Jessa, Ben and Their Brood: Making a (Diaper) Mountain out of a Mold House

[floridamom]

Ok, folks. Bin just stepped on a land mine there...It shows us ALL, no matter what faith or creed we posters here belong to, that the Duggars are full of crap. From Jim Bob, Michelle on down....Michelle is quick to use phrases like "for us", "our lifestyle isn't for everyone", etc. and to indicate that they respect others' rights to believe and practice those beliefs as they see fit, is pure baloney. They see their way as the ONLY way. They are on TV advertising this fact. To insult and call out any particular group of wrong IMO. When Ben agreed to "court" Jessa, or whatever he is doing with her, he also has agreed to be somewhat of a public figure. I happen to have been raised Roman Catholic, and I know that that faith DOES respect all interpretations of scripture. Catholics believe that since the catechism has been taught to them, they are responsible for those beliefs and traditions, but if others have been raised and educated in another faith, they, too, are called to live out those teachings to the best of their ability also, are just as accountable to the Almighty as anyone would be. Those Catholics who believe that their way is the only way, are extreme, old fashioned believing people, who even the pope today believes that there are many roads to heaven. I'm sorry that Bin has made his ignorance and immaturity public. Fellow posters, I don't think that the "catholic' way is the only way and I represent a large majority of Catholics out there. I can say for a fact, that absolutely every part of the mass is scripture based. There is nothing that is included in our worship service mass that is not found in scripture. Last I checked, I didn't find "side hugs", skirt wearing only females, stay at home, no education females in scripture. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Bin.

[mbutterfly]

I also believe Ben's words should be worrisome to the Duggar franchise. They campaigned for Rick Santorum citing what to my eyes looked like common faith-based values. And, as mentioned above, part of their public persona is that they do not judge others. While I'm certain in their cultural tradition Catholicism has been taught as being "non-Christian," that is not the public face they have wanted for the Duggar brand. At least that is how I've seen it.. 

[PecanSandie]

I went to a Roman Catholic wedding last night and at the end the bride and groom went to kneel and pray before the statue of Mary and give an offering of flowers to the statue. I could see 100% full on how something like that is objected to by a Christian bible believer like Ben.

[mythoughtis]

Ben is immature.  Is anyone surprised about that?  He's been raised in the same way as the Duggars, but without the years of TV exposure, speaking engagements, hero worship, etc.  Josh has been raised in that environment, and isn't any more politically correct.   The Duggar girls have been TV savvy enough to be a little more polite in their self-righteousness.  Ben strikes me as a person that believes what he's been raised to believe, right up until it doesn't work for him personally.  He hasn't had a life crisis challenge him yet (the 'no atheists in foxholes' situation). Many of us start out that way, and our 20's and 30's knock some of that self-righteousness and smugness right out of us.   What I can't figure out is how Jim Bob and Michelle got to the age they were when the show started with that self-righteousness intact. 

[LazyToaster]

I think they will find out rather quickly that they can't control Ben. He's young and sure of himself and isn't going to stop and ask - is this a good idea - before posting on social media. Once it is out there, it will be very hard to control.

[fixxin2]

Keep it up Binnie boy. Pride goeth before a fall and you're digging a big hole to land in.

[BradandJanet]

A close relative of mine joined up with a Christian fundamentalist group and immediately started passing out the anti-Catholic pamphlets to his very Catholic relatives. That didn't go over very well. The argument is in doctrine, but I think it's just as likely that the sheer numbers of Catholics and their general agreement on their beliefs and practices is threatening to the evangelicals who seem much more disparate. I strongly suspect the Duggars have been taught that Catholic aren't real Christians (or worse), but most of them know not to say so in public now that they are TV "stars." Then comes Bin, who didn't get the memo. Ha, ha.

[MrMattyMatt]

Is there a link to Bin's rant?

[Fostersmom]

It's on his Facebook page. Which, you'd think he's lock that shit down. https://www.facebook.com/benL4CSeewald

 

This is going to be good. I mean, I dislike the Catholic Church and their official teachings as much as I dislike the ATI, or other fundie religions, but one shouldn't throw bricks when one lives in a glass house...

