The Case Of: JonBenét Ramsey - General Discussion

[Maharincess]

@AZChristian,  I have to say that I have agreed with every single thing you have said about this case.  Most of the time I don't need to post because you've already said what I came to say.  I will always believe that somebody in that house killed her, either accidentally or on purpose I don't know but I have never believed there was an intruder. 

I have always heard that the blow to the head came first and the garrote was applied a few hours later.  Interesting that John disappeared for 90 minutes that morning and came back acting agitated.  I don't remember hearing that before. 

[Mittengirl]

It sure seemed to me that they were making the evidence fit their preconceived notions.  I couldn't understand a word of that "enhanced" audio, but I knew what they were going to claim it said because it those claims have been made for years.  The show made it seem like they were listening to it with fresh ears having no idea what the tapes contained.

[GaT]

This seems like a really biased show to me, they are pushing Burke as the killer big time. I didn't hear any of the stuff on the tape that they did either.

3 hours ago, ExplainItAgain said:

The only part that was disturbing was watching that 10-year-old bash the pigskin skull. I hope he was talked to about exactly what he was doing and why.

 

I found that part extremely disturbing and inappropriate to ask a ten years old kid to do.

[Lizzing]

6 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

The audio analysis was unconvincing to me. I couldn't make out anything that was being said. Yes, they could have been saying what the investigators believe they said, or not.

That whole "enhanced" audio segment was laughable to me.  It was even less convincing than audio clips used on shows like Ghost Hunters to prove the dead are talking to a bunch of nutty reality show people who wonder around in the dark and scare each other.  Then the complete waste of time on (1) making phone calls no one returned, (2) talking to a gardener about a kid liking to play in fall leaves, (3) talking about the Whites not wanting to appear on camera, yet saying they had a lot to tell, and sharing none of that with the audience, and (4) getting some kid to whack a skull with a flashlight (which I'm sure was practiced; no way that wasn't prepped for filming).  So far, this iteration of the case coverage is lower caliber than the ID one, and that one wasn't all that great.

[JudyObscure]

Putting a blonde wig on that skull was the tackiest thing I've seen on any of these shows.  If they wanted to simulate the thickness of hair, a short brown wig would have sufficed.

I thought a lot of what  Fitzgerald, the linguist, had to say about the ransom note was interesting, the time it took, the "small foreign faction,"  the little bit of money asked, and the movie quotes, but I think he makes way too much of "business," being misspelled.  In the Dateline show he thought it was someone pretending to be less educated and in this it was pretending English was a second language.  Maybe it's just me, but I can easily spell something wrong when I'm in a hurry.

I thought it was interesting that the photographer said word went out around that friends of the family were told not to talk to anyone.

I think Kim Archeletta, the 911 operator, just wants to be on TV, she has nothing but her after the fact "feelings," to add.   Are these operators told to tell people, "I need you to take a deep breath for me?"  Because I think I might hang up on someone who said that to me when I was under stress.

7 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

This is the first time I've heard that John Ramsey went missing for 1.5 hours that morning.

I know!  What the heck?  He left Patsy crying and didn't come down to ask the police if there were any news for an hour and a half!  Was he in the basement setting up the scene? I just can't with this police work.

I'll never be able to picture calling my friends to say, "My child has been kidnapped, please come over."  Particularly when the ransom note said don't talk to anyone and the people you've called have children of their own to worry about.

[jenrising]

I definitely see why this goy shortened to two nights. It's terrible. Higher budget aside, it was really just the counterpoint to the A&E version. Focused on the family rat her than intruder theory. And explains Burke showing up on tv to defend himself.

The audio analysis was laughable. Claiming any importance of "tone" in enhanced barely audible sound is just ridiculous. Then there's the shock, SHOCK of the Ramsey calling their closest friends in the middle of a crisis. And on and on.

I'm entirely undecided about who committed this crime, but entirely certain that the respect I had for the professionals in this show is gone.

[ghoulina]

I agree that this was the most interesting doc about this case I've seen yet. Much better than the ones that have been airing on various channels over the past few weeks. I liked that they assembled a very diverse team of experts and are tackling the case step-by-step, as if they were the investigators assigned to the case. Maybe I'm biased because I've been RDI for years, and lean towards BDI, but I liked it. 

I DID hear some of the things they did on the audio. Not all. But some. Granted, I wasn't sitting right there in the studio with the equipment and ear phones either. But I absolutely heard "What DID you find?" And, no matter WHAT was actually said, there was no doubt in my mind that that was a child's voice. And the Ramseys stated Burke was in bed at that time. So...

