S18.E05: Rape Interrupted

[WendyCR72]

For the record, "Unstoppable", the original episode that was to air on 10/26, is now scheduled for 11/16. So far.

Quote

A sergeant makes Benson choose between loyalty and duty when his son is accused of rape.

[CleoCaesar]

The inevitable Brock Turner episode. Meh. I liked it more than the other 4 episodes this season but that's not saying a whole lot. It's not THAT interesting when it so closely follows real-life events. I don't need a reenactment, you know? The one change (Ellis apologized, acknowledged wrongdoing and took responsibility) wasn't satisfying enough.

Laughed out loud at the defense lawyer's "your liberal feminist social justice warrior friends" line.

[Spartan Girl]

This was the first episode this season that I felt was halfway decent. Also the first episode where Liv was in the right without being sactimonious.

But man, that enabling dad pissed me off, complaining about the "rigged" system and trying to to emotionally blackmail Liv for covering for her back when she was a rookie. Dude, your son raped an unconscious woman in the garbage! I'm glad Liv told him that she wished he never covered for her in the first place.

[Mary Ann]

I think this show missed a very important point.  They got very close when the defense attorney played the phone call made to the cousin when the girl was drunk.  She was obviously drunk, she was talking and functioning, but she didn't remember making the call.  When you drink excessively, you can pass out, meaning that you are unconscious, not functioning at all.  You can also black out, which means you appear to be functioning, talking, having sex, etc., but you don't remember it the next day.  In such a state a girl can certainly consent and participate in the sex yet not remember it.  If that happens, she might think she was raped when it doesn't appear that way at all to the man.  This could also happen to a man.  He could have sex, enjoy it, etc., then not even remember it the next day.  The woman might remember it as a romantic encounter, then feel the man just used her if he doesn't call her afterwards.  She might then decide she was raped to save face.  Alcohol is a very dangerous substance, and I believe it has wrecked many lives of both men and women.

[yogi2014L]

I didn't like the rapid change of heart from the rapist. he couldn't even apologize at first because he was sooo innocent-and all it took was his dad lying for him? Not the victims statement? Otherwise it was an ok episode, at least I wasn't on the rapist's side this time lol.  I actually don't know what I thought. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by yogi2014L

[chick binewski]

I didn't love this. The apology & confession would have had more impact if they weren't working on making Ellis look innocent; why the change of heart after turning down no jail time? Nice to see Anthony Edwards, though.

I wanted to post this here because Edwards (and Cragen yay!) are in this extended PSA for Joyful Heart that aired during the show.

[yogi2014L]

Just now, Mary Ann said:

I think this show missed a very important point.  They got very close when the defense attorney played the phone call made to the cousin when the girl was drunk.  She was obviously drunk, she was talking and functioning, but she didn't remember making the call.  When you drink excessively, you can pass out, meaning that you are unconscious, not functioning at all.  You can also black out, which means you appear to be functioning, talking, having sex, etc., but you don't remember it the next day.  In such a state a girl can certainly consent and participate in the sex yet not remember it.  If that happens, she might think she was raped when it doesn't appear that way at all to the man.  This could also happen to a man.  He could have sex, enjoy it, etc., then not even remember it the next day.  The woman might remember it as a romantic encounter, then feel the man just used her if he doesn't call her afterwards.  She might then decide she was raped to save face.  Alcohol is a very dangerous substance, and I believe it has wrecked many lives of both men and women.

I thought it was going to go that way- drunk means you can't consent and I ALMOST thought they would have played the fact that he was drunk too and maybe she was the one who raped him. Just something to think about when you have two drunk people. 

[CleoCaesar]

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She was obviously drunk, she was talking and functioning, but she didn't remember making the call.  When you drink excessively, you can pass out, meaning that you are unconscious, not functioning at all.

Great points, Mary Ann. Unfortunately in the current climate one can't raise points like that without being accused of "victim blaming". IMO the pendulum has swung so ridiculously in the other direction. Women seem to want to drink a gallon of alcohol and just expect the world to be safe and perfect with no horny unprincipled people in it. That's just not how it works. People - male and female - have to keep themselves as safe as reasonably possible and not put themselves into dangerous stupid situations, like passing out behind a dumpster. It doesn't give anyone the right to hurt them and it's still 100% the rapist's fault. But people need to know their own limits too and at least try to be safe.

The defense attorney DID make a great point, as you said. If I were on that jury, I would genuinely have no idea what to believe. Reasonable doubt all over the place.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I didn't care for this one. I'm so used to the big twist that I was expecting some big twist towards the end.  I was surprised that the rapist plead guilty.  I didn't expect them to wrap it up so quickly. 

[RafaelBarbas]

I really liked this episode. Best of the season IMO.

[Mary Ann]

1 minute ago, yogi2014L said:

I thought it was going to go that way- drunk means you can't consent and I ALMOST thought they would have played the fact that he was drunk too and maybe she was the one who raped him. Just something to think about when you have two drunk people. 

