S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[Alapaki]

3 hours ago, dbell1 said:

For all the questions about why Benjen dropped Bran and Meera off... That was the weirwood where Jon and Sam said their vows.  It's about a mile from the Wall.  So, a bit of a hike for Meera, but they should be safe since he mentioned the magic surrounding the Wall - hope it keeps White Walkers out. 

Still processing the show today - so many awesome moments last night.  And the music - just amazing! 

One thing I've been wondering, the Night King and his zombie army appeared to have been approaching the 3ER tree from the south, or perhaps the southeast.  That would place them directly between Bran/Meera/Benjen and the Wall.  While the Wall runs the entire width of Westeros, and it's certainly possible that Benjen could've ridden them off far to either the east or west before turning south towards the Wall, it would make the most sense for him to take them close to Castle Black, which is the only location on the Wall that he could be certain to be actually manned, and therefore able to provide Bran/Meera passage.

(also, as I seem to recall Benjen saying he'd been summoned by the 3ER, I'm guessing that if Bran going South of the Wall would permit the Night King to do so [the way he did with the Tree] then the 3ER would've told Benjen that and made sure Bran stayed away from the Wall.  So I think that if the Wall's coming down, it's coming down some other way)

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-I think people are getting the sexual assault of Ulenna from a spoiler that said "gregor has his way with her" but I didn't see that on the show. He was very clearly up by her head when Cersi closed the door. I think he did gouge her eyes out and torture her but I think Cersi wanted her to suffer in the way she had

I wasn't aware of that spoiler, and I didn't pick up on the rape angle until my wife mentioned it.  But I do think there is evidence, for those who choose to view it that way, in the show:

1) Cersei "waterboarding" Ulenna with wine;

2) Cersei letting her hand gently glide across Ulenna's body in what my old catechism days would call an "impure way";

3) Gregor taking his helmet off, which could certainly be just to freak Ulenna out, but could also be the first stage in his disrobing;

4) Cersei's chant of "shame . . . shame . . . ", which again could just be to taunt Ulenna with the words she used on Cersei, but could also be foreshadowing that a bodily sin was about to be committed.  

I know all of these things could go in any direction, and I'm not convinced one way or the other, and ultimately whatever was about to happen it was going to be hellish for Ulenna.

[for those who argue that the show has been too kind to Cersei in comparison to the books, the show may have done her a disservice here by failing to include the scene where whomever it was whom Cersei sent to the Sept to be a "witness" to Margery's wrongdoing was subjected to very similar physical torture until he recanted his story and implicated Cersei.

[slf]

4 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

And why exactly would Lyanna support Sansa? Her first impression of Sansa was not a good one ('you are beautiful, blah blah' '), and she made very clear that she didn't see Sansa as a Stark, calling her Sansa Bolton/Lannister ('I will always be a Stark', 'if you say so'). Also Davos made a pretty good case for Jon saying that Joer Mormont personaly chose Jon to lead the crows, made him Steward, that he trusted him, etc. It was pretty clear that right there Lyanna's mind turned from 'he is a Snow' to 'he is a Stark' when she learned all that.

And as far as all those lords just accepting a 10 years old sweeping  the floor with them, so what? This is a world where people bow to a child like Tommen becoming king, a weak spoiled child like Robynn rulling a powerful house and Lyanna Mormont being Lady Mormont. They accept children as rulers, why they wouldn't accept children calling them on their bullshit? For what is worth, House Mormont went to war against the Boltons and won. Lyanna has a double right to speak her mind.

Why? For the most obvious and simple of reasons: Sansa is the legitimate heir of Eddard Stark. Lyanna commands power only through her bloodline. She's fought and won no battles. She's completely inexperienced and is in fact a child. But she is a legitimate Mormont. And refusing to support Ned's heir and selecting his illegitimate son instead is essentially treason. 

Jon has repeatedly fucked up as a leader, and did so just last episode. Sansa is the one who saved the day. Sansa is the heir. Jon is a bastard. The show was all about Jon the Bastard - wear it like armor, blah blah blah - when they got to wax poetic about Jon. Now they want to handwave his illegitimacy because it isn't convenient? Jon is usurping his sister. He's no more legally a King than Cersei is a Queen.

What is with this show slandering the North? In the books the Northmen and Northwomen are busting ass from the point Ned gets arrested. They're battling the Ironborn and picking off the Freys left and right. They don't have to be rallied into action by a 10 year old. Hell, Not!Arya is one of the major rallying points for the Northmen. No way in hell do the Northmen take a look at Ned Stark's daughter and pass.

That whole storyline was bonkers.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, slf said:

Jon has repeatedly fucked up as a leader, and did so just last episode. Sansa is the one who saved the day. Sansa is the heir. Jon is a bastard. The show was all about Jon the Bastard - wear it like armor, blah blah blah - when they got to wax poetic about Jon. Now they want to handwave his illegitimacy because it isn't convenient? Jon is usurping his sister. He's no more legally a King than Cersei is a Queen.

What is with this show slandering the North? In the books the Northmen and Northwomen are busting ass from the point Ned gets arrested. They're battling the Ironborn and picking off the Freys left and right. They don't have to be rallied into action by a 10 year old. Hell, Not!Arya is one of the major rallying points for the Northmen. No way in hell do the Northmen take a look at Ned Stark's daughter and pass.

That whole storyline was bonkers.

But its consistently bonkers which is what is weird.  The writers seem to recognize that Jon is becoming leader almost by accident over and over again with enough forethought that they've set up a situation where he becomes KITN, not because he engineered a great victory, but because he fought despite an almost certain painful death and the other Lords were ashamed that they didn't.

I am starting to think they are intentionally setting up a dynamic where its the advisers not the leaders that matter in terms of taking the Throne.  Because Dany also consistently sucks at ruling but gains follower through moments of Epic.

[domina89]

1 hour ago, Misplaced said:

I think that is the first time Sansa has been kissed in this series by a man who wasn't trying to abuse or control her

You may be right. Did Tyrion ever kiss her? When they wed maybe? Or on the cheek ever?

[locomoco]

20 hours ago, dbell1 said:

Lyanna Mormont remains a total badass. I really need her, Brienne, and Arya to have a spin off show.

"The Lady Bear and the Maidens Fair"

Edited June 27, 2016 by locomoco

[Dewey Decimate]

2 hours ago, Misplaced said:

 

Tommen -- that was SO well done -- his rapid steps away from the window and back again reminded me of something but I can't put my finger on it.  Double points for Cersei's level of crazy that if she had gone to her son instead of having Torture Time with the Septa, Tommen might have lived.  There must be something meaningful in Cersei insisting he be burned: I wondered if it was because Tommen's lovely blond head was a stack of mush, whereas Joffrey and Myrcella were unblemished and beautiful in death.  

