S02.E12: The Hail Mary

[Athena]

Quote

As Jamie puts all of his efforts into turning the Jacobite army away from the impending slaughter at Culloden Moor, Claire attempts to comfort the sick Alex Randall.  She is stunned when Alex reveals an outrageous plan to save the mother of his child.

 

Note: This is the Book Talk thread. It can contain spoilers from all the books. Unspoiled posters, please leave if you want to remain unspoiled.

[bluestocking]

Interesting twist that Murtagh offers to marry Mary to spare her from BJR.  They have done SO much to flesh our Murtagh's character and make us love him.  Did you see Ron's answer on Twitter today to "can we save Murtagh"?  (He deflected with a jokey answer.)

 

  I've got my fingers crossed we get him in Season 3 and he eventually takes over Innes' storyline and marries Jocasta.  Why else includes a scene where Murtagh talks about his thoughts on marriage? 

[melody16]

Well that episode was a waste of time. I am annoyed I stayed up to watch it. Way too much Dougal, Colum, and Jack with just the finale left to go. I get that this episode is a goodbye (hopefully) to two of those characters and next episode will be the final farewell for another, but wow was that boring and so dreary. That Alex Randall stuff really dragged. Claire making the decision at the stones gets 1 minute of screen time. But Claire convincing Jack to marry Mary gets about ten minutes. The mind boggles. 

Jamie and Claire had what 2 minutes of screen time together? Jamie is once again neutered. And I would never believe he would be okay with Claire going off with Jack, Murtagh or no.  Why does this show refuse to capitalize on the reason most of us love the characters and the books so much, the damn love story? 

Ira saying Jack and Dougal are the most interesting and complex characters on the show demonstrates the basic problem. These writers just do not understand Jamie's complexity and have no interest in exploring it. I don't even like Jamie all that much in the books! But wow has his character been overlooked. 

[toolazy]

I'm happy that they did not try to have Jamie be a witness to Mary & Jack's wedding. That part of the book never quite rang true so I'm glad they replaced him with Murtaugh.  I'm also glad that poor Alex wasn't the one who had to perform the ceremony.  

 Ira Behr did not say that that Dougal and Frank were "the most interesting and complex characters."  What he actually said is that they are "two of the most complicated, most vibrant characters."  And I think that's pretty much undeniable.  Misrepresenting what Behr said doesn't help anything.  That said, his purple beard bugs me. 

Just watching the preview for the last episode had me in tears.  I'm going to be a mess two weeks from now. 

[ulkis]

I'm glad they chose not to have Jamie at the wedding. 

Man, the actor who plays Alex looks a lot like Menzies. Good casting there. Although funnily enough the resemblnce didn't actually even come into play on the show.

It was amusing how Dougal and Colum just talked about everything right in front of Jamie.

"Mythical prick". Heh.

Not a bad episode, but very much a transitional one.

[Dust Bunny]

Wow. That was a quiet, nuanced episode. Right from the beginning there was no rush, just an intentional, sure-footed pace. Even more importantly, it was well-crafted from start to finish.

This episode corrected my biggest issue in DiA: when Jamie serves as witness to the BJR-Mary wedding and even comforts BJR in his grief. I hated that in the book. Jamie should never have had to be in the same room with him. And to put him in that position at the wedding… I’m all for forgiveness, but no person should have to comfort their rapist. Having Murtagh stand as witness was a brilliant alternative. Furthermore, I really appreciate that ShowClaire didn’t conceal her interactions with BRJ from Jamie. I understood why BookClaire would want to protect Jamie, but I always felt her concealing that from Jamie was wrong. Having that scene where Jamie angrily protests “Will we never be rid of that man!” was perfect. They’re an equal team who trust each other unequivocally (also shown when Claire told Dougal that she told Jamie about Dougal’s proposal to her).We also get a callback to Claire’s promise of helping Jamie bleed Randall after that baby is conceived.