 

My first roommate in college was crazy Christian, as I deemed her. Like invited Campus Crusade for Christ to our room (they had to be personally escorted to and from the room by her since the college wouldn't let them enter dorms unattended anymore even in 1995), who about had a stroke when I told them that not only was I atheist, but my grandma had converted to LDS and technically my mom and uncle were still LDS. They nicely informed me my grandma was in hell and that's where my mom would end up. Lovely. She and her crazy religious friends would sit around praying about the dumbest crap and spewing all sorts of religion at people. She once made a very questionable comment about a friend who lived in the dorm. He was mixed race and walked past us one day.

Her : "I wonder where Ben is from?" 

Me: "i think he's from Michigan."

Her: "no, I mean originally"

Me: blank shocked stare

 

After one of her crazy "prayer" meetings she came back to the room all excited. Like giddy. Of course I asked what was up. H: "Vince became a Christian tonight!" M: "Vince is Catholic, he was already Christian". H:" That's not really Christian." All I could think was how much I hated this girl and couldn't wait for the year to end. 

 

Sadly, I think Ben Seewald is even more dangerous than JimBob and Michelle. He's young and brazen and full of his own bravado. He obviously doesn't know how to pick and audience. 

[bigskygirl]

I think Jessa is smug and too full of her self, but I could be scared if my daughter came home with a boy like Ben. He has a right to speak his mind, but he frightens me.

Edited July 19, 2014 by bigskygirl

[PinkSprinkles]

Since the Catholic Church believes and teaches that much of what other religions is wrong and that no one goes to heaven unless they are in the Roman Catholic Church, what wrong with Ben stating his biblical beliefs?

 

The problem comes when you start to denigrate and condescend other's beliefs, especially when the religion your putting down has the same fundamental beliefs you do. You can disagree all you want with any religion, but there's no reason to be rude and ignorant about it. 

[MrMattyMatt]

Thank you Fostersmom.  I was raised Catholic and am now non-denominational Christian.  His posting is just pretty ignorant.  What's worse is that it came about from his "mission-vacation" in Central America.  Since when do you go on one of these "missions" and criticize their beliefs??  What a juvenile moron.

[bigskygirl]

What a young man courting a Duggar girl condescending, rude and ignorant? I am shock, truly shock!!!  He fits in well with Jessa, JimBoob, Mullet, and Mr. and Mrs. Smugs. All peas in the pod.

[PinkSprinkles]

The family needs to have a Very Duggar Intervention with Bin. 

[bigskygirl]

He needs to have someone who has work with people who needed to be de-program after leaving a cult. Does he really believe what his own spiel or is he just quoting what he has been taught over the years?

[lottiedottie]

He needs to have someone who has work with people who needed to be de-program after leaving a cult. Does he really believe what his own spiel or is he just quoting what he has been taught over the years?

I would venture to guess that he believes it because that's what he has been taught over the years.

[floridamom]

IMO, what Ben hasn't been taught are manners, respect and tact.

Is this group of missionaries going over to a predominately Catholic country to convert them to Gothardism, or to help them with basic humanitarian assistance regardless of their faith? Methinks that Jessa is trying to convert some little girl with a bottle of nail polish and face paint.

Also, regarding the couple at the wedding kneeling and offering the image of the Virgin Mary flowers, it is an old custom to bring Mary flowers. She is in NO WAY adored or worshipped. That is reserved ONLY for the Blessed Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (God). Mary was a human being held in high regard by the Almighty and chosen for that very special mission to be the vehicle in which Jesus was born to this world. She is intercessory; she also has the ear of Jesus, and is invoked to be our spiritual prayer partner when we are seeking answers or guidance from God. She joins US in bringing our issue to Jesus who brings it to the Almighty God. This church was established in the year 33AD at Pentecost and it is the church/faith that all other Christian faiths grew from including Bin/Ben's own set of spiritual beliefs. He should show some respect to his spiritual roots IMO, but I'm sure that's how the whole "kit-n-caboodle" feels about other faiths including wooooonderful JimBob and Michelle.

BTW, I am a catholic and I don't believe in being spiritual superior towards any other faith. I am glad that all posters read and post their views and as a catholic woman in this country, I wish all of you a blessed, happy and healthy life. I don't think any one of you are "going south" after this life for your spiritual beliefs. We all need to be good people and citizens towards each other and live peacefully. Thanks guys...I'll stop now.

[BradandJanet]

If the Duggars or Ben or whoever object to Mary or the Pope as an intercessory between the individual and God, they should re-examine Gothard, Phillips, and the like. 