  Hide contents

 

In two viewings (so far) of this ep, that is the one moment I've repeatedly rewound. So eerie, and the sound is fantastic. Total stomach-in-my-throat. And I love the detail that Tommen is, of course, wearing gold as he walks to his death.

[Gertrude]

So I've been thinking about Dorne and I don't know why they couldn't have used the actual plotline from there and not their fucked up version. They really need to stop falling in love with their actors and do what's best for the story.

So use Ellaria as the introduction to Dorne, hell even have her keep her same role of vengeance incarnate. Have her plot with the Snakes and Arianne (yes, god-damned Arianne) or not - hell, Ellaria could be dropped once the other women are introduced. Let the Sand Snakes keep their own personalities and viewpoints instead of a three-headed hydra who are indistinguishable (except for the one who has a spectacular rack). Do the Queenmaker plot, have it go wrong to the extent that Myrcella is killed rather than maimed. Doran has to serve up a sacrificial goat to appease Jaime (who, I don't know, comes down as an ambassador instead of part of the Cooper and Darnell comedy duo). Maybe Jaime is with Hotah when they follow and find the group, maybe no one kills Myrcella, but she is thrown from her horse ... something that makes it hard to blame anyone specifically. Jaime leaves on bad terms, Trystane is heartbroken, Doran is nervous.

Then this season we get Doran telling Arianne about Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood. They could even keep the part about Arianne being betrothed to Viserys but having to switch plans, revealing they were in league with Illyrio/Varys the whole time.

Why is this less compelling and less riddled with WTF? than 'Sand Snakes - wooo hoooo!'?

[lmsweb]

Just a few small other things to add after a rewatch and sleeping on it:

I thought Varys looked absolutely pissed both in Dorne and on the ship. Usually Conleth plays Varys with a kind of mild mannered look of disdain on his face. I noticed his scenes in this episode he looked more rugged and very, very determined looking. The tan he got in Dorne may have helped too. Varys would like have been heartbroken over what happened in KL.

I have watched the scene where Sansa and LF exchange glances during the King In The North scene, and what I saw was a super mad LF and Sansa looking a wee bit concerned. I don't see anything there to indicate that Sansa is thinking twice and there is going to be conflict between her and Jon because she suddenly wants to be Queen. I see Sansa as a much more subtle type of player. She'll let Jon be the figurehead, while she helps coordinate stuff behind the scenes.

I am looking forward to seeing Tyrion find out about Jon next season, both his parentage and his new status. Although they haven't had a scene together since the beginning of the series, I thought they had great chemistry and they established that Jon and Tyrion had become friends before Tyrion left the wall. That link could no doubt come in helpful once Dany arrives.

As far as Cersei's reaction (or lack of it) to Tommen's death - she knew it was inevitable. I don't know if Tommen killed himself over the loss of Margery. I think he may have been in such despair over what he knew his mother had done that he couldn't bear it or having to live with her around. Poor kid. That actually bothered me more than most of the other deaths in this episode. Cersei's only motivation now, and for the last little while, is revenge. She's like the Evil Oprah of Westeros..."You get to die, and you get to die, and you get to die...and EVERYONE gets to die!"

Scenes I need for next year: Arya and the Hound reunion. Sam doing ANYTHING meaningful. Gendry rowing his way right into Dany's fleet. I'm also interested to see if Dany is going to clash with Ellaria Sand. I don't know why, but I can see that coming to a head at some point.

[RedheadZombie]

58 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I don't want to see Jon and Sansa married.  There's a major ick factor there.  They are first cousins and were raised to believe they were half siblings.  Also, the Starks don't appear to have Targaryen/Lannister sensibilities when it comes to banging a blood relative.  I think Jon being King in the North could work if the North really wants him (because he still has Stark blood), his cousins back him (because he is the best choice) and HE wants the position.  Thing is, I don't know what Jon wants.  He seems reluctant to lead anything or anybody.  But if it turns out that he is Rhaegar's trueborn son, it will be interesting to see Dany's reaction to another legitimate claim to the IT.  It would also be interesting to see how all of Westeros reacts to the news.  I'm looking at you, Tyrion.  LOL

I want to see Dany's reaction to a living blood relative.  I just don't think she will see him as her enemy.  

[lmsweb]

Also, next year I want a scene where Dany and Yara meet Olenna and she sasses the shit out of both of them and then they adopt her as their Grandmother. Or something. Actually, I could watch Olenna sass out pretty much every character for one whole hour and call it one of the best episodes ever.

[snowblossom2]

2 hours ago, Knuckles said:

After Arya sliced old Walder's throat, did she think to free Edmure, who'd been clapped back in the cells again? Or will she let him rot? He is a Tully, after all.

I doubt she knew he was down there

[morgankobi]

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There must be something meaningful in Cersei insisting he be burned: I wondered if it was because Tommen's lovely blond head was a stack of mush, whereas Joffrey and Myrcella were unblemished and beautiful in death.

I thought she was trying to make him equal with Joffrey and Myrcella (and Tywin) as their bodies were burned to a crisp in her full-measure explosion. She even instructed his ashes be scattered at the remains of the Sept.

 

We called this "Jamie's Regret Tour."

As he talks to Walder Frey, "Oooh, I backed the wrong horse here."

As he gets home and see Cersei, "Oooh, I backed the wrong horse here, too. Crap."

Edited June 27, 2016 by morgankobi
spelling

[TaurusRose]

On 6/27/2016 at 9:51 AM, jeansheridan said:

I liked it mostly.  I hated the Arya bit.  I don't like her Mission Impossible face pull off.  I don't think she should have that magic after declaring her name is Arya Stark.  I hope there are consequences for using unearned magic.  

I think Jon earned their respect.  He won ugly but he won.  He gathered what troops he had and did his best.  He fought in the trenches.  He captured the monster with his bare hands.  And he is merciful and generous.  After Bolton he must seem dreamy.  He looks enough like Robb and sounds like Ned.  If Lyanna isn't crushing on him, give her a year or two.

I'm rewatching the earlier seasons in my spare time and I don't think Arya is using unearned magic at least not from the show's POV.  She and Jaqen had an interesting chat before they parted ways in S2.  He knew that she had many names on her list and even repeated them to her.  He offered to teach her how to become a Faceless Man and gave her the coin to follow him, knowing full well why she wanted to learn his skills.  I think he taught Arya everything she needed to know before she left Braavos; I got the impression that he was totally okay with her remaining herself and leaving.   

