S03.E08: No More Blood

[LaJefaza]

13 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

Oliver can go fuck himself.  He actually isn't entitled to know every detail of Connor's work life, and his incessant badgering of Connor to tell him everything about said work life has nothing to do with wanting Connor to be open and honest with him and everything to do with wanting to be in the perceived inner circle.  I loved Oliver so much last season, but they have made him into such an unbelievable asshole with this bullshit and the turning down Stanford behind Connor's back and the breaking up with Connor for shit I'm still not clear about.

YES. Thank you. The nerve of him to break up with Connor for...not being angry that he sabotaged him? Did he ever even apologize properly for what he did? Wasn't it all because he didn't want Connor to leave, and then when Connor heard him out and understood his motivations and forgave him, Oliver just dumped him anyway? And now he's run back to Connor after getting rejected and realizing there may not actually be that many fish in the sea that would accept him, and Connor's taken him back... instead of a change in attitude, Oliver's back to being pushy, whiny, demanding? Oliver...boy, BYE.

I STILL think Wes is under the sheet. If the rumors we heard of the cast being devastated when they found out who'd died are true, then I have a hard time thinking they'd be THAT bent out of shape over Billy Brown (Nate). Even Charlie Weber (Frank) is a stretch. I still think it's one of the K5, and my money's still on Alfred Enoch (Wes) . Last week was misdirection.

Edited November 11, 2016 by LaJefaza

[Milaxx]

1 minute ago, LaJefaza said:

If the rumors we heard of the cast being devastated when they found out who'd died are true, then I have a hard time thinking they's be THAT bent out of shape over Nate. Even Frank is a stretch. I still think it's one of the K5, and my money's still on Wes. Last week was misdirection.

The cast was allegedly devastated, not the characters. Frank and Nate might not be a big deal to Annalise or the K5, but Billy & Charles have been with Viola & co since day 1.  Charles in particular has been very involved with the show. If it's Frank, who dies I could understand the cast being upset. It'd be like your favorite coworker suddenly getting fired.

[helenamonster]

Well damn! You know it's a good ending to a show if I have to cover my eyes and curl up in a corner of the couch. There's no love lost between me and Frank, but I didn't want to see him blow his brains out.

I am a little surprised that the "viewer discretion advised" warning was for that scene. It was intense, and I get  the triggering effect it could have on people, but this is also the show that had Asher's dad hanging in his office with rigor mortis already settling in. Less intense, surely, but still. Tbh I spent the whole episode expecting Frank to kill the witness and her daughter. I figured brutal child murder would warrant an advisory, but I'm super happy to be wrong. Anyway, I find viewer discretion warnings outside of the general content warnings to be arbitrary and mostly ineffective (I actually wrote my senior thesis on it) but whatever. Bravo on an intense scene anyway.

I have to join in on the Michaela/Asher love. They are just so cute. Meh at Asher answering her phone, but I can kind of understand it. He was exiled by his own family and would give anything to be welcomed back, so I think he has a hard time understanding why Michaela would willingly disown her family and is trying to find some answers. Michaela will rightfully kick him out for this, but I'm looking forward to seeing her scenes with her mother next week and learning more about her backstory.

Oh, Wes and Laurel. They have charm occasionally but this week something about them was just yucky to me. I love Laurel so much and I'm afraid that her proximity to Wes is going to make her all shmoopy and boring. I am not looking forward to the pregnancy drama in the second half of the season.

Damn, Oliver and Connor are a mess. I think they both have good points about the other person, but at the same time I feel that neither of them have a leg to stand on. I almost wish Connor would tell Oliver everything that was going on just to make him complicit and put them both on even footing again.

As for #UnderTheSheet, we are down to the most obvious suspects. I really think it could go either way. On the one hand, Nate being killed wouldn't have much of an effect on the show at this point so he would be easy to get rid of, but then that takes the drama out of a lot of it. Frank's death would be almost necessary (where does he go from here, honestly?) and would create serious ripple effects. So I'm hoping it's Frank, just because that's much more dramatic.

Laugh-out-loud moments this episode: Asher's devastation over Frank getting rid of his beard, Asher wearing Michaela's bathrobe, and Annalise going to the liquor store to smell the wine. That smash cut to her just standing in front of the shelves was stunning and hilarious at the same time.

9 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

They didn't have sex that we know of--yet. This show likes to do a lot of exposition via flashbacks so perhaps that's a revealing moment we could see in the future.

Whatever, while I wouldn't be surprised I think it's likely not his kid because I think Frank fathered Laurel's baby. I don't see the show suddenly giving him two surprise kids. Frank has been an extraordinarily murderous man and if they're going to keep him around I think the writers have a lot of his mess to clean up before they can reasonably put him in a new daddy role. Or maybe they'll just ship him off to prison...

