S03.E10: The After Show

[cereality]

I’m not a fan of any of the sons in law including Jer, but when you see them vs. their spouses or even vs. the Duggar boys, you see how huge of a difference there is between the Duggars and even other fundie families.  While they were all raised batshit, it still seems like the Dillards, Seewalds, and Vuolos retained some interests besides God and have some sparks of enthusiasm about life.  I feel like all 3 sons in law are curious about the world and about people.  Bin shows it with his friendship with Flame and even at the football camp/pre game dinner.  All of those guys have told Bin there stories re football, music, growing up etc. and Bin seems genuinely interested and curious about what it’s like; he doesn’t seem at all turned off or intimidated or wanting to run away bc they aren’t white country boys like him.  Derick – he lived in Nepal for a few yrs and unlike his wife he also looks comfortable in Central America; he may not be doing much but it seems like he does like wandering the street, talking to locals etc. and just seeing what their lives are like.  Jer – he has actual friends; both friends that we saw were of minority backgrounds and it seemed like he gets along with them and is close with them like true friends – not made for TV relationships; I believe he played soccer overseas for a while; Korean BBQ is his favorite etc.  And we see the same thing with other fundies on TV – the Bates kids have a lot of personality and individual interests; and so do the Bates’ sons in laws who are from other fundie families.  Somehow only the Duggars have instilled this fear of – having any interests or friends other God and family is a sin . . . and now the Duggar kids aren’t exactly adjusting well to the world . . . .

[riverblue22]

Well, Jim Bob seems to have taken the cult a bit further with his plan of empire building.  He plans to keep them all within his sphere of influence and raised them with that in mind.  Gil Bates isn't handing out houses to his kids.  Gil doesn't even seem bothered by the fact that Zach lives close by and has a television.

[impatien]

I think Jill looked absolutely pregnant sitting on that couch. Did anyone else notice that belly?? Doesn't seem like that would be left over from Izzy.

[Absolom]

Yet in recent photos she is obviously not hugely pregnant.  I think perhaps it was a bad shirt choice.

I think another family that seems to be close to the Duggars in sheltering and fear of the world is the Maxwells.  There is something in the fathers' make up not just the belief system that creates these super control freaks.

[yogi2014L]

I hope maybe Miss Cathy sees how much of a mess Jill is and discourages Derrick from bringing her back. I feel like she just needs to be in her comfort zone for her and Izzy's safey. As much as I love to snark on these looney tunes I really would not want anything awful to happen to them and it seems that Derrick is making awful decisions about Jill or maybe doesnt want to acknowledge that his wife is not mentally stable enough to do missions

Maybe Derrick thinks Jill is going to be a hot mess in AR or Central America so whats the difference?

Additionally, I think Jessa would have been OK in Central America or Laredo- she seems stronger than the other two and probably would hunker down with another pastors wife or something or would be cool being alone

 I think Jinjer will be happy to bone Jeremy anywhere.  She can facetime Jessa when he is at work lol

I really wish someone will intervene for poor Jill. 

[Churchhoney]

34 minutes ago, riverblue22 said:

Well, Jim Bob seems to have taken the cult a bit further with his plan of empire building.  He plans to keep them all within his sphere of influence and raised them with that in mind.  Gil Bates isn't handing out houses to his kids.  Gil doesn't even seem bothered by the fact that Zach lives close by and has a television.

It's not the cult. It's Jizm Bob's Personal Sickness. It's the kind of insanely power-mad control freak that he is. It's his psychology. People who have his personality type don't need ANY religion to do the exact same thing to their kids. The exact same thing. It isn't religion. it isn't the cult. It's a sick and twisted person who's able to give free rein to his power urges and so they get stronger and stronger and stronger.

[sometimesy]

There is no way Derick should have to move back near the man who molested his wife or have his children around Josh. Many of us understand why he made the jump to Danger America. I'm sure JB is trying to bribe Derick with the Pool House, but Derick has an education that would allow them to stay independent of JB. JB you want the damaged human back? You purchase us a Pool House in a nearby district, but not close enough that the family is in our business. They can set down certain boundaries, but that Dugg family would only temporarily honor those requests and Jill would NEED them there more and more often. I feel really bad for Derick.

[LilJen]

6 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I'm not sure the country is really the issue. I think Jill needs to work through her feelings and learn to become more independent, not scared every time she is alone. Simple going back to being on her home turf and constantly surrounded by family members is not going to help her with this.

She's been taught her entire life that the world outside of Duggarville is dangerous, filled with temptations, and soiled with the work of the devil. Of COURSE she's terrified of the outside world. That will require some serious therapy to overcome--of course, first she has to admit that there's a problem.

[Sew Sumi]

2 hours ago, MarysWetBar said:

 

 

I think there is more going on with Joy besides being one point above a total illiterate. Kinda surprised she hasn't been sent to Alert, to be honest.

I get the Josiah vibe from her. 

Joy has been to Journey to the Heart at least once, when she was 15. If she's made a return visit since, they haven't advertised it like they have the boys' subsequent trips to ALERT. In Joy's case, I think that the girls pretty much just aged out of it: 2 were in relationships, Jana was running the house, and Jinger? Well, I guess she could have gone again. 

[cereality]

1 hour ago, riverblue22 said:

Well, Jim Bob seems to have taken the cult a bit further with his plan of empire building.  He plans to keep them all within his sphere of influence and raised them with that in mind.  Gil Bates isn't handing out houses to his kids.  Gil doesn't even seem bothered by the fact that Zach lives close by and has a television.

Yep. The Bates don't have any kind of empire -- they NEED their kids to figure out a job or whatever bc they know they can't give each kid a house. On top of that the Bates take the view of "normal" religious people. Kelly has said on their show -- this is how we raised our kids and these are the rules of our house, but when the kids are adults with their own homes they can make their own rules. That has led to Zach owning a TV. To Alyssa wearing pants and tank tops. To Erin (whether she was serious or not) saying this is child number 2 of 2 due to scary medical complications; now whether she sticks with that or not is up to her but her parents had nothing to say about it. Can you imagine if Jill or Jessa said I'm super scared of laboring again due to the C-section or transfusions or whatever last time, so this kid is an only or maybe one more and that's it. JB and Michelle would shame them to death and convince them they were going to hell. Gil and Kelly seem more "confident" -- i.e. we raised our kids with faith and we know they are faithful so we aren't worried they'll stray (too far) so we don't have to approve their every move.

