S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[izabella]

8 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I thought Dany was special.  Her full brother died of burns, didn't he?  

Yes, Viserys died spectacularly when Drogo had some of his blood riders pour molten gold over his head.  That's when Dany said something about Viserys not being a true Dragon, and that fire never hurts a Dragon.

Edited July 4, 2016 by izabella

[bluvelvet]

I wouldn't want to Jon to be impervious to fire, not all Targaryens are fire proof. I think the reveal will be something more mundane, like someone finding a document proving his lineage after Bran breaks the news. Or Howland Reed pops up and remembers Ned showing  up with a baby boy or Sam finding something in the library.

[Lady S.]

14 hours ago, annsterg said:

I'd have to go back and re watch to confirm, but didn't Jaime promise Edmure that if he cooperated, he and his wife and son would be sent to Casterly Rock, where they would be treated well and his son would have the upbringing of a highborn lad?

 

because if so, this is reason 344276543 that Jaime really is a piece of garbage, because he didn't say jack when Walder told him Edmure was back in a cell. 

Yep, I guess that offer was only good if Edmure was stupid enough to jump at it right away before all the threats started. Being just stupid enough to play along after being threatened with another massacre was just not enough gratitude for the poor, misunderstood Goldenhand the Sisterfucker. Either that or Jaime's "diplomacy" was bullshit. (Even if Edmure had jumped at the first chance to save his own skin he'd be doing so as a prisoner chained to a post awaiting a return to the warm embrace of the Freys, so I think either way there was a metaphorical knife to his throat, as the Blackfish put it.)

[DrSpaceman73]

I am not really sure who the Lannisters have left as allies. 

It seems they have killed or deceived and double crossed just about every major family across Westeros.  Even Littlefinger now is behind the Starks, though you never know when he might change his mind. 

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Please be mindful of which topic you are in when posting in here.

Recently we've had to remove a number of posts that contained book talk from this topic. We'd prefer not to hand out warnings, but if it continues we will do so. The topics are all clearly marked; it is your responsibility to ensure you're posting in the right place.

Thank you.

[Nutjob]

5 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I am not really sure who the Lannisters have left as allies. 

It seems they have killed or deceived and double crossed just about every major family across Westeros.  Even Littlefinger now is behind the Starks, though you never know when he might change his mind. 

Or those families have been obliterated by another House. This season alone, the show has effectively killed off the Martells, Tyrells, Boltons, Freys and Baratheons. The Lannisters have virtually no allies left outside of Casterly Rock, Dorne and Highgarden are backing Dany (and so is Pyke, for all intents and purposes), and the Starks have mobilized the entire North to fight against the White Walkers. Cersei has crowned herself Queen over a land full of her enemies.

[annsterg]

The Umbers and Karstarks might also be extinct. We still don't know what happened to Karstark in the battle.

Edited July 5, 2016 by annsterg

[bluvelvet]

Why are we assuming all the houses are dead, I assume some  have extended families that can step in ? A distant cousin perhaps ?

Edited July 5, 2016 by bluvelvet

[SimoneS]

I was re-watching the finale and noticed the dragon heads on Daenerys' ships. Great detail by the show.

As for the great houses, while it is true that these families have been weakened by the deaths of their main lines, these are huge families with tons of cousins and other distant relatives who will inherit their lands and power. The Lannisters' main problem is not only the lack of strong allies, but that they do not have any more gold and it is unlikely that the Iron Bank will fund any of Cersei's wars. By the time Daenerys arrives, there will be talk about surrendering not fighting. 

[annsterg]

I'm assuming there are offshoots: cousins, uncles, nephews, other brothers...but the show hasn't portrayed any of that. 

 

Speculation will help pass the next 8 months or so. I hope. 

I also hope the Boltons ARE extinct ... Or are soon made that way. 

Edited July 6, 2016 by annsterg

[Lady S.]

[riley702]

So that's why they call it King's Landing!

Edited July 8, 2016 by riley702

[One Tough Cookie]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 6:42 PM, bluvelvet said:

Why are we assuming all the houses are dead, I assume some  have extended families that can step in ? A distant cousin perhaps ?

 

I see Richard Armitage riding to the rescue on a white horse wearing black leather....

[SimoneS]

On 7/5/2016 at 10:02 PM, annsterg said:

I'm assuming there are offshoots: cousins, uncles, nephews, other brothers...but the show hasn't portrayed any of that. 

 

Speculation will help pass the next 8 months or so. I hope. 

I also hope the Boltons ARE extinct ... Or are soon made that way. 

I think the show presumes that the audience understands that these are great Houses with extended relatives like in the European royal houses. The show does sprinkle it in a bit, but not specifically. I have no clue about the Boltons, but there are likely cousins somewhere out there who will inherit the title and property unless it is taken away by Queen. 

Edited July 9, 2016 by SimoneS

[One Tough Cookie]

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think the show presumes that the audience understands that these are great Houses with extended relatives like in the European royal houses. The show does sprinkle it in a bit, but not specifically. I have no clue about the Boltons, but there are likely cousins somewhere out there who will inherit the title and property unless it is taken away by Queen. 

