S03.E09: Who's Dead?

[love2lovebadtv]

1 hour ago, dr pepper said:

I was disappointed that Analise did not actually destroy the immunity idol, i'm sure someone will dig it out of the ashes and claim a free A. That's how this class works, right?

She was drunk. By the way, that's how the fire started, right? The alcohol fell into the fireplace and exploded? 

[J.D.]

9 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

She was drunk. By the way, that's how the fire started, right? The alcohol fell into the fireplace and exploded? 

That's my guess.... or Nate threw it in the fire.

[starri]

I guess we should have realized it was Wes just by virtue of the fact that his death is truly the one that gives the show the most dramatic possibilities.  It totally works for me, except that it really cuts off any story for Laurel save a role as the grieving widow.  And as far as it being Connor, the only motive he'd have had was thinking Wes was going to rat them all out, and there was no way he could have known that because A) he didn't have his phone, and B) Annalise didn't give anyone details of why she flashed the Keating Symbol.

I am so glad it looks like Oliver is going to figure out Sam's death.  That's been unspoken for too long, and if he's going to be fully a Scooby, he needed to be let in.  And on a personal level, if it helps heal his fucked-up but ultimately good relationship, so much the better.

I knew, I KNEW there was some sexual dimension to Annalise's relationship with Bonnie.

[Kira53]

7 hours ago, jvr said:

But if Nate killed Wes, why did he need to go to the hospital to confirm how he died? He would have already known.

Very good ep, I was anxious till the end. At one point I was like Nate is gonna die! Then I was like we haven't seen Wes or Nate yet (I forgot about Conner). The minute Wes listened to that voicemail from Anna I knew he was a goner but I still didn't believe it till we saw Nats face in the morgue. I'm happy with this death, he acted like everything was Anna's fault and his hands were clean.

Nate would be covering his ass. That would be excellent misdirection for any investigation. That is also a great way to trick the audience!

 I think this is a very worthwhile theory that Nate killed Wes.  He had the means, opportunity, and motive.  Well done.  I'm calling it.  When he met Wes in the house he killed him to protect Analise.  I was sure Wes was going to take the immunity.  Maybe Wes has agreed to immunity with a plan to send them back to rewrite it and hope to sneak out and disappear.  I'm looking forward to the rest of the season and learning more about Wes.  Who knows; we might even see him next season.  

Great episode.  

[FormerMod-a1]

I wonder if Bonnie had Frank start the fire.  And if so, now he'll think he killed Wes, although hopefully the fact he was killed first should come to light soon enough.  Then again, maybe he did the whole thing - killed Wes and then started the fire.  I'm pretty sure there was no fire in the fireplace when Nate walked through, so I don't think that's the cause, unless it was relit.

I thought Connor's look was that of shock, and not a non-reaction.  

[Neurochick]

9 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Really, I shouldn't be surprised. In all 3 seasons, the mid-season finale has had Wes at the center of things - killing Sam in season 1, shooting Annalise in season 2 and now dying in season 3 (leave it to Wes-lol) I'm trying to be upbeat right now, because I'm gonna miss this character like crazy.

Even though Wes is dead now, the entire third season will be about him.  I never quite warmed up to him and was glad Laurel brought up his stupid Rebecca obsession.  When you think about it, Wes was the cause of a lot of the shit that happened; he killed Sam because of Rebecca (ugh) and I could never, ever get why he was attracted to her.

I knew it wasn't Nate because in a previous episode they said "an unidentified" male was dead.  If had been Nate, they would have said so in the beginning, since Nate was a detective, and since he could not have been so disfigured that Annalise didn't recognize him.  I assume that Laurel saw Wes dead, which was why she wrote his name down; but we never saw Nate leave Annalise's house.  Did he kill Wes to protect Annalise?  No matter what Annalise does, all these folks keep coming back to her.

I wonder though if the show made a mistake by killing Wes off.  Sometimes killing a major character can work (24) and sometimes it can kill the series (Boardwalk Empire).  When it happened at the end of the first season of 24, people were like, "damn that was bold," but when it happened at the end of the second season of Boardwalk Empire, the show never recovered (IMO).  And when it happened at the end of the third season of Black Sails, people were pissed, but the showrunners knew they would end the show with season four, so...not so bad. 

Oh well, only time will tell.

ETA, the fire.  I've been thinking about that.  When Annalise left the house, the door was open.  When Nate came in, the door was open, but when Laurel came in, it was closed.  Also, we only saw Wes leave the police station, but we didn't see him at Annalise's house; also we didn't see Nate leave her house, and what did Nate see when he walked into that room?

Yes, I'll be back after the break, at least for the rest of this season.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Neurochick

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

And when it happened at the end of the third season of Black Sails, people were pissed, but the showrunners knew they would end the show with season four, so...not so bad. 

Yeah it's like Bates Motel killing off a major character this season. Some were upset and feel like they can't enjoy the show the same way but the showrunners had always said they would only have 5 seasons, so next year is the last one anyway. Speaking of Bates Motel, kudos to that show and this one for being bold in killing off major characters. But in the former's case, people always knew that death was going to happen at some point. Poor Wes really was a shock to many people, especially judging by the Twitter reaction after the episode aired. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[sking24450]

Seriously, how does this even work though.  I know that these guys have done bad things but this death just seems like it would run almost too deep for me to believe that these guys are just going to be worrying about grades and classes in the second half of the season.  I mean if Laurel is actually pregnant with his baby what is the story for her?  I almost feel like it was a bit too dark, all the other murders have been people peripheral to the group and the story and it was about watching these people twist out of the fucked up things they did, now though they will be dealing with the death of someone they knew and in some cases loved.