I also love that ShowBJR doesn’t really get redeemed at all. That’s a much more realistic interpretation than BookBJR. It feels honest that BJR be dark from first shot of attacking Claire to last shot of beating his brother’s body. Just because he does love his brother, doesn’t mean he’s suddenly a good guy.

I further love the scene of Mary’s anger at Claire’s selfish interference between Mary and Alex’s relationship. Go Mary! It’s nice to have the writers intentionally show that Claire isn’t perfect. A lot of us were frustrated with Claire’s actions earlier. It’s nice to see those frustrations bear fruit in this scene.

Another change I really liked was Colum telling Dougal that Jamie would be Hamish’s guardian. Those three men were outstanding in that scene, but that moment especially stood out. Sam’s face when Jamie heard those words was perfect. And Graham McTavish… wow. That last conversation with Colum was almost Shakespearean.

Ira and Anne did an outstanding job. I can see how this one was a two-person script.

Other news and notes:

Geillis name-dropping. I’m guessing Roger’s ancestry will be discussed in depth.

A brief mention of the French gold, during the war council. Blink, and you’ll miss it, but it’s definitely there.

Jamie’s look to Murtagh (which is acknowledged in Murtagh’s raised eyebrows) in that first scene makes me think he’s already told Murtagh that he’s prepared to send Claire through the stones. And if Jamie can’t, he entrusts Murtagh to do so, on his behalf. We know that Jamie knows Claire is pregnant. I wonder if he’s told Murtagh.

Sam’s embodying of Jamie’s growing confidence and conviction is one of my joys this last-half of the season. I love the fire in his eyes. There was a moment with the war council where Sam had the same look I imagined when I read about Jamie’s eyes when he sees Roger’s hanging body. Damn, it’s awesome to watch.

And Cait – she has so many expressions. She really does seem to have Claire’s glass face. The countless emotions she can convey blows me away. Cait brings complexity and nuance to every scene.

Major kudos to Ira and Anne for co-writing a script that, I think, was stronger than this portion of the book. Honest characterizations, continuity, and a deliberateness of pace made this a noteworthy episode.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[ulkis]

On 6/25/2016 at 2:17 AM, Dust Bunny said:

I also love that ShowBJR doesn’t really get redeemed at all. That’s a much more realistic interpretation than BookBJR. It feels honest that BJR be dark from first shot of attacking Claire to last shot of beating his brother’s body. Just because he does love his brother, doesn’t mean he’s suddenly a good guy.

Agreed. I felt relieved when Randall started punching Alex's body, because it felt weird they were asking us to feel sorry for him, even a bit.

I was okay with Jamie and Claire getting little screentime in this episode, because otherwise it would have meant Jamie being around Randall.

Another moment I liked was when the general said "that idiot Charles!" and Jamie shot him that look like "yeah it's true but not in front of the others,okay?"

Edited June 28, 2016 by ulkis

[IntrovertGal]

I enjoyed this episode a lot. After a few action-packed episodes, it was nice to get a quieter, more reflective one. I was a bit thrown at first that the Randall storyline took place in Inverness and not in Edinburgh, but in the end it did not really matter. Like others here, I was very relieved that Jamie was not a witness to Mary and BJR's wedding on the show. I always hated that in the book and thought it made no sense. Also glad that BJR was not redeemed on the show (punching your own dead brother's body, BJR, really?).

I agree with Ira Behr, BJR is definitely one of the most complex characters on the show and while I may loathe the evil sadistic bastard, he is never boring and Tobias Menzies brought across the character's layers perfectly one more time. Seeing BJR truly loving his brother and being gentle with him was so jarring with what we usually see of the character. I thought Claire and BJR's conversation about Jamie and about BJR not wanting to inflict his dark urges on the woman his brother loves was highly fascinating.