If drunk means you can't consent, then the number of rapes that happen is absolutely sky high.  I used to be one of those drunk girls decades ago (I'm a recovering alcoholic with almost 34 years of sobriety.)  Back then I got myself into bad situations that I regretted the next day.   But I always saw that I had done it to myself by being drunk and out of control of myself.  Now I'm the mother of a son not much older than Ellis in the show.  It gives me the screamin willies to think of my son being drunk and with a drunk girl who might claim he raped her.  The "liberal feminist social justice warriors" are definitely egging this thing on without stopping to think that sometimes women put themselves into bad situations and don't look out for themselves.  When I was young, feminism was all about women being able to take care of themselves.  I don't know why it changed to what it is now that women aren't responsible for themselves, that men are the ones responsible for whatever happens to them.  Both genders play a role in a drunken sexual encounter.

[yogi2014L]

27 minutes ago, Mary Ann said:

If drunk means you can't consent, then the number of rapes that happen is absolutely sky high.  I used to be one of those drunk girls decades ago (I'm a recovering alcoholic with almost 34 years of sobriety.)  Back then I got myself into bad situations that I regretted the next day.   But I always saw that I had done it to myself by being drunk and out of control of myself.  Now I'm the mother of a son not much older than Ellis in the show.  It gives me the screamin willies to think of my son being drunk and with a drunk girl who might claim he raped her.  The "liberal feminist social justice warriors" are definitely egging this thing on without stopping to think that sometimes women put themselves into bad situations and don't look out for themselves.  When I was young, feminism was all about women being able to take care of themselves.  I don't know why it changed to what it is now that women aren't responsible for themselves, that men are the ones responsible for whatever happens to them.  Both genders play a role in a drunken sexual encounter.

ITA 100%. I mean, what if someone consents drunkenly then passes out mid sex? That's a totally grey area. 

Also if drunk guy has sex with drunk girl, then she says rape because she was too drunk to consent- couldn't the guy also say he was too drunk to consent? 

ETA: I'm not trying to victim blame here, and I do think having sex with a passed out woman is anything other than rape ( the case of the girl who was transported from house to house and videotaped comes to mind- awful).

It gets hairy to me if it starts consensual and then she passes out mid sex  or maybe is totally consenting but doesn't remember and maybe guy is too drunk to notice? IDK

Also, I am also someone who has been blacked out and completely 100% functional- not even slurring (according to friends), so I can see how I would seem fine to consent... so If i don't remember saying yes but I seemed fine and was fine - how would anyone know I was really drunk?

Edited October 27, 2016 by yogi2014L

[Mary Ann]

4 minutes ago, CleoCaesar said:

Great points, Mary Ann. Unfortunately in the current climate one can't raise points like that without being accused of "victim blaming". IMO the pendulum has swung so ridiculously in the other direction. Women seem to want to drink a gallon of alcohol and just expect the world to be safe and perfect with no horny unprincipled people in it. That's just not how it works. People - male and female - have to keep themselves as safe as reasonably possible and not put themselves into dangerous stupid situations, like passing out behind a dumpster. It doesn't give anyone the right to hurt them and it's still 100% the rapist's fault. But people need to know their own limits too and at least try to be safe.

The defense attorney DID To make a great point, as you said. If I were on that jury, I would genuinely have no idea what to believe. Reasonable doubt all over the place.

Thanks.  Yeah, I know, the current climate seems to say that women bear no responsibility at all for what happens to them.  This is a complete flip-flop on how feminism started out, that women were totally capable of taking care of themselves, that they "needed a man like a fish needs a bicycle."  I think the show left it very ambiguous whether Ellis decided to keep having sex with her knowing she was "passed out."  I think a good case could be made that she did not appear "passed out" to him, that he confessed in the end just to keep his father from jeopardizing himself.  The show, unfortunately, seemed to be making a big point about victims not giving consent.  I think a much better show could have been made by pointing out how alcohol effects the brain in such a way that women may appear to give consent while very drunk and men become victims when they are accused of rape in the confusion.

[Mary Ann]

3 minutes ago, yogi2014L said:

ITA 100%. I mean, what if someone consents drunkenly then passes out mid sex? That's a totally grey area. 

Definitely, and I'm sure it happens.  The woman consents in a black out (still functioning), passes out in the midst of it all (a man isn't necessarily looking into the woman's eyes or face in the midst of coitus as Sheldon would say), and the man completely misses that very subtle point in which the woman goes from black out (which the man is totally unaware of in the first place because she appears to be functioning fine) into pass out (unconsciousness).  The next day the woman is sore and can't remember anything.  She was raped!  It is an ungodly mess when sex with a stranger is indulged in with copious amounts of alcohol in the mix.  It strikes me as unfair and wrong that a drunk young man pays the price when both people created the mess.

[Mary Ann]

10 minutes ago, yogi2014L said:

ITA 100%. I mean, what if someone consents drunkenly then passes out mid sex? That's a totally grey area. 

Also if drunk guy has sex with drunk girl, then she says rape because she was too drunk to consent- couldn't the guy also say he was too drunk to consent? 

