to please kid who just wanted to play and entertain. 

Honestly, I'd love to see a spinoff set 20 years down the line with Diana and Kelly as a dynamic duo - a Grimm who grimms and a Hexen who is naughty but not evil. Each of them has to fight their darker Hexen tendencies and sometimes may be at odds given one is a Grimm but they're siblings who have each other's backs.

'She didn't turn me down.' I know Nadalind isn't embraced, but damn was DG's delivery and smirk on that line hilariously amazing. Mic drop in your face, Sean.

[ShadowFacts]

Yes, Bud for the win!  Adalind for the fail.  She's a hexenbiest and a lawyer, and Renard outfoxed her.  Nick is Frodo, and Diana is doing Hogwarts parlor tricks.  I think Wu saying if he goes up against Renard one of them won't make it is some foreshadowing that he won't make it.  Sniff.  Hank and Wu are pretty badass, I enjoyed them and Bud the most.   

[OtterMommy]

3 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, Bud for the win!  Adalind for the fail.  She's a hexenbiest and a lawyer, and Renard outfoxed her.  Nick is Frodo, and Diana is doing Hogwarts parlor tricks.  I think Wu saying if he goes up against Renard one of them won't make it is some foreshadowing that he won't make it.  Sniff.  Hank and Wu are pretty badass, I enjoyed them and Bud the most.   

Appropriate choice of words!

I won't get to watch this until it is up on Hulu, but "Adalind for the fail" makes me excited to see an episode for the first time since season 4.

Edited January 14, 2017 by OtterMommy

[Morrigan2575]

Except Adiland didn't fail, it was Nick's plan. 

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Except Adiland didn't fail, it was Nick's plan. 

Yes, it was Nick's plan and it fell to pieces.  I don't know why Nick, Hank, Wu and Adalind did not figure out that the Judge and DA were BC wesens!  Good, grief.  

[thuganomics85]

So, an episode where basically Renard is playing them like a fiddle the entire time, and everyone comes off looking like idiots, while he remains supreme.  Oh, Team Grimm!  Going to need to step it up there, folks!  Sounds like even Hank and Wu got shitcanned, but at least that frees them up to hang out in the Spice Shop more, now?

Trubel is now getting called back for some kind of mysterious mission.

Magic Stick clearly has a downside, as Nick is getting just a wee bit obsessive over it.  Was worried that he was going to hurt Bud or something during that last bit.  I guess whatever is written on that cloth (thanks, Diana!) will explain everything.

Poor Rosalee: everyone finds out about her pregnancy after-all.

I still can't tell if they're trying to rekindle the flames between Nick and Juliette or not.  Granted, most of that is because despite being married in real life, David Giutoli and Bitsie... err, Elizabeth Tulloch have almost no chemistry on screen.  Granted, it's not like I want Nick or Adalind either (although, Nick's "She didn't turn me down!" was a good burn, since that would piss off Renard.)

Since I can be simple at times, I did enjoy Monroe and Diana.  Silas Weir Mitchell has perfected the "WTF?!  This is creeping me out, man!" look.

Oh, Wu.  I hope you haven't doomed yourself by hinting at a showdown between you and Renard....

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

Yes, it was Nick's plan and it fell to pieces.  I don't know why Nick, Hank, Wu and Adalind did not figure out that the Judge and DA were BC wesens!  Good, grief.  

The whole rushed to Grand Jury should have been a clue but, I'm not.sure how any of them.could have known before making the deal.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Prevailing Wind]

You know what kind of compelling TV this was? I did two crossword puzzles during the show.  I kept it on for Bud's sake.

[Straycat80]

The whole episode seemed rushed to me. I hope we find out about the magic stick soon, to me it's very Frodo and The Ring of power (my precious) from The Lord Of The Rings. 

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The whole rushed to Grand Jury should have been a clue but, I'm not.sure how any of them.could have known before making the deal.

Team Grimm should be suspicious of anyone connected to Renard, especially since the Grand Jury was called so quickly.

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

The whole episode seemed rushed to me. I hope we find out about the magic stick soon, to me it's very Frodo and The Ring of power (my precious) from The Lord Of The Rings. 

I have always hated how the lead of the show is written so dumb at time.  Why didn't Nick open up the door to the tunnels after he first moved in and checked things out?  Why wait and leave it up to Monroe and Rosalie, who by the way only checked out a small area?  Nick has the stick and yet he can not read what is on the cloth?  We have to have the little uber special snowflake and Juliette no longer Eve in the loop?  

Why IS Renard all of a sudden the big evil?!

[OtterMommy]

47 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

Poor Rosalee: everyone finds out about her pregnancy after-all.

I still can't tell if they're trying to rekindle the flames between Nick and Juliette or not.  Granted, most of that is because despite being married in real life, David Giutoli and Bitsie... err, Elizabeth Tulloch have almost no chemistry on screen.  Granted, it's not like I want Nick or Adalind either (although, Nick's "She didn't turn me down!" was a good burn, since that would piss off Renard.)

