S01.E07: The Best Washing Machine in the World

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, topanga said:

Jeez, then what show was I watching? Or did I give all of Kevin's lines to Randall? I'm as bad as Rebecca!!!

It was Kevin who said the "replaced by another black man" line. They were walking and arguing about the fact that Randall has never watched The Manny. Randall quips that Kate only went to the taping because Kevin was paying her. Kevin spots the new Manny poster and stops cold. Randall sees the poster and starts laughing. That's when Kevin says it.

[ShadowFacts]

35 minutes ago, Jx223 said:

I think that sometimes when a relationship is strained with a loved one due to mistreatment a person will still want to keep their distance even if the other person tries to make amends. Especially if the person that was mistreated has "made it" and now has another strong support system (like their own family) in place. It's easier for them now to try and reject the other person when this happens. I think that may be the case with Randall and him trying to rebuff Kevin in various ways.

I agree so much with this.  Something that's been pretty toxic for a long time is maybe never going to smell like a rose.

10 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

As for William's reveal - I'm thinking it won't just be Rebecca he'll be angry with. After all, William's lied to him as well, and didn't make an effort to know him as he was growing up. I'm not sure he can cancer his way out of that (love, love, love Beth).

Yes, and that's why I hope Randall finds out before William dies, so William can explain what his feelings were, and Randall isn't left to wonder and agonize over that. 

As to the whole billboard deal, I find it hard to believe that Kevin wouldn't have already known.  Unless he cut off all ties.  Wasn't one of the guys in the restaurant a former co-star?  I just think there is a grapevine, there is the internet, he wouldn't be surprised by a billboard.  It was a dramatic device.

[movingtargetgal]

6 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

7 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Surgery is the most effective weight loss treatment.

In the short run. Every person I've known (and I know quite a few) who have done it have gained the weight back. They had amazing losses, and it took them longer, but eventually they were back to square one.

I have had weight loss surgery and it did work in the short run.  Before and immediately after the surgery I did lose a great deal of weight.  However, I was only eating 600-800 calories a day.  I could not maintain that type of restricted diet.  A few years after the surgery my Lapband failed ( it turns out many of these devices are failing).  Last year I began having pain where my port was located and one night I spiked a 105 degree fever.  I was rush to the ER and told I had an abscess at the port site.  I was in emergency surgery for six hours and they removed the lapband, a four inch abscess and over a liter and a half of infected fluids.  The band had eroded into my stomach causing a hole in my stomach.  I almost died that day.  My surgeon told me that what I experienced is happening to more and more of his patients.  At my six week follow up he suggested I have another type of weight loss surgery.  I have debated doing it, however, I don't think I will.  I am just too scared.

Like Kate I have struggled with my weight and with my mother's issues about my weight all my life.  When I was 12 years old, my mother went to the extreme of taking me to an out of state diet doctor who for a fee and without any medical testing whatsoever would give you a 30 day supply of synthroid, water pills and an amphetamine. ( This screwed with my metabolism in a major way.) It was the only mother/daughter activity we ever did.  I can't wait to see how the writers deal with the struggles Kate and her mother will have about Kate's weight.  So many mothers and daughters go through this.  It truly is an emotional minefield.  If written well, it could help so many mothers and daughters.

So far I have been very disappointed in how Kate's story has been written.  Those dieting group scenes make me cringe.  I would love for Kate to find a group that focuses less on food (and the parceling out of crackers and cheez-its) and more on the emotional reasons why they need to self medicate with food.  What is going on emotionally with Kate that is causing her to harm herself.  Is it grief because of the death of her father?  Is it a way for her "win" the power struggle with her mother? Or, is it a combination?  When an alcoholic or drug addict stops using, underlying emotional issues rise to the surface.  What is going on with Kate emotionally that she self medicating by overeating?  So many people believe that if someone loses the weight their lives will be fixed and true happiness will be found.  It would be great to watch Kate go through the emotional journey of weight loss. 

[ProudMary]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I just want to point out one difference between alcohol addiction and food addiction. You never HAVE to drink alcohol again. But you do have to eat, you will always be around food. It is an unending struggle.

This is an important point.  While I have never been clinically obese, I have had occasion to lose 45 pounds with Weight Watchers.  I had a great facilitator and she brought this up a lot.  Many times, people who have a known recovering alcoholic in their midst in a social situation will opt not to drink themselves.  With food, it often goes in the opposite direction, "Is that salad ALL you're going to eat?" or Grandma telling you, "Come on, eat some more.  I made this just for you."  There is social pressure to eat.

The other thing I did want to bring up is that the program Kate has herself on is completely unrealistic.  She needs more balance in what she's eating and she needs to allow for an occasional sweet if that's what she's craving.  It was implied in the scene at the gas station that she went on a junk food binge.  Had she just eaten the one donut we saw her eat in the scene, that would have been okay!  It shouldn't be made to look as if she did something positively awful.  No one can live the rest of their life without an occasional sweet or salty snack or dessert.  Even if one were able to go through their entire weight loss program to goal without say, a slice of pizza, there's no way they'd be able to maintain their goal weight.  It can't just be a "diet" indicating deprivation of food.  It has to be a change in lifestyle and that includes the occasional bagel with cream cheese or a couple of chocolate chip cookies in addition to newly acquired healthy food habits.

All that being said, I have reached the point of boredom with Kate's story line evidently being all about her weight.  It's the weakest part of the show in my opinion.  The show's writers are pretty great in all other aspects of the show.  Kate's plot needs some work.

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, saber5055 said:

As someone who is depressed by the lack of proper English in reality shows AND scripted shows, the best line of the night was Randall correcting Kevin's "Randall and me" to "Randall and I." I actually shouted YES! to my tv. Thank you, show writers. You have put yourselves head and shoulders above all other writing crews.

