The White Princess - General Discussion

[Enero]

17 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Err how did you see it? Mine doesn't air until 8 PM EST. 

I subscribe to the STARZ via Apple. They release new episodes of their shows on the app at midnight on the day the new show airs. 

[MrsE]

20 minutes ago, GoddessofFolly said:

I've been enjoying the White Princess and I like the actors, but does anyone know why there was a complete cast overhaul.  The new actors are fine and there are a few I prefer, but I really miss the actress that originally played Margaret Beaufort.  No offense to Caitlyn Stark.

Amanda Hale didn't want to do it apparently.

[BooBear]

56 minutes ago, Enero said:

I subscribe to the STARZ via Apple. They release new episodes of their shows on the app at midnight on the day the new show airs. 

Oh I actually found it on xfinity on demand. Well I agree it was a bit of a let down and slow one after the pilot. But I suppose that is to be expected. I am annoyed at the IMHO uncalled for "Plot" where Margret Buford is supposedly now in love with her brother. Margret never seemed very loving in general but it seems to be shoe horned in the for lurid sake. 

I don't blame the actor playing Henry but I blame the writing. Henry seems to be a fool. First manipulated by his wife, second listening to mom too much, and frustrated that the people don't love him. Of course they don't.   It really shows that they had zero plan with Henry other than winning the crown.  For Henry to win me he has to start acting like a king... not a foolish boy. 

Finally I think I am going to have a real problem with Elizabeth Woodville's 180 turn around. She has control in her daughter. She was never a "yorkist" she started out a Lancaster.  She never wanted anything but for her family to be safe.  Her family includes Elizabeth and her son. Her acts were foolish and got Teddy imprisoned. Nice work! 

Henry has completely softened as to Lizzy. Basically begging her to be co-king with him. Elizabeth has softened too.  I hope she sees that her mother's actions are not really helping anyone. 

[legxleg]

2 hours ago, BooBear said:

 I am annoyed at the IMHO uncalled for "Plot" where Margret Buford is supposedly now in love with her brother. Margret never seemed very loving in general but it seems to be shoe horned in the for lurid sake. 

 

I think Uncle Jasper is Margaret's brother-in-law, not her actual brother. She was in love with him all through the White Queen, but hasn't acted particularly in love in the White Princess so far (IMO anyway). 

[BooBear]

5 minutes ago, legxleg said:

I think Uncle Jasper is Margaret's brother-in-law, not her actual brother. She was in love with him all through the White Queen, but hasn't acted particularly in love in the White Princess so far (IMO anyway). 

Oh ok thanks. That helps.  But still this plot imho comes out of nowhere even within the story as it is Henry that first brings it up. I got to say I watched the white queen and that went right over my head. Did I just miss it?

Edited April 23, 2017 by BooBear

[WatchrTina]

I binged the White Queen yesterday and I definitely got the impression that Margaret loved Jasper. Didn't she basically invite him to marry her after her "nice" (York-supporting) husband died?  Jasper declined and so she arranged for a love-less, sex-less marriage of convenience with someone who could facilitate her return to court, from whence she could secretly promote her son's agenda.  So that meaningful look she gave Jasper in the 1st episode of The White Princess (and her husband's interrupting-but-not-really-jealous reaction) made perfect sense to me. 

[Pogojoco]

If Henry and Elizabeth want to team up, exile their useless mothers and snark at each other while ruling England, I'm pretty much here for it. 

[CindyBee]

I guess I have low expectations but I thought episode 2 was good and didn't find that it dragged all that much.   Helps that I like both actors in the lead--Henry and Lizzie so looking forward to next week and the arrival of Aunt Burgundy.

[GoddessofFolly]

Quote

Amanda Hale didn't want to do it apparently.

Aw, that's too bad.  She's the one I really miss.

