S12.E06: Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox

[Diane]

THREE WINCHESTERS ARE BETTER THAN ONE – When hunters gather together to celebrate the life and tragic death of one of their own, Sam (Jared Padalecki) Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) must take action when a demon starts picking off hunters one by one.

[catrox14]

[SueB]

Yay! This is the place!

[Mick Lady]

I missed the countdown! Physical Therapist here all morning with Mick, darn it! But as usual, you guys came through! 

[Morrigan2575]

Wow, I loved this episode. Loved the weird little Hunter Family Network. I wasn't a huge fan of the Road House story but, it was cool to see that type of world explored again.

I loved seeing Jody again, she's one of my all time favorite characters. Bonus points for not having to deal with Claire. When the demon got into Jody I really worried that they were going to kill her off.

I'm iffy on Mary, I get her but right now she's not clicking. I also didn't like the mini retcon having her out hunting after Dean was born.  However, I was really worried she was going to take Billie's offer and go back to heaven. I wouldn't have cared so much for Mary dying (again) but, that would have destroyed the boys. 

I wasn't really sure what to think of that little As a introduction. However, by the end of the episode it really worked for me. I felt that I could feel for all these new characters because of their relationship to Asa

Edited November 18, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Jediknight]

When the episode starts off with BTO within the first few minutes, that's a good sign, and this didn't disappoint.

Jody didn't die, and Alex and Claire have a good relationship, so that's great.  Billie was awesome, Mary was good, the Twins could make for good recurring characters (as long as they live), and Kim Rhodes had so much fun as PossessedJody.  I really enjoyed this episode, nice tight episode in a central location that didn't separate the characters.

I also liked the mention of Crowley not being in Hell as being terrible.  Crowley's kind of a necessary evil to be in charge.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Jediknight

[MysteryGuest]

This was a much better episode (IMO) than the last couple, but I think I've officially determined that I cannot watch the episodes live anymore.  The interminable commercial breaks just ruin it for me.  By the time they actually get back to the show, I've forgotten what the hell I was even watching.  Thank God for streaming!!

That being said, the boys got to be capable tonight, which was a big win.  I agree about Jody...I thought for sure they were going to kill her off and I was freaking out.  Thankfully, they didn't go there.  Interesting scene with Billie and Mary.  I would have been surprised if they'd gotten rid of her character so soon, but it was believable.  I honestly wasn't sure what she would decide, so it worked.

I like the idea of exploring the hunter world a bit more.  Especially in light of the BMOL looming in the background.  I think maybe Sam and Dean might have to enlist the help of their fellow American hunters to ultimately defeat them.  That would be cool.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

This was a good one IMO!  No complaints about anything.  

Dean was awesome.  Sam was fun.  Jody is made of awesome and rainbows, loved her so much this ep!

Mary was fine and less annoying than she's been since the season started.  The hunters were an interesting mix - Jesse from TVD was one of the twins, almost a crossover!! (Not really but I would like to have nice things tonight)

I will definitely be watching this one again!

[Boopsahoy]

Gosh I love Jody!  She tells it like it is, always speaks her mind.  Thank God she didn't die! I thought she might at one point!

Loved Sam in this episode, the way he tried to keep the peace.

Poor Dean, still feeling abandoned. I really thought Mary was going to go with Billie, that would have really crushed him.  Not sure if I am happy she didn't go or disappointed. I am leaning towards happy because I couldn't bear to see Dean disappointed once again.  I know this all affects Sam too, but its different for Dean. He KNEW this Mary. Well it seems like I'm not a big Mary fan.

I loved that the Winchesters are THE Winchesters in the hunter world.

I need to rewatch but  as of right now I really liked the episode. I usually like it more the 2nd time.

[Binns]

20 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 

I like the idea of exploring the hunter world a bit more.  Especially in light of the BMOL looming in the background.  I think maybe Sam and Dean might have to enlist the help of their fellow American hunters to ultimately defeat them.  That would be cool.

Oooh, I love this idea! 

Great episode for me. I liked the backstory (and BTO) and really felt an interest in the other hunters which I never did with the Roadhouse or even Ellen and Jo. The twins were cool. I thought Kim knocked it out of the park with Possessed Jody. For a second I thought Mary was going to go with Billie...but I can see it coming down the line. 

Is this the first time they've been to Canada?

Dean's still excited about killing Hitler....ha. 

[bethy]

I have a lot of words about this episode. 

I remain conflicted about Mary. On the one hand, yeah, I get that she's having a hard time being back. But Jody's little speech to Dean about giving anything to have her husband and son back applies to Mary as well. She's got her sons back. Sure not the way she remembers them from before she died and not the way she remembers the imaginary babies from heaven, but they're her SONS. 

At the beginning of Jody's speech I was afraid she was going to basically tell Dean that he should be glad to have his mom back and to buck up, little soldier. I'm glad that it shifted to her acknowledging how hard it would be for Dean and to offer to listen. I love Jody so much.

Loved the scene with Jody and the boys at the beginning. So cute. Also sweet that Sam was so protective of Jody during/after the demon possession.

Does saying "Christo" no longer work in terms of revealing demons. If I remember correctly, in season one we were told that demons "flinch" at the name of God. Just throwin' that out there for all those experienced hunters.

I was kind of grossed out by the boy twin saying that his mom taught him how to seduce men? Yikes. I'm sure that wasn't meant to sound like the woman pimped her child out, but that was how it came across to me. 