Unless Laurel lied and they did sleep together this week (which, GIRL!), this seems unlikely.

[Dee]

I'd dig Wes and Laurel a lot more if the writers weren't so intent on having them declare their love for each other right now.

It's way too early in their relationship, even with all the the extenuating circumstances considered, for them to be acting like Oliver and Jenny from Love Story.

They work much better, at least for me, as an Oedipus and Electra Complex tormented version of Nick and Nora Charles.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Dee

[bantering]

1 hour ago, muessigkeit said:

Did Annalise tell him the whole story about how his mother killed herself because Daddy Mahony tried to force her to testify that she saw Young Mahoney when Young Mahoney was actually killing his fiancée? That was how Annalise got entangled with the Mahoneys in the first place, remember? She defended the guy she's now framing.

I'm guessing she did. 

I'm just wondering why Wes doesn't feel more conflicted over lying in general. Maybe the actor is trying to register conflict on his face, but something feels kind of missing from his storyline arc. If I had to do as much lying as Wes has had to do, I'd be in a mental institution right now. I think it's just generally having to cross all these moral lines that I feel would be uncomfortable for a normal person.  Even Analise takes to drinking, so you can tell stuff bugs her. With Wes, I'm not so sure. 

Frank on paper is a truly awful person, but I have to say the actor is pretty good. He's expressing the guilt that I wouldn't expect a sociopath to.  He's very skilled at generating sympathy despite being a sociopathic murderer. Ditto for Bonnie. 

I find the actor who plays Thomas to be kind of annoying to look at, so I don't think Connor's revenge sex was worth it just on a superficial level. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by bantering

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

Unless Laurel lied and they did sleep together this week (which, GIRL!), this seems unlikely.

I took it as a given that Laurel and Frank did sleep together. Laurel wanted to keep him around and the main way to keep a despairing Frank was a roll in the hay. Frank being half-dressed and Bonnie's look on discovering them spoke volumes.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Chicago Redshirt

[Rachel RSL]

Quote

Oliver can go fuck himself.  He actually isn't entitled to know every detail of Connor's work life, and his incessant badgering of Connor to tell him everything about said work life has nothing to do with wanting Connor to be open and honest with him and everything to do with wanting to be in the perceived inner circle.  I loved Oliver so much last season, but they have made him into such an unbelievable asshole with this bullshit and the turning down Stanford behind Connor's back and the breaking up with Connor for shit I'm still not clear about.  I'm glad Connor fucked Thomas, and I will delight in Oliver's pain when he finds out.  Serves him right.

YES to all of this!  The majority of people seem to think Connor is at fault here but I fail to see anything he's done wrong. He changed his slutty ways to be with Oliver, he stood by him when he found out he was positive. And when he found out that Oliver torpedoed his chances at Stanford, he forgave him. And then Oliver dumps him for....forgiving him? WTF? Then he goes out of his way to get a job at Connor's place of employment AND pretty much rubs it in his face that he's dating again. Then when his new guy flakes on him, he goes running back to Connor. And what is this horrible crime that Connor committed to be treated this way...not being able to tell Oliver all the details of what he's doing at work because, you know, CONFIDENTIALITY. Honestly, I used to love Oliver but what a difference a season makes. Now I think Connor deserves so much better!

Edited November 11, 2016 by Rachel RSL

[bantering]

Although I've complained about Wes, I don't want him to be dead. He has become familiar to me and it would be weird not to have him around.

I'm also not sure how Analise would be able to take his death since she sees him as a son in a way.

Edited November 11, 2016 by bantering

[Deanie87]

Is it bad that I would have been semi-okay with the hairy, bearded Frank being under the sheet, but now I will be 100% devastated if its buzz-cut, clean-shaven, shirtless, Frank?  Because I will be.  He and Bonnie have renewed my interest in this show and I desperately need them to be together.  The collegiate canoodling of Wes/Laurel/Asher/Michaela will be put to shame beside the dysfunctional, murderous, orphan love Fronnie/Bank.  God and Annalise willing.

[SoapDoc]

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

However, there's an interest spumor afloat elsewhere about the woman whose house he broke into in this episode. Some seem to think her daughter is Frank's kid.

 

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

I don't think the kid is Frank's/ IIRC they didn't even actually have sex.

I think these are two different situations.

Frank did sleep with the woman whose house he broke into -- that's how he ended up getting the money from the Mahoneys and planting the bug on Annalise. I don't remember how long ago Annalise lost her baby but it would not be a huge retcon to make that child be Frank's.