I am interested in how the show moves on, not because I think the show can't go on without the character of Wes but in this moment I can't see the structure of the show remaining the same.  We'll see.  

[Primetimer]

All it took was a devastating trauma!

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[SoapDoc]

Quote

She was drunk. By the way, that's how the fire started, right? The alcohol fell into the fireplace and exploded? 

No. She had moved the vodka bottle to in front of the fireplace before she left. Then when Nate entered the house, the fire was out and the bottle was still upright. It appears that the fire was not caused by anything Annalise did while she was destroying evidence. 

I do like that they went big and killed a major character, as noted above by Neurochick, that action can make or break a show. I loved when they did it on 24. Here I think it provides a lot of story for the other characters. I also think Wes had driven so much story already that there was little new to learn about him. So I am fine with it being him. This was a really good episode.

The show comes back on my birthday so Happy Birthday to me!

[Grace19]

7 hours ago, loki567 said:

Man. I think Wes' death hits so hard because you think about his three years on the show and how brutal his entire history was. His mother literally killed herself to protect him which inadvertently sends him into Annalise's arms which leads to a dead girlfriend and a generally miserable experience until his death.

And now the Mahoney storyline can gain even more weight if they did end up killing him as there's something brutally realistic about a rich, white family completely destroying a poor, black family.

I hope Laurel goes on the warpath.

This is why I'm so mad they killed Wes, it was all for shock value. I don't even think the writers really thought about the massage its sending that in a story where characters like Frank and Bonnie gets away with murder, a character like Wes who have been through so much was killed off and wasted like that. I would not have been this pissed if we didn't explore his back story with his mother. And I don't get it when people blame Wes for killing Annalise's husband, it was an accident that happened because he was protecting a girl from a murderer. Rebeca annoyed me as much as anyone, but at the end of the day, a young girl was murdered and it dose not make Wes a bad guy that deserves to be killed for caring about what happened to her. 
 

[Joimiaroxeu]

I don't like the way they tried to draw a parallel between Frank and Ted Bundy. After the stuff he's done, Frank should have offed himself, IMO. And while I don't believe in the death penalty, the Earth kept spinning just fine after Bundy was executed.

Mary J looked great. Her character's conversation with Annalise was a bit meta given her real life circumstances.

So Michaela was taken in by some adoption/foster care scammers. That explains a whole lot about her to me. I no longer think she's a golddigger (at least not a conscious one) but I can understand why she would've been. She apparently grew up thinking she only had a monetary value. She's fortunate she was able to escape that mess without turning out like some of her siblings.

That was brave of them to kill off Wes. Of all the K5 gang he was the most like Annalise's child. Plus he was sort of the heart of the show. I think this could have way more repercussions plotwise than if they'd killed Frank or Nate. Sorry to see him go though.

I don't think anyone murdered Wes. I think he killed himself.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Joimiaroxeu

[NodakFan]

4 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I don't like the way they tried to draw a parallel between Frank and Ted Bundy. After the stuff he's done, Frank should have offed himself, IMO. And while I don't believe in the death penalty, the Earth kept spinning just fine after Bundy was executed.

I thought it was interesting though that Laurel, Mikayla, Asher, and Connor's schpiels all seemed to reflect them in a way though.  I particularly remember Connor talking about a cool exterior while inside the guy was a ball of pain, and Asher about giving people second chances.  I thought it was more an insight into how the Keating 4 (womp womp) see themselves then a comparison between Frank and Bundy. 

[Neurochick]

4 minutes ago, Grace19 said:

This is why I'm so mad they killed Wes, it was all for shock value. I don't even think the writers really thought about the massage its sending that in a story where characters like Frank and Bonnie gets away with murder, a character like Wes who have been through so much was killed off and wasted like that. I would not have been this pissed if we didn't explore his back story with his mother. And I don't get it when people blame Wes for killing Annalise's husband, it was an accident that happened because he was protecting a girl from a murderer. Rebeca annoyed me as much as anyone, but at the end of the day, a young girl was murdered and it dose not make Wes a bad guy that deserves to be killed for caring about what happened to her. 

But were it not for Wes' Rebecca obsession, Sam and Rebecca probably would not have been killed.  Wes fought for Rebecca because he was in love with her, because he had some bizarre savior complex, Laurel was right about him then. 

I think the point of the title of this show is that no one really gets away with murder; even if they do legally.  Annalise could have called the police when she knew Wes killed Sam, but she didn't.  Wes could have turned himself in, could have said that Sam was going to hurt Rebecca, but he didn't.  Asher ran over that DA, but called Bonnie.  It's like all these people think they're doing the right thing, and sometimes you're not sure if they are or they aren't. 

Who killed Sam?  Wes.  Who shot Annalise?  Wes.  Who is Christophe?  Wes.   Who is under the sheet?  Wes.

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

I don't think anyone murdered Wes. I think he killed himself.

Which if true, would make his death and whole story even more depressing and tragic. They certainly planted some seeds with his whole argument with Laurel about wanting to fix him, there was his whole psych ward hold last season and ironically his mother killed herself because she thought it would be for the best and free him.

So I can see Wes, after realizing the police was closing in on Annalise, believing that all this started with his obsession with Rebecca thinking that somehow he'd free everyone. I don't know how that would work though unless he left a suicide note admitting to killing Sam and Rebecca because she knew he killed Sam. Seems like a bit of stretch but I guess it could work if they sell it as he really believed he was helping everyone and fixing a mess he created. 