If Sam's yelling at the horrible mom last week (week before?) was about his repressed anger regarding Mary's abandonment, I hope we get to see more of that. I feel like poor Sam is stuck in this position of being understanding about his Mary, when surely he's feeling hurt, too. I did like the he was trying to help Mary see Dean's position, too. I guess it's his turn to be the mediator between his brother and a parent. 

I liked that Dean's concern when he was locked out was all about Sam. I mean, I'm sure he was concerned about Mary and Jody, but he was all "Sam! Sammy!" 

I am liking that I feel sympathy for Sam this season and really like his character again. I love that I'm enjoying the boys' relationship with each other. That makes up for my wariness about Mary to a large extent. 

[Pete Martell]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

Does saying "Christo" no longer work in terms of revealing demons. If I remember correctly, in season one we were told that demons "flinch" at the name of God. Just throwin' that out there for all those experienced hunters.

Didn't they drop that after the one episode it was in? I always kind of wondered if they thought it was too easy. 

[bethy]

1 minute ago, Pete Martell said:

Didn't they drop that after the one episode it was in? I always kind of wondered if they thought it was too easy. 

Probably. It was just funny to me that when we have that whole scene early on about how to identify a possessed person, now we have this group of hunters standing around trying to figure out how to id the demon. I did so love that airplane scene and Dean muttering Christo to the totally not possessed flight attendant who was all, "Um. Excuse me?" 

[SueB]

Excellent episode.  Already did a rewatch.  I'll be really looking at all the layers in this ep.  

[companionenvy]

I liked the episode, for the most part, but I have to say it:

Anti-possession tattoos? Remember when that was a thing?

[Diane]

11 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I liked the episode, for the most part, but I have to say it:

Anti-possession tattoos? Remember when that was a thing?

Seriously it only takes about 20 minutes, I have one, everyone should. I loved this episode, I will write more after I re-watch.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Diane
I didn't live in the episode!!!

[7kstar]

Loved, Loved this episode.  So many great moments.

Dean owing Billie...now how will that bite him in the butt?  Glad Mary wasn't how she got her payback.  Glad Mary is starting to get she needs to appreciate being alive with her boys.  Billie's speech became a powerful wake up call.

Loved that Jodi knew the right words for Dean and even in the end tried to help Mary move forward.  Sam helping his mom and concern for brother is wonderful feels. 

Glad after some not so great eps we get one that feels so right.  Some nice surprises.  I wasn't expecting some of the stuff they did and liked that they did try to trick me about killing Jodi but resisted it. 

Enjoying everyone's comments.  It's been a long time since I really loved the show this much.  Can the next one not suck too???  Or is that asking too much?  :)

[catrox14]

I'm not sure how I feel about this episode. I'll save some other thoughts for my re-watch. Maybe I'm just in a weird head space lately and can't enjoy much of anything.

I did like the running gag "I killed Hitler".

I don't believe for two seconds that Garth would tell anyone Dean and Sam's secrets. That should have come from Walt and Roy who did know about it.

So, Mary left a one year old Dean with John so she could hunt and John had no idea she was off hunting. So if she died, John might never have known that she died nor why. Sure lessens the impact of Dean's memory of hearing Mary complain to John about having two boys at home and makes Mary a hypocrite. I'm not thrilled wit that soft retcon. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

Mick and I loved it! I hope Dean's "I killed Hitler" lasts all season, what a hoot!

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

56 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I liked the episode, for the most part, but I have to say it:

Anti-possession tattoos? Remember when that was a thing?

Was just going to post that.

Jody's been part of the 'hunter world' for like what, 6 or 7 years now?  How does she not have - at the very least - anti-possession jewelry, if not a tattoo?

 

I'm mostly ok with Mary being back alive, but please end the angst sooner rather than later.  We're assuming that weeks are passing between eps, right?  So, she's had quite a bit of time and space 'to figure things out'.  Let's not continually keep dragging this out just for the sake of (melo)drama, writers, that's all I'm asking.

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

I liked the episode, for the most part, but I have to say it:

Anti-possession tattoos? Remember when that was a thing?

I totally forgot about these! Shouldn't every Hunter have one? Honestly, the writer on this show are driving me mad...

[sino8r]

Although the episode was decent, they really screwed up the lore so much this time. In the first scene, the kid gets scratched on the face by a werewolf yet doesn't turn and it's never mentioned again. Wtf?! That's a huge deal imo. Just seemed like an identity mark they used to show the kid growing up in the following scenes. Not to mention they show a 1990s truck when it supposedly the 1980s. Also, as y'all already mentioned, the lack of devils trap tattoos/amulets is ridiculous! The twins could have been more helpful in the demon fight (besides noticing the warding) due to be raised by a witch. The writers really need to get a supernatural lore expert to review the scripts. The inconsistencies are getting sad at this point... 

One last thing... The way the writers screwed up Death and making him out to be a bad guy was so stupid. So now we have this annoying reaper named Billie threatening the boys every several episodes. I find her irritating! Why don't they just kill her, seriously? I know some of y'all like her and it's nice to have more female characters but she's so annoying to me lol! She's like a bee that is somewhat menacing but mostly just annoying that just flies around pestering you went you're outside. They just won't stop lol! 

Edited November 18, 2016 by sino8r

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

10 minutes ago, sino8r said:

Although the episode was decent, they really screwed up the lore so much this time. In the first scene, the kid gets scratched on the face by a werewolf yet doesn't turn and it's never mentioned again. Wtf?! That's a huge deal imo. Just seemed like an identity mark they used to show the kid growing up in the following scenes. Not to mention they show a 1990s truck when it supposedly the 1980s. Also, as y'all already mentioned, the lack of devils trap tattoos/amulets is ridiculous! The twins could have been more helpful in the demon fight (besides noticing the warding) due to be raised by a witch. The writers really need to get a supernatural lore expert to review the scripts. The inconsistencies are getting sad at this point... 