 

As I said, I can't watch this until tomorrow, thanks to the show being preempted for the Blazer game, but I did see the sneak peak with the scene where Monroe blurts out that Rosalee is pregnant and I *hated* it.  The whole scene was:

"Run Nick! Hurry!"

"We're running out of time, run!"

"Rosalee's pregnant!"

"Hey, that's great...let's just stop and talk about it *right now* and ignore the SERT team about to come and shoot me."

Ugh!  What were the writers and directors thinking?  Not only is it just plain stupid, but they caused all the momentum to just....stop, which is really NOT what you want in an action-packed scene.

As for Nick and Juliette/Eve...personally, I always thought they had great, but thwarted-by-bad-direction chemistry (in other words, when they were allowed to be together, the chemistry was there.  Unfortunately, it was very common--when it was actually Juliette--for the two of them to be across the room from each other or separated in some way.  It was very strange.).  I know I'm in the minority about that, but whatever.  My guess--and I'll admit it, my hope--is that they are.  However, the only reason why I'm for that is because the end of Nadalind has got to come, and quick.  It is against the rules of TV for Nick to go it alone, so I'm on #TeamJuliette for that reason alone.  The whole Eve thing is just...dumb...and I don't know how they are going to write their way out of it.

[neuromom]

I don't know about Lord of the Rings, but that stick appeared to be a Horcrux. How original. Sigh.

The treatment they give the Portland Pd still annoys me. I was yelling total obscenities when I thought they wiped out the entire SERT entry team. And then, "shots fired", and the rest of the team turned tail and ran, without sending in a backup team , or even keeping the place under observation. Piss poor tactics. And I know the REAL Portland PD can do better. 

I enjoyed the Diana /Monroe scenes. 

Oh, and as I'm still watching the last 15 mins of this show, and they are bringing out the "blood oath". Another callback to Harry Potter . Can the writers think of anything original?

I don't know about Lord of the Rings, but that stick appeared to be a Horcrux. How original. Sigh.

The treatment they give the Portland Pd still annoys me. I was yelling total obscenities when I thought they wiped out the entire SERT entry team. And then, "shots fired", and the rest of the team turned tail and ran, without sending in a backup team , or even keeping the place under observation. Piss poor tactics. And I know the REAL Portland PD can do better. 

I enjoyed the Diana /Monroe scenes. 

Oh, and as I'm still watching the last 15 mins of this show, and they are bringing out the "blood oath". Another callback to Harry Potter . Come to think of it, that cloth is like the Marauders Map on Harry Potter. 

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, Darklazr said:

I have always hated how the lead of the show is written so dumb at time.  Why didn't Nick open up the door to the tunnels after he first moved in and checked things out?  Why wait and leave it up to Monroe and Rosalie, who by the way only checked out a small area?  Nick has the stick and yet he can not read what is on the cloth?  We have to have the little uber special snowflake and Juliette no longer Eve in the loop?  

Why IS Renard all of a sudden the big evil?!

Monroe and Nick actually had a professor run a bunch of tests on the cloth last season in The Believer. So this is the one time where they haven't written Nick as an idiot.

It's amazing to find out 6 seasons in that the writers have no idea how the police and the criminal justice system works. Does it even make any sense that they would rush to a nongrand jury because the future mayor and currently high ranking police officer is implicated in the murder of his campaign manager.

I don't think anyone knows why Renard has decided to go full bore evil.

[icewolf]

After watching the episode, I want my 60 minutes back.

NOTHING happened.

At least Bud didn't die, I hope that was it for him and he has his happy ending.

[Frozendiva]

I admit to checking my Twitter account a few times during the ep.

Diana's PK with the spice jars was cute. Wish I could do that! I don't think she's evil, yet. Just having some fun and being misunderstood because she is 'different'. She seems to be helpful - at least in terms of being able to see what's on the magic cloth. The stick probably feeds off Nick in some fashion and most likely has some addictive powers.

Surprised none of Portland's homeless haven't found the secret tunnels.

Adalind, you were conned by a more master manipulator than you. Of course, we may find out that Renard is playing some long con.

[Eliza422]

It's funny we all thought the same! When nick started jonesing I thought great, now the stick is the one ring.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Eliza422

[LittleIggy]

Yeah, I thought the "One Ring" when Nick got all obsessive over the stick. 

Kelly is one adorable baby!

I hate having to hate Renard now. Yeah, the "grand jury" was ridiculous since judges aren't part of the process.

[GaT]

I watched The Vampire Diaries right before this. A night of total crap TV for me.

The only thing I liked, Monroe "Rosalee's pregnant!" Bud: "Right now?"

Also, how exactly did Rosalee "check out" the magical symbols on the computer?

Edited January 14, 2017 by GaT

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, GaT said:

I watched The Vampire Diaries right before this. A night of total crap TV for me.

The only thing I liked, Monroe "Rosalee's pregnant!" Bud: "Right now?"

Also, how exactly did Rosalee "check out" the magical symbols on the computer?

Ultimately this has been one of my biggest complaints about the show. It is so lazily and stupidly plotted. They only needed one line to explain how. "I'll scan it and do an image search."

