S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Not necessarily.  We saw that woman in the room with Ned, Lyanna and baby Jon (the show might call her Wylla, or not; so far she's unnamed).  She could have met LF later in life and told him.

Just to clarify there were two woman in the room , first woman got Jon and handed him to the second, who handed him to Ned, also the v version may not do the Howland Reed bit, he didn't follow Ned into the tower and he wasn't in the scene.

[WearyTraveler]

7 hours ago, screamin said:

I mean, he was an even younger teenager than the others (like, fourteen?) with low rank and no money or power of his own yet, so I can't imagine him having yet managed to amass a network of spies to feed him information at Harrenhal, which wasn't where he lived...

People gossip, and half the time the nobles don't know the half of it, which is why Varys has little birds and disguises himself and LF has brothels and other assorted spies. Knowledge is power, after all.

When the nobles find out that the gossip is against them, then they manipulate the circumstances to change all that (see a play called "The Booldy Hand", currently showing around Braavos).  LF could have just gone to the inn and heard te gossip.  Or he could have walked around and casually talked to the servants of the Lords competing in the tournament and found out quite a lot ("oh yeah, his grace is totally smitten with that woman; he talks about her all the time", "my Lady Ellaria was very angry, she swore she would poison the she-wolf", and so on).  All he would need is some unassuming clothes and some charm and cunning.  All of which he can have.

 

5 hours ago, dizzyd said:

I've watched the finale 6 times now and each time enjoyed it tremendously, still awed by the high caliber of the production and how almost every character besides Jorah, Brienne, the Hound and Ghost were covered. The next 10 months are going to be awefully long and I'm going to feel a huge emptiness after S7 that I doubt will be easily filled by another show.

In all 6 viewings, I did not conclude that Lyanna told Ned her sons name and that it was something other than Jon, so I'm not sure why others think that's what was muted. I simply thought she told him he's Rhaegar's son and that Robert would kill him if he found out. She probably did name him after that vision ended and before she died and I think she named him Jon. Btw, where was Robert during her entire pregnancy, it didn't take 9 months to usurp the throne, did it? 

Since S1 I have always wondered if the end game would be anyone winning the throne or if it ended up as a relic in a ruin of the throne room like in the House of B and W vision, as in fire and ice will just cancel each other out and the whole game was for nought. 

It takes time to call the banners, have them come to you, go to other houses and ask them to call their banners, and then march your ass down all the way to KL, fighting Targaryen loyalists along the way.  During his rebellion, Robert and his army had to fight many battles, and for some of them they were separated (e.g. the Tullys had not joined them yet), he was wounded a couple of times and protected by the smallfolk, there was the battle of the bells, and the stepstones, and a bunch of others.  Robert was legendary, but yes, it took a long time to conquer the throne.

[Raachel2008]

8 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Just anybody could NOT kill Ilyn Payne, and certainly not anyone in the Stark family. Sansa won't--she's not going to cross his path. Bran can't, Rickon probably won't meet him, and Jon Snow has his hands full with other things. Ilyn Payne is such a good swordsman that Jaime Lannister respects his abilities, so unless Sansa poisons him (unlikely), it'll be Arya. He is formidable, and a sort of boss level swordfighting opponent for Arya. Brienne could kill him but at present has no reason to, The Hound is unlikely to have a reason, and so Arya is probably the one who'll do the job.

Why Arya would go back to King's Lading if she is already half her way  North? She knows were Ylyn Payne and Cersei are, yet she let Braavos and chose to head North. "A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell and I'm going home". The Twins just happen to be half her way, and Walder Frey was a pretty big name in her list. I really believe the show is pushing Arya towards meeting Sansa and Jon. Of course it will take ages - or not - but I don't see why or how they would kick her back to King's Landing unless the Hound captures her and takes her to KL for whatever reason. I know, I know, D&D could just have her taking a looooong detour in her way home, but there is very little time left, and they already had her overstaying her time in Braavos so other plots could get where they needed to be.

I didnt' mean that other Stark kids could kill Ylyn Payne, just that a man like him must have a really long list of people who hates him that are not named Stark. I don't think the sotry is leading to any of the Starks kids going to KL, Jon is KITN and busy with the incoming war with the White Walkers, Bran just reached the Wall and is also the 3ER, he is staying right there in the North. Arya is heading home, and it looks like that is her story next season, IMO. I guess Littlefinger could have some elaborated scheme to take Sansa to King's Landing, but it is unlikely. Sansa is staying put in the North, though I could see her going to the Twins, if case the Freys are no more and Edmure is somehow back in charge, to get the Tullys support for the incoming battle. Ilyn Payne is a great swordman that even Jamie respected, but so was Ned and all it took was a soldier behind is back cutting his leg.

I think you are right about Melisandre, though. Thinking about it, her main purpose was to lead Stannis North, then bring Jon back from the dead. Maybe Arya kills her backi in Winterfell?

FWIW I don't think Arya will be alive in the last episode of the series, but I'm sure she will reunite with Jon and Sansa and probably Bran too. They can't kill her and pull the rug before the audience's feet before giving people one good moment.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Raachel2008

[YaddaYadda]

On 7/1/2016 at 7:17 AM, Macbeth said:

I agree. But I bet Varys, through his little birds, knows the truth.

I'm pretty convinced Varys knows. Varys was in the Mad King's court fulfilling the same role he was. If I'm not mistaken, he's the whole reason the Mad King even left court to go to the tourney of Harrenhal. The reason allegedly for the tourney was for Rhaegar to have have the support of all the lords that were present because he wanted to depose his father.

Plus there was the whole thing with Arthur Dayne, Whent (and Hightower in the books) being kept at the Tower of Joy instead of riding with Rhaegar to the Trident to protect their crown prince.

If he doesn't outright know, he probably guessed it. Everyone who was anyone knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar. For someone like Varys who has been at it for a really long time, putting 2 and 2 together wouldn't be the most difficult thing in the world.

On 7/1/2016 at 10:57 AM, WearyTraveler said:

I think LF would relish a Ned v. Robert War, but that wouldn't necessarily bring him closer to the throne.  Not until much later, when he had climbed up the ladder enough.  The thing is, I think TV LF knows, but book LF doesn't.

So, for the TV we have scenes with LF and Sansa in front of Lyanna's grave, and LF acts all coy about it, a scene that has twice popped up in the "previously on.." segment. That and other, albeit less conspicuous, anvils that have been dropped throughout lead me to believe that TV LF knows but has kept his trap shut.  And the show will explain it (or we will have to resort to fanwank it) as LF waiting for the right opportunity to make use of that information.  That is, a set of circumstances when such a revelation would bring the maximum benefit to Littlefinger, not just amuse him.

I agree with this that show LF likely knows something, and book LF doesn't. 

The thing that makes me think that LF might know is that he was in the crypts of Winterfell. He might have followed Sansa down there, or he was off exploring on his own. Considering that there might be something down there that is Jon related, it kind of makes me wonder if he didn't find a clue. Plus he is in Winterfell now, if there's something then he might find it. 

The look he gave Sansa after she said that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, but the story is told by the victor, because Barristan Selmy sure as hell didn't think any less of Rhaegar when talking about him to Dany. He said he was the finest man he had ever known, and we all know that Barristan is himself a man of honor.