[mbutterfly]

When I read the comments on Ben's facebook, I'm struck by people who say things like "He's just telling the truth." Do they believe that the Holy Spirit has given Ben some sort of truth that 1.2 billion Catholics cannot discern? And why would anyone believe this teenager from Arkansas has these power? Let me add, I'm saying this as a fellow Protestant who is always aware I have much to learn. 

[starfire]

Ben has deleted a lot of the negative comments. There are still some there, but I know mine was deleted. LOL

[PecanSandie]

I am a ok with Ben posting about the differences he has seen first hand and stating what Catholics believe and comparing that to what the Bible says.

This is probably his first trip to a third world country and seeing Mary venerated as having supernatural intercessory powers was probably extremely shocking to him.

I had a friend who went to Rome and he saw many images of Mary on a cross as a co-redemptress with Jesus Christ and he cried for days over this, because to a Christian, that is a huge violation.

Knowing that Ben will stand up for what he believes about Jesus makes me respect him way more than Jim Bob. It seems like now that Jim Bob gets paid for it and gets attention from people like Rick Santorium, he just goes along to get paid.

Now I'm seeing Ben as a worthy partner to the outspoken Jessica.

[DangerousMinds]

A close relative of mine joined up with a Christian fundamentalist group and immediately started passing out the anti-Catholic pamphlets to his very Catholic relatives. That didn't go over very well. The argument is in doctrine, but I think it's just as likely that the sheer numbers of Catholics and their general agreement on their beliefs and practices is threatening to the evangelicals who seem much more disparate. I strongly suspect the Duggars have been taught that Catholic aren't real Christians (or worse), but most of them know not to say so in public now that they are TV "stars." Then comes Bin, who didn't get the memo. Ha, ha.

Didn't they (and Bin) support Rick Santorum, a devout Catholic, in his bid for the White House?

 

What are the odds that Bin will take any Religion courses in college? For me, I know I was raised Catholic and took classes in Eastern religions, etc in college and that opened my eyes to all the different belief systems in the world. But I was always one to wonder - how can someone know their own religion is "best" if they don't have full information about all of the others?  Muslims also believe that their "god" is the only one and some can be fanatical about their beliefs. Simply because they were raised that way. But I doubt Bin has any of these thoughts. He seems very set in his ways for someone so young.

Edited July 20, 2014 by DangerousMinds

[BradandJanet]

Knowing that Ben will stand up for what he believes about Jesus makes me respect him way more than Jim Bob. It seems like now that Jim Bob gets paid for it and gets attention from people like Rick Santorium, he just goes along to get paid.

 

Sometimes evangelicals and Catholics join in public on such issues as abortion and gay marriage. It's an alliance of convenience. Otherwise, they don't agree in principle and the alliance doesn't hold. I think JimBoob and crew do that. It's two-faced in my opinion, but they don't agree with me and that's fine. They don't rock my world either.

[jcbrown]

 

But I doubt Bin has any of these thoughts. He seems very set in his ways for someone so young.

I don't think Bin has any thoughts. He has been taught that critical thinking and questioning anything is evil, plus he is 18 (an age prone to absolute certainty in my experience) and, being male, he is at the top of the totem pole in the worldview in which he was raised. 

And--even though I'm an atheist--I find it offensive to enclose god in quotes when talking about Muslims.

[mbutterfly]

I had a friend who went to Rome and he saw many images of Mary on a cross as a co-redemptress with Jesus Christ and he cried for days over this, because to a Christian, that is a huge violation.

 

I think it would be more accurate to say that to some Christians this seems a violation because it isn't consistent with their own denominational teachings. At least that is my perspective. I don't want to be argumentative but this view isn't universal among Christians. 

[PecanSandie]

If we are going by the biblical and historic definition of Christianity I believe it's fair and correct to say that there is not a co-redemptress. Ben, who does confess biblical Christianity, would see any attempts to elevate any other human being to the level of Jesus as a heresy.

[Micks Picks]

I was raised and educated Catholic, by Jesuits.  This is the first time I've heard the concept of Mary being a co-redemptress.  The term is totally unfamiliar to me.  I have been to Rome, as well as most other European cities many times, and have never seen this Mary portrayed as being on the cross.  We were taught systems of logic and reason, and not so much the bible, especially the old testament that was before the Savior arrived.  Catholics are Christians, in fact, the original Christians.