[BooBear]

9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I binged the White Queen yesterday and I definitely got the impression that Margaret loved Jasper. Didn't she basically invite him to marry her after her "nice" (York-supporting) husband died?  Jasper declined and so she arranged for a love-less, sex-less marriage of convenience with someone who could facilitate her return to court, from whence she could secretly promote her son's agenda.  So that meaningful look she gave Jasper in the 1st episode of The White Princess (and her husband's interrupting-but-not-really-jealous reaction) made perfect sense to me. 

Ok then, I clearly missed something. Weird because I watched the entire series on Stars more than once but perhaps I missed the same things more than once. 

[Scarlett45]

13 hours ago, legxleg said:

I think Uncle Jasper is Margaret's brother-in-law, not her actual brother. She was in love with him all through the White Queen, but hasn't acted particularly in love in the White Princess so far (IMO anyway). 

Yes Margaret always had deep affections for Jasper Tudor (Henry's paternal uncle that raised him in exile). On that note I thought Henry was being a huge dick. His mother has worked tirelessly to put him on the throne, he doesn't have to agree with everything she does but so long as her actions with Jasper aren't causing a scandal (thus far she's been nothing but appropriate) why fuck up her tiny bit of joy?!!! Being near him makes her happy and he sent him away out of spite. 

Im not upset about the 2nd episode. So much of the pilot is character/world building. They have dropped the bomb with Cecily. She could've been so complex and now they are making her a jealous shrew. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 4/23/2017 at 8:17 AM, Enero said:

Maybe I missed a scene but I'm confused as to why Cecily is so against Lizzie and her mother that she's willing to side with the enemy (Margaret) against them? What is her agenda? Because right now it just seems like her actions are there moreso to serve the plot than any organic character development.

I didn't watch The White Queen so maybe someone who watched that will have more insight, but in the previous episode it was established that Cecily is jealous of Lizzie. She made more than one comment in the season premiere that made it seem obvious that her jealousy is not a new thing either. I think that's a large part of her motivation in siding with Margaret, but I also think that she was telling the truth when she told Lizzie that if she had to choose one side of her family, she'd rather choose the side that she's afraid of (rather than her cousin Warrick). Cecily is not stupid either. She can clearly see that Margaret dislikes Lizzie and that until the end of this episode, Henry didn't particularly like Lizzie either. That is an opportunity for Cecily to suck up to the king and his mother and lay the groundwork to get some power for herself, whether that means hoping she will be chosen as his next queen if he exiles/imprisons/kills Lizzie, gets some say in who she marries, or stays at court in a trusted position.

Edited April 24, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Haleth]

I can't stand Cecily acting like such a brat either.

Margaret was still married to Stafford, no?  I didn't see any flirtation with Jasper but I could understand Henry wanting to avoid any whispers.  (And of course, sending him to Burgundy was spiteful.)  Margaret was surely fond of Jasper, he was a father figure to Henry and was unwaveringly loyal to his and Margaret's cause.  I can't imagine pious Margaret causing a scandal though.

While Lizzie's heart was in the right place regarding giving money to the sick (loved her confrontation with the chancellor), it was a bad idea to send Teddy to dole out the coins.  What was she thinking?

Edited April 24, 2017 by Haleth

[IntrovertRed]

There were a few instances when second husband Stafford caught Margaret in loving embraces with Jasper, and didn't they also kiss at one point too in The White Queen? So their flirtation and feelings are nothing new, although it's definitely less obvious in this series. I also keep thinking the new Jasper is actually her husband because he has a beard and her husband does not. 

I can understand why Henry is frustrated with his mother, she purposely withheld important information which made him look stupid when the sickness was mentioned and he had no knowledge of it.    

[CindyBee]

Agree that the writers of the series are doing a poor job with Cecily, one of the more memorable York girls.  I'm going to spoiler tag the rest of my thoughts on Cecily's character development or lack of as not sure if it will covered in the series or not:
 

Spoiler

 

Cecily was being kept around by Henry and his mother for the chance to be the next Queen if Elizabeth did not survive the birth of Arthur.   She knows this, and can see her being reluctant to she her sister any loyalty as the power of being Queen is indeed intense but I wish the writers would expand on those feelings more than having Cecily running around being a tattletale. 