I also loved the scene with Column, Dougal and Jamie, all three actors really brought it in that scene. The parallels of the two pairs of brothers was nicely done and how each surviving brother reacted to the death of his brother was interesting, to say the least. Claire reiterating to Jamie that she would help him kill BJR should he survive Culloden was very intense. You could feel the whole heaviness of everything that had happened in Paris with BJR and Claire making Jamie promise not to kill BJR then coming up again in that scene and Jamie and Claire overcoming that discord and being on the same page again.

Yes this episode was light on Jamie/Claire scenes, but I thought that the storylines that were presented in this episode were interesting in their own right and I loved seeing all those great actors perform and knocking it out of the park.

The preview for the finale already breaks my heart. I'll make sure to have plenty of tissues and some whisky ready when watching the season finale. ;)

[Andorra]

I was very disappointed by this episode. It left me completely cold. For me the most disappointing episode of the season. I was expecting pent up emotion, agony and I got one boring subplot after the next blown up unnecessarily. All the changes in the story seemed unnecessary. Why not leave it as it was? 

What I hated: 

Why wasn't Jamie with Claire at Alex and BJRs wedding? 
Why did BJR have to be persuaded by Claire to marry Mary? 
Why was it Claire's idea to press BJR for inofrmation and not the other way round? 

Where was Jamie in all that time? Why were Jamie and Claire seperated all the episode? When we only have one episode left? We have to feel the agony and the heartache, but it feels as if they're seperated for the whole season now. 

Again no intimacy. One 5 second scene between Jamie and Claire where Sam and Cait made the most out of what they're given, but they're the MAIN part of the show! It's THEIR story that is told in the books, not one side plot after the next! 

What I liked: 

The idea of surprising the English. Even though I know what is going to happen, I found myself hoping against better knowledge that they might somehow be successful. 

Murtagh. Duncan Lacroix is a gem. Please #saveMurtagh. He has proven to be the one real character that got his own story only in the show. In the book he was not of much importance to me. He was a good man, no doubt, but here in the show he is so much more important and so much more interesting. To lose him would be a complete loss for the show! When he proposed to marry Mary, I was genuinely touched. It was the only real emotional moment of the episode for me. 

Column Mackenzie. Gary Lewis is playing him wonderfully. I loved the scenes with him. Loved that he chose Jamie as the guardian for Hamish and the relationship between Column and Dougal is so complicated and deep. Very interesting. 

What was meh: 
All the rest. I couldn't care much for the Mary/Alex/BJR story. It frankly bored me. Maybe if I wasn't a book reader, I would have liked the storyline and there would have been at least a little element of surprise, but since I knew what was coming, it was just taking valuable screentime away from Jamie and Claire who barely interacted the whole episode.

[Petunia846]

Meh. So much manpain. So much Black Jack.

Jamie and Murtagh were bright spots, but too little to make me really enjoy the episode.

[morgan]

I just finished and came on to express my thoughts but see that Dustbunny covered each and every one of them so perfectly, I guess I just need to say, "ditto!" lol  

Reiterating how happy I am that they had Murtagh there with BJR instead of Jamie.  So happy.  And that Claire told Jamie about it instead of hiding it and promised to help bleed him herself if they could still avoid Culloden.  Go Team JamieClaire!

I really liked that BJR is still the dark, unredeemed sadist regardless of his feelings for his brother.  For Mary's sake I'm glad he doesn't have long to live.  

2 weeks is going to be a hard wait!  

[Clawdette]

I loved this episode. There can never be too much Jamie for my tastes but I understand when the story is taken in other directions.  I had no expectations that tears would spring forth again and again but there they were:  

Colum's conversation with Claire about assisted suicide;
Claire with Alex and Mary and the realization of their dire situation; 
The trifecta of Jamie, Colum, and Dougal and finding out the regard in which Colum held Jamie; 
Murtagh and Claire and his offer to marry Mary;
Alex's death and Johnny's reaction and then Jack's reaction;
Colum's death and Dougal's reaction
Jamie and Claire butting up against the end of the timeline.