[Harald Hardrada]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Just to clarify there were two woman in the room , first woman got Jon and handed him to the second, who handed him to Ned, also the v version may not do the Howland Reed bit, he didn't follow Ned into the tower and he wasn't in the scene.

Reed was badly injured after that cut from Arthur Dayne, hence the absence during Ned's moment with Lyanna.

[screamin]

7 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

People gossip, and half the time the nobles don't know the half of it, which is why Varys has little birds and disguises himself and LF has brothels and other assorted spies. Knowledge is power, after all.

Granted, but tween LF finding out who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was when Aerys and Varys' entire spy network came up empty would be a little too Hardy Boys for me. And if he did definitely find out, wouldn't he have wanted to use it as a tool to blow up the entire Stark family long before Brandon came riding up to wed Catelyn, his Twue Wuv? Aerys would really love to have heard the news at Harrynhal, where he was already looking for treason.

I do agree that LF might have picked up a lot of interesting and suggestive gossip that - years later, with the appearance of the unlikely bastard son of Ned - he might have fit together into the same hypothesis We the Readers had. But I doubt he found out anything for sure at that early date.

[slf]

12 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Jon's leadership has always been second guessed by this one or the other, but I don't see any of his victories as unearned and I don't know what you mean by even the show knows it.  Jon successfully infiltrated the wildling camp, learned what they were planning, then escaped to report back to the NW.  He held off the attack of the wildling army at the wall when Alliser Thorne was wounded.  Before that he lead the attack on Craster's Keep, avenging LC Mormont and fought at the Fist of the First Men.  No one denies that Jon lost his head during the battle of the bastards.  That doesn't mean he is not a strong military commander or leader of men, and once Jon's horse was shot out from under him, he didn't have any choice but be a foot soldier. Everything you pointed out about this particular battle, Jon knew the moment he charged, but his heart couldn't go along with his head once he saw his brother go down.  Was it bad for the team?  Well, yeah.  But totally understandable under the circumstances.  Jon is brave and loyal; he's courageous with a huge heart and that is why people follow him.  Davos didn't oppose Jon's plan and as far as we know, Cerwyn was approached off screen.  When Lady Mormont called out the houses, Cerwyn was on her list.  If he hadn't refused the call, he should have spoken up and cleared his name, but he didn't.  As a matter of fact, he didn't pledge an oath to Jon at all, and didn't take part in the cheering until it was clear the other lords were all in.  So, once again, the only thing we know for sure is that Sansa reached out to LF and kept secrets from Jon.  The end.  

I think you're confusing things regarding Hardhome and the events leading up to it.  Jon did not strike any bargains with Stannis (i.e. negotiating with Tormund and the wildlings so that Stannis could take Winterfell).  Jon refused all of Stannis's overtures including giving him the name Stark and the title of Ward of the North.  Jon stayed true to the oath he'd taken to Night's Watch.  Jon sought a pact with the wildlings to help the brothers fight off the White Walkers.  He did everything he could to increase the numbers of the NW...he sent letters to all the houses in the North requesting men; he even sent a letter to Roose Bolton; although he hated doing it.  Jon put his case before Tormund who grudgingly agreed, but only if Jon went with him to Hardhome to help persuade the free folk.  Prior to doing this, Jon sought the advice of Maester Aemon.  He was concerned because he knew his plan would divide the brothers bitterly, half would hate him as soon as he gave the order.  Aemon told Jon that half the men hated him already. "You will find little joy in your command," Aemon told him, "but with luck you will find the strength to do what needs to be done.  Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us.  Kill the boy and let the man be born."  It was certainly Jon's call as Lord Commander to make the decision he thought best to protect the wall and everyone south of it.  Because the game was over if those fuckers got through.  

Jon advised the NW of his plan and as expected, they voiced their disapproval; especially Alliser Thorne who resented Jon from the beginning and never more than when Jon was elected Lord Commander over him.  Jon reminded them of the greater enemy, but still they clung to the grievances of the past; proving that you cannot reason with people who don't want to be reasoned with despite the eventual harm that will land on all.  The one mistake I think Jon made was not sending Alliser to another part of the wall because he was the real instigator.  Instead, Jon made him First Ranger and put Thorne in command when he left for Hardhome.  I have no doubt that Alliser used the opportunity to fan the flames already stirring against Jon in his absence.  I know the failings of humankind; the inability to see past old hurts, wars and injustices, the ability to be supremely selfish and to hold grudges for eons.  But I don't understand "biting off your nose to spite your face."  Alliser and his cronies knew about wights and White Walkers and had seen evidence of them with their own eyes.  What insanity made them think an army of dead wildlings turned wights was better than tolerating them as allies to help fight the real threat? What made them think that the oath, "...I am the sword in the darkness, the watcher on the walls, the shield that guards the realms of men..." didn't refer to something bigger than wildlings?  When Jon presented his argument to the free folk, quite a few of them took him up on the offer.  They wanted to survive and live.  In this, they were far more reasonable than the men of the watch.  

And lastly, Jon did not leave the wall under-manned when he went to Hardhome.  The wall wasn't under any threat when he left, and only a handful of brothers accompanied Jon and Tormund.  Hardhome took the hit from the Night King's army, lots of free folk died and were turned during that battle. So, I disagree wholeheartedly with your reasoning.  Jon was not Stannis's pawn.  Jon did not involve himself in the politics south of the wall, and Jon did not make the wrong choice.  He knew certain factions were unhappy with his decision, but he never thought they would murder him. The wrong choice was made by Alliser, Olly and the rest.  Bet they were shocked to shit when they saw that even death couldn't keep Jon Snow down.  

I'm aware Jon's had some success at the Wall, and isn't without leadership qualities when it comes to the military, which in no way changes the mistakes he made. It's understandable that he was all over the place because of Rickon's death but it's still a screwup. Understandably, Robb wanted to marry a woman he loved but that doesn't mean he didn't fuck up by doing it. Jon was warned about letting Ramsay play him and he was drawn in twice and a lot of mistakes were made on the battlefield, including that encircling. We have no idea if Cerwyn actually was approached or why they he didn't swear for Jon since the writing for the Northerners is so sloppy (no coalition among the Northerners means no one knows much); so that's just assumption. We know Sansa was trying to suggest allies and Jon cut her off with "we fight with the army we have" not "well we asked but they said no." As for his horse being shot out from under him, the right answer is not to charge your enemy on foot it's to get another horse from your men. Ramsay being equally hotheaded is why Jon didn't die during his charge- any military leader worth their salt would have rested their cavalry and just let the idiot running at them get pincushioned. Ramsay's idiocy doesn't make Jon's choice any smarter. This wasn't a small battle and is in fact the one that got him crowned King on the basis that he's a strong military leader. Yet...he fell into his enemies traps, did not actually lead his men on the field, and was rescued by his sister. 