The 911 call has always struck me as odd. Patsy starts out with, "We have a kidnapping". It just sounds odd, to me. Very matter of fact, very detached, which doesn't the hysterical breathing and yelling that's going on. "We have a kidnapping" sounds like what a patrol officer says when he calls into dispatch, not the mother of the missing child. I also found it odd that when asked about the note she was able to rattle off "SBTC", after presumably only JUST having read the note. And being very upset. If you weren't familiar with that acronym, would you really remember that? 

As for the 911 operator testifying at GJ, I don't think she knew what was said after Patsy thought the call had ended, but I think her point was that she could HEAR voices in the background and the tone was very different than the one she experienced during the actual call. She could hear a shift from frantic to controlled. I'd say that's interesting. 

I also didn't know that John was missing for 1.5 hours that morning, and I would REALLY like to know what he was doing. I wish he could find out what Fleet White has to say. 

 

I did find the skull reenactment a little disturbing; the blonde wig was unnecessary. And I wondered what that boy was told about why he was there? But I appreciated it because it showed that a child could cause that injury. Over the years, many people have said Burke could not have done that, but I have young boys at home (6 and 8) and they're destructive without even meaning to. They break everything! So I've long thought it was possible he could have dealt that blow; it was interesting to see it play out. 

[ghoulina]

9 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Something I noticed on a different show today.  When they showed the early TV interview when Patsy is obviously drugged and says (with tears in her voice but not in her eyes), "Keep your babies close to you," John is mouthing the words as she says them . . . almost as though they were both memorizing the same script.

YES! I just noticed that myself. Unfortunately they didn't show the panned out version on this doc. You only see Patsy. Overall, though, I did find the analysis of all the statements and interviews very interesting.

 

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I thought it was interesting that the photographer said word went out around that friends of the family were told not to talk to anyone.

On another show, one of their neighbors said that same thing. That they were told not to talk to police, specifically. And she was "iced out", because she did.

 

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I'll never be able to picture calling my friends to say, "My child has been kidnapped, please come over."  Particularly when the ransom note said don't talk to anyone and the people you've called have children of their own to worry about.

Me either. I don't feel like ANY of their actions were those of people who thought there was actually a kidnapping. They let their house turn into grand central station. And there was no reported reaction of fear or anything when that ransom note deadline came and they hadn't heard from the kidnapper. They left Burke alone upstairs for hours. If one of my kids was taken, the others would be glued to my side!

[ExplainItAgain]

8 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I thought I heard at the end that the next episode is the conclusion--but I also thought this was supposed to be a six-hour thing?

They (CBS I guess?) made them cut it down from six hours to four.

[absolutelyido]

On 9/13/2016 at 3:15 PM, Stampiron said:

I'm not sure what John was wearing, but he'd already gotten out of the shower when Patsy yelled for him. Patsy was wearing the same outfit that she was wore to the White's the night before. That's considered very suspicious by most people. Patsy has stated that she reapplied her makeup when she got up that morning.

The Ramseys say that they went to bed shortly after they returned from the Christmas party. Patsy wearing the same clothes as the prior night seems suspicious because it may indicate that she never went to bed but instead was up all night killing JonBenet and/or covering up the murder, including writing a lengthy ransom note. If she was up all night dealing with the crime, but her story was going to be that she found the note when she got up very early in the morning, wouldn't she take a few minutes to put on new clothes or even pajamas to go along with her story? I think if I were up all night committing and covering up a crime, and then planned to call police very early in the morning to claim I discovered the crime when I got out of bed, I would put on pajamas to go along with my story.

Edited September 19, 2016 by absolutelyido

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

It sure seemed to me that they were making the evidence fit their preconceived notions.  I couldn't understand a word of that "enhanced" audio, but I knew what they were going to claim it said because it those claims have been made for years.  The show made it seem like they were listening to it with fresh ears having no idea what the tapes contained.

Quote

This seems like a really biased show to me, they are pushing Burke as the killer big time. I didn't hear any of the stuff on the tape that they did either.

I agree, but I am trying to be open about it even as a "they didn't do it" proponent--because the panel is filled with people whose books I've read and whose opinions and knowledge I've always respected. Oy, this fuckin' case, man. 

[choclatechip45]

I thought it was interesting. I remember hearing about John Ramsey missing before. Even though I have always thought someone in the house did it l. The only thing I could hear on the 911 enhanced tape was a soft voice saying "what did you find?"

[EVS]

The broken basement window does bother me a bit.  I get that John may have been annoyed or agitated at being locked out (if that is really what happened) and not thinking straight, but I can't help but wonder a couple things:

Why did he break a window that was so difficult to get through?  How did he even know if he would fit through it? I have a similar window in my basement and it is probably the last one I would choose if I was locked out. 