A guy should definitely be able to say that, but the current political climate is all about making ogres out of men for all kinds of reasons.  The liberal feminist social justice warriors are prevailing because our political leaders find political expedience in doing it that way.  

[Mary Ann]

23 minutes ago, yogi2014L said:

ITA 100%. I mean, what if someone consents drunkenly then passes out mid sex? That's a totally grey area. 

Also if drunk guy has sex with drunk girl, then she says rape because she was too drunk to consent- couldn't the guy also say he was too drunk to consent? 

ETA: I'm not trying to victim blame here, and I do think having sex with a passed out woman is anything other than rape ( the case of the girl who was transported from house to house and videotaped comes to mind- awful).

It gets hairy to me if it starts consensual and then she passes out mid sex  or maybe is totally consenting but doesn't remember and maybe guy is too drunk to notice? IDK

Also, I am also someone who has been blacked out and completely 100% functional- not even slurring (according to friends), so I can see how I would see fine to consent... so If i don't remember saying yes but I seemed fine and was fine - how would anyone know I was really drunk?

Exactly!  And drunk people often aren't thinking about how drunk they really are.  Your brain is just not working right, and the part of your mind that provide judgement and discernment are completely squelched and deadened by the alcohol.  The inhibitions that would normally be in place are no longer there.  It is a dangerous situation, and the current climate makes it even more dangerous.  In addition to unwanted pregnancy, stds, and the usual dangers, one must also add, "You might go to prison and have your life ruined.  .  .  . if you are a man who got drunk."

[Aliconehead]

Yes it is rape if one party is drunk or high. They can't give consent. Think of it this way, if they can't legally drive they CAN NOT give consent. How about teaching people not to have sex with people while drunk. If you want to have sex with a drunk person, wait until they are sober. You are assured there will not be a problem then. Sex is really not that important to risk jail. 

[LotusFlower]

At the end it was clear the victim was not only drunk, but passed out drunk, so there was obviously no way to give consent.  I don't see how anyone sees a gray area here.  

[CleoCaesar]

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At the end it was clear the victim was not only drunk, but passed out drunk, so there was obviously no way to give consent.  I don't see how anyone sees a gray area here.  

It was clear to us, the audience, since Ellis admitted it and confessed to rape. But picture yourself on that jury, trying to be objective. Since she totally blacked out, she's not a reliable source when she says she never consented. Yes she says she'd never want to have sex with Ellis but she's saying that in hindsight, as someone on trial, as someone who's been told she was raped. There's no way of knowing (for a jury member) if she hadn't consented at one point, then gotten so drunk that she passed out, and woke up to be informed she'd been raped. There IS reasonable doubt there (again, prior to Ellis's confession). Rape in those kinds of cases is "he said/she said." That's where the gray area is.

[LotusFlower]

But if a woman gets so drunk that she's incapacitated or passed out, then it doesn't matter if she consented to having sex with a guy earlier (when she was sober or maybe a little tipsy). Think about how easily that could be abused and exploited.  That's why the law is very clear on consent and rape.  If you want to have sex, it has to be consensual.  If the woman doesn't give her consent, for any reason including being incapacitated, that's rape, and it's legally irrelevant to say she consented at an earlier time, and/or when she wasn't drunk or incapacitated.

Edited October 27, 2016 by LotusFlower

[WendyCR72]

I get this episode will bring a lot of discussion from all angles, but consider this a reminder to keep it to the episode itself and not the social issue at large. Please keep things civil. Thank you.

[Joimiaroxeu]

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This is a complete flip-flop on how feminism started out, that women were totally capable of taking care of themselves, that they "needed a man like a fish needs a bicycle."  

I also remember how and when feminism started out. I don't recall the part where it meant women gave up the right to consent to having sex or to have agency over their own bodies regardless of their blood alcohol level or state of consciousness.

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The liberal feminist social justice warriors

AKA, the women who would rather not have nonconsensual sex? Gosh, I pity the poor boys and men who have to deal with them because it's too much trouble to go find women who are conscious, not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and clearly capable of consenting to sex.

This was another one of those episodes (which seem to be prevalent this season) where they're taking "ripped from the headlines" stories and then muddling up the premise so badly that it's hard to understand what the point really was. IMO, anyway.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Joimiaroxeu

[LotusFlower]

8 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I also remember how and when feminism started out. I don't recall the part where it meant women gave up the right to consent to having sex or to have agency over their own bodies regardless of their blood alcohol level or state of consciousness.

AKA, the women who would rather not have nonconsensual sex? Gosh, I pity the poor boys and men who have to deal with them because it's too much trouble to go find women who are conscious, not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and clearly capable of consenting to sex.

This was another one of those episodes (which seem to be prevalent this season) where they're taking "ripped from the headlines" stories and then muddling up the premise so badly that it's hard to understand what the point really was. IMO, anyway.