I'm not confusing the events that lead up to Hardhome at all. Jon handled so much of that badly, as I've pointed out. His men didn't just...up and kill him as a whim. He made a series of choices that are all understandable from one angle but a hard sell for a Lord Commander. (To say nothing of the fact that the ravens should've been a start toward getting new recruits not the whole effort.) That Alliser, who was hated among the men, was able to get a foothold says something; namely that he was communicating with them better and likely more than Jon was. Pitching it as just the men selfishly holding onto grievances is.... Grievances? This is cultural. They didn't even know the Walkers existed when they joined the wall; they would've grown up hearing stories about the wildlings attacking the wall, eating people. These men weren't trained to fight White Walkers. They were trained to fight the wildlings. Most of the men of the wall are older than Jon, have been there longer, some of them fighting the wildlings for decades. Olly watched his family cannibalized by wildlings. I have to disagree that Jon sold that, at all much less well. And how are dead wildling turned into wights more of an issue for them than the risks of the rescue in the first place?

How was the wall not undermanned? All those previous battles you mentioned lost men. The Wall was undermanned when Jon first arrived at it, something repeatedly stated in the show and books. Every single fight dropped their numbers more and more. They weren't gaining (getting) enough recruits to replenish their numbers. The wall was undermanned and vulnerable already and Hardhome really didn't help. 

Jon wasn't a pawn, nor did I say he was. I said he was bargaining on behalf of Stannis - regardless of him turning down offers Stannis made - in direct contradiction to his oaths as a Lord Commander and brother of the watch and his men knew it. He absolutely participated in politics south of the wall. How Stannis becomes King or takes Winterfell does not concern the NW. They say that for a reason and that reason is there are Freys on that wall. Tarlys of the Reach. Men of the Riverlands, the Vale, the Crownlands, the Westerlands. You cannot participate in the politics of the realm. Another reason is than you might make the Wall a target. Let's say Stannis goes after Ramsay, loses, and Ramsay hears that Stannis was working with Jon Snow, the bastard son of Ned Stark and half brother of the previous King in the North, and so decides to attack the wall. Then what? The Wall is indefensible from the south side exactly because it's not meant to be defending itself from the Kingdoms. Any attack against the wall from within the Kingdoms is mostly going to get the Night's Watch slaughtered.

Sorry, I don't agree at all. The men of the watch screwed up by killing Jon but he did fail. Jon has had major screwups. To be "fair" to the character, the writing for him has been sloppy for seasons, more concerned with getting him where it needs him to be for his Great Destiny.

Edited July 2, 2016 by slf

[Shanna Marie]

I have to say that if they wanted us to see that Sansa was slighted or thought she was slighted or was tending toward wanting to side with Littlefinger, then they wrote it wrong. I'm not even talking about performances and analyzing an ambiguous facial expression. I'm talking about dialogue and the way events were juxtaposed.

First, there's the scene between Jon and Sansa on the wall and how that matches the scene in the hall. We saw him give her full credit for saving the day and no blame for not telling him, just saying that they need to trust each other in the future. When we join the scene in the hall, they're already talking about next steps. The Vale isn't keen on teaming up with wildlings, and other lords are considering their job done and wanting to go home and hunker down for winter. If there had been a post-mortem on the battle and a time for Jon to have given credit, it had already passed before we joined the scene. If it was going to be critical to the story going forward that he took all the credit or gave credit to her, then we should have seen that part of the scene. Then there's whether or not Jon usurps Sansa -- on the wall, he tries a couple of times to put her into position, saying he's getting the lord's chambers ready for her, and then he calls her Lady of Winterfell. She tells him to take the lord's chambers and says that to her he's a Stark. The lord's chambers weren't just a bedroom. That would also have been kind of like an office -- the place where the lord met with advisors and did paperwork. The role comes with it, so her telling him to take that room wasn't just about him getting the bigger room because he's more likely to have friends over. And if she's considering him to be a Stark, that means he's Lord of Winterfell because he's the oldest living child and a boy. If he's a Stark, then he's even over Bran. When we next see them in the hall, they're both sitting at that head table. If he's not a Stark, if he's just a bastard and having no official role, he's not at that table. He might have been sitting near the front of the room, as military commander, but he wouldn't be at the head table. However, if he's not giving her credit and is taking over, she wouldn't be at that table. Her being at that table with him means he's sharing the position. There isn't any real reason for the younger sister of the lord to be sitting at the head table, especially when they're discussing military matters. In all that setup, she has no reason to get her nose out of joint.

Where I might imagine her feeling some unease is that even though she suggested this change, it's still a big change. She spent her whole life thinking of him as lesser, as not a real Stark, not a real brother. Seeing him ahead of her, even if she put him there, and seeing other people accept him in that position, would take getting used to, and I imagine it's that "other people" part that's at issue. When she tells him he's a Stark, implying that he's also Lord of Winterfell, she's still coming from a position of power because it's something she has the power to grant, and that means she'll always know that even if he's in power, she's the one who granted it, and because she's trueborn, she still somewhat retains the power to take his position away. She can always deny his status later, if it comes to that. But when all the Northern lords name him king, that changes the power dynamic entirely. He's getting power that has nothing to do with her. The bastard brother she so graciously allowed to be lord is now being proclaimed a king by all the lords, and there's nothing she can do to take it away.

Then there's the scene with Littlefinger. In it, she talks about how she was a stupid girl for spending all her time thinking about what she wanted rather than about what she had. That makes it hard to imagine she'd go straight back to thinking more about "but why can't I be queen?" than about the reality of their situation. If they wanted us to be thinking later that she's thinking that Littlefinger would have made her a queen, they shouldn't have written that part of the earlier scene.

The other thing that really struck me is that Littlefinger proved to be horribly wrong about his political assessment, for perhaps the first time, when he told Sansa he was sure the northern Lords would support her over a bastard. He may have misjudged Ramsay in a way that was harmful to Sansa, but it didn't hurt his schemes. His read on people for his political maneuverings has always been pretty accurate. He's the chess player who can read his opponents well enough to plan several moves in advance. But this time around, he placed his bets on Sansa, only to have the northern lords turn around and do exactly what he said they wouldn't do. I would hope Sansa would take that into consideration in her future dealings with him. He's already an untrustworthy ally because he'll throw anyone under the bus as long as he comes out ahead, but now he's not only untrustworthy, but in dealing with the Northerners he seems to be totally out of his element. He can't read these people accurately.

Even more amusing is the fact that he was politically outmaneuvered by a 10-year-old girl. When Lyanna steps up to make her declaration of Jon as King in the North, she's actually cutting off Jon from going into the White Walker threat. He was gearing up to start telling them more about the fight that lay ahead, and she jumped in to rally people, like she was trying to get them fired up for being on the team and rallying them behind a leader before he told them what they'd really have to do. She believed Davos about the threat, and that's why she signed on, but not everyone is yet on board with even believing this thing exists outside of legend. They might argue with or dismiss Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell, or even the commander of the armies of the North, but once they've all acclaimed him the King in the North, they're bound to follow his command. There's no more arguing with him or dismissing him. He now has the authority to make them listen and follow his orders. It was a brilliant piece of political maneuvering that totally and completely undermined all of Littlefinger's schemes in the north.

It would actually be interesting if Littlefinger finds himself utterly at a loss in the north because he doesn't know how to deal with these people. He could manipulate and mess with Ned when he was out of his element, alone in the South, but Littlefinger may not be that adept with dealing with the very direct, non-sneaky Northmen en masse.

