Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Lady Edith]

On July 20, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Absolom said:

Of course you can receive communion if divorced.  It's getting remarried without a church annulment first that makes it so people are not supposed to receive communion.  Although at least in large communities no one knows and no one asks.

Truth.  My parents divorced when I was a young teen.  My dad was Catholic.  He remarried and didn't have his marriage to my mom annulled.  He was excommunicated until he had the annulment.  

With Anna, she would have no hope of ever remarrying if she and Josh divorced.  I have a lifelong friend who is Southern Baptist.  She married a man who had an affair their first year of marriage.  She filed for divorce and told me that she can never remarry because it would be seen as adultry in the eyes of her church.  i believe that the Duggar brand of Christisnity is the same.

[Absolom]

Your friend may be confused or it may be her immediate congregation. It could also be her own personal view.  Adultery is the ultimate conservative out.  If you divorce someone because they commit adultery, then in most Southern Baptist churches no one blinks if you remarry.   We have two such couples in our little neighborhood here.  Anna with Gothardism is living with a stricter legalism.  I expect Jim Bob would try to tell her she should never re-marry, but he would have ulterior motives.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Absolom

[RazzleberryPie]

Gothardism tells Anna that Josh's adultry is her fault. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

33 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Your friend may be confused or it may be her immediate congregation. It could also be her own personal view.  Adultery is the ultimate conservative out.  If you divorce someone because they commit adultery, then in most Southern Baptist churches no one blinks if you remarry.   We have two such couples in our little neighborhood here.  Anna with Gothardism is living with a stricter legalism.  I expect Jim Bob would try to tell her she should never re-marry, but he would have ulterior motives.

Most Baptist congregations seem to permit remarriage. Some pastors may refuse to perform a wedding if one party was not "blameless" in their divorce. I've heard of this being done in the past, but I'm not sure if it's common practice nowadays, except in stricter churches.

[Portia]

I absolutely know some Southern Baptists who consider remarriage after divorce sinful. The most common reason I've heard cited is that remarriage closes the door to future reconciliation. I knew a lot more of these people 20+ years ago, though; this attitude is becoming pretty rare. Besides, these days, gays--not divorcees--are the greatest threat to Christian marriage! 

As has already been mentioned, individual Baptist congregations vary, but in my experience they run the gamut from A to B: from extremely conservative to pretty damn conservative. 

[JoanArc]

Josh's instgram raptured!

Well....the one his family knows about.

[Sew Sumi]

Too bad his twitter has all those pictures with disgusting politicians who probably tried to wash their hands of the Duggars for good after even Joshgate I. 

Too bad the internet lives forever! Dumbass.

Dying to know what his incognito account is. But would any of his sisters, including those who run "duggarfam" even follow it? I doubt any of those young women speak with him, not that they seemed to have much of a relationship with him to begin with. Any relationship they had was mediated between them and Anna, even if Anna didn't know a thing about what happened. 

[Sew Sumi]

From the Benessa thread: 

I dunno, but I suspect Smuggar still had his health insurance at that point so maybe she took advantage of that.  Arkansas must have some real midwives in addition to questionable ones the Duggars use.

We don't know the details of Smuggar's termination of employment from the FRC, other than it was a sudden break. We don't know whether he resigned or if he was fired on the spot. At best, he might have gotten 6 weeks severance out of this situation, but I wouldn't be surprised if he got nothing, due to the nature of the situation. For that certain organization, definitely a firing offense. If he got nothing, he's lucky that he still had TLC cash to pay for Anna's care. Don't those backwoods midwives pretty much deal in cash anyway? The patients are just screwed if there's a hospital transfer. Anna's been lucky...so far. Derick was still at Wally World when Izzy was born, so they were covered for her c-section, but who knows what insurance Benessa had (if any) to pay for her hospital transfer/transfusion. 