I, too, am glad Murtagh replaced Jamie in the Randall scenes.  It was so much more believable than having Jamie there.  I loved the shot of Jamie absentmindedly rubbing his fingers when Colum and Dougal were talking.  We know that there was no surprise attack on the British but I found myself nonetheless rooting for the Highlanders.  Just anything to stop the dissolution of their way of life.

One final thought:  please let Murtagh survive, please let Murtagh survive.  Sometimes change is good.

[Petunia846]

I did love that Jamie wasn't part of the Alex/Mary/BJ stuff. That was a smart move.

How much do you want to bet that Jack pummeling his dead brother's body was not in the script? That seems like one of those things Tobias would surprise everyone with. I didn't care for it.

I gasped in the beginning when Fergus told Murtagh he looked like he needed to sleep. No, no, no, bad Fergus. Don't say things like that before Culloden. I don't want Murtagh to "sleep"...please, please, no.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Petunia846

[melody16]

Jack isn't complex to me. He's a sadist who happens to love his brother. That's it. And book Dougal is complex but show Dougal is a thug with a one track mind who is written very inconsistently. 

And I apologize for misinterpreting Ira's words. It was late when I typed, but it rubbed me the wrong way. But I stand by the rest of what I said. 

[Hybiscus]

melody16, I agree with you that Jack Randall isn't complex or "nuanced" as so many others believe.  He was a poorly conceived villain from the very beginning because his soul purpose was to be the bad guy.  His "complexity" is due to the fact that so many people adore Tobias Menzies.  That's why I'm so glad the show didn't choose to redeem his character, or have Jamie attend the wedding.

I do find Dougal to be interesting.  I don't necessarily like him, but I understand his motivations.  He's a frustrated alpha male.  He was born a second son, always in Colum's shadow; and his one chance at being a leader was the Jacobite rebellion, but he had to fall under Jamie's command.  So much of his actions make sense.

But I can understand why you're frustrated with the story.  I wonder if the tv show Outlander might not have been better had it not had such a huge, passionate following.  That way there wouldn't have been so many expectations to live up to, and we could just enjoy the story as it's presented.

[Starla]

This was one of my favorite episodes of the season. So much great acting and character interactions. Colum and Dougal are much more interesting to me in the show than the book. I really didn't care one way or the other about them while reading and I think I skimmed over some of their book scenes. Some of my change of heart is probably the show writing, but I think most of it is Gary Lewis and Graham McTavish. They have such strong presences on screen that any scene they are in carries a huge weight and sense of importance. I particularly loved the scene between Claire and Colum. He seemed to have really come to love and respect her, and she him. I don't remember that coming across in the books.

Like most others, I also loved that Jamie was not at the wedding. Here at "the end of all things" he should be doing everything in his power to stop the impending doom and gloom, not attending a Randall family event. I got the sense he truly tried everything he could to stop Culloden, but alas, it seems that whatever happens, happens. This episode really got that across as Claire and Jamie had to repeatedly face each step toward the inevitable.

One note of silliness: the way Charlie was sitting by the fire with his legs crossed and knees hanging out, and his hand and head thrown back, was a hilarious contrast to the big dirty highlanders. I know most folks don't like him but he makes me smile every time he is on screen, even his goofy "mark me." Glad we got one of those this episode.

Overall I think the writers did a great job of squeezing everything in they needed to to prepare for the huge episode to come. Even mention of Geilis, who I assume shows up next episode (just guessing). Can't wait for July 9, though I'm not sure what I'll do on Saturday mornings when it's over.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Starla
can't tolerate typos

[bearcatfan]

I agree with most everyone that I like Murtagh replacing Jamie at the wedding. Not only because he shouldn't have to be in the same room as BJR but also because I believe Jamie would be doing everything in his power to try to stop Culloden rather than wasting time attending the wedding of his rapist.