[AGuyToo]

4 hours ago, slf said:

I'm aware Jon's had some success at the Wall, and isn't without leadership qualities when it comes to the military, which in no way changes the mistakes he made. It's understandable that he was all over the place because of Rickon's death but it's still a screwup. Understandably, Robb wanted to marry a woman he loved but that doesn't mean he didn't fuck up by doing it. Jon was warned about letting Ramsay play him and he was drawn in twice and a lot of mistakes were made on the battlefield, including that encircling. We have no idea if Cerwyn actually was approached or why they he didn't swear for Jon since the writing for the Northerners is so sloppy (no coalition among the Northerners means no one knows much); so that's just assumption. We know Sansa was trying to suggest allies and Jon cut her off with "we fight with the army we have" not "well we asked but they said no." As for his horse being shot out from under him, the right answer is not to charge your enemy on foot it's to get another horse from your men. Ramsay being equally hotheaded is why Jon didn't die during his charge- any military leader worth their salt would have rested their cavalry and just let the idiot running at them get pincushioned. Ramsay's idiocy doesn't make Jon's choice any smarter. This wasn't a small battle and is in fact the one that got him crowned King on the basis that he's a strong military leader. Yet...he fell into his enemies traps, did not actually lead his men on the field, and was rescued by his sister. 

I'm not confusing the events that lead up to Hardhome at all. Jon handled so much of that badly, as I've pointed out. His men didn't just...up and kill him as a whim. He made a series of choices that are all understandable from one angle but a hard sell for a Lord Commander. (To say nothing of the fact that the ravens should've been a start toward getting new recruits not the whole effort.) That Alliser, who was hated among the men, was able to get a foothold says something; namely that he was communicating with them better and likely more than Jon was. Pitching it as just the men selfishly holding onto grievances is.... Grievances? This is cultural. They didn't even know the Walkers existed when they joined the wall; they would've grown up hearing stories about the wildlings attacking the wall, eating people. These men weren't trained to fight White Walkers. They were trained to fight the wildlings. Most of the men of the wall are older than Jon, have been there longer, some of them fighting the wildlings for decades. Olly watched his family cannibalized by wildlings. I have to disagree that Jon sold that, at all much less well. And how are dead wildling turned into wights more of an issue for them than the risks of the rescue in the first place?

How was the wall not undermanned? All those previous battles you mentioned lost men. The Wall was undermanned when Jon first arrived at it, something repeatedly stated in the show and books. Every single fight dropped their numbers more and more. They weren't gaining (getting) enough recruits to replenish their numbers. The wall was undermanned and vulnerable already and Hardhome really didn't help. 

Jon wasn't a pawn, nor did I say he was. I said he was bargaining on behalf of Stannis - regardless of him turning down offers Stannis made - in direct contradiction to his oaths as a Lord Commander and brother of the watch and his men knew it. He absolutely participated in politics south of the wall. How Stannis becomes King or takes Winterfell does not concern the NW. They say that for a reason and that reason is there are Freys on that wall. Tarlys of the Reach. Men of the Riverlands, the Vale, the Crownlands, the Westerlands. You cannot participate in the politics of the realm. Another reason is than you might make the Wall a target. Let's say Stannis goes after Ramsay, loses, and Ramsay hears that Stannis was working with Jon Snow, the bastard son of Ned Stark and half brother of the previous King in the North, and so decides to attack the wall. Then what? The Wall is indefensible from the south side exactly because it's not meant to be defending itself from the Kingdoms. Any attack against the wall from within the Kingdoms is mostly going to get the Night's Watch slaughtered.

Sorry, I don't agree at all. The men of the watch screwed up by killing Jon but he did fail. Jon has had major screwups. To be "fair" to the character, the writing for him has been sloppy for seasons, more concerned with getting him where it needs him to be for his Great Destiny.

I agree that the writing on this show is sloppy, especially since they've gone off book, but I think we know as well as we know anything that Cerwyn did refuse. He's the third guy that Lyanna Mormont calls out: "And you, Lord Cerwyn, your father was skinned alive by Ramsay Bolton. Still you refused the call." At this public shaming, Cerwyn just looks down guiltily. If he hadn't been approached, he certainly would have defended himself. (ETA: If you freeze the video at the point the "King in the North" chant starts, you'll see that Cerwyn is in the same position as Manderly and Glover: he's kneeling with head bowed and grasping his sword which is pointed downwards. I bet they filmed a sequence of him pledging fealty in the same way as Manderly and Glover, but cut it for time.)

Sansa was completely wrong about the Northern houses. That was one of this season's themes: despite the romance of "the North remembers," the North for the most part did not remember. That was just another fairy tale. In S06E05, Sansa goes on and on at their planning meeting about how Northerners are different, more loyal, and how people would do anything for the Stark name. When Davos gently tries to suggest that she's being too rosy-eyed, she throws shade: "How well do you know the North, Ser Davos?" The subsequent Team Stark tour of the north yielded little beyond the fabled Mormont 62 (and they got those only because of Davos). Their ravens to the Northern houses -- the ones Lord Glover scoffed at -- apparently only resulted in some Hornwoods and Mazins. By the time the battle starts, there are no men -- as far as Jon and Davos know -- left for them to recruit and they are facing defeat by snow if they don't move quickly. Of course, Sansa knows that there is a source of new men, Littlefinger's army, but she chooses not to share that information. She didn't get "cut off" -- she just chose, for whatever reason, not to share.

Hardhome did strengthen the Wall because it gave them several thousand Wildling allies. There were only about 100 men in the Night's Watch at the time of the battle of Castle Black. By the time Jon set out for Hardhome there were fewer. Adding several thousand Wildlings at the cost of a handful of NW men was a good deal. It also meant several thousand fewer members of the Night King's army.

Cooperating -- to an extent, but only to an extent -- with Stannis to secure the Wildling alliance was also a reasonable call. Again, the Night's Watch only numbered in the dozens. They needed the freefolk.

Edited July 2, 2016 by AGuyToo
Added the result of my Zapruder-like analysis of the KitN scene.

[stagmania]

Thanks for the summary on Jon, @taurusrose. There's a real tendency in discussion of this show (not just on this board, but everywhere) for people to oversimplify and reduce characters to a couple defining traits. With the male Starks, it's noble and stupid, and many people choose to interpret events narrowly so as to stick to that definition of them. With the show's decision to pit Sansa against Jon this season, I've seen a lot more of that directed at him lately, and it rankles. He's never been my favorite character, but I've always been invested in his journey and found his story to be fairly nuanced. 

[TaurusRose]

@slf You keep mentioning Jon's mistakes during the battle of bastards (which has been acknowledged by myself and everyone else with eyes).  Jon was handed the victory because HE was the commander.  He led the charge, he and his men stood their ground, and they would have died bravely for the cause w/o knowledge of any backup coming to their aid. Having courage is doing the right thing even when you know it could cost your life. That is what Jon and his men did.  I've also argued your other points as far as I'm willing; my position has not changed and I'm not going to be won over.   I think it's time to agree to disagree on this topic because now we're just arguing in circles.

@AGuyToo Thanks for saying what I've been trying to say with a whole lot less words.

@stagmania You are welcome.    