 

Add me to the folks who believe that Frank has a lot more story to tell. I wouldn't be surprised if they killed Frank off but I think the body under the sheet is Nate.

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, bantering said:

I'm guessing she did. 

I'm just wondering why Wes doesn't feel more conflicted over lying in general. Maybe the actor is trying to register conflict on his face, but something feels kind of missing from his storyline arc. If I had to do as much lying as Wes has had to do, I'd be in a mental institution right now. I think it's just generally having to cross all these moral lines that I feel would be uncomfortable for a normal person.  Even Analise takes to drinking, so you can tell stuff bugs her. With Wes, I'm not so sure. 

Frank on paper is a truly awful person, but I have to say the actor is pretty good. He's expressing the guilt that I wouldn't expect a sociopath to.  He's very skilled at generating sympathy despite being a sociopathic murderer. Ditto for Bonnie. 

I find the actor who plays Thomas to be kind of annoying to look at, so I don't think Connor's revenge sex was worth it just on a superficial level. 

I don't think she told Wes about her involvement with Rose's death specifically. Just that she pressured her into lying on the stand & Rose became afraid & killed herself. It was just last week that she admitted to taking him off the wait list because she "wanted to be a good person " and this week that she divulged that Frank planting that bug was what caused her car accident. I doubt that if Wes knew that AK & Eve pressuring Rose with deportation is what caused her to kill herself, Wes would be so grateful & forgiving of AK, nor would he put up with her throwing the fact that he killed same in his face.

 

As for Connor & Oliver, while I do 'ship them, I'm more team Coliver than team Oliver or team Connor. Make not mistake I wholeheartedly think Oliver's deleting Connor's Stanford acceptance was a awful thing to do.  On the other hand the pile of lies that Connor built this relationship on was bound to create cracks in the foundation of this relationship. Wes did right by breaking it off with Meggy before they got to that point. Connor really is using Oliver as his emotional respite from the strain of what he does for AK. That's not fair, but neither is Oliver's acting out in hopes of breaking out of that. The fight that had was needed. Sadly instead of dealing with the issues that should have been addressed long ago, Connor went for revenge sex instead. IMO neither of them is looking good right about now.

For me this is yet another show about anti-heroes. I think pretty much all of the characters are deeply flawed and troubled people. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Milaxx
Clarification on Rose's death

[LaJefaza]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

The cast was allegedly devastated, not the characters. Frank and Nate might not be a big deal to Annalise or the K5, but Billy & Charles have been with Viola & co since day 1.  Charles in particular has been very involved with the show. If it's Frank, who dies I could understand the cast being upset. It'd be like your favorite coworker suddenly getting fired.

Haha my fault for being too lazy/hurried to Google search the names of Frank and Nate's actors (will amend). I actually did mean the actors when I said Frank and Nate, using the character names as placeholders, so my own fault that I was unclear. But I will take your point that just because Nate isn't that important onscreen, it doesn't mean he doesn't have strong friendships with the rest of the cast and they wouldn't be devastated at his departure. Onscreen=/= offscreen.

BUT I still don't think it's Nate or Frank. I still think the cast would be more hurt by a core K5 castmember loss. That's just a guess, of course. As for the audience, losing Nate in particular seems anticlimactic. And Frank seems too obvious.

[J.D.]

14 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Well da-yum!  So I guess it's down to Frank on Nate #Underthesheet. 

Connor/Oliver *finally* hashed out what needed to be said, and then Connor revenged sexed Thomas. That's some low down dirty.

I'm worried what Mother Mahooney will do to protect her son.

What an episode!

My guess is Mother Mahoney is the one who actually pulled the trigger. 

[Keepitmoving]

When Michaela says she said goodbye to her mother a long time ago, I was like just how long has she been on her own exactly? Although it sounds like even when she was home at a certain point she was on her own then, seems like she was financially taking care of the "family." That's what that line about her mother just calling for money mean to me.  So now that she's away from that chaos and having to shoulder the wait as child I can see why she's losing it and is over Wes and his drama and Anna's drama.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[IntrovertGal]

14 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

Now that Connor is confirmed alive, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because I don't care who dies now. 

Word! I think I would have stopped watching the show if they had killed off Connor. I hated how Oliver hurt Connor in this episode. Yes Connor is lying to him and has been hiding stuff from him, but like Connor said he felt it wasn't his place. Plus if Connor confessed everything to Oliver, wouldn't Oliver become an accessory to all the crimes Connor was involved in? So in a way Connor is protecting Oliver. I don't know, I just find Oliver very unlikeable and judgmental this season. And he really does not have any rights to judge anyone, given what he did with Connor's Stanford application.