If Smuggar was able to get insurance, good for him, but it would have been Obamacare-related. Icky! I seriously doubt Samaritan would take him after Joshgate, because they look at your "character" as part of the application process. I think molesting your sisters is a fail, even for fundies. 

[birkenstock]

I would hope that the FRC would still cover a 7-month pregnant woman. For being so pro-life and pro-family, leaving a woman without insurance so close to her due date is really shitty. While it 100% falls on Josh and the FRC has the right to do so, it's sad that Anna was the one who had to face the consequences of having the backwoods homebirth. 

Would Anna and the kids be able to get Samaritan insurance even if Josh was prohibited? Also, does TLC have healthcare they can buy into?   

[Sew Sumi]

I also hope that the FRC didn't leave Anna in a ditch, but most severance, even in good terms, is what, 6 weeks? Anna was 8 weeks from her due date when Joshgate exploded. However, he left under such a cloud, I could see them cutting all ties right away with no concern for his pregnant wife. Anna's usefulness to their organization died the second Smuggar was fired/resigned (we will never know what really happened).

TLC is all contract, so I doubt they insure the "talent." Regarding Samaritan, I checked the guidelines, and because Smuggar had extra-marital sex, he wouldn't qualify. There's also the issue about treating your body like a temple. Oops! However, they do allow the "one-person" family plan, so Anna and the kids could be covered. She seems to hit all of their marks. 

I suppose they could have gotten her on this; the Duggars used to (and may still) use this. 

[Churchhoney]

I would be very very very surprised if they didn't continue paying for the Smugs' insurance through the pregnancy, birth and early infancy.

Under the circumstances, the last thing they wanted was to give anyone an excuse to brand them with hypocrisy that could be compared to Smugs' hypocrisy. They were well aware of the media crapstorm they would have faced had there been some baby-related medical crisis and their many critics had found out that the self-righteous, pro-life, pro-family group had dropped health insurance coverage for a young mother with a baby on the way, when she was already a betrayed spouse. They're ideological crazies but they're also savvy beltway players and not stupid hick cheapskates like Jim Bob. Women with graduate degrees work there.

Their top consideration when Smugs left had to be how they could make everyone forget their involvement with him as quickly as possible. If they'd stopped covering Anna's health care, they would have needlessly risked a health crisis for her that could -- and would -- have been quickly tied back to their actions. And a story like that, which would have had real legs in the media, would have emphasized their relationship to Smuggar, not helped it get lost in the mists of time, as they certainly hoped for. I'd bet real money that forestalling that eventuality was worth the 10 or 15 thou it cost them to continue the Smugs' insurance till well after the birth.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

How much would health insurance cost for a family of 6? How much would it cost for a family of 18?

[Sew Sumi]

Churchie, I hope you're right. It's easy to armchair quarterback a year later, but they had to move quickly at the time. I guess they must have contingency plans for people representing the FRC who go rogue or have skeletons in their closets. 

Edited July 30, 2016 by Sew Sumi
Added Churchie's name, since Koka's post snuck in between. :)

[Churchhoney]

1 minute ago, Sew Sumi said:

I hope you're right. It's easy to armchair quarterback a year later, but they had to move quickly at the time. I guess they must have contingency plans for people representing the FRC who go rogue or have skeletons in their closets. 

I'm sure they do by now because it's been happening to them since the beginning!

[Sew Sumi]

6 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

How much would health insurance cost for a family of 6? How much would it cost for a family of 18?

A shit ton, other than Scamaritan, where in both instances, they could pay only $400/mo. BUT you have to play by their rules, and they are strict as hell. 

http://samaritanministries.org/costs/monthly/

Guidelines. Relevant rules stuff starts on p.14:

http://samaritanministries.org/how-it-works/guidelines/

Edited July 30, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Churchhoney]

10 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

How much would health insurance cost for a family of 6? How much would it cost for a family of 18?

For a family of six maybe $18,000 to $20,000 a year or thereabouts, I'd guess. Kids are less expensive to insure, but births run it up.