I don't even know what to say about Renard. The show seems to be portraying him as Black Claw die hard. That's just not him. He's basically stayed out of wesen matters and politics for the entire show. He's been fixated on Royal and Resistance matters up until last season. He seemed to only ally with Black Claw because they had Diana, they arranged for his ascendancy, and they destroyed the two institutions that he cared about. I don't really understand how Renard got to this place where he's now a fanatic. I don't understand what docile type wesen get out of living openly or Black Claw. The entire ethos of Black Claw is poorly thought out and juvenile.

Except for the historical antipathies between Grimms and wesen, nothing about Nick suggests that he'd be adverse to wesen living openly. He's basically let them live as a state within a state as long as it doesn't result in bodies.

[ShadowFacts]

9 hours ago, Darklazr said:

Yes, it was Nick's plan and it fell to pieces.  I don't know why Nick, Hank, Wu and Adalind did not figure out that the Judge and DA were BC wesens!  Good, grief.  

Well, Adalind could have worded her knot spell a little more judiciously.  And speaking of judgment, besides the judge even being present, why was it a federal grand jury?  Rachel was not a federal agent, right?  Only a black claw campaign operative.  And why isn't the press all over the mayor-elect's arrest?  Yeah, I know, this show never has inquiring reporters. 

Trubel being summoned for a gathering of Grimms -- how many are there nowadays?  I bet they all come to Nick's aid in the finale.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I knew the magic wand was going to turn into my preeeeeeeecious last week when Juliette kept hounding Nick about it. While I kind of get what she said this week about how maybe he shouldn't be carrying it around, why was the solution for him to stick it in a random box in the tunnel? Are they really going to remember exactly where in the labyrinth of tunnels he left it?

One moment I liked was all the women (Rosalee, Adalind, Trubel, and Juliette) working together on the cloth. Even though I'm not a huge fan of all of their characters individually, this may have been the first time in the entire series where we had four women working together peacefully. Usually at least one of the male leads (Nick, Hank, Monroe, and Renard) are in the scenes, so it was cool to have the four female characters all present with a common goal (as opposed to past female scenes where they were fighting each other).

I liked the idea of the trust me knot, and I was kind of disappointed that it came to nothing. Of course, realistically I knew that they wouldn't kill off Nick or Renard (at least not until the series finale) but I thought at least we would get to see them grudgingly help each other like the olden days.

Normally I'm not a fan of the "guy is awkward around kids" storyline, but in this instance we can see that Monroe is uncomfortable around Diana, not because she's a kid, but because she's a powerful wesen who is floating glass jars around the shop.

[bluvelvet]

I enjoyed the episode. Especially liked the scene with Monroe and Diana in spice shop. SWM does have good comedic faces. Also really liked everyone working in deciphering the cloth peacefully, no tensions etc. 

Trubel asking Nick to come with her made no sense, he isn't leaving Kelly. 

I liked the trust me knot even though it was an epic fail.  Or I should say I liked Adalind being more involved using her Hexen knowledge.

All I need now is for Nick to call the stick "my precious".  Also when that Sert officer had it all they had to say was "it's a stick".  

[Darklazr]

13 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Monroe and Nick actually had a professor run a bunch of tests on the cloth last season in The Believer. So this is the one time where they haven't written Nick as an idiot.

It's amazing to find out 6 seasons in that the writers have no idea how the police and the criminal justice system works. Does it even make any sense that they would rush to a nongrand jury because the future mayor and currently high ranking police officer is implicated in the murder of his campaign manager.

I don't think anyone knows why Renard has decided to go full bore evil.

I should have added that Nick has since died a few times during the loft shoot out and the stick seems really fond of him!  So, why isn't Nick able to read the writing on the cloth?  

[ottilie]

Renard isn't phased by being haunted by Meisner yet. Maybe they will have a chance to explain Meisner's backstory to a greater extent.

  I mostly liked the episode.  The nonmagical residents of town never catch on

Edited January 14, 2017 by ottilie

[kili]

Quote

While I kind of get what she said this week about how maybe he shouldn't be carrying it around, why was the solution for him to stick it in a random box in the tunnel? Are they really going to remember exactly where in the labyrinth of tunnels he left it?

I don't think that it is a random box. It is the box the stick was stored in since the crusades that Nick and Monroe found in Germany. Nick will remember where it is because he has been hiding the box in the tunnels for a while now (he quickly found it when he needed to save Juliette).

I was afraid that Nick was going to get strangled by that knot when Adalind did not testify for Renard in front of the grand jury. I was worried that the knot was a stickler for legalize. I guess it is reasonable.

[iMonrey]

This episode basically went in a circle and reset itself. We were left in the exact same spot as we were at the end of the first episode - Nick a fugitive and Renard after him with the police force behind him. Talk about "filler."

Yeah, Monroe's reaction to Diana was pretty funny but I really don't care for Diana, as a character. The show just doesn't need her. They've never explained why she was rapidly aged (and then, seemingly, resumed a normal aging process) and she's serving as a deux ex machina a little too often.

Quote

Also, how exactly did Rosalee "check out" the magical symbols on the computer?