Quote

I don't even think the writers really thought about the massage its sending that in a story where characters like Frank and Bonnie gets away with murder, a character like Wes who have been through so much was killed off and wasted like that. 

While one of the things I do like about this show is that all of these people are flawed in some way, I will say that one reason I've been slightly bothered by the cheering of a possible Laurel and Frank recoupling and god forbid, raising a kid together that is likely Wes', is because of the fact that no matter how sad and sorry and pathetic they made him this season, Frank did murder a young woman in cold blood. It doesn't get colder than staring someone dead in the eye as you choke the life out of them. And Bonnie similarly just coldly killed Rebecca. 

Yes Wes was annoying in his blind devotion to Rebecca and I hated his hypocrisy when he would get all judgmental but be fine with Nate being set up for Sam's murder, knowing it was him. But despite all that, he did kill Sam in the heat of a moment when Sam was trying to choke Rebecca to death versus Bonnie and Frank who just cold bloodily murdered people. Hell Asher was more fucked up than Wes when he just backed his car over Sinclair because she told him his daddy was an awful human being who deserved what he got.  Of course Wes did shoot Annalise but hey, she asked him to. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Aquarius97]

I've been thinking for days what would happen when Wes knew about Rebecca's death.

For me it's really obvious that the knowledge of Rebecca's death led him to betray Annalise and consequently led to his death

[lulee]

To whomever commented on appearances, Brett Butler is 7 years older than Viola Davis and 6 years older than Famke Janssen (according to IMDb ages), but she was certainly made to look rougher than in real life. 

[dgpolo]

8 minutes ago, Aquarius97 said:

For me it's really obvious that the knowledge of Rebecca's death led him to betray Annalise and consequently led to his death

Wes was still in the early stages of making a deal with the cops, he hadn't told them anything so far and wouldn't until he got immunity and he left before that so he is not the snitch.

21 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

And while I don't believe in the death penalty, the Earth kept spinning just fine after Bundy was executed.

I was just kind of squicked that everyone passed their tests by getting Bundy off the death penalty. And also, how was it fair that everyone got to listen to each others arguments, if someone came up with your argument and got to speak before you do you have to change yours? if someone comes up with something better can you change yours to be similar? or did they write them all down first and then spoke in class?

Edited November 18, 2016 by dgpolo
to add more

[Grace19]

Another thing; the show made oliver a regular just to kill off Wes and replace him with him. If they make Annalise start caring for him as a son, I will break something. To think we still have to deal with useless Nate and annoying Oliver, while Wes is dead.

I hope the show doesn't go there with Michaela/Laurel, I once thought of the possibility, but no, I love Michaela/Asher

Annalise/Bonnie, thought about it before, but big no.

I can't wait to find out who killed Wes, I don't think its going to be suicide, making his death a murder, gives them more story.

At least my baby Michaela is alive and I can't wait to get more of her back story. If Michaela was the one who was murdered, I would not have watched an extra episode, the same why I never watched an extra episode after detective Carter was killed off on person of interest.
 

[SimoneS]

On 11/18/2016 at 10:11 AM, Neurochick said:

But were it not for Wes' Rebecca obsession, Sam and Rebecca probably would not have been killed.  Wes fought for Rebecca because he was in love with her, because he had some bizarre savior complex, Laurel was right about him then. 

Rebecca was innocent so Wes right to fight for her even if it was because he loved her. Wes killed Sam, but Sam set those chain of events in motion. Rebecca's death is Bonnie and no one else. Not that any of this matters any more. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by SimoneS

[Grace19]

13 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

But were it not for Wes' Rebecca obsession, Sam and Rebecca probably would not have been killed

Being obsessed with someone is not a crime, and Rebeca was being framed for murder. No, Wes' obsession, did not get Rebeca and Sam killed. Bonnie killed her to shut her up and Sam got what he deserved. I might be remembering this wrong, but I thought they wanted to turn themselves in, but Annalise convinced them not to, that she would protect them.
 

[Aquarius97]

3 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Wes was still in the early stages of making a deal with the cops, he hadn't told them anything so far and wouldn't until he got immunity and he left before that so he is not the snitch.

When he was told about Rebecca's death he hadn't talked about a deal with cops. He was called by the cops because they found his girlfriend's body in the woods. In Wes lawyer's words, in that moment the cops offered Wes inmunity for helping them to find Rebecca's murderer.

[dgpolo]

2 minutes ago, Aquarius97 said:

In Wes lawyer's words, in that moment the cops offered Wes inmunity for helping them to find Rebecca's murderer.

Which he rejected by slashing out parts of it and asking for other things.

[sking24450]

28 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

But were it not for Wes' Rebecca obsession, Sam and Rebecca probably would not have been killed.  Wes fought for Rebecca because he was in love with her, because he had some bizarre savior complex, Laurel was right about him then. 

I think the point of the title of this show is that no one really gets away with murder; even if they do legally.  Annalise could have called the police when she knew Wes killed Sam, but she didn't.  Wes could have turned himself in, could have said that Sam was going to hurt Rebecca, but he didn't.  Asher ran over that DA, but called Bonnie.  It's like all these people think they're doing the right thing, and sometimes you're not sure if they are or they aren't. 

Who killed Sam?  Wes.  Who shot Annalise?  Wes.  Who is Christophe?  Wes.   Who is under the sheet?  Wes.