I agree with everything you said about Jon.  I don't have a love interest in mind for Jon, I only know who I don't want to see him end up with.  Sansa or Dany; although, I think Dany and Jon would look sensational in the same scene.  Jon lost his focus in one battle and because of that he's incompetent to some people and knows nothing, despite the scrap with the White Walkers and the Night King, and the battle with the Wildlings at the Wall.  I think Jon hate is blinding some folks.  A few things I forgot to mention last night...

I loved the scene between Dany and Tyrion.  I liked how she sat down on the steps beside him and they just talked like regular people.  Tyrion is at his best, IMO, when he's revealing some truth about himself.  I adore that he believes in Dany and her cause; I adore that she respects him, his intelligence and his loyalty.  I teared up when she presented him with the pin and made him Hand of the Queen.  Tyrion was quite cute in that scene kneeling before her.  I can't say that I was too bothered by Daario getting the Friend Zone treatment.  Payback for rubbing Jorah's nose in it for so long.  I liked the gentle, yet firm way Dany let him down, but no matter, what Daario said, it was always going to be, "Boy, bye."  

I agree with the person who didn't care how Varys got back to Meeren as long as he was on the flagship with Dany, Tyrion and Missandei.  Grey Worm looked pretty badass on his ship, too.  Theon looks like he's going to jump out of his skin any second, but Yara is a total badass.  I liked that they showed the Dothraki horses below deck.  Wonder who is on poop patrol?  And I simply cannot gush any more than I already have about the dragons.  Fantastic CGI work.  I hope we get to see Uncle Benjen again, but it sounds like he has to stay behind the wall now.  Did anyone else come away with that thought?  I guess I'm glad Davos got to vent about Shireen, and the scene did give the actors the chance to shine, but I'm over Shireen and have been for a long time.  

I'm not sure why Bran thought it was so important to jack into a weirwood tree in the middle of nowhere, but Bran doesn't make a lot of sense to me right now anyway, and at least now everyone knows R+L=J (even those of us who really didn't want that to pass).  Whatever his purpose is, I wish they'd get on with it because I'm tired of him.  Also, D&D, find some way for him to be mobile that doesn't require Meera to drag his ass all over the place.  Lady Olenna cracked me up putting the sand snakes in their places, but as usual Dorne is always...why?  I may have been the only person surprised that the serving girl turned out to be Arya, I thought her eyeing Jamie was odd before the reveal.  Speaking of Jamie, he seems dissatisfied (residual effects of seeing Brienne again?), but boy, did I get a good laugh after he threw some shade at Walder.  I'm glad that old coot is dead, he was disgusting.  And finally, Cersei looked deranged sitting on the IT, just flat out batshit crazy.  The citizens of KL should leave now.  I am glad to be rid of the HS and his minions, but as usual, Cersei went to an extreme, proving (once again) that she's the bitch who doesn't care about anything except getting revenge and having power...she practically danced on Tommen's body to get there.  She's in for the shock of her life and I can't wait.  

Edited July 2, 2016 by taurusrose

[snowblossom2]

Can someone explain why Bran is going to the Wall? For winter/Night's King to come, they have to cross the wall, which means Bran has to cross it and break the magic. But shouldn't Bran think that he should stay away from the wall for precisely that reason - so as not to break the magic and do to the south of the wall what he accidentally did to the 3ER's hideout BC of the Night King's mark? I want to know Bran's logic, not what has to happen for the story to move forward

[Pogojoco]

15 minutes ago, snowblossom2 said:

Can someone explain why Bran is going to the Wall? For winter/Night's King to come, they have to cross the wall, which means Bran has to cross it and break the magic. But shouldn't Bran think that he should stay away from the wall for precisely that reason - so as not to break the magic and do to the south of the wall what he accidentally did to the 3ER's hideout BC of the Night King's mark? I want to know Bran's logic, not what has to happen for the story to move forward

He might be going to Castle Black- not knowing Jon isn't there anymore. He can hang out near the Wall and not pass the Wall (if that is even a thing he can't do.) He can hang out with Dolorous Edd. Meera can send a raven to her father and Bran can send one to Winterfell. It's most definitely safer than the wilderness.

 

Also, just generally, Jamie isn't heir to Casterly Rock. He's Kingsguard, which basically has the same vows as Night's Watch. Tyrion's been the heir for a while. Also, I doubt Jamie survives, but I completely see Tyrion living in both show and book. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Pogojoco

[Alapaki]

16 minutes ago, snowblossom2 said:

I doubt she knew he was down there

I think she was in the scene lingering around when Jaime was there.  It's possible she overheard Walder bragging to Jaime about having Edmure back in a cell.  

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Can someone explain why Bran is going to the Wall? For winter/Night's King to come, they have to cross the wall, which means Bran has to cross it and break the magic. But shouldn't Bran think that he should stay away from the wall for precisely that reason - so as not to break the magic and do to the south of the wall what he accidentally did to the 3ER's hideout BC of the Night King's mark? I want to know Bran's logic, not what has to happen for the story to move forward

I have to think that if Bran going south of the Wall created an opening for the Night King to follow, then the 3ER would've informed Bran of that when he was hastily "downloading" information as the Night King approached the Tree.  That, or at least communicated that to Benjen.  Either way, I'd think that someone would've told Bran "whatever you do, stay on this side of the Wall!".

[Dev F]

6 hours ago, Gertrude said:

So use Ellaria as the introduction to Dorne, hell even have her keep her same role of vengeance incarnate. Have her plot with the Snakes and Arianne (yes, god-damned Arianne) or not - hell, Ellaria could be dropped once the other women are introduced. Let the Sand Snakes keep their own personalities and viewpoints instead of a three-headed hydra who are indistinguishable (except for the one who has a spectacular rack). Do the Queenmaker plot, have it go wrong to the extent that Myrcella is killed rather than maimed. Doran has to serve up a sacrificial goat to appease Jaime (who, I don't know, comes down as an ambassador instead of part of the Cooper and Darnell comedy duo). Maybe Jaime is with Hotah when they follow and find the group, maybe no one kills Myrcella, but she is thrown from her horse ... something that makes it hard to blame anyone specifically. Jaime leaves on bad terms, Trystane is heartbroken, Doran is nervous.

Then this season we get Doran telling Arianne about Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood. They could even keep the part about Arianne being betrothed to Viserys but having to switch plans, revealing they were in league with Illyrio/Varys the whole time.

Why is this less compelling and less riddled with WTF? than 'Sand Snakes - wooo hoooo!'?

Hell, even after they fucked up the Dorne storyline last season, there was no reason to double down on it this year. This season's Dorne arc was essentially two scenes: 1. Put Dorne into a holding pattern. 2. Bring Dorne back as Dany's ally. Those two scenes could just as easily have consisted of 1. Doran showing that he's not a passive milquetoast by responding to Ellaria's betrayal by killing her, and 2. Doran meeting with Olenna and Varys and revealing that he's been playing a long game of vengeance all along and is down for the Targaryen restoration.