That cracked me up too - "OK I'll Google "ancient runes" and pore through them in 30 seconds.

[OtterMommy]

So, let me  get this straight. This show has 13--no, 12 now--episodes to have a big show down, <snip....read about it in the spoilers thread>, and wrap up dozens of unfinished story lines and plot holes....and they put out an episode that does absolutely nothing except get rid of one character (temporarily) who never really should have been on the show in the first place? What kind of effing moron show runners and writers pull crap like that?

I mean, we are exactly in the same place we were at the end of the last episode.  This ep did absolutely nothing to push the plot forward in any way whatsoever.  And it wasn't even, in my opinion, that entertaining.  I think I've crossed the line into full-on hate watching this show.  If I didn't like the cast, there is no way I would waste my time with this.  Seriously.  I can't think of any show that is worse in this regard (and I've been known to watch some pretty bad TV in my time.)

Okay, so what I liked...I liked Bud.  I'm pretty sure that he'll never be mentioned again after this episode, so I kind of felt like I had to savor him.  And, I can't really say that this is specific to this episode, but I am looking forward to the spectral/psychological/whatever crap that is Meisner. I know that I'm probably the only person with this view, but I'm okay with that--I liked Eve in this episode, if only because she was the only person (well, I guess except for Bud) who had the balls to even try to get between Nick and his stick (heh heh heh!).

Oh and here's something that, well, I didn't like...but the experience of watching it was worth probably everything else.  I'd already been on this board, so I knew about Nick going all Frodo.  But, as I watched the bit where the stick blasts everyone and Nick picks it up with some sort of demented smirk, OtterDaddy walked into the room (he has not seen an episode since he declared "this is not the show I signed up for" when Adalind's hair told Henrietta she was pregnant) saw what was going on, and said "You know, if you want to watch Lord of the Rings, I have all the DVD's upstairs."  Yeah, it was that obvious.  But, hey, at least it added one more source for the show runners to mine, after Harry Potter and The Almighty Johnsons.

I'll admit that I threw up in a bit in my mouth when Nick told Adalind to meet her where she first told him she loved him.  Even if that were a love story for the ages instead a sick and twisted rapemance that DG calls a product of Stockholm Syndrome, that would still be a horrible line that no self-respecting writer should write (and no self-respecting editor should leave in).

Yep, still can't stand the actress who plays Diana.  Oh, and I still can't stand Diana--but I did think that SWM owned all those scenes.

I did realize something....if there was a show, with different show runners (of course) starring Sasha Roiz as a very gray Mayor or Police Captain (take your pick) named Sean Renard--and no other characters from this show, except Bud and maybe Franco, I would watch the hell out of that show. Seriously, that would be simply excellent.  I don't mean that in a way that SR is so much better than anyone else on this show--I love the entire cast and I actually feel sorry for them watching this crap--but SR totally owned his role and it showed how great his character would have been with people or persons more competent than K/G/C.

ETA: What the hell was the point of the whole Trust Me Knot (dumbass name, by the way) anyway?  They made this big huge deal about it and then, oh--never mind!  There were no consequences for anyone.  Ugh! Okay, ranting over...

Edited January 14, 2017 by OtterMommy

[neuromom]

35 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

 

I did realize something....if there was a show, with different show runners (of course) starring Sasha Roiz as a very gray Mayor or Police Captain (take your pick) named Sean Renard--and no other characters from this show, except Bud and maybe Franco, I would watch the hell out of that show. Seriously, that would be simply excellent.  I don't mean that in a way that SR is so much better than anyone else on this show--I love the entire cast and I actually feel sorry for them watching this crap--but SR totally owned his role and it showed how great his character would have been with people or persons more competent than K/G/C.

ETA: What the hell was the point of the whole Trust Me Knot (dumbass name, by the way) anyway?  They made this big huge deal about it and then, oh--never mind!  There were no consequences for anyone.  Ugh! Okay, ranting over...

I've always wished for more Franco since the beginning. He looks and acts like many typical officer friends of mine.  I lov d when he said "now what? (Or was it "what now?) Anyway, I wanted to say - go arrest the show runners Franco- throw them in jail. They have committed many crimes against their audience. 

I just thought the knot was just some stunt the show runners or writers pulled to say "hey, look at us, we can still so cleverly 'borrow' ideas from other sources" . ...when really, they have screwed up so fantastically with the sources they started with - the fairy tales. 

Also, NO ONE in the scoops gang even anticipated that Renard may have supporters - especially Wesen ones - within the department.? And....Portland Pd doesn't have surveillance camera in the "holding cell" (jail) area? My department does. 

[tennisgurl]

Well, at least this episode gave me some time to check my Facebook, like some Instagram photos, check my email...it was a boring episode is what I`m saying. My God did nothing happen. How is this the last season, thats supposed to be wrapping things up? Nothing happened! Hank and Wu got fired, and thats about it. Riveting stuff, let me tell you. 