Once Arthur was born and they both survive, that's when Henry rewards Cecily for her loyalty and marries her off to his uncle from his mother side of the family, John Welles.  

 

[nodorothyparker]

18 hours ago, BooBear said:

I don't blame the actor playing Henry but I blame the writing. Henry seems to be a fool. First manipulated by his wife, second listening to mom too much, and frustrated that the people don't love him. Of course they don't.   It really shows that they had zero plan with Henry other than winning the crown.  For Henry to win me he has to start acting like a king... not a foolish boy. 

Part of the problem for Henry was that he had basically lived in exile in France for more than half his life, from around 14 to when he finally won the crown at 28.  He didn't really know England very well or how to conduct himself to rule as king there.  So he did need the guidance of Margaret, who had lived there her entire life scheming through one court or another, as well as Elizabeth as daughter of a former king.   With the number of plots and rebellions he faced, he had a hard time knowing who to trust.

It also didn't help, as the show mentioned, that he invaded with a largely foreign-born army that would be blamed for spreading the fatal sweating sickness that periodically popped up for years afterward and certainly wouldn't inspire much love from the common people.

[NYCNJbear06]

I can accept that the author (Gregory) and the screenwriters have taken creative liberties in the telling of this story but I am having a more difficult a time with the creative liberties on the creative liberties.

Cecily York - Nothing in any of the books, that I can recall, paints Cecily to be as jealous of her sister that they are depicting and to act “against” the family.  Her actions and friendliness to Margaret B seem out of place.

Duchess Cecily – The 180 degree turnaround from the woman who loathed Elizabeth Dowager Queen to somehow become the loving grandmother is odd.  This is the woman who hated Elizabeth DQ to the point that she considered naming herself a whore and her son Edward IV a bastard and subsequently his children to discount their claim to the throne for her other son Richard III.  I can’t imagine Lizzie looking lovingly upon her. 

The Prince(s) in the Tower – They are too cavalier in their definitive stand that the York’s knew that one of the princes “survived” and to speak plainly and openly as Cecily did doesn’t make sense. 

I do find the depiction of Margaret of York’s portrayal interesting.  I think the actress is doing a good job showing the emotion of the insecurity that Margaret would have been going through – deemed the daughter of a traitor, titles and lands gone, protective of her brother knowing he has a target on his back and knowing that her safety and security is totally tied up with her cousin Lizzie.  The actress even looks like a younger version of the actress who played Margaret Countess of Salisbury (who Margaret of York grew up to be) from the Tudors.

[nodorothyparker]

The York women do seem awfully cavalier about the show version of events that they secreted one of the princes away and that he may still be alive somewhere.  Accepting it as it's depicted, they still honestly have no idea where he is or what happened to him.  The scene where a near hysterical Margaret of York is told and then "Ssssh, it's a Big Secret" was almost comical when they're not exactly living freely in the castle of people who would gleefully hunt down and murder that prince if they had even a whisper of anything to go on.

[Scarlett45]

22 minutes ago, NYCNJbear06 said:

I can accept that the author (Gregory) and the screenwriters have taken creative liberties in the telling of this story but I am having a more difficult a time with the creative liberties on the creative liberties.

Cecily York - Nothing in any of the books, that I can recall, paints Cecily to be as jealous of her sister that they are depicting and to act “against” the family.  Her actions and friendliness to Margaret B seem out of place.

Duchess Cecily – The 180 degree turnaround from the woman who loathed Elizabeth Dowager Queen to somehow become the loving grandmother is odd.  This is the woman who hated Elizabeth DQ to the point that she considered naming herself a whore and her son Edward IV a bastard and subsequently his children to discount their claim to the throne for her other son Richard III.  I can’t imagine Lizzie looking lovingly upon her. 

The Prince(s) in the Tower – They are too cavalier in their definitive stand that the York’s knew that one of the princes “survived” and to speak plainly and openly as Cecily did doesn’t make sense. 