If that type of response is considered rude in answer to an internet post, imagine what it's been like growing up in the shadow of a sibling belittling you that way.  Randall isn't blameless in this equation.

 

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Yes, I know, I've lived it.  That's why I'm not as sympathetic towards Kevin.  He's 3 years older than I am.  I'm not bitter towards my sibling the way he is.  I think I got over those feelings towards my sibling when I was a teenager and realized it wasn't at all my sibling's fault, because he was an innocent child.

Kate and Randall's stories strike me as way more sympathetic.  Personal opinion.

If the show was more about Kevin realizing he has Mommy Issues (hello, me in a nutshell) then yeah, that's understandable for me.  But instead he lashes out at Randall.  It's hard to understand, but the show is interesting, because it's helping fill the blanks, and it's relatable.  But am I super sympathetic towards Kevin?  Nah.  And that's okay we can all see it differently.  I dislike having Mommy issues sure, but I hate being blamed or lashed out at for things that aren't my fault just as much.  i.e. how I see Randall in this equation.

As I said above, Randall isn't blameless here.  Rebecca overlooked the dynamic she fueled and Randall's faults in the equation.  Viewers watch from their own point of reference as well, which may flavor insight and response to the characters and the situation.

I'm not suggesting Randall's a monster or particularly carries the bulk of the blame by any means, far from it.  He's my favorite character on the show at this point and I can see he does have some fault in this situation -- although I'm very much rooting for a healing and strong bonding between the brothers.  I think it will do them both a world of good. 

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

 

As to the whole billboard deal, I find it hard to believe that Kevin wouldn't have already known.  Unless he cut off all ties.  Wasn't one of the guys in the restaurant a former co-star?  I just think there is a grapevine, there is the internet, he wouldn't be surprised by a billboard.  It was a dramatic device.

It makes sense.  That's exactly how I feel about the brownies instead of the more realistic lighting up that nausea and lack of appetite would indicate.  Feels like the writers were either wedded to the work brownies laugh or they in fact cut a bit where Randall and Kevin eat brownies while watching TV in the basement because of time constraints.   

[ClareWalks]

The brownies made total sense to me. You don't want the smell of weed in your house with your kids. Plus smoking is harder to explain if they walk in on you.

[Tikichick]

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

I'm certainly no expert but if Kate only lost 1.25lbs after starving herself for a week it doesn't seem like diet alone and Weight Watchers (or whatever) will be enough. She needs to talk to a doctor. (Assuming she truly wants to lose the weight.). And if her food issues are related to her dad's death, maybe she needs help with that too.

I think we have to remember that the situation is fictional and we can't really speculate on the specifics of the results and look to extrapolate real treatment flaws/needs based on what the writers are laying out.  They were looking to make the contrast in Toby's and Kate's results and I think that's about all we can read out of it.

4 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

The brownies made total sense to me. You don't want the smell of weed in your house with your kids. Plus smoking is harder to explain if they walk in on you.

They also conveniently were shown sitting out on the patio post brownies. 

[ClareWalks]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

They also conveniently were shown sitting out on the patio post brownies. 

I missed that part! I just assumed it was too cold out (maybe November) for outdoor "activities," since the guys wore long sleeves and long tights on their morning run, and at their pace it would have to be in the 30s or colder for those outfits to make any sense.

[biakbiak]

I know several people who prefer edibles (homemade or dispensary bought) to smoking both people who are using it for medical reason and those who are using it purely recreationally. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by biakbiak

[photo fox]

It's funny... so many people seem to go back to the pool scene when thinking about Kevin and Randall's childhood dynamic, but I always think of the Superbowl episode.  Jack hugs Kate, who's clearly his favorite.  Rebecca grabs Randall, who is clearly hers.  And Kevin just flings himself against them, because he has no one.  (Incidentally, while it can't have been easy being raised with Mr. Does Everything Right and Mr. Everything Comes Easy, I can see why Kate isn't competitive with them.  She had dad.  And she's not a brother.)

Kevin should absolutely realize that Randall isn't to blame for Rebecca's shortcomings when they were growing up, but I sympathize, especially with teen Kevin.  I think it's just easier in a way to blame the favored sibling for "stealing" mom's attention than to think to yourself that "mom just doesn't love me that much".  Even more so when people around them probably always thought that she was a great mom.

In reality, she's got a lot to answer to regarding those boys.  And I'm not letting Jack off the hook, either.  Did it ever occur to them to ask Kevin what was wrong?

[ProudMary]

5 minutes ago, photo fox said:

In reality, she's got a lot to answer to regarding those boys.  And I'm not letting Jack off the hook, either.  Did it ever occur to them to ask Kevin what was wrong?

Yes.  I really wanted to see the conversation that occurred after Jack told them to "get their asses in the car."  Was there one or did they just send both brothers to their respective rooms when they got home?

[chocolatine]

52 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

I know several people who prefer edibles (homemade or dispensary bought) to smoking both people who are using it for medical reason and those who are using it purely recreationally. 

I agree that many people don't like to smoke, but I think sublingual (i.e. lozenge or lollipop) makes a lot more sense for someone who's too sick to eat. They could still have had a "work lollipops" joke, but making them would take longer and require special equipment like candy molds and candy thermometer that not everyone has in their house.

[ShadowFacts]

24 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Yes.  I really wanted to see the conversation that occurred after Jack told them to "get their asses in the car."  Was there one or did they just send both brothers to their respective rooms when they got home?

I took it from the way he was flopped on the bed that there was no talk, even though he said there would be when they got home.  We should have seen it if it occurred.  Jack is a little bit checked out in these flashbacks, and that doesn't help the whole sibling rivalry (which I've read can be the worst between two same-sex close in age siblings, which they couldn't be closer). 