I completely agree.  It was a really confusing episode, and oddly, the two-year jail sentence was only mentioned briefly at the end (the supposed Brock Turner "ripped from the headlines" story).

i hope this isn't too OT, but this discussion mirrors today's news re: Trump and Gingrich calling Meghan Kelly "obsessed with sex" (asking Q's about the groping accusations), when in reality, she was "obsessed" with asking about sexual harassment and sexual predatory behavior.  There's a difference.  Sex is legal, the other is criminal.  That's the point I think Olivia was trying to make to Anthony Edwards at the end when he was trying to equate the earlier infraction with the crime his son committed.

[Joimiaroxeu]

^^At the risk of going further OT, I'll have to laugh so hard if anyone tries to call Meghan Kelly a "liberal feminist social justice warrior." It'll be interesting to see if L&O SVU includes a portrayal of her in the "very special episode" they decided to postpone until after the election.

[CelticBlackCat]

No one forced the alcohol down the "victim's" throat.  If she can't keep control of herself, and can't remember because of blacking out from alcohol, how does her previous unrecalled-by-her-behavior get canceled out in the middle of the sex act?  So she didn't wind up in the most romantic place to get laid.  If she was stone-cold sober, she wouldn't have chosen it for herself.  Hindsight.  If I were on the jury, I would have seen the gray area and it would have caused me reasonable doubt.  If she had left the party in the same condition, got behind the wheel of her car and plowed into another car killing the driver/passenger(s), or pedestrians in her way, would that be something she shouldn't be held accountable for because she couldn't remember getting in her car?  I really wish guys would stop picking up drunk girls at parties for a good time.  Alcohol does nothing to improve anyone's judgment.

[Snookums]

Setting aside the main thrust of the episode:

I really, really, reeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllly need the show to fish or cut bait with Liv and Tucker. This is beyond ridiculous at this point. There is absolutely no reason why she and he cannot have nice, happy relationship, especially if it's (rightly) not the focus of the show! What the hell is so complicated here? Dragging the whole "ooooh, mayhap things not be working out AGAIN" through each episode is tired bullshit. Either have Liv be with Tucker or have them break up already and she and Lucy The World's Most Patient Babysitter can just raise Noah and quit pretending Liv can ever have anything good ever.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Snookums
Sentences need to make sense

[Everleigh]

42 minutes ago, Snookums said:

Setting aside the main thrust of the episode:

I really, really, reeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllly need the show to fish or cut bait with Liv and Tucker. This is beyond ridiculous at this point. There is absolutely no reason why she and he cannot have nice, happy relationship, especially if it's (rightly) not the focus of the show! What the hell is so complicated here? Dragging the whole "ooooh, mayhap things not be working out AGAIN" through each episode is tired bullshit. Either have Liv be with Tucker or have them break up already and she and Lucy The World's Most Patient Babysitter can just raise Noah and quit pretending Liv can ever have anything good ever.

I know, this is getting ridiculous. I like Benson and Tucker together but no couple is interesting enough to drag whatever this is out for multiple episodes. Either they're together or they're not. Just tell us. What's so complicated? And is each member of the team going to take a turn randomly asking Olivia how her and Tucker are doing just so Liv could look torn and say "it's complicated" without ever actually divulging any information? Last week it was Carisi and this week Fin. I guess it's Rollins' turn next. At this rate I expect to see Barba find a way to work it into his questioning the next time Olivia is on the stand testifying for the prosecution: "Lieutenant Benson, is it true the defendant admitted to his crime? And also how are things going between you and Tucker?"

Anyway my guess is Tucker wants to get married and Olivia isn't sure and that's why things are so complicated. 

[RafaelBarbas]

25 minutes ago, Everleigh said:

At this rate I expect to see Barba find a way to work it into his questioning the next time Olivia is on the stand testifying for the prosecution: "Lieutenant Benson, is it true the defendant admitted to his crime? And also how are things going between you and Tucker?"

You say that like this is a bad idea.

[shapeshifter]

Maybe it's because alcohol has a different effect than other drugs used recreationally, but I recall in the 70s two occasions when a guy started to have sex with me and stopped because I wasn't responsive (neither guy wanted to violate a woman that way, even though back then it would not have likely been considered rape), which evidence in the episode's case doesn't support having happened that way (she was sore the next day). Could a case be made that Ellis was too drunk to notice she was not consenting? Disclaimer: I have been sexually assaulted, so my question should not be taken to assume that I don't believe it can happen.

The original plea bargin (10 years probation, going on the sex registry, apologizing) seems not very attractive. Would the law have permitted him to not be registered as a sex offender but that if he violated his probation he would be? Or would his conviction screw his life up just as much, anyway?

Edited October 27, 2016 by shapeshifter

[blxckbird]

i was actually a little bit impressed... a liv-centric episode in post-warren SVU that i didn't hate :o the story with the "old partner" felt like an episode from the "old" svu... (which, tbh, it probably already was, just recycled.. but i'm not sure about that. i vaguely remember a similar storyline tho.)

the case was a bit boring to be honest, i mean it's just kinda been done to death on svu. and even tho it's still a real issue, the whole "it's already gone viral" thing made me cringe, it really wasn't necessary.. :/ 

[wknt3]

The Good:
The guest stars. It was nice to see Anthony Edwards and the actor playing his son did a good job with a challenging role - just think how bad those courtroom breakdowns would have been if he overacted for example.
A solid script. As others have said it was nice to see a Liv centered story without going over the top on the sanctimony or spending the whole time thinking how much better it would be if we were watching the rest of the squad instead of her.
It was nice to see a Barba that didn't seem to be working for Benson.