I can only assume that they went the way they did instead out of a desire to create, like, the Grand Alliance of Lady Power. But the female empowerment in Dorne is so perfunctory and unpersuasive -- they're hot! and they kill the bad men and take over! and all the other men are cool with that somehow! -- that it ends up cheapening the notion rather than advancing it.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Dev F

[Pogojoco]

Also, continuing on Dorne, I never quite got the idea of cutting Arianne and putting in pointless Sand Snakes. Cut three down to one, make her a real, fleshed out character and have her called Arianne. She doesn't have to be book Arienne, but what they did was just so dumb. Probably the dumbest thing they've done in six seasons of this show. 

It is interesting that it's basically a bunch of women in power vs Cersei- Sand Snakes/Elaria, Danaerys, Lady Olenna. Throw in Sansa, and it's all girls fighting it out and Jon Snow vs the Night King. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Pogojoco

[ToniG]

3 hours ago, Misplaced said:

 

Tommen -- that was SO well done -- his rapid steps away from the window and back again reminded me of something but I can't put my finger on it.  Double points for Cersei's level of crazy that if she had gone to her son instead of having Torture Time with the Septa, Tommen might have lived.  There must be something meaningful in Cersei insisting he be burned: I wondered if it was because Tommen's lovely blond head was a stack of mush, whereas Joffrey and Myrcella were unblemished and beautiful in death.  

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Martin has said the ending would be "bittersweet" -- I wonder if the bittersweet ending = Jon never finding out his true parentage.  Would be very George, particularly if Jon ends up King in the North "in spite of" being a bastard.  

 

Since Joffrey and Myrcella were buried in the sept, their remains are ash now. She asked for his ashes to be put where the sept was, so he would be with his siblings.

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Yes, I took Sansa's smile when Jon was declared to be KitN to be genuinely happy for him, and her expression changes to worry when she gets a glimpse of the bared concealed rage in Littlefinger's expression. She will have to make sure her Noble "fool" of a brother/cousin doesn't make the same mistake that Ned did in regard to trusting Littlefinger. 

I wonder if Littlefinger will try to sabotage Jon by disclosing his true parentage. That would be devasting for Jon, knowing that the man he know as Father is really his uncle, and the implication that he is not just a bastard Stark on his mother's side, but a presumed product of rape. Note: I don't believe that Lyanna was raped, and Jon may be a true born son of Rhaegar in the end, but it still makes Jon last in line behind Bran, Sansa and Arya taken strictly by rules of succession. 

I'm guessing you missed the part where Jon asked Sansa if she trusted LF and she said only a fool would.  And in the same conversation, Jon told Sansa they had to trust each other because they had a lot of enemies and couldn't be fighting amongst themselves.  So, I don't think Sansa has to make sure of anything. Jon is not stupid.  I don't believe he's learned nothing from his experiences this year.  What does LF know about Jon's true parentage?  I'm thinking nothing.

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

When I read the books I was pretty flabbergasted by how obvious Martin made it from the first books that a) Ned had a secret b) it was about his sister and making a promise to her c) he thought about it obsessively but never gave the alleged woman he supposedly screwed even one thought.  Therefore, kind of obvious that Jon wasn't his kid considering Ned barely ever had a chapter without thinking about the "Promise me, Ned..."   

The way that scene was played though, I don't think Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly in this version of the story because there's zero confessional  vibe to that scene. 

 

Well, it was pretty obvious on the show, too. The very first conversation between Ned and Robert, my friend burst out, "Jon Snow is HER son." And she was right. I noticed the same give-away you did, when I finally read the books--not one thought about a mistress or girlfriend or lost love in Ned's head, EVER, but "promise me, Ned," got lots of attention all these years later. The obvious conclusion was that Ned was pondering his choice to keep that promise.

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So most of this episode seemed to be as much about contract renewals as anything else.  Hehe, way to thin the cast herd.  "Daario, stay.  Bye!"  *Most of the cast of King's Landing blows the fuck up, Big Bird wasn't much of a player in the long run anyway, thus ends the most insulting LGBTQ story of modern TV and that TV trope list just got longer*

I've seen worse. I thought Loras's "repentance" was more about wanting his torture to be over, than it was about any real belief in his own "depravity." The idea that he might have been sincere is simply too horrible for me to contemplate. It infuriates me that he cannot get revenge on Cersei, and that that is the actual end of the one major gay male character. I sort of wanted Loras to be the Valonquar. Now that he can't I'm sort of bereft. I'd hoped for more out of his storyline, but I guess he always was chiefly there as one more reason to really, really hate Cersei.

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, lmsweb said:

I am looking forward to seeing Tyrion find out about Jon next season, both his parentage and his new status. Although they haven't had a scene together since the beginning of the series, I thought they had great chemistry and they established that Jon and Tyrion had become friends before Tyrion left the wall. That link could no doubt come in helpful once Dany arrives.

Agreed, but: Jon & Tyrion's nascent friendship was built before Tyrion's family became responsible for wiping out 1/2 of Jon's. Even knowing the Imp killed Tywin, may not be enough, itself, for Jon to trust Tyrion. Sansa's opinion will be interesting.

[screamin]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm not sure how aware he was that Cersei did it, though -- we see the Mountain forcing him to stay in his room as proof that Cersei set it up and was keeping him safe, but was he sophisticated enough to realize that? Might he have thought that Cersei didn't want him to see her go on trial, so he thought Cersei was in the sept, too, when it blew up?

Tommen must've known Cersei was still alive. At the beginning of his last scene we see him with an ordinary servant who says something like "...I'm sorry, Your Grace," presumably after confirming that Margaery, the HS, and everyone else in the Sept was dead. That servant no doubt also knew and informed him that Cersei had never left the Keep that day, and was too busy with a relaxing session in the torture chamber to debrief Tommen herself. With that and Frankengregor keeping him in his chamber, he must've realized Cersei had engineered the atrocity, and he couldn't live with that.

[Hecate7]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

Tommen must've known Cersei was still alive. At the beginning of his last scene we see him with an ordinary servant who says something like "...I'm sorry, Your Grace," presumably after confirming that Margaery, the HS, and everyone else in the Sept was dead. That servant no doubt also knew and informed him that Cersei had never left the Keep that day, and was too busy with a relaxing session in the torture chamber to debrief Tommen herself. With that and Frankengregor keeping him in his chamber, he must've realized Cersei had engineered the atrocity, and he couldn't live with that.