Even though I think Derick WANTS to do missions and live abroad and not work a 40 hr week, I have to imagine that some small part of his thinking is to NOT be in Arkansas bc he doesn't trust Josh near his kids and he doesn't trust his wife and inlaws. In a "normal" family with a situation like molestation, I feel like a husband COULD say -- I know he's your bro, but he is not welcome in our home and our kids are not to be left in your parents home without us, ever. And I feel like most wives would "respect" that. Here -- I imagine the whole family has already forgiven Josh already because . . . Jesus camp. So I can see Jill just ignoring Derick and/or JB telling Derick he's being ridiculous and Derick gets strong armed into a situation where his kids are around Josh all the time and he spends the whole time wondering . . . did anything happen or could it have happened!?

[BunnyBlueBrown]

58 minutes ago, yogi2014L said:

Maybe Derrick thinks Jill is going to be a hot mess in AR or Central America so whats the difference?

Yes!!!! This!

[Sew Sumi]

56 minutes ago, sometimesy said:

There is no way Derick should have to move back near the man who molested his wife or have his children around Josh. Many of us understand why he made the jump to Danger America. I'm sure JB is trying to bribe Derick with the Pool House, but Derick has an education that would allow them to stay independent of JB. JB you want the damaged human back? You purchase us a Pool House in a nearby district, but not close enough that the family is in our business. They can set down certain boundaries, but that Dugg family would only temporarily honor those requests and Jill would NEED them there more and more often. I feel really bad for Derick.

The Pool House is basically right around the corner from the Duggar Compound. The kids used to go there to swim when Boob moved Venessa in there. I always wondered about WHY Boob did that, but I also remember Jana didn't go on to full midwife studies, and maybe at that time she was needed more at home than as a doula and quit. Heaven forfend Jilly Muffin travel anywhere (even to births) on her own. It's pretty clear to me now that when she finished her studies under Venessa, she also hitched a ride with her to the births. A Butterfly's Midwifery wasn't housed at the Pool House, so Jill would need a ride there as well. What a sad, wretched existence. 

[sometimesy]

5 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

The Pool House is basically right around the corner from the Duggar Compound. The kids used to go there to swim when Boob moved Venessa in there. I always wondered about WHY Boob did that, but I also remember Jana didn't go on to full midwife studies, and maybe at that time she was needed more at home than as a doula and quit. Heaven forfend Jilly Muffin travel anywhere (even to births) on her own. It's pretty clear to me now that when she finished her studies under Venessa, she also hitched a ride with her to the births. A Butterfly's Midwifery wasn't housed at the Pool House, so Jill would need a ride there as well. What a sad, wretched existence. 

Yep, that Pool House is too close, so the Dullards should insist on a Pool House equivalent more than a days drive away <- that is, if JB is trying to bribe them with the house.

[Sew Sumi]

It's possible that Boob has noticed Jilly Muffin's instability these past months, et voila! Pool House for her triumphant return from her experiences with the natives. SOMETHING went on. Their social media was always very positive; there was no Danger America talk there. That just started when they filmed this second season. 

Jessa, if you heard guns all the time when you were down there in March, why didn't you remark on how DANGEROUS it was for your sister to continue to live there? Didn't hear that. Nope. And TLC would ramp up that shit to 10000 if they could, because they live for that stuff. Jessa was covering Jill's ass on the couch. As someone else said, Jessa probably hears more gunshots during deer/duck hunting seasons in her backyard. 

It's not as if Jill didn't know the risks when they undertook this "mission." Derick claims they talked about contingency plans. Their house was fenced, gated, razor wired, and the back overlooked a fucking cliff. I don't think they could have been much more safe than where they were. I gave thought to the bathroom, and someone commented that on Jill's to-do list on last week's episode, it said "clean bathroomS." I guess the safe bathroom (assume it doesn't have windows to break) wasn't the one with the broken shower curtain. It IS weird that Jill kept saying "we" when  relating a story in which Derick was supposedly out preaching. Maybe she called him back in the middle of it from the safe room, not realizing what happened in the other bathroom? If something worse happened, why wouldn't they share that? It would certainly garner sympathy from even us. In this scenario, Derick probably came home, armed with cops, to find his wife and baby huddled in a bathroom with a broken shower curtain in the other. That still doesn't explain why Jill kept saying "We emailed" and "We asked for prayers." It's not adding up as a true story. 

I also wonder how much of this got out to their donors and got donations pouring in? They never indicated WHEN this actually happened; it could be a fresh wound, but there was enough footage of them in DA before their return to indicate she was having a tough time long before they filmed this in late August. 

[Absolom]

Quote

there was no Danger America talk there. That just started when they filmed this second season. 

Jill seemed fine for her when they were going to language school and lived in town in a different country.  It's only been since they moved to the "junglish" area that she's begun to lose it.  I think when she's in a more city atmosphere with things that are more like home she can handle it better. 

[Sew Sumi]

From what I understand, that house is basically right next to SOS HQ. However, I do think that the compound is out of the city limits, but not THAT far. People have looked it up, knowing where SOS Ministries is located. SOS built this house for the Dullards, so they certainly had safety measures built in when they purchased and built on the land. 

At any rate, the Dullard place is a fortress. And as I mentioned before, where were the armed guards? Stuff just doesn't add up, other than Jilly Muffin basically having a nervous breakdown. I've been there, hell, I'm in an extreme anxiety cycle now, so I know and actually empathize with her. I just can't imagine being a victim of Stockholm Syndrome (they all are) and having to latch onto another enabler to survive. Even John David can't leave. 

[Spencer Hastings]

Jill seems like one of those people who can't be alone.  In a normal setting she would be that girl who always had a boyfriend or the friend who follows you everywhere and gets mad when you make plans with someone else.  In her pre-marriage world, she was fine taking orders from JB and being head buddy.  When she got married and Derick went to work, she'd go to the compound or invite one of her buddies over. Then she would eat lunch in the car with Derick during his break.  She said she couldn't handle the silence and didn't know what to do with herself during the day.  Derick probably wouldn't have given her a list of tasks or chores do handle like JB did and when they went to Danger America, not being told what to do and always being alone with Izzy probably heightened her anxiety.