And Samwell Tarly's father had a sword of Valerian Steel, so they must have been influential at some point, no?

Edited July 9, 2016 by One More Time

[annsterg]

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think the show presumes that the audience understands that these are great Houses with extended relatives like in the European royal houses. The show does sprinkle it in a bit, but not specifically. I have no clue about the Boltons, but there are likely cousins somewhere out there who will inherit the title and property unless it is taken away by Queen. 

Unless the Starks or one of the other offended Northern houses decide it would be best to go all Reynes of Castamere on them. 

[Calamity Jane]

Re-watching this episode this morning, more able to focus on things other than just plot and character, I realized why that music from the beginning fills me with such dread and foreboding.  It's such a sweet set of broken chords, no minor key, no ominous percussion or strings - what is it about it that just screams that something big and awful is going to happen?  I finally realized that it's because it goes a few bars and then just stops for a few beats.  It makes me hold my breath without even realizing it, waiting for it to resume.  Over and over again, even after the other instruments come in with the piano - a couple of bars, stop.  A couple of bars, stop.  My hat is off to the composer for this whole sequence.  The music reinforces what we're seeing but also hints at more, much more coming, and makes you know to be on the alert for a bad, bad happening.  

[Hecate7]

On 7/9/2016 at 8:19 AM, SimoneS said:

I think the show presumes that the audience understands that these are great Houses with extended relatives like in the European royal houses. The show does sprinkle it in a bit, but not specifically. I have no clue about the Boltons, but there are likely cousins somewhere out there who will inherit the title and property unless it is taken away by Queen. 

While this is true of most of the houses, the show makes it very clear that with Ramsey's death, that's the end of House Bolton. The House words, sigil, and traditions will now pass away, as Sansa reminded Ramsey.

[arjumand]

On 11/07/2016 at 1:33 AM, Calamity Jane said:

Re-watching this episode this morning, more able to focus on things other than just plot and character, I realized why that music from the beginning fills me with such dread and foreboding.  It's such a sweet set of broken chords, no minor key, no ominous percussion or strings - what is it about it that just screams that something big and awful is going to happen?  I finally realized that it's because it goes a few bars and then just stops for a few beats.  It makes me hold my breath without even realizing it, waiting for it to resume.  Over and over again, even after the other instruments come in with the piano - a couple of bars, stop.  A couple of bars, stop.  My hat is off to the composer for this whole sequence.  The music reinforces what we're seeing but also hints at more, much more coming, and makes you know to be on the alert for a bad, bad happening.  

The entire use of sound / music / lack of music in this episode is out of this world. It's so well done, you really have to watch the episode more than once, and really listen.

The first minute has no dialogue or music - all you hear is the sound of the bell of the Sept of Baelor, calling everyone to the trial (such beautiful irony, too - the High Sparrow was making a power play by insisting the trial should be there, and ended up playing directly into Cersei's hands) and the sounds of everyone getting dressed, preparing for the trial. The piano only starts when you see the congregation filing in, and it's kind of jarring, at first, but then you're lulled into complacency when it continues, and nothing seems to be happening.

The next part which really stands out to me is the Tower of Joy, when the woman gives Ned baby Jon to hold, and as you focus on the baby, the violins swell to some kind of crescendo: and boom: adult Jon Snow. I love it.

Finally, the last sequence, and I've watched it so many times, and really for that amazing bit of music, called the Winds of Winter: (start watching at about 7:20)

https://youtu.be/cDh_2Ks7Iyg

I can't say I'm Dany's biggest fan, but Ramin Djawadi is trying to make me one. I looked up the music for season 6, and the track is described as:

Quote

Contains the melodies of the House Greyjoy (What is Dead May Never Die), Daenerys (Love in the Eyes), and Main Theme.

It so does.

ETA - it gets even better after the cut to black - there was a better version on youtube, complete with end credits, but I think it got taken down. The whole track is 3:29 minutes, and it's amazing.

Edited July 14, 2016 by arjumand

[Calamity Jane]

5 hours ago, arjumand said:

The entire use of sound / music / lack of music in this episode is out of this world. It's so well done, you really have to watch the episode more than once, and really listen.

The first minute has no dialogue or music - all you hear is the sound of the bell of the Sept of Baelor, calling everyone to the trial (such beautiful irony, too - the High Sparrow was making a power play by insisting the trial should be there, and ended up playing directly into Cersei's hands) and the sounds of everyone getting dressed, preparing for the trial. The piano only starts when you see the congregation filing in, and it's kind of jarring, at first, but then you're lulled into complacency when it continues, and nothing seems to be happening.

The next part which really stands out to me is the Tower of Joy, when the woman gives Ned baby Jon to hold, and as you focus on the baby, the violins swell to some kind of crescendo: and boom: adult Jon Snow. I love it.

Finally, the last sequence, and I've watched it so many times, and really for that amazing bit of music, called the Winds of Winter: (start watching at about 7:20)

https://youtu.be/cDh_2Ks7Iyg

I can't say I'm Dany's biggest fan, but Ramin Djawadi is trying to make me one. I looked up the music for season 6, and the track is described as:

It so does.