I do find the depiction of Margaret of York’s portrayal interesting.  I think the actress is doing a good job showing the emotion of the insecurity that Margaret would have been going through – deemed the daughter of a traitor, titles and lands gone, protective of her brother knowing he has a target on his back and knowing that her safety and security is totally tied up with her cousin Lizzie.  The actress even looks like a younger version of the actress who played Margaret Countess of Salisbury (who Margaret of York grew up to be) from the Tudors.

Duchess Cecily's behavior doesn't surprise me so much. Many a woman has HATED her daughter in law (or son in law) and loved their grandchild 20yrs after the fact. Especially with Edward being dead, his sons dead/lost, her sons dead, her grandchildren are all she has left in England. Old age also mellows people. 

The actress playing Margaret has been doing a great job with few lines. At the end "I pray he's a boy"- so simple but filled with so much depth. 

[NYCNJbear06]

Yes, Scarlett, I know what you mean by that.  I guess my point was that in the books and in the White Queen, Duchess Cecily's hatred extended to the York children as when the princes were in play it was primarily them, and de facto Lizzie and the girls, that she was intent on bastardizing for Richard.  It would make sense that she would have a fondness for Margaret and Teddy as they were her favorite son's children.  I may be overthinking it LOL I tend to do that.  

Spoiler

Historically speaking its interesting that they have Cecily going to her daughters court in Burgundy where in all of the historical non-fiction that I have read Cecily actually retired from court life and joined an abbey as did Elizabeth W much later. 

More importantly :-) I know this is a limited run and I am curious as to how far they will go with Lizzie's story.  There is so much story to tell leading up to her death and Henry VIII story line to pick up that I can't imagine covering 1/2 of that in this series. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by SilverStormm
Spoiler tag added.

[nodorothyparker]

It probably helps that all three of her sons are dead by this point, the two princes are believed dead, and Dowager Queen Elizabeth has been effectively defanged.  She also isn't in any real position of power anymore.  If her line survives at all and manages to stay anywhere near the throne, her hope rests on the grandchildren who are in that room.

[blackwing]

I don't have Starz so I'm going to have to catch this on DVD, but I'm enjoying reading the comments.  Generally I am not a fan of Philippa Gregory... I particularly dislike her continued insistence at calling it "The Cousins' War".  I know that she says that this is the accurate historical reference, but let's face it, there are very few people who call it that as compared to "The Wars of the Roses".

[shockermolar]

Because I'm replying to an [historical] spoiler with a potential [historical] spoiler....

Spoiler

Quote

Henry rewards Cecily for her loyalty and marries her off to his uncle from his mother side of the family, John Welles.  

I've gotten somewhat curious about how they intend (or IF they intend) to show this, as John Welles was pretty much definitely killed by York forces in The White Queen when Margaret Beaufort talks him into fighting against them.

[MichelleAK]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I don't have Starz so I'm going to have to catch this on DVD, but I'm enjoying reading the comments.  Generally I am not a fan of Philippa Gregory... I particularly dislike her continued insistence at calling it "The Cousins' War".  I know that she says that this is the accurate historical reference, but let's face it, there are very few people who call it that as compared to "The Wars of the Roses".

I guess in this one matter, she wants to use the correct terminology for the time. (The "Wars of the Roses" wasn't coined until the 19th century, IIRC.) However, considering all of the other ahistorical stuff, I'm not sure why she bothered.

[Glade]

5 hours ago, NYCNJbear06 said:

Duchess Cecily – The 180 degree turnaround from the woman who loathed Elizabeth Dowager Queen to somehow become the loving grandmother is odd.  This is the woman who hated Elizabeth DQ to the point that she considered naming herself a whore and her son Edward IV a bastard and subsequently his children to discount their claim to the throne for her other son Richard III.  I can’t imagine Lizzie looking lovingly upon her. 