Edited July 2, 2016 by taurusrose

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Why Arya would go back to King's Lading if she is already half her way  North? She knows were Ylyn Payne and Cersei are, yet she let Braavos and chose to head North. "A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell and I'm going home". The Twins just happen to be half her way, and Walder Frey was a pretty big name in her list. I really believe the show is pushing Arya towards meeting Sansa and Jon. Of course it will take ages - or not - but I don't see why or how they would kick her back to King's Landing unless the Hound captures her and takes her to KL for whatever reason. I know, I know, D&D could just have her taking a looooong detour in her way home, but there is very little time left, and they already had her overstaying her time in Braavos so other plots could get where they needed to be.

I didnt' mean that other Stark kids could kill Ylyn Payne, just that a man like him must have a really long list of people who hates him that are not named Stark. I don't think the sotry is leading to any of the Starks kids going to KL, Jon is KITN and busy with the incoming war with the White Walkers, Bran just reached the Wall and is also the 3ER, he is staying right there in the North. Arya is heading home, and it looks like that is her story next season, IMO. I guess Littlefinger could have some elaborated scheme to take Sansa to King's Landing, but it is unlikely. Sansa is staying put in the North, though I could see her going to the Twins, if case the Freys are no more and Edmure is somehow back in charge, to get the Tullys support for the incoming battle. Ilyn Payne is a great swordman that even Jamie respected, but so was Ned and all it took was a soldier behind is back cutting his leg.

I think you are right about Melisandre, though. Thinking about it, her main purpose was to lead Stannis North, then bring Jon back from the dead. Maybe Arya kills her backi in Winterfell?

FWIW I don't think Arya will be alive in the last episode of the series, but I'm sure she will reunite with Jon and Sansa and probably Bran too. They can't kill her and pull the rug before the audience's feet before giving people one good moment.

I see Arya as the one character who won't get killed. Arya and Bran, actually, seem to me to have plot armor. Arya is likely to be the last Stark standing. No offense to Bran.

Arya is always on her way someplace and either going someplace else or getting taken someplace else, and so I just don't see her purposefully striding over the Winterfell and fulfilling audience expectations in a straightforward and simple way. I figure she'll be in King's Landing first.

Cersei is at the top of Arya's list, and has been from day one. If Arya doesn't try to kill Cersei, there needs to be a good reason. I used to be adamantly opposed to Arya being Cersei's killer because I don't think people get what they want in this story, but now I'm starting to waver.

[AGuyToo]

53 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

I see Arya as the one character who won't get killed. Arya and Bran, actually, seem to me to have plot armor. Arya is likely to be the last Stark standing. No offense to Bran.

Arya is always on her way someplace and either going someplace else or getting taken someplace else, and so I just don't see her purposefully striding over the Winterfell and fulfilling audience expectations in a straightforward and simple way. I figure she'll be in King's Landing first.

Cersei is at the top of Arya's list, and has been from day one. If Arya doesn't try to kill Cersei, there needs to be a good reason. I used to be adamantly opposed to Arya being Cersei's killer because I don't think people get what they want in this story, but now I'm starting to waver.

I don't know where they're going with Arya this season -- family reunion or ninja assassin both seem possible -- but I'd be surprised if Arya killed Cersei, only because it might undermine Dany's story.

She's traveling to Westeros with overwhelming strength, including three dragons, the Unsullied, the Dothraki, a huge armada, and alliances with Tyrell/Greyjoy/Dorne. At this moment Dany doesn't know about the Night King. As far as she knows, her principal enemy is Cersei and the Lannisters. If Cersei can be taken out by Arya working alone, that would seem to make the Army (and Navy and Air Force) of Dany kind of overkill.

Edited July 2, 2016 by AGuyToo

[TaurusRose]

I am really excited about Dany's story.  It's going to bring together a lot of characters who have never met or who haven't seen each other in a long time.  It will be interesting to see how things reveal themselves when Westeros discovers both dragons and White Walkers.  I also want to find out how Bran fits into the new world order even though I don't really care about Bran.  I also want to see who Dany ultimately becomes.  I've always liked her and believed in her.  I hope the promise of her arrival and rule along with the negotiations and alliances she will have to be part of bears enjoyable fruit.  I also want to see Cersei Lannister dealt with because it's been a long time coming.  And, I HATE her.  I'm ambivalent about Jamie's future.  I don't really like him, but I don't know what I would like to see happen to him.  I've always rooted for Arya.  I don't think she's a monster; I think she was exposed to a lot of things she should not have been and those experiences have largely informed who she is now.  But I don't think she is a lost cause.  Of all the people I would like to see her reunited with, it's Jon.  They clearly loved each other and he gave her Needle.  I don't know how GoT will ultimately end. GRRM's unfinished novels cast a shadow over whatever the series does, IMO, but I'm going to enjoy the ride and hope that my favorite characters survive.  

[AGuyToo]

20 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I am really excited about Dany's story.  It's going to bring together a lot of characters who have never met or who haven't seen each other in a long time.  It will be interesting to see how things reveal themselves when Westeros discovers both dragons and White Walkers.  I also want to find out how Bran fits into the new world order even though I don't really care about Bran.  I also want to see who Dany ultimately becomes.  I've always liked her and believed in her.  I hope the promise of her arrival and rule along with the negotiations and alliances she will have to be part of bears enjoyable fruit.  I also want to see Cersei Lannister dealt with because it's been a long time coming.  And, I HATE her.  I'm ambivalent about Jamie's future.  I don't really like him, but I don't know what I would like to see happen to him.  I've always rooted for Arya.  I don't think she's a monster; I think she was exposed to a lot of things she should not have been and those experiences have largely informed who she is now.  But I don't think she is a lost cause.  Of all the people I would like to see her reunited with, it's Jon.  They clearly loved each other and he gave her Needle.  I don't know how GoT will ultimately end. GRRM's unfinished novels cast a shadow over whatever the series does, IMO, but I'm going to enjoy the ride and hope that my favorite characters survive.  

I'm also excited to see Dany in Westeros. We've been waiting five years for this, after all.

But I think the thing I'm most excited about is an Arya/Jon reunion. Even though they interacted on screen only once -- 58 episodes ago! -- that scene involved Needle, and I've since constructed an elaborate back story in my head for those two.

Edited July 3, 2016 by AGuyToo
Forgot that there are only 10 eps/season and not 13

[Knuckles]

3 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

She's traveling to Westeros with overwhelming strength, including three dragons, the Unsullied, the Dothraki, a huge armada, and alliances with Tyrell/Greyjoy/Dorne.

Dany has overwhelming numbers and dragons on her side, but I am not inclined to think it all will be that easy for her. Dorne has a former mistress of Oberyn and the assassin of Prince Doran currently running things..but given the acute class consciousness of Westeros, will the Great Houses of Dorne follow her commands?  Winter is here, not just in the north, but will be moving south. Neither the Dothraki nor the Unsullied are used to snow, nor fighting in ice and snow.  Olenna has made clear she is only interested in revenge...in show Highgarden, their are no surviving heirs. She despises Dorne, so this is a short-term alliance of convenience. With the Lannister army destroyed, and the Lannisters themselves dead...presumably both in KL and in Casterly Rock...what further use has she of Dorne? Further, she has no reason to continue to supply food to KL...so the people there might be already in near revolt from hunger. Where are Dany's armies supposed to get their food supplies...from an empty city?  You would have thought Tyrion might have had some thoughts on the supply issues.  And Randyl Tarly, described by Stannis as the best general in Westeros, will have command of the remaining Tyrell forces. Can you see him joining the Tyrell army with the Dothraki hordes and the Iron Islanders? Not for long. 