The Bad:
The massive protests, media crush and another "biggest story on the internet ever" SVU case. I get that it was ripped from the headlines with Brock Turner, but you don't have to copy beat for beat. And while I'm usually in favor of show, don't tell I can't help but thinking that the money they spent on all those extras would be better spent on a recurring character like with the park shootout. It might also make the point stronger if this was getting some coverage because it was similar, and did feel like the end of the world for the parties involved, but Barba and Fin were pointing out that this was a run of the mill case that people were just paying a bit of attention to for a change.
I'm not sure I buy the ending. It didn't feel earned.
We don't need to hear about Benson's personal life every damn episode! If you have plans for Benson and Tucker I'll care when you actually get there. I guess it's better than hearing about how Noah though.

Overall this was a solid episode that didn't try to do too much and didn't have any glaring flaws. Probably the best of the season so far, but still not great. We really need a great one soon though because I'm really not interested in seeing great actors performing middling scripts (but often with a solid story idea that could easily be great) every week.

[Princess Lucky]

I picked the wrong episode to watch live.

Benson was fine with a clearly emotional victim, weeping as she said "I don't want to testify?" But in the last episode she pressured that athlete to testify, even though it would ruin her career and her dreams (which it did), and in the one before that, Benson pressured that mother to testify, even though she wasn't even raped and a trial would ruin her family (which it did)? Even though both of those women had real reasons to want to avoid a trial (the reveal one was a prostitute and the other had willingly cheated on her husband)? Benson pushed them, but last night she was fine with a plea deal?

Not to mention, she was fine with the rapist getting probation?!!! No jail time at all? In that Hudson episode, she wanted to go to trial even though the guy wasn't even a rapist, not by law, and she still wanted him to fry. She was all "we have to make a point." And this week she goes soft on an actual rapist?

And we spent so much time seeing how the rapist's life was ruined? And nothing on the victim? Where was her family? Her father? To punch Anthony Edwards in the face, preferably?

And the resolution came from the rapist having a crisis of conscience and confessing? Which he refused to do, like, two days earlier, because there were still 30 minutes left in the episode? Even though the deal was super-favorable for him and it would have spared the victim of further trauma from the trial? Which apparently means nothing because no one cared about the victim except her sassy cousin?

I do appreciate not seeing the crimes (I appreciate that a lot, actually), but this season that's used to cast doubt on the victims' accounts. I'm reading all these comments, and I'm seeing so many people taking the guy at his word. Thinking the girl drunkenly consented and then passed out mid-coitus. The way I saw it, the girl was slurring her speech and barely standing, the guy was walking with her, hoping to score, and then  she passed out by the garbage. When she was out cold, the guy whipped out his dick and raped her. That's what I think happened. For once, I wish we had seen it.

The idea the victim was too drunk to remember, but not too drunk to consent, apparently, sickens me. As does the idea that the man's point of view is taken as truth. That creep got off raping an unconscious woman, using her as a sex toy. That's what I took from this episode. If he was coherent enough to remember what he did (which his confession proves), he was coherent enough to know the girl hadn't consented (which he admitted). And yet people think it wasn't rape?

Two episodes ago the show was trying to convince us that a guy lying about his job was rape, and now this?

This season is a mess.

[Primetimer]

When the show tackles the Brock Turner case, an ER reunion makes us all feel kinda sick.

View the full article

[CleoCaesar]

9 hours ago, Snookums said:

Lucy The World's Most Patient Babysitter

I wish that could be how she's listed in the credits. Her schedule must revolve around Noah and his mother's insane work hours. She probably sees more of Noah than Liv does.

[Gigglepuff]

This show needs to pick a place or die already. I'm sick of Liv and her nonsense. She has gone from being one of my all time favorite television characters, to my least favorite. I think this show has been on the downward spiral since Meloni left. I'm not saying that as some huge Stabler fan, but since his departure, the "ensemble" has crumbled and we are left with the St. Benson hour, and it's annoying. The rest of the characters seem to exist only in some sort of vacuum to highlight Benson. Can we have a single episode where not EVERYTHING is about her? Is that possible? Even this particular episode was all about poor Liv and her conflict, and less about the victim.

 

As far as Liv's personal life goes, I don't care. I kind of hope she stays with Ed in a way. At least if she's with him, there will be no chance of her having a relationship with Barba, who is the only redeemable character left on this show (aside from Fin of course). I wonder though, how much drama and how complicated and how many secrets do two people who are in their late 40s and 50s need in a relationship? Seriously. It seems as though the writers are writing these characters as if they are in their teens or early 20s. Whatever. I don't even care that much, tbh. Hook her up with Dodds, Carisi, Lucy, whomever, just leave poor Barba out of her mess.