I think Tommen realized everything, from just the Mountain not letting him attend the trial, and then looking out his window and seeing the devastation. Setting the Mountain there proved Cersei's foreknowledge and responsibility for the tragedy. Her willingness to commit the crime, meant that she had also committed all of the others, and was willing to go to those lengths to avoid trial.

He might have tried to go on in spite of what he knew, though, had Margaery survived. He would have lived for her, despite realizing all of the implications of Cersei's actions. Ser Pounce would never have allowed this to happen.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Hecate7

[MarySNJ]

21 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I'm guessing you missed the part where Jon asked Sansa if she trusted LF and she said only a fool would.  And in the same conversation, Jon told Sansa they had to trust each other because they had a lot of enemies and couldn't be fighting amongst themselves.  So, I don't think Sansa has to make sure of anything. Jon is not stupid.  I don't believe he's learned nothing from his experiences this year.  What does LF know about Jon's true parentage?  I'm thinking nothing.

Well, I watched the interview with Sophie Turner in which she says Sansa is frustrated about not getting credit for her contributions to the victory and that she thinks Jon is "naive". In the same video, Kit Harington says that Jon makes the mistake of not listening to Sansa and that could end up being a problem for him... So yes I do think he could be a bit naive about the political game as played by Littlefinger, which doesn't make him stupid.  Littlefinger probably has Jon marked down as Ned Jr. when it comes to being an honorable fool. I hope Jon takes what Sansa told him to heart and doesn't let his guard down. 

[TaurusRose]

7 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

And I agree, the Jon Snow as deserter of the Night's Watch stuff is being weirdly glossed over. I get the King in the North stuff, just for his fighting, but they are just sort of going a long with it. I think Ramsey's the only one to have mentioned it in their pre-battle dick measuring.

I don't consider Jon a deserter of the Night's Watch.  His oath was to stand watch until his death.  He fucking died.  Obligation met.  Resurrection doesn't erase that fact.  Plus I wouldn't want to stay there either when there was only a handful of men he could truly trust.  

Well, I watched the interview with Sophie Turner in which she says Sansa is frustrated about not getting credit for her contributions to the victory and that she thinks Jon is "naive". In the same video, Kit Harington says that Jon makes the mistake of not listening to Sansa and that could end up being a problem for him...

Yes, I saw those interviews as well, but they don't trump what I see on the screen or how the scene plays out.  Sansa was clearly over her frustration in TWoW and Jon acknowledged her contributions and apologized for not listening to her.  So...those interviews aren't keeping pace with what the characters are doing.  .

Edited June 28, 2016 by taurusrose

[Pogojoco]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I don't consider Jon a deserter of the Night's Watch.  His oath was to stand watch until his death.  He fucking died.  Obligation met.  Resurrection doesn't erase that fact.  Plus I wouldn't want to stay there either when there was only a handful of men he could truly trust.  

Oh, I don't consider him deserting. But not everyone in Westeros knows he rose from the dead. Tormund, Melisandre, Davos saw the corpse and  the ritual. The Night's Watch knows it, and I think Jon told Sansa, who told Brienne. But who else? They said nothing to Ramsey about it when he brought up "forgiving" Jon for breaking his vows. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Pogojoco

[Auroraborealus]

As far as cousins marrying in Westeros goes, I don't think it is seen as taboo. When Sansa first showed up at the Eyrie, Lysa commiserated with her about being forced to marry Tyrion and then threw out quite casually that once Tyrion was dead, Sansa would be free to marry Sweet Robin. Sansa definitely wasn't thrilled at the prospect of another forced marriage to a snotty nosed, breastfeeding 10 year old but I never got the "ewww, we're cousins" vibe then or later when Robin told her once they were married they could throw people they didn't like out the moon door.  

Of course, being raised as siblings definitely ups the ick factor but she and Jon were never close growing up anyway. 

[screamin]

7 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I don't consider Jon a deserter of the Night's Watch.  His oath was to stand watch until his death.  He fucking died.  Obligation met.  Resurrection doesn't erase that fact.

Granted. But how many people in the North who didn't witness Jon die would believe that he died but he got better, so now his NW oath is void? Those people would consider Jon a deserter.

On the other hand, poor old Aemon did, in his time, debate leaving the wall to avenge his slaughtered family. If he considered the prospect at all, it was because it was not unthinkable, and he must've had some prospect of being able to muster influence on his family's behalf to avenge them, instead of being beheaded as a deserter by anyone he appealed to. So probably there are plenty of people willing to overlook deserting if there's reason enough to do so.

[nenya]

20 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Am I the only one who when watching Ned and Lyanna's deathbed scene thought of Fantine's deathbed scene with Jean Valjean in Les Miserables? Just me, then? Right.

Not that scene, but when Jon was standing in front of the table at Winterfell, I totally had "Empty Chairs and Empty Tables" running through my head. Seemed quite apt as well!

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I want to see Dany's reaction to a living blood relative.  I just don't think she will see him as her enemy.  

I'm kind of hoping that when Jon and Dany finally meet, he will have more important things to do than court a Queen (politically or romantically) because the Northmen and their allies will be up to their eyeballs in White Walkers and wights. If she wants to lend a dragon or three to the effort to save the whole of the Seven Kingdoms from certain death, I'm sure he'll be happy for the help. 

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, slf said:

Why? For the most obvious and simple of reasons: Sansa is the legitimate heir of Eddard Stark. Lyanna commands power only through her bloodline. She's fought and won no battles. She's completely inexperienced and is in fact a child. But she is a legitimate Mormont. And refusing to support Ned's heir and selecting his illegitimate son instead is essentially treason. 

Jon has repeatedly fucked up as a leader, and did so just last episode. Sansa is the one who saved the day. Sansa is the heir. Jon is a bastard. The show was all about Jon the Bastard - wear it like armor, blah blah blah - when they got to wax poetic about Jon. Now they want to handwave his illegitimacy because it isn't convenient? Jon is usurping his sister. He's no more legally a King than Cersei is a Queen.

What is with this show slandering the North? In the books the Northmen and Northwomen are busting ass from the point Ned gets arrested. They're battling the Ironborn and picking off the Freys left and right. They don't have to be rallied into action by a 10 year old. Hell, Not!Arya is one of the major rallying points for the Northmen. No way in hell do the Northmen take a look at Ned Stark's daughter and pass.

That whole storyline was bonkers.

Lyanna Mormont maybe be  completly inexperienced yet she is the ruler of House Mormont, and, sorry,  but House Mormont has fought with Jon and Sansa against the Boltons and House Mormont has won the battle along them. As the ruler of her House she decides who she supports or not, even if she is a child because this is how it works - see Tommen, Robynn. Would you say that had Rickon lived he would still be a child and had no saying about Winterfell? 