The fact that this show has now been on the air for 11 & a quarter seasons just really exacerbates that problem, too.  I know that's a long time and lots of things to keep track of, but how can you run roughshod over your own lore, that you've tried to establish after producing 240+ episodes in the process, just to make things in one 43-minute span work better with everything else in the script? 

The script should be written within & throughout the already established lore, not writing a script and adding in, or subtracting, bits of lore to smooth things out.

Edited November 18, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[ahrtee]

52 minutes ago, sino8r said:

Although the episode was decent, they really screwed up the lore so much this time. In the first scene, the kid gets scratched on the face by a werewolf yet doesn't turn and it's never mentioned again. Wtf?! That's a huge deal imo. Just seemed like an identity mark they used to show the kid growing up in the following scenes. Not to mention they show a 1990s truck when it supposedly the 1980s. Also, as y'all already mentioned, the lack of devils trap tattoos/amulets is ridiculous! The twins could have been more helpful in the demon fight (besides noticing the warding) due to be raised by a witch. The writers really need to get a supernatural lore expert to review the scripts. The inconsistencies are getting sad at this point... 

 

I believe that a scratch from a werewolf won't turn you...it has to be a bite.  (At least, it took a bite for Madison, Garth and all the obnoxious kids in Bitten...which, Bitten?)  So I don't think they messed up their lore.  (I don't remember whether the guy in Red Meat was bitten, though both he and his wife--and both the Winchesters--were pretty scratched up and only he was turned.)  

Lack of amulets/tattoos was a little annoying, but it didn't really distract from the episode for me--at least, not nearly as much as all the glaring logical/tactical errors in the last two eps, so I can handwave 'em.  And to me, it's more important that this writer actually seemed to understand (and like!) all the characters, and none of them were OOC or annoying.  So, I'm counting it as a win!

ETA:  From Supernatural Wiki entry on werewolves:  Werewolves are humans that transform into wolf-like creatures under the influence of a full moon. They can either be born as werewolves to werewolf parents, or become a werewolf as a result of being bitten (known as a "bitten"). Pureblood werewolves also prefer to use the term lycanthrope.[1]  Source: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Werewolves

Edited November 18, 2016 by ahrtee
I've been trained to always cite my sources. Sorry.

[helent]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So Mary left a one year old Dean with John so she could hunt and John had no idea she was off hunting. So if she died, John might never have known that she died nor why. Sure lessens the impact of Dean's memory of hearing Mary complain to John about having two boys at home and makes Mary a hypocrite. I'm not thrilled wit that soft retcon. 

She said something to Asa about having history with that werewolf - I think this was a "one time only, unfinished business" hunt, not a regular thing for her.

[mertensia]

What a creepy house. Who was their decorator- Hannibal Lecter?

This was an enjoyable episode, though yeah: time to talk Jody into a necessary tattoo. 

I loved that both Sam and Dean were all "we're...legends. Okayyyy.  Let's talk about something else."

[sino8r]

5 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

The fact that this show has now been on the air for 11 & a quarter seasons just really exacerbates that problem, too.  I know that's a long time and lots of things to keep track of, but how can you run roughshod over your own lore, that you've tried to establish after producing 240+ episodes in the process, just to make things in one 43-minute span work better with everything else in the script? 

The script should be written within & throughout the already established lore, not writing a script and adding in, or subtracting, bits of lore to smooth things out

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I believe that a scratch from a werewolf won't turn you...it has to be a bite.  (At least, it took a bite for Madison, Garth and all the obnoxious kids in Bitten...which, Bitten?)  So I don't think they messed up their lore.  (I don't remember whether the guy in Red Meat was bitten, though both he and his wife--and both the Winchesters--were pretty scratched up and only he was turned.)  

Lack of amulets/tattoos was a little annoying, but it didn't really distract from the episode for me--at least, not nearly as much as all the glaring logical/tactical errors in the last two eps, so I can handwave 'em.  And to me, it's more important that this writer actually seemed to understand (and like!) all the characters, and none of them were OOC or annoying.  So, I'm counting it as a win!

ETA:  From Supernatural Wiki entry on werewolves:  Werewolves are humans that transform into wolf-like creatures under the influence of a full moon. They can either be born as werewolves to werewolf parents, or become a werewolf as a result of being bitten (known as a "bitten"). Pureblood werewolves also prefer to use the term lycanthrope.[1]  Source: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Werewolves

Yeah, I looked it up after replying myself lol! Seems that a scratch works on general werewolf lore and not on Supernatural. Only a bite works for the show. Maybe it was all the horror movies I watched around Halloween lol! One thing I did enjoy (as some of y'all are mentioning) are the legends of the Winchesters! I know they've been mentioned by various run-ins with hunters but this was great! I wish they had gone a little more in depth with that. I'd love to hear the hunters debating whether some of it was bullsh!t or not hehehhe! So far, I'm enjoying this season! I hope the MOL things pay off along with Lucifer side story. I know there was a bit of controversy with the Nazi Thule episode but I kinda wish they ended up fighting Hitlers 4th Reich of something. That would have been interesting to me as a history buff but would have been too silly, I guess... The manic behavior of Hitler was very accurate from what I understand. Also, the surprising love of animals and his fellow German people was right on par. Wish the kid and his golem was on the episode though. I guess it reminded me of the Stein family. The guys Dean fought when he became a demon. It had some potential as well. I guess the British MOL will have to do. It's kind of nice to have Supernatural branch out a bit from the demons, monsters, and angels. Much like the Walking Dead, the real danger is from people! As pessimistic as that view is, that's the truth imo... 