I definitely think there's more to the story than a towel rack falling.  Did it fall and scare her?  Probably.  Was there something that happened BEFORE that to make her have an over the top reaction?  I'd put money on it.  These people lie about little things that don't even matter for seemingly no reason.  I wouldn't put it past them to omit a serious incident.  Maybe they aren't allowed to talk about it or perhaps they genuinely don't feel comfortable sharing it with the world, but Derick needs to chill out on the martyr tour and get Jill some help.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by Spencer Hastings

[tenativelyyours]

I think though that if anything had happened to trigger the shower curtain from hell episode, we would have heard about it if it could be spun in a way that made them look even holier.  Dangerous people they faced with Bible in hand and Jesus in their hearts; refusing to back down from their mission?  Even as an anecdote that is pure TLC ratings gold. 

I think it is that Jill's world as she thought she could define it, then after the scandal broke, redefine it, collapsed and she is realizing that the one person she thinks she can count on is just not there for her.  And that the world is not a place the Duggars can move freely through as if they have a TLC camera crew and production paving the way. 

Plus she married a man she probably thought was going to take charge but do so in a way that perpetuated the life she has led and thought she was going to replicate with her own spin and herself as the star.  Instead she feels stuck and isolated and she doesn't know how to fix it.  And probably doesn't want to in part because she is not willing to take matters in hand and change them to such a degree that would enable such a fix.

I think a part of the appeal with Derrick was his ability to bridge her world with the world she romanticized.  She saw him as similar enough to not be frightening but exotic enough to have more than just the allure of being a man willing to say I do.  He also provided an escape and a reboot of her self-image following the outing of her pervert brother.  She was able to rebrand with little effort, becoming the mission wife to Danger America.  But deep down I think she wanted a Boob 2.0 in many ways.  Especially since she was seeing him and the world he built around them getting attacked in ways that were a bit harder to toss aside as heathen hate.  Throw in her own victimization and not being allowed to truly talked about it in any way but to defend the one person in it all who shouldn't have been by that point.

And there is Derrick.  Who is kind of creepy in his own way.  He is self-absorbed but in a lazy removed way.  I'm not sure if the mascot thing created this or he was drawn to it because that was already fully his nature.  But here is an awkward young man in his formative adult years getting tons of attention and adulation and seen as part of his school's elite in some ways and yet is only able to do so behind a mask.  Hidden.  In plain sight.  And that is kind of the allure of the missions I suspect as well.   He doesn't have to do anything of his own to simply stand out.  He looks and talks different and he can pat himself on the back for being so holy and brave.  All the while being pretty narrow minded and sanctimonious as his own words lately have proven.  He is there for himself in my opinion.  So ego driven and yet unable to actually take a social lead.  Unless he can hide behind a mask and outfit?  He is an interesting but sad and even scary creature to me in some ways.  I do think his saving grace may be his son.  But I hope part of that bond he seems to have is not something he relies on as the "love" someone needs as a parent in the family.  But I know some parents who seem to adore their kids until the kids develop enough to question and form opinions outside of the family's accepted creed. 

And don't forget that Jill is another that hides in plain sight.  She has lived a relatively privileged existence that is based on simply being part of the whole (the Duggars) without really having to take on an identity of her own for those privileges.  Post scandal she has had to try  keep what she is used to as an identity and yet try to rebrand it the same time.  And yet she is caught between forging her own life (but can't because it is the Duggar part -- sins included -- that bring her the things she has at least some idea she wants out of life) and stalled because she doesn't have the skills to forge her own way entirely or the emotional makeup to even want to or figure out if she wants to. 

Now I do think something happened in Danger America that tossed Jilly more than she could handle.  But I think it is something that she is not willing to admit to.  Something to do with her health.  Something to do with Derrick's abilities as a husband.  Maybe he simply has shown her no physical affection to go with what I see is a huge level of detachment and simple disinterest in her beyond someone hopefully doing the chores he doesn't want to do.  I think the problems are within the marriage and she faced some real crises of faith and what she thinks is the life she not just wanted and expected to lead but also the one she probably still feels she should.  Of them all, I think the pervert brother outing only made her drawn further into the world she was raised and her way to make the ugly go away is to pretend she can burrow more fully into it even though it doesn't really actually exist in a lot of ways.  Especially when she is miles away. 

And if Derrick not only can't relate but seems to not want to?  The man who is supposed to be the one she turns to?  Her leader in life after all things holy?  A man she has probably also built up as sort of infallible?  And he comes up really short?  Or even worse, refuses to take that position she shows she craves and needs and does so in a way that diminishes her and might even make her feel her future is threatened (refusing to sire more kids; refusing to not consider a safe life at "home").

I can see a sort of hysteria easily taking over her life.  She has always seemed a bit manipulative in her relationships with the siblings that became her sort of work peers.  She seemed to always have an exaggerated response to various things.  And how much of that was her way to stand out.  To get simple attention?  From an early age so she doesn't even realize she is doing it?  I saw self-induced hysteria and I have seen it in others who find life is going horribly wrong simply because it is not going right.  I think Jill feels these emotions are real, but that doesn't mean they come entirely from a real place.  She is not the best source for what I might consider worthy of those emotions.  And I don't have to consider them valid, but I also am not saying my thoughts on their validity make them less painful for her or something that desperately needs to be addressed.

So I do think things have occurred that pushed her off center in a serious way.  I just don't find it credible to try and take her emotionally raw state and reverse engineer some real trauma.  I think she was already off center just by being a Duggar, has no critical thinking and lacks any real crises management. Even if the crises are those simple matters that everyone faces in some way that is sad and challenging but also a part of life.  She simply does not have that ability.  I think with Jill and the crooked lump of clay she married, it wouldn't take much to spin her off course emotionally and careen like she did with that telling.

Throw in the pregnant sister, being home and no longer in a place she hated but also consider this "safe" place she is back in is where her pervert brother is and the family that is trying to redeem him and themselves without putting an ounce of actual responsibility or even contrition towards Jill and her sisters in any way. 

And I have always thought her mother was a curl short a full perm emotionally as well and whether by example or by hereditary or both, she probably helped create this spinning emotional top that is going all over the place if only because the Womb Factory was raised on this odd pedestal and I wonder if MEChelle is a private hysteric when things don't go her way?  She might take a lot of Starbucks to reach the blow point but it is those quiet apathetic ones who really get noticed and get the results when they decide to be an emotional chimp and rip everyone's faces off.