[biakbiak]

12 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I agree that many people don't like to smoke, but I think sublingual (i.e. lozenge or lollipop) makes a lot more sense for someone who's too sick to eat. They could still have had a "work lollipops" joke, but making them would take longer and require special equipment like candy molds and candy thermometer that not everyone has in their house.

My personal experience with friends who don't have appetites don't bear this out it but everyone is different.

[kili]

I thought it was interesting that they started the flashback with Kevin complaining how he couldn't sleep with the light on and near the end, Jack asks Rebecca to turn off the light for the same reason. Were they once again signalling that Jack and Kevin are very much alike? They both have the same easy charm. They are both are good with building things (houses/models). 

Is it possible that one of the reasons that Rebecca rejects Kevin so soundly is because he is so much like Jack? She clearly dotes on Randall and, other than the food issues, gets on well with Kate (at least in the past). Jack is the one that wanted the kids. Kevin is the kid most like him. Is it possible that she blames Kevin for the loss of her dreams?  Is that another reason she always sides with Randall when the two boys fight?

The title of this episode is not as obvious as some like "The Pool" or "The Game". What role does the "Best Washing Machine in the World" play? If we scroll back to the beginning of washing machine scenes, Jack and Rebecca are in a laundromat and he promises to buy her the best washing machine in the world. They are together dreaming of a life together. The next time we see them, the kids are babies and they work together to get past the broken washing machine and their early struggles with kids. The next time the machine breaks, the kids are 8 and the entire family gets together to resolve the issue. That was probably their golden age. Now, the best washing machine in the world is broken - it is possessed. Rebecca is all alone dealing with it as only Kevin looks on. Jack is not there. 

Rebecca only seems to see the dreams that she has lost. She does not see the ones that Jack has lost because they are not as obvious and Jack puts on his happy face. If Jack dies shortly after this period - some think that Jack died when the Big 3 were 15 because of Kevin saying 15 is tough to the widow - at the point when Rebecca is about to return to her dream job of singing, she will probably resent the crap out of him as she once again must put her dreams on the shelf. She won't be able to vent at Jack.

[Amethyst]

1 hour ago, photo fox said:

In reality, she's got a lot to answer to regarding those boys.  And I'm not letting Jack off the hook, either.  Did it ever occur to them to ask Kevin what was wrong?

Next week should be interesting.  Especially if Kevin is at that dinner.  I agree that Jack and Rebecca are ultimately responsible for this, even if they didn't mean for this to happen.  But it has, and since Jack is dead, Rebecca will have to deal with the fallout.  

Also, I didn't notice Jack's memory lapse at all.  I just assumed he's been so overwhelmed at work that he forgot about the conversation with Rebecca.  

[Jx223]

..

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jx223

[Happytobehere]

13 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Kevin obviously chose that restaurant so he and Randall would not have to be alone or talk.  I even wonder if Randall faked that conversation with his mom just so they had to go themselves based on the conversation with his wife earlier.  Either way though, Randall literally not letting Kevin talk to his mom obviously caused some hurt feelings.  But then Kevin returns the favor in the restaurant, not letting Randall in on taking the selfie. 

I hadn't thought of this but I think you're right.  Randall couldn't let Kevin talk to the mom becaus no one was on the line. Randall had called and cancelled with her do he could try to have a semblance of a relationship with his brother.  

What continues to strike me about Randall's crappy relationship it's Kevin is how Randall doesn't let it get in the way of the girls having a relationship with their uncle.  

As for me, Kevin has a long way to go for me to find him likable. He has a life-long track record of bring horrible and self-absorbed.  The nerve of him to impose on Randall to prop his ego when he is so horrible to Randall when he has no use for him.  That racist comment wasn't lost on me either, Mr. White, Male, Privilege. You meant what you said and you said what you meant. Own that ish.

Unlike most, I like Toby and thought Kate was mostly wrong this episode. Having said that, I too would like to see Kate transplant herself to the east coast with her brothers.  It would connect the family and. Think we will see that Kate served as the middle child, always trying to broker a peace between her brothers. Remember Randall has pictures with the two of them,  and Randall actually seemed happy to talk with her when Kevin called him in the middle of the night.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Happytobehere

[Court]

Toby can eat whatever he likes but he was an ass to order that humongous desert with Kate there. 

Randall and Kevin are both to blame for their relationship. Randall isn't an angel in this either.

[Happytobehere]

11 hours ago, topanga said:

Two people have said it--you're probably right. I'll have to re-watch that scene. I thought for sure that Randall was the one who said something mean. It sure felt like it. Maybe it was as simple as Randall asking, "Is that the new Manny?" Knowing darn well that would upset Kevin. 

Yes, it was Kevin who made the racist comment, it doesn't even make sense for Randall to have said this.  Since they clearly look and sound nothing alike, the confusion is confounding.  Kevin has done nothing but treat Randall like garbage their entire lives and is now imposing on him, sans invite mind you, yet somehow Kevin is victim of Randall's cruelty? 

[Jx223]

2 hours ago, photo fox said:

 

In reality, she's got a lot to answer to regarding those boys.  And I'm not letting Jack off the hook, either.  Did it ever occur to them to ask Kevin what was wrong?

I wonder if Jack really ever tried to find out what was really going on between Kevin and Randall. Maybe he thought their fighting was normal for two brothers who were the same age with different personalities. I think that Jack tried to be the best father he could.  Even though he was stretched thin between trying to help raise all of them and advance in his career. I know some people feel Kate was his favorite but I think he loved and tried to treat them all equally.

I think that Kate was a daddy's girl but I also believed he tried to be close to all of his kids. He even said this in "Career Days" that he viewed and tried to treat them the same. (Even though he said he realized they were all unique in their own ways.)