Edited November 18, 2016 by sino8r

[Boopsahoy]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 (I don't remember whether the guy in Red Meat was bitten, though both he and his wife--and both the Winchesters--were pretty scratched up and only he was turned.)  

Yes he was bitten. He had that bite mark in his hand or arm. A scratch doesn't turn you on SPN, it has to be a bite from what I remember.

[SueB]

8 hours ago, Diane said:

Seriously it only takes about 20 minutes, I have one everyone should. I lived this episode, I will write more after I re-watch.

So... you were at a hunter's wake and everyone got possessed by a demon?  JUST KIDDING.  I just couldn't resist. Looking forward to your post re-watch comments.

7 hours ago, sino8r said:

Although the episode was decent, they really screwed up the lore so much this time. In the first scene, the kid gets scratched on the face by a werewolf yet doesn't turn and it's never mentioned again. Wtf?! That's a huge deal imo. Just seemed like an identity mark they used to show the kid growing up in the following scenes. Not to mention they show a 1990s truck when it supposedly the 1980s. Also, as y'all already mentioned, the lack of devils trap tattoos/amulets is ridiculous! The twins could have been more helpful in the demon fight (besides noticing the warding) due to be raised by a witch. The writers really need to get a supernatural lore expert to review the scripts. The inconsistencies are getting sad at this point... 

One last thing... The way the writers screwed up Death and making him out to be a bad guy was so stupid. So now we have this annoying reaper named Billie threatening the boys every several episodes. I find her irritating! Why don't they just kill her, seriously? I know some of y'all like her and it's nice to have more female characters but she's so annoying to me lol! She's like a bee that is somewhat menacing but mostly just annoying that just flies around pestering you went you're outside. They just won't stop lol! 

Werewolf lore - that's intact .. as others have said, it takes a bite
Truck - He was very young in 1980.  He would have been just over 20 (at most) in 1990.  So, I'm not an expert on make/model/year, but a 90's truck seems okay to me. ETA: Jeep Wranglers were produced starting in 1986.
Lack of anti-possession tattoos/amulets: yeah, hard to swallow.  I have a fanwank regarding lack of hunter cohesion I'll spew out later but right now I'll just say that it seemed plot driven.
 

Edited November 18, 2016 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

Meh.  Sorry, but I saw Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them last night and -- well, this was awful in comparison.  The plot contrivances alone made the episode nearly unwatchable.  Apart from the lack of anti-possession charms/tattoos, is Billie their Reaper stalker now?  Does she reap everyone who dies around Sam and Dean?  Lame.  And what was the point of Asa's friend killing him accidentally?  I don't see what it added to the story other than "shock for the sake of shock".  I thought that was over now that Carver's no longer running the show.

I have to rewatch later because my husband missed it.  Maybe it'll improve.

[mertensia]

Sam must be ready to scream from having to sit through Dean's endless"I killed Hitler" retelling. 

It's interesting that Dean was the peacemaker between John and Sam and Sam is busy trying to keep Dean and Mary communicating with each other.

[Aeryn13]

I was very pleasantly surprised by this. It was overall a better-written episode than last week but kept the good writing for Dean. *fistpump*   That only leaves one of the three new writers as the horrible one. Though now I wanna kick that awful psychic ep even more.

Heartily enjoyed no stupid buffoon humor for Dean. If it was the writer or the director or whomever, thank you. Instead Dean got to be competent, badass and acknowledged as such. Yay. The only small niggle is I would have loved to hear one of the stories they tell about him. I`m guessing they keep bringing up the Lucy possession because Lucy is still on the show but I would have loved a Dean-story. Maybe some acknowledgment of what he did in the Season 11 Finale. 

At least the Winchesters aren`t pariahs in the hunting community. And they did acknowledge that they don`t really mingle. They just know people who do. A bit silly to pin it on John, though, Guy has been dead well over a decade. The brothers could have changed things.

Billie is not doing much for me as a character. She only seemed to be here to get Mary to voice her wish to be alive after all and have it be witnessed by her sons.

Not sure what they are doing with Mary. Other than some angst, nothing but absolutely nothing happens with that plot. Which kinda makes it a non-plot for me. And she hunted with a toddler at home? Okay, there was another parent left in case of emergency but that is borderline. In that case, I`d say try to put another hunter on the case if at all possible.  

But, and this was the BEST surprise of the episode, no stupid Dean-grovelling or apology or some such. Jody acknowledged the validity of HIS struggles. Praise any deity who listens.

The case was so-so, I felt though the guest characters worked well. Even the Asa-story in flashback montage managed to breathe more life and sympathy into a character than some episodes have done for characters with ample screentime.   

An enjoyable romp. 

[auntvi]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

this writer actually seemed to understand (and like!) all the characters

This episode felt very, very different & I enjoyed it. For one thing, a house full of people - not monsters - for the Winchesters to interact with. And they felt like real people, not props. A big chunk of the episode was shot inside that house, but it felt less claustrophobic than some scenes in the bunker with just Sam & Dean.

Fortunately for me I don't notice most continuity errors!

[DittyDotDot]

Aww, they reused Bobby's house! Love that! Also loved Dean just taking control and everyone naturally following his lead. And, I'm not one for a monster monologue, but Kim Rhodes made this one somewhat palatable!

"Didn't you die like four times?" AWKWARD!
"I heard you were possessed by the devil?" AWKWARD!
"You and Asa had secret alone time?" AWKWARD!
"This is your mom?" AWWWWKWARD!!!!!