[DangerousMinds]

10 hours ago, yogi2014L said:

I hope maybe Miss Cathy sees how much of a mess Jill is and discourages Derrick from bringing her back. I feel like she just needs to be in her comfort zone for her and Izzy's safey. As much as I love to snark on these looney tunes I really would not want anything awful to happen to them and it seems that Derrick is making awful decisions about Jill or maybe doesnt want to acknowledge that his wife is not mentally stable enough to do missions

Maybe Derrick thinks Jill is going to be a hot mess in AR or Central America so whats the difference?

Additionally, I think Jessa would have been OK in Central America or Laredo- she seems stronger than the other two and probably would hunker down with another pastors wife or something or would be cool being alone

 I think Jinjer will be happy to bone Jeremy anywhere.  She can facetime Jessa when he is at work lol

I really wish someone will intervene for poor Jill. 

But doesn't their crazy belief system dictate that the husband is the headship of the relationship. He knows best, the wife's opinion does not really count for much because the man is providing everything, and his "knowledge" of a given situation is always greater than hers. So maybe he "prays on it." And concludes again that god is calling them to CA. 

I absolutely do not think that simply returning to the TTH and her fucked up family is the answer for Jill. In that atmosphere, she will NEVER gain any degree of strength or independence. Many/most of us were at least somewhat homesick when we first moved away from home. I certainly was when I first went away to college; after a few months I adjusted and everything was fine. My mom married my dad and they moved to another state away from their families because of his job. She cried every day and spoke to her parents constantly for months, but moving back wasn't an option. She eventually got used to it and thrived. 

[BetyBee]

Derrick is a crappy "headship".  He seems determined to follow his dream of "saving" Catholics and living in DA with no regard for his very fragile child bride.  She is clearly in distress and while he cares enough to hold her when she's crying, he doesn't care enough to get her help or to at least agree not to return to DA.  He set his damaged jaw and stated that they were back for a while.  He is not a good person.  At all.  

[Churchhoney]

On 10/26/2016 at 1:26 AM, sometimesy said:

Do the 9-5 thing again, but get your family away from JB or you ruin the next generation.

This is the Catch-22, isn't it? How would it even be possible? JB isn't going to let anybody escape. And he's implanted himself firmly in the kids' minds, and, especially, most likely, in the minds of the pets, like Jilly Muffin. Derick's got an impossible dilemma, seems to me.

The idea that Jill would be better off placed back in the bosom of her poisonous family, who made her into the terror-stricken embryo she is, is nuts, to me. That won't help her. It'll just reinforce all the things that have made her a person who can't cope with anything. Because that's what JB wants for his kids. Because otherwise he might not be able to keep them all under his thumb until he drops dead.

And he worsens it by making them believe that they are uniquely well prepared for life. There've been many written and spoken sermonettes over the years from Duggarlings spouting off about how Daddy has prepared them for life in ways far superior to how any other people are prepared.

So when they find themselves scared or daunted or incapable of something, they're guaranteed to be completely freaked out by it. Since if it daunts somebody as amazingly prepared as a Duggar, then it must surely be the end of the world or thereabouts. Derick's screwed. But he chose it. I feel bad that there's a third generation coming along to be fucked up. But then I alreadly feel bad about the second generation, so what else is new? And yet there's nothing anybody can do, unless a son- or daughter-in-law can actually pry a Duggarling loose and take them elsewhere, and to someplace congenial enough to Duggars (where would that be?) to keep them from freaking out.

[tabloidlover]

So much WORD to your entire post, Tentativelyyours!!    You expressed my thoughts so much more clearly than I could have.  

As SewSumi posted above

Quote

Stuff just doesn't add up, other than Jilly Muffin basically having a nervous breakdown. I've been there, hell, I'm in an extreme anxiety cycle now, so I know and actually empathize with her. I just can't imagine being a victim of Stockholm Syndrome (they all are) and having to latch onto another enabler to survive. Even John David can't leave.

Clearly there is something else that is not being shared with the viewers.  Jill truly looks to be on the verge of a serious nervous breakdown and merely remembering the fear she felt when the shower rack fell was enough to send her into a mini breakdown.  She cannot understand nor work through her anxiety as she has never been given the tools.   Derrick really looked not only unconcerned, but uncomfortable with her clinginess during the re-telling of the incident.  She was literally holding on for dear life while crying.  Very sad.  

Her multiple negative pregnancy tests are only adding to her anxiety as this is her only hope to stay in Arkansas with her family.   I think deep down she knows her headshit will be taking her down there again soon (if SOS will have them).  She is completely terrified and I don't think it ever leaves her thoughts.  

[Minivanessa]

Have mercy. That questionnaire for courting thing sounds a little familiar, so maybe I heard about it and then forgot it. But now I know that a guy who wants to court a Duggarette must fill out that gawdawful thing and hand it in to Jim Boob? And we know that Derick, Ben, and Jeremy really did?

Any lingering respect I had for any of those guys has gone poof into the wind. Whoever said upthread that the questionnaire weeds out all but the famewhoriest of the famewhores has nailed it. All three are creepy, but in my creepy index, Ben is the least creepy because he was so young. He was raised up in that serious fundie homeschooling culty stuff and was too young to have really had a chance to see anything else, and he was a hot mess of raging hormones who wanted to nail the Pretty Duggar Daughter. So, yeah, he probably printed out the questions and handed them in with all his answers handwritten with a flourish.

Next up the ladder of creepiness is Derick, the lost geek who probably had enough time on his hands in Nepal to imagine himself with a wonderful wife who'd be his life partner as a missionary, with the bonus of a big warm family of in-laws As Seen On TV.

And at the top, ringing all the Creep Alarm Bells - Jeremy. A man in his late 20's with a college degree from a REAL mainstream university, and a short career in professional sports. Who is a self-proclaimed preacher of the Gospel - a firmly bigoted anti-gay anti-Catholic kind of Gospel - and has admitted to famewhoring tendencies in himself. He handed in 100+ pages of answers to JB? Holy carp!