Why didn't he follow through to make sure it was fixed (if he asked Patsy to have it fixed)? Also, I know the room wasn't used often, but I would think that someone would have noticed it hadn't been fixed yet. 

But my main question is, did John try to call anyone with a key to let him in before breaking the window?  Supposedly a lot of people had keys to their home. He could have gone to a neighbor's house to use the phone and call one of them (I wonder if any neighbors had keys) or gone to a payphone. I would have done that before breaking a window. 

None of this necessarily means anything suspicious.  He may have really been locked out and broke the window.   I just found it interesting because I would have done things differently if it had been me.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I thought it was interesting. I remember hearing about John Ramsey missing before. Even though I have always thought someone in the house did it l. The only thing I could hear on the 911 enhanced tape was a soft voice saying "what did you find?"

The thing that is so weird to me is, whether they did it or not, if Burke had been awake and asking questions during this crazed morning, why not say so? There's nothing incriminating in and of itself about that, and it seems that the idea of him being in bed the whole time is more of a sticking point to many people.

[AZChristian]

I agree with the point Ghoulina made above.  Even if we couldn't understand all the exact words spoken after the "hang-up," the tone was totally different.  It was as though a movie director had directed the phone scene to be hysterical, and then called, "CUT."  All of a sudden, the hysteria is gone and normal conversational tones take over.  

And JudyObscure, I watch a LOT of real-life crime stories on TV (I'm retired).  The 911 operator will OFTEN direct the caller to "Take a deep breath," or they'll say, "I need you to calm down."  And Patsy sounded like many I've heard who have later been determined to have faked their angst during the initial call.

I'd heard before that the note paper on which the ransom letter was written was from inside the house.  However, it was the first time I'd heard that the very tidy kidnapper had returned the pen and paper to their normal places after finishing the practice notes and the final note.  And they were not kept together; the note pad was in one place, and the pen in another.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

SBTC",

I never knew it was an acronym!  What does it mean?

17 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

 The 911 operator will OFTEN direct the caller to "Take a deep breath," or they'll say, "I need you to calm down."

I wonder why they train them that way?  "I need you to," sounds very bossy to me.  I once worked in a bank and heard the drive thru teller get in a world of trouble for telling a customer, "I need you to come inside."  So being told to calm down, or take a deep breath, by some one when my child was missing or my husband shot would only serve to make me more frustrated and upset.  Has anyone ever calmed down because someone told them to?  I can understand the operator saying, I'm sorry, I can't understand you, would you try to speak more slowly, please, but repeating my name over and over and ordering me to take a deep breath would probably make me hang-up, like Patsy did.

[AZChristian]

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

I never knew it was an acronym!  What does it mean?

I wonder why they train them that way?  "I need you to," sounds very bossy to me.  I once worked in a bank and heard the drive thru teller get in a world of trouble for telling a customer, "I need you to come inside."  So being told to calm down, or take a deep breath, by some one when my child was missing or my husband shot would only serve to make me more frustrated and upset.  Has anyone ever calmed down because someone told them to?  I can understand the operator saying, I'm sorry, I can't understand you, would you try to speak more slowly, please, but repeating my name over and over and ordering me to take a deep breath would probably make me hang-up, like Patsy did.

Police dispatchers are trained to take control of a call.  Some people respond well to the feeling that someone else is in control, and will take a breath or attempt to calm down if directed to do so.  Others (maybe the ones who believe THEMSELVES to be in control) will just hang up.  

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I never knew it was an acronym!  What does it mean?

There was some talk about it being an abbreviation of somewhere John Ramsey was once stationed--Subic Bay something or other, I can't recall the rest.

E.T.A.: I just Googled, albeit for two seconds, and it says that this was just internet speculation...which is weird because I remember reading it in a book (probably Steve Thomas's) well before I had internet access. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[ghoulina]

32 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I'd heard before that the note paper on which the ransom letter was written was from inside the house.  However, it was the first time I'd heard that the very tidy kidnapper had returned the pen and paper to their normal places after finishing the practice notes and the final note.  And they were not kept together; the note pad was in one place, and the pen in another.

I never heard that either. I figured everything was just left on the counter. Unless the killer had intimate knowledge of that house, being able to return things to their exact spot during a night like that seems a bit of a stretch. There was also the markings of a practice note found on the pad, I believe. Who has time for that???? 

 

9 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I never knew it was an acronym!  What does it mean?