Just my opinion, but Dany's invasion looks to be a cakewalk...but I am inclined to think it won't be.

[SeanC]

40 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Dorne has a former mistress of Oberyn and the assassin of Prince Doran currently running things..but given the acute class consciousness of Westeros, will the Great Houses of Dorne follow her commands?  

Ellaria has been able to run Dorne the entire season, evidently without incident, and sent a great fleet of ships to assist Dany, so all signs indicate that they will.

Quote

Olenna has made clear she is only interested in revenge...in show Highgarden, their are no surviving heirs. She despises Dorne, so this is a short-term alliance of convenience. With the Lannister army destroyed, and the Lannisters themselves dead...presumably both in KL and in Casterly Rock...what further use has she of Dorne? 

The Tyrell/Martell rivalry from the books does not exist in the show.  Olenna sniped a bit at the Sand Snakes, but in her scene in this episode she didn't treat them any differently than anybody else she interacts with.

Quote

Further, she has no reason to continue to supply food to KL...so the people there might be already in near revolt from hunger.

She'd supply KL with food because she pledged allegiance to Dany, and Dany would then be queen, and would, with her army of dragons, have every ability to compel allegiance.

Edited July 2, 2016 by SeanC

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Reed was badly injured after that cut from Arthur Dayne, hence the absence during Ned's moment with Lyanna.

The point is Jon and company won't get the info from Reed in the show; unless they have him do something else like deliver an artifact or something to back up Bran's story.

[buttercupia]

Illyn Payne is already dead, isn't he? Didn't Jon behead him for refusing to follow orders? After Tyrion sent him to the wall? And he became bff with Aliser Thorne?

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, buttercupia said:

Illyn Payne is already dead, isn't he? Didn't Jon behead him for refusing to follow orders? After Tyrion sent him to the wall? And he became bff with Aliser Thorne?

Payne was with Jamie, it was Janos Slynt who Jon beheaded.

[arjumand]

16 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I have to say that if they wanted us to see that Sansa was slighted or thought she was slighted or was tending toward wanting to side with Littlefinger, then they wrote it wrong. I'm not even talking about performances and analyzing an ambiguous facial expression. I'm talking about dialogue and the way events were juxtaposed.

.....

The other thing that really struck me is that Littlefinger proved to be horribly wrong about his political assessment, for perhaps the first time, when he told Sansa he was sure the northern Lords would support her over a bastard. He may have misjudged Ramsay in a way that was harmful to Sansa, but it didn't hurt his schemes. His read on people for his political maneuverings has always been pretty accurate. He's the chess player who can read his opponents well enough to plan several moves in advance. But this time around, he placed his bets on Sansa, only to have the northern lords turn around and do exactly what he said they wouldn't do. I would hope Sansa would take that into consideration in her future dealings with him. He's already an untrustworthy ally because he'll throw anyone under the bus as long as he comes out ahead, but now he's not only untrustworthy, but in dealing with the Northerners he seems to be totally out of his element. He can't read these people accurately.

Even more amusing is the fact that he was politically outmaneuvered by a 10-year-old girl. When Lyanna steps up to make her declaration of Jon as King in the North, she's actually cutting off Jon from going into the White Walker threat. He was gearing up to start telling them more about the fight that lay ahead, and she jumped in to rally people, like she was trying to get them fired up for being on the team and rallying them behind a leader before he told them what they'd really have to do. She believed Davos about the threat, and that's why she signed on, but not everyone is yet on board with even believing this thing exists outside of legend. They might argue with or dismiss Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell, or even the commander of the armies of the North, but once they've all acclaimed him the King in the North, they're bound to follow his command. There's no more arguing with him or dismissing him. He now has the authority to make them listen and follow his orders. It was a brilliant piece of political maneuvering that totally and completely undermined all of Littlefinger's schemes in the north.

It would actually be interesting if Littlefinger finds himself utterly at a loss in the north because he doesn't know how to deal with these people. He could manipulate and mess with Ned when he was out of his element, alone in the South, but Littlefinger may not be that adept with dealing with the very direct, non-sneaky Northmen en masse.

I snipped most of the post but agree with every word - excellent analysis and very well put.

The things I bolded - you're a 100% right. Littlefinger being outmaneuvered, LF predicting wrongly, those things are what gave me hope for future Sansa, and is making me ignore all the BTS bullshit. The fact is, LF was wrong. He doesn't fit in the North, he doesn't understand them, and Sansa has to see that. She has to see that he never once asked her what she wanted, what her dreams and desires were. It's all about him, and what he wants, while Jon only ever wants to give her stuff.

 

15 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

I agree that the writing on this show is sloppy, especially since they've gone off book, but I think we know as well as we know anything that Cerwyn did refuse. He's the third guy that Lyanna Mormont calls out: "And you, Lord Cerwyn, your father was skinned alive by Ramsay Bolton. Still you refused the call." At this public shaming, Cerwyn just looks down guiltily. If he hadn't been approached, he certainly would have defended himself. (ETA: If you freeze the video at the point the "King in the North" chant starts, you'll see that Cerwyn is in the same position as Manderly and Glover: he's kneeling with head bowed and grasping his sword which is pointed downwards. I bet they filmed a sequence of him pledging fealty in the same way as Manderly and Glover, but cut it for time.)

Sansa was completely wrong about the Northern houses. That was one of this season's themes: despite the romance of "the North remembers," the North for the most part did not remember. That was just another fairy tale. In S06E05, Sansa goes on and on at their planning meeting about how Northerners are different, more loyal, and how people would do anything for the Stark name. When Davos gently tries to suggest that she's being too rosy-eyed, she throws shade: "How well do you know the North, Ser Davos?" The subsequent Team Stark tour of the north yielded little beyond the fabled Mormont 62 (and they got those only because of Davos). Their ravens to the Northern houses -- the ones Lord Glover scoffed at -- apparently only resulted in some Hornwoods and Mazins. By the time the battle starts, there are no men -- as far as Jon and Davos know -- left for them to recruit and they are facing defeat by snow if they don't move quickly. Of course, Sansa knows that there is a source of new men, Littlefinger's army, but she chooses not to share that information. She didn't get "cut off" -- she just chose, for whatever reason, not to share.

Hardhome did strengthen the Wall because it gave them several thousand Wildling allies. There were only about 100 men in the Night's Watch at the time of the battle of Castle Black. By the time Jon set out for Hardhome there were fewer. Adding several thousand Wildlings at the cost of a handful of NW men was a good deal. It also meant several thousand fewer members of the Night King's army.

Cooperating -- to an extent, but only to an extent -- with Stannis to secure the Wildling alliance was also a reasonable call. Again, the Night's Watch only numbered in the dozens. They needed the freefolk.

I think that Sansa, having spent so much time in the South, and at court, never really understood how traumatic the Red Wedding actually was to the North. Frey and Karstark and Bolton betrayed their king and broke guest right and tore the North apart, but all that Sansa saw (and you can't really blame her) was the deaths of her mother and brother. That's why Lyanna Mormont brought it up, and Manderley directly referenced it - in a kind of 'we've been using that as an excuse, and now we can't, he's fixed it.'  Lyanna Mormont drops the mic.