They are all crazy and creepy. But it seems that TLC is going to stick with the Duggars forever more. So TLC will work the wonders of "reality" TV and show us the cleaned-up and normalized versions. Ben's a cool young theology student with a heart to serve kids at football camp disadvantaged. Derick's a brave young missionary facing dangers to carry the Gospel to the Catholics lost heathens of Central America. Jeremy is a squirrelly looking failed soccer player turned fundie preacher who's thrilled to be on TV hot athlete who's devoted his life to God instead of mammon.

ETA: What kind of hoops must a young woman jump through, for JB to approve his son to court her? Questionnaire? OB-GYN exam? 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Jeeves

[Marigold]

10 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

From what I understand, that house is basically right next to SOS HQ. However, I do think that the compound is out of the city limits, but not THAT far. People have looked it up, knowing where SOS Ministries is located. SOS built this house for the Dullards, so they certainly had safety measures built in when they purchased and built on the land. 

At any rate, the Dullard place is a fortress. And as I mentioned before, where were the armed guards? Stuff just doesn't add up, other than Jilly Muffin basically having a nervous breakdown. I've been there, hell, I'm in an extreme anxiety cycle now, so I know and actually empathize with her. I just can't imagine being a victim of Stockholm Syndrome (they all are) and having to latch onto another enabler to survive. Even John David can't leave. 

You always know the geography details!  So their house is fenced in?  It's next to SOS headquarters?  From the TV shots, it looks like it's out in the open. 

If that is the case, I can't imagine anything too violent happened in their home.  Jill sounded more normal when I guessed that they had a break in and she was still really rattled from it. (PTSD?)       Uh uh...Jill is looking really unstable now.  

[yogi2014L]

3 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

But doesn't their crazy belief system dictate that the husband is the headship of the relationship. He knows best, the wife's opinion does not really count for much because the man is providing everything, and his "knowledge" of a given situation is always greater than hers. So maybe he "prays on it." And concludes again that god is calling them to CA. 

I absolutely do not think that simply returning to the TTH and her fucked up family is the answer for Jill. In that atmosphere, she will NEVER gain any degree of strength or independence. Many/most of us were at least somewhat homesick when we first moved away from home. I certainly was when I first went away to college; after a few months I adjusted and everything was fine. My mom married my dad and they moved to another state away from their families because of his job. She cried every day and spoke to her parents constantly for months, but moving back wasn't an option. She eventually got used to it and thrived. 

Yeah but you are comparing normal people to Jill. I think what Jill is experiencing is way beyond any homesickness that she can just get used to. She also had her completely bizarro cult upbringing. 

I would love for her to get serious help but we all know that isn't going to happen, and if she is unstable at home at least she has sister moms to help care for Izzy. Kind of like how the Duggars just let the M's back into the pack during the Josh scandals. 

[BitterApple]

I have a feeling Jill is going to end up as Michelle 2.0, completely checked out while Jana raises her brood for her. To Michelle's credit, she was at least seven kids deep before she went off the deep end. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by BitterApple

[bigskygirl]

Imo, I do not think Derick should be taking all the blame for what is going on with Jill. Yes, he should have seen the writing on the wall when he was courting her, but to blame him for the way Jill was and is not going to help either one of them out. If Jill has a serious mental illness, she needs to admit something is wrong and get the help. Derick should be supportive, but sadly he is her enabler in a way. In fact, the whole family is her enabler especially the older kids. I did not see one of her siblings reaching out and giving her support when she was talking about the fallen shower curtain. Yes, Jessa said she heard gunfire, but I do not see her statement as being supportive. Derick does not seem to happy with his life right now. He has certainly bitten off more than he can chew. I often wonder if Jill went along with Derick's dreams of being in another country saving the heathens because she wanted to keep her claws in him.. He was the first guy to show her attention, and she was a happy camper. And the worse part of it is, Izzy is paying the price for his parent's mistakes.

[Churchhoney]

39 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I have a feeling Jill is going to end up as Michelle 2.0, completely checked out while Jana raises her brood for her. To Michelle's credit, she was at least seven kids deep before she went off the deep end. 

Yeah, but depending on how you look at it, Jill has raised at least three kids or so already. And she seems to have taken that responsibility pretty seriously and have built bonds with them. And she did when she was a child herself. So she -- along with the other older girls -- has already felt some of that pressure. .... And involuntarily -- and inappropriately -- as well.

[Churchhoney]

44 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

Imo, I do not think Derick should be taking all the blame for what is going on with Jill. Yes, he should have seen the writing on the wall when he was courting her, but to blame him for the way Jill was and is not going to help either one of them out. If Jill has a serious mental illness, she needs to admit something is wrong and get the help. Derick should be supportive, but sadly he is her enabler in a way. In fact, the whole family is her enabler especially the older kids. I did not see one of her siblings reaching out and giving her support when she was talking about the fallen shower curtain. Yes, Jessa said she heard gunfire, but I do not see her statement as being supportive. Derick does not seem to happy with his life right now. He has certainly bitten off more than he can chew. I often wonder if Jill went along with Derick's dreams of being in another country saving the heathens because she wanted to keep her claws in him.. He was the first guy to show her attention, and she was a happy camper. And the worse part of it is, Izzy is paying the price for his parent's mistakes.

Bingo. And I doubt that Derick is well placed to grasp the implications of this, since nobody who had a fairly normal upbringing seems to be.

In a family like the Duggars, weakness, wants, needs, anything on that order on the part of a child is seen as an opportunity to pounce by the Head Bitches in Charge, whoever they are in the given situation. And it doesn't matter if the weakened person is a "pet." Pets are there to be lorded over, just like everybody else.

Weaknesses, wants, needs, emotions are just opportunities for the HBIC to get more power over you, manipulate and humiliate you,, and so on. And this fact is not lost on the rest of the underlings. Who will do whatever they can to avoid being implicated in your exposed weaknessess and, in many cases, will also participate in the attacks, at least in subtle ways. So Jill's not going to get any -- and I do mean any -- actual support from anyone in her family for her problems. She may get some false and phony support, poisoned with putdowns of some kind. But real help -- none.

So it's all on Derick. And I can't imagine what he could do except get a job out of state, pack up his family, move there, convince Jill that she must get therapy from real counselors, and not answer the phone or the email. Of course, given who he is, who she is, and how they got together, this is virtually impossible. They're screwed.