You could just call this episode "Nick and the Deathly Hallows" because that stick might as well just BE the Elder Wand from HP, by way of the Ring from LotR. Where is this going? Why is this happening so late in the game? Why should I care? And can they really not think of their own plot points? 

So, why the hell is Renard so evil all of the sudden now? Why is he suddenly so committed to Dark Claw? Just because they got him elected? That does not make any sense considering how much we know of Renard. I have always loved Renard as a morally grey character with shifting loyalties, but who is basically an alright guy who does bad things for reasons he thinks are right, not some asshole who screws everyone over for some random other group of assholes...or something. I truly have no clue what his motivations are now, and why he became the shows Big Bad. He spent so long as a complex character, and now I expect to see him starting the next episode putting on a big black hat, twirling a twirly black mustache, and tying Adalind  to a railroad track. 

And speaking of Dark Claw, can I just say that Dark Claw is a really stupid name for an Evil Wessen Group? Maybe it would work for a human group of bad guys, but for a Wessen group, its just so on the nose. Its more like the name a bunch of suburban teenagers would name their garage band than some kind of super evil organization of evil. \

There were a few nice moments. I laughed at the scene between Adalind and Renard at the police station. "You want me to say you have an alibi because while you were supposedly killing one person, you were actually killing another person who was also you alibi? Yeah, why is that an issue?". And I actually liked Diana this episode. I still dont think the actress is very good, but I think they finally found a balance between creepy and innocent kid who just happens to have amazing powers. Still dont really get her purpose though. And at least Adalind got something to do this weekend other than cry, kiss Nick, and hug children, even if it did turn out to be totally pointless. But now that she is going back to EVIL Renard, I guess she can be the damsel again. Goody.  

Edited January 14, 2017 by tennisgurl

[OtterMommy]

5 minutes ago, neuromom said:

Also, NO ONE in the scoops gang even anticipated that Renard may have supporters - especially Wesen ones - within the department.? And....Portland Pd doesn't have surveillance camera in the "holding cell" (jail) area? My department does. 

Oh, there is so much wrong there.  We (and Nick) know that there are Wesen in the PD.  Remember the Wesenrein?  So, yeah, the idea that Renard might just have some supporters (since, as far as we know, he was well-liked and considered capable by his underlings) is not unreasonable.  Also, maybe I'm over thinking things, but I was a little surprised that there was cell service in the jail.  But, even so--yeah--there should be surveillance cameras in every corner.

I'm starting to understand what David Giuntoli meant when he said that this was a "death-with-dignity, hospice ending."  Yeesh!

[NorthstarATL]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I'll admit that I threw up in a bit in my mouth when Nick told Adalind to meet her where she first told him she loved him.  Even if that were a love story for the ages instead a sick and twisted rapemance that DG calls a product of Stockholm Syndrome, that would still be a horrible line that no self-respecting writer should write (and no self-respecting editor should leave in).

"No. Seriously, where should I meet you?" would have been my reaction. Usually when a character says something like that it's a woman, and it is a test.

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

ETA: What the hell was the point of the whole Trust Me Knot (dumbass name, by the way) anyway?  They made this big huge deal about it and then, oh--never mind!  There were no consequences for anyone.  U

What bothered me was that it was a pact made between two people where the behavior being agreed upon was to carried out by a third person. What if Adalind had been hit by a bus on the way to testify?

[Darklazr]

We have 11 more episodes to go!  Yipeee!

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, NorthstarATL said:

"No. Seriously, where should I meet you?" would have been my reaction. Usually when a character says something like that it's a woman, and it is a test.

Bwahaha!  That is it exactly....no one, fictional or otherwise, says that crap unless they are a) stoned, drunk, or under some other sort of influence or b) trying to ensnare someone.  Adalind probably would have earned some points with me if she had given your response.

1 hour ago, NorthstarATL said:

 

What bothered me was that it was a pact made between two people where the behavior being agreed upon was to carried out by a third person. What if Adalind had been hit by a bus on the way to testify?

Wait, Adalind getting hit by a bus was a possibility?  They so should have done that.  I'm only half joking with that--I totally agree with you.  It was completely pointless to have this device and then do....nothing...with it.  But, as you said, there is a huge problem with it in that it all depends on a 3rd person.  The thing is...having something happen to Adalind so that she is unable to testify (being hit by a bus is good.  Struck by lightning, falling down a hole....the possibilities are endless) would have actually created something that would have pushed the plot forward. 

But, no......

[neuromom]

10 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

Bwahaha!  That is it exactly....no one, fictional or otherwise, says that crap unless they are a) stoned, drunk, or under some other sort of influence or b) trying to ensnare someone.  Adalind probably would have earned some points with me if she had given your response.

Wait, Adalind getting hit by a bus was a possibility?  They so should have done that.  I'm only half joking with that--I totally agree with you.  It was completely pointless to have this device and then do....nothing...with it.  But, as you said, there is a huge problem with it in that it all depends on a 3rd person.  The thing is...having something happen to Adalind so that she is unable to testify (being hit by a bus is good.  Struck by lightning, falling down a hole....the possibilities are endless) would have actually created something that would have pushed the plot forward. 

But, no......