[TaurusRose]

14 hours ago, toolazy said:

...his purple beard bugs me. 

Me, too.  Some people just try too hard.

I'm glad they chose not to have Jamie at the wedding. 

Ditto.  After what BJR did to Jamie at Wentworth and his cruel, antagonizing comments to Claire in the pub, that would have been beyond the pale.  

Edited June 25, 2016 by taurusrose

[bluestocking]

1. Interesting that they got Colum to let us know that Douglal and Geillis' baby survived and was adopted but said nothing about Geillis' survival.  Maybe Colum is not supposed to know.  In any case that keeps her reappearance in Jamaica a surprise for viewers.  Will Claire clue Roger in to his ancestry this season?

[chocolatetruffle]

I loved everything about this episode. I loved the changes they made from the book as others have said...

3 hours ago, Starla said:

Like most others, I also loved that Jamie was not at the wedding. Here at "the end of all things" he should be doing everything in his power to stop the impending doom and gloom, not attending a Randall family event. I got the sense he truly tried everything he could to stop Culloden, but alas, it seems that whatever happens, happens. This episode really got that across as Claire and Jamie had to repeatedly face each step toward the inevitable.

Yes, it makes much more sense for Jamie to be actively trying to prevent the disaster of Culloden.  I don't need to see him and Claire in bed together to feel the shared intimacy of two people trying desperately hard to prevent something that will destroy them and everyone they love. Jamie and Claire were very much "together" for me in this episode.  

Colum and Dougal were amazing - their relationship is one for the ages. Thank you writers for those beautifully written scenes. And Gary & Graham MUST work together again in something.

Watching that rotting flesh bag holding Mary's hand during the wedding made my skin crawl.  Thank you Tobias for creating a memorable character whose death can't come soon enough for me.  Loved Claire reminding him of his death date. When he asks her if she's o.k. with the possibility of him taking his sadistic pleasure with Mary, I so wanted Claire to say to him, "I'm sure you can control yourself... for the next few days."  And him beating on his dead brother's chest was WTF?? It was a curious OTT acting choice that took me right out of the moment.  

Loved Rosie Day in this episode.  The first moment when she turned around in the apothecary, I was shocked at how much Mary had changed/aged.  I could see everything on her face and thought Rosie Day was remarkable at showing us the toll caring for Alex had taken on her.  She looked bone weary. 

All in all, I was engaged throughout and didn't want it to end. Oh yeah, #saveMurtaugh, PLEEEESE!!!

[Wouldofshouldof]

I have such a visceral reaction every time I see BJR.  Well, OK, not more so than Claire or Jamie, but ya ken what I mean, aye?

9 hours ago, morgan said:

2 weeks is going to be a hard wait!

Two weeks - I'm already dreading the wait until S3! 

[TaurusRose]

I agree with the complimentary posts regarding this episode as my many likes will attest.  I have just a couple of comments to add...

I was glad Mary was able to voice her displeasure about Claire's interference in her relationship with Alex.  (Claire knew the broad strokes of history, but she didn't know the nuances of what occurred, which Mary's pregnancy underscored.) 

Loved Jamie's rage upon hearing that BJR was still in the mix.  (I feel you, JAMMF, why can't that fucker just DIE???)  But, Bravo! Claire did not just take off on her own and do things without consulting her husband. They were on the same page every step of the way. 

Damn, Gary Lewis was awesome portraying Colum's final days.  I felt his physical pain.  I was also happy that he was able to voice his mistakes to Claire.  Also, bravo, Caitriona Balfe.  She is wonderful portraying Claire's compassionate, gentle nature.  

Not only did the gentlemen bring it in the guardian scene, but I thought Graham McTavish's performance in Dougal's final scene with Colum was breathtakingly heartbreaking for its regret, bitterness and sorrow.  