[bigskygirl]

Personally I do not think it should be all on Derick. Jill needs to admit she might have some serious issues and needs real counseling. Derick can suggest therapy, try to get her away from the family, and even get therapy himself, but until Jill admits she needs help herself, Derick is losing the battle. Talk about being on a ship going down and finding out Daffy Duck is in charge of saving the passengers and crew.

[Churchhoney]

5 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

Personally I do not think it should be all on Derick. Jill needs to admit she might have some serious issues and needs real counseling. Derick can suggest therapy, try to get her away from the family, and even get therapy himself, but until Jill admits she needs help herself, Derick is losing the battle. Talk about being on a ship going down and finding out Daffy Duck is in charge of saving the passengers and crew.

I agree. Ultimately she does. But given who Jill is and the nature of her suffocating background and where they are right now -- i.e., right in the middle of that -- I think the chances of her doing that now are slim to none. So either he gets them away from those influences, or it doesn't happen, I expect.

I know everybody wants to blame the Duggar kids, on the argument that everyone has it in their power to change -- or else they're just lazy jerks who should be written off, or whatever. But based on what I've seen, certain kinds of change are next to impossible for some people, especially if they're still in the situation that fostered their problem. I expect we'd better walk a mile in Jill's moccasins before we say -- Oh, she can change; she just won't. Not so easy as we expect, I imagine.

If Derick gets them away from there to some place that feels safe to her (although I don't know where that would be, for a fragile Duggar), then she probably has a shot at figuring things out and asking for help. I doubt that Derick understands the situation, though. So I expect he'll either drag her away too far or leave her there in the poison, not really getting how potent that poison still his to the adult kids. And if he does, my bet is that they're screwed. I don't think Jill has whatever it takes to see reality if she's on the compound. Would be nice if she did, but I doubt it.

[bigskygirl]

Sadly, Derick getting her away from her family and suffocating background will not solve her mental and physical state problems. I admit Jill and Derick drive me bonkers to the point where I want to reach for the chocolate and root beer, but I still feel bad for them. The poor girl has been drinking the Kool-Aid for so long she is up to her neck in it. I want to slap JB and Michelle for doing this to her. It burns my butter to see how they can justify the damage they have done to their own children and hide behind God and blame the devil for all the bad things. Take a long hard look in the mirror JB and Michelle because you are the major factor for the way your children have turned out.

[ginger90]

If Jessa was at 17.5 weeks for this, and she recently posted a 25 week photo, shouldn't Jeremy and Jinger be married by now? Or was Jinger's 3 week comment supposed to appear as if it were in actual time?

[saylubee]

Right before Jill talked about the shower rack falling, Derick mumbled something to the effect of, "We don't talk about the specifics of what happens because it doesn't help the ministry."  As others, I highly suspect something else happened but the contract with SOS prevents them from talking about it.  It doesn't look so good to college-age "missionaries" and their parents that the company can't even keep Jill, Derick & Izzy safe.

Jim Bob and Michelle had an impromptu visit in February, I think, where they brought the AC units.  Then there was a major emphasis on doors and windows needing to be shut and locked at all times this season.  

I suspect the shower rack story was supposed to be one of those anecdotes that highlight how "scary" Danger America really is without actually talking about any one specific incident.  Only problem was Jill couldn't keep it together and laugh about it yet.

[laurakaye]

47 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

Personally I do not think it should be all on Derick. Jill needs to admit she might have some serious issues and needs real counseling. Derick can suggest therapy, try to get her away from the family, and even get therapy himself, but until Jill admits she needs help herself, Derick is losing the battle. Talk about being on a ship going down and finding out Daffy Duck is in charge of saving the passengers and crew.

I agree 100%...but can Jill realistically do this?  From what I've seen, I don't think it's within her thought processes to speak up about something not being right, because wouldn't that mean that she simply hasn't prayed hard enough?

With my own experiences, I absolutely could've spoken up about the fact that I felt sad and somewhat empty after having my second baby.  It took me a full year to talk to my doctor about it because I thought that it would eventually go away on its own, and furthermore, what on earth did I have to be depressed about in the first place?  I also thought that if I just kept myself really busy, I wouldn't have to think about it.  This is why my heart aches for Jill, and also Jana, who I think is filling her life with busyness so she never has to stop and be alone with her feelings.

I'm not even sure Derrick can think this through clearly and admit to himself that the lifestyle he's chosen for him and his family is not going to work.  Perhaps Derrick's mom can be impartial and observant enough to talk to Jill?  We all know Michelle is too checked out of reality to even notice she has a Jill.  And freakin' Jessa couldn't even be bothered to pat Jill on the shoulder when Jill sat sobbing in the post-Josh scandal interview.  Jill has no one to turn to in her immediate family.  Because even if her family senses something is wrong, they won't do anything about it.

Edited October 27, 2016 by laurakaye

[Churchhoney]

21 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

Sadly, Derick getting her away from her family and suffocating background will not solve her mental and physical state problems. I admit Jill and Derick drive me bonkers to the point where I want to reach for the chocolate and root beer, but I still feel bad for them. The poor girl has been drinking the Kool-Aid for so long she is up to her neck in it. I want to slap JB and Michelle for doing this to her. It burns my butter to see how they can justify the damage they have done to their own children and hide behind God and blame the devil for all the bad things. Take a long hard look in the mirror JB and Michelle because you are the major factor for the way your children have turned out.

Oh, I agree that getting her away won't be a solution. But unless he does get her away, I don't think there's a chance in the world that she'll have any kind of awakening any time soon, or ever. If she is away, and away for some time, and in a place where she doesn't feel too vulnerable, then I'm pretty sure there is a chance that she might wake up, start to see a little light, and maybe get on the road to helping herself. I've seen that happen. So I know it can. Hanging around the compound, though? Much less likely she'll ever see sense and realize she could use outside help. That's why I insist that Derick has to get her away, to some place where she feels safe, or else all is lost. That's why I'm putting it all on Derick. She might be able to change. But not while she's in the bubble.