[WTFFF]

It wouldn't shock me to learn that things like nuance and symbolism are completely over Ben's head and he takes everything he sees and hears at literal face value.

[DangerousMinds]

I don't think Bin has any thoughts. He has been taught that critical thinking and questioning anything is evil, plus he is 18 (an age prone to absolute certainty in my experience) and, being male, he is at the top of the totem pole in the worldview in which he was raised. 

And--even though I'm an atheist--I find it offensive to enclose god in quotes when talking about Muslims.

Sorry jc, I meant no offense and I always enclose the word god in quotes, regardless of whom I'm referring to.

[jcbrown]

Thanks, DangerousMinds, and sorry I read you wrong. I thought you were singling out Muslims. Carry on.

[PecanSandie]

I was raised and educated Catholic, by Jesuits.  This is the first time I've heard the concept of Mary being a co-redemptress.  The term is totally unfamiliar to me.  I have been to Rome, as well as most other European cities many times, and have never seen this Mary portrayed as being on the cross.  We were taught systems of logic and reason, and not so much the bible, especially the old testament that was before the Savior arrived.  Catholics are Christians, in fact, the original Christians.

If I may argue from what I believe to be Ben's point of view as a Biblical christian, he and others of the Biblical persuasions would consider the disciples and believers at Antioch to be the original Christians based on what the Holy Scripture says in Acts 11:19-28.

From what I can gather from reading Ben's Facebook and Twitter he would consider the Bible to be the authority rather than Catholic traditions. (Acts 17:11, Mark 7:8, Col. 2:8.)

Regarding Mary as coredemptrix (sorry I spelled that I wrong earlier) but it's my understanding that it's quite common for her to be elevated to this position in Catholocism. If memory serves Pope John Paul ll was very firm on this tradition.

My friend saw the Mary on the cross with Jesus at Santa Maria Maggiore, Rome. I believe that is more common in foreign countries than in the US.

Personally I think everyone has the right to believe what they want and disagree with what they want. It is part of what makes the world beautiful to me.

I think it took courage for Ben to voice his convictions but I bet it made Jim Bob's blood pressure go up. He's worked hard to cultivate a brand that doesn't talk about what it doesn't agree with because there is a lot more money and public adulation in pretending. So Ben really left the Duggar reservation on this one.

[floridamom]

I wish I knew how to post on Ben's facebook directly, but I don't. I wish other Catholics knew that we don't confess anything to saints, we don't adore, worship or elevate them beyond being humans who have lead an exemplary life. We look to them for inspiration ( sorry Duggars, it's not you) as they have triumphed in their faith in God during testing times.. Mary is NOT a co-redemptrix.....the ONLY redeemer was and is Jesus Christ. that's it. Also, Catholics are certainly free to and are encouraged to go directly to God Himself, through Jesus, His Son, if they wish to. In fact, that is the preferred method. Once again, saints, etc., are spiritual prayer partners. And please note, young Mr. Seewald, every time Jim Bob Duggar or YOU say " please hold hands and join me in prayer", you are invoking the same prayer partners that Catholics do; only physical ones, here on earth. How is that a violation that Jesus is the Savior? None at all. I have had it with you and do gooders such as yourself. I, myself, see no conflict in attending a Protestant church and their services, which I have been doing for a few years now, and I find it to be very refreshing and there is a lot that is the same in their service. If I am open minded, respectful, and appreciative of other Christian faiths, and the good that they teach and preach, why aren't you?

[mbutterfly]

There is a Pentecostal Manifesto that I found on the internet.  It was very, very long so I didn't read all of it.  The anti-Catholic part of the manifesto shocked me in its nastiness.  Wow, and baby Bin quotes scripture or Gotthard's teachings without giving them any thought, or realizing that most people have a brain and don't look to ONLY his view as how to live your life.

The sad fact appears to be that Ben's beliefs are not particularly Bible-based. He has been taught and is accepting a set of tenets devised by humans. Nothing against Ben for that. He's very like a large number of teenagers. The unfortunate part may be the adults around him are not prepared to teach him to study with diligence before making proclamations. 

[abseedee]

Ben's  words were deragatory (sp?).  My beliefs are right and yours are a "deadly error".  Everyone has a right to their belief but attacking others will only bring discord and anger as he has done.