If it were not for Sam killing an innocent person Sam and Rebecca would not be killed.  It is not Wes' fault that Bonnie decided to kill Rebecca.  Additionally, what exactly did Wes' obsession force anyone to do?  He didn't force Annalise to take the case and he certainly didn't force Annalise to continue on with the case when she realized that her husband was a suspect.  It always seemed that Wes' biggest flaw was that he was so desperate for figuring out the truth.  He knew something was up and he questioned things.  

I understand people hate Rebecca but she would have ended up in jail for the rest of her life for something Sam did.  I never faulted her trying to figure out what had happened.  She would have been a fool to trust Annalise and I applaud every character that doesn't blindly follow Annalise because she is not a good guide.  She went to Nate as a former detective and he should have probably taken her to the police but he had other interests.  She was annoying and abrasive but she wasn't all that wrong in her motivation in trying to figure out who really killed Lila.

I do like your point about the title maybe indicating that they no one gets away with murder.  It's a fair point.  I do wonder who they will blame for their lives being a mess now that Wes has paid for his murder because unless the show ends soon they will be in something else soon enough.

6 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Which he rejected by slashing out parts of it and asking for other things.

And then he snuck out of the station, avoiding the cops and Nate.  Wes didn't snitch on anyone.  I think this ties into how they found Rebecca's body and why they would assume that Annalise had murdered the girl.

Edited November 18, 2016 by sking24450

[Aquarius97]

4 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Which he rejected by slashing out parts of it and asking for other things.

He just asked for blanket immunity to talk, and then he receives the call from Annalise

[JaggedLilPill]

3 minutes ago, sking24450 said:

If it were not for Sam killing an innocent person Sam and Rebecca would not be killed.  It is not Wes' fault that Bonnie decided to kill Rebecca.  Additionally, what exactly did Wes' obsession force anyone to do?  He didn't force Annalise to take the case and he certainly didn't force Annalise to continue on with the case when she realized that her husband was a suspect.  It always seemed that Wes' biggest flaw was that he was so desperate for figuring out the truth.  He knew something was up and he questioned things.  

I understand people hate Rebecca but she would have ended up in jail for the rest of her life for something Sam did.  I never faulted her trying to figure out what had happened.  She would have been a fool to trust Annalise and I applaud every character that doesn't blindly follow Annalise because she is not a good guide.  She went to Nate as a former detective and he should have probably taken her to the police but he had other interests.  She was annoying and abrasive but she wasn't all that wrong in her motivation in trying to figure out who really killed Lila.

I do like your point about the title maybe indicating that they no one gets away with murder.  It's a fair point.  I do wonder who they will blame for their lives being a mess now that Wes has paid for his murder because unless the show ends soon they will be in something else soon enough.

This.

Sam put all of this into motion by having Frank off his lover because she was pregnant. Well, sorry, Sam, but someone having the potential to inconvenience your life is not a reason for them to be killed. Asshole. 

If Sam hadn't sent Frank to kill Lila, Rebecca would not have been a suspect, hence no need for Annaliese to defend her or for the K5 to get caught up in anything.

Simple. 

[love2lovebadtv]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Even though Wes is dead now, the entire third season will be about him.  I never quite warmed up to him and was glad Laurel brought up his stupid Rebecca obsession.  When you think about it, Wes was the cause of a lot of the shit that happened; he killed Sam because of Rebecca (ugh) and I could never, ever get why he was attracted to her.

I knew it wasn't Nate because in a previous episode they said "an unidentified" male was dead.  If had been Nate, they would have said so in the beginning, since Nate was a detective, and since he could not have been so disfigured that Annalise didn't recognize him.  I assume that Laurel saw Wes dead, which was why she wrote his name down; but we never saw Nate leave Annalise's house.  Did he kill Wes to protect Annalise?  No matter what Annalise does, all these folks keep coming back to her.

I wonder though if the show made a mistake by killing Wes off.  Sometimes killing a major character can work (24) and sometimes it can kill the series (Boardwalk Empire).  When it happened at the end of the first season of 24, people were like, "damn that was bold," but when it happened at the end of the second season of Boardwalk Empire, the show never recovered (IMO).  And when it happened at the end of the third season of Black Sails, people were pissed, but the showrunners knew they would end the show with season four, so...not so bad. 

Oh well, only time will tell.

ETA, the fire.  I've been thinking about that.  When Annalise left the house, the door was open.  When Nate came in, the door was open, but when Laurel came in, it was closed.  Also, we only saw Wes leave the police station, but we didn't see him at Annalise's house; also we didn't see Nate leave her house, and what did Nate see when he walked into that room?

Yes, I'll be back after the break, at least for the rest of this season.

Ok, slow down. Lemme process this lol.

Your theory would explain Nate's motive for killing Wes (whom I love, by the way). And that would explain why Nate was sneaking around Wes' interrogation/interview. He realized Wes was about to spill his guts and killed him to protect Annalise. But did Nate know that Wes would be at the house? 

Why did Annalise call everyone to her house? And then she left to meet Oliver, right? I was tired. Can't remember what that was all about. Where was Frank during all this? 

I said I was going to stop watching this show, but I guess I'll be back after the break for answers, surely to be followed by more questions. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by love2lovebadtv

[Neurochick]

8 hours ago, loki567 said:

Man. I think Wes' death hits so hard because you think about his three years on the show and how brutal his entire history was. His mother literally killed herself to protect him which inadvertently sends him into Annalise's arms which leads to a dead girlfriend and a generally miserable experience until his death. 