Anyway, I liked the beginning a lot, but once the case kicked up I kinda lost interest. Too much running around like chickens with their heads cut off for my taste. They're supposed to be hunters, are they not? And too much melodrama in the end. Can we not just have some fun anymore? 

On 11/17/2016 at 9:38 PM, bethy said:

I was kind of grossed out by the boy twin saying that his mom taught him how to seduce men? Yikes. I'm sure that wasn't meant to sound like the woman pimped her child out, but that was how it came across to me. 

I was wondering if his witch mother would turn out to be Rowena? ;)

On 11/17/2016 at 9:38 PM, bethy said:

If Sam's yelling at the horrible mom last week (week before?) was about his repressed anger regarding Mary's abandonment, I hope we get to see more of that. I feel like poor Sam is stuck in this position of being understanding about his Mary, when surely he's feeling hurt, too. I did like the he was trying to help Mary see Dean's position, too. I guess it's his turn to be the mediator between his brother and a parent. 

I kinda like how they've bizarroed this relationship. It used to be Dean stuck in the middle between Sam and John, now it's Sam stuck in the middle of Dean and Mary. Not the same, of course, because Dean and Mary aren't literally butting heads or anything, but... .

Edited November 19, 2016 by DittyDotDot
It was pointed out I had missed a word. Better now.

[Demented Daisy]

28 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

"Didn't you die like four times?" AWKWARD!
"I heard you were possessed by the devil?" AWKWARD!
"You and Asa had secret alone time?" AWKWARD!
"This is your mom?" AWWWWKWARD!!!!!

 

*giggle snort*

[Wynne88]

When Dean told Sam “It’s not like we’re in the ‘live ‘til you’re 90, die in your sleep’ business. This only ends one way.” I kind of had to laugh.  How many times has it ended that 'one way' only for them to pop back up again?

I enjoyed the episode a lot.  I liked seeing Asa Fox's introduction as a young boy, and the quick montage of scenes that let us see him grow up and become an effective hunter.  I wonder if tying that first victim in the house to the ceiling was a direct stab at the Winchesters?  

My favorite part was probably when they showed up at Jody's house, and the banter thereafter.  That just felt incredibly natural, and it made me feel good that they had a place where they could just drop in and be certain of a welcome.

[Tony]

11 hours ago, sino8r said:

One last thing... The way the writers screwed up Death and making him out to be a bad guy was so stupid. So now we have this annoying reaper named Billie threatening the boys every several episodes. I find her irritating! Why don't they just kill her, seriously? I know some of y'all like her and it's nice to have more female characters but she's so annoying to me lol! She's like a bee that is somewhat menacing but mostly just annoying that just flies around pestering you went you're outside. They just won't stop lol! 

I'm the opposite. I find Billie awesome. Loved the snarky dialog between her and Dean. She's doesn't show up very often so her character is nowhere close to being annoying.

[Binns]

I forgot to mention- I love that the boys are complete legends and they had no idea. They just put their heads down and work and have no clue that their stories are told all over the country. Best part- it's probably all stories like "you won't BELIEVE what people are saying- there's no way these stories can be true" and the reality is probably so much MORE so than the stories. I hope we get to see more of that because I think the boys should hear that people respect them (though they are uncomfortable with too much fawning over them). 

 

@DittyDotDot and @mertensia great point about the interesting juxtoposition that Sam is the peacekeeper this time between Dean and Mary. 

[Aeryn13]

One small bit that I found very funny is Jody telling the story of how she met Asa. Who tried to introduce himself as an FBI-Agent named "Fox Mulder". The obvious implication is that she called him out on it, identified herself as, if not a hunter per se, at least hunter-adjacent and then they hit it off. 

What made me giggle about this is that it seems like a secret hunting handshake. Like, all hunters use terrible role-playing names for their impersonation of law enforcement and all the actual law enforcement personel (or other witnesses) not in the know buy those names without question. And the only ones who call you out are other hunters so that`s how you can suss each other out Probably not what they meant but this idea is so cute.

[trxr4kids]

55 minutes ago, Tony said:

 She's doesn't show up very often so her character is nowhere close to being annoying.

 I too find her annoying strictly because I liked Death and find it ridiculous that they killed him only to replace him with Billie who is imo less intimidating, unfathomable and downright scary. I mean really, Dean killed Death easy peasy, what's she gonna do, menace them into the void. I checked Super wiki and Death was in 5 episodes total (5.21 6.11 7.01 9.01 10.23) spread over 5 seasons as opposed to Billie, who has been in 5 episodes (11.02 11.10 11.17 11.23 12.06) in under 2 seasons. However I'm glad some people enjoy her and we can't all love the same characters since surely the show would only kill them off quicker. ;) Someone should start hating on Jody soon or she's a goner especially after this episode.

Edited November 18, 2016 by trxr4kids
to bold part of the quote, ya know for clarity or because I'm bored

[ae2]

4 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Meh.  Sorry, but I saw Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them last night and -- well, this was awful in comparison.

Wait... why in the world are you comparing these two? I haven't seen the movie yet, is there some plot similarity?

I guess I don't understand why else you'd compare the two. Fantastic Beasts has a budget 90 times higher than an episode of Supernatural, and they had 5 months to film it instead of 8 days.

Anyway. The actual plot of this episode was pretty bad, but thankfully it took a back seat to the world building and character interactions. We seem to get 1 or 2 episodes every season where they slow down the stories like this, and they're almost always the best episodes. Though I was certain Jody was going to bite it.