Duncan Lacroix is also kicking butt.  I loved how Murtagh was ready to go medieval on BJR's ass.  I can never have too many reminders of how much Murtagh despises that bastard and wants to decorate with his innards.  Kudos to Murtagh for not backing down on his opinion of Frank Randall.  LOL Too damn funny.  But his offer to marry Mary shows the kind of heart that beats inside this gruff, no-nonsense warrior man.  I love Murtagh!  

I HATE, HATE, HATE BJR.  I know they tried to humanize him with the "Johnny" bits, but guess what?  Epic failure.  What a despicable beast masquerading as a human being.  I don't know how Claire could stomach sitting across from him, much less trying to reason with him.  I would have shoved that glass into the middle of his face had he talked that amount of shit to me about what he did to Jamie.  Evil, twisted...I won't subject y'all to an endless stream of curse words.  

Claire.  Claire.  Claire.  I know there may be some who can't appreciate Claire's viciousness when the situation calls for it, but I personally loved her expression when she told Jamie she was prepared to keep her promise made in Paris.  That coupled with Jamie's, "Remind me not to get on your bad side, Sassenach" was just the bee's knees.  LOL I am so in on Team Fraser.

BPC.  What a smirking, grinning imbecile.  That is all.

To the person who said no rape victim should ever have to comfort his/her rapist: I totally agree and wonder what DG was thinking when she included that foolishness in her book.  

Can't wait for the finale.  

Edited June 26, 2016 by taurusrose
Formatting. Yes, I'm that anal.

[WatchrTina]

I did a dumb thing -- this past week I read the book section that deals with Claire's treatment of Alex, Mary's wedding, and Claire's "deal" with Black Jack.  I completely agree with Diana when she says "put the book down and enjoy the show" but I couldn't stop myself.

Here's the good news.  I LOVED the episode.  I think it improves on the book in many ways  -- most of them already outlined by Dustbunny and others above.  I can't wait to watch it again.  I dread the two-week hiatus.  I love this show and am so grateful to all involved in creating it.

Here's something that I don't think has been addressed here yet.  I love that they played fast and loose with history (and with the book) creating this "Hail Mary" maneuver that might have worked, but didn't thanks to Prince Charles being an appallingly bad leader.  It gives our hero something active and hopeful to do right up until the eve of the disaster that is (was) Cullodon.  It was a brief spark of hope to offset the depression and hopelessness of the situation in the books (and in history) and it also adds yet another explanation for why the Jacobites were defeated at Culloden.  The Jacobite troops, already poorly fed and worn down, were further disheartened when their limited energy was spent in this failed attempt.  Good writing, that.

I'll also say that I LIKED the fact that Black Jack did not want to marry Mary and had to be pressured into it.  I liked the internal struggle that that created for him.  

I liked that Jack was drunk when he taunted Claire with his talk of Jamie and what happened at Wentworth.  He was sober in the book and his provoking Claire with that talk (which is even more explicit) even as he seeks her help for his brother -- well that is some questionable writing. 

I like that Colum appointed Jamie as Hamish's guardian and, let's face it, interim Laird.  It will make us question if Dougal's rage when he fights Jamie in the finale is really just about what he overhears.  It raises the specter that, once again, Dougal is going after his rival for purely selfish reasons.  That motivation is not present in the books -- Dougal is firmly ensconced as the head of Clan MacKenzie by this point --  and I like that this episode sets up that motivation in the show.

I find it interesting that Claire demands intel in return for medical treatment in the show and Jack questions the morality of that action.  Jack freely offers to spy for the Jacobites in the book.  I think the complexity of TVJack's moral compass is an improvement.

I'm not sure how I feel about the punching at the end.

ETA:  One more thought.  I always assumed that Dougal killed Colum in the book.  I presumed he smothered him with a pillow.  The poison that Claire gave Colum was untouched in the book.  Claire assumes nature took its course but I always assumed Dougal hastened it along so that he could bring the Mackenzies into the fight.  I'm fascinated that that is NOT what happened in the show.