And now the Mahoney storyline can gain even more weight if they did end up killing him as there's something brutally realistic about a rich, white family completely destroying a poor, black family. 

I hope Laurel goes on the warpath. 

I think this is an interesting comment.  The thing is, I want to see POC on TV, black people on TV; but I don't want their characters reduced to "magical" people.  I don't want them reduced to side-kicks because if you have them do a, b, or c, it sends the wrong message.  If you do that, then you're limiting what a POC can do and can't do on a show, how they can and can't be written.   POC should be able to portray killers and victims and everything in between.

The tragedy of Wes is that Annalise, who tried so hard to protect him, might have caused his death, when she took him from the wait-list, she had no idea Sam had gotten Frank to kill Lila.

Maybe the real root of all this insanity and the common denominator was Sam.  I believe that Annalise, Frank and Bonnie were all patients/clients of Sam's.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Neurochick

[love2lovebadtv]

3 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

This.

Sam put all of this into motion by having Frank off his lover because she was pregnant. Well, sorry, Sam, but someone having the potential to inconvenience your life is not a reason for them to be killed. Asshole. 

If Sam hadn't sent Frank to kill Lila, Rebecca would not have been a suspect, hence no need for Annaliese to defend her or for the K5 to get caught up in anything.

Simple. 

 

1 hour ago, sking24450 said:

Seriously, how does this even work though.  I know that these guys have done bad things but this death just seems like it would run almost too deep for me to believe that these guys are just going to be worrying about grades and classes in the second half of the season.  I mean if Laurel is actually pregnant with his baby what is the story for her?  I almost feel like it was a bit too dark, all the other murders have been people peripheral to the group and the story and it was about watching these people twist out of the fucked up things they did, now though they will be dealing with the death of someone they knew and in some cases loved.

I am interested in how the show moves on, not because I think the show can't go on without the character of Wes but in this moment I can't see the structure of the show remaining the same.  We'll see.  

This episode was very dark, even for this show, because Wes was a main character. I suspect the next go-round will consist of flashbacks in which we piece together who killed him, Analise gets out of jail, etc. 

[love2lovebadtv]

4 hours ago, J.D. said:

That's my guess.... or Nate threw it in the fire.

Any chance Frank was around, since we don't actually know where he was when this took place? I mean we had no idea (well, I had no idea) who had killed Lila since that wasn't revealed until the show wanted to reveal it. So it could very well have been Frank who set this fire and then we find out after the fact via flashback. 

[love2lovebadtv]

17 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

This.

Sam put all of this into motion by having Frank off his lover because she was pregnant. Well, sorry, Sam, but someone having the potential to inconvenience your life is not a reason for them to be killed. Asshole. 

If Sam hadn't sent Frank to kill Lila, Rebecca would not have been a suspect, hence no need for Annaliese to defend her or for the K5 to get caught up in anything.

Simple. 

Yes, it all started with Sam. He had a history of abusing his position. He did it with Bonnie, Annalise, Frank, Lila, and who knows how many others. As a professor and therapist, he had no business interacting with these people on such a personal level (including Annalise) and especially patients who relied on him to get better. I mean, you tell a patient who was sexually abused that you pursued her because you knew she'd be easy? You rescue Frank from life in jail to have him kill for you? He was a gross individual.  He set this whole thing in motion. 

[Aquarius97]

By the other way, Wes is called by Annalise around 4:30 PM, while being in NY, and Laurel enters in the house at 10:12 PM. We have almost 6 hours missing between Wes leaving police office and the fire. Nate was also in NY at 4:30 PM, so neither of them could be back in Philly before 6 PM.

Anyway, we can be really surprised because we don't know yet when did Wes died, so now everyone is suspect until a time of death is given

[love2lovebadtv]

46 minutes ago, Grace19 said:

Another thing; the show made oliver a regular just to kill off Wes and replace him with him. If they make Annalise start caring for him as a son, I will break something. To think we still have to deal with useless Nate and annoying Oliver, while Wes is dead.

I hope the show doesn't go there with Michaela/Laurel, I once thought of the possibility, but no, I love Michaela/Asher

Annalise/Bonnie, thought about it before, but big no.

I can't wait to find out who killed Wes, I don't think its going to be suicide, making his death a murder, gives them more story.

At least my baby Michaela is alive and I can't wait to get more of her back story. If Michaela was the one who was murdered, I would not have watched an extra episode, the same why I never watched an extra episode after detective Carter was killed off on person of interest.
 

I liked Oliver but I agree he's a little annoying now and his back & forth with Connor and the two of them on Humper has gotten old. However, I am interested to know how he pieced together the bonfire and Sam's murder. What exactly did Connor say to him that tipped him off? I must have missed something. Or did it make sense for him to figure out based on the day of bonfire/the day that Connor moved in/the fact that Sam was found shortly after that those events are connected?

Also agree that Nate is useless. I mean, why did he remain involved with Annalise for so long? And of all the women he could have slept with, why Annalise's stalker? I mean, does she have that much pull in the DA's office that she can get Nate a job as an investigator, knowing that he has personal history with Annalise and with the DA's office?  And he's still sneaking around, getting into things that don't concern him. 

Suicide would fit his life situation. Even though he tried hard to make things better, in his situation I could see having a bad moment and feeling hopeless. But that would not make for such a great story. It would be more interesting to see who killed him.  

Annalise and Bonnie - please no more kissing or anything of the sort! As if there aren't already enough awkward, inappropriate, incestuous relationships on this show...sheesh!