[gesundheit]

Yet another episode where the defense attorney speaks negatively about those durn liberals and expects a Manhattan jury to agree. NYC defense attorneys are not that stupid. Sure, there might be some folks on that jury who would want to give them a pat on the back for insulting feminists and/or liberals, but you just alienated many of them, guaranteed.

[slowpoked]

14 hours ago, Mary Ann said:

Exactly!  And drunk people often aren't thinking about how drunk they really are.  Your brain is just not working right, and the part of your mind that provide judgement and discernment are completely squelched and deadened by the alcohol.  The inhibitions that would normally be in place are no longer there.  It is a dangerous situation, and the current climate makes it even more dangerous.  In addition to unwanted pregnancy, stds, and the usual dangers, one must also add, "You might go to prison and have your life ruined.  .  .  . if you are a man who got drunk."

But is Ellis really drunk though, or just tipsy enough to feel "braver"?! Because on the first scene in the park, when the British guy was making sure he isn't escaping, Ellis was walking fine and talking to him coherently. Then when they went to the precinct, he answered police questions coherently too. He wasn't drunk enough that he couldn't remember what happened. He fully remembered what happened - that they were having sex and that it was consensual. Sounds like a man who is in complete control, or at least, mostly in control of his faculties. And in a much better situation to differentiate what's right or wrong than the woman who was either passed out, or blacked out. 

Plus, that witness said during the trial that when he first called attention to Ellis, he stood up and zipped his fly. I know people have different drunken behavior, but it does look like a man who knows what he is doing, and got caught doing what he knew was wrong. And he ended up admitting to such anyway in the end. 

Man, what a jackass his father was huh? I know it's his son, and it hurts like hell to see him go down like that. But really, if he hadn't brought out that bogus witness, there's actually a chance the jury might see some reasonable doubt based on what you guys have mentioned above - maybe there's consent, maybe there's not. He railroaded the case himself, and I'm glad Ellis was able to tell his father off at the end. And I see they also included that infamous line in the Brock Turner case "20 minutes of action" but turned it into "10 minutes of stupidity". Really, Mr. Cop? I'm sure you have arrested  a hundreds more in your career for stupid actions lasting way less than 10 minutes, and I'm sure you were too happy to put them in jail and see them rot 5,10,15 years inside. I'm glad Barba told Liz that she doesn't owe him anything and that Liz told him off at the end too. And complaining that the system was "rigged"?! Please, your son is getting off in 2 years and there are a lot of criminals rotting in prison for less "severe" crimes for longer years.

During the sentencing, when the judge was saying "first crime, your age, etc." I thought they were really going to mirror Brock Turner and give him a really light sentence. 2 years is short, but at least they're counting years. And I'm glad that judge gave that sentence because she's my favorite SVU judge, I don't want to end up not liking her!

Edited October 27, 2016 by slowpoked

[pbutler111]

Unlike the real-life Brock Turner situation, in this case I actually felt bad for the perp.

[Gigi43]

I do prefer my TV to be a little better than real life, so I was glad to see that this kid ended up with awareness and all. But the end was too quick. He spent so much time claiming complete innocence and didn't even mention his dad being a cop at first, then all of a sudden he was being squeezed into the situation by his parents. It was all too rushed. It wasn't bad enough Anthony Edwards character was dumb enough to use a former CI but of course Liv knew the name right away. And what was with her parting words of she wished he never covered for her? Is it supposedly his fault now for any time she's covered for anyone? Does she completely regret her entire life as a cop now? Why the hell can't they just let Tucker and Liv be okay off screen, I don't even really "like" them as a couple but I'd rather them be okay than have one thing for Benson to have Drama! over.

 

I thought the way they were saying social media was calling the girl names (dumpster girl?) was a little much. I mean the one decent thing about the real Brock Turner situation was how much the online public ended up supporting her, at least from what I saw/remember. The internet can be a shitty place, but someone just posting the picture and having people pass it around wanting to think they're being socially aware but actually causing the victim pain by doing so would have been a better path.

 

This wasn't a terrible episode. But it wasn't exactly good, either.

[mojito]

Quote

Unlike the real-life Brock Turner situation, in this case I actually felt bad for the perp.

Me, too. I gave zero thought to the Brock Turner case.

Before Ellis admitted that he was aware that he was raping the girl, I found myself siding with him because I felt that yes, she was drunk, but he, too was in an altered state. I thought the 2-year sentence was good, but in my world, I probably wouldn't put him on a registered sex offender list because I wouldn't see him as a future threat. I'm all for the list; I'm just not comfortable with all the people who are placed on it. 

[slowpoked]

8 minutes ago, Gigi43 said:

 It wasn't bad enough Anthony Edwards character was dumb enough to use a former CI but of course Liv knew the name right away.

To be fair, Liv didn't know right away, at least that I can remember. They were conversing in the courthouse about who could possibly be this Diego Perez character is and she sent her underlings to do work. It was at night when she paid her former partner a courtesy visit to let him know she's on to him getting a bogus witness.