Edited June 25, 2016 by WatchrTina

[morgan]

It's interesting, WatchrTina, I never once thought Dougal killed Collum in all of my many readings of DIA.  Never crossed my mind until Alastair brought it up during the DIA seminar over on TSATS.  It definitely led me to doubts, sounds plausible.  Will be curious to hear his response tonight because as I remember he never even considered it to not be a possibility.  

I loved the scenes with Colum and Dougal.  But I really do wish they had happened earlier, and I do wish Dougal was leading the Mackenzie men instead of what, he and Rupert being their only representative.  That just feels so off to me.  I actually wasn't crazy about Colum naming Jamie as his interim successor.  Might feel differently on my live view tonight.  

[morgan]

2 hours ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

 

Two weeks - I'm already dreading the wait until S3! 

I know it's long.  At least not as long as between books!  I didn't think I would ever forgive Diana for leaving Jem in that tunnel for 5 years!  

So I guess I will try to treat it like I do with the books and will prob re-read DIA (have avoided it all season because re-reading outlander during the first season worked against my enjoyment of the show).  Then I will drift into other things and maybe find another rabbit hole to fall down into for a while.  

[lianau]

I didn't like the Murtagh Jamie wedding switch . It goes back to my main criticism of the show, to avoid offending the ever offended they try to sanitize  every "problematic" content  but by doing so they also cut out every naturally occurring book conflict  between Jamie and Claire . And with that gone they have to recreate it out of thin air (or we'll end with a fluffy costume parade) and that doesn't always work well .

[maraleia]

I think the reason for the changes is due to our 2016 mindset which is different from when Diana wrote these books in the 90's while keeping to the time periods the show depicts hence the change from Jamie to Murtagh witnessing BJR and Mary's wedding. Maybe that's why Diana told all the book readers to put down the books and enjoy the show.

[Jodithgrace]

The episode I watched cut right off when the General announced that they had no choice, after Charles and his men "got lost." What did I miss? 

This was a pretty talky episode, especially after the past action packed ones, with a lot of men weeping and dying. But it was interesting. 

[toolazy]

5 hours ago, bluestocking said:

1. Interesting that they got Colum to let us know that Douglal and Geillis' baby survived and was adopted but said nothing about Geillis' survival.  Maybe Colum is not supposed to know.  In any case that keeps her reappearance in Jamaica a surprise for viewers.  Will Claire clue Roger in to his ancestry this season?

Colum might not know.  Remember that she blackmailed Dougal into rescuing her when he came to fetch the baby.  They burned the corpse of an old lady instead of Geillis, but the onlookers didn't know that.

 

2 hours ago, lianau said:

I didn't like the Murtagh Jamie wedding switch . It goes back to my main criticism of the show, to avoid offending the ever offended they try to sanitize  every "problematic" content  but by doing so they also cut out every naturally occurring book conflict  between Jamie and Claire . And with that gone they have to recreate it out of thin air (or we'll end with a fluffy costume parade) and that doesn't always work well .

To me, that has everything to do with the plausibility of Jamie being able to stay calm in the same room with BJR, much less be actually considerate and solicitous of him.  If they were concerned about our sensibilities, they wouldn't have shown BJR thrusting at Fergus.  

[Empressv]

Just popping in to say I really liked Gary Lewis' performance, both with Cait and Graham. He brings a wonderful intensity. And I could listen to him talk all day long -- the way he speaks his lines, with a little rhythm, reminds me of studying Chaucer. 

[Nightshade]

Hi, I'm a long time lurker, I came to this site after TWOP closed. I knew very little about Outlander, Starz had a free preview March 2015 I watched

the first two episodes of season one and I was hooked, I had to binge watch the rest(I don't like to binge). After that I found this thread and have coming here since that time. For me the Hail Mary episode was one of the best of season two, Colum, Dougal, and Jamie, and BJR and Claire, good writing, great acting.