[Aquarius97]

9 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

What exactly did Connor say to him that tipped him off? I must have missed something. Or did it make sense for him to figure out based on the day of bonfire/the day that Connor moved in/the fact that Sam was found shortly after that those events are connected?

 

Connor told him that he wasn't high the bonfire day, he was traumatized

[JaggedLilPill]

9 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

What exactly did Connor say to him that tipped him off? I must have missed something.

Oliver asked Connor if it was a good idea that Connor was drinking because he remembered Connor showing up on his doorstep claiming he had a drug problem.

Connor laughed and said it was cute that Oliver bought that and then clarified he "wasn't high. I was traumatized."

I assume Oliver remembered the date and put two and two together.

[love2lovebadtv]

46 minutes ago, sking24450 said:

If it were not for Sam killing an innocent person Sam and Rebecca would not be killed.  It is not Wes' fault that Bonnie decided to kill Rebecca.  Additionally, what exactly did Wes' obsession force anyone to do?  He didn't force Annalise to take the case and he certainly didn't force Annalise to continue on with the case when she realized that her husband was a suspect.  It always seemed that Wes' biggest flaw was that he was so desperate for figuring out the truth.  He knew something was up and he questioned things.  

I understand people hate Rebecca but she would have ended up in jail for the rest of her life for something Sam did.  I never faulted her trying to figure out what had happened.  She would have been a fool to trust Annalise and I applaud every character that doesn't blindly follow Annalise because she is not a good guide.  She went to Nate as a former detective and he should have probably taken her to the police but he had other interests.  She was annoying and abrasive but she wasn't all that wrong in her motivation in trying to figure out who really killed Lila.

I do like your point about the title maybe indicating that they no one gets away with murder.  It's a fair point.  I do wonder who they will blame for their lives being a mess now that Wes has paid for his murder because unless the show ends soon they will be in something else soon enough.

And then he snuck out of the station, avoiding the cops and Nate.  Wes didn't snitch on anyone.  I think this ties into how they found Rebecca's body and why they would assume that Annalise had murdered the girl.

I didn't like Rebecca at all and I couldn't stand that she and Wes were together. But she was a victim, too, even before she was killed. Rebecca had no reason to trust Annalise or even Wes, so I get that. Plus, her demeanor was on point for the kind of life she had lived.

Can someone refresh my memory? Annalise told Wes that Bonnie killed Rebecca, right? So now I'm thinking if the interrogation was really something to throw us off. Like maybe they started asking about Annalise but the "she" Wes mentioned helping them take down was really Bonnie. Like maybe he wanted to get back at Bonnie for killing Rebecca. Perhaps when we see more flashbacks, we will hear more of what went down in that interrogation. 

[Aquarius97]

4 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I didn't like Rebecca at all and I couldn't stand that she and Wes were together. But she was a victim, too, even before she was killed. Rebecca had no reason to trust Annalise or even Wes, so I get that. Plus, her demeanor was on point for the kind of life she had lived.

Can someone refresh my memory? Annalise told Wes that Bonnie killed Rebecca, right? So now I'm thinking if the interrogation was really something to throw us off. Like maybe they started asking about Annalise but the "she" Wes mentioned helping them take down was really Bonnie. Like maybe he wanted to get back at Bonnie for killing Rebecca. Perhaps when we see more flashbacks, we will hear more of what went down in that interrogation. 

Annalise told Wes that Rebecca was death in 2x09 so Wes would shot her. Nothing about Bonnie. I guess Wes understood that it was not true, a lie from Annalise to get shot from anyone

Edited November 18, 2016 by Aquarius97

[dgpolo]

You know, phones were really featured heavily in this episode. Annalise calls Wes (we're sure of this? there was no jiggery-pokery that would allow someone else to send the message?) and she messages the rest of the K-5, she calls Oliver and goes to where he is. Wes listen's to the message on his phone and leaves, Connor's phone is stuffed in the cushions at Michaela's, Laurel gets the message to go to Annalise's, Frank calls Bonnie. Annalise gives her phone to Oliver to be wiped and it's brought back to be planted under the ambulance...

Not sure if it means anything but I thought there were an awful lot of phone related things.

[J.D.]

I'm re-writing the script for Pete Nowalk.  :D

Wes isn't really dead.  Nobody is dead.  Poor Laurel got caught in the crossfire because she was the first to arrive at Annalise's house after Annalise summoned everyone to come there, but nobody is really dead. 

Last we heard Wes was giving the cops info on Annalise.  In order to buy time to build their case against Annalise and place Wes into a witness protection program to keep him safe from Annalise and her hired guns, the cops faked Wes' death.  Nate set the fire to destroy anything incriminating Annalise may have on him or his new DA love interest AND to help validate Wes' fake death.  Again, they didn't expect Laurel to arrive.

Nate went to the morgue to view Wes' body to insure that he's going along with this plan to get Annalise, but, just before we get to see Wes open his eyes and discuss "Where do we go from here" with Nate, cameras cut to another scene and so we -- the audience -- believe Wes is actually dead.  End scene.

Hey, I'm in denial.....work with me here.    :(

[love2lovebadtv]

11 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

Oliver asked Connor if it was a good idea that Connor was drinking because he remembered Connor showing up on his doorstep claiming he had a drug problem.

Connor laughed and said it was cute that Oliver bought that and then clarified he "wasn't high. I was traumatized."

I assume Oliver remembered the date and put two and two together.

I missed the traumatized part. Thank you. Do you think that's enough for Oliver to go digging?