No one has ever been able to figure that out. There's been a lot of speculation over the years. Many say "Saved By the Cross", since that seems to fit with the "Victory!" at the end of the note. Others have thought maybe Subic Bay Training Center, which is a US Naval base near the Philippines, where I believe John served for some time. So I just think, since it's not a well known acronym, it's unlikely you'd remember that right in that moment to tell the 911 operator, unless you came up with it yourself. 

[AZChristian]

Some thought it meant Subic Bay Training Center.  John was stationed at Subic Bay, but apparently there was no facility there referred to as a Training Center.

Others thought it meant Saved By The Cross.  A good old Southern Baptist phrase.

[choclatechip45]

Didn't Judith Phillips say on the Dateline special Patsy thought she was cured by the cross?

[JudyObscure]

14 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Police dispatchers are trained to take control of a call.  Some people respond well to the feeling that someone else is in control, and will take a breath or attempt to calm down if directed to do so.  Others (maybe the ones who believe THEMSELVES to be in control) will just hang up.  

I would hang up, not because I wanted to be in control, but because I had called for help and was having to stop and do things for the operator. In other words, I would be begging her to help me with what I  needed (an ambulance or police,) and she would be telling me what she needed, which just wouldn't have been a priority for me at that moment.  I would be thinking, either help me or go away, I don't have time to take deep breaths for you right now.

[AZChristian]

When Mr. AZC had a heart attack last October, it was my first occasion to call 911.  The operator took all the info and alerted the Fire Department.  She assured me they would be there shortly, but I begged her to stay on the phone with me because I didn't want to be "alone" until help had arrived.  I know that John was there with Patsy, but if it were me, I would not hang up with the Police Department until REAL help was on scene.  Unless "call police" was just one more tick mark on the cover-up list.

We all react differently.  Which is why no group of people ever fully agree on what might have happened.

[toodles]

This is the best of the jonbenet programs that have filled my dvr in the past couple of weeks.  I'm disappointed that they decided to cut it back to 4 hours.  I hope one of my ptv peeps will let us know where we can find the full version when it's available.

I always thought it was crazy to have friends coming in and out of the house while you're waiting for kidnappers to call about your kidnapped child.  So they got the ransom note and forgot about it?  And make travel plans instead of putting the ransom money together?  I knew this before, but for me, it's still a huge WTH moment.  I did get some new info and I thought it was interesting.

For the love of God though, no pineapple talk.  Please.

[ExplainItAgain]

3 minutes ago, toodles said:

For the love of God though, no pineapple talk.  Please.

Sounds like that's coming up tonight!

I never understood them calling friends to come over. Maybe calling to let them know so they could check on their own kids/be on the lookout/etc. Or if Patsy was by herself I could see her calling (a) friend to come over, but she had John and Burke there. But I would think you would know it's not the best idea to have people traipsing through your house. Also, the note was so specific about not talking to anyone - police, friends, a stray dog, etc. So the Ramseys immediately call the police and call their neighbors and friends to come over, thereby making a big scene at the house??

[ExplainItAgain]

I don't know if I'm just super paranoid or if the Ramseys were just super lax - I could never sleep knowing that an out-of-the way window (big enough for a person to fit though) in my basement was broken. That's just an open invitation for trouble to me.

[AZChristian]

7 minutes ago, ExplainItAgain said:

I don't know if I'm just super paranoid or if the Ramseys were just super lax - I could never sleep knowing that an out-of-the way window (big enough for a person to fit though) in my basement was broken. That's just an open invitation for trouble to me.

Especially since all they had to do was to tell the housekeeper to call someone to have it fixed.  It's not like they had to develop the skills and find the time to do it themselves.

[Guest]

I never understood the phoning of all those people that morning either. But the one guy last night made some sense of it by saying they wanted other people around to corroborate their emotional state or to continue staging the scene for when/if they found the body. 

I had also forgotten that John had announced he "found" JonBenet before even turning the light on in that dark room. 

Also interesting was the disclaimer at the end of the show that the network didn't endorse any of the findings in the show. Guess someone got put on notice by the Ramsey attorneys. 

In the preview that aired before CBS decided to cut down the show's air time, it featured the investigators chasing down Burke Ramsey. Dollars to donuts that has been cut from the episode tonight.

[FanOfTheFans]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

 

I'll never be able to picture calling my friends to say, "My child has been kidnapped, please come over."  Particularly when the ransom note said don't talk to anyone and the people you've called have children of their own to worry about.

This has always been a main sticking point for me too.  It leads me to believe family is involved. That house was like Grand Central Station.  Don't even get me started on the police and their inability to preserve the crime scene.  But yes, why would you bring all those people in when you were warned it could result in death for Jonbenet?  