[Dee]

Deleting a college acceptance letter ≠ being an accessory to murder.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Dee

[Keepitmoving]

20 minutes ago, IntrovertGal said:

Word! I think I would have stopped watching the show if they had killed off Connor. I hated how Oliver hurt Connor in this episode. Yes Connor is lying to him and has been hiding stuff from him, but like Connor said he felt it wasn't his place. Plus if Connor confessed everything to Oliver, wouldn't Oliver become an accessory to all the crimes Connor was involved in? So in a way Connor is protecting Oliver. I don't know, I just find Oliver very unlikeable and judgmental this season. And he really does not have any rights to judge anyone, given what he did with Connor's Stanford application.

I don't trust him, I never really did because for me, no one's hands can be that clean and nice on this show. He always came off as precious, sweet, innocent Oliver, no, that doesn't work for me with any character on this show.  I'm not buying it. I'm still waiting for his other face to truly show itself. I've been side eyeing Oliver for along time now, something has long been feeling off and him fucking around with Connor's Stanford application sealed it for me. He didn't do that shit for love, that's not love from any angle where I come from.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, J.D. said:

My guess is Mother Mahoney is the one who actually pulled the trigger. 

If it's Nate and not Frank under the sheet then I can see this being the case. It's very much in Frank's personality to accept blame for something somebody else did. However Frank admitted to to taking Wes to NYC & killing Wallace Mahoney.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

29 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I don't trust him, I never really did because for me, no one's hands can be that clean and nice on this show. He always came off as precious, sweet, innocent Oliver, no, that doesn't work for me with any character on this show.  I'm not buying it. I'm still waiting for his other face to truly show itself. I've been side eyeing Oliver for along time now, something has long been feeling off and him fucking around with Connor's Stanford application sealed it for me. He didn't do that shit for love, that's not love from any angle where I come from.

I never saw him as "sweet innocent Oliver". This is a guy who picked up (or got picked up) by a guy in a bar, gave him private company emails & was all too happy to do additional hacking. The problem is that Connor saw him as "innocent, sweet Oliver" and then became surprised to find that Oliver liked doing bad stuff.

[lulee]

Wes was a kid wen Frank offed Mahoney, Sr. and slept with what's her name? Linda? Any kid from that time would be a teenager not the girl getting tucked in. 

For my vote, I think that Wes and Laurel make sense as a couple, in terms of their personalities, but they don't make for the most compelling TV. 

[Milaxx]

Wes was 12, the Mahoney case I believe was 10 years ago (?correct me if I'm wrong). The little girl could be in the 9/10 old range but I don't think that's Frank's kid. Someone being paid to seduce a man and bribe him to plant a bug isn't going to forget to use contraception for their one off bed partner.

[SunnyBeBe]

I suppose my issue is that I don't really care enough about any of the characters, except for Nate, to care who is dead under the sheet.  So, I SUPPOSE that it will be Nate.  That'll pretty much wrap it up for me.  I find most of the characters so annoying.  

So, the woman with the daughter from last night.....is she a friend of Annalise's old law school friend/lover?  Why do I think they have a connection?

How is Annalise going to appeal the Law School President's guilty plea? There are time deadlines for that and it seemed her case was over some time ago.  

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, bantering said:

I'm just wondering why Wes doesn't feel more conflicted over lying in general.

I don't see why Wes would be conflicted about lying. Wes' father raped his mother and his brother killed his girlfriend and got away with it. If anything there has got to be a sense of satisfaction of sticking it to the Mahoneys who destroyed his life. 

[Eolivet]

3 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

I STILL think Wes is under the sheet. If the rumors we heard of the cast being devastated when they found out who'd died are true, then I have a hard time thinking they's be THAT bent out of shape over Billy Brown (Nate). Even Charlie Weber (Frank) is a stretch. I still think it's one of the K5, and my money's still on Alfred Enoch (Wes) . Last week was misdirection.

All of this. Wes is also sort of getting the traditional "I'm so happy" set-up that's traditional before one is about to be killed. Plus, I say again -- it makes so much better drama if the one who dies is the one who fathered Laurel's baby. I wouldn't put it past them to pull an "earlier that night" with Wes. He has yet to be seen in real-time, with anyone else, after all.

Either that or it's Frank (exactly what the narrative has been pointing to all along), and somebody shoots him (Laurel??? Wouldn't that be a doozy?) and Annalise sets the fire to cover it up. And it turns out Laurel and Frank did sleep together and it's his baby, which is the wrench in her and Wes' future (other than him turning turncoat).