Count me in the Billie-haters club. She doesn't hold a candle to the real Death. But the big problem is her character has been totally pointless. They seemed to introduce her to build up some suspense - if the Winchesters die this time, it's for good! But we know they aren't going to die! Plus, they have God on their side, sooo... 

What else has she done? She mostly pops up into episodes for 30 seconds to make some empty threat, maybe act as a simple plot device (e.g. getting Dean through a door, or getting Dean into hell) that could have been better served by something or someone else.

[Demented Daisy]

20 minutes ago, ae2 said:

Wait... why in the world are you comparing these two? I haven't seen the movie yet, is there some plot similarity?

I guess I don't understand why else you'd compare the two. Fantastic Beasts has a budget 90 times higher than an episode of Supernatural, and they had 5 months to film it instead of 8 days.

Proximity.  Saw the first, was on a high, came home, watched SPN, crashed hard.  Had nothing to do with budget or the time restrictions.  Ask a couple of people around here and they will tell you that how I feel about an episode is 90% how it's written -- the story being told.  If I hate the story or how it's written, I hate the episode.

In this case, the writers fell into their own lazy traps.  It's a frequent problem, but it hasn't always been.  We've had plenty of good, tightly written episodes that avoid the messy plot holes and contrivances.

As always, mileage varies.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Demented Daisy
Clarity.

[Mick Lady]

3 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

 

 

*giggle snort*

Demented, anyone who brings up South Park is in my cool book!

 

2 hours ago, Tony said:

I'm the opposite. I find Billie awesome. Loved the snarky dialog between her and Dean. She's doesn't show up very often so her character is nowhere close to being annoying.

I agree, plus she so damn beautiful!

[catrox14]

Yeah, upon rewatch, I'm just not really feeling this episode other than the interactions between the boys and Jody and Mary.  I feel like it's a checklist episode with only the actors making it kind of not totally boring.

I just can't get over the poor continuity just to have all these hunters trapped together like a bunch of rookies.

-- It's just stupid to have a group of 10 + seemingly experienced hunters be so ill-prepared, one of which is Sam Fucking Winchester BTW, but they can't figure out how to identify the demon (like others have said "Christo" should still be a thing but whatever).No one has holy water, salt, markers or paint to make a better devils trap?

-- Why was Sam even worried about being possessed himself if he got the anti-possession tat redone? Oh, wait, PLOT HOLE or Sam and Dean are idiots for not making sure that was redone.

--Even if Mary was going to retire from hunting after that ONE LAST HUNT, if she had died, John was left with a one year old Dean and he likely would have thought Mary just abandoned him and baby!Dean. John would be reliving his childhood because he believed Henry abandoned him. Or perhaps he would have gone crazy trying to figure out what happened to her and he still would be an obsessed bastard but for a different reason.

Asa Fox:

Asa was a  TOO OBVIOUS Dean avatar. Why not just let Asa be not exactly like Dean? Give him his own personality and character beats please and thank you

Asa sent things to Mary Winchester, not Mary Campbell. Seems pretty unlikely that in his 35 years of hunting that Asa never heard of Dean, Sam or John Winchester.  Surely he would have pinged that they might be related to the woman hunter that saved his life. It's not like Winchester is THAT common of a name for him to ignore.

-- How did Asa come to have an angel blade? Those things aren't a dime a dozen and it was kept under glass.

-- Given that Asa was the blatant Dean avatar, who was killed accidentally by his best friend and seeing Dean finger the the angel blade,I got a serious Chekhov's Angel Blade vibe. If we keep the parallel between Dean and Asa, should I be worried that Dean might accidentally kill Cas with an angel blade? (Is Cain's prophecy still at play even though the Mark was removed?

I liked:

Jody and the boys eating pizza scene.

Dean standing his ground about Mary, openly expressing to HER directly his issues. I'm totally on Team Dean on this point. I'm tired of the vague "I still just need a little more". There is more to this than meets the eye IMO.

This is my 2nd favorite moment of the entire episode:

HIS FACE IS TOO MUCH. He's like a proud little boy. LOL I laughed so hard at this moment. Bless you, Dean Winchester. ( and Jensen Ackles for this moment)

[Morrigan2575]

That was so cute, he just wants please and get the occasional acknowledgement that he did "good"

Damn you John Winchester!

Edited November 18, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[goldy]

Loved this week episode! This season has been actually really good so far, the only episode I hated until now was last week episode (1205).

We saw very little of Asa at the begining of the episode but from what I saw, I loved him and I think Sam and Dean would have loved him too. Its too bad that they're finally bringing a new character I really love only to kill him in the first five minutes lol.

Love Jody! I love how the boys feel so comfortable with her. That scene of them sitting on Jody's couch and eating pizza felt really warm, I really do feel like the boys see her as a mother figure (which also sucks because I like Mary too and I want HER to be like that with Sam and Dean). I loved how Dean is still going on about killing Hitler, loved how he felt uncomfortable when Sam told Jody about his "hobbies" lol. And I loved loved LOVED Sam's "Be proud of your hobbies, it makes you who you are" followed by a "mean" laugh. We need more scenes like that! more brotherly banter, I miss that! 

I thought the boys were really sweet to offer Jody to come with her to Asa's wake (though, I did think it was weird that Jody knew another hunter and even had some kind of a romantic relationship with him giving the fact that she only knows about the supernatural world for a relatively short time) and I thought it was funny that she made the boys clean up before riding with her.

So, Asa was a Canadian hunter and it looks like he was working much like Sam and Dean. So does that mean that the BMoL will go after the Canadian hunters too?