This was very strange in the second episode--she spent most of the white queen practically spitting at the Woodvilles, it's inexplicable that now she would be the kind, sympathetic grandmother or that Lizzie would honestly ask to see her.  If we're supposed to believe she's had a total change of heart, we should have heard that in the lines or the performance.  A little bit of gravity or veiled reference to the past would have been sufficient. 

Overall, I did find the second episode to drag a great deal.  I guess they aren't going to portray very much of Henry VII's/Elizabeth of York's reign if the pace is this slow.   

[Moxie Cat]

9 hours ago, NYCNJbear06 said:

The actress even looks like a younger version of the actress who played Margaret Countess of Salisbury (who Margaret of York grew up to be) from the Tudors.

Oh my goodness, I am blanking on who this was. Was this season 1 Tudors? What might I remember about her?

[brisbydog]

Margaret was a caregiver to Princess Mary and ended up in the tower as an old lady and was beheaded with no trial. This was during marriage number 5 to Catherine Howard 

[WatchrTina]

16 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I thought Henry was being a huge dick. His mother has worked tirelessly to put him on the throne, he doesn't have to agree with everything she does but so long as her actions with Jasper aren't causing a scandal (thus far she's been nothing but appropriate) why fuck up her tiny bit of joy?!!! Being near him makes her happy and he sent him away out of spite. 

 

15 hours ago, KLJ said:

I can understand why Henry is frustrated with his mother, she purposely withheld important information which made him look stupid when the sickness was mentioned and he had no knowledge of it.    

Like KLJ, I think Henry is mostly upset with his mother for withholding important information (like the sickness in the land) and giving him bad advice (like suggesting they offer up Elizabeth the Dowager Queen as a bride for the king of Scotland) and making important decisions without consulting him (like locking up Elizabeth instead of taking her on the tour as planned) and giving him more bad advice (punish Lizzie for giving money to the people for medicine!)  His spotting her having lingering talks with Jasper, complete with tender hand-holding, gave him the means to punish her (by sending Jasper away for a while) but I don't think he was all that fussed about their behavior.  If Margaret hadn't pissed him off repeatedly I doubt if he would have cared a whit about her attentions to Jasper.

[Pogojoco]

I also think this episode was almost entirely about Lizzie and Henry becoming adults who make their own decisions (even mistakes) rather than puppets or pawns of their mothers. There was a lot of hustling on the part of Jasper Tudor and Margaret to get Henry on the throne. They lived out their ambitions through him.

Henry more or less had to be harsh to make sure she understood that he is actually the king. 

Lizzie, too, it's all about restoring the House of York, "this baby is not your baby, it's a York baby." "You will do this so we can get power again." etc. 

Lizzie also told her mother off about ordering the hit on the king, when previously she was all about the York cause. The gist was basically, "That's not how I do things." She also asserted herself over giving money to the poor on behalf of the King. 

I think the general direction of the show will be how these two become their own people and give birth to this delightful tyrant. 

 

 

[iMonrey]

I think I'm warming up to Henry VII a bit. He's still no Edward IV (Max Irons > Jacob Collins-Levy) but if he could just tell his mother to sod off I could get behind him. And I'm glad to see Lizzie starting to play the game and stand up to her own mother as well. Someone just needs to kill Margaret Beufort and Cecily and I'll be OK.

Quote

I don't blame the actor playing Henry but I blame the writing. Henry seems to be a fool. First manipulated by his wife, second listening to mom too much, and frustrated that the people don't love him. Of course they don't.   It really shows that they had zero plan with Henry other than winning the crown.  For Henry to win me he has to start acting like a king... not a foolish boy. 

This is mostly due to the fact that the story is being told from the women's perspective rather than the men's. So the women all come off looking like the power brokers while the men all look like manipulated puppets. Pretty standard fare for "women's stories." 

[Haleth]

Never doubt the resolve of mothers when it comes to their sons. ?