I agree with all you've said about Jon, too. It seems to me that the whole issue with the Wildlings and betraying Jon because of them comes from a misunderstanding of what the Night's Watch and the Wall are actually for, and what the North Remembers actually means. Just like Winter is Coming has nothing to do with the weather- well, partly, maybe. It was all about the Others and the Night's King. Only, the North, heh, forgot.

15 hours ago, taurusrose said:

@slf You keep mentioning Jon's mistakes during the battle of bastards (which has been acknowledged by myself and everyone else with eyes).  Jon was handed the victory because HE was the commander.  He led the charge, he and his men stood their ground, and they would have died bravely for the cause w/o knowledge of any backup coming to their aid. Having courage is doing the right thing even when you know it could cost your life. That is what Jon and his men did.  I've also argued your other points as far as I'm willing; my position has not changed and I'm not going to be won over.   I think it's time to agree to disagree on this topic because now we're just arguing in circles.

Yes, absolutely yes to everything.

Also, re. Jon's mistakes. You are absolutely right. To play devil's advocate, let's say he held back when his youngest brother, a child, was hunted like an animal, in front of him. And maybe he went ahead with the plan. He would have won that battle, but he would have lost the war for people's souls, to be a bit mushy about it. No way would Lyanna Mormont be acclaiming that guy to be King in the North, and no way would the other lords be following suit.

And that scene made me realise that he's going to have to be King in the North to unite the North and fight the Night's King, because as his experience with the Night's Watch showed him, reasoned argument isn't going to work (ironically, it worked with part of the wildlings at Hardhome, but it didn't work with so-called civilized men).

No, they weren't going to acclaim Sansa or follow her - she needs to make herself a true Northerner again before that happens.

Edited July 3, 2016 by arjumand

[slf]

@AGuyToo Well, shit. Yeah, Cerywn got called out shame-faced. As to the numbers added to the wall, good point. 

[stillshimpy]

Quote

The point is Jon and company won't get the info from Reed in the show; unless they have him do something else like deliver an artifact or something to back up Bran's story.

 

Yeah, Howland Reed doesn't need to be in the room for him to know about Jon, Grail King, because here's what happens:  Ned, single man with a sword enters tower to save his sister.  Emerges without his sister, but with a baby in tow.   A baby that Ned will proceed to tell the world is his own bastard son.  

Unless Ned came up with an incredibly convincing cabbage patch story, dude's gonna know. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Hecate7]

20 hours ago, SeanC said:

The Tyrell/Martell rivalry from the books does not exist in the show.  Olenna sniped a bit at the Sand Snakes, but in her scene in this episode she didn't treat them any differently than anybody else she interacts with.

 

Actually, she mentioned the 100 red scorpions, and that the last time a Tyrell came to Dorne he was assassinated, so I think we are meant to take from this that the Tyrells and Martells are very unlikely allies.

Quote

Further, she has no reason to continue to supply food to KL...so the people there might be already in near revolt from hunger.

Certainly not while Cersei's in charge there, no. This will make the conquest of King's Landing so much easier! A HIghgarden-fed army facing off against a starving city probably won't have to fight for very long...against the citizens, anyway. After the first cold spell things could get a little tricky.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Actually, she mentioned the 100 red scorpions, and that the last time a Tyrell came to Dorne he was assassinated, so I think we are meant to take from this that the Tyrells and Martells are very unlikely allies.

Loras was making googly eyes at Oberyn at the wedding in Season 4, so whatever their past history, they're clearly capable of tolerating each other just fine now.

[Hecate7]

Just now, SeanC said:

Loras was making googly eyes at Oberyn at the wedding in Season 4, so whatever their past history, they're clearly capable of tolerating each other just fine now.

Secret sex in back bedrooms with one individual is not the same as pledging the entire country's support publicly.

[SeanC]

Just now, Hecate7 said:

Secret sex in back bedrooms with one individual is not the same as pledging the entire country's support publicly.

Politics in this world is pretty much entirely about the feeling between the respective families.  If they're capable of getting along, they will, seeing as it's in their interest.

[Hecate7]

Just now, SeanC said:

Politics in this world is pretty much entirely about the feeling between the respective families.  If they're capable of getting along, they will, seeing as it's in their interest.

The feeling between families is a very different thing than individual sexual attraction. Entire epic sagas and histories have been written around this fact. Obviously they ARE allies now, but that wasn't the point the earlier poster was making--it was that they have laid aside their mutual bad feeling in order to become allies. The Tyrells are NOW willing to overlook the Martell untrustworthiness and habit of seducing and poisoning their enemies, and the Martells are willing to overlook whatever made them poison the last Tyrell ambassador in the first place.

[SeanC]

Just now, Hecate7 said:

Obviously they ARE allies now, but that wasn't the point the earlier poster was making--it was that they have laid aside their mutual bad feeling in order to become allies. The Tyrells are NOW willing to overlook the Martell untrustworthiness and habit of seducing and poisoning their enemies, and the Martells are willing to overlook whatever made them poison the last Tyrell ambassador in the first place.

The original post took the view that Olenna "despises" Dorne and that this alliance will inevitably blow up in bad feeling, which I was rebutting; there's nothing to indicate feelings between the parties are anything akin to that.  Olenna was not any more condescending than she was with anybody else she interacts with -- indeed, she went there in the first place with no hint of Targaryen involvement, so clearly it wasn't much of a hurdle for her.

The previous dead Tyrell was the steward that Daeron I left to govern Dorne after his invasion 150 years earlier.

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Yeah, Howland Reed doesn't need to be in the room for him to know about Jon, Grail King, because here's what happens:  Ned, single man with a sword enters tower to save his sister.  Emerges without his sister, but with a baby in tow.   A baby that Ned will proceed to tell the world is his own bastard son.  

Unless Ned came up with an incredibly convincing cabbage patch story, dude's gonna know. 

I knew I like  you for a reason LOL.

Still don't know if HR will be in the show version.

[Unknown poster]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

I knew I like  you for a reason LOL.

Still don't know if HR will be in the show version.

I bet he will. Why bother bringing him up otherwise? They didn't bother to name any of Ned's other companions. 

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

I bet he will. Why bother bringing him up otherwise? They didn't bother to name any of Ned's other companions. 

I'm hoping, but they changed a few things through the years.

[Unknown poster]

17 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I'm hoping, but they changed a few things through the years.

True, but I'm pretty sure almost every person who gets name dropped  (and is still alive ) shows up sooner or later. 

[Bill1978]

A sure sign that Howland Reed will appear is if some character says 'Howland Reed, father of Meera Reed...'

[patchwork]

It crossed my tumble dash this morning that HBO had clarified that Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell and Jon tKitN but I couldn't find a source. Has anyone else heard this?

[Hecate7]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Loras was making googly eyes at Oberyn at the wedding in Season 4, so whatever their past history, they're clearly capable of tolerating each other just fine now.

That's got nothing to do with politics. Loras was just appreciating a hot guy. He'd have done that no matter how he felt about the family.

[SeanC]

5 hours ago, patchwork said:

It crossed my tumble dash this morning that HBO had clarified that Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell and Jon tKitN but I couldn't find a source. Has anyone else heard this?

I linked this over in the House Stark thread, I believe (or it may have been the Sansa thread).  The clarification is from the HBO Viewer Guide for House Stark.