The wake scenes were cool, it was nice to see the boys with other hunters, and I love the fact that they have hunter "fans" now, but, I did think that Asa's mother was annoying and her glasses were stupid. lol.

I thought it was sad that Dean thinks that Asa's death (hanging from a tree alone in the woods) was a good way for a hunter to die and I'm glad Sam didn't agree with him. I would like to think that Sam would never let Dean die like that.

I was glad to see Mary again, but I have to say; I hate what the writers are doing to her character! I mean, I get that she need space and that being dead for 33 years and then coming back is overwhelming to say the least, but I can't see her side of things when I see how hurt Dean is. I just can't!!! and I hate that the writers are making me not like Mary. I keep asking myself; where are they going with this? Do they make us (the fans) dislike Mary now so that we wont get use to her being around later in the season? Or is there a bigger picture here?

Anyway, I thought the scenes with Mary and the boys were nice and angsty. I totally get why Dean is upset with her and I also like the fact that Sam is more rational about the whole situation. I think its logical and fits with the boys individual character. I also thought it was really sweet that Sam knew exactly how Dean was feeling about Mary being away, noone knows Dean better than Sam and I love it about their relationship.

Jody's talk with Dean was really sweet too. I really felt like she, more than anyone, can empathise with him. and even though he didn't say much to her, I feel like he really appreciated her kind words to him.

I really enjoyed the demon storyline. It had some holes in it (like the fact that the hunters did not have an anti possession tattoos/bracelets) but all in all, it was an enjoyable plot. I kinda missed demons as villains and I'm glad it wasn't one of those "funny" demons that we saw in the last few seasons but a really bad one (he kinda reminded me of Azazel and Alister) I feel like it make it more satisfying to watch Sam and Dean kill/exorcise it when the demon is really evil.

I also loved how panicked and stressed Dean became when Billie showed up and he realized Sam was in danger. Not Jody, not even his mom was on his mind, the first thing he thought about was Sammy! And I know the show did the whole "Dean can't live without Sam" thing a million times before, but I don't care! I love it! I love how Dean loves his brother so much and now, more than ever (that Mary is back but is being kind of cold and not what he expected)  he KNOWS that his brother is the most important person in his life. Cas and Jody are nice and all but its Sam that REALLY knows him! I always loved Sam and Dean's relationship but this season, with them getting along so well and with Sam finally accepting his life as a hunter, I feel their bond is so much deeper and stronger and I absolutely adore it! 

Sam stopping Mary from killing Jody and him running to hug Jody after the demon was exorcise was really sweet. I always felt like Sam and Jody had a good chemistry going on. Not in a romantic way, of course, but more like what Dean had with Bobby. A deep friendship/parent figure sort of thing. Which is why I'm really glad Jody wasn't killed, I was really worried for a while there.

I thought that the revelation that Bucky was the one that actually killed Asa was kind of stupid, but then I thought that maybe that was intentional, maybe the writers want to use Bucky's character again in the BMoL storyline, maybe now that Bucky is kinda doom in the hunters world, he'll be working with the BMoL against the hunters? IDK, just a thought.

The final scene with Billie offering to get Mary back to heaven was really sad. I felt like Mary really wanted to say yes because she feels so lost, but seeing Sam and Dean reaction made her do the right thing and decline the offer. I was really upset though, that she still not going back home with Sam and Dean, I just don't get why she need more time for? the only thing I can think about is maybe the writers are building a storyline where Mary is so guilt stricken about what happened to John and feel so strongly about her boys being hunters that she's trying to "fix" things in a supernatural way. Like, maybe she's trying to find a supernatural way to get back in time and change things, maybe this is why she was looking for Asa and is going through John's journal, trying to find something or someone to help her "fix" things. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by goldy

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I was glad to see Mary again, but I have to say; I hate what the writers are doing to her character! I mean, I get that she need space and that being dead for 33 years and then coming back is overwhelming to say the least, but I can't see her side of things when I see how hurt Dean is. I just can't!!! and I hate that the writers are making me not like Mary. I keep asking myself; where are they're going with this? Do they make us (the fans) dislike Mary now so that we wont get use to her being around later in the season? Or is there a bigger picture here?

I think Mary is supposed to come across as sympathetic. Sam is all understanding of her every move, she got the "mean" mother reaming her out over something that isn`t her fault really and the confrontation with Dean was played with her coming across as somewhat victimized by his attitude.

The problem is IMO the writers playing her as a bit too self-centered here without meaning to. Any attempt of an emotional connection whatsoever so far has come from the side of her sons. Mary has not asked either of them really a single question about their lives, she has made zero attempt to get to know them as people And here she tells them how she needed all this time to look up on past things. She clearly read the journal which has personal tidibits about them growing up but zilch of an acknowledgment. She made the effort to drive down to Canada for someone she met once. It`s like anyone warrants an effort or interest but her sons. She speaks gently and gives them wounded looks but all they`ve heard so far on a deeper level is how she needs time away from them and they are not cutting it for her.

If this was the depiction of a romantic relationship it would look like one part is doing all the woo-ing and the other is playing insanely hard to get. At a certain point, that just looks too one-sided and exhausting. I actually get that it is hard for her but it is hard for them too and so far the brothers have put in 95 % of the effort into making a relationship. I guess the scene with Mary telling Billie no was supposed to be a step into making it more of a two-way-street but the dynamic seriously needs a change-up in the episodes she is gonna be in next. I know they said she isn`t just gonna be their "Mommy" but there has to be a middle ground between actually playing a mother and playing Mrs. Me. 

Purpose-wise I fear they really have no idea. She was a cliffhanger in the Season 11 Finale and now they don`t know where to go with it. Is the point really gonna be "wow, that was a frigging disappointment" when all is said and done? . 