If it's Nate, I'm going to be seriously irritated at this show for wasting a whole lot of dramatic potential on a character that hasn't been seen in weeks. "Hasn't been seen in weeks" is great for shock death (see: O'Malley, George of Grey's Anatomy), but really a cop-out -- no pun intended -- for "season-long death mystery."

[Milaxx]

13 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, the woman with the daughter from last night.....is she a friend of Annalise's old law school friend/lover?  Why do I think they have a connection?

She was previously hired by the Mahoney's to seduce Frank and bribe him to plant a bug in Annalise's room. Eve doesn't know her and has never even met her. 

4 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

If it's Nate, I'm going to be seriously irritated at this show for wasting a whole lot of dramatic potential on a character that hasn't been seen in weeks. "Hasn't been seen in weeks" is great for shock death (see: O'Malley, George of Grey's Anatomy), but really a cop-out -- no pun intended -- for "season-long death mystery."

My money is still on Frank being the dead body. I'm also wondering if Nate and his relationship with Atwood will play into the storyline for the second half of the season.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Deleting a college application ≠ being an accessory to murder.

Right. You would think that Oliver committed some major crime from some of these comments. He is practically a saint to compared to everyone else on this show. Also, not only did Oliver admit what he did soon after, Connor never had a shot of going Stanford with failing grades so the outrage is so over the top.

[Milaxx]

Connor was accepted failing grades and all. Both of these guys have serious issues. This was a relationship built on a house of cards.

[Rachel RSL]

I don't think I've seen any over-the-top outrage about Oliver, at least not in this thread...just people commenting on a character they don't like.  *shrug*   As for deleting a college acceptance letter (not an application) not being equal to covering up a murder, of course it isn't. But Connor's involvement in the murder has nothing at all to do with his relationship with Oliver. That's an entirely different issue that has absolutely nothing to do with Oliver. Nobody is saying Connor is perfect, not at all, but in terms of his relationship with Oliver, Oliver was the one who has been completely douchtastic, in my humble opinion.

[Milaxx]

6 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

But Connor's involvement in the murder has nothing at all to do with his relationship with Oliver. That's an entirely different issue that has absolutely nothing to do with Oliver.

They are related because the only reason they got back together was because Connor ran to Oliver after burning Sam and chopping up the body. He sought Oliver out as a refuge against how awful he felt about all the ugly things he does for Annalise. Oliver isn't an idiot and knows he's being lied to over and over again. To compound matters Connor and the rest of the K5 had no qualms with using his skills when it suited them, and meanwhile  continuing to lie to him. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Milaxx

[SimoneS]

50 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Connor was accepted failing grades and all. 

This is show fantasy then. However, I am pretty sure that Connor put in for the transfer before their exams. Regardless, Stanford would have pulled back that acceptance after seeing his failing grades. That transfer was never going to happen.

[Michel]

59 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Connor was accepted failing grades and all.

And he wasn't even failing then!  He only started failing this season.

[Milaxx]

Of course the show is fantasy. It's a make believe show and according to that show, Connor was accepted. If Oliver had not intervened all Connor had to do was formally accept. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Milaxx

[LaJefaza]

Lying has no place in a relationship, I agree, but wasn't Connor  lying to Oliver to protect him? (The rest of them lied to cover their own asses and to have one less person who could rat them out.) Wouldn't Oliver be liable, as an accessory at least, if Connor told him about their many, many, many criminal activities? I'm certain I've heard Connor declare more than once that he didn't want to involve Oliver in order to protect him, and probably because he didn't think Oliver could handle the weight of it all. Connor was already struggling so much himself. He was angry when Oliver started working for AK because of that specific fear.

I don't know...Oliver might be feeling left out, but I have a strong feeling that when shit hit the fan he would have turned around and resented Connor for implicating him even minimally. Look at the way the K5 (6?) lash out at Annalise and blame her for everything, including choices they made on their own. It's very possible that Ollie would have turned on Connor and blamed him if he ever ended up with his back against the wall. 

Edited November 11, 2016 by LaJefaza

[Rachel RSL]

32 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

They are related because the only reason they got back together was because Connor ran to Oliver after burning Sam and chopping up the body. He sought Oliver out as a refuge against how awful he felt about all the ugly things he does for Annalise. Oliver isn't an idiot and knows hes being lied to over and over again. To compound matters Connor and the rest of the K5 had no qualms with using his skills when it suited them, and meanwhile  continuing to lie to him. 

But has he lied to Oliver over and over again or has he simply told him that there are certain things about his work that he's not allowed to talk about or he didn't want to get Oliver involved? I mean, I'm sure Connor probably did some lying back before him and Oliver got serious (I honestly don't remember)  but I seem to recall that mostly it's been Connor saying "I can't tell you" or "It's better if you don't know" etc.  Which is totally different from lying. And especially if it's work related, Oliver shouldn't be holding that against him.  I honestly don't know why Oliver seems to think he's entitled to know *everything* about Connor's work life, to the point where he actually got a job at the same place.