[Raachel2008]

9 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

A sure sign that Howland Reed will appear is if some character says 'Howland Reed, father of Meera Reed...'

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Meera and Jojen introduced themselves as Howland's children when they first met Bran, Rickon, Osha and Odor?

[Enigma X]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Meera and Jojen introduced themselves as Howland's children when they first met Bran, Rickon, Osha and Odor?

I believe so.

[bluvelvet]

8 hours ago, patchwork said:

It crossed my tumble dash this morning that HBO had clarified that Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell and Jon tKitN but I couldn't find a source. Has anyone else heard this?

Yes Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell per HBO, so does that mean she is responsible for herself in her own right and not ward to Jon? Jon is KITN but I assume that this means Sansa is in charge of Winterfell while Jon is charged with overseeing the entire North or is Jon also the de facto Lord of Winterfell (or he cannot be Lord since he is a bastard born but was elected King )

Edited July 4, 2016 by bluvelvet

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, bluvelvet said:

Yes Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell per HBO, so does that mean she is responsible for herself in her own right and not ward to Jon?

Sansa wouldn't be Jon's ward under any circumstances.  She's an adult (seemingly, the aging on this show has gotten quite vague) and a widow to boot.

[Enigma X]

I am gonna take my Jon stuff to the Jon thread. (I don't know how to quote from thread to thread.)

[YaddaYadda]

36 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I am gonna take my Jon stuff to the Jon thread. (I don't know how to quote from thread to thread.)

Click on the quote with the plus sign next to it, and leave the thread you're in. It's going to go in whichever thread you want.

[patchwork]

6 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

Yes Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell per HBO, so does that mean she is responsible for herself in her own right and not ward to Jon? Jon is KITN but I assume that this means Sansa is in charge of Winterfell while Jon is charged with overseeing the entire North or is Jon also the de facto Lord of Winterfell (or he cannot be Lord since he is a bastard born but was elected King )

Huh a king without a seat of power that's...something.

I don't suppose you have the link do you? 

[SeanC]

47 minutes ago, patchwork said:

Huh a king without a seat of power that's...something.

I don't suppose you have the link do you? 

As I said, I linked it in the Sansa thread.  It's here:

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-6/episode-10/houses/4/house-stark

[Macbeth]

On 7/1/2016 at 10:17 AM, stillshimpy said:

Aw thanks, Macbeth, that's kind of you.  I respectfully decline so as not to be blown up, thoroughly perforated, stabbed in the back, gored by a boar , sold into marriage or knitted into a sweater and turned into a fetching pair  of boots (because y'all have to know that's going to happen to someone before this whole gig is up) .  But it was still a nice thing to say (unless you're hoping I end up as a pair of boots, that is), so thank you. ne in order to prove a point) ....and that's where his point ends.

I have nothing but good intentions stillshimpy. 

Well this season was a vast improvement over S5.  Between the Boltons and Shireen's death that season was hard for me.  I think I was also mourning the loss of Tywin Lannister.  He was a magnificent bastard.  And while I don't think the show has ever recovered from his death, I am actually looking forward to next season.  Good job show.

[screamin]

Makes sense to me. Sansa has the legal right to Winterfell, and the title of King in the North is currently by acclamation, not inheritance. If Jon survives the uprising and the winter with his head on, some thought might be given to formalities like a capital and a castle for the king - right now, Jon will be fine in his sister's castle.

Not to mention I wonder if resurrected Jon is still capable of fathering children to found a dynasty; Beric Dondarrion gives the impression you revive a little further from humanity each time. In that case, the point is moot.

Edited July 5, 2016 by screamin

[Calamity Jane]

On June 27, 2016 at 6:56 AM, Rhodri said:

So D&D are cleaning house of all the George RR Martin characters they thought were extraneous.  I can sympathise but I wonder how Martin feels about this?

Then there is the future of the 7 kingdoms...

Unless Jaime and Cersei make more babies (unlikely), the Lannisters are coming to an end.

House Tyrell is gone.

Only bastards left in Dorne.  I know they have more progressive views there but the Sand Snakes will eventually all turn on each other before they produce viable heirs.

House Frey still has lots of heirs but they are so beaten down by Walder, I doubt they will last whatever upstart decides to come take over.

If Dany wins the Iron Throne, she had better get to baby making quick as she is the last one (Jon may be Targaryan but not interested in rebuilding that house I bet).

House Bolton gone (good riddance)!

After Euron is justly murdered, House Greyjoy will have a lesbian for a queen and her only remaining brother is a Eunuch.  She had better take one for the team or that house is done too.

House Baratheon gone.  Long before anyone knew it was gone but official gone now.

 In the end, House Stark wins just by having all those living heirs. Although I'm not sure how into having babies Bran, Sansa, and Arya are but at least they are alive and supporting their house.

If GRRM wanted more say in how the story plays out (assuming he doesn't already), all he had to do was stop gallivanting around and sit still a while and finish the books.  He seems to be too busy being a celebrity to get them written, or - as I believe - he's just lost the will and the passion to do so.  

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 9:55 AM, Umbelina said:

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/game-of-thrones-easter-eggs-callbacks-season-6-episode-10-the-winds-of-winter

Little Easter eggs in the episode. 

So Sansa's little smile was a call back to Catelyn's when Robb was declared KITN?  And we've spent pages trying to interpret it? 

I love the idea of Jon reversing the Stark sigil as his own - white wolf on gray background.  And since poor Wun Wun is really most sincerely dead, maybe we'll be seeing more of Ghost next season.

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 10:23 PM, lovebug1975 said:

not fighting is  a minor part....but it is a factor (to some houses).  it is more the dilemma of sansa's relations with a lannister (who is responsible for the red wedding) and a bolton (who they just evicted).  notice that they kept mentioning the red wedding and avenging it.

why in god's name would they want a ruler who has some involvement with the people responsible for the red wedding and the people they just defeated?

pretty sure they made that clear during the meeting....the red wedding was a big no no.  there is no way for the families to know sansa's role with both the lannisters and boltons.  we knew she was a victim.....they don't know that.  they is no way for them to know that other than her word.  but the red wedding was such a stain that any link to a lannister WILL be frowned UPON.

But Sansa lost just as much, if not more, than anyone else that day.  Even Northerners know how these things go.  Sansa was a political hostage of the Lannisters, followed by a forced marriage.  And Ramsay was clearly a forced marriage since Sansa already had a living husband.  Too bad she didn't strip and show these assholes some scars to show just how much love she has for the Boltons.  How is it that the Northerners forgive themselves for supporting Ramsay, but can't "forgive" Sansa for being in a forced marriage with the monster?  Oh I get it - it's patriarchal bullshit.  Maybe they'll be convinced of Sansa's loyalties when they hear of her part in Ramsay's death.

Looks like both Stark sister are being deprived of any credit.  Jon was praised for avenging the Red Wedding when it was actually Arya slaughtering the Freys.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Looks like both Stark sister are being deprived of any credit.  Jon was praised for avenging the Red Wedding when it was actually Arya slaughtering the Freys.

Nobody in the North knows about Walder yet...Unless Arya wrote her name in blood on the dining room table, nobody can give her credit for the kills. Did Sansa tell Jon that Arya was recently seen alive? Or that's another nugget her trust issues are causing her to withhold?