[bearcatfan]

53 minutes ago, goldy said:

The final scene with Billie offering to get Mary back to heaven was really sad. I felt like Mary really wanted to say yes because she feels so lost, but seeing Sam and Dean reaction made her do the right thing and decline the offer.

That was my take too. She was tempted, but saw the despair on their faces and said no.

I guess I'm in the minority in that I am very sympathetic to Mary. I hate that Dean is hurt by this, but I get her position. I really do. I do believe she loves them, but she feels that she needs to get herself together first before she can be there for them. She told Jodi that the problem wasn't them. That means the problem is with her. In previous episodes she told Cas to hurt the Vet to get information about Sam, and when she came into Lady GoAway's lair I believe she had real menace in her tone when she told her to get away from her boys.

I just don't understand why it should be so easy for her to get over. I also am not sure it would necessarily be good for Sam and Dean to have her around when she is in this state. It might do more damage to their relationship. Parents sacrifice a lot for their kids but you have to take care of yourself too or you can end up doing real damage to the children.

[goldy]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Mary is supposed to come across as sympathetic. Sam is all understanding of her every move, she got the "mean" mother reaming her out over something that isn`t her fault really and the confrontation with Dean was played with her coming across as somewhat victimized by his attitude.

The problem is IMO the writers playing her as a bit too self-centered here without meaning to. Any attempt of an emotional connection whatsoever so far has come from the side of her sons. Mary has not asked either of them really a single question about their lives, she has made zero attempt to get to know them as people And here she tells them how she needed all this time to look up on past things. She clearly read the journal which has personal tidibits about them growing up but zilch of an acknowledgment. She made the effort to drive down to Canada for someone she met once. It`s like anyone warrants an effort or interest but her sons. She speaks gently and gives them wounded looks but all they`ve heard so far on a deeper level is how she needs time away from them and they are not cutting it for her.

If this was the depiction of a romantic relationship it would look like one part is doing all the woo-ing and the other is playing insanely hard to get. At a certain point, that just looks too one-sided and exhausting. I actually get that it is hard for her but it is hard for them too and so far the brothers have put in 95 % of the effort into making a relationship. I guess the scene with Mary telling Billie no was supposed to be a step into making it more of a two-way-street but the dynamic seriously needs a change-up in the episodes she is gonna be in next. I know they said she isn`t just gonna be their "Mommy" but there has to be a middle ground between actually playing a mother and playing Mrs. Me. 

Purpose-wise I fear they really have no idea. She was a cliffhanger in the Season 11 Finale and now they don`t know where to go with it. Is the point really gonna be "wow, that was a frigging disappointment" when all is said and done? . 

I don't know. I wasn't sympathetic to her (and from what I've seen of fans reaction, I know that a lot of fans felt the same) and I actually like Mary. 

The fact that Sam is understanding doesn't mean that we should automaticly agree with him. I know I dont. And btw, I don't think that Sam is on anyone side, I feel like he is in a unique position where he can sympathize with both Mary and Dean because like Mary, he also hated being a hunter and always ran away from it, but as Mary's son, he can also sympathize with Dean wanting to have his mother back and not wanting to lose her again.

Asa's mother was drunk, I didn't take her seriously. And I didn't feel like Mary was played to be victimized by Dean's attitude because, as I said, I actually got what Dean was saying and I understand why he's hurt. I feel like this was actually emphsis by the writers when they made Sam tell Mary about Dean being afraid to lose her again.

I do agree though, that the writers may have no idea what to do about Mary post cliffhanger. Which is sad because Mary could be an amazing character IMHO. 

 

18 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

That was my take too. She was tempted, but saw the despair on their faces and said no.

I guess I'm in the minority in that I am very sympathetic to Mary. I hate that Dean is hurt by this, but I get her position. I really do. I do believe she loves them, but she feels that she needs to get herself together first before she can be there for them. She told Jodi that the problem wasn't them. That means the problem is with her. In previous episodes she told Cas to hurt the Vet to get information about Sam, and when she came into Lady GoAway's lair I believe she had real menace in her tone when she told her to get away from her boys.

I just don't understand why it should be so easy for her to get over. I also am not sure it would necessarily be good for Sam and Dean to have her around when she is in this state. It might do more damage to their relationship. Parents sacrifice a lot for their kids but you have to take care of yourself too or you can end up doing real damage to the children.

I do get what she's going through I'm not totally heartless, and I still love her as a character and feel like she is a good person, but I also see Dean's POV, her not calling them but driving all the way to Canada for a stranger got to him, and at this point I felt sympathy for him.

I guess there's no right and wrong in the situation, both Dean and Mary are right to feel and act the way they do. My main frustration in this episode was the feeling I got that the writers doesn't really know what to do with Mary anymore and are just looking for excuses for her to leave.  

[bearcatfan]

8 minutes ago, goldy said:

I guess there's no right and wrong in the situation, both Dean and Mary are right to feel and act the way they do.

Exactly. I'm not sure why one has to be right and one wrong. I feel like people are taking sides here but there really shouldn't be any sides. Mary is doing what she feels is right for herself AND her boys. Dean has a right to be hurt. If Mary was being completely selfish, she would have taken Billie up on her offer without a second thought. The fact that she didn't when she saw how hurt her sons would be tells me that she does care about them. She just can't deal with everything in the way that they would like. I think Dean is better now that he knows Mary plans on coming back. She likely thought that was an obvious conclusion, but didn't know Dean well enough to realize that he wouldn't think that was an obvious conclusion.