I'm thinking: If your ex says I lied the day I moved in about being an addict because I was traumatized, do you automatically say, Well, he moved in on January 16th, so let me see what crimes or other newsworthy events occurred on that date? Maybe you do if you're involved with the K5 like Oliver is. Or did Oliver already suspect something? 

4 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

You know, phones were really featured heavily in this episode. Annalise calls Wes (we're sure of this? there was no jiggery-pokery that would allow someone else to send the message?) and she messages the rest of the K-5, she calls Oliver and goes to where he is. Wes listen's to the message on his phone and leaves, Connor's phone is stuffed in the cushions at Michaela's, Laurel gets the message to go to Annalise's, Frank calls Bonnie. Annalise gives her phone to Oliver to be wiped and it's brought back to be planted under the ambulance...

Not sure if it means anything but I thought there were an awful lot of phone related things.

lol @ jiggery-pokery

I did notice a lot more phone involvement than usual. And why did Annalise call them all over to her house? I guess we have to wait to find out. 

2 minutes ago, J.D. said:

I'm re-writing the script for Pete Nowalk.  :D

Wes isn't really dead.  Nobody is dead.  Poor Laurel got caught in the crossfire because she was the first to arrive at Annalise's house after Annalise summoned everyone to come there, but nobody is really dead. 

Last we heard Wes was giving the cops info on Annalise.  In order to buy time to build their case against Annalise and place Wes into a witness protection program to keep him safe from Annalise and her hired guns, the cops faked Wes' death.  Nate set the fire to destroy anything incriminating Annalise may have on him or his new DA love interest AND to help validate Wes' fake death.  Again, they didn't expect Laurel to arrive.

Nate went to the morgue to view Wes' body to insure that he's going along with this plan to get Annalise, but, just before we get to see Wes open his eyes and discuss "Where do we go from here" with Nate, cameras cut to another scene and so we -- the audience -- believe Wes is actually dead.  End scene.

Hey, I'm in denial.....work with me here.    :(

I could be down with your denial plot. I don't want Wes to be dead. 

My only comfort is that we'll see him in the flashbacks. 

[ForeverAlone]

Connor lied about being an addict the morning after Sam was killed, i.e. the night of the bonfire, when he showed up on Oliver's doorstep. Oliver may or may not have remembered the bonfire when Connor dropped his little bomb, but I can see him doing a news search for the prior night to see if there was some hint about what could have traumatized Connor. Seeing that Sam was reported missing the next night, and his body parts subsequently found, I can see that Oliver could connect the two and think that Connor could have played a role in Sam's disappearance. I am very curious to see how all of the stuff raised in this episode plays out in the rest of the season.

[starri]

9 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I missed the traumatized part. Thank you. Do you think that's enough for Oliver to go digging?

Oliver remembered that Connor showed up the night of the bonfire. The two big scandals (to date) the K5 have been wrapped up in are Sam's murder and the Hapstalls, and he already knows the details about the Hapstalls. 

[truthaboutluv]

41 minutes ago, Aquarius97 said:

By the other way, Wes is called by Annalise around 4:30 PM, while being in NY, and Laurel enters in the house at 10:12 PM. We have almost 6 hours missing between Wes leaving police office and the fire. Nate was also in NY at 4:30 PM, so neither of them could be back in Philly before 6 PM.

Anyway, we can be really surprised because we don't know yet when did Wes died, so now everyone is suspect until a time of death is given

Wes wasn't in NY. He was questioned in Philly. That's why he wondered what the police wanted to talk to him about and when the lawyer said probably the Mahoney case, he wondered why they would do it "here and not in NY". 

Quote

Being obsessed with someone is not a crime, and Rebeca was being framed for murder.

Small correction, Rebecca wasn't being framed. She was arrested because eyewitnesses saw Lila yelling at her and the boyfriend at the frat house before Lila went missing. And later I think an eyewitness did place her at the sorority house. Sam had no reason to frame Rebecca at the start of Lila's murder case because til that point, no one knew he even had a relationship with Lila and no one could place him in Philly (until Nate looked into it of course and realized he never made the speaking engagement at Yale).

Quote

No, Wes' obsession, did not get Rebeca and Sam killed. Bonnie killed her to shut her up and Sam got what he deserved. I might be remembering this wrong, but I thought they wanted to turn themselves in, but Annalise convinced them not to, that she would protect them.

Wes and Rebecca never had any interest in turning themselves in, that was Connor and Michaela. Wes had Rebecca leave the house after the murder because she was still on trial for Lila's murder and then he and the others planned to just run away and hope no one realized they were at the house. However, when he returned for the murder weapon that had his fingerprints all over it, Annalise was there and she came up with the plan to dispose of Sam's body and promised to help him and the others, including Rebecca.

[JaggedLilPill]

14 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I missed the traumatized part. Thank you. Do you think that's enough for Oliver to go digging?

I'm thinking: If your ex says I lied the day I moved in about being an addict because I was traumatized, do you automatically say, Well, he moved in on January 16th, so let me see what crimes or other newsworthy events occurred on that date? Maybe you do if you're involved with the K5 like Oliver is. Or did Oliver already suspect something? 

:) You're welcome.

I think it's a little of both. He knows that the K5 are involved in some bad stuff. Plus, Connor told Oliver back in S2 that he might be going to jail for something, but wouldn't tell Oliver what it was. Oliver did say it was more than about his hacking. 

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised it never crossed Oliver's mind before now. If the person I was dating (seeing that they were still together at the time) told me they could possibly go to jail, I might (at least jokingly) go "Oh what? Did you kill someone?" 