I actually believe that Rebecca loved them all the same as well,even though she favored Randall. I think she had a closer bond to him but I don't think she actually loved him more than the other kids. I may have to elaborate more on those thoughts in the unpopular opinions thread, lol.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jx223

[SlackerInc]

6 hours ago, saber5055 said:

As someone who is depressed by the lack of proper English in reality shows AND scripted shows, the best line of the night was Randall correcting Kevin's "Randall and me" to "Randall and I." I actually shouted YES! to my tv. Thank you, show writers. You have put yourselves head and shoulders above all other writing crews.

What was the context?  I see people incorrectly saying "[name] and I" far more often than the reverse.  (For instance, "He was with Randall and I" is incorrect: it should be "Randall and me" since "me" is a prepositional object.)

5 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Mileage varies. I am as well, even though I exercise each and every day and have done for the last 20 years. I cook all my food from scratch making it flavorful without fat, portion it out, and make it healthy. But when I'm stressed or triggered in some other way, absolutely, I binge.
 

The lowfat trend in dieting has mostly been discredited.  For the past few years, I have followed the recommendation of the Harvard School of Public Health and stuck to a Mediterranean diet, which is not low in fat but most of the fat is from extra virgin olive oil, and it contains very little processed food.  I highly recommend that diet.

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

The lowfat trend in dieting has mostly been discredited.  For the past few years, I have followed the recommendation of the Harvard School of Public Health and stuck to a Mediterranean diet, which is not low in fat but most of the fat is from extra virgin olive oil, and it contains very little processed food.  I highly recommend that diet.

I misspoke (mistyped) when I said without fat. What I meant was without large amounts of saturated fats - providing the bulk of my flavor with spices and aromatics. Olive oil (specifically EVOO) is indeed a staple in our home. Thank you for the link.

[TomServo]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

What was the context?  I see people incorrectly saying "[name] and I" far more often than the reverse.  (For instance, "He was with Randall and I" is incorrect: it should be "Randall and me" since "me" is a prepositional object.)

It wasn't part of a sentence, so it's hard to say.  I could think up sentences that could have gone either way within the context of the scene.  However, in the *very next scene* after that one, Beth said something like, "It's just us ladies" when it should have been "we ladies" since there was not an unspoken preposition involved.

In case it hasn't been mentioned yet: during the football game, you could hear an announcer in the background indicating the match-up between two middle schools.

I wonder how Jack got his vehicle home from the game since they arrived separately but left in one vehicle.  Maybe Miguel had given him a ride or something.

[Suck It Trebek]

On November 15, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Jx223 said:

I'm glad they were a little bit open with each other at the end and spend some time together.

Under the same blanket, too! Sweet touch.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Suck It Trebek

[topanga]

15 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

As to the whole billboard deal, I find it hard to believe that Kevin wouldn't have already known.  Unless he cut off all ties.  Wasn't one of the guys in the restaurant a former co-star?  I just think there is a grapevine, there is the internet, he wouldn't be surprised by a billboard.  It was a dramatic device.

It sounded like he knew there was a new manny but didn't know it was Morris Chestnut. Yes, I rewatched the scene, and he did say, "That's the new Manny?"  I don't think Kevin is racist, but as he said, "Once again, I'm being replaced by a black man." Which is reminiscent of his childhood. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

13 hours ago, Tikichick said:

If that type of response is considered rude in answer to an internet post, imagine what it's been like growing up in the shadow of a sibling belittling you that way.  Randall isn't blameless in this equation.

As I said above, Randall isn't blameless here. 

I don't agree.  Kevin ignored or practically bullied Randall for existing.  Again, not Randall's fault.  Randall's reacting out of reasonable bitterness in my opinion.  Unfortunately, Kevin's jealousy and misplaced anger has helped form Randall's personality.  I don't assign blame to Randall, who in my opinion was the victim of Kevin's anger.  (Randall corrected Kevin's grammar?!  Ouch!  Not really.)

Though I can understand sympathizing with Kevin for his situation now.

[GodsBeloved]

I forgot to talk about the Kevin/Randall scene in the bedroom. I thought Randall was totally wrong and Rebecca's immediate response should have been tell Randall to go to the kitchen to finish his homework. It was 2AM and they were in the bedroom where one of the primary things you do is sleep. I can get that Randall may not have realized how inconsiderate he was being but Rebecca should have. Instead she takes Randall's side when his actions were dead wrong.

Did anyone think Jack was sick? I did and with this in mind after rewatching, it felt even more like he was and the aging wasn't what made me feel this way. He looked and acted worn.

Edited November 17, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Jx223]

21 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I forgot to talk about the Kevin/Randall scene in the bedroom. I thought Randall was totally wrong and Rebecca's immediate response should have been tell Randall to go to the kitchen to finish his homework. It was 2AM and they were in the bedroom where one of the primary things you do is sleep. I can get that Randall may not have realized how inconsiderate he was being but Rebecca should have. Instead she takes Randall's side when his actions were dead wrong.

I don't neither Randall or Rebecca were dead wrong in that scene. Especially Rebecca. She asked both the boys what was wrong and then backed Randall's suggestion of going to the kitchen to study as a compromise. She was trying to do what she thought would make both boys happy. I thought that was a reasonable suggestion but Kevin was snappy and rejected it. I didn't really view that scene as her taking Randall's side because she favored him but more as her taking his suggestion because she thought it would benefit both boys. I didn't really see her as taking Randall's side in the scene at the table in the episode of "The Pool" either.