[kokapetl]

Do employers get a better deal when insuring their employees?

[Churchhoney]

3 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Do employers get a better deal when insuring their employees?

Yeah, an employer group will be cheaper. Costs can be spread among the group, which helps because in any pre-formed group only a few people are likely to be really big spenders in any given year. Plus, insurers have learned that people with fulltime, regular gainful employment tend to be among the healthiest people in society as are their dependent families. ... Of course, bigger employer groups get the best deals, because the cost spreading is easiest for a big group. FRC is relatively small, so they'd have a medium-sized payment. Much less than an individual or a very tiny business would pay, but more than a huge company would pay.

[kokapetl]

I hope TLC provides health insurance for all the families, and that Anna's appearance on the show gets her family coverage. 

[Sew Sumi]

I don't think reality show stars get company benefits as actors working for a network show would. I think even the Kartrashians have to find insurance independent of E! network. 

Let's remember that most states don't even require that kids on reality shows be given a trust account. Remember how PA passed a law to protect the Gosselin kids? The Coogan law only pertains to child actors on network shows, not reality-based programming. 

Edited July 30, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Churchhoney]

42 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

I hope TLC provides health insurance for all the families, and that Anna's appearance on the show gets her family coverage. 

I hope it, too, but I don't think it'd actually happen in a million years, unfortunately. I'm afraid the whole point of reality tv is to keep costs down as low as possible, don't you think? The crapweasels might even welcome illness as a plot point. And I wish I were kidding!

[BitterApple]

IIRC, participants in reality shows are considered independent contractors and not employees of the network. Therefore, I don't think they'd get any sort of insurance coverage through TLC. 

I'm assuming Josh got some sort of severance package from the FRC, which may have included an extension of his benefits for x number of months. In regards to Anna, I'm shocked there hasn't been an M5 announcement yet.

[Sew Sumi]

See, I don't think he got severance, but hope that the FRC had the heart to cover Anna's insurance as Churchie outlined above. It was just to sudden and too big of a story to sweep under the rug for him to quietly sneak away with compensation to just go away. Smuggar's announcement implies that he resigned, but the FRC might have allowed him to say what he wanted in return for immediate termination. 

[OpieTaylor]

5 hours ago, birkenstock said:

I would hope that the FRC would still cover a 7-month pregnant woman. For being so pro-life and pro-family, leaving a woman without insurance so close to her due date is really shitty. While it 100% falls on Josh and the FRC has the right to do so, it's sad that Anna was the one who had to face the consequences of having the backwoods homebirth. 

Would Anna and the kids be able to get Samaritan insurance even if Josh was prohibited? Also, does TLC have healthcare they can buy into?   

SmugAnna and family were likely able to continue their insurance through COBRA, which is offered to just about everyone, I think, when they lose their job. SmugAnna would have to pay for it themselves, but it exists so that people don't end up suddenly uninsured. I think it's available for at least 6 months. Hopefully they had enough money to buy it.

It occurs to me that now they should be eligible for Medicaid, shouldn't they? Unless Anna is making quite a bit of money from being on Counting On, they are basically unemployed. 

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, OpieTaylor said:

SmugAnna and family were likely able to continue their insurance through COBRA, which is offered to just about everyone, I think, when they lose their job. SmugAnna would have to pay for it themselves, but it exists so that people don't end up suddenly uninsured. I think it's available for at least 6 months. Hopefully they had enough money to buy it.

It occurs to me that now they should be eligible for Medicaid, shouldn't they? Unless Anna is making quite a bit of money from being on Counting On, they are basically unemployed. 

Yeah, the TLC money definitely determines whether they can get Medicaid. I have no idea what TLC would be paying Anna for this show, though, and do we know that Josh isn't working at all? The kids and Anna when pregnant are fairly likely to be covered, I would think, but who knows? Here are the current Arkansas eligibility criteria for their Medicaid expansion under the Affordable Care Act:

"Who is eligible

Children from 0-18 with incomes up to 211% of FPL; pregnant women with incomes up to 209% of FPL; parents with incomes up to 133% of FPL; non-elderly adults with household incomes up to 133% of FPL; certain elderly and disabled individuals."

If TLC takes them above the Medicaid thresholds, though, they could still get relatively affordable coverage under the Affordable Care Act, if they chose to accept it, since I can't imagine that they're making very much from the network, with Anna being only a bit player. But who knows what Duggars will do? Here are some of the costs in Arkansas for lower-income people:

"88 percent of Arkansas consumers who were signed up qualified for an average tax credit of $280 per month through the Marketplace.

58 percent of Arkansas Marketplace enrollees obtained coverage for $100 or less after any applicable tax credits in 2015, and 85 percent had the option of doing so."

http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/facts-and-features/state-by-state/how-aca-is-working-for-arkansas/index.html

[kokapetl]

But TLC just love the Duggars, especially when they reproduce. And surely anyone with half a brain would have their health insurance included in their contract, rather than buy it themselves. 

[lookeyloo]

Would the Duggars even apply for a federal/state program?  Wouldn't they find that intrusive where they would have to share financial information with the evil government?  I know it worked out for snowflake Josie but it seems like they knew the costs were beyond them and Scamaritin but in general?  When the home births work out Just Fine?  Eventually.

[Arwen Evenstar]

12 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

A shit ton, other than Scamaritan, where in both instances, they could pay only $400/mo. BUT you have to play by their rules, and they are strict as hell. 

http://samaritanministries.org/costs/monthly/

Guidelines. Relevant rules stuff starts on p.14:

http://samaritanministries.org/how-it-works/guidelines/

WHAT in the ever loving fuck is that?  So if you're divorced or a widow with no kids, you're on your own? Sounds like if you're really sick, you're screwed. It's basically worse than any other insurance, but I could see how the grift angle might appeal to the Duggars and their ilk.  Their convoluted idea of responsibility....and they get other people not really with much capacity to help their own families pay your bill??? 

WHO makes this shit up? We've got to be very careful who we choose as our elected leaders if this is going to be more commonplace. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

Nope, Smuggs wouldn't qualify ...not sure if that would disqualify Anna...I guess she's covered if she gets a divorce, but only because she has kids. Supposing he Dave her the clap, since she was blameless would they pay for her treatment, but not his? 

To the CDC, STDs are a public health concern. They won't quibble about who is at fault...boggles the mind....

[DangerousMinds]

44 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

Would the Duggars even apply for a federal/state program?  Wouldn't they find that intrusive where they would have to share financial information with the evil government?  I know it worked out for snowflake Josie but it seems like they knew the costs were beyond them and Scamaritin but in general?  When the home births work out Just Fine?  Eventually.

You only have to share financial information if you want to see if you qualify for a subsidy. Otherwise, you can just pay full price for whichever plan you prefer.

[Sew Sumi]

3 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

WHAT in the ever loving fuck is that?  So if you're divorced or a widow with no kids, you're on your own? Sounds like if you're really sick, you're screwed. It's basically worse than any other insurance, but I could see how the grift angle might appeal to the Duggars and their ilk.  Their convoluted idea of responsibility....and they get other people not really with much capacity to help their own families pay your bill??? 

WHO makes this shit up? We've got to be very careful who we choose as our elected leaders if this is going to be more commonplace. 

I know, right? That's why I noted the rules were strict as hell above. The Maxwells are all members.

[OpieTaylor]

5 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

do we know that Josh isn't working at all?

Isn't he supposedly selling used cars parked on a piece of Duggar land? KJB is probably employing him under some Duggar Enterprises umbrella, along with Bin.  Oh, and there's the house flipping too - Smugs may be working on those (if they even exist).

Edited July 30, 2016 by OpieTaylor

[BitterApple]

I hope anyone interested in buying a Duggar-renovated property hires one hell of a home inspector first.

[Absolom]

I'm in the no severance package camp.  Josh was either fired for cause or let to resign gracefully.  There was zero reason for FRC to give him a dime after that.  I don't think they would have experienced any blow back from their followers on the insurance issue either.  It was ALL Josh's fault after all.  Severance packages are usually used in situations where there is a staff reduction or someone needs a little nudge to exist sooner than expected.  They are much less common than it seems people tend to believe that they are. 

Jim Bob talked about in the past where they had regular insurance.  He bragged about having a family plan that covered them no matter how many children they had.  It seemed to be a standard BCBS plan where once you pass two family members in addition to self you're covered for however many.  My insurance is the same. 

[kokapetl]

Josh was never actually charged or arrested, so I suspect there was nothing he was obliged to disclose. 

Then again, I have no idea how the minds and hiring practices of the FRC works. 

They could've had Chachi!

Edited July 30, 2016 by Kokapetl

[Churchhoney]

22 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I'm in the no severance package camp.  Josh was either fired for cause or let to resign gracefully.  There was zero reason for FRC to give him a dime after that.  I don't think they would have experienced any blow back from their followers on the insurance issue either. 

Oh, of course they wouldn't get blowback from their followers.

But I'm talking about their many very determined critics and enemies, who are always on the lookout for family-values-related hypocrisy coming out of FRC. There's no way they wouldn't have gotten major blowback from those critics, who are many and determined because they view FRC as a potent political enemy that they must take down. 

Such a story would have blown up in the press, at least in the Washington political press -- which matters a lot to FRC  -- for some of the same reasons the Josh story did -- because it would have been a flashpoint political story that also was an entertainment story, a people story and a story of big-time hypocrisy from a major political player.

They would definitely spend some thousands on an extension of insurance coverage to forestall that. And they didn't need to consider it pay to Josh. They would have considered it as both a means to cover FRC's ass and avoid bad press -- a massive consideration in DC -- and a way to help a young pregnant mother and her kids who weren't at fault in the matter. In my opinion, there's no way they'd be so silly and pinchpenny as to cut off that insurance when a simple and really quite cheap six- to eight-month extension of it would buy them protection from eagle-eyed liberal groups and the press jumping up and down on their ass for risking a childbirth healthcare tragedy that they might have prevented.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Micks Picks]

My insurance was the same.  One price for an individual and a huge jump for 2 and however many more you had.  Pissed me off.  Only remedy was to get my own insurance for self only and leave husband's plan.

[Vaysh]

I admit that my knowledge of US medical insurance is extremely sketchy and I find it somewhat confusing but I thought that Obamacare would sort of mean that everyone would have affordable insurance for medical needs. Like it would be impossible to refuse having coverage? Wouldn't Anna have had access to decent medical care through Obamacare even if the FRC cut off their work-related insurance plan?

[Sew Sumi]

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that a Duggar would avail themselves to the open exchange. They would get Anna covered under Scamaritan before doing anything associated with the ebil Democraps (tm Rush Limpballs).

[Micks Picks]

It's a good deal if you keep your income off the records, work for pay not declared.  Then it is cheap or free.  Others would rather pay the fine than $300 a month with a $6000 deductible.  

[Vaysh]

If I believed in a god I'd thank it for universal health care every single day of my life...

[kassygreene]

The Affordable Care Act means that now insurance is available at comparatively affordable rates (compared to the individual rates that you could "get" before).  My rate went down last year, but I have the minimal plan ($485) with an annual $6250 deduction.  I am also sixty damn years old.  

If you have insurance you get lots of things at a group rate instead of the extra gouging that individuals get.  It's usually a difference of 40% - 50% in cost.  You also have an easier time being examined in ER, being admitted to a hospital, and getting take on by a new medical practice.  And I am sixty damn years old, so there are lots of tests and things.

The ACA also means that certain categories of pre-existing conditions (like a fully functioning female reproductive system) cannot be used to deny me coverage.  My lady parts are also sixty damn years old.

People who want to pay that small fine can gamble as they wish, but not having insurance in this country will still screw you when you need it.

 

As to the Smuggars, while I'm sure they would have been able to get COBRA, as I remember the premiums were about twice what my employer-subsidized premiums were.  And you have to write a check and get it in on time every month.  With a baby on the way it would have been absurd not to do it, but they like absurd chances.

Edited July 31, 2016 by kassygreene
Decided to add an on-topic paragraph.

[Barb23]

I worked for an OB/Gyn group but not in the billing dept.  IIRC pregnancy office visits & the labor & delivery charges were billed to the insurance company as a lump sum early in the pregnancy &  paid for by ins company by the 7th or  8th month.  If the mom changed insurance companies during the pregnancy, charges were prorated back to the original ins co & then partial charges  were billed to new ins co. I don't know how it worked if mom lost old ins but had no new ins (being a self pay patient) as was Anna's case.  I guess she would be responsible for prorated charge like new ins co would be.  The labor & delivery charges were for the doctor.  There would be separate additional charges from the hospital.

I could be wrong but think this how it worked.  I'm in Maryland.  

[Sew Sumi]

If the Smuggars did lose their insurance, I am wont to believe that they gambled with Anna's pregnancy. After all, she'd had three successful homebirths already, etc. Yes, I am giving them no credit for brains or sense. 

Anyone wanna take the bet that they have actually vaccinated their kids? That's easy money for me! :D

[BitterApple]

Changing directions for a moment, I wonder how the TLC crew is going to film around Smuggar at Jinger's wedding. Assuming the family sticks close together that might be somewhat of a challenge. I'm split pretty evenly on whether or not they work him back into the storyline. I don't know how many more of Anna's Sad Clownface TH's they can do before they're forced to address the elephant in the room.

Edited July 31, 2016 by BitterApple
clarity

[bigskygirl]

Keep the conversation on Josh, Anna and the kids and not the ACA aka Obamacare/health care in general please. Posts going off topic will be hidden at the discretion of the mods. Thank you.

[Sew Sumi]

28 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Changing directions for a moment, I wonder how the TLC crew is going to film around Smuggar at Jinger's wedding. Assuming the family sticks close together that might be somewhat of a challenge. I'm split pretty evenly on whether or not they work him back into the storyline. I don't know how many more of Anna's Sad Clownface TH's they can do before they're forced to address the elephant in the room.

I've heard that TLC has said that Smuggar will NOT appear in the upcoming season. But that doesn't include the wedding, which will likely be shown as a VSE over the holidays. I speculated that in different circumstances, Jeremy and Smuggar would have been best buddies, being the same age and all, shoving Ben aside. As it stands now, I don't think Smuggar has a relationship with either of his current brothers-in-law and Jeremy likely cuts a wide swath around him. I mean, dude molested your now-fiance! Sure, the girls "forgave" him, but did they really have a choice? I also wonder how the brothers REALLY feel about him. JD seemed pretty disappointed and let down in his THs during JJ:CO. But Boob is pretty much forcing Smuggar to work alongside his brothers. Talk about awkward. 

[kassygreene]

I think all TLC has to do is tell him to get out of a shot.  If that fails, they can tell JB to tell him to get out of the shot.  They are the ones writing the checks, and they should have control of the shoots; they definitely have control of the editing.  The Duggars do not own these shows, they just make money off them.

[JoanArc]

I kind of love how these famewhores are painted into a corner: they lose if they show Josh or if they don't show Josh. Good.

Now if I see his parent's I'll throw a brick through my TV. I think there will be a backlash of them appearing.

[Barb23]

They shouldn't have trouble keeping Smugs out of filming.  Thinking back & having rewatched Jill's wedding recently, he was barely in that even tho he was the Master of Ceremonies. He was basically just another guest at Jessa's.  I think being in a large family helps TLC, there are plenty of other folk to dwell on for story lines.