 

ETA:  He has deleted the picture of the Statue of the Virgin Mary and all comments that followed..

[PecanSandie]

I think Ben truly cares about what he considers to be souls in danger of eternal damnation. If you weigh it all out, Ben is of higher character than Jim Bob because Ben spoke the truth to what he believes the Bible says. Jim Bob however, while he believes the same as Ben, the people they both consider lost souls aren't worth speaking up for in Jim Bob's world. He'd rather have the dollar than present the Gospel.

[PinkSprinkles]

I agree that the Gospel is to be shared, but there are ways to do that that won't raise the ire of an entire sect of Christianity. Focusing on the positive aspects of your message as well as theirs is a way to not only share your message, but also show that you respect the person with which you are engaging. I think Ben would have met with a more receptive audience if he had pointed out how grateful he was to have the opportunity to serve the people of Central America and had talked about what he had learned from them. Somehow, he turned what could have been a very enlightening and uplifting trip, into a discord about Catholics and their belief system. 

[JessDVD]

There are times and places to discuss the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism and which of the differences actually matter in an eternal perspective, and none of them are on your public Facebook page that you only have because you're sort of dating a member of a family on a reality TV show. Your chances of alienating people and getting into fights are far greater than your chances of actually impacting anyone in what might be a positive way, in an eternal perspective.

 

I shudder to think what I might have said on a public Facebook page when I was 19 and knew everything, but I hope that if I were 19 and had a public Facebook page and some relative level of fame, I might have a publicist or at least run what I post past someone smarter than me. I get the impression that Ben is letting his so-called fame go to his head and fancies himself as a (young, but still) pillar of Christianity with the power to affect the masses.

[starfire]

I think it's not just what he said, but the way he said it.  Him saying he "has a problem" with this or that belief is not going to bring anyone with those beliefs around to his way of believing. His condescending and superior way of getting his point across will just alienate people and push them away, not make them want to listen to what he has to say.   And apparently all the Catholic stuff came up on the mission trip, where he was allegedly going to serve, not to lecture/insult.

 

I agree that now that Ben has a Facebook following (because of the show) he has let it go to his head. Apparently he is not as strong in his beliefs as he claims to be, as I just noticed he deleted the post. What a punk.

[JessDVD]

Just think, in 10-15 years, he'll probably look back at this and think "God, I was an insufferable punk". 

 

Maybe, you know, not in those words exactly.

 

I do semi-hope in that I don't really care for him but have a sense of human decency sort of way, that if/when the TLC gravy train comes in to the station (which surely it will eventually), all this Facebook stuff doesn't come back to haunt him.

[RazzleberryPie]

Ben's an ignorant fool. 3/4 of my family is Catholic, and I've been to Rome a few times and several cities in Italy (family scattered throughout), and I have NEVER seen a crucifix with Mary being crucified. Maybe a decorative cross with the Madonna holding the infant Christ, but NEVER as her being a redemptress.

 

I've been to or in about a million Catholic weddings, and many did have the couple honor Mary with flowers, but as a tradition of recognizing her as the model of perfect womanhood/wifehood/motherhood and implying that the couples want to exemplify her devotion to God during their marriage and childrearing.

 

I've also been on a few mission trips to rural Mexico (I know this isn't where Ben and Jessa went, but it is Latin America) with my Methodist relatives. We built and maintained a school. We aren't as fundie or zealous as Benessa, but those types did similar trips. When you have an annoying, condescending, over eager missionary, the most common answer was "We're Catholic," simply to get the zealots to go away. Most people in Latin America are traditionally Catholic, whether or not they were baptized, confirmed, attend mass, or basically do anything besides claim the title. That's not to say there aren't devout Catholics in Latin America, just as there are tons of people who identify as Baptists or Methodists or whatever in the US who never go to church.

 

If Ben had an ounce of maturity or any real desire to actually learn about whatever he's ranting on for the moment, he wouldn't make such ignorant and intolerant claims. It's perfectly OK to express your opinion, but when you spout falsehoods with no desire to learn facts, you're a pompous idiot.

[jcbrown]

 

when you spout falsehoods with no desire to learn facts, you're a pompous idiot.

Perfect for the Duggar clan. He'll fit right in.