Both times I saw a woman that mainly wanted both of her sons to get along. I think that Rebecca is getting blamed more than she deserves and her fondness for Randall is being made out to be more than it what it actually was. Which is mainly fondness and not huge rejection of Kevin or some desire to "always take Randall's side". Kevin may have seen that fondness as her rejecting him but I don't think that was the case when they were children. I do believe their relationship became more strained after Jack died. But prior to that I think she tried with Kevin even though she favored Randall.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jx223

[topanga]

19 minutes ago, Jx223 said:

I don't neither Randall or Rebecca were dead wrong in that scene. Especially Rebecca. She asked both the boys what was wrong and then backed Randall's suggestion of going to the kitchen to study as a compromise. She was trying to do what she thought would make both boys happy. I thought that was a reasonable suggestion but Kevin was snappy and rejected it. I didn't really view that scene as her taking Randall's side because she favored him but more as her taking his suggestion because she thought it would benefit both boys. I didn't really see her as taking Randall's side in the scene at the table in the episode of "The Pool" either.

I love Randall, but he was wrong in both scenes, and Rebecca was even more wrong for not correcting him. When they were eight and Kevin was working on the Rubick's cube (his, mind you), Randall said, "You're not doing it right" and snatched it out of his hands. Randall was doing homework at 2 am, which is fine, but the light was keeping Kevin awake. He should have gone elsewhere in the house to do his homework. I don't expect children to always understand when they're being rude or inconsiderate. It's a parent's job to teach them. And Rebecca dropped the ball both times. 

If Kevin had been awake at 2 am doing arm exercises or studying his play book, Rebecca most certainly would have told him to go to sleep or to go elsewhere in the house so Randall could sleep. 

[ShadowFacts]

The bedroom scene was an engineered scene of a problem that should not be a problem.  There is the kitchen.  There is the living room.  Go to one of them.  Then go to your bedroom when you are finished.  No need for Kevin to move to the basement.  But even that is not the end of the world.  Some kids love their basement privacy.  It's all to show us how Kevin felt, which to me is a little bit more aggrieved than makes sense, but that's what they're going for I think. 

[kili]

Quote

I don't neither Randall or Rebecca were dead wrong in that scene. Especially Rebecca. She asked both the boys what was wrong and then backed Randall's suggestion of going to the kitchen to study as a compromise.

Randall was wrong. It is rude to keep a light on in a bedroom when somebody else is sleeping. It is 2 am on a school night and he is preventing his brother from sleeping. He should have been studying somewhere else. He's a teenager and thoughtless and Rebecca should have just told him to go set up in the kitchen.

Instead, Rebecca defends Randall. When Kevin states that he is upset because he is being kept awake and it is the night before a big game, Rebecca says "but Kevin, Randall has  a lot of homework and now that he is on the football team he has a lot less time to do it".  She is telling Kevin that Randall is being completely reasonable  keeping Kevin awake and Kevin is unreasonable for complaining. Does she ever correct Randall? When Kevin decides to go sleep in the unfinished basement, Rebecca goes to sit on Randall's bed (another sign that she is taking his side) and Randall offers to finally do the right thing. "That's a very nice offer, do you hear what your brother is saying?"  So, now Randall is the nice person for finally doing what he should have done all along. By this time in the story, if Randall had stolen Kevin's Rubik's cube and finished it, Rebecca would have made Kevin thank Randall for helping him solve it. "Wasn't that very nice of your brother to finish that for you?"

Edited November 17, 2016 by kili

[photo fox]

For me, it's more Rebecca's attitude than her actions.  Even when she's playing the middle, it comes off as "Thank you, Randall, for being SO accommodating.  Kevin, isn't Randall being wonderfully generous?"  Even when she takes Kevin's side, it seems like there's a bit of a "wink and a nod" with Randall, like "I'm taking his side, but you know how he is."  Which really annoys me, because she's supposed to be the parent.  She just lets them do whatever and then heaves a big exasperated sigh.

But I'll admit I may be biased against Rebecca, whom I just can't like for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me.

[ShadowFacts]

In one of the earlier episodes when the kids were 8 or 9, Rebecca told Kevin "be nice to your brother" which is kind of non-specific and weak, but parents tend to do shorthand like that all the time.  I'm beginning to be reminded of the old Downton Abbey days of who was worse, Mary or Edith?   These brothers aren't quite as horrible to each other (yet), but both have their parts in the rivalry.  And we see that as viewers, and come to have more empathy for one than the other, so it's no wonder that parents do, as well.  I would like to see more of Jack's interactions with them when spats happen. 

[Jx223]

2 hours ago, topanga said:

I love Randall, but he was wrong in both scenes, and Rebecca was even more wrong for not correcting him. When they were eight and Kevin was working on the Rubick's cube (his, mind you), Randall said, "You're not doing it right" and snatched it out of his hands. Randall was doing homework at 2 am, which is fine, but the light was keeping Kevin awake. He should have gone elsewhere in the house to do his homework. I don't expect children to always understand when they're being rude or inconsiderate. It's a parent's job to teach them. And Rebecca dropped the ball both times. 

 

2 hours ago, kili said:

Instead, Rebecca defends Randall. When Kevin states that he is upset because he is being kept awake and it is the night before a big game, Rebecca says "but Kevin, Randall has  a lot of homework and now that he is on the football team he has a lot less time to do it".  She is telling Kevin that Randall is being completely reasonable  keeping Kevin awake and Kevin is unreasonable for complaining. Does she ever correct Randall? When Kevin decides to go sleep in the unfinished basement, Rebecca goes to sit on Randall's bed (another sign that she is taking his side) and Randall offers to finally do the right thing. "That's a very nice offer, do you hear what your brother is saying."  So, now Randall is the nice person for finally doing what he should have done all along. By this time in the story, if Randall had stolen Kevin's Rubik's cube and finished it, Rebecca would have made Kevin thank Randall for helping him solve it. "Wasn't that very nice of your brother to finish that for you."

I do agree that Randall could have been more thoughtful when he decided where to study.  And Rebecca could have been more empathetic towards Kevin and got on Randall for taking his rubric's cube. 

