Hollywood History: The Real-Life "Feud" and More

[ennui]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Bette  Davis was nominated for her performance and nothing Joan did took that away from her. It just doesn't seem brutal to me that Joan was on the stage for about thirty seconds to pick-up another person's Oscar.

It's the visual image. Joan holding an Oscar. People see the pictures in the newspaper, and that's what they remember.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

22 hours ago, ruby24 said:

This show makes me want to see other stories from Old Hollywood, and other eras. I wish that had been the theme- Hollywood Scandals, and they could pick a different era for each season and some famous event that happened, besides just celebrity feuds in general (I don't think Charles and Diana is a very good idea for next season). They could do the Fatty Arbuckle story from the silent era, maybe the Natalie Wood/Robert Wagner situation, Alfred Hitchcock's terrorizing of his actresses. Stuff like that.

I would watch the heck out of a series about Natalie Wood/Robert Wagner. Please, Ryan Murphy! PLEASE!

[txhorns79]

Quote

Possibly because the message carries more weight from a high-powered producer like Cukor, who rightly pointed out what Crawford was planning would backfire and sink her career. And it appears to have done just that. Davis might not have won the Oscar but she went on to do some very high profile projects, even if some of them were on TV. Crawford never really did. 

Did it really sink her career?  I'm not saying she returned to being a big star, but I thought she made a few more movies after Baby Jane, did some television and just faded away, mostly due to alcoholism. 

[b2H]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Did it really sink her career?  I'm not saying she returned to being a big star, but I thought she made a few more movies after Baby Jane, did some television and just faded away, mostly due to alcoholism. 

It kind of did.  Wiki tells the story thus, I've added italics for emphasis:

Quote

 

That same year (1963), Crawford starred as Lucy Harbin in William Castle's horror mystery Strait-Jacket (1964). Robert Aldrich cast Crawford and Davis in Hush... Hush, Sweet Charlotte (1964). After a purported campaign of harassment by Davis on location in Louisiana, Crawford returned to Hollywood and entered a hospital. After a prolonged absence, during which Crawford was accused of feigning illness, Aldrich was forced to replace her with Olivia de Havilland. Crawford claimed to be devastated, saying "I heard the news of my replacement over the radio, lying in my hospital bed ... I cried for nine hours."[63] Crawford nursed grudges against Davis and Aldrich for the rest of her life, saying of Aldrich, "He is a man who loves evil, horrendous, vile things", to which Aldrich replied, "If the shoe fits, wear it, and I am very fond of Miss Crawford."[64] [emphasis mine]

In 1965 she played Amy Nelson in I Saw What You Did (1965), another William Castle vehicle. She starred as Monica Rivers in Herman Cohen's horror thriller film Berserk! (1967). After the film's release, Crawford guest-starred as herself on The Lucy Show. The episode, "Lucy and the Lost Star", first aired on February 26, 1968. Crawford struggled during rehearsals and drank heavily on-set, leading series star Lucille Ball to suggest replacing her with Gloria Swanson. However, Crawford was letter-perfect the day of the show, which included dancing the Charleston, and received two standing ovations from the studio audience.[65]

In October 1968, Crawford's 29-year-old daughter, Christina (who was then acting in New York on the CBS soap opera The Secret Storm), needed immediate medical attention for a ruptured ovarian tumor. Despite the fact that Christina's character was a 28-year-old and Crawford was in her sixties, Crawford offered to play her role until Christina was well enough to return, to which producer Gloria Monty readily agreed.[66]Although Crawford did well in rehearsal, she lost her composure while taping and the director and producer were left to struggle to piece together the necessary footage.[67]

Crawford's appearance in the 1969 television film Night Gallery (which served as pilot to the series that followed), marked one of Steven Spielberg's earliest directing jobs. She made a cameo appearance as herself in the first episode of the situation comedy The Tim Conway Show, which aired on January 30, 1970. She starred on the big screen one final time, playing Dr. Brockton in Herman Cohen's science fiction horror film Trog (1970), rounding out a career spanning 45 years and more than eighty motion pictures. Crawford made three more television appearances, as Stephanie White in a 1970 episode ("The Nightmare") of The Virginian[68] and as Joan Fairchild (her final performance) in a 1972 episode ("Dear Joan: We're Going to Scare You to Death") of The Sixth Sense.[69]

 

[txhorns79]

Quote

It kind of did.  Wiki tells the story thus, I've added italics for emphasis:

From what you've italicized, she left one movie because she thought Davis and Aldrich were plotting against her, and she struggled in future endeavors due to alcoholism and nerves.  The stuff on Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte could be related to the Oscar scheme (though she obviously was still hired for the picture), but it doesn't sound as if the other issues with her career had anything to do with the Oscar moment.    

Quote

I was distracted by Jessica's arms. And I felt guilty about that. But I think this is what happens when you hire a 60-something to portray a 50-something. 