The thing about JB and M is -- Of course they're not going to see that they've done anything bad to anybody. In their eyes, Jill's exactly the way she should be and, not coincidentally, exactly the way they want her. She's completely dependent on them, has absolutely no independence, sees the world as a terribly dangerous and horrifying place just as they told her it was, folds like a cheap suit when away from them and runs right back to them, and thereby acknowledges that they are the be-all and end-all of life and her supreme overlords. That's what they want from all their kids. And they're getting it from Jill. So they're happy as larks, I expect. They see no reason to look in the mirror because the kids' dependence and weakness is their mirror -- and what it mirrors back to them is their strength and fabulousness and utter correctness about everything. They're despicable. But they've also been a huge success in what they've tried to do -- give birth to such a huge bunch of unquestioning slaves that they get fame and money because of it -- so they'll never find out that they're despicable, I expect. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Minivanessa]

And, TLC will keep on taping and showing sanitized "normalized" versions of Duggar life. With coordinated People magazine stories. JB and Michelle win, and keep on winning. 

[bigskygirl]

Too bad Derick's step dad could not come and help Jill and Derick out because he does not seem to be drinking the Kool-Aid at all. Of course, anyone who speaks ill of the almighty Duggars are considered the enemy. I do find interesting how Derick was happy Jill's sisters are around to help take care of Izzy. Does he think Izzy is the root of Jill's problems? He might be feeling overwhelm with getting married and having a kid so quickly. Something is not right with either one of them in my opinion.

[laurakaye]

Oh @Churchhoney...I suspect you are absolutely correct about JB's and Michelle's motives.  Such a sick and twisted way to raise human beings.

So in Fundieland, do the parents give a moment's thought about what happens after they are gone and they have a posse of people they've raised to be completely dependent on them?  Just wondering how they justify themselves.

[BitterApple]

I don't have kids, so maybe those who do can answer this question for me: Is Izzy some horribly monstrous abnormal toddler whose behavior necessitates an army of caregivers to help Jill make it through the day? He seems like a fairly agreeable kid to me. Why do these people even have children when they apparently don't enjoy raising them?

[sometimesy]

Putting the Dullards back on the compound threatens the next generation. Izzy and siblings should not be sacrificed on the alter of Jill. It won't be perfect being raised by a mother who sees them as IIII IIII, but it's better than being completely immersed in that failed system. Maybe Jill, would do better if she had her kids in a Christian school of some sort where she could volunteer. Let's not forget, Jill didn't do that well in the McMansion which was a short drive from the TTH. Derick couldn't hold a normal job because of the show and couldn't have a normal work relationship at lunch time because he had to babysit his wife. Derick will probably have to surrender his plans of a mission, even though we now know he filled out the ridiculous questionnaire and when the family was hiding all kinds of bullshit. His in-laws spouted Jill's heart for missions, great match, blah, blah. The most important person here is Izzy, keep him away from the cult so he doesn't end up like his mother.  

[saylubee]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

I don't have kids, so maybe those who do can answer this question for me: Is Izzy some horribly monstrous abnormal toddler whose behavior necessitates an army of caregivers to help Jill make it through the day? He seems like a fairly agreeable kid to me. Why do these people even have children when they apparently don't enjoy raising them?

I don't think Izzy is an abnormal toddler.

But I do not think that Derick and Jill were ready for children yet.  Jill spent a lot of time around kids, but she never really raised the babies.  Then Michelle and JB blanket-trained the older toddlers while not paying much attention to the Howlers and younger.  So for Jill, I don't think she truly knew what raising a child was all about even though she's been around plenty.  I'm sure she remembered her childhood where the kids sat around on blankets all day playing quietly.  She would have been around for the Howlers, but she wasn't their mother and was a teenager at best.  She wouldn't have the instincts that jumping off the back of a couch was necessarily a bad or dangerous thing, for example.  Derick doesn't seem like he spent any time around kids, so his experience probably did come from TV shows, reality or sitcoms, where you're seeing the most sanitized version of someone's life.

Then Jill probably does feel overwhelmed in the fact that she's lonely.  She doesn't get to talk to her family every day, Derick is away doing god knows what, and she can't make friends because she doesn't speak Spanish.  If Izzy is anything like my toddler, he probably hates spending all day inside with one Mom, no playmates, and few toys so he would be pretty fussy.  I would guess that Jill counts down the minutes until nap time and feels overwhelmed when the routine changes (like Izzy not wanting to nap, or fighting feeding times, or general toddler tantrums) because she loses more and more of herself.

[sometimesy]

Anyone have the niggling feeling that the Dullards have already made a decision to end their mission 'overseas', are making a case for their decision through the episodes and are just keeping that donation button going as long as possible?

[Churchhoney]

46 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

Too bad Derick's step dad could not come and help Jill and Derick out because he does not seem to be drinking the Kool-Aid at all. Of course, anyone who speaks ill of the almighty Duggars are considered the enemy. I do find interesting how Derick was happy Jill's sisters are around to help take care of Izzy. Does he think Izzy is the root of Jill's problems? He might be feeling overwhelm with getting married and having a kid so quickly. Something is not right with either one of them in my opinion.

Mine, too. Nuts and insular as they are, I do think that they're probably both people who mean well, which makes it sadder. It's a terrible situation they're both in, and it probably would be even for people a lot quicker on the uptake and more independent than they are, I expect. Craziness like the Duggar parents doesn't come along every day, thank goodness, but I fear that means that nobody has a good handle on how to deal with it.

And given that Derick and Jill are both a little dim and both, I think, people who want to have somebody to follow rather than finding their own way, they're really in a mess.

48 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Oh @Churchhoney...I suspect you are absolutely correct about JB's and Michelle's motives.  Such a sick and twisted way to raise human beings.

So in Fundieland, do the parents give a moment's thought about what happens after they are gone and they have a posse of people they've raised to be completely dependent on them?  Just wondering how they justify themselves.

Good question. I expect that JB and M believe their own press -- that they're actually raising particularly competent and capable children. That's their story and they're sticking to it, I'll bet.

[Churchhoney]

48 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I don't have kids, so maybe those who do can answer this question for me: Is Izzy some horribly monstrous abnormal toddler whose behavior necessitates an army of caregivers to help Jill make it through the day? He seems like a fairly agreeable kid to me. Why do these people even have children when they apparently don't enjoy raising them?