But I stand by my comments of believing that Rebecca was ultimately trying to figure out what was best for both boys in the bedroom scene and that none of her the actions that have been shown so far have shown her flat out rejecting Kevin: overwhelming favoring Randall. Showing a fondness for Randall? Sure. But not the other things. In the bedroom scene she came across as trying to reach some sort of compromise to get her boys to get along/stay together. She seemed very disappointed when Kevin wanted to move to the basement.

I do not believe if the situation was reversed that she would have made Kevin go sleep in the basement. If that were the case I don't think she would have tried to convince him to stay in the room with Randall when he first suggested it. She seemed upset about that suggestion. She wanted the boys to stay together.

In an earlier episode she also told Kevin to look after his little brother and I feel like that was another example her wanting them to stick together.

Rebecca has a fondness for Randall but I do not believe she loves him more than Kevin. She has a better relationship with him but I believe she loves her children equally. I also think that may be how Rebecca sees thing as well. We have yet to get her perspective of things. When she is finally confronted by Kevin it wouldn't surprise me at all if she tells him that she loves them equally and believes she tried to treat them fairly. After processing things she may even come to realize and admit that she worried about Randall more/didn't want him to feel like an outsider and that affected how she interacted with him.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jx223

[jeansheridan]

I love that teen and adult Randell are both a little nerdy and awkward.  Randall only has swagger around his wife.  

I appreciate adult Kevin.  Actors are super needy of validation.  They get rejected so much in auditions.  Seems like few of them ever feel really secure even when they are popular.  But I think he is honest.  He does listen. He is trying. I like it.

I do think it was striking how charming he was with Randell' s neighbors when it sounds like Randell feels like an outsider.  Kevin is confident people will like him in general.  He moves through the world assured his handsome face and charm will smooth the way.  He is also pleasant but the ease is striking.  Randell always seems uneasy except inside his home or work despite being handsome and pleasant as well.  

[Indy]

And now in addition to my crock pot, Jack & Rebecca have my washer and dryer. Which I think means I need new things. Seriously, the washing machine they zoomed in on in the first 10 seconds of the show is my damned washing machine and matching dryer.  And despite what Rebecca says, they're way way better than any new ones I've ever had.  Particularly the dryer. It is the best dryer in the world. 

I loved high William and Beth. Especially when the daughter came downstairs wanting brownies and Beth had to put her mom hat on. Though that might have bested by "oh hi Seth Meyers" while Randall and Kevin were fighting on the street. Deadpan Randall for the win.

They've done a fantastic job casting the younger versions of Kevin, Kate, and Randall.  The teenage ones are great too. I enjoyed the scene of Kate putting on all the eye liner, calling back to when adult Randall made the comment about Kate's eye-liner phase. 

[GodsBeloved]

21 minutes ago, Jx223 said:

But I stand by my comments of believing that Rebecca was ultimately trying to figure out what was best for both boys in the bedroom scene and that none of her the actions that have been shown so far have shown her flat out rejecting Kevin

[kili]

Quote

But I stand by my comments of believing that Rebecca was ultimately trying to figure out what was best for both boys in the bedroom scene

The best solution for both boys is to tell Randall to go study in the kitchen. That way he can do his homework with all the light he needs and use a proper surface (he was all bent over trying to do it on his nightstand with the light shining in the wrong direction). And that way, Kevin gets to sleep. The only other reasonable solution is to tell Randall to go to turn off the light and go to sleep since sleep is important too.

But Rebecca opts for neither of those solutions. Her offered solution is to tell Kevin that Randall has a lot of work to do and imply he should be more reasonable. That is a truly awful solution. Both boys get no sleep on a school night and the homework is done in less than optimal conditions. 

If Rebecca wasn't so completely biased between always being on Randall's side, she would have seen that. 

Quote

She seemed very disappointed when Kevin wanted to move to the basement.

She is always disappointed in Kevin. Kevin who can't swim didn't keep an eye on his brother who could swim. Kevin who is 8 can't manage the difficult aspects of group pressure. Kevin complains that his brother steals his toys and finishes his game.  Kevin has never gotten a compliment or praise from her.

By the time he is 15, Kevin has given up expecting any from her.

Edited November 17, 2016 by kili

[Jx223]

46 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

In one of the earlier episodes when the kids were 8 or 9, Rebecca told Kevin "be nice to your brother" which is kind of non-specific and weak, but parents tend to do shorthand like that all the time.  I'm beginning to be reminded of the old Downton Abbey days of who was worse, Mary or Edith?   These brothers aren't quite as horrible to each other (yet), but both have their parts in the rivalry.  And we see that as viewers, and come to have more empathy for one than the other, so it's no wonder that parents do, as well.  I would like to see more of Jack's interactions with them when spats happen. 

I think that was an indication that she wanted them to stick together. I believe that is what Jack and Rebecca wanted for their kids while they were growing up. I think that is a big reason why they called them "The Big Three". And why Jack was reluctant about sending Randall to the school for gifted children. He wanted them to stick together. 

Also since she referred to Randall as Kevin's little brother maybe she viewed and also treated Randall as the "baby" of the family.  (Even though they are all technically the same age.) A lot of us have seen/know/been apart of family situations where the baby of the family is treated at least a little differently. (Like maybe they are spoiled) Maybe Randall being viewed as the youngest also helps explains Rebecca's fondness for him. That and she may extra protective over him because she didn't want to feel like an outsider.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jx223

[GodsBeloved]

Trying to quote and reply to @Jx223 is just not working for me LOL

I don't disagree necessarily that Rebecca was trying to figure out what was best for both boys but I am lost as to why there was anything to figure out. It's 2am. Randall needs/wants to finish homework. Kevin wants/needs to go to sleep.