As we sit here, picking apart the inconsistencies and ridiculousness of the episode, it got me to wondering- shouldn't a show like this (which has had success and a lot of popularity) have a "script reader" whose sole responsibility is to edit the script and point out all the inconsistencies? I mean, I'll bet even high school theatre departments have people do that job on a script before they turn it into a play.

kinda makes the whole of Grimm showrunners and writers to be....amateurish.

[OtterMommy]

2 minutes ago, neuromom said:

 

kinda makes the whole of Grimm showrunners and writers to be....amateurish.

You are very polite. 

Yeah, I don't get it.  Kouf and Greenwalt had success with other shows (although I never watched their other shows, so I don't know if it was more of the same or not), but what we've gotten here, especially in the last 2 seasons is so far below anything else I've seen on TV--including the lower rent networks--that I can't see how NBC puts up with it.

As I was watching today, I really felt like this is a completely different and unrelated show from the first 4 seasons and, in a lot of ways it is.  It was after season 4 that they wrote the viewers a letter, telling them to forget everything that happened and just go with it.  There is no continuity, none of the quirky humor that lit up the first seasons.  It just feels like everyone has...given up.  I mean, I can even see that in some of the performances and that is...not good.

[Snow Fairy]

Why doesn't anyone try to parent or just talk to Diana? Talk about what she did as a kid, did she have fun, carefully getting information? Adalind as her mother is supposed to want to know.

I also don't think Diana is evil. She is a kid, she has powers, she just want to show them off, and she wants to be praised for what she does. And I thought she would react differently about Nick and the others. I actually liked how it played off in the end

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

You are very polite. 

Yeah, I don't get it.  Kouf and Greenwalt had success with other shows (although I never watched their other shows, so I don't know if it was more of the same or not), but what we've gotten here, especially in the last 2 seasons is so far below anything else I've seen on TV--including the lower rent networks--that I can't see how NBC puts up with it.

As I was watching today, I really felt like this is a completely different and unrelated show from the first 4 seasons and, in a lot of ways it is.  It was after season 4 that they wrote the viewers a letter, telling them to forget everything that happened and just go with it.  There is no continuity, none of the quirky humor that lit up the first seasons.  It just feels like everyone has...given up.  I mean, I can even see that in some of the performances and that is...not good.

I watched Buffy, but hated the retcon younger sister who reminds me of not needed Trubel.  I never understood the appeal of Angel/David B and thought Buffy/Spike were smoking hot.  

It probably would have helped if the writers/show runners had found someone else to run Grimm after the end of s4 and put us out of our misery!

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Snow Fairy said:

I also don't think Diana is evil. She is a kid, she has powers, she just want to show them off, and she wants to be praised for what she does. And I thought she would react differently about Nick and the others. I actually liked how it played off in the end

After everything last year with Creepy Diana and killing Daddy's mistress, I half wondered if she would be against Nick and Crew because of Nick/Adiland. My worst thought was, could/would she try to kill Kelly? Babies require a lot of attention, would she get jealous of Kelly and decide he had to go?

I'm glad she seems mostly indifferent to Kelly and Nick. However, when Nick told Adiland she had to go back to Renard and, her reaction was but I Hate Him! My reaction was awww crap, Diana's going to go off.

[OtterMommy]

35 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

I watched Buffy, but hated the retcon younger sister who reminds me of not needed Trubel.  I never understood the appeal of Angel/David B and thought Buffy/Spike were smoking hot.  

It probably would have helped if the writers/show runners had found someone else to run Grimm after the end of s4 and put us out of our misery!

So, it sounds like you're saying that Kouf and Greenwalt have a history of not being able to sustain a show after a few seasons?  If so, that begs the question as to why NBC would air one of their show and/or why they would keep them with the show (NBC owns Grimm, not K/G).  From everything I've read about how networks work, it sounds like they strongly prefer shows that they can see running for many seasons--frequently past their natural expiration dates.

It's true that Grimm outlasted any other show on NBC that debuted that season, but this is not a show that is dying a natural death.  This is a show that was systematically killed by misdirection and ineptitude.

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

I'm glad she seems mostly indifferent to Kelly and Nick. However, when Nick told Adiland she had to go back to Renard and, her reaction was but I Hate Him! My reaction was awww crap, Diana's going to go off.

Okay, so THIS is what I don't understand.  If Renard is so evil, and so hell-bent on destroying a man who he tried to make his ally for the past 5 years or so, why doesn't he use Diana?  He knows what she is capable of doing and he knows that she's basically a blank slate.  I also think the thing about how Eve can see some of the symbols on the cloth but Diana can see them all is supposed to show us that, yes, Eve is the most powerful hexenbiest ever, but Diana is the mostest powerfulest hexenbiest ever.    So, Renard basically has an H-bomb at his finger tips, but then he completely ignores her.

I really, really don't understand how Kouf and Greenwalt lasted this long....