 

It's funny.  Susan and Jessica are both much older than the actresses they are playing, but I thought both Joan and Bette looked pretty old for their ages in pictures from the time period (and Susan looks incredible), so I never would really notice the issue you mention.

[ennui]

20 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought both Joan and Bette looked pretty old for their ages in pictures from the time period

Their faces, yes, but probably not their bodies. As someone mentioned, Jessica is heavier that rail-thin Joan.

[smiley13]

4 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I would watch the heck out of a series about Natalie Wood/Robert Wagner. Please, Ryan Murphy! PLEASE!

I can't see that happening while Walken is still around.  He creeps me out.

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, smiley13 said:

I can't see that happening while Walken is still around.  He creeps me out.

Oy. Robert Wagner is still around too. And from what I've heard about that infamous night on the yacht, I'm not really sure a miniseries would be entirely respectful of Natalie's memory. A lot of booze, a gay encounter between Wagner and Walken, and Natalie hitting the roof. Not really sure this needs to be rehashed in a miniseries.

I think a good idea for the miniseries would be Elia Kazan and others who named names for the HUAC. Because that is a shameful memory and that needs to be rehashed because those people need to feel shitty forever for what they did.

[Pete Martell]

This has nothing to do with a feud (it may be more suited for those trial shows Murphy does), although it does obliquely involve Crawford (just because she was one of those at the big party I think, not because she had any role in any of what happened). It's a tough read but it's a look at just what women went through in the studio system days (and likely still go through, they're just better at hiding it). There was a documentary made on Patricia Douglas about ten years ago - I've never seen it, although it seems to have gotten mixed reviews.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/04/mgm200304

I have to admit I'm not really sure I'm all that interested in most of what Murphy would cover for a feud. I won't be watching the Chuck and Di one, as that has been covered a million times already and the real Diana was a hell of a lot more interesting than any onscreen versions of her have ever been. 

[psychoticstate]

On 4/5/2017 at 4:52 AM, qtpye said:

 

. 

I think the truth was somewhere in between.  I think Joan was a pill of a mother who probably would have been competitive with any high spirited child, particularly a girl.  I think Christina had her own issues and is probably not the nicest person in the world.  They most likely had a toxic relationship all their life.

When Joan adopted Christina and her brother she was just labeled box office poison.  When she adopted the twins, it was arguably one of the happiest times of her life.  She had just married Steele and for the first time felt secure personally and financially.  The twins were also probably naturally just more docile and less rebellious. Think of the difference between Lorelai Gilmore and Rory.

Christina thought her mother was a nasty shrew and Joan thought her daughter was eternally ungrateful.  When Christina decided to become an actress, things probably got worse.  She was most likely somewhat entitled and thought her name would open doors for her.  Joan could of probably helped her more, but why should she...Christina never appreciated anything.

I mean this is supposed to be a sympathetic portrayal of Joan and I think she is a nasty petty bitch and I would not be surprised if her daughter was the same way.  That does not mean that both women did not have bad childhoods, but there is a certain point we have to take agency for our own actions.

Also, it disappoints me that Lange had no interest in getting inside the head of Joan, in a non superficial way.  She is just pathetic and I actually like Faye's gorgon a lot better.  At lest the nasty lady in Mommie Dearest was a force of nature and not a mopey sad sack.

Joan was labelled "Box Office Poison" in 1937.  She adopted Christina in 1940, after her success with The Women and Strange Cargo and had A Woman's Face on the horizon.  At the time Christopher was adopted, in 1942 she was newly married to Phil Terry and reportedly happy. 

The twins were adopted in 1947, after her divorce from Terry.  She didn't marry Steele until 1955 or 1956.  

So, surprisingly, it would seem that she was at happy points in her personal and professional life when she adopted Christina and Christopher.  That said, I do believe the twins were more easygoing than either of the two older children. 

While the Dunaway version of Crawford is certainly more animated and a force of nature, I don't believe it's necessarily more overall accurate than Lange's portrayal.  Lange really hurt herself by not doing real research on Crawford.  With the internet, there's really no excuse.  Watch her interviews.  Watch her movies.  

23 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Did it really sink her career?  I'm not saying she returned to being a big star, but I thought she made a few more movies after Baby Jane, did some television and just faded away, mostly due to alcoholism. 

I don't think it did.  Joan was already past the "normal" working age for Hollywood at that time.  What she did with regard to the 1963 Oscars is not that shocking in Hollywood, where there are plenty of rivalries and beefs.  Since Baby Jane netted her many dollars, I don't think she necessarily had to work again. She took parts when she wanted and where she could.  She also continued working with Pepsi until around 1973.  I think it was right around this time, after she had retired with them that she elected to step out of public life. 

[holly4755]

sometimes people are not very nice when good things are happening to them and better when bad things happen, it makes they understand unhappiness more.  And husbands and marriages come with their own baggage.

I thought Joan didn't have to work after he last marriage, that guy was rich, wasn't he? 