I wonder whether part of this is that they're just used to having everything, especially child raising, done in crowds. They like crowds. As long as they're crowds of people just like them.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I think a lot of Jill's anxiety, which we saw come out about the fallen shower rack (but was not about the shower rack incident at all), is that she's caught between her two headships. While in theory, Derrick should be her headship now. But we all know that JB was such a figure of absolute control and brainwashing, I'm sure that Jill also still thinks of him as her headship. This is further compounded by the fact that JB offers pool houses and the Duggar name keeps them on TV/in the media. He is the third person in their marriage - still trying to control Jill, even though she has a new headship. The new headship wants them to break away from the family, live away from vile Josh, and have a somewhat Fundie-Bohemian missionary life complete with man-buns and interpretive dance. I also suspect that Derrick was pretty freaked out by the traumatic birth Jill had and how she's reacted to being a mom without a gaggle of sister-moms to help 24/7. He probably didn't spend much time around babies 24/7 before Izzy was born and now sees how much work they are. My guess is Derrick wants less blessings and is either not  sleeping with Jill, paying attention to natural family planning, or the Lord has laid it on his heart to pull out and pray. But JB wants his Jilly Muffin under his thumb on the compound, ready to shoot more scenes for the show without the crew having to be paid go "overseas," pressuring her to have more blessings and pressure Derrick to get rid of the man-bun. Jill is probably stuck in the middle between the two men she loves the most - her dad and her husband. She was brought up that her husband is her new headship but she also spent decades under JB's headship and he's no doubt still trying to exercise control over her today. Many of us have probably been caught in arguments and power plays between our birth families/parents and spouses/partners before and it sucks. Jill's life is like that 24/7 but on steroids. I hope that what I'm trying to say makes sense.

Also, I can totally see Jill having some sort of mental illness/anxiety disorder. I'm pretty sure Michelle has one, although I thought that was the result of so many blessings. But maybe it's just something she and her perhaps her progeny are genetically predisposed to (and obviously having several blessings doesn't help). 

Edited October 27, 2016 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

5 hours ago, Jeeves said:

What kind of hoops must a young woman jump through, for JB to approve his son to court her? Questionnaire? OB-GYN exam? 

I assume the questionnaire would look like this:

1) Are you okay with coming to live at Duggar compound & working for the family business (fame-whoring, reproducing endlessly, and doing domestic labor at the TTH)?

2) Are you okay with JB being your actual headship but always pretending like your husband is the headship?

3) Are you okay with your children being around the pervy oldest Duggar brother, Josh?

4) Are you okay with acting like Josh never did anything wrong because Jesus?

5) If something else happens in the family like what happened with Josh, will you keep quiet about it and accept that it is no big deal?

6) Will you ever dare to try to use Michelle's elliptical machine?

7) Will you continually praise JB and Michelle as awesome parents and a perfect example of a married couple on social media and TV?

8) Will you continually praise Michelle as the ultimate role model for moms on social media and TV?

9) Are you okay with your kids getting no more than a 6th (to maybe 8th) grade level education?

10) Are you willing to have multiple pregnancies with no prenatal care except some advice (perhaps via Skype) from resident Duggar "midwife" Jill?

11) Are you willing to give birth at home, on camera, with no licensed medical providers around and only get true medical care if you hemorrhage profusely or discover after days of labor that you will have to have a C-section?

12) Do you promise never to mow the lawn while wearing swimwear?

13) Is male pattern baldness a turnoff for you?

And hahaha, we know there'd be no OB/GYN exam (as gross as that requirement would be) because the Duggars (with the exception of Mother Michelle) don't see OBs/GYNs unless they are rushed to the hospital with complications from a home-birth gone wrong.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[88Keys]

23 hours ago, lianau said:

23. Would you be willing to die for Christ? If you’re not dying daily, how can you be so sure you would then?

Huh?? Is this The Walking Dead now ? Groundhog Day ?

It is a reference to a Bible verse about dying to selfish desires.  Not literally dying.

[Churchhoney]

25 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I assume the questionnaire would look like this:

1) Are you okay with coming to live at Duggar compound & working for the family business (fame-whoring, reproducing endlessly, and doing domestic labor at the TTH)?

2) Are you okay with JB being your actual headship but always pretending like your husband is the headship?

3) Are you okay with your children being around the pervy oldest Duggar brother, Josh?

4) Are you okay with acting like Josh never did anything wrong because Jesus?

5) If something else happens in the family like what happened with Josh, will you keep quiet about it and accept that it is no big deal?

6) Will you ever dare to try to use Michelle's elliptical machine?

7) Will you continually praise JB and Michelle as awesome parents and a perfect example of a married couple on social media and TV?

8) Will you continually praise Michelle as the ultimate role model for moms on social media and TV?

9) Are you okay with your kids getting no more than a 6th (to maybe 8th) grade level education?

10) Are you willing to have multiple pregnancies with no prenatal care except some advice (perhaps via Skype) from resident Duggar "midwife" Jill?

11) Are you willing to give birth at home, on camera, with no licensed medical providers around and only get true medical care if you hemorrhage profusely or discover after days of labor that you will have to have a C-section?

12) Do you promise never to mow the lawn while wearing swimwear?

13) Is male pattern baldness a turnoff for you?

And hahaha, we know there'd be no OB/GYN exam (as gross as that requirement would be) because the Duggars (with the exception of Mother Michelle) don't see OBs/GYNs unless they are rushed to the hospital with complications from a home-birth gone wrong.  

Well, if they don't have these questions on their list, they're definitely adding them now. Perfect.

[88Keys]

20 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

There are so many explanations and non-explanations for Jill's reaction for the shower fixture incident of 2016. Like other posters have said, most of us have been scared or startled by a noise, and then laughed about it later. She may be scared, hyper alert and experience anticipatory anxiety when in CA, but crying about a non-incident days or months later is not a typical response for anyone, even someone with an anxiety disorder or PTSD. I think it is more likely that they are not sharing the details of a significant event, and Jill recalled this event when telling the bathroom story. Other than that, Jill's tearful presentation while sharing what would be a comical story for most folks, is very atypical. 

I disagree- it actually seems very typical for people who truly have PTSD or anxiety.  The question is what happened to Jill tha caused her to have PTSD?  Or has she had anxiety for years now?  

19 hours ago, MarysWetBar said:

 

 

I think there is more going on with Joy besides being one point above a total illiterate. Kinda surprised she hasn't been sent to Alert, to be honest.

I get the Josiah vibe from her. 

Girls can't go to ALERT.  It's a sorta-military training thing for boys.