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, neuromom said:

As we sit here, picking apart the inconsistencies and ridiculousness of the episode, it got me to wondering- shouldn't a show like this (which has had success and a lot of popularity) have a "script reader" whose sole responsibility is to edit the script and point out all the inconsistencies? I mean, I'll bet even high school theatre departments have people do that job on a script before they turn it into a play.

kinda makes the whole of Grimm showrunners and writers to be....amateurish.

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

You are very polite. 

Yeah, I don't get it.  Kouf and Greenwalt had success with other shows (although I never watched their other shows, so I don't know if it was more of the same or not), but what we've gotten here, especially in the last 2 seasons is so far below anything else I've seen on TV--including the lower rent networks--that I can't see how NBC puts up with it.

As I was watching today, I really felt like this is a completely different and unrelated show from the first 4 seasons and, in a lot of ways it is.  It was after season 4 that they wrote the viewers a letter, telling them to forget everything that happened and just go with it.  There is no continuity, none of the quirky humor that lit up the first seasons.  It just feels like everyone has...given up.  I mean, I can even see that in some of the performances and that is...not good.

 

Greenwalt created this show that I absolutely love. It's called Profit. It's about a sociopath whose criminally negligent parents plunked him down in a cardboard box, threw food at him, and let the television raise him. The majority of the show is Profit murdering his way up the corporate ladder. It's amazing and so ahead of its time. It was on Fox in 1996. It only lasted a season, but is considered one of the "brilliant, but cancelled" shows. It was on 2 years before the Sopranos and years before Mad Men, Dexter, or Breaking Bad. It's not perfect and it some really dated elements, but the core is really good. Actually if Angel had lasted more than 5 seasons, there was talk of making Profit one of the senior partners at Wolfram & Hart.

I also thought Greenwalt did great work on Angel, but I suspect that Joss Whedon might have been the quality control person there.

Kouf's other work is really pedestrian. It's not too say that his work isn't entertaining, but it really doesn't hold up.

Kouf really doesn't have show running experience. Greenwalt is the one who has worked on TV. He's worked on Angel and Buffy, The Commish, The Wonder Years, Dougie Houser, and the X-Files.

The problem with this show really appears to be that it never seemed to have a show bible or if it did, it wasn't a robust one. They never really established the rules of the universe that they created, including the motivations of all of their characters. Renard, Adalind, and Juliette have suffered greatly because of the inability to define what motivates their actions. We're told that wesen children are the result of two wesen parents, but no explanation for Renard. We've never really been given good explanations for the gaining and losing powers with Adalind, Juliette, Wu, and frankly Nick. The show initially proposed that most of what we, the viewers, knew as fairytale magic was/is biological. They've since abandoned that. They've never explained what the Royals wanted. They created groups like the Wesenrein, which are fixated on wesen purity, but cast white actors to portray wesen with African and Native American names. There is so much wrong with the show that trying to figure out what went wrong feels impossible. And of course, they seemed to have fired whomever was in charge of maintaining continuity. 

I'm hoping in 10-20 years someone will reboot the show like they did Battlestar Galactica or Charmed. 

Edited January 15, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Darklazr]

ABC's OUAT is a mess and I dropped the show last fall.

Fox's Sleepy Hollow fell apart (IMHO) after the end of s2 and seems like a complete bore now that Abby is dead.

NBC's Grimm became a mess (IMHO) when the show's lead was raped by the same woman that raped his partner!  WTF?!  Who writes that kind of trash and expect fans to stick around?  Now the lead is paired up romantically with his rapist and they have a rape baby named after his mother who was setup to be killed by his ex, a hexenbiest that is back to normal.  Ugh.  NBC owned the show and I guess they're the ones that fans should really be pissed at for not cleaning up the writers/show runners in s4. 

 

6 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

So, it sounds like you're saying that Kouf and Greenwalt have a history of not being able to sustain a show after a few seasons?  If so, that begs the question as to why NBC would air one of their show and/or why they would keep them with the show (NBC owns Grimm, not K/G).  From everything I've read about how networks work, it sounds like they strongly prefer shows that they can see running for many seasons--frequently past their natural expiration dates.

It's true that Grimm outlasted any other show on NBC that debuted that season, but this is not a show that is dying a natural death.  This is a show that was systematically killed by misdirection and ineptitude.

Okay, so THIS is what I don't understand.  If Renard is so evil, and so hell-bent on destroying a man who he tried to make his ally for the past 5 years or so, why doesn't he use Diana?  He knows what she is capable of doing and he knows that she's basically a blank slate.  I also think the thing about how Eve can see some of the symbols on the cloth but Diana can see them all is supposed to show us that, yes, Eve is the most powerful hexenbiest ever, but Diana is the mostest powerfulest hexenbiest ever.    So, Renard basically has an H-bomb at his finger tips, but then he completely ignores her.

I really, really don't understand how Kouf and Greenwalt lasted this long....

Joss Whedon created and ran Buffy, but adding the younger sister was dumb, IMO.  However, Buffy was the bomb and I enjoyed the overall show and it was good until the end.  Yes, there were a few missteps with Buffy, but not what we see with Grimm.  I was never a fan of Angel's and never watched the spinoff show.