She is entittled to chose whoever she wants as King even if means treason, but does it means treason, really? You mean, the same kind of treason  Ned Stark commited when he and Robert Baraethon fought against Aerys Targaryen? Or the same treason Olenna commited killing Joffrey? Or the same treason Robb commited when he married Talisa instead of one of the Frey girls? Or the same treason when Jamie killed the Mad King? Or the same treason when Catelyn let Jamie go? Or the same treason Cersei commited when she passed three bastards as the rightfully heirs of the Iron Throne? Don't the Lords already commited treason when they refused to support the remaining Starks in their claim to take Winterfell back?

Jon's illegitmacy has alway been used to stress over and over and over and over that being a bastard says nothing about your honor or value, and in this show it has been all but spelled in red subtittles on the screen that Jon Snow is a true Stark, as true as the other Stark children. I don't see how anyone can watch GoT - particularly Jon becoming a leader and Robb being killed - and not foreshadow that it was obvious that Jon Snow would rule the North someday in some capacity for some time.

Jon is not usurping anything from his sister. He told Sansa she was the Lady of Winterfall, he told her she should get her parents' bedroom. And she said she didn't want it, that he should take it and that he was a Stark. She has been 'legitimizing' him all long  and has said more than once 'you are a bastard and I'm a girl', hence saying that  they have the same weight. Jon never wanted to be King of the North or Lord of Winterfell and when a room full of North lords decided he was going to be king he was the most surprised there with the notable exception of Littlefinger. What was he supposed to do? That scene let zero space to say 'no, sorry, I preffer to be a general or whatever, crown my sister, this same one here who is not saying anything.'

I whole hearted agree that they butched the North plot in the show, but on the show it made perfectly sense that they had to be rallied in action by someone else, in this case, yes, a 10 year old girl. If in the books it comes up to a point where they have to be rallied into an specific ction by someone else, be it a 10 year old or not, so what? Just because you are noble, decent, good doesn't mean they won't find themselves in a situation where they need to be pushed. The problem with the North story in the show is not Lyanna Marmont pledging her alliance to the one she sees as the heir of the Stark House and the other North Lords realizing the same, but everything else that lead to that moment, namely the North not remembering, Jon and Sansa being written as hopeless underdogs, the North never fighting sociopath Ramsay Bolton, the North not being the North. One could argue that crowning Jon is what makes the North become the North again.

The Northmen take a look at Ned Stark's daughter and pass exactly because they see Ned Stark's daughter - and not Tyrion Lannister's wife or Ramsay Bolton's wife -, while next to her they see Ned Stark's son - and not Ned Stark's bastard. It is very simple like that.

ETA: As far as Jon fucking up being a leader and Sansa saving the day (or allowing a lot of people to die because she didn't tell Jon the Valle army was coming), as I said in a previous post, Jon won the battle. This is all the North Lords see. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Raachel2008

[Macbeth]

I know a lot of people were very happy to finally have R+L=J confirmed, but I have no patience with Bran's visions at this point  Not since one of his visions allowed the Night Prince to put his hand on him and break the magic of the tree.  The fact that the 3er and the Children of the Forest did not warn him is telling.

The visions are just distractions that don't allow Bran to understand who he truly is. He is the Westeros version of a suitcase nuclear bomb trying to get through customs (the Wall).

I was expecting the Wall to fall in the finale, but it really hadn't been established on the show that the Wall has serious magic protecting it so that scene was necessary to put the dominoes in place.  Also the Wall falling would have needed a significant amount of air time that wasn't available in the finale to do it justice.

I was really surprised at how sad I was to see Daario go.  I had been spoiled for Margery's death.  When Michael Huisman was cast to play Daario - I had seen him on Treme and Nashville and I was like "but he's an emo type of guy."  He did quite well.  I guess Dany is being set up for Jon, but she really needed someone on her council who could lead the Dothraki.  That's not an army that you can just blend with another army.  But then Jorah is still alive....

[MarySNJ]

45 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I don't consider Jon a deserter of the Night's Watch.  His oath was to stand watch until his death.  He fucking died.  Obligation met.  Resurrection doesn't erase that fact.  Plus I wouldn't want to stay there either when there was only a handful of men he could truly trust.  

 

 

Yes, I saw those interviews as well, but they don't trump what I see on the screen or how the scene plays out.  Sansa was clearly over her frustration in TWoW and Jon acknowledged her contributions and apologized for not listening to her.  So...those interviews aren't keeping pace with what the characters are doing.  .

I agree on both counts. Whatever the Northern Lords may have heard about Jon as LC, they don't seem to care that he is a bastard or quit the Night's Watch. Even if they don't know about the resurrection it seems they're willing to bend the rules in his case. Must needs, as they like to say. 

I also agree what the actors and D&D are telling us is different than they have shown us. It's just they keep emphasizing that this is what they intend; conflict and miscommunication. I would prefer that Jon and Sansa maintain a trusting relationship ruling the North together, and if he's the one who leads the war against the WW, let her be the power behind the throne which would probably suit them both.  

[jeansheridan]

I don't think Cercei looked crazy in the end, which is why she is very scary.  I think she was in her full faculties and probably being her "best" self.  She was always more of a heavy in the books than on the show.  I find Lena charming and that charm comes through on screen.  But she was as evil as Ramsey Bolton in this episode.  And don't forget she is the daughter of a man who let his soldiers rape his son's first wife.  Tywin was a monster too.  He hid it better and was smoother, but he could be cruel just to be cruel.  Stripping his father's mistress and parading her just because he was offended by her existence, treating Tyrion's first love worse than dirt, arranging the Red Wedding (which even Tyrion admitted was a smart move), willing to put his son on trial when he knew deep down Tyrion didn't poison Joffrey.  That's Cercei's beloved father.  

I was in awe of the scale of her destruction.  She was willing to go there.  Just like Arya was willing to go there to get Frey.  I don't especially like either woman for her actions.  And Cercei's little personal cruelty to the nun was her Ramsey Bolton pouring-salt-on-open wounds moment.  

And I kind of love Jaime for not quite having the stomach to do what she did.  He's still human.  He still has some perspective and a sense of propriety.  You don't burn down a city block to get one man (although in fairness she also got the bulk of her local enemies, so a bargain for her).  Jaime has only been a hero once on this show when he rescued Brienne and maybe when he sent Brienne after Sansa.  And maybe when he freed Tyrion.  Okay, he's had a few good moments. 

[Ruby Gillis]

6 hours ago, Arnella said:

Why would she think that after having a pregnancy already.  The witch only demanded one life for Drogo.  It's more likely Dario is sterile.

Didn't the witch also tell her that Dany becoming pregnant was as likely as Drogo coming back to life?  Maybe Mel can work some magic on her.  Otherwise, Dany becoming queen seems pointless.