And then there's the fact that Connor applied to Stanford to get away from Annalise. Oliver has to know it's something big. 

[Aquarius97]

4 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Wes wasn't in NY. He was questioned in Philly. That's why he wondered what the police wanted to talk to him about and when the lawyer said probably the Mahoney case, he wondered why they would do it "here and not in NY". 

If i heard it right, they talked about a drive to NY

[helenamonster]

Wow. I knew this show would kill off one of the K5 eventually, but I didn't think it would be this soon and I definitely didn't think it would be Wes. I seem to hold the apparently unpopular opinion of being completely neutral on Wes, but I do think it took major guts for this show to kill him off and look forward to the storylines his death opens up. I'm sorry for Alfie for having to leave, but no one gets into acting for the job stability. He'll be fine.

Like everyone else, I have so many questions about what went down inside the house. Who killed Wes, or did he kill himself? Did he die in the house or somewhere else and was brought there? What is the exact timeline regarding Nate, Wes, and Laurel? Who planted the bomb and who was it meant for? One thing I think we can know for certain: Laurel saw Wes's body. Poor girl.

I won't say I'm thrilled about Wes's death, but I am glad that it frees Laurel up a bit. I didn't like the pairing. I hope she doesn't get back together with Frank and I especially hope they don't raise Wes's kid together. First scene in the first episode after the break better be Laurel's ass walking out of Planned Parenthood with an empty uterus. I do not need to see her hem and haw about her fetus being her last connection to Wes or something similarly cringe-worthy.

Meggy and Laurel crying together made me almost hope they could put aside their differences and become friends through their mutual loss, but then I remembered Meggy blabbing Laurel's personal medical information to Bonnie and Oliver (Laurel still doesn't even know she's pregnant, for God's sake!) and decided I'd rather they didn't.

I loved the scenes with Michaela and Trishelle. I hope Trishelle sticks around for a bit. Their relationship is fascinating.

Oh damn, Oliver's putting five and seven together regarding Sam and Connor. I've been waiting for this blow-up.

Tbh, I wasn't sure Rebecca's body would ever be found. I'm glad that it appears that won't be left as a loose end.

Karla posted a picture on Instagram either yesterday or the day before on set with Alfie, so it appears he will be back to film flashbacks.

7 hours ago, dr pepper said:

I was disappointed that Analise did not actually destroy the immunity idol, i'm sure someone will dig it out of the ashes and claim a free A. That's how this class works, right?

That was how it worked when she was teaching crim law 101, but she doesn't do it for the pro bono clinic (Laurel's automatic A on the midterm was a reward for her loyalty to Annalise). Even when she was teaching crim law, she cared less and less about it, and eventually everyone had to take the midterm.

3 hours ago, sking24450 said:

Seriously, how does this even work though.  I know that these guys have done bad things but this death just seems like it would run almost too deep for me to believe that these guys are just going to be worrying about grades and classes in the second half of the season.  I mean if Laurel is actually pregnant with his baby what is the story for her?  I almost feel like it was a bit too dark, all the other murders have been people peripheral to the group and the story and it was about watching these people twist out of the fucked up things they did, now though they will be dealing with the death of someone they knew and in some cases loved.

I am interested in how the show moves on, not because I think the show can't go on without the character of Wes but in this moment I can't see the structure of the show remaining the same.  We'll see.  

It will change the structure of the show for sure, but not forever. We all lose people close to us over the course of our lives, sometimes in traumatic ways. We take the time to grieve and eventually move on. The same will happen to the K5. Of course this was a murder (we assume; I think suicide is still on the table), and the K5 being the K5, they will investigate (or, gosh, I guess we have to start calling them the K4), but there are still plenty of logical places for this show to go. Their grades will probably start to falter again, and things will be hard for a bit, but eventually their crazy lives will go on.

Edited November 18, 2016 by helenamonster

[dgpolo]

I would think if they were trying to bring Annalise down it would have to be in Philly not NY? Most of her misdeeds took place in Philly? No? Of course then I don't know what the NY cops had to do with anything. It should have been Atwood talking to Wes.

[sking24450]

4 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

I would think if they were trying to bring Annalise down it would have to be in Philly not NY? Most of her misdeeds took place in Philly? No? Of course then I don't know what the NY cops had to do with anything. It should have been Atwood talking to Wes.

Plus, the murder they are questioning her about happened in Philly and I assume the body was buried in Philly.  This is just a function of a show not understanding jurisdiction or anything law related really.  The NY cops would not be interested in the Rebecca murder and they certainly would not be at the disposal of the Philly DA. 

[Aquarius97]

7 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

I would think if they were trying to bring Annalise down it would have to be in Philly not NY? Most of her misdeeds took place in Philly? No? Of course then I don't know what the NY cops had to do with anything. It should have been Atwood talking to Wes.

 

3 minutes ago, sking24450 said:

Plus, the murder they are questioning her about happened in Philly and I assume the body was buried in Philly.  This is just a function of a show not understanding jurisdiction or anything law related really.  The NY cops would not be interested in the Rebecca murder and they certainly would not be at the disposal of the Philly DA. 

You are right guys, I just misunderstood the talk between Wes and his laywer in the station

[nutty1]

I am with those who didn't want Wes to be dead.

I usually watch the show after the fact on TIVO. And I will usually take a peek here, so I am never totally shocked while watching. But last night I watched live. I'm so glad I did. It was unbelievable!!