 

6 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

So, it sounds like you're saying that Kouf and Greenwalt have a history of not being able to sustain a show after a few seasons?  If so, that begs the question as to why NBC would air one of their show and/or why they would keep them with the show (NBC owns Grimm, not K/G).  From everything I've read about how networks work, it sounds like they strongly prefer shows that they can see running for many seasons--frequently past their natural expiration dates.

It's true that Grimm outlasted any other show on NBC that debuted that season, but this is not a show that is dying a natural death.  This is a show that was systematically killed by misdirection and ineptitude.

Okay, so THIS is what I don't understand.  If Renard is so evil, and so hell-bent on destroying a man who he tried to make his ally for the past 5 years or so, why doesn't he use Diana?  He knows what she is capable of doing and he knows that she's basically a blank slate.  I also think the thing about how Eve can see some of the symbols on the cloth but Diana can see them all is supposed to show us that, yes, Eve is the most powerful hexenbiest ever, but Diana is the mostest powerfulest hexenbiest ever.    So, Renard basically has an H-bomb at his finger tips, but then he completely ignores her.

I really, really don't understand how Kouf and Greenwalt lasted this long....

The whole point of Kelly taking Diana was so that she would not be used by the Royal's or Adalind.  So, it makes sense that Renard would not use his (Eric's) kid to go after Nick or anyone else.  I am thinking in the end that Renard may have been running a long con.  Oh, hell, we know the show is not about to go this entertaining route!

[Blue Plastic]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I liked the idea of the trust me knot, and I was kind of disappointed that it came to nothing. Of course, realistically I knew that they wouldn't kill off Nick or Renard (at least not until the series finale) but I thought at least we would get to see them grudgingly help each other like the olden days.

Yes, I was hoping we would get a moment of Renard trying to renege and getting briefly choked, then released when he decides to go through with his end of the deal.  But of course we didn't get that because Renard always has the upper hand.

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This episode basically went in a circle and reset itself. We were left in the exact same spot as we were at the end of the first episode - Nick a fugitive and Renard after him with the police force behind him. Talk about "filler."

That cracked me up too - "OK I'll Google "ancient runes" and pore through them in 30 seconds.

So disappointed that they gave us a crappy filler episode.  I was hoping that with only 13 episodes in this final season, they'd make all 13 count.  Instead we barely got any progression at all.  Trubel left, Nick started going all Gollum, everyone found out Rosalee is pregnant, and Diana provided all the symbols on the cloth that can't be easily googled.  Not very compelling.  I was watching for Monroe and Bud basically.

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 You could just call this episode "Nick and the Deathly Hallows" because that stick might as well just BE the Elder Wand from HP, by way of the Ring from LotR. Where is this going? Why is this happening so late in the game? Why should I care? And can they really not think of their own plot points?

Definitely made me think of the Elder Wand too, not just Frodo/Gollum/One Ring.  Wonder if someone defeats Nick, do they become the new "master" of the Stick?  Probably not but made me think of that possibility.

3 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

"No. Seriously, where should I meet you?" would have been my reaction. Usually when a character says something like that it's a woman, and it is a test.

I assumed Nick said that in case someone was tapping the phone line...  But yeah it was goofy.

2 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

Why doesn't anyone try to parent or just talk to Diana? Talk about what she did as a kid, did she have fun, carefully getting information? Adalind as her mother is supposed to want to know.

One of the many things that make me go WTF? on this show.  How can Adalind even take Diana out anywhere if she doesn't talk to her or explain that she needs to keep her powers under wrap in public and isn't supposed to kill people with her powers except in self defense?

I was watching mainly for Bud and Monroe, like I said.  Bud really had some good lines and stood out to me a lot this episode.  Loved him.  Did also think Adalind and Renard's conversation in the interrogation room had some good dialogue.

[ShadowFacts]

There was more stupid clunky dialogue in the tunnel when Eve and Trubel reiterated that they have to find out the meaning of the symbols on the cloth.  We have to, Nick.  Bleh.

The best scene for me besides everything Bud was Hank and Wu with Renard in interrogation.  They are ballsy.  I love them.

I agree with those who have said this episode was a wheel-spinner.  That is really too bad.  They did not just run out of fairy tales, as they have said in interviews, they have run out of ideas altogether. 

[possibilities]

Where did DG say taht stuff about Stockholm Syndrome and death with dignity? I want to read that!!

[OtterMommy]

6 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Where did DG say taht stuff about Stockholm Syndrome and death with dignity? I want to read that!!

The Death with Dignity part is from a rather recent (like, 2 weeks ago?) article in the Oregonian, that is linked to in, I think, the spoiler thread (I'll repost the link there so it is easier to find).  He was spouting off about the Stockholm Syndrome part in the fall of 2015, when the show was just starting to push Nadalind.  And then interviews with him became very few and far between....hmmmmm.  He was very vocal about not wanting the show to take that direction and never really bothered to hide his distaste that it did.  He also seems to be the only cast member (who has spoken out about about the cancellation) who doesn't seem very upset about it.

ETA: It's from TVLine and I just reposted it in spoilers

Edited January 15, 2017 by OtterMommy