I have tried to keep an open mind with these shows and I have changed my mind as to guilt more than once. This show seems anti-Ramsey so I am keeping that in mind. I would like to see the DNA addressed because I think there is a lot of confusion regarding the results.  I myself am still confused about it. Will see what tonight brings. 

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, AZChristian said:

When Mr. AZC had a heart attack last October, it was my first occasion to call 911.  The operator took all the info and alerted the Fire Department.  She assured me they would be there shortly, but I begged her to stay on the phone with me because I didn't want to be "alone" until help had arrived.  I know that John was there with Patsy, but if it were me, I would not hang up with the Police Department until REAL help was on scene.  Unless "call police" was just one more tick mark on the cover-up list.

We all react differently.  Which is why no group of people ever fully agree on what might have happened.

We do react differently.  The only occasion we have had to call 911 was when I fell down the stairs into the garage and broke my legs.  My husband called 911 and then hung up and came back to me.  I wouldn't have liked it, if he had left me to wait alone while he stayed on the phone with the 911 operator.  I think the "patient," should come first. In this JB's case, I think the operator and Patsy should have been more concerned with finding JonBenet than with remaining calm or taking deep breaths.  I was surprised to hear the show say most people consider the phone a "life line."  Once the ambulance is on it's way I think the caller should hang up, apply pressure to the wound, do CPR, etc.

[ExplainItAgain]

It's also a bit different now due to cell phones. If there's an emergency with another person, you can be right there and still be on the phone. You can put the phone on speaker and use your hands if need be. There's not too much reason to hang up these days (and I've always heard you're not supposed to anyway - I think that's common knowledge).

Of course, that didn't apply in 1996. I don't make too much from the 911 call, except whether there was conversation after she thought she hung up. The 911 operator seemed offended she'd never been talked to, but she didn't have much to add. She said she thought she heard "We called the police, now what?" but the audio analysis didn't catch that.

Edited September 19, 2016 by ExplainItAgain

[Court]

17 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Just saw something on TV that I hadn't heard before.  The Grand Jury came back with TWO indictments against John and Patsy; one for abuse of a child, and a second for covering up a crime.

But Alex Hunter wouldn't sign the indictment and tried to cover it up under the guise of they didn't have enough evidence to charge anyone beyond a reasonable doubt.

There's been speculation that he didn't because of the Ramsey's status in the community. Some believe that status is why the police allowed everyone to traipse through the house.

 

Does anyone know the name of the PR firm the Ramsey's hired?

[toodywoody]

1 hour ago, Giant Misfit said:

I never understood the phoning of all those people that morning either. But the one guy last night made some sense of it by saying they wanted other people around to corroborate their emotional state or to continue staging the scene for when/if they found the body. 

I had also forgotten that John had announced he "found" JonBenet before even turning the light on in that dark room. 

Also interesting was the disclaimer at the end of the show that the network didn't endorse any of the findings in the show. Guess someone got put on notice by the Ramsey attorneys. 

In the preview that aired before CBS decided to cut down the show's air time, it featured the investigators chasing down Burke Ramsey. Dollars to donuts that has been cut from the episode tonight.

hmmm, maybe since she had commented about OK getting away with murder, maybe they were trying to contaminate the scene as much as possible. And we're trying to have witnesses saying how distraught they were. 

And if Burke was asleep and was up at the time and asked what they found, hmmmm, he wasn't supposed to be up. But what exactly is he talking about? And did they leave him upstairs so that the cops couldn't see him or because they didn't want them talking to him or because he was up there hiding stuff with dad? Or the didn't want him screwing up their performances or questioning their performances and their fake crap they were saying. Or the questions are endless. 

And after watching one of the other shows this weekend about the case and hearing how calm Patsy is on the phone and how fake she is on one of the TV interviews, it just makes me wonder. 

[FormerMod-a1]

The "take deep breaths" and "try to calm down" are needed when someone is so panicked or scared or generally freaked that they can't get much out except to repeat what is already known.  People breathing hard, sobbing, and only getting out "He fell!  He fell!" need something to focus on, even if it's annoying.  Trust me, I'm sure numerous studies have been done on how to help people via phone with 911.  My sister in law is a 911 operator and they get lots of training.  And it is comforting to many to keep on with that other person until help gets there, whatever it is for (accident, death, kidnapping, robbery, etc) - they don't feel so alone.  They do also walk them through wound care and CPR and whatever else is needed.  But in this case, what else is there?  She called saying is missing/been kidnapped - there's no wound care to be done.  Calm down and give out the details to help.

[GaT]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

On another show, one of their neighbors said that same thing. That they were told not to talk to police, specifically. And she was "iced out", because she did.

 

The neighbor on this show is the same neighbor as on the other show. Apparently she made the rounds of JonBenet shows to tell how she was frozen out because she talked to everyone. I don't think she actually knows anything, she's just making herself feel important & getting back at the Ramseys for cutting her out.

[AZChristian]

53 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

The "take deep breaths" and "try to calm down" are needed when someone is so panicked or scared or generally freaked that they can't get much out except to repeat what is already known.  People breathing hard, sobbing, and only getting out "He fell!  He fell!" need something to focus on, even if it's annoying.  Trust me, I'm sure numerous studies have been done on how to help people via phone with 911.  My sister in law is a 911 operator and they get lots of training.  And it is comforting to many to keep on with that other person until help gets there, whatever it is for (accident, death, kidnapping, robbery, etc) - they don't feel so alone.  They do also walk them through wound care and CPR and whatever else is needed.  But in this case, what else is there?  She called saying is missing/been kidnapped - there's no wound care to be done.  Calm down and give out the details to help.

Also the operator is trained to glean as much info as possible from the caller; that info is then relayed to the responding officer/paramedic/fireman.  The more info the responder has, the better they can direct their questions/behavior when they get to the crime scene.  By hanging up, Patsy basically communicated, "That's all I'm telling the cops" (at least until she finished manipulating the crime scene).  Besides, she had all those friends to call.  Surely the police should understand her priorities!  /sarcasm

[EVS]

Another thing I noticed (and I'm sure has been noticed by many others) is that during the CNN interview, Patsy made that "keep your babies close" statement, but she and John didn't even do that with their own remaining child on the day their daughter was kidnapped/killed.  

[Arynm]

I was watching the Dr. Phil episode on this and Jon Ramsey said something that cleared something up for me. Dr. Phil asked him why he put the date of her death as Dec 25 and he said that he thought the ransom note was written the night of Christmas and the call would come the next day. So, from his mouth they should have been waiting for that call the following morning. I have heard that they let the time of the supposed call pass with no notice and I have heard that they were all waiting for the call. Since he said they thought the call would have been that next day I really want to know which of the above is the truth. Were they waiting or not? This has been a major sticking point for me, so now I need to do some digging. I originally brought this point up here so I thought I would address it here instead of over on that board.

[Maharincess]

The friends were called two minutes after the 911 call was placed. Who would have the presence of mind to to even think about their friends after finding their daughter missing?  My friends would be the last thing on my mind. 

[Luciano]

I can't reply with a quote for some reason, but to the above: both the Ramseys and the police were waiting for the call. The phones were tapped and one of the detectives coached JR on how to talk to the kidnapper if he called. The police were monitoring all calls in the timeframe that was given and until the body was found.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Luciano

[RedheadZombie]

15 hours ago, Maharincess said:

@AZChristian,  I have to say that I have agreed with every single thing you have said about this case.  Most of the time I don't need to post because you've already said what I came to say.  I will always believe that somebody in that house killed her, either accidentally or on purpose I don't know but I have never believed there was an intruder. 

I have always heard that the blow to the head came first and the garrote was applied a few hours later.  Interesting that John disappeared for 90 minutes that morning and came back acting agitated.  I don't remember hearing that before. 

That's because it didn't happen.

7 minutes ago, Luciano said:

I can't reply with a quote for some reason, but to the above: both the Ramseys and the police were waiting for the call. The phones were tapped and one of the detectives coached JR on how to talk to the kidnapper if he called. The police were monitoring all calls in the timeframe that was given and until the body was found.

Why bother with facts?  What do truth, fact, logic, and forensics matter when people "just know" the Ramseys are guilty.  I'm a little nervous I may one day have my life in the hands of this type of juror.  Actually, I'm terrified.

[Maharincess]

And how do you know it didn't happen?  You speak of things like you know 100% without a doubt, where do you get your sources? 

[zxy556575]

I have no idea what the majority consensus is, or if there is one, but I idly asked three people who haven't followed the case and only have a dim recollection of the facts who they thought did it. They all said "the brother." Kind of surprised me. I have zero belief this will ever go to trial, but can you imagine trying to pick a jury? Maybe if all of them are under 25.

The thing with Patsy's phone calls to friends is that she would either have had their numbers memorized or looked up them in ye olde hand-written address book, which seems like even more trouble to bring people in the house. But then, that was the way we all called people in those days so maybe it's only weird in retrospect.

[lorikauai]

Here's the way I interpreted the 911 call - Patsy calls in a panic, she puts down the phone when a sleepy Burke wakes up and having overheard about the ransom note, asks, "What did you find?" John and Patsy try to get him out of the situation and decide to call friends to help with Burke. The "Help me Jesus!" makes more sense with "What did we do?" (as in what did we do to deserve this?) or "What do we do?" (as in requesting guidance from God) rather than "What did you do?" In any case, they sound legitimately panicked to me. 

I do think this group is trying to point the finger at the family and interpreting the evidence to fit that scenario. Isn't that exactly what the police did at the time? Henry Lee seemed like he was the only one not going into this assuming it was the family. 

I was offended by the "friend" who was cut off by the Ramseys. She was upset that obviously heavily medicated Patsy saying, "Keep your children close!" scared her daughter? What the heck is wrong with her? Patsy's daughter was murdered. It's not about you.

[tobeannounced]

With all due respect to people who know what they would do if their child was kidnapped, no one knows what they would do in that situation unless they've been in that situation.  Maybe the Ramseys, being across the country from their family and in a hideous situation, wanted the comfort of close friends.  Who knows?  My point is, if you've got evidence, show the evidence.  Don't do cheap stunts like interviewing the gardener and making a big dot deal about Patsy's comment that anyone in this country could get away with murder, dun, dun, dun!  If you've got proof, why interview bitter friends who got iced out because they talked to the media, which I would not consider a friend truly a friend if they ran to the press and talked about my family during the worst time of my life.  Why make up crap that you can't even make out on the 911 call?

Edited September 19, 2016 by tobeannounced

[SSAHotchner]

16 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

I agree. For all the experts they have gathered this doesn't seem like a thorough investigation to me but, rather, a presentation of selected evidence to support the investigators theory that someone in the family killed JonBenet. It is coming across (to me) like one of those conspiracy shows in which they prove the Loch Ness Monster is real or that UFOs landed in area 51. I thought the A&E special was more convincing in presenting evidence supporting that it was an intruder. 

The audio analysis was unconvincing to me. I couldn't make out anything that was being said. Yes, they could have been saying what the investigators believe they said, or not.

This really reminded me of another child murder case from many years ago. Unfortunately, I can't remember much of the details, but there was a Dateline or 48 Hours or one of those shows on it. A baby was killed or was taken from her home, I can't quite remember, but the police suspected the parents so got a subpoena to bug their kitchen. They recorded the parents discussing what they had done to the child as well as extensive drug use. They read a transcript of what the police heard the parents say. However, a jury acquitted the parents after hearing the tapes (or it may have been a judge dismissed the charges after hearing the tapes, I can't recall the details). Then they played the tapes on the show, in which the parents talking was completely indecipherable which was why the charges were dismissed. The police were convinced the parents did it so "heard" what they wanted to hear on the tapes. I wish I could remember more about this case. I want to say the baby was named Serena but could be wrong. Does anyone remember this? Anyway, I thought the investigators on this show did the same thing. They already believe that someone in the family killed JonBenet, so have interpreted what is said on the tape to support that belief.

I understand what you're saying and I, too, couldn't decipher any what was said on that garbled phone tape, but the things that have always stood out to me were:

1. The phony ransom note. The wording was ridiculous and laughable. And no real kidnapper would write a note of that length IN THE HOME with materials found there. If kidnapping were the real crime, and if a note were going to be left, a real kidnapper would have come prepared with a note with the instructions for ransom. The note always seemed to be a cover for the real crime of murder.

2. The pineapple. The stomach contents revealed that she had eaten the pineapple shortly before she was killed. Only family members' finger prints were on the bowl and spoon which were left on the counter. If an intruder came into the house wearing glove and fed her the pineapple why were Patsy and Burke's finger prints on the bowl and spoon? Do they seem like a family that would leave food on the counter when they went to bed? 

3. The finding of the body. Why wasn't the house searched completely until the authorities said they were going to do a complete search of the house? When they say they're going to do a search, all of a sudden John Ramsey makes a beeline to the place where her body is and then instead of calling police down to the crime scene carries the body upstairs. It's all very fishy. 

Last night's episode brought up another fact I hadn't heard before and that was that the actual cause of death was the blow to the head, and all that strangulation stuff was just a cover. I also believe that had a stranger/intruder killed her, he would have not gone to any of the lengths that appear to be just cover up at the scene like the ransom note and the garrote.

So while I'll admit that there are plenty of times the police get it wrong, I don't think that either the police, the FBI or the Scotland Yard chick are wrong here. Sometimes kids are abducted from their homes and killed by strangers or non-family members. But there is too much evidence, manufactured by the family, in this house for police to buy that that is what happened here. My guess is that it's either the brother, which they seem to be hinting at by saying even a child his age could inflict the fatal blow, or the mom lost it for just a moment and the family tried to cover a moment of rage with a phony kidnapping/murder story. I can well imagine that the brother had a hard time in a household where the mother's focus was 100% on appearances and living out her pageant dreams through her daughter. You have this gorgeous little angel of a girl and an older brother who doesn't seem to get much of either parent's attention and is quite awkward to boot. I can easily see him resenting his sister. I hope that if it was him, that resentment was all that was there. Some of the programs on this murder have speculated that Jon Benet's bed wetting could well be a symptom of sexual abuse. I hope it won't be true. Being killed was bad enough. I hope she didn't go through any other trauma. 

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm a little nervous I may one day have my life in the hands of this type of juror.  Actually, I'm terrified.

Message board posters are not jury members and no one's convicting anyone of anything. Opinions are not convictions.

[RedheadZombie]

By far this is the most salacious, and poorly fact-checked of all the specials.  It's also extremely biased against the Ramseys, which may be why so many found it the most interesting, and supposedly learned things never heard before (hint:  because they're not true).

There are so many things wrong it seems pointless to even correct them.  Jon Benet clawed at her own throat to attempt to remove the garrote.   Therefore, she was very much alive, conscious, and physically able to fight.  Yet they claim it was the blow to the head that killed her, and she was dead or nearly so before the garrote.  Why?  Because their agenda includes a raging Ramsey who gave a death blow to JB impulsively, followed up by a cover up.  This isn't just an honest disagreement between professionals, this is lying. 

The only person who ever claimed John Ramsey "disappeared" is the guy who wrote the book and profited from the case, with his "never heard before" info.  No one else substantiated this claim.

Why anyone would listen to a single word that lunatic Linda Arndt said, just boggles the mind.  This is the woman who knew immediately, just instantaneously, that JR was guilty simply by looking into his eyes.  Even better, she counted the people in the room, then determined she had enough bullets to shoot her way out of the house.  She says these things with full sincerity, lacking any self-awareness of how insane she sounds, and how she represents the antithesis of what a cop should be.  How she maintained a badge and gun is anyone's guess. 

The "experiment" with the ten year old child is one of the more disgusting things I've seen on a "news program". 

I stumbled across an amazing website when fact checking myself before posting on this topic in another thread.  I could kick myself for not bookmarking it.  It was pretty much a collection of all info on the subject.  For instance, there are links to each handwriting analysis report, so one can fact check a post like, "Patsy Ramsey was found to be an exact match to the handwriting in the ransom note", and determine the claim is false.   It was extremely detailed, including what's been and what's been disproven.  For instance, I found the link to a NBC report that both the FBI and the Secret Service analyzed the 911 tape, and in their opinion, "Burke's voice" doesn't exist.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I stumbled across an amazing website when fact checking myself before posting on this topic in another thread.  I could kick myself for not bookmarking it.  It was pretty much a collection of all info on the subject.  For instance, there are links to each handwriting analysis report, so one can fact check a post like, "Patsy Ramsey was found to be an exact match to the handwriting in the ransom note", and determine the claim is false.   It was extremely detailed, including what's been and what's been disproven.  For instance, I found the link to a NBC report that both the FBI and the Secret Service analyzed the 911 tape, and in their opinion, "Burke's voice" doesn't exist.

I posted the link in one of the intruder-did-it shows that aired last week. (I don't feel like looking for it now.) Anyway, that same site also provided information that another firm (that did work for NASA, IIRC) confirmed that those Ramsey conversations did take place. So, your facts about that being "disproven" are a bit misleading. 

ETA: Fuck it, I found the post.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Guest

[RedheadZombie]

51 minutes ago, Maharincess said:

And how do you know it didn't happen?  You speak of things like you know 100% without a doubt, where do you get your sources? 

I mentioned somewhere around here a website I found that provides links to the actual documents, pathology reports, witness statements, news reports, etc.  It's where I read the pathology report regarding speculation of previous sexual abuse, the handwriting analysis reports, the fact that no one backs up the one guy who claimed JR disappeared.  I'm not here making stuff up, although I understand it's possible considering twenty years of fallacy repeated as fact.  No one around here is quoting sources for what they're claiming as fact, so I'm not sure why the one who thinks the Ramseys are innocent should be required to do it.  But I'm going to look for that website, and if anyone is interested in the details, please PM me. 

12 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

Message board posters are not jury members and no one's convicting anyone of anything. Opinions are not convictions.

Of course not.