[Hecate7]

59 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

She is entittled to chose whoever she wants as King even if means treason, but does it means treason, really? You mean, the same kind of treason  Ned Stark commited when he and Robert Baraethon fought against Aerys Targaryen? Or the same treason Olenna commited killing Joffrey? Or the same treason Robb commited when he married Talisa instead of one of the Frey girls? Or the same treason when Jamie killed the Mad King? Or the same treason when Catelyn let Jamie go? Or the same treason Cersei commited when she passed three bastards as the rightfully heirs of the Iron Throne? Don't the Lords already commited treason when they refused to support the remaining Starks in their claim to take Winterfell back?

 

Actually, no. You don't have the right to choose your king. That is why, historically, people have either opted out of monarchies, or developed more representational government that reduced the king's power to a figurehead. The King is born to it.

In this story there is magic backing the king up, as there was supposed to be IRL. Have you noticed that everyone who commits treason in this story is punished for it, whether or not it's discovered? Even the Tyrells, who dispatched a thoroughly horrible king and chose a different one, died later in much the way they'd have died had they been caught.

Ned and Robert were OK when they seized the throne--they did it by the rules. But Ned committed treason against Robert by hiding Jon Snow. He died for treason--just not the right one. Cat, Robb, the Tyrells (except Olenna, for whom a worse punishment is losing her posterity), Theon Greyjoy--everyone who tries to get away with treason gets it in the end. All three of Cersei's children died, all of Olenna's family, and the two of them will also die, probably in some way resembling the punishment they each evaded.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Hecate7

[Gertrude]

Regarding the King in the North - I said above that it bothered me a little that Lady Mormont didn't consider Sansa but I also realize why there are reasons why the Lords would prefer Jon over Sansa. I think I've pinpointed the reason it bothers me. It's that everyone completely dismissed Sansa who was sitting right there. If even one of them would have made some gesture to recognize Sansa as the true born heir or had a moment of conflict it would have erased that small complaint. Hell, even just recognize that it should be Sansa's by law, but we need strength right now. I would have also liked Sansa to speak up at that point to give her support to Jon instead of just a smile and her earlier (private) support. It would have just cemented the fact that the North was united instead of the Lords insulting Sansa and being oblivious to the fact. The writers really go out of their way to make Sansa's motives and inner thoughts enigmatic.

And again, for me it was a little thing and I get it. The emotion was there and I've always said power lies where men think it lies - whether through popular support or brute force. Jon has that support for sure.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Gertrude

[ToniG]

17 minutes ago, Ruby Gillis said:

Didn't the witch also tell her that Dany becoming pregnant was as likely as Drogo coming back to life?  Maybe Mel can work some magic on her.  Otherwise, Dany becoming queen seems pointless.

Yes:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

[slf]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Lyanna Mormont maybe be  completly inexperienced yet she is the ruler of House Mormont, and, sorry,  but House Mormont has fought with Jon and Sansa against the Boltons and House Mormont has won the battle along them. As the ruler of her House she decides who she supports or not, even if she is a child because this is how it works - see Tommen, Robynn. Would you say that had Rickon lived he would still be a child and had no saying about Winterfell? 

You completely missed my point. Sansa's lack of battle experience was being used against her yet Lyanna has none either. As you pointed out, Lyanna wields power because of her bloodline. She's her father's legitimate daughter ergo she's the acting power right now. Regardless. If Rickon were alive right now he would officially be the King, depending on his age, or his sister would have to rule as Regent until he came of age. But he would be Ned's heir, so that would be that.

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

She is entittled to chose whoever she wants as King even if means treason, but does it means treason, really? You mean, the same kind of treason  Ned Stark commited when he and Robert Baraethon fought against Aerys Targaryen? Or the same treason Olenna commited killing Joffrey? Or the same treason Robb commited when he married Talisa instead of one of the Frey girls? Or the same treason when Jamie killed the Mad King? Or the same treason when Catelyn let Jamie go? Or the same treason Cersei commited when she passed three bastards as the rightfully heirs of the Iron Throne? Don't the Lords already commited treason when they refused to support the remaining Starks in their claim to take Winterfell back?

Um. Robert's Rebellion wasn't treason. Aerys broke faith with the Lord's Paramount so they were no longer bound to serve him. He executed a Lord's Paramount and his son illegally. Olenna knew Joffrey wasn't a Baratheon, which was clearly stated in the series; the Tyrells knew through Renly that Joffrey was a Lannister bastard. They did not Kingslayer, and technically did not kin slay either. No treason there. Robb did not commit treason when he married Talisa, I'm not sure how they could even be considered treason. He broke a promise, yes. But that is not treason. The other instances are treason but I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, Lyanna would be committing treason by supporting the claim of someone other than Ned Stark's legitimate heir as her house is sworn to House Stark. Ergo: treason. 

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Jon's illegitmacy has alway been used to stress over and over and over and over that being a bastard says nothing about your honor or value, and in this show it has been all but spelled in red subtittles on the screen that Jon Snow is a true Stark, as true as the other Stark children. I don't see how anyone can watch GoT - particularly Jon becoming a leader and Robb being killed - and not foreshadow that it was obvious that Jon Snow would rule the North someday in some capacity for some time.

Jon is not usurping anything from his sister. He told Sansa she was the Lady of Winterfall, he told her she should get her parents' bedroom. And she said she didn't want it, that he should take it and that he was a Stark. She has been 'legitimizing' him all long  and has said more than once 'you are a bastard and I'm a girl', hence saying that  they have the same weight. Jon never wanted to be King of the North or Lord of Winterfell and when a room full of North lords decided he was going to be king he was the most surprised there with the notable exception of Littlefinger. What was he supposed to do? That scene let zero space to say 'no, sorry, I preffer to be a general or whatever, crown my sister, this same one here who is not saying anything.'

Yes, I understand what they're saying re: Jon's status as a bastard. What I'm saying is that his status as a bastard is a very real thing in a world that created that status exactly because of this very situation. Being a bastard doesn't matter in a world without nobility and aristocracy, without inheritance. It doesn't stop being irrelevant because they want it to be.

It doesn't matter what Jon said or Sansa said because they aren't people. They are fictional characters saying and doing whatever D&D want them to say and do. And it's bullshit. Having Jon make overtures like this so the fandom will accept the decision is bullshit, though seems to be working. Jon is not legitimate. He did not have to accept the Kingship. He could have said, "No, Winterfell is my sister's birthright." Just like he did in the book. He absolutely could have done that. If he couldn't have done that then him being chosen King meant nothing anyway because they didn't really respect his opinion.