Randall go to the kitchen and finish. Kevin go to sleep.

If Rebecca wanted to dig into why they were in this situation, I think it would have been better to do that later, not at 2am on a school night when a quick and fair resolution was right there for the taking.

[PRgal]

1 minute ago, Jx223 said:

I think that was an indication that she wanted them to stick together. I believe that is what Jack and Rebecca wanted for their kids while they were growing up. I think that is a big reason why they called them "The Big Three". And why Jack was reluctant about sending Randall to the school for gifted children. He wanted them to stick together. 

Also since she referred to Randall as Kevin's little brother maybe she viewed and subsequently treated Randall as the "baby" of the family.  (Even though they are all technically the same age.) thlot of us have seen/know/been apart of family situations where the baby of the family is treated at least a little differently. (Like maybe they are spoiled) Maybe Randall being viewed as the youngest also helps explains Rebecca's fondness for him. That and she may extra protective over him because she didn't want to feel like an outsider.

Regarding Randall being the "baby":  I actually think Randall is the oldest of the three - he could even be a day older, since he was already left at the fire station.  But it's hard to say - if William didn't tell the fire chief anything about exactly which day, they could only assume.

[topanga]

14 minutes ago, Jx223 said:

Rebecca has a fondness for Randall but I do not believe she loves him more than Kevin. She has a better relationship with him but I believe she loves her children equally. I also think that may be how Rebecca sees thing as well. We have yet to get her perspective of things. When she is finally confronted by Kevin it wouldn't surprise me at all if she tells him that she loves them equally and believes she tried to treat them fairly. After processing things she may even come to realize and adrmit  that she worried about Randall more/didn't want him to feel like an outsider and that affected how she interacted with him.

I agree, but one of the hard things about being a parent is learning that little things that mean nothing to you can affect your children in profound ways. We have no idea how they're going to feel about things we say or do. 

Kevin mentioned as an 8-year old and again as an adult that Rebecca gave extra attention to Randall so he wouldn't feel "so adopted." And in contrast, she probably didn't give Kevin as much attention as he wanted and needed. I don't think Rebecca was trying to hurt Kevin, and she certainly didn't love Kevin less than she loved Randall. But her actions made Kevin feel like a second thought in their family. And in some ways, he felt like the outsider.

--Even when Kevin was going through his sullen teenager phase, it seems like neither Jack or Rebecca were able to tap into what he was going through emotionally. I wonder if they even tried. 

When my older son pointed out to me that I always took his younger brother's side in arguments, I had to think about it because I never did it intentionally. As it turns out, the older brother picked on his younger brother a lot, so I would often jump into the arguments to defend my younger son. From then on, I made a point to explain things more to both kids. I would say that I was jumping into the argument because of the bullying. And I made sure the older son knew he wasn't always wrong. 

[jeansheridan]

Also wanted to add I think it was interesting to see Rececca getting a late night snack.  One, two bites and she is good.  That would not be me.  Thin people use food as comfort too but they seem to be able to stop at a reasonable amount.  I am quite sure young Kate noticed this.  My mom was the same.  She could nibble whenever and no impact.  I cannot.  Frustratingly unfair. 

[Jx223]

23 minutes ago, kili said:

The best solution for both boys is to tell Randall to go study in the kitchen. That way he can do his homework with all the light he needs and use a proper surface (he was all bent over trying to do it on his nightstand with the light shining in the wrong direction). And that way, Kevin gets to sleep. The only other reasonable solution is to tell Randall to go to turn off the light and go to sleep since sleep is important too.

But Rebecca opts for neither of her solutions. Her offered solution is to tell Kevin that Randall has a lot of work to do and imply he should be more reasonable. That is a truly awful solution. Both boys get no sleep on a school night and the homework is done in less than optimal conditions. 

If Rebecca wasn't so completely biased between always being on Randall's side, she would have seen that. 

She is always disappointed in Kevin. Kevin who can't swim didn't keep an eye on his brother who could swim. Kevin who is 8 can't manage the difficult aspects of group pressure. Kevin complains that his brother steals his toys and finishes his game.  Kevin has never gotten a compliment or praise from her.

By the time he is 15, Kevin has given up expecting any from her.

She did at first try and get Kevin to see Randall's POV. But ultimately she ended up going along with the suggestion that Randall should go to the kitchen in an effort to reach a compromise and keep them together. Once Kevin rejected that she let him go to the basement which I think was something that he really wanted all along(to have his own space away from Randall.)

She didn't force Kevin to go the basement or even told him he had to do anything. She tried to get him to be more sympathetic towards Randall and when that failed backed Randall's suggestion of going to the kitchen so that they could stay together. And when that also failed let Kevin move into the basement. She tried.

I also don't think she was disappointed in Kevin for going to the basement. I think that she was disappointed that her boys keep fighting and it escalated to the point to where they now have to have separated rooms. Rebecca has expressed frustration on multiple occasions about the boys not getting along. In the pool she even expressed to Jack that she didn't understand why Kevin was so jealous of Randall. Their constant fighting bothered her.

I feel like both Randall and Rebecca tried to make Kevin happy at the end of the bedroom scene because they love him. But he was too antagonistic to see that.

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, Jx223 said:

I feel like both Randall and Rebecca tried to make Kevin happy at the end of the bedroom scene because they love him. But he was too antagonistic to see that.

I don't know if that is entirely true. I don't doubt that Rebecca loves Kevin. But she was taking Randall's side, as we've seen several times before. If this was Kevin who was keeping Randall awake, would she have defended Kevin? Or would she have told Kevin to go to sleep because it was 2am? I think it's easy to forget that we've only seen a small portion of Kevin's childhood, as well as Randall's. But from what we have seen, Rebecca has never taken Kevin's side over Randall's. She's always taken Randall's. 