[Moxie Cat]

22 hours ago, brisbydog said:

Margaret was a caregiver to Princess Mary and ended up in the tower as an old lady and was beheaded with no trial. This was during marriage number 5 to Catherine Howard 

Ah, thank you. I've seen the Anne Boleyn seasons much more. But Ovation is currently into season 4 on Saturday nights so I'll try to catch Margaret this time around. That's such a fascinating bookend to the young girl who's currently in this show! 

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

He's still no Edward IV (Max Irons > Jacob Collins-Levy) but if he could just tell his mother to sod off I could get behind him. And I'm glad to see Lizzie starting to play the game and stand up to her own mother as well.

Yes, during the last scene with Henry and Lizzie, when he said they could work together, I was thinking, if you both stood up to your mothers and made an alliance of your own, this would get much more interesting! (Plus Henry would be way more likable.)

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is mostly due to the fact that the story is being told from the women's perspective rather than the men's. So the women all come off looking like the power brokers while the men all look like manipulated puppets. Pretty standard fare for "women's stories." 

I don't know... the White Queen was a woman story and I found all the male leads to be strong and relatively Kingly (even George). Henry so far is just a weak, ignorant, putz who whines all the time and seems easily manipulated. I can't see what Lizzy would ever see in him. I hope to see more of Henry making decisions for himself and making smart ones.  It isn't so much for me that he isn't standing up to his mom but he just seems to have no plan for what he wants to do and resents his mom and everyone else for making suggestions that do not make every thing great with a snap of the fingers. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Henry:

[iMonrey]

It's ironic that Michelle Fairley a.k.a Catelyn Stark is now playing the Circie Lannister role.  

[Pogojoco]

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It's ironic that Michelle Fairley a.k.a Catelyn Stark is now playing the Circie Lannister role.  

I actually think there is a lot of Catelyn Stark in this character, too. She spent a hell of a lot of time bossing Robb around and trying to direct things through him. Also gets frustrated when her boy doesn't listen. Both characters are rigid in their beliefs and stubborn as all heck, too. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E3 promo:

[Constantinople]

I've decide not to worry about the historical inaccuracies and flights of fancy of The White Princess.

After all, I never found Cromwell's portrayal in Wolf Hall particularly credible.

[BooBear]

So I watched Burgundy and I liked it the best so far. Henry came off more sympathetic. What Lizzy and he are bonding over I thought was a good avenue to bring them together.  I like the Duchess of Burgundy but hope that her position reflected at the end was one of grief and she will change her mind in the future.  

[nodorothyparker]

I liked this episode better than the previous two as well.  I can actually buy Henry and Lizzie finding common ground in realizing they've always been pawns of their mothers and respective claims, and Henry's answer that he won the throne because that's what he was raised to do and didn't know what else he would have done instead rings true.

The Burgundy court was fun to look at and seems to have been put together by a much better designer than whoever is responsible for the faux fairy tale mess that is whatever they're doing at the Tudor court.  Margaret of Burgundy and Jasper Tudor had really nice chemistry together and they were doing some nice work meditating on what the war had cost them, the number of dead Yorks vs. the life Jasper never got around to having while he was busy protecting Henry and advancing his interests.  Unfortunately as she had to be reminded, you just can't take the Tudors anywhere without tragedy ensuing.

[bunnyblue]

I'm liking the thawing in the Lizzie/Henry relationship. I thought it was sweet when she climbed into his bed and they just held each other. I also really enjoyed the scene where they admitted that they've always been pawns in their mothers' ambitions. They looked so tired and over it all.

Honestly, I don't know how all of these people aren't exhausted after decades of war and death; especially Elizabeth Woodville. She's lost husbands, parents, siblings, sons, been imprisoned/sought sanctuary countless times, and yet she continues plotting against the Tudors. I feel bad for her 3 youngest daughters who are shuffled from one tiny room to another with little freedom because their mother refuses to stop scheming. Margaret Plantagenet had the right idea when she said she just wanted to take Teddy and go live quietly in a small house away from it all.