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I whole hearted agree that they butched the North plot in the show, but on the show it made perfectly sense that they had to be rallied in action by someone else, in this case, yes, a 10 year old girl. If in the books it comes up to a point where they have to be rallied into an specific ction by someone else, be it a 10 year old or not, so what? Just because you are noble, decent, good doesn't mean they won't find themselves in a situation where they need to be pushed. The problem with the North story in the show is not Lyanna Marmont pledging her alliance to the one she sees as the heir of the Stark House and the other North Lords realizing the same, but everything else that lead to that moment, namely the North not remembering, Jon and Sansa being written as hopeless underdogs, the North never fighting sociopath Ramsay Bolton, the North not being the North. One could argue that crowning Jon is what makes the North become the North again.

The Northmen take a look at Ned Stark's daughter and pass exactly because they see Ned Stark's daughter - and not Tyrion Lannister's wife or Ramsay Bolton's wife -, while next to her they see Ned Stark's son - and not Ned Stark's bastard. It is very simple like that.

ETA: As far as Jon fucking up being a leader and Sansa saving the day (or allowing a lot of people to die because she didn't tell Jon the Valle army was coming), as I said in a previous post, Jon won the battle. This is all the North Lords see. 

On the show it "made perfect sense" in a storyline that was botched and idiotic. That's not saying much. 

Right, but passing on Ned Stark's daughter makes no sense, and no one is actually explaining how it does. This is literally idiotic based on how their government functions, how all of them choose to run their houses (I'm guessing we aren't about to see every Snow in the North legitimized). There's nothing simple about this and I'm not sure if you want me to applaud misogyny and the fact that they didn't hold being a hostage forced into a marriage against Sansa.

This is dumb. It's dumbly written. It's a fast way of getting Jon where they think he needs to be.

Edited June 28, 2016 by slf

[lmsweb]

Even though Sansa is a Stark, is she not technically now Lady Bolton, even with the death of Ramsay? I mean, Cat didn't suddenly become Lady Tully again when Ned died. Lysa was still Lady Aryn following Jon's death. And that's taking out of the muddlement the fact that Sansa is/was technically also Lady Lannister. The show seems to go back and forth on this. Cersei got away with using Cersei Lannister after the death of Robert (even Tommen referred to her as Cersie Lannister in the throne room). And Margery was still referred to as Margery Tyrell before she was married to Tommen, despite having been a Baratheon already twice before.
And when Lady Mormont marries someday, is that the end of the Mormont name? Does she have to take the name of whoever she ends up marrying?

I need more wine to figure this out.

[slf]

4 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

Even though Sansa is a Stark, is she not technically now Lady Bolton, even with the death of Ramsay? I mean, Cat didn't suddenly become Lady Tully again when Ned died. Lysa was still Lady Aryn following Jon's death. And that's taking out of the muddlement the fact that Sansa is/was technically also Lady Lannister. The show seems to go back and forth on this. Cersei got away with using Cersei Lannister after the death of Robert (even Tommen referred to her as Cersie Lannister in the throne room). And Margery was still referred to as Margery Tyrell before she was married to Tommen, despite having been a Baratheon already twice before.
And when Lady Mormont marries someday, is that the end of the Mormont name? Does she have to take the name of whoever she ends up marrying?

I need more wine to figure this out.

No, she's no longer Lady Bolton. Or at least she shouldn't be. Ramsay died without an heir and she was forced into the marriage. She's no longer a Bolton and IIRC her marriage to Tyrion was absolved.

[kittykat]

Today's random thought

I was thinking about the bakery that makes a cake for whomever gets killed off and I thought to myself.

That bakery is gonna need a lot of cakes.

[Dev F]

35 minutes ago, ToniG said:

Yes:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

That's in the book. In the show, the "womb" part is omitted. Subsequently the show has been weirdly noncommittal about whether Dany can still have children, making it seem more like she's just decided she won't have any more children.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Dev F

[heisey]

3 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

Also, just generally, Jamie isn't heir to Casterly Rock. He's Kingsguard, which basically has the same vows as Night's Watch. Tyrion's been the heir for a while. Also, I doubt Jamie survives, but I completely see Tyrion living in both show and book. 

Tommen fired Jaime from the Kingsguard.  Wouldn't that release him from his vows and allow him to be the heir to Casterly Rock?

[morgankobi]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Yes, I saw those interviews as well, but they don't trump what I see on the screen or how the scene plays out.  Sansa was clearly over her frustration in TWoW and Jon acknowledged her contributions and apologized for not listening to her.  So...those interviews aren't keeping pace with what the characters are doing.  .

You know, they did interviews for more than one episode at a time. The quotes from both Kit and Sophie actually make more sense if they were actually talking about "Battle of the Bastards" than the finale. I think this may be more of an editing thing, especially as I don't think they had much (or any) knowledge of Season 7 story lines those many months ago.

Edited June 28, 2016 by morgankobi
changed character names to actor names

[mac123x]

7 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

I agree that scene wasn't really earned in this episode because -- and this is no fault of the young actor, he was punching way above his weight in terms of emotional knowledge and understaning he'd need to convey with no dialogue to help him -- the performance was a bit vacant, because that's too much for a 16-year-old actor to bring to emotional life without a word, "My everything, my life, my faith, my kingdom and all I've got left is my mother....who I was going to allow to die and she knows it....is gone.  Bereft, abandoned and entirely alone, I've come to the end of me" would be a steep hill for an adult, trained actor to hike.  Kid couldn't do it and I completely get why.  

I put some blame on the director.  The construction of that scene was laughable (in fact, I did laugh, which I don't think they were going for).  Tommen stares out the window.  Tommen slowly removes his crown.  Tommen exits stage left.  The camera doesn't move.  Tommen returns and promptly exits stage window.  No hesitation

[Sarcastica]

7 hours ago, Grashka said:

Jon Snow! If you don't propose to Lyanna Mormont after 7 or 8 years- if she will have you! - then you are a bloody fool.

Hell, I am already mentally picturing their wedding. It's beautiful by the way....

[slf]

14 minutes ago, heisey said:

Tommen fired Jaime from the Kingsguard.  Wouldn't that release him from his vows and allow him to be the heir to Casterly Rock?

Jamie being released from the Kingsguard would make him heir to Casterly Rock again. I haven't watched every episode from the past two seasons so I have no idea if that happened, lol, but if it did then, yes, he's heir. Tyrion is the youngest child and can't be heir because he lost his trial.

[heisey]

11 minutes ago, slf said:

Jamie being released from the Kingsguard would make him heir to Casterly Rock again. I haven't watched every episode from the past two seasons so I have no idea if that happened, lol, but if it did then, yes, he's heir. Tyrion is the youngest child and can't be heir because he lost his trial.

Yes, it happened. Tommen fired him in episode 6.06.