 

ETA: Great minds think alike LaJefaza :)

Edited November 11, 2016 by Rachel RSL

[RedheadZombie]

3 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

When Michaela says she said goodbye to her mother a long time ago, I was like just how long has she been on her own exactly? Although it sounds like even when she was home at a certain point she was on her own then, seems like she was financially taking care of the "family." That's what that line about her mother just calling for money mean to me.  So now that she's away from that chaos and having to shoulder the wait as child I can see why she's losing it and is over Wes and his drama and Anna's drama.

How in the world would Michaela be supporting her family when she's paying for law school, very expensive clothing, nice apartment, expensive furnishings ($400 duvet cover??), etc.  This girl is still living the lie of trust fund princess, when her promised pay off of marrying the rich guy has fallen through.   It's a huge miss in the story telling, and makes me dislike her a little.   While playing a snob, she's become one.

[Dancingjaneway]

If Wes thinks that Laurel isn't playing him he is a LOT dumber than I thought. It's so obvious that she still has feelings for Frank. If she didn't she wouldn't have allowed his ass to stay at her place. I still don't think Wes is going to magically be under that sheet. There is too much going on with the Mahoney situation. You know there is going to be a showdown between the wife and Wes at some point. All the stares and tension isn't just for fun. Connor and Oliver are both so fucked up. They both  need to grow up before they even think about getting into a relationship. I am LOVING Asher and Michaela together. I knew he would answer her phone and that's really going to put a strain on things. When Hargrove was asking Annalise for help all I could think of was "I wonder how soon her husband will end up dead and I wonder which K5 student will be responsible for it?" She is going to wish she had never met Annalise. 

[secnarf]

4 hours ago, doram said:

About a week after conception, the embryo implants into the uterine wall. 2 weeks after that, its heart starts beating. Of course, there are always outliers but the chances that if (a big IF) there was Flaurel sex, it resulted in a baby with a heartbeat 7 days later are extraordinarily unlikely. 

So unless Laurel was doing the beasts with two backs (or is it 3 backs?) with Wes and Frank 3 weeks before the fire, chances are there's only one logical father of that baby. 

There is nothing to suggest the embryo's heart has started beating by the time of the fire. There didn't appear to be a heartbeat on the ultrasound they showed. What we *do* know is that some sort of lab test was positive for pregnacy, and from that we can infer that it was a blood test for beta-hCG, which is typically not positive until ~11 days after conception. If last week's end-of-episode flashback was "two weeks later" then I could buy it being Frank's kid, but if it was "one week later" then I'd give that idea serious side-eye. I can't actually remember which one it was.

2 hours ago, lulee said:

Wes was a kid wen Frank offed Mahoney, Sr. and slept with what's her name? Linda? Any kid from that time would be a teenager not the girl getting tucked in. 

For my vote, I think that Wes and Laurel make sense as a couple, in terms of their personalities, but they don't make for the most compelling TV. 

We saw Mahoney Sr killed at the end of last season, not when Wes was a child. Ten years ago, Frank didn't kill anyone involved in the Mahoney case (with the arguable exception of Sam Jr). And I could maybe buy that girl being ten, but definitely not any older. Anyways, if she was conceived ten years ago during the Mahoney case way back when, she would probably be about 9 now.

I despise Wes and Laurel together. I was kind of lukewarm, but in this episode, it just felt so fake and Laurel didn't even seem like Laurel. I couldn't shake the feeling that she was playing him, the same way she left that message for Frank at Annalise's request.

What an intense scene between Annalise, Bonnie and Frank! It seemed kind of odd to then switch to the flash forward with Connor and Thomas, though.

[J.D.]

I just finished watching last night's show and like some of you I'm confused about the parental advisory.  Normally, I watch the show Thursday evening when it airs, but because of the parental advisory I waited till the light of day.  What can I say, I'm a scaredy-cat and usually a parental advisory has to do with violence.  So, I saved the show for the daytime because I sleep alone until 2:00 a.m.  :(

I LOVE Coliver.  I can't pick sides over who lied worse to who or who's least deserving of the other.  The whole reason I love them is their imperfect relationship.  If I wanted the Brady Bunch, I'd watch the Brady Bunch.  I love the Coliver twist and turns, the plot thickening.... someone lies, someone cheats, someone's unfaithful, someone deletes someone's acceptance letter.  HA!  I love it all.  May they never break up.  Coliver breathes life into the show for me.