ETA - it gets even better after the cut to black - there was a better version on youtube, complete with end credits, but I think it got taken down. The whole track is 3:29 minutes, and it's amazing.

All the layers of care in things such as the music, the costuming, the sets, the scenery, make this an exceptionally rewarding series to re-watch.  It takes me a time or two through to watch the plot points carefully, then a time through to enjoy the little sidelights or smaller scenes (such as the one between Jamie and Walder Frey, which by so quickly the first time that I missed most of it), and sometimes again for music, etc.  There aren't many shows with enough production values to make it worthwhile, which is one reason I love this one so much.

[Macbeth]

What I saw on the rewatch is one of the things Cersei confesses to is that no thought ever gave her more joy than to think of the fear and pain the HS and all the septors felt when they were dying.  That is pretty telling.  Its not the thoughts of her children that has given her the greatest joy.  I believe that to be true and not just something she said as she was carried away by the moment.  And I thinks it speaks to the core of her character.

I wonder if Cersei's love (fierce protectiveness) for her children would have been really so great if it hadn't been forged in terror by the witch's prophecy.

The other thought is that the Mods moving S6 to past seasons is their subtle way of telling us the season is over no matter how much that pains us.  And it pains me.  It really does.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Macbeth

[annsterg]

I wonder if Cersei will or has tried to take over the Tyrell army or otherwise hold it in KL. I wonder if she will send the Lannister army to take the Reach, to secure the food supply.

[Macbeth]

If the Tyrell army was still in KL when the Sept blew, they would have left post haste.  Jaime had most of the Lannister army at River Run.  I don't think the Queen of Thorns would have offered to join forces with the Sand Snakes, if she didn't have hers well in hand. 

Cersei only knows how to destroy.  Securing the food supply is not  a tactical move she is capable of making.  IMO

[dinkysquid]

Quote

 

Do you have any examples of Cersei being smart because I'm struggling to think of any.  

 

Um....who's sitting on the Iron Throne? Yes, temporarily but still. It's her. 

Many have tried.....

 

 5

[revbfc]

6 hours ago, dinkysquid said:

Um....who's sitting on the Iron Throne? Yes, temporarily but still. It's her. 

Many have tried.....

 

 5

Yeah, but it was a short-sighted plan born out of rage and desperation.  All the logistics were handled by Qyburn, all she did was order the hit.  She's not smart enough to wield power properly, she can only destroy.

[arjumand]

11 hours ago, revbfc said:

Yeah, but it was a short-sighted plan born out of rage and desperation.  All the logistics were handled by Qyburn, all she did was order the hit.  She's not smart enough to wield power properly, she can only destroy.

Yes. Before the explosion, the Tyrells were annoyed at her and reserved their hatred for the High Sparrow. The Martells hated her but didn't have the resources to make retaliation count. After the explosion, the remaining Tyrell, who now has to find a bastard / lowborn with money to adopt so that the Tyrell name won't vanish, and the Martells unite in hatred against her. Those weren't only Targaryen sails in the fleet - we had Sunspear and Highgarden sails. Also, dragons.

Plus, how could she be sure that the Sept of Baelor explosion wouldn't cause a chain reaction and take out the entire city? Answer: she couldn't. And she didn't give a fuck.

And let's not forget the common people who will starve pretty soon, and this time it's completely Cersei's fault. The riots we saw in Season 2 will be nothing in comparison. At least then the Sparrows were nice guys who distributed food to the poor. She turned them into the Spanish Inquisition, and then she wiped them out.

And it's not like she didn't know this would happen - I still remember Olenna during the Purple Wedding, saying that she was off to taste the food she'd paid for. The first thing Olenna will have done will be cutting off the food supplies to King's Landing - maybe that's why she was in Dorne, to forge trade agreements, and she ended up getting a free dragon with every sale!

I loved the episode and I hate to nitpick, I really do, but were we ever given any explanation why Drogon and co. are suddenly so chill? Maybe they're not teenagers anymore, lol.

Edited July 19, 2016 by arjumand

[annsterg]

On 7/19/2016 at 7:05 AM, arjumand said:

I loved the episode and I hate to nitpick, I really do, but were we ever given any explanation why Drogon and co. are suddenly so chill? Maybe they're not teenagers anymore, lol.

 

Regarding the 2 prisoners*, I like to think it's because Tyrion has been visiting them and bringing them treats and scritching their itchy hides.

It was cool how the 2 prisoners just fell in line with Dany's commands, even without being ridden, and set to burning ships, the same as Drogon did.

But dang, the 2 prisoners were half the size of Drogon. I hope they grow a bunch now. I was just glad to see they WERE able to fly after being confined so long.

Drogon sowed his wild oats (so to speak, with his travels to Valyria and other places) on his walkabout (flyabout?) and so was ready to come home to/with Mom.

*I need to remember the other 2 dragons' names. Visyrion and Rhaegal? something like that. Too lazy to look it up now.

Edited July 21, 2016 by annsterg

[Hook75]

On 6/27/2016 at 4:18 AM, Save Yourself said:

I'm sorry to break it to you but most GOT viewers guessed that Jon Snow's parents were Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.