In reality, she should have told Randall right away that it was 2am and to either go to sleep or study elsewhere. Instead, she made Kevin seem like he was wrong for asking to turn the light off ("oh, but your brother is so busy with football now that he doesn't have as much time to study"). Even if Kevin was being sullen and moody, even without considering him being a teenager, it's 2 in the morning! Most people would be cranky at that time if they were woken up to the light being on. Randall finally suggested a compromise, which is good of him, but the fact that Rebecca couldn't even come up with the solution herself and immediately took Randall's side is just one of many reasons why Kevin may resent Randall as well as Rebecca. 

I just think that as a mother, you should try your best to remain neutral in arguments such as this. She did not stay neutral. Kevin got fed up and finally moved to the basement, which present day Kevin and Randall recognized as a negative event. 

[Enigma X]

My thoughts on the Kevin/Randall light situation is Randall was being inconsiderate (although Kevin should not have thrown something in Randall's direction before asking Randall to turn off the light). I think Rebecca unwittingly did side with Randall, and it was more in her tone (as someone else said) than in what she actually did. I just get the feeling that Rebecca doesn't like putting her foot down. I thought when the Three were eight and Rebecca did not address the whole Webster situation that was also fairly passive parenting. This was another situation of passive parenting although Randall is her favorite.

[Jx223]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

Regarding Randall being the "baby":  I actually think Randall is the oldest of the three - he could even be a day older, since he was already left at the fire station.  But it's hard to say - if William didn't tell the fire chief anything about exactly which day, they could only assume.

It does seem like Randall should be the oldest kid. But it looks like maybe they are trying to say he is the youngest by referring as the "little brother".

28 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't know if that is entirely true. I don't doubt that Rebecca loves Kevin. But she was taking Randall's side, as we've seen several times before. If this was Kevin who was keeping Randall awake, would she have defended Kevin? Or would she have told Kevin to go to sleep because it was 2am? I think it's easy to forget that we've only seen a small portion of Kevin's childhood, as well as Randall's. But from what we have seen, Rebecca has never taken Kevin's side over Randall's. She's always taken Randall's. 

In reality, she should have told Randall right away that it was 2am and to either go to sleep or study elsewhere. Instead, she made Kevin seem like he was wrong for asking to turn the light off ("oh, but your brother is so busy with football now that he doesn't have as much time to study"). Even if Kevin was being sullen and moody, even without considering him being a teenager, it's 2 in the morning! Most people would be cranky at that time if they were woken up to the light being on. Randall finally suggested a compromise, which is good of him, but the fact that Rebecca couldn't even come up with the solution herself and immediately took Randall's side is just one of many reasons why Kevin may resent Randall as well as Rebecca. 

I just think that as a mother, you should try your best to remain neutral in arguments such as this. She did not stay neutral. Kevin got fed up and finally moved to the basement, which present day Kevin and Randall recognized as a negative event. 

I understand that so far that both Randall and Kevin have stated that they feel Rebecca favored Randall. But based of the scenes we have gotten so far I have viewed them as less about her taking Randall's side and more about her trying to deal with two fighting boys. Granted her reactions favored Randall more but I don't think she was trying to heavily favor Randall or come across as opposing Kevin. I also don't think she was worried about which kid's side she should take in those situations. She was trying to be a parent and allieviate the tension. Which I honestly think should have been her approach instead of worrying about taking anyone's side. I don't think she was concerned about taking anybody's side and that she just wanted her kids to get along. I think that she was trying to do what she thought was the right thing to do and come to a resolution in scenes like the bedroom scene.

I don't know what she would have said to Kevin had the situation been reversed. (Though I don't think she would made him sleep in the basement) But I haven't really seen her be very harsh with Kevin. Or even very unsympathetic to him. She has told him to get along with his brother and expressed concern about why they keep fighting. I haven't seen her try and punish him in an effort to take Randall's side. Or even really tell him that he's wrong about anything. I thought her telling him about Randall's situation in the bedroom scene was her way of trying to ease the tension and try and get him more sympathetic to Randall.That may have been her first attempt to get them to try and talk things out and reach some sort of compromise in that situation.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jx223

[Tikichick]

8 minutes ago, Jx223 said:

Randall seems like he should be the oldest kid. 

I understand that so far that both Randall and Kevin have stated that they feel Rebecca favored Randall. But based of the scenes we have gotten so far I have viewed them as less about her taking Randall's side and more about her trying to deal with two fighting boys. Granted her reactions favored Randall more but I don't think she was trying to heavily favor Randall or come across as opposing Kevin. I also don't think she was worried about which kid's side she should take in those situations. She was trying to be a parent and allieviate the tension. Which I honestly think should have been her approach instead of worrying about taking anyone's side. I don't think she was concerned about taking anybody's side and that she just wanted her kids to get along. I think that she was trying to do what she thought was the right thing to do and come to a resolution in scenes like the bedroom scene.

I don't know what she would have said to Kevin. But I haven't really seen her be very harsh with Kevin. Or even very unsympathetic to him. She has told him to get along with his brother and expressed concern about why they keep fighting. I haven't seen her try and punish him in an effort to take Randall's side. Or even really tell him that he's wrong about anything. I thought her telling him about Randall's situation in the bedroom scene was her way of trying to ease the tension and try and get him more sympathetic to Randall.That may have been her first attempt to get them to try and talk things out and reach some sort of compromise in that situation.

But Kevin voiced his concerns about needing sleep for the big game -- and was that concern acknowledged?  No, he heard about Randall's needs.

Factor in teenager and simply being tired and I don't think you'd find a teenager who would want to listen to their sibling's side at that point.  Matter of fact I'm not so sure you'd find many adults willing to engage in much diplomacy at that hour either.