I also love Connor crashing at Michaela's house and being annoying as hell.  I hope he becomes a permanent fixture on their sofa.  :D  I can overlook Asher answering Michaela's phone.  Meh.  It happens.

I'll never understand why Bonnie's so loyal to Annalise who only treats her like a human whenever she needs a favor.  Bonnie thinks the world of Annalise and Annalise is always bitchy in return.  I know Bonnie's damaged.  (They all are).  Still, I wish Bonnie would get a backbone and stand up to her in an Emmy worthy performance.  Just once.  Is that too much to ask?

Nate's under that sheet.  Otherwise, there was no purpose for him to do Laurel that favor.  Why give Nate a new career working for the DA? They could have written in a generic character to serve that purpose.  And 'old friend' of Laurel's perhaps.   And besides, why should Nate care so much to help Wes?  Since when were they so close?

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, LaJefaza said:

 

Lying has no place in a relationship, I agree, but wasn't Connor  lying to Oliver to protect him?

 

He has done both and just because it's to protect him is not an excuse. If that's what he needs to do to be in this relationship, then he needs to do like Wes did and break up with him. Otherwise how can you be with a partner who you can't trust? Especially in this case when Connor will pull him in when he needs some hacking done but then it's "I can't tell you, you'll get in trouble"  That's pretty much Oliver's point Connor is using him as a refuge, then shutting him out under the guise of protecting him, but really trying to preserve his image of "sweet, innocent Oliver".   

Edited November 12, 2016 by Milaxx

[Tiger]

A day later, and I think the show is seriously fucking with us.  Frank did kill himself, he is the death, but Connor was the one "under the sheet"; he was literally under a white sheet and pulled it down.

ABC's S&P and the FCC has let this show get away with a lot, but I dont think theybd allowed to have Frank kill himself with a gun to his throat on air, even with Frank out of camera and having blood splatter on Annalise.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Tiger

[Keepitmoving]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

For some reason, I just can't see Michaela as a snob. She's too damaged - has always been portrayed as someone who was neurotic about her Perfect Princess image (remember when Connor said on the night of Sam's death that her brain had "broken" because that image was fracturing) for me to see her as a genuine, Grew-Up-With-A-Silver-Spoon-In-Her-Mouth Rich Girl. And the show has never shown her to be petty about wealth. If anything, she's petty about smarts and getting an academic/professional advantage over her mates. Which is kind of what you expect from someone who's only ever had that card to play. 

(Although this might be personal for me. I have no problem with women and minorities being conceited about their intelligence. I think present-day society goes out of its way to shame or dismiss them so it's always uplifting to see people like Michaela, and Annalisse really, who are arrogant about how much smarter they are than everyone else). 

Michaela might have gone though college and some post-graduate education on a full scholarship if she worked hard enough for one. And from all indications, she worked really hard to get herself out of that "backwater bayou" that she came from. It doesn't explain a lot of the expensive stuff she has, or her lifestyle so either the show's going to delve into that some more (reveal, for example, that she inherited a small nest-egg from her biological parents) or they'll just hand-wave it that she somehow managed to finish top of her class in her pre-law/pre-med degree while holding down 2 jobs and speculating in the stock market or something. 

Exactly, you and I are on the same wave length when it comes to Michaela. Snobs don't take note of how sensitive their boyfriends are and no, she did not make note of that as if it were a negative trait in him. Snobs don't form the kind of sisterly relationship she has with Connor and then let him and her boyfriend practically take over her apt.. because they apparently feel safe there with her. Just bye to all this Michaela is a snob stuff, I'm over it.  I don't even see a snob having the kind of admiration she once had for Anna. Once again, I think she has issues with her own self worth, while that woman who was supposed to become her mother in -law, she to me was acting like the text book definition of a snob.

1 minute ago, Tiger said:

A day later, and I think the show is seriously fucking with us.  Frank did kill himself, he is the death, but Connor was the one "under the sheet"; he was literally under a white sheet and pulled it down.

Isn't it always fucking with us? It's what this show does best.