I still can't stand Margaret Beaufort, the mother-in-law from hell. Keeping Elizabeth from Lizzie while she gave birth? Deciding when and where Arthur would be christened? Now that's she's queen, Lizzie needs to take away most of Margaret's power in court. I'm actually surprised that White Princess Lizzie hasn't displayed much of a backbone like White Queen Lizzie did. Maybe that will come in later episodes. 

[BooBear]

30 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Honestly, I don't know how all of these people aren't exhausted after decades of war and death; especially Elizabeth Woodville. She's lost husbands, parents, siblings, sons, been imprisoned/sought sanctuary countless times, and yet she continues plotting against the Tudors. I feel bad for her 3 youngest daughters who are shuffled from one tiny room to another with little freedom because their mother refuses to stop scheming. Margaret Plantagenet had the right idea when she said she just wanted to take Teddy and go live quietly in a small house away from it all.

One of the biggest annoyances to me is that Elizabeth Woodville is not acting like the White Queen character.  She seems to have little concern for her family here and more concern for making war, in part, against her own daughter and grandson, when it was her who insisted that Lizzy marry Henry to end the war.  The only justification I can see for it is perhaps in this series we see everything through Lizzy's eyes while white queen was via Elizabeth's eyes.  I am going to grow tired of her scheming soon.

I did like that she went to Henry just to cuddle. Yeh, I think he has her. The "shared" we have no choice... came out in the "rape" scene and I think that got her to go along with it because she knew they both had zero choice.  I think here it really dawned on her that for better or worse... she is in it with Henry now.  If she wants her son to live she needs to "lean" in to the Tutors going forward.

One question and perhaps it is the times.. but I can see him having to guard Teddy because someone might take him and make him a pawn but why does Teddy have to be in the tower and why can't he live with Margret? But just have them sent someplace no one knows about guarded by Henry's men? 

[CindyBee]

Since I've developed selective memory and have stopped worrying about historical falsehoods, I'm starting to really enjoy the series.    Thought tonight's episode had a good pace and interesting character developments.  Like I care about Lizzie and Henry as people.  And Pretty good acting too from the leads, especially Aunt Burgundy, Uncle Jasper and the girl playing Maggie.   

And we got our answer how they would solve the problem of John Welles "dying" in the White Queen but still needing to marry Cecily in the White Princess:   He just miraculously came back to life.    At least that historical fact was kept true, as Cecily was married off by Henry and his mother to keep her away from anyone with ambitions to marry a York princess.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I liked this episode better than the previous two as well.  I can actually buy Henry and Lizzie finding common ground in realizing they've always been pawns of their mothers and respective claims, and Henry's answer that he won the throne because that's what he was raised to do and didn't know what else he would have done instead rings true.

The Burgundy court was fun to look at and seems to have been put together by a much better designer than whoever is responsible for the faux fairy tale mess that is whatever they're doing at the Tudor court.  Margaret of Burgundy and Jasper Tudor had really nice chemistry together and they were doing some nice work meditating on what the war had cost them, the number of dead Yorks vs. the life Jasper never got around to having while he was busy protecting Henry and advancing his interests.  Unfortunately as she had to be reminded, you just can't take the Tudors anywhere without tragedy ensuing.

I agree with all of this. I found it kind of hilarious that for all of the tension between Henry and Lizzie, what they finally bond over is realizing that they are both just doing what their mothers want. I laughed a little when Henry said he wondered what he might have chosen if not for being who he is, only because if he had been born a commoner, he probably wouldn't have had much choice either. If his father had been a craftsman, he most likely would have been trained in the same craft. If his parents were poorer than that, they probably would have tried to find someone to apprentice with at a very early age. Either way, he wouldn't have had a whole lot of choice.

The Burgundy court was beautiful and full of light and flowers, as opposed to the more dour and dank looking Tudor court.

Heh, even when the Tudors don't actually kill anyone, death and mayhem follow anyway.

Loved when Henry told his mother he was going to talk to Lizzie about something and she said incredulously, "You're going to consult with YOUR WIFE?" and he said he was going to consult with someone who knew about ruling these people (or something similar).