[RazzleberryPie]

Oh, and I see from Ben's facebook that modest Jessa has discovered eyebrow stencils and gold nail polish. She's the epitome of flashy and vain. I guess the skip those verses about beauty coming from the inside and not outward adornments.

[PecanSandie]

Just to clarify Ben didn't say he saw a cross with Mary on it, what he posted was a statue of Mary with children kneeling before her. As a Christian, any human being bring worshipped or prayed to would feel like a violation and heresy to Ben.

My friend is the one who told me about seeing Mary on the cross in Rome. He sent me the photo so I've actually seen a photo of that whereas he saw it in person.

[maraleia]

Jessa and Ben make me sick. The photos of them and the other Duggars in Central America proselytize in the very countries where kids are fleeing the violence to get to the US is everything that is wrong with fundamentalist religious people of all stripes. They aren't doing any real work to help these folks and that is a crime against humanity. I do not feel sorry for Jessa anymore and I feel bad that Jinger is forced to hang out with her due to birth order.

[Mullet]

Interesting to read the commentary on this. As for the picture of Mary on the cross, since most Catholics here, myself included have never heard of that and have never seen it, I wonder why it is being continually revisited. I get it. You saw a picture. Also Mr Ben took down the posts so I guess the TLC fairies paid him a visit and he rethought his stance.

[DangerousMinds]

Just think, in 10-15 years, he'll probably look back at this and think "God, I was an insufferable punk". 

 

Maybe, you know, not in those words exactly.

 

I do semi-hope in that I don't really care for him but have a sense of human decency sort of way, that if/when the TLC gravy train comes in to the station (which surely it will eventually), all this Facebook stuff doesn't come back to haunt him.

I can't imagine any future potential employers who may check out his FB page will appreciate his public rants.

[MrMattyMatt]

The fact that the posting has been deleted burns me even more.  If you can't defend yourself then keep your mouth shut on these topics.

[RedBaron]

Ben's an ignorant fool. 3/4 of my family is Catholic, and I've been to Rome a few times and several cities in Italy (family scattered throughout), and I have NEVER seen a crucifix with Mary being crucified. Maybe a decorative cross with the Madonna holding the infant Christ, but NEVER as her being a redemptress.

 

 

 

Agreed.  (I was raised Catholic and had years of Sunday school.  Now, I am more of an agnostic because I don't believe one religion is the "right" one.)   I have never ever seen Mary on a crucifix and I have been to Rome and the Vatican many times.  Nor was I ever taught that Mary was a co-redemtrix and have never even heard that theory before.

 

The problem I have with Ben is he is ignorant and, even worse, obstinate in his ignorance.  He is disseminating false propaganda in order to support his own misguided beliefs.   People just told him that wrong info and he just went with it because it puts down others and appears to make him feel superior. 

 

If he deleted the post because he had an epiphany that he was being an intolerant ass who didn't know what he was talking about, then I will give him some credit.  My guess, however, is that he deleted it because he's just an inarticulate coward.

 

I was kind of  hoping Jessa would see the light before marrying him because it doesn't seem like a good match but now, as I learn more about both of them, I hope they are stuck with each other for all of eternity. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by RedBaron

[PecanSandie]

Interesting to read the commentary on this. As for the picture of Mary on the cross, since most Catholics here, myself included have never heard of that and have never seen it, I wonder why it is being continually revisited. I get it. You saw a picture. Also Mr Ben took down the posts so I guess the TLC fairies paid him a visit and he rethought his stance.

When the photo of Mary on the cross was brought up it, was to illustrate how a Christian feels violated when anyone beside Jesus Christ is worshiped, prayed to or venerated. Someone then mentioned it in regards to Ben and I wanted to clarify that Ben's photos was not the picture of Mary being portrayed as co-redemptrix, but his picture was a statue of children in a kneeling position before Mary. 

 

If you'd like to see the photo of Mary on the cross with Jesus I believe a Google search will turn up several. The one my friend saw was in Rome. 

 

All that having been said to present the viewpoint of how a Christian like Ben would feel upon seeing things like this. 

[RedBaron]

Except any Christian like Ben who bases his prejudices on a picture despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary is just being ignorant and looking for any little thing to support their intolerance.    I think it's ridiculous.   I think the point is that he makes himself look extremely bad when he jumps to false conclusions and then tries to spout that off as Catholic doctrine.

Edited July 21, 2014 by RedBaron