[Milaxx]

Totally agree re: Micheala. I'm not surprised with her having a $400 duvet either. Even those of us on a budget will occasionally splurge on nice things here and there. Her apartment doesn't look particularly extravagant. She may just be good with her finances. I also didn't get the idea that she supported her family, just that they are the type that if you have $10 they want $8.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

 

Totally agree re: Micheala. I'm not surprised with her having a $400 duvet either. Even those of us on a budget will occasionally splurge on nice things here and there. Her apartment doesn't look particularly extravagant. She may just be good with her finances. I also didn't get the idea that she supported her family, just that they are the type that if you have $10 they want $8.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm not saying that Michaela paid the rent, but I do believe that any dime she's ever made her family members have tried to hit her up for it. That's what I took from her saying that her mom was only calling for money, that and I believe that mention of some meth cousin, didn't she say meth as in drugs? That's what I thought I heard, so it could very well be that her mom has a drug habit for all we know. She tells her mother before leaving to go find out if Asher is OK, to not steal anything. Why on earth would you have to worn your own mother not to steal from you unless she's got some addictive habits? Because as I don't see her as a heartless, selfish, snob, if she had a mom that really needed money to pay the bills I can't see her not sending a few dollars home when she could. But if you have drug habit, I'm not sending money to support that habit and the questionable family members and associates you are still surrounding yourself with.

And yeah, I do wonder where Michaela has gotten her money? Where was she before undergrad and law school? That's what I was wondering when she said that she said goodbye to her mother a long time ago. I was wondering how long was that? Did she leave home before going to college? How was she making money?

Edited November 12, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

4 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Yeah, I'm not saying that Michaela paid the rent, but I do believe that any dime she's ever made her family members have tried to hit her up for it. That's what I took from her saying that her mom was only calling for money, that and I believe that mention of some meth cousin, didn't she say meth as in drugs? That's what I thought I heard, so it could very well be that her mom has a drug habit for all we know. She tells her mother before leaving to go find out if Asher is OK, to not steal anything. Why on earth would you have to worn your own mother not to steal from you unless she's got some addictive habits? Because as I don't see her as a heartless, selfish, snob, if she had a mom that really needed money to pay the bills I can't see her not sending a few dollars home when she could. But if you have drug habit, I'm not sending money to support that habit and the questionable family members and associates you are still surrounding yourself with.

I don't think her mom is on drugs. She mentioned a cousin.  I posted in the speculation thread I wouldn't be surprised if Micheala came from a family of grifters. Even if they are the point is they relied so heavily on Michaela that she felt the need to cut ties. I don't think there is a need to create a parent with a drug habit. She could just be overly needy.

[J.D.]

I don't see Michaela as a snob at all.  I see her as exactly how she described herself to Asher:  Putting herself first.  And what's wrong with that?  She came from a shitty background and instead of letting that define her future, she's doing what it takes to achieve her goals.  She may not be the most open and demonstrative person, but who can blame her?  She doesn't have an arsenal of warm and fuzzy stories of her childhood to share, and so she avoids the 'family' conversations.  Michaela's my favorite character .... next to Coliver, of course.

[Tiger]

Between her work ethic, ambition and token status, Ive always thought Michaela was on multiple scholarships that enabled her to not only not pay tuition and also live comfortably.

[Keepitmoving]

8 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

I don't think her mom is on drugs. She mentioned a cousin.  I posted in the speculation thread I wouldn't be surprised if Micheala came from a family of grifters. Even if they are the point is they relied so heavily on Michaela that she felt the need to cut ties. I don't think there is a need to create a parent with a drug habit. She could just be overly needy.

Not a need, I'm speculating and yeah, to me  if you have to steal from me, and you're my parent, there's a problem other than neediness IMO.  I guess it's all in one's background how you view things, I come from family and friends who have families, parents that wouldn't take a dime from them unless it was to help them budget and to put the money in a savings acct.. I come from a place where grown ups in the family aren't asking kids at any age for money. They ask you if you have your finances in order, so that you can take care of yourself, they're not hitting you up for a dime.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Keepitmoving]

9 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Between her work ethic, ambition and token status, Ive always thought Michaela was on multiple scholarships that enabled her to not only not pay tuition and also live comfortably.

Right, and she would have to keep up those grades to keep that scholarship, that's why she always seems to be studying for some test. It's about twice over the last two episodes that she's been in that apt. with her 'adoptive brother "Connor" and her child-like silly boyfriend and she's the only one of the three trying to crack the books. Meanwhile, Asher and Connor are taking turns prancing around in her robe, LOL. I love the rounds that robe is making, hilarious.

[dgpolo]

Suicide ideation is a thing, Frank talking about killing himself because he deserves it and Annalise egging him on would be very triggering. If you can't imagine that it needs to be warned against then you are very lucky.

When I first saw Annalise with the burner phone I thought it was the one she gave Oliver to wipe, did she get two?

I'm still not counting out Wes or even Connor, I guess we'll know next week.

[Milaxx]

39 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

 

Suicide ideation is a thing, Frank talking about killing himself because he deserves it and Annalise egging him on would be very triggering. If you can't imagine that it needs to be warned against then you are very lucky

 

I'd also add as jaded as we may be, having a gay character on a non cable show obviously giving a BJ might also earn them a parental advisory warning. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Milaxx