[bluestocking]

According to this article in Variety, the idea of BJR punching his brother's corpse developed during filming.

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/outlander-recap-season-2-episode-12-the-hail-mary-alex-dead-jack-randall-colum-1201803718/

I'm glad they decided NOT to redeem BJR at all. 

[Archery]

Stellar episode.  Just wonderful.  Colum's sarcasm kills me every time; I rolled when he commented that  Dougal didn't really seem all that sad about his brother's impending demise.  And Claire's face when BJR asked her if Jamie ever told her what BJR did to him -- I teared up right along with her.  

Two contrasts really stood out to me.  One was the difference between BJR in the Garrison Commander, toying with Claire and reveling in his own utter depravity, and BJR, drunk and contemplating his blackness.  In the former, BJR was totally in control; here, Claire ruled that room.  

The second was the difference between Frank's grief and BJR's.  When Frank's marriage died before his eyes, he cried and pleaded, and just laid himself bare.  Only when he was alone did he succumb to his rage.  BJR just crossed the line of humanity and decency as in every other instance where emotion is concerned (like beating Jamie almost to death and breaking Jamie at Wentworth).  Menzies is amazing.

And I love Claire's IDGAF attitude that permeates everything. For the first time, she actually walked away from a sick person -- that's how close she is to the end of her tether.  She should have been included in some of those war councils -- I think she would have hauled off and smacked the Prince (marked him, indeed), and then told him to go F himself.  

And, oh, Murtagh.  

Edited June 26, 2016 by Archery

[CalamityBoPeep]

I enjoyed the episode, but agree... not enough Claire and Jamie. Though, in the scenes that we did get, Sam and Cait knocked it out of the park. So, I guess for me, the intimacy feels sustained because when they come together it's so powerful. Not sure how the non-book-readers respond to it though. I do wish the show would spend more time on them and explore the depth of the changes in them and in their relationship more. Maybe next season...

As for the deaths, I thought they were handled well, but the punching of the corpse was a little weird. At first I thought BJR was trying to do some primitive CPR thing... bashing Alex's chest to get the phlegm moved or something. But then he kept going, and I'm like "nope... that's not any CPR or medical thing I've ever seen before." Maybe the first punch was an effort to help, but after that he just lost it. Creepy. Who the hell beats up a corpse? Jack Randall does, I guess...

ETA: Murtagh. Never stop Murtaghing. Love that man. :-)

Edited June 26, 2016 by CalamityBoPeep

[AD55]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Here's the good news.  I LOVED the episode.  I think it improves on the book in many ways  -- most of them already outlined by Dustbunny and others above.  I can't wait to watch it again.  I dread the two-week hiatus.  I love this show and am so grateful to all involved in creating it.

Here's something that I don't think has been addressed here yet.  I love that they played fast and loose with history (and with the book) creating this "Hail Mary" maneuver that might have worked, but didn't thanks to Prince Charles being an appallingly bad leader.  It gives our hero something active and hopeful to do right up until the eve of the disaster that is (was) Cullodon.  It was a brief spark of hope to offset the depression and hopelessness of the situation in the books (and in history) and it also adds yet another explanation for why the Jacobites were defeated at Culloden.  The Jacobite troops, already poorly fed and worn down, were further disheartened when their limited energy was spent in this failed attempt.  Good writing, that

I liked this, too, especially because I think it's true to Jamie's character. He never gives up, ever--I loved that line, paraphrasing here, where he tells Claire it's not time to run up the white flag yet.

Random thoughts:

Until others mentioned it, I hadn't thought about Jamie and Claire having little screen time together. I was more conscious of how much they are always on the same page. Jamie's trying to prevent Cullodon, while Claire is in Inverness picking up medical supplies in the event, etc. I loved that Claire uses her power over BJR to get information for Jamie on troop movements. I think the scenes between Claire and BJR in this episode bookend their scenes in 106. We see how far Claire has come, from someone who kind of hopes BