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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

maraleia

By maraleia
in Counting On

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Minivanessa

Minivanessa

12 hours ago, Namaste said:

What does a hung jury actually mean?  Can they retry him for the same crimes? TIA

It means that the jury, after deliberations, can't agree unanimously on a verdict. Usually there's some back and forth communications between the judge and jury, with the jury reporting we seem to be deadlocked and the judge encouraging them to keep deliberating. There's appellate case law on what's an appropriate instruction for the court to give a jury that reports being deadlocked. The judge is not supposed to give an instruction to the jury that is coercive, i.e., pushes jurors to surrender their "conscientious opinions" (go against their conscience) in order to reach agreement on a verdict. 

If the jury reports back that they are still deadlocked after further deliberations, at some point the judge will accept that they can't reach a unanimous decision on the verdict, and declare a mistrial.

That means the case can be tried again.

By the way, during its deliberations and dialogue with the judge, the jury never discloses how their votes are leaning. For all the judge knows, they could be 11 to 1 for guilty, 8 to 4 for not guilty, etc. After a mistrial is declared because of a hung jury, the prosecution and defense will (after court adjourns) ask the jurors about how the votes went. They are allowed to ask, but also each juror has the right to not speak to them if they don't want to. 

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hoosier80
hoosier80

New show title: 10 to 20 Years and Counting 

MargeGunderson
MargeGunderson

Someone on Reddit just described Josh’s face as a glistening glazed ham. I am considering divorcing my husband and marrying that poster. 

doodlebug
doodlebug

Well, for many of us, it's the difference between 'imperfect' and 'non-PC' and being a criminal.  Josh is a child molester and his parents actively intervened in his situation to avoid him being punis

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JustRosie

JustRosie

8 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

It means that the jury, after deliberations, can't agree unanimously on a verdict. Usually there's some back and forth communications between the judge and jury, with the jury reporting we seem to be deadlocked and the judge encouraging them to keep deliberating. There's appellate case law on what's an appropriate instruction for the court to give a jury that reports being deadlocked. The judge is not supposed to give an instruction to the jury that is coercive, i.e., pushes jurors to surrender their "conscientious opinions" (go against their conscience) in order to reach agreement on a verdict. 

If the jury reports back that they are still deadlocked after further deliberations, at some point the judge will accept that they can't reach a unanimous decision on the verdict, and declare a mistrial.

That means the case can be tried again.

By the way, during its deliberations and dialogue with the judge, the jury never discloses how their votes are leaning. For all the judge knows, they could be 11 to 1 for guilty, 8 to 4 for not guilty, etc. After a mistrial is declared because of a hung jury, the prosecution and defense will (after court adjourns) ask the jurors about how the votes went. They are allowed to ask, but also each juror has the right to not speak to them if they don't want to. 

Thank you!

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libgirl2

libgirl2

2 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I’m a bit behind but since we are waiting I thought I’d ask. 

For some reason I thought those interested in porn would either be into adult porn OR child porn. 

Was Josh into both?

I think he is tends to go with the CP. Maybe he tried AP to see if that would work. It didn't. I also think he gets off on domination and violence. 

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Ijustwantsomechips

Ijustwantsomechips

On 12/7/2021 at 10:08 PM, mittsigirl said:

That's huge for a mobile home! They won't be cheap, that's for sure! I will have to take a peek at their interiors, very interesting to go so big.

I could see the Smuggars in one of those. They are nice inside.  Plenty of bedrooms, a fireplace, and I saw one with a master closet that looked like a bedroom it was so large. Once inside, they look like any other house. 
 
Their best bet will probably be to put something comparable or site build on the family homestead. 

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

8 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I’m a bit behind but since we are waiting I thought I’d ask. 

For some reason I thought those interested in porn would either be into adult porn OR child porn. 

Was Josh into both?

I don't think Josh is into anything in particular. I think his need for deviant sexual experiences has escalated over the years.

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Jeanne222

Jeanne222

15 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

Agreed. But they might be hung up on that one question. Why set up a partition, do all of that for three days and then not access the partition until June. No activity again on the partion side of the computer. Only activity was in October on his MacBook looking at adult porn.  I wonder if the calendar request was to see what three days - was there a trigger - idk something like mothers day?

This is what I was reading that gave me pause and asked the question if those into pornography stuck with one or the other. 
 

 

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Tuxcat

Tuxcat

From the Sun: Josh and Anna Duggar arrived hand-in-hand at the courthouse within the last few minutes, according to the Sun reporter at the trial on Thursday.They were accompanied by Josh's legal team.

Why are they there today? I thought they'd wait in a nearby office until a verdict was ready to be announced?

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MargeGunderson

MargeGunderson

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1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't think Josh is into anything in particular. I think his need for deviant sexual experiences has escalated over the years.

That’s an interesting thought! After having his parents drill into his head that sex was a magical thing only to be experienced by two married heterosexuals, I wonder if he was somewhat underwhelmed by the experience. Plus, his first memories of sexual behavior are tied up with doing something “illicit,” exercising control over his victims, and the fear of getting caught. So now he seeks out more extreme behavior and experiences because that’s what he really responds to.

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absnow54

absnow54

4 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Why are they there today? I thought they'd wait in a nearby office until a verdict was ready to be announced?

Maybe they don't have an office nearby? Or they're expecting the verdict early today? When did the jury reconvene? It's only 8:30 there.

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Jeanne222

Jeanne222

I think Josh is just a very bad person that has no boundaries and has been enabled by his father.  

Josh is a man that should have had intense counseling since the scandal with his sisters was revealed.  

All that Jesus stuff was surely not working!

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RedDelicious

RedDelicious

30 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

And on the menu for Josh tonight.

1200x

 

I actually think this looks delicious, but then again I love cafeteria and airplane food 😆 

This is way too good for Josh! But I'm sure he considers anything not served on a Styrofoam plate haute cuisine.

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Jeanne222

Jeanne222

1 minute ago, absnow54 said:

Maybe they don't have an office nearby? Or they're expecting the verdict early today? When did the jury reconvene? It's only 8:30 there.

I read somewhere the jury was to return at 8:30 am. So here we are!

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quarks

quarks

1 minute ago, absnow54 said:

Maybe they don't have an office nearby? Or they're expecting the verdict early today? When did the jury reconvene? It's only 8:30 there.

My guess is that the office isn't close, and given the notoriety, hanging out at a nearby Starbucks or something isn't a great alternative.

My other guess is that if we do get a verdict today, it will either come by around 10 AM CST, or mid/late afternoon. If they need to go until 11 or 11:30 they might as well get a free lunch out of the deal, especially since it will take some time to get everyone back in the courtroom to get the verdict read, even with Josh and his attorneys in a not very big courthouse. 

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

8 minutes ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

It won’t be that scrumptious. He’ll get the lunch loaf which is all the prison foods mixed and ground together. 

7 minutes ago, SMama said:

Except Volderjosh will be eating with a spork during his stay at Club Fed.

That's a picture of an actual prison meal.

 

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
38 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I’m a bit behind but since we are waiting I thought I’d ask. 

For some reason I thought those interested in porn would either be into adult porn OR child porn. 

Was Josh into both?

As far as I've read, there's very little real understanding of the complications of sexual feelings, period. Clearly it's possible for some people to feel aroused by both men and women, for example. And often people are aroused not so much by a particular kind of person as by some kind of event -- like domination (in either direction) or violence or being seen by others in a sexual act (etc etc etc). It seems that rape tends to be motivated not by any kind of sexual attraction but by anger or just pleasure in using force against somebody. Some people seem to get aroused by just doing any sexual thing that's off limits or that's disgusting. Some people may only feel sexual arousal when they also feel romantic feelings toward a person or a kind of person. But for other people romantic feelings may even kill sexual arousal. It's way more complicated than would be convenient.

Josh has obviously been aroused by interfering with children or seeing children harmed and interfered with.  But he was also apparently aroused by knocking around that woman from the sex-entertainment industry that he paid for an encounter back in his DC days. She wasn't young looking or dressed like a schoolgirl or anything. So that wasn't a pretend-child encounter. It was him being aroused by something going on with an adult.

It's not clear that all someone's sexual motivations can be known, even by them. 

But when it comes to things that are crimes, it ultimately doesn't matter what your motivations are, of course. Some things have to be deemed criminal because of their effects on other people (or animals). 

 

 

Edited by Churchhoney
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hathorlive

hathorlive

28 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

I gotta work today I mean like REALLY TRULY prep for my OWN hearings.   So we better get a verdict quick. 

I hear ya! I have an actual, real deposition tomorrow. I have things I HAVE to do.  And yet here I am, reading the forum obsessively.

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MargeGunderson

MargeGunderson

Between following along here and on Reddit, I am not getting anything done today. I only have a half hour meeting on the calendar, and I’m not going to lie, I have contemplated canceling it. I did find time to go to Target to stock up on snacks and celebratory (or consolation) chocolates. 

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RedDelicious

RedDelicious

2 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Between following along here and on Reddit, I am not getting anything done today. I only have a half hour meeting on the calendar, and I’m not going to lie, I have contemplated canceling it. I did find time to go to Target to stock up on snacks and celebratory (or consolation) chocolates. 

What's the climate like on Reddit? I only read/participate here. Is it all over the place and hard to read or relatively orderly? 

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quarks

quarks

5 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

What's the climate like on Reddit? I only read/participate here. Is it all over the place and hard to read or relatively orderly? 

It's a mix - some useful posts, some wildly speculative posts, and a number of memes which I'm just scrolling past. 

It's mostly hard to read because of the sheer speed of main posts and comments. I have no idea how the moderators there are handling it. 

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Ohiopirate02

Ohiopirate02

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6 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

What's the climate like on Reddit? I only read/participate here. Is it all over the place and hard to read or relatively orderly? 

It's all over the place.  The mods attempt to clean it up, but the sheer number of posters makes it difficult.  There are some hilarious memes.  I prefer it over here because we are a bit more orderly, and the no politics policy here is nice.  

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MargeGunderson

MargeGunderson

(edited)
13 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

What's the climate like on Reddit? I only read/participate here. Is it all over the place and hard to read or relatively orderly? 

It moves even faster than this thread, and there are a lot of very short comments. Also a lot of jokes, most of which are funny (many of them are a take off of “mother is bleeding” from one of Jessa’s birthing episodes). It’s a good complement to this thread, I think. We have a lot more back and forth conversation here.

ETA - there is a local reporter in the courtroom who is posting there; see the thread “Good morning from Fayetteville.”

Edited by MargeGunderson
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Minivanessa

Minivanessa

(edited)

IIRC when a jury is deliberating and is returning to the court for the next day's deliberation, the judge will assemble everyone in the courtroom for a brief on-the-record proceeding to establish that all jury members are present and will retire to the jury room to continue deliberations. The prosecution, defense lawyers, and defendant will be present for that. Where they go after the judge dismisses them is up to them as long as the court can contact them in case of a verdict or a jury question. 

ETA: that was my experience in our state courts and I'd think the federal courts would do the same.

Edited by Jeeves
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ozziemom

ozziemom

And some Reddit posts are inside jokes for long time followers so it can get confusing. But the Mother is …… take off on the Meeechelle Mother is bleeding is hilarious. Any sign of Meechelle? Are they saving her for the sentencing?

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3girlsforus

3girlsforus

10 hours ago, hathorlive said:

Agreed.  It's okay to have questions.  I respect a jury that says "we want to review this".  We have to trust the system. I know there have been major disappointments with OJ and Casey but those were different trials.  The evidence is overwhelming in this case.  JB paid for a defense and he got one.  It will be interesting to see if this case can be appealed, because St. Louis lawyer pulled every freaking rabbit out of the hat he was given.  He did so many motions that I'm surprised he didn't get in trouble with the judge.  

I agree. Questions are understandable and we have to trust it doesn't mean the result will be wrong. With the overwhelming evidence the only thing I worry about with this trial is that there is a lot of technical stuff.  I always worry in trials with a lot of technical information. It can be boring, confusing, and overwhelming. And frankly a lot of people watch TV and assume it's as easy to mess with and hack technical stuff in real life as on TV so they can give credence to absurd arguments that play into that pre-conceived notion. 

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merylinkid

merylinkid

12 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

IIRC when a jury is deliberating and is returning to the court for the next day's deliberation, the judge will assemble everyone in the courtroom for a brief on-the-record proceeding to establish that all jury members are present and will retire to the jury room to continue deliberations. The prosecution, defense lawyers, and defendant will be present for that. Where they go after the judge dismisses them is up to them as long as the court can contact them in case of a verdict or a jury question. 

ETA: that was my experience in our state courts and I'd think the federal courts would do the same.

but JB is there.    I seriously wonder if the jury signalled in some way they were close to a verdict and the judge let everyone know to be there in the morning.  Because sure Josh has to stick close and Anna is glued to his side.   But JB wouldn't be there just to hang around for hours waiting just in case.   

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SnapHappy

SnapHappy

(edited)

Just remember: for every Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson, there's a Scott Peterson and Jeffrey Dahmer.  

And I actually like her brown shoes.  They definitely don't go with the dress, but it's hard to find closed toe & closed heel shoes with a tiny bit of style. 

Edited by SnapHappy
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