[ennui]

38 minutes ago, holly4755 said:

I thought Joan didn't have to work after he last marriage, that guy was rich, wasn't he? 

Maybe she didn't need to work, but wanted to work? The tv series implies that Joan was strapped for cash (doing her own yardwork, getting fans to work around the house), as was Bette. They both had children and houses to support.

[Pete Martell]

11 minutes ago, ennui said:

Maybe she didn't need to work, but wanted to work? The tv series implies that Joan was strapped for cash (doing her own yardwork, getting fans to work around the house), as was Bette. They both had children and houses to support.

Some have said that execs back then were nowhere near as hugely paid as they are in recent years, and that she also blew through tons of his money on things like their NY apartment. I don't know. She had about $3 million when she died. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Pete Martell

[enoughcats]

One version of the later money problems talked about the NYC apartment.  A massive apartment that underwent a remodeling down to the girders.  
At that time she and her husband (Mr. Pepsi) were living on advances on his salary.  And once the advances started, all kinds of things got bought.  Apparently his unexpected early death meant that the advances stopped and then there were the pesky advances that had to be paid back.  

She continued with Pepsi, and (from descriptions of the people at her funeral) was so well loved by Pepsi distributors who felt she had helped them with growing Pepsi in their areas that many, many distributors came to her funeral, long after she had stopped being a face of Pepsi.

The daughter who wrote Mommy Dearest was very kind in her book to that one of the men Joan married, the only one that the Children were encouraged to call Daddy.

[ThatsDarling]

What a treat it was to see Anne Bancroft and Geraldine Page depicted on Feud this week. They, along with my other big favorite Kim Stanley, were of a generation of Method-trained actresses I find thrilling to watch onscreen.

Two years after her Oscar-winning performance in The Miracle Worker, Bancroft received an additional nomination for portraying a London housewife on the verge of a nervous breakdown in The Pumpkin Eater. She then played the iconic Mrs. Robinson in The Graduate, earning a third nomination. The three performances are so different in tone, voice, and physicality, it's remarkable they were given by the same person, and she would have been a deserving Academy winner for all three of them.

Geraldine Page was giving terrific performances up until her untimely death at the age of 62. I'm particularly fond of her work in Sweet Bird of Youth, Interiors, and The Trip to Bountiful. Along with Bancroft, she could never be pigeonholed into a certain type--she played fading movie stars, shy spinsters, manipulative mothers, comedy, and drama with the same amount of honesty and brilliance. 

I miss them both, and hope this series encourages the younger generation to check out their work.  
 

Edited April 6, 2017 by ThatsDarling

[NutMeg]

3 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

What she did with regard to the 1963 Oscars is not that shocking in Hollywood, where there are plenty of rivalries and beefs.  Since Baby Jane netted her many dollars, I don't think she necessarily had to work again. She took parts when she wanted and where she could.  She also continued working with Pepsi until around 1973.  I think it was right around this time, after she had retired with them that she elected to step out of public life. 

One ironic point which came from one of the articles/interviews regarding the Oscar episode is that Betty Davis stated that if an Oscar (hers, in this case) had been attached to the movie, Joan Crawford could have benefited to the tune of one million or more. And so she may have cut her nose to spite her face.

Another interesting point is that, after Crawford's stunt, for lack of a better word, Bette Davis was presenting an award (for best script , and the way Sinatra introduces her is super flattering and I wished we'd seen it (in essence, the writers would only accept an award  from someone who had x, y, x qualities - really, watch the video linked in the thread for the episode, it is amazing -and luckily here was Bette Davis who fit all the requirements). Also, it seems that Bette Davis got a standing ovation despite her no Oscar, which is warming my cold heart and which had had more traction is movie fandom than Joan Crawford and her pretend/borowed Oscar.          

[Jan Spears]

2 hours ago, holly4755 said:

I thought Joan didn't have to work after he last marriage, that guy was rich, wasn't he? 

 

2 hours ago, ennui said:

Maybe she didn't need to work, but wanted to work? The tv series implies that Joan was strapped for cash (doing her own yardwork, getting fans to work around the house), as was Bette. They both had children and houses to support.

Al Steele did leave Crawford a fair amount of money when he died in 1959. But, the estate taxes ate up a large part of the inheritance. Also, Crawford and Steele had undertaken the very expensive renovation of the New York apartment. All of this left Crawford with a major cash flow problem in 1959. In part, that's why she took the supporting part (her first in over 30 years) in The Best of Everything.

Regarding Garbo and her drift into retirement, one other factor that may have played into her thinking was how Mayer brought in Greer Garson and Hedy Lamarr in the late-1930s. In essence, Mayer divided the Garbo persona in two and hired two different actresses to fill each half: Garson to do the heavy lifting on the "prestige" parts that Garbo had been doing and Lamarr to fill the glamorous, "exotic" European role that had been a big part of Garbo's image in the 20s and 30s.

[TigerLynx]

I remember from Gloria Swanson's book (her last husband was the ghost writer for it), she talked about spending lavishly when she was making movies, and not thinking about her finances until the movie roles dried up.  Also, some of these people were making huge amounts of money before there was such a thing as an income tax.

Unlike Mary Pickford, Gloria Swanson seemed to accept she had to move on, and she began other careers for herself.  Swanson had a more philosophical attitude about things.  There were some things she regretted, she couldn't go back and change stuff, so she moved forward.  Originally, Gloria Swanson's mother and aunt wanted her to be an opera singer.  Swanson and Chaplin became friends, but at first Chaplin didn't think Swanson could act, and Swanson told Chaplin she didn't think he was funny.

I think Bette was more straight forward than Joan.  If Bette had a problem or didn't like something, she spoke up, she didn't passive aggressive her way through it.

I don't know why they want to do a SL on Charles and Diana.   That story has been covered forwards and backwards and inside out.  I did think it was interesting that Andrew Parker Bowles seems to be the only one with half a brain.  Andrew knew Camilla was cheating on him with Charles, and Andrew was cheating on Camilla with other women.  While everyone else was telling Charles to marry Diana, and people told Diana she couldn't back out, she had to go through with the wedding, Andrew told Charles if he was going to bring another person into the situation, he had better make sure she would understand and be okay with it, or things would not go well for any of them.

[qtpye]

39 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

While everyone else was telling Charles to marry Diana, and people told Diana she couldn't back out, she had to go through with the wedding, Andrew told Charles if he was going to bring another person into the situation, he had better make sure she would understand and be okay with it, or things would not go well for any of them.

The prince comes from a long line of stupid men, Oxford degree aside.  So the answer to your question, is that yes, the prince was that stupid, to think an inexperienced girl of eighteen could handle that shit and be the Princess of Wales.

[DasFlavorPup]

On 4/5/2017 at 8:18 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Oy. Robert Wagner is still around too. And from what I've heard about that infamous night on the yacht, I'm not really sure a miniseries would be entirely respectful of Natalie's memory. A lot of booze, a gay encounter between Wagner and Walken, and Natalie hitting the roof. Not really sure this needs to be rehashed in a miniseries.

I think a good idea for the miniseries would be Elia Kazan and others who named names for the HUAC. Because that is a shameful memory and that needs to be rehashed because those people need to feel shitty forever for what they did.

Actually, there was a movie out already back in 2004, but it's up in full (for now) on YouTube - called "The Mystery of Natalie Wood".

Edited April 7, 2017 by DasFlavorPup

[enoughcats]

Our Library has the book "George Hurrell's Hollywood" and it is magnificent.  Not just photographs, but the commentary deserves time spent appreciating it.

First page I opened was a picture of Clark Gable before his face got furrowed and more interesting.  Then I started seeing Joan Crawford, and more Joan and more Joan.  Hurrell's camera loved her. 

Hurrell wrote (page 205)

Quote

In late 1935, Hurrell went to Crawford's home for a special session.  She and Franchot Tone had wed on October 11 and she wanted Hurrell to make the first portraits of them as a married couple.  Crawford also want to include her Dachshunds, Buebbschen and Baby, which took time and patience. Then there were shots of Tone by himself.  Crawford was indefatigable.  She and Hurrell got so carried away that they exposed five hundred sheets of film that day.  ............

A few years later, in an International Photographer interview, Hurrell said," Joan Crawford is the most decorative subject I have ever photographed.  There is a strength and vitality about her that prevails even in the finished print.  If I were a sculptor, I would be satisfied with just doing Joan Crawford all the time."

 

 

The chapter in that book titled "The Muse" has breathtaking photos of Joan Crawford.  She was so much more than later photographs showed.

And I am angered at the Feud's presentation, because that, like Mommy Dearest's images, will overprint in most minds the beauty that she was and how she deserves to be remembered.

[Jan Spears]

Carrying this over from the 'And the Winner Is . . .' thread . . .

CARACAS1914 wrote: "While it seems like a minor point, but was George Cukor really such a good friend of Joan's up to the 60's?"

Actually, yes -- they remained fast friends until Crawford's death. Cukor read a tribute to Crawford at the Beverly Hills memorial service, which was also printed in the New York Times:

http://www.joancrawfordbest.com/cukortribute.htm

You can also read examples of their correspondence during the 70s which illustrate their friendship:

http://www.joancrawfordbest.com/letters.htm

(Look for January 14, 1970, October 15, 1973, and August 13, 1974.)

On the whole, I'm enjoying Feud immensely. But one thing I think it's doing poorly is portraying Crawford as being virtually friendless. That's not true. Crawford remained fast friends with Myrna Loy, Roz Russell and Barbara Stanwyck until her last breath. Younger actresses like Ann Blyth and Diane Baker also spoke warmly about her even after she died, when it was easy to take pot shots at Crawford.

enoughcats wrote: "The chapter in that book titled "The Muse" has breathtaking photos of Joan Crawford.  She was so much more than later photographs showed."

I own that book and the photos are indeed stunning. Of all of Hurrell's subjects in the 20s/30s/40s, Crawford holds the record for the most distinct sittings -- 33, each one comprised of hundreds of photographs. (Norma Shearer comes in right behind her with 32 sittings.) In fact, when Hurrell was under contract to MGM, Crawford would wait until the male stars (who didn't usually want to spend a lot of time being photographed) finished their sittings with Hurrell to go play golf or tennis and Crawford would use the remaining sitting time to have Hurrell take more photos of her. You can call that abnormal vanity. But you can also call it self-discipline.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Jan Spears

[benteen]

Steven Spielberg was also on good terms with Joan.  His first directing job in TV was directing her in the Night Gallery pilot and despite a rocky start, the two kept in touch until her death in 1977.

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, enoughcats said:

 Crawford also want to include her Dachshunds, Buebbschen and Baby, which took time and patience

I love people who love Dachshunds.

http://ilovedachshundszone.ccnetworks.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Celebrities Dachshunds/Joan-Crawford-looking-absolutely-lovely-complete-with-a-darling-pair-of-Dachshunds-in-1940-Reduced.jpg

Edited April 7, 2017 by JudyObscure

[ABay]

Wiener dogs make everything better.

[methodwriter85]

9 hours ago, DasFlavorPup said:

Actually, there was a movie out already back in 2004, but it's up in full (for now) on YouTube - called "The Mystery of Natalie Wood".

I thought they did a great job with Natalie and RJ, but wow, the Christopher Walken was awful. I also think they had to cut out any indication of RJ's bisexuality for fear of being sued into the ground.

[Arynm]

That picture above with the Dachshunds is the first I have seen that bridges the gap for me of young Joan and old Joan. They looked so diametrically different I could not reconcile the two. Thanks for that!

I love young Joan, her movies of the 30's and early 40's are some of my favorites along with Kay Francis. When I watch her movies I never see the old, hard bitter Joan that is usually portrayed now. It is sad because she was so much more than Mommie Dearest and unfortunately she has been reduced to that now. It is also sad that she felt she had to do the things she did to stay relevant.

[TigerLynx]

3 hours ago, Arynm said:

That picture above with the Dachshunds is the first I have seen that bridges the gap for me of young Joan and old Joan. They looked so diametrically different I could not reconcile the two. Thanks for that!

I love young Joan, her movies of the 30's and early 40's are some of my favorites along with Kay Francis. When I watch her movies I never see the old, hard bitter Joan that is usually portrayed now. It is sad because she was so much more than Mommie Dearest and unfortunately she has been reduced to that now. It is also sad that she felt she had to do the things she did to stay relevant.

Costello's daughter Carol wrote a book about him, and she said in an interview if it had been a Mommie Dearest type book, someone would have wanted to make a movie out of it, but it wasn't that kind of book.  Carol said her parents were great, they loved their children, and their children loved them.  Sadly, that doesn't seem to be as interesting to people as hearing bad stuff is.  Carol did say she heard from a lot of her father's fans that were thrilled to know she had a happy childhood, and that Costello was a nice guy.

I have to wonder how many of these people wouldn't have had children or gotten married if it was expected of them.  Mary Pickford adopted children, but she didn't seem interested in raising them.  Her son said she wasn't abusive, she just never had time for them.  Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks' publicity by the studios were that they were Hollywood Royalty (American's sweetheart, and leading man).  Fairbanks was known as the King of Hollywood before anyone had ever heard of Clark Gable.  They forgot to mention that Pickford and Fairbanks were married to other people, and cheating on them when they first got together.  Fairbanks was very athletic, and did a lot of his own stunts decades before it became fashionable for stars to do that.

Lucille Ball usually played the bad girl, the girl who didn't get the guy, or one of the supporting characters in movies.  A lot of people have noted when they would be rehearsing, that occasionally Lucy would say something funny, and everyone would laugh.  Normally someone as attractive as Lucy was would be noticed for their looks, but her humor was what people responded to.

When George Burns and Gracie Allen first worked together, their roles were reversed, but George noticed when Gracie would say something funny or naïve, the audience responded to it.  So he became the straight guy to Gracie's comedian.

I think Bette Davis is remembered fondly because she was upfront about her disagreements in Hollywood from day one, and later on she could laugh about it.  In one of her movies, the character she plays is dying.  The character knows that and has accepted her death.  The final scene is Bette walking upstairs.  Bette didn't like the music that they were going to play over her final scene.  She thought it was to dark and dramatic.  I can't remember the name of the composer, but Bette told the director and producer, "Either I'm going up those stairs, or so and sos music is going up those stairs, but we damn well aren't going up those stairs together."  After arguing for a while, the director and producer agreed with Bette, she did the scene, and in the final cut the director and producer added the music back in.  Bette was pissed, but years later she joked about it and how even if you thought you won in Hollywood, you didn't really win.

Edited April 8, 2017 by TigerLynx

[enoughcats]

41 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I have to wonder how many of these people wouldn't have had children or gotten married if it was expected of them.

In the Hurrell photo book, there're pictures of "Modern day Madonna", Norma Schearer with a lovely child, even though she had no children.

This isn't from that book, but shows a similar moppet. Maybe this was the start of the "adopt a blond child" trend.

 

[spaceghostess]

On 3/13/2017 at 7:27 AM, delicatecutter said:

Bette Davis was one of the most fascinating women I've ever seen. I've been watching old interviews with her on YouTube. The one with Dick Cavett from 1971 is a treasure. She's so sharp and funny. She has such so much charisma and is a joy to behold. I just love her so much.

 

Chiming in a month later to say thanks for posting the Cavett interview, which is one of my favorite things ever. I caught it on TCM a few years ago and was rapt throughout. It made me love Bette even more--and I've been a huge fan practically since birth. She had Cavett wrapped around her little finger (and she was rocking the beret, tall boots, and tinted glasses like nobody's business).

[ennui]

On 4/7/2017 at 11:17 AM, qtpye said:

The prince comes from a long line of stupid men, Oxford degree aside.  So the answer to your question, is that yes, the prince was that stupid, to think an inexperienced girl of eighteen could handle that shit and be the Princess of Wales.

Age is not to blame. Victoria was 18 and inexperienced when she became Queen, and she handled it. Charles was under a lot of pressure to get married and produce an heir, and Diana was suitable. 

[qtpye]

Quote

Age is not to blame. Victoria was 18 and inexperienced when she became Queen, and she handled it. Charles was under a lot of pressure to get married and produce an heir, and Diana was suitable. . 

She also insisted on marrying a penniless German cousin that loved and respected her intensely.  They had a happy marriage and he was a great help to her and his death devastated her to the core. 

None of these things are true about the Charles and Diana marriage.

Edited April 8, 2017 by qtpye

[holly4755]

In truth very few people are loved universally, slice people up and show different slices to different people, and you will get different reactions.  Neither Joan nor Bette were universally loved nor were they universally hated.  I was friends with a woman who was a horrendous mother,  she had a horrible mother and I don't think ever learned to mother kids, it was not deliberate - but I didn't hate her, I just tried to be there when her kids needed me. How horrible could she be? she wanted her kids to be popular so she bought her daughters beer to take to high school parties.  She was just clueless  The youngest called me and asked me to tell her mother no on that one, the oldest one just took the beer .  She wasn't evil, just had no common sense.

I think we can agree that certain acts are bad or good, and that neither were great mothers but other than that , we will have to disagree

The dogs in the pictures of celebrities unless it is the same dog over and over (see Carrie Fisher), make me nervous. It is pretty well known that the Kardashians get puppies take a lot of pictures with them and then a few months later they are gone (don't know where, given away to friends or shelters I guess). Paris Hilton is known to go through a lot of dogs. South Park was merciless with her and her changing dogs.  So unless it is a well loved dog, I hate seeing pictures of celebrities and dogs. In fact the whole dog thing with Ellen made me really dislike her, Trashing a regular person on air by name during her show, was pretty much uncalled for, especially since I was volunteering for a shelter at the time and know why the rules Ellen did not like existed i.e. for the safety of the dog . 

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

I don't know why they want to do a SL on Charles and Diana. 

Let's take further conversation on Season Two of Feud over to the Season Two Speculation topic.

[psychoticstate]

On 4/8/2017 at 8:27 AM, Arynm said:

That picture above with the Dachshunds is the first I have seen that bridges the gap for me of young Joan and old Joan. They looked so diametrically different I could not reconcile the two. Thanks for that!

I love young Joan, her movies of the 30's and early 40's are some of my favorites along with Kay Francis. When I watch her movies I never see the old, hard bitter Joan that is usually portrayed now. It is sad because she was so much more than Mommie Dearest and unfortunately she has been reduced to that now. It is also sad that she felt she had to do the things she did to stay relevant.

Young Joan was crazy gorgeous.  It's too bad that Joan isn't seen as much as the 1950s Joan, where she has the severe haircut, eyebrows and lips.  Funny enough, I think by the 1960s her look softened again and she appeared younger than she had a decade earlier. 

I too adore Kay Francis.  Since she was considered very tall for the period (5'7") she looked spectacular in the fashions of the day.  She was, as they used to say, the living end.

The picture of Norma Shearer above is stunning.  It may have been taken before she and Irving Thalberg had children but they did have children - - a son and a daughter.  I think if the choice had been up to Norma, she would not have had any, at least not while her career was red hot.  Her pregnancies took her off the screen and those were the days when you were only as good as your last picture.  Of course, her first pregnancy led to Joan being cast in "Paid," a role that was meant for Norma. 

[Jan Spears]

Carrying this over from the 'Hagsploitation' thread:

"(And there are also a few others confused in there, too, like Katherine Hepburn offering not much help to a book proposal aiming to set the record straight after Mommie Dearest, but expressing her sympathies with Joan.)"

You can find the letters to Joan Crawford here, including the Katharine Hepburn letter to one of Crawford's younger daughters in 1979:

http://www.joancrawfordbest.com/m.htm

In Hepburn's defense, I don't think she and Crawford were ever anything more than passing acquaintances during that period when their respective stays at MGM overlapped (1940-1943) so I doubt she had much in the way of anecdotes with which to rebut Christina Crawford's story. If you read the 1995 letter Hepburn wrote, though, she did say that she never bought Christina's story.

Barbara Stanwyck's letter to the daughter (also from 1979) is a great read and shows that Stanwyck held Crawford in high esteem.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Jan Spears

[TigerLynx]

I wonder if they will do anything else with Bette or Joan in other seasons.  They both clashed with other people besides each other, and Bette was very vocal about some of them.

[Jan Spears]

3 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I wonder if they will do anything else with Bette or Joan in other seasons.  They both clashed with other people besides each other, and Bette was very vocal about some of them.

I don't think there's a big enough audience for it (the way there is for Crawford-Davis) but they could do Davis and Miriam Hopkins:

https://classicmoviesdigest.blogspot.com/2010/06/bette-vs-miriam-bout-of-divas-meow.html

More on Davis-Hopkins (most relevant content is at the end):

http://www.altfg.com/film/miriam-hopkins/

[Growsonwalls]

I think they could do Laurence Olivier and Vivien Leigh. Now that was one hot mess of a relationship, to put it mildly. So much material to mine.

[Inquisitionist]

10 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think they could do Laurence Olivier and Vivien Leigh. Now that was one hot mess of a relationship, to put it mildly. So much material to mine.

But in what way was it a "feud"?  Leigh was bi-polar, something that wasn't recognized medically at the time, I think.  She and Olivier both struggled with the fall-out of her condition, but it's not like they ever hated each other, as far as I know.

[Growsonwalls]

34 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

But in what way was it a "feud"?  Leigh was bi-polar, something that wasn't recognized medically at the time, I think.  She and Olivier both struggled with the fall-out of her condition, but it's not like they ever hated each other, as far as I know.

I don't think Charles and Diana really "hated" each other either. They were spectacularly mismatched as a couple and it was a toxic relationship but I don't think hate is the right word either in that relationship.

[barbedwire]

I cannot get enough of this show but like many of you, Charles and Diana?  That is the next one?  Was kinda hoping they would stay with old Hollywood.  And to whomever posted the Vanity Fair "truth and fiction of each episode" link: thank you!

[henrysmom]

Quote

 Was kinda hoping they would stay with old Hollywood.

I was too.  So many great stories in old Hollywood.  But I had to explain to more than one person who Bette Davis and Joan Crawford were (the people who knew Crawford only knew Mommy Dearest) when I was talking about this show.  If two absolute, unquestioned legends are not known by a younger generation (I'm nearly 50) I have no idea what people would make of Miriam Hopkins, or even Joan Fontaine and Olivia DeHavilland.  And I'm guessing my great wish of the Gypsy Rose Lee/June Havoc feud being done is never going to be realized.  Shame because that is a fascinating story.

[psychoticstate]

Old Hollywood has so much material!  

Charlie Chaplin certainly had a lot of dirt, although maybe not a specific "feud," unless you buy into the W. R. Hearst killing Thomas Ince story.   I think John Gilbert would be fascinating (but I loooooooove 1920s and 1930s Hollywood.)  Gilbert was a major silent screen star; he had a lot of relationships but his most famous was with Garbo, his frequent leading lady.  They were engaged  and Garbo notoriously stood him up at the altar, leading Louis B. Mayer (their boss) to suggest that Gilbert get over it and just continue effing her.  Gilbert reportedly punched Mayer and Mayer allegedly got his revenge by ruining Gilbert's talking picture career by futzing with the sound, making Gilbert appear to have a high pitched voice.  (I've watched some of Gilbert's talking performances and he wasn't high pitched, at least not any more so than anyone else of that period thanks to the early sound recording equipment.)  He basically drank himself to death in 1936 (but not before writing and appearing in the fantastically underrated "Downstairs," a movie truly made decades before its time.)  

Back to Crawford and Davis.  I think if Joan had any lengthy feud, it was with herself, her mother and brother or maybe her two elder children.  

[tennisgurl]

4 hours ago, henrysmom said:

If two absolute, unquestioned legends are not known by a younger generation (I'm nearly 50) I have no idea what people would make of Miriam Hopkins, or even Joan Fontaine and Olivia DeHavilland.

I don't know, I think a lot would depend on the show itself and how well it told its story. I'm 27, and I have always found old Hollywood to be really fascinating, and while I cant say I knew a whole lot about Bette and Joan's off screen lives before this show, but its been super interesting to me. And I don't think its just me. I do lots of programs with college students, and I recently had a film series where I showed the students old movies (Some Like it Hot, The Lady Eve...) and spoke with them about the history of film, and they were actually really interested. I think some of them were surprised at how good the movies were, and were interested in learning more about old films and classic Hollywood actors and actresses. And those were college kids about 18-22 years old.

I mentioned in another thread that I would have liked a season with the romance between Lupe Velez and Gary Cooper in the late 20s/early 30s. They had tons of drama, passion, connections to the rest of silent/golden age Hollywood, and you could probably do some interesting things with racial and gender politics. I don't know if its a feud in the way Joan/Bette were, but she did shoot at him one time, so that's got to count for something. Or maybe Orson Wells and William Randolph Heart, which had politics, scandal, journalism, corruption, all kinds of stuff.

2 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

I think John Gilbert would be fascinating (but I loooooooove 1920s and 1930s Hollywood.)  

Same here! John Gilbert would be a super interesting story, even if it has a sad ending. 1920s/1930s Hollywood has tons great material to mine from. People act like Hollywood today is a sin filled land of vice, and its pretty much been like that from day one, just they cared more about hiding it back then. I've always loved Clara Bow, it would be cool to see them to something with her too. She also got screwed over by the studios and had a rather tragic life, but she was really interesting as well. I actually think it would be nice to give spotlight to old school stars who aren't very well known now.

Edited April 12, 2017 by tennisgurl

[ennui]

31 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

1920s/1930s Hollywood has tons great material to mine from.

I haven't seen much on Fatty Arbuckle; he was acquitted but his career destroyed. 

George Reeves's death was whitewashed.

However, if it has to be a feud, I got nothing.

[tennisgurl]

47 minutes ago, ennui said:

I haven't seen much on Fatty Arbuckle; he was acquitted but his career destroyed

Fatty Arbuckles story was so very unfair and sad. He sounded like he was a decent guy and he was a really talented performer, and his whole life was destroyed just because some attention seekers and trash journalists thought it would get attention or sell papers to play him up as some kind of Jazz Age Jaba the Hutt over a crime everyone seems to be convinced he was totally innocent of in retrospect. It would honestly be really cool to see something tell his story from a sympathetic perspective and set the record straight.

Or maybe they could do something surrounding the death of Thelma Todd, a comic actress from the 30s who died under mysterious circumstances and might have been murdered by her jealous ex, or the silent movie director William Desmond Taylor, who was murdered and the killer was never caught, and its possible the studio covered some things up that they considered embarrassing, or even Peg Entwhistle, the struggling actress who killed herself by jumping off the Hollywood sign in the 20s.

Again, maybe not a traditional feud, but certainly a whole lot of conflict.

Edited April 12, 2017 by tennisgurl

[psychoticstate]

All excellent suggestions!  

Clara Bow could fit in with the feud theme as she ended up with quite a nasty one with her secretary, Daisy DeVoe.  DeVoe appeared to have embezzled some cash, Clara called the cops on her, ended up in court and Daisy testified about some pretty salacious things.  Clara's career, combined with the coming of sound, never recovered.  Of course, this is an addition to the fact that she had a majorly creepy father who supposedly raped her, she had an affair with Gary Cooper (lucky gal!) and her loud, Brooklyn accent made her completely unsuitable for talkies of the time.  And let's not forget the rumor/urban legend that Clara took on the entire USC Trojans football team and girl was so highly sexed she even made it with a German Shepherd.  Seriously, the stars today have nothing on those of yesteryear!  

[Jan Spears]

4 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

Gilbert reportedly punched Mayer and Mayer allegedly got his revenge by ruining Gilbert's talking picture career by futzing with the sound, making Gilbert appear to have a high pitched voice.  (I've watched some of Gilbert's talking performances and he wasn't high pitched, at least not any more so than anyone else of that period thanks to the early sound recording equipment.)  

I think what really hurt Gilbert was his first full-length talking picture, His Glorious Night (1929), which had been insufficiently modified from a silent movie script. In particular, the love scenes were in the overemphatic manner of a silent movie and provoked laughter and derision from 1929 audiences. (These scenes were famously parodied in 1952's Singin' in the Rain.)

I've always admired Garbo for insisting that Gilbert be cast opposite her in Queen Christina (1933) despite Mayer's vehement objections. (Garbo had cast approval so she could overrule Mayer.) As Garbo and Gilbert's fellow silent movie star Colleen Moore noted, "Garbo had a long memory. She remembered all the times he had helped her career."

[Epeolatrix]

I think a Clara Bow bio-pic would be good, if only to debunk a lot of the crap her secretary said, but that's not a feud so much as a vendetta. A good feud, like a duel, should involve two reasonably matched opponents.