Jon Snow = Fire and Ice

Edited August 5, 2016 by Hook75

[Hecate7]

On 7/5/2016 at 10:04 AM, SilverStormm said:

Mod Note:

Please be mindful of which topic you are in when posting in here.

Recently we've had to remove a number of posts that contained book talk from this topic. We'd prefer not to hand out warnings, but if it continues we will do so. The topics are all clearly marked; it is your responsibility to ensure you're posting in the right place.

Thank you.

Until very recently, the name Winds of Winter meant you were pretty safe.

[blackwing]

I am very late to the party, but just finished the season, and completely loved it.  I am a big fan of this series, but this Season 6 was among the best.  Especially the last two episodes.  The music was so powerful in the season finale.  I've been listening to tracks over and over.

I do kind of wish that Cersei could have found a way to eliminate the High Sparrow and his minions without killing so many innocent people.  Poor Loras Tyrell didn't deserve to die.  And I have a bit of a soft spot for Margaery.  Yes, she was ambitious and I'm sure she enjoyed being queen, but at the end of the day, she was just a young woman who was used as a pawn in other people's ambitions and house politics.  I like Natalie Dormer and find it interesting that this is the second time now she has played a young woman who was caught up in her quest for power and met an untimely and abrupt death.  I felt sad for her in the Sept, she was the only one to realise that something was wrong.  She tried to take care of her innocent brother but people wouldn't get out of her way.  I think it would have been better if Margaery and Loras had been able to escape.  She returns to the Red Keep and finds that Tommen has killed himself.  Where does she go from there?

[okerry]

On 6/27/2016 at 0:50 AM, AlliMo said:

Dany will never sit on the Iron Throne, if only because the first thing that she'll do is have her dragons melt that monstrosity down.

Probably with Cersei sitting in it.

(I realize I'm late to the party, but I just saw the episode yesterday on the HBO reruns and yes, it was truly epic.)

[sjohnson]

Under the false impression the series was over, binged the episodes. Now very annoyed, it's good enough to want to know what happens but there is in my opinion far too much less than interesting or appetizing parts stretching this out. 

Tommen I thought was in denial about his mother and uncle, one reason why he was so paralyzed. And  it was why he was so eager for the religious consolation peddled by that old fraud. The thing is, I thought, he had hopes Cersei would be vindicated, or at least merely "convicted" of imperfections like Margaery, while acquitted of incest. The kid knows that her conviction for incest would raise questions about his right to sit on the throne. Also, the High Sparrow had no political gain from toppling Tommen. Quite the contrary, he had his hooks into Tommen, Tommen staying around as a supporter would have been highly regarded. No, it is just about certain the High Sparrow would have humiliated Cersei  as part of diminishing her power but leaving his acolyte on the throne. Tommen I think knew very well though that when he saw the ruins, he was looking at Cersei's confession on all counts. Unlike Myrcella, with no training in the more relaxed ways of Dorne, plus being religious, admitting to himself he was the product of incest was deeply horrifying. He put down the crown he had no right to, and erased an abomination from the earth. 

Strange as it might seem, Lyanna Mormont struck me as ludicrous as Sansa Stark in the first season, head stuffed full of romantic nonsense.  The spectacle of grown men taking a silly little girl so seriously was inadvertently comic. And it makes me think the real goal is just to use her babble as an excuse for rebellion. The thing of course is, secession? So they can fight the White Walkers all by themselves? Darwin Award winners every one of them, if the script/plot was honest. I suppose most people despise the wusses like Tommen or Renly or Loras but I thought they were more likable. And more likely to do good too.

The sudden discovery Arya has magic face powers seemed to me less important than accepting this tomboy has matured into a woman...murderer. Okay, nobody ever heard of a trial for murder in this cockamamie version of the world (just for sexual offense? really?) But Walder Frey killed two of her people, her brother and mother. How come she gets three for two? Because Starks are worth more than Freys? Ick. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life. That was once regarded as a lesser form of morality than to forgive seven times seventy. But one life for a life and a half? Isn't that a step backwards? 

It seems to me highly unlikely that Daenerys was always immune to fire. Seriously, the girl never accidentally something hot, even as an urchin? Also, if the dragons were expected to be fireproof, they would have been testing it on purpose. I'm afraid I'm sure Daenerys' fireproofing came from her connection to the dragons, not the dragons lover her because she's fireproof. 

To me, then, Jon meeting a dragon and bonding, then being fireproof too, would make sense. To be honest I was wondering during his dead spell, having been spoiled that he comes back, whether he would rise from a funeral pyre. 

As to the big war against Cersei, I agree with the observations above that people in Dorne should be rising up and killing those mad dogs. And frankly, while it's entertaining to watch little snippets of Olenna Tyrell snarking, can you imagine living with a woman like that and feeding on a steady diet of it? She did not actually have much use for her husband, son and grandson and I really doubt they didn't know it. It seems to me that people back in Highgarden expected to follow her orders to go to war would stop, think about whether they wanted to go to war. And if they didn't think it was in their best interests, they would just laugh at Olenna. What's she going to do, snark them to death? They would just treat her like any old woman, which is not always very nice, is it? Plus the Vale is still a big play, which means Little Finger doing who knows what, and the Iron Islands, which means Euron Greyjoy who after all has the much larger fleet. I don't know how well the show will plot this, but Cersei should have cards to play, and all Daenerys really can rely on is the Unsullied and the Dothraki. I don't think she's prepared for a winter campaign. The thing is, in the face of the White Walkers, who really cares about that iron chair?

Daenerys freeing slaves on the other hand has been to me more interesting a story. Her magical powers make it sort of a flabby one, but still, there is an intrinsic interest the mindless intrigue for power and vengeance that infests so much of the plot. 

The real plot then is the White Walkers. It's very hard to breathe any life into zombie stories, which have been done to death. But the main players here are Jon and Bran, who have no contact with each other, and Melisandre. Those are the only people who give a crap. (And I'm not excluding the wildlings, especially not Mance Rayder, who specifically was interested in opening a passage through the Wall, even if it meant killing all the Night's Watch, leaving the Wall defenseless against the Walkers. You can talk a lot of palaver about Free Folk but that was Craster's policy, sacrifice what you don't want to the Walkers and keep what you do safe.) The zombie is short some characters and even shorter on character interaction!

Jon at least we understand. Bran, not so much, because juveniles aren't cool and we haven't seen him and don't really know him. With Melisandre we run into fantasy's innate problems, which is that if she's got magic powers, then how is it unlikely she doesn't have a true, really existing God. And if He exists, who are we to say He's no good? I thought Renly Baratheon was vastly superior to the man-burning Stannis.  (And Ned Stark/Robb Stark was edging close to the villain side for picking this murderous bigot just because he was *older*. That's a terrible reason.) Although the show pretends to care sometimes that nobility and monarchy is immoral, as in pretending Jon Snow is an asshole for feeling unloved just because he had consumer goods, I think the truth is, the show really does want to have that awful little girl's speeches taken seriously. 

You can go ahead and pretend this is a medieval society as an excuse for gore, rape, nobles who are truly loved by the filthy masses and other charming daydreams. But suddenly sticking most of the characters with secular moral values and pluralist tolerance? I'm as eager to suspend disbelief as anyone, but when you have time to think between episodes, this stuff starts to come to mind. Wish I had waited till the end of the series.

Edited February 3, 2017 by sjohnson

[Knuckles]

"Okay, nobody ever heard of a trial for murder in this cockamamie version of the world"...yes, there are trials, if the Lords of the major houses are interested. You will remember Ramsay Bolton freely murdering innocent girls by hunting them, and then shooting his guards as well. Right and law flowed from the King to his Lords, and from them, to lesser Lords, his banner men. The killing of serfs or peasants was not a major issue, unless a Lord chose to take an interest. Welcome to the medieval world.

And yes, young child who had inherited the throne or a title did indeed wield power...it was all lineage, not ability that mattered. Henry the 6th of England was crowned King at 9 months old...though there were bitter power struggles over the right to be named Regent and rule in his name, until he came of age...but "of age" varied...he could overrule his Regent at 12, if he felt strongly. The child was the True Heir, and held his power, it was believed by right, and by God. Again, welcome to the medieval world. 

Barbara Tuchman's book is a wonderful read on the late medieval world, A Distant Mirror...which is the beginnings of ordinary people (not women, obviously) but merchants and those of means, having some say in their world. But even then, it was very limited. It was the bankers of Italy, who financed the thrones, and their wars, who began to change the world. Even kings were in their debt...something George Martin uses to underpin many elements of his story. And it is accurate.

[millennium]

On 9/14/2016 at 2:00 PM, blackwing said:

 

I do kind of wish that Cersei could have found a way to eliminate the High Sparrow and his minions without killing so many innocent people.  Poor Loras Tyrell didn't deserve to die.  And I have a bit of a soft spot for Margaery.  Yes, she was ambitious and I'm sure she enjoyed being queen, but at the end of the day, she was just a young woman who was used as a pawn in other people's ambitions and house politics.  I like Natalie Dormer and find it interesting that this is the second time now she has played a young woman who was caught up in her quest for power and met an untimely and abrupt death.  I felt sad for her in the Sept, she was the only one to realise that something was wrong.  She tried to take care of her innocent brother but people wouldn't get out of her way.  I think it would have been better if Margaery and Loras had been able to escape.  She returns to the Red Keep and finds that Tommen has killed himself.  Where does she go from there?

I guess I'm in the minority because I love Cersei.   At the same time I adored Margery.    I can accept Margery's death but what left me feeling very dissatisfied is that she died without her plan being fully explained.   I assumed she was faking conversion as a way to escape from the High Sparrow's clutches, what with passing that note to her grandmother.   And obviously she cut a deal with the Sparrow to spring Loras (which included Loras not being mutilated, or so Margery thought, although why she acquiesced to Loras being inducted into the Sparrows for life mystifies me).   Less clear was Tommen's role and what Margery hoped to accomplish by turning him.   Was he merely a pawn in Margery's plan to see Cersei tried and convicted?  Or did her plan have more wide-ranging implications re: the Sept's growing influence in King's Landing?   We'll probably never know.

I finished Season Six only a few days ago and I'm still chuckling over Cersei taunting "Shame, shame, shame ..." as she closed the door on the doomed nun and the Franken-Mountain.

[DollEyes]

 I not only didn't find Cersei's arranging the rape/possible murder of Unella at Ser Gregor's undead hands a laughing matter, given all the innocent blood that has been shed because of Cersei in her quest for the Iron Throne (especially Tommen's),  if seeing all of Cersei's enemies coming for her with Queen Dany leading the way is any indication, I'd say that Cersei's days on the throne are both numbered and limited and I couldn't be happier.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by DollEyes

[Hecate7]

On 2/3/2017 at 10:44 AM, sjohnson said:

The sudden discovery Arya has magic face powers seemed to me less important than accepting this tomboy has matured into a woman...murderer. Okay, nobody ever heard of a trial for murder in this cockamamie version of the world (just for sexual offense? really?) But Walder Frey killed two of her people, her brother and mother. How come she gets three for two? Because Starks are worth more than Freys? Ick. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life. That was once regarded as a lesser form of morality than to forgive seven times seventy. But one life for a life and a half? Isn't that a step backwards? 

Three Starks were killed at the Red Wedding: Catelyn, Robb, and Talisa. One of them was pregnant, so you could argue that four Starks were killed. I don't think it's a numbers game, though. Walder didn't just kill the Starks, but all their men and their servants, too. So Arya is within her rights to kill anyone wearing Frey colors she happens to run across. There's no set limit to the number here.  I agree with the whole rest of this post though.

[supposebly]

I just finished this season and I have only one thing to add:

I can't wait to see Cersei's face when she sees the dragons. Flying over Dani's armada.

Cersei has made Dani's job rather easy. The Lannisters are diminished, the Baratheons are no more and everyone else is fighting against her.

The North however might be a harder nut to crack for Dani. Especially since winter is here and her army is not used to the cold. At all.

Although I guess the dragons might keep them warm on occasion.

[The Companion]

On 6/26/2016 at 9:35 PM, easypeasy said:

The crust on that Frey pie looked legit. Hot pie would be proud.

But what about the gravy? People ignore the gravy and that's just about standards.

On 6/27/2016 at 3:43 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't know about that. She's immune to fire but her own brother, who was just as Targaryan as Dany, was not so that seems like an awfully risky way to test whether Jon is related to her or not. She has no family left so she might want to keep Jon around because she has no other blood relatives (especially after Tyrion tells her that Jon is an okay guy). Plus he hasn't been trying to march on King's Landing and declare himself the King of the Seven Kingdoms so he's not really a threat to her claim to the throne. If anything, she might try to convince him to support her claim which would help her win over the north. Right now the only other house who has pledged that kind of support is the Iron Islands and they're very isolated so I'm not sure how much that helps her.

I hope that Jon is a bridge, rather than a competitor. Daenarys seemed open to working with the Greyjoys, so she may be open to working with the Starks as well. Perhaps any bad blood can be mitigated by her sole remaining relative. I also don't think Jon has any interest in the iron throne. He has always been a reluctant leader, and I think he would happily cede Winterfell and the Kingdom if he thought he could do so. 

On 6/27/2016 at 11:13 AM, RedHawk said:

By "innocent people" I didn't mean the followers of the High Sparrow, members of the cult of the Seven (or whatever they called themselves). Yes, they are not exactly innocent because they participated in enforcing the cult's imprisonment of Cersei, Margery, Tommen, Loras, etc.

But what about the nobles and residents of Kings Landing who were there to watch the trial? Did that make them complicit? I don't think so as they saw it as a legitimate trial, I assume, and did not know of all the machinations going on behind closed doors. Cersei isn't exactly innocent of the charges, anyway.
 

This struck me as well. Cersei made powerful enemies that we know of, but she must have also made additional enemies in rich and powerful families by killing the entire court. 

On 6/27/2016 at 11:25 AM, DarkRaichu said:

Err, ok, Jon was just too honorable to kill someone who brought him back.  He owed her his live so he spared hers, debt paid.  

Arya does not have that same arrangement with Mel, though :)

Jon seemed to be tired of all the killing too. We have seen a lot of death in the last season or so, and he has had a front row seat to most of it. Whether he didn't want to make an enemy, he believed that she might have some use for the war to come, or he just didn't think it was in his jurisdiction, I hope his decision doesn't come back to bite him on the butt. 

 

On 6/27/2016 at 2:36 PM, slf said:

I would have to disagree entirely that Cersei is intelligent and clever. She's not without her bright moments, but they're few and far between. Cersei had Robert killed so she could rule through Joffrey, which failed and was always going to. She refused to see logic where the Starks and Tyrells were concerned, repeatedly, despite having everything explained to her and she just screwed up every time she had the opportunity and even a few times when you'd think she wouldn't. She was hugely responsible for civil unrest and rioting, the Sparrows coming to power, and breakdowns in alliances that were necessary for food, money, and soldiers. She's now illegally seized the Iron Throne, I guess hoping everyone will believe she had nothing to do with the wildfire and death of her son, though their faces suggested they aren't as stupid as Cersei and many fans want them to be. She's a despot. The Tyrells kept the Lannisters in power, paid debts, fought their battles, and forged the ultimate alliance of dynastic marriage. And she repaid them by burning them to death. Her daughter-in-law the queen, the High Septon, a great deal of the court, all burned to death. If supporting her gets you killed with wildfire then why follow her and bend the knee? 

And there is no reason to believe the people don't already think she's responsible for not only the wildfire but Tommen's death. Her power play at the end was as good a confession as any. She has no right to the throne. She's not a Baratheon. She's not claiming as a Targ descendent (and that was how Robert claimed the throne; he won it in battle but refused to claim it that way instead invoking his mother's Targ blood) and there are better claims on that score anyway. 

As per the Dorne scene we learn Cersei - who is at war with the North, the Riverlands, and the Iron Islands, as well as dealing with massive instability in the Crownlands - has declared war on Dorne and the Reach. The Reach. Which supplies the Crownlands with food. Which can claim the largest military in the entire Seven Kingdoms and the largest Navy. Whose Lord Paramount was just murdered by her, alongside his two children.

Cersei is an idiot blinded by greed and vanity. Almost every move she makes digs her in deeper. She's hardly a master manipulator. She's just entirely without conscience.

Also, I can't cheer with you when it comes to Unella getting raped repeatedly. One of the points of Cersei's walk of shame is that she's being punished for the wrong reasons, she's being punished for being a woman. It's misogyny. We weren't meant to cheer during Cersei's walk; if you aren't a misogynist then there's no good reason for misogyny. Cersei's walk was unjust. And I can't get all ecstatic about a woman getting raped by Gregor Clegane's animated corpse. It's just beyond the pale.

I agree. She doesn't think ahead, she doesn't respond to logic, and she doesn't learn. If she really wanted to disarm the Sparrows, surely she could have found a time during which all or most of them were there, and framed a follower of the Lord of Light. It would have killed Loras, but the lost of life would have been significantly lower and she would have had plausible deniability with the Tyrells. She has a scorched earth policy that has not served her very well so far, and will not serve her in the end. She thinks she has won when they place that crown on her head, but she has almost nobody left and even those who support her must be reconsidering now (PLEASE, JAMIE, I AM LOOKING AT YOU).

I do find it funny that the Baratheons were similarly short-sighted. Someone needs to teach these people patience. If Stannis had stayed in Dragonstone and licked his wounds, he would have had a really good claim to the throne when Tommen died. 

On 6/27/2016 at 2:49 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Nah. Margaery had to die because no way would she have stood for Cersei killing her father and brother in the Sept.  That shit was gangsta.  I have to wonder what happened to the Tyrell army. Were they outside the perimeter of the Sept or did they die along with the family?  And what other noble families were there to witness the trial shenanigans and got wiped out?  Any other Lannisters left since Kevan and Lancel are no more? So many questions! 

I think there could have been a way to save Margaery and her father and to redirect their attentions on a common enemy. Cersei didn't have the brains to pull that off though. The noble families continue to drop like flies. They may need to reconsider the official position on bastards, as that is likely what is left in a lot of cases.

 

On 6/27/2016 at 9:06 PM, bluvelvet said:

I have a different take on Tommen's death, I think Cersei sent the Mountain to keep him in his room so that he wasn't caught in the blaze.  I don't think Tommen realized his mother wasn't at the Sept. My reading of the scene was that Tommen saw the Sept blow up and thought he lost his mother, wife and uncle in one fell swoop and just couldn't deal.  I don't think he realized that Cersei caused the fire to tell the truth, he was just too naive. I also don't think Cersei thought he would commit suicide but she had accepted that he would die someday.

He dismissed someone before his death, so I thought he had gotten an update regarding the situation (which would have included that his mother was not injured). I am not sure whether it was the realization that his mother was a monster, the loss of Margarey, or the sheer horror of watching that level of destruction rain down, but I think poor Tommen was a good kid. He wasn't an interesting character, and he certainly wasn't a strong one, but I still kinda wish he had ridden off to become a Maester or something. 

On 6/27/2016 at 10:11 PM, sashabear21 said:

I think deep down Ned knew what would happen if Jon's true parentage were revealed before he was old enough to defend himself.  While Robert made a big show of loving Lyanna, I doubt he would have hesitated to kill Jon as a child knowing that a.) he was a Targaryen, and b.) a constant reminder that Lyanna may have chosen Rhaegar over him.  The only one in the series that seems to have a bad thing to say about Rhaegar is Robert, and it could be that he had to make up his own narrative because he couldn't deal with it that Lyanna may have run off quite willingly.  Thus Ned had to keep him safe and his origins a secret from even his own wife in order to keep him safe and keep his promise to his sister.  He couldn't take that risk, and Ned seemed like the kind of guy that probably just started to think of Jon as his own after awhile.  

I think we saw him consider whether or not the time was right when they departed, and I agree that he would have told Jon eventually, had he had the chance. I think it would have been unlike Ned to send his nephew away, while he was in danger. 

On 6/28/2016 at 8:29 AM, revbfc said:

Thinking about the explosion again.  Destroying the Sept of Baelor  didn't just kill her enemies, it most likely disrupted or destroyed key sewage infrastructure.  I wouldn't be surprised if a plague erupts in KL because of the lack of drainage and water.  Add to that the inevitable famine brought on by Winter and war...Well, Cersei will not sit on that throne for very long.

I guess everyone else will be sitting on the throne for awhile, though. *ba dum tss*

On 7/2/2016 at 7:56 AM, Knuckles said:

Love your post. Olenna is onboard for revenge...the food that Highgarden has been sending to KL is done. So Cersei faces terrified and possibly starving small folk in the city, though what is left of the nobility will not have easy access to food either. Cersei is big on revenge, not one for forward planning.

 

Olenna is not just on board for revenge, it is all she has. She is the sole survivor (as far as we know) of the richest house. While the Lannisters have the reputation of being richer, we know that the vault is empty. She has nothing to spend that money on other than revenge. 

On 9/14/2016 at 1:00 PM, blackwing said:

I am very late to the party, but just finished the season, and completely loved it.  I am a big fan of this series, but this Season 6 was among the best.  Especially the last two episodes.  The music was so powerful in the season finale.  I've been listening to tracks over and over.

I do kind of wish that Cersei could have found a way to eliminate the High Sparrow and his minions without killing so many innocent people.  Poor Loras Tyrell didn't deserve to die.  And I have a bit of a soft spot for Margaery.  Yes, she was ambitious and I'm sure she enjoyed being queen, but at the end of the day, she was just a young woman who was used as a pawn in other people's ambitions and house politics.  I like Natalie Dormer and find it interesting that this is the second time now she has played a young woman who was caught up in her quest for power and met an untimely and abrupt death.  I felt sad for her in the Sept, she was the only one to realise that something was wrong.  She tried to take care of her innocent brother but people wouldn't get out of her way.  I think it would have been better if Margaery and Loras had been able to escape.  She returns to the Red Keep and finds that Tommen has killed himself.  Where does she go from there?

I find myself really sad about Margaery as well. She was ambitious and she wanted to be queen, but she seemed to want to do good things with her power (whether or not that was motivated by selfish goals). She manipulated her husbands to get what she wanted, but her manipulations seemed to be fairly benign. Perhaps she would have grown into something else, especially with the control she seemed to exert over Tommen, but thus far in the series her worst crimes seem to have been to try to send Cersei away (not kill her, not send her to a dungeon, just send her home), to try to get others in her life to join in her PR campaign, and to lie to protect her beloved brother. These are not the actions of a particularly bad person, especially in the GOT universe. Even in the end, when she was facing death, she wouldn't leave without her family and she tried to warn others and get them out. I would have liked to see what would have happened had she hitched her wagon to Dany. 

With the confirmation of Jon Snow's parentage, I was a little confused about his name. Is the regional bastard name given by place of birth, the ancestral home of the mother, or the ancestral home of the presumed father? I sort of assumed it would be the location of the birth, but if Jon  was born in the south, would he have been a snow? 

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

With the confirmation of Jon Snow's parentage, I was a little confused about his name. Is the regional bastard name given by place of birth, the ancestral home of the mother, or the ancestral home of the presumed father? I sort of assumed it would be the location of the birth, but if Jon  was born in the south, would he have been a snow? 

Jon was always known to have been born in the south. He was allegedly sired by Ned during the Rebellion, which only took place in the southern regions. The only way he could have been born in the north was if Ned brought a pregnant mistress up there, which we know he did not. (Cat said he rode south with Robert after their wedding and came back a year later with another woman's child.) I think the bastard names must go by where they actually live even if they weren't born there. For instance, Oberyn was a world traveler so some of his 8 bastard daughters could have been born outside of Dorne.

[The Companion]

28 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Jon was always known to have been born in the south. He was allegedly sired by Ned during the Rebellion, which only took place in the southern regions. The only way he could have been born in the north was if Ned brought a pregnant mistress up there, which we know he did not. (Cat said he rode south with Robert after their wedding and came back a year later with another woman's child.) I think the bastard names must go by where they actually live even if they weren't born there. For instance, Oberyn was a world traveler so some of his 8 bastard daughters could have been born outside of Dorne.

That makes sense. Maybe I am overthinking it anyway. I doubt anyone really cares which bastard name you choose. I had just assumed that Jon Snow was a Snow because of the Stark name that he would have if he were legitimate, and it occurred to me when we saw him born in the South that many bastards may necessarily know who their father was, so the name couldn't be based on where their father lived. 

[Constantinople]

I find it more and more difficult to believe that the Northern lords would proclaim Jon King of the North

One of the running themes of Season 6 is how bitter everyone still was over Robb being unable to protect the North from the Iron Islanders invasion, and getting their family members killed at the Red Wedding. Even Lady Lyanna Mormont was still bitter over it. That's why so few Northern lords followed Jon against Ramsay

If the Knights of the Vale hadn't shown up, Jon and his army would have been wiped out after Jon impulsively threw away their battle plan in a futile attempt to save Rickon.

i doubt the Northern lords would have rewarded Jon's stupidity by proclaiming him King of the North after suffering from the stupidity of the previous king