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The Burgundy court was beautiful and full of light and flowers, as opposed to the more dour and dank looking Tudor court.

And wine.

I'm hoping Henry will start to stand up to his mother.  She is really getting on my nerves.  And I can't wait for Cecily to be married and sent off to start her own life ASAP.

[absnow54]

I dropped my Starz subscription a while ago, but this past week my cable company was doing a binge-athon and this became available. I liked The White Queen well enough, although the compressing the three books into one series made it hard to follow without some previous research. I've liked The White Princess a lot more, perhaps because the story has been consolidated, and all the major players are in one place. I'm also really intrigued by the dynamic between Henry and Lizzie, especially in this last episode where they both realized they've been manipulated by their mothers their whole lives and are starting to have their own opinions on matters. This will make a decent "slightly more historically accurate Game of Thrones" to make it through the rest of the hiatus.

[CindyBee]

Quote

One of the biggest annoyances to me is that Elizabeth Woodville is not acting like the White Queen character.  She seems to have little concern for her family here and more concern for making war, in part, against her own daughter and grandson, when it was her who insisted that Lizzy marry Henry to end the war.  The only justification I can see for it is perhaps in this series we see everything through Lizzy's eyes while white queen was via Elizabeth's eyes.  I am going to grow tired of her scheming soon.

I'm trying to remember all that has happened to Elizabeth Woodville in the White Queen to have some sympathy but right now she's my least favorite character:

1.  First husband killed fighting against the Yorks then "falling in love" with the York king Edward

2. Earl of Warwick getting pissed at her so he kills her father and one of her brothers

3. Car Park Richard going a bit crazy and killing her brother Anthony and son Richard Grey

4. Car Park Richard then killing her son in the tower (or was it Margaret Beaufort?)

That's an awful lot of heartache but still, she's really annoying this time around.  

Edited May 1, 2017 by CindyBee

[NYCNJbear06]

One thing that stood out to me was when the Duchess of Burgundy mentioned how she has had 4 significant deaths through all of this, her father and 3 brothers.  She actually had 4 brothers who died in all of this so I am surprised at this mistake.  Her father and brother, Edmund of York, were the first to be killed followed by Edward’s reign and death, and George and Richard’s death.   I wonder if she was not counting Edward since he didn’t die in war or a battle for the crown like the others – Papa York, Edmund, George and Richard, maybe those were the 4 she was counting.  

Also, I think I need to adopt the “blind eye to accurate portrayal of historical facts”  because the Duchess of Burgundy’s step daughter’s death from horseback  actually did not happen during Henry’s reign but actually a couple of years before during Edward’s reign but I guess it was creative license to reinforce Elizabeth DQ’s “magical” powers. 

Another interesting fact that is shown in the historical context is that Cecily and Margaret Beaufort  had a friendship that was sustained over time.  Margaret was not only influential in getting her a husband but there are also records that show her giving Cecily money and support over the years.  I think their relationship is a subtle nod to that. 

Lil Margaret of York kills it in every scene she is a good actress.  I can feel the pain she feels for Teddy and just wanting to get away from it all.  

[MV713]

Is there not enough following of The White Princess to have its own category?

I am having a very hard time with this.  I was so taken with the White Queen, and the cast/characters, that this just seems "off".  Everyone' personality has changed with the recasting and not in a good way. 

Did I miss something in the first series that explained who the Dutchess of Burgandy is?  Also the connection to Dowager Queen Elizabeth W?  I feel lost.

[CindyBee]

Quote

Did I miss something in the first series that explained who the Dutchess of Burgandy is?  Also the connection to Dowager Queen Elizabeth W?  I feel lost.

The Duchess of Burgundy is Edward IV, Car Park Richard, & George Clarence's sister.    So she therefore is Elizabeth Woodville's sister in law.   And the only York with any "power" after Henry came to the throne so her court in Burgundy became a hotbed of intrigue as those that wanted Henry to go had a place to gather to plot his demise.

Edited May 1, 2017 by CindyBee