[Monkeybball]

I liked this episode for the most part - but the heel-turn at the end did not satisfy me.  It also didn't seem to make sense for where the episode was going.  

I also agree with those who posted above that by taking that way out (although in the grand scheme of things, it was right of Ellis to accept responsibility and apologize, wish Brock Turner would have done the same), I think they missed an opportunity to delve further into the alcohol/consent issue.  I for one, was bowled over by the argument of "you left this voicemail, you don't remember it, you were conscious....you don't remember having sex, but you could have consented and been conscious" thing.  Not that I haven't thought that before, but the analogy was really perfect.

One thing I really hate in many of these episodes is the victim's testimony of "I never would have done _______." That is not evidence, lady.  Especially for a drunk person.

I also don't like the part in the episode where the detectives/cousin/whoever immediately tells the victim with a memory problem "you were raped!!!!" before they even have a chance to get their bearings.  It's okay for some of the circumstances, but not for these "gray rapes."

 

While I did like this episode, I found myself saying "What I would GIVE to have a good ole fashioned WHODUNNIT or search for the kidnapped victim or elusive perp" a la Countdown (S2) or Manhunt (S3).  Miss those days.

 

The kid who played Ellis was GORGEOUS.

[Monkeybball]

11 hours ago, Everleigh said:

I know, this is getting ridiculous. I like Benson and Tucker together but no couple is interesting enough to drag whatever this is out for multiple episodes. Either they're together or they're not. Just tell us. What's so complicated? And is each member of the team going to take a turn randomly asking Olivia how her and Tucker are doing just so Liv could look torn and say "it's complicated" without ever actually divulging any information? Last week it was Carisi and this week Fin. I guess it's Rollins' turn next. At this rate I expect to see Barba find a way to work it into his questioning the next time Olivia is on the stand testifying for the prosecution: "Lieutenant Benson, is it true the defendant admitted to his crime? And also how are things going between you and Tucker?"

Anyway my guess is Tucker wants to get married and Olivia isn't sure and that's why things are so complicated. 

 

11 hours ago, RafaelBarbas said:

You say that like this is a bad idea.

I'm all for it.  And for the Defense attorney to object and have the red headed judge go "hmm...I'll allow it" and look at Olivia with intense interest because she too wants to know.

[Monkeybball]

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that an obviously drunk girl is fair game.  I think what the point is is that how are you supposed to know?  Alcohol affects different people different ways.  Yes, she does not remember - the next day.  How are you supposed to know she's in a black out?  I've gone out with friends before and been "wasted" and people were like "really? you were like 100% normal."  So if a drunk girl looks you dead in the eye and says "I want to have sex with you right now" and then you have sex, thinking everything is good, aren't you going to be slightly shocked the next day when people say you raped her?

Now, OBVIOUSLY this wasn't the case in this episode - as Ellis admitted at the end "I knew you were passed out, but I couldn't stop myself."  There's the problem.  Because even up to that point she could have been pulling his member out of his pants but the minute she passed out - consent is eradicated.  But before then?  It's not black and white, it's just interesting to talk about.  I don't know the answer, but it certainly comes up often enough.

 

There was an episode in Season 4 called "Soulless" where a 15 y/o girl (in a club with a fake ID) gets gang raped by a bunch of 18 year old boys.  Now, statutory rape is a general intent crime, meaning you didn't have to intend to have sex with a 15 year old, you just needed to intend to have sex with that girl (even mistaking her age), you're still guilty.  But at one point in the episode, when asked about how intoxicated the girl was, one of the perps says "I was too drunk to appreciate her condition."  Now in that episode it was complete malarky, cause the girl was already passed out on the bathroom floor when they raped her, but in this episode's case?  In real life?  How do we expect people to know?  Let's say that Ellis was just as drunk as the girl - let's say someone roofied him, like Kim Rollins did to that guy in last season's episode - then what?  I certainly don't know the answer, but again, I think it's an interesting discussion to have, and I think that it's okay for SVU to tackle these kinds of cases....I just wish they wouldn't make every single one a gray case.

[kelslamu]

Liv seems so heavy-handed anymore.  I almost can't watch it.  I cringe when she is onscreen.  I just thought there wasn't enough evidence to convict with this one.  Also, they never said who posted the photo.  I kept waiting for them to say the British guy put the pic online to gain internet fame or something to that effect.  I think women should go to things like that in pairs and watch out for each other.  I mean that in both ways.  It could be a guy looking for a women totally drunk or the girl putting herself in a bad situation.  The cousin was seriously upset about it (for what the acting was worth), but didn't act like she had paid any attention to her either.  It's a "we're big girls and don't need to be looked after" type of thing, but they should have anyway.  Rape is horrible and in a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry about it.   Since it isn't, I just wish no woman would allow herself to become that vulnerable through alcohol and drugs.  We definitely need to try to find someone we trust, so that we can look out for one another.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by kelslamu

[kelslamu]

8 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

 

I do appreciate not seeing the crimes (I appreciate that a lot, actually), but this season that's used to cast doubt on the victims' accounts. I'm reading all these comments, and I'm seeing so many people taking the guy at his word. Thinking the girl drunkenly consented and then passed out mid-coitus. The way I saw it, the girl was slurring her speech and barely standing, the guy was walking with her, hoping to score, and then  she passed out by the garbage. When she was out cold, the guy whipped out his dick and raped her. That's what I think happened. For once, I wish we had seen it.

I think the gray area is that we don't know if she consented initially or not.  She had alcohol poisoning and remembered nothing. If I recall, I believe she did remember kissing him.  Some witnesses said they saw her with him (even all over him) and others painted him in a bad light.  They said he smelled like he had been drinking a lot the next day.  My point is there is some reasonable doubt.  She could have consented.  He could have been so drunk that he didn't notice anything once they'd started.  It sucks all the way around.  NO woman should ever be raped unconscious or not.  I think it's a gray area due to all the elements of their doing.  They were both pretty drunk.  If I were on that jury, I would hope they presented better evidence.  Glad he confessed.  It's bad when no one sees anything and even worse when both are impaired.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by kelslamu

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, kelslamu said:

....Rape is horrible and in a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry about it.   Since it isn't, I just wish no woman would allow herself to become that vulnerable through alcohol and drugs.  We definitely need to try to find someone we trust, so that we can look out for one another.  

It's really not much different than a designated driver. Two drunk friends, regardless of gender, are easy prey to predators of all sorts. But I don't think I've heard or read recommendations to have a sober companion when out partying or otherwise under the influence in a place that might not be safe (i.e., any public place). I don't recall if the cousin was sober or not, but she seemed to be looking out for the victim, but then lost track of her — like there was no concrete understanding that she would look out for her the whole night.

[pbutler111]

I liked this episode for the most part - but the heel-turn at the end did not satisfy me.  It also didn't seem to make sense for where the episode was going.  

I also agree with those who posted above that by taking that way out (although in the grand scheme of things, it was right of Ellis to accept responsibility and apologize, wish Brock Turner would have done the same), I think they missed an opportunity to delve further into the alcohol/consent issue.  I for one, was bowled over by the argument of "you left this voicemail, you don't remember it, you were conscious....you don't remember having sex, but you could have consented and been conscious" thing.  Not that I haven't thought that before, but the analogy was really perfect.

One thing I really hate in many of these episodes is the victim's testimony of "I never would have done _______." That is not evidence, lady.  Especially for a drunk person.

I also don't like the part in the episode where the detectives/cousin/whoever immediately tells the victim with a memory problem "you were raped!!!!" before they even have a chance to get their bearings.  It's okay for some of the circumstances, but not for these "gray rapes."

 

While I did like this episode, I found myself saying "What I would GIVE to have a good ole fashioned WHODUNNIT or search for the kidnapped victim or elusive perp" a la Countdown (S2) or Manhunt (S3).  Miss those days.

 

The kid who played Ellis was GORGEOUS.

"I liked this episode for the most part - but the heel-turn at the end did not satisfy me. It also didn't seem to make sense for where the episode was going."

I had the very distinct impression that this was first written so that we wound up with the girl withdrawing her complaint at the end, saying that she can't in good conscience accuse him of raping her when she was so drunk that she can't remember whether she consented or not, opening a dialogue about that whole dynamic about personal responsibility, etc. But it feels like maybe that met with resistance and was changed at the last minute so the guy just says, "Yeah, okay, it was all me -- my bad." It just felt kind of patched up to me.

[WineCheeseChocolat]

No means no in ALL circumstances and anyone who would drug someone to have sex with them or take advantage of someone's unconscious body is the scum of the earth. But I've always been uncomfortable with the whole "alcohol nullifies consent" thing. One, because where do you draw the line? If my husband and I go out for a date night, split a bottle of wine and then have sex that we both said yes to, are we raping each other? Or is he raping me only, which brings me to point 2...

If both people were drunk, why is the male automatically the perpetrator? It's kinda like the rape by deception episode. If a woman misrepresents herself to a guy she's sleeping with (like saying she's single when she's partnered up for example) I don't think people would ever call that rape.

Also, turning an unambiguous real-life case into a much more ambiguous episode feels icky to me. Especially so soon after.

[Monkeybball]

1 hour ago, pbutler111 said:

"I liked this episode for the most part - but the heel-turn at the end did not satisfy me. It also didn't seem to make sense for where the episode was going."

I had the very distinct impression that this was first written so that we wound up with the girl withdrawing her complaint at the end, saying that she can't in good conscience accuse him of raping her when she was so drunk that she can't remember whether she consented or not, opening a dialogue about that whole dynamic about personal responsibility, etc. But it feels like maybe that met with resistance and was changed at the last minute so the guy just says, "Yeah, okay, it was all me -- my bad." It just felt kind of patched up to me.

That's interesting....I could actually kind of see that based on the lead up.  I'm sure that would not have been a popular premise though and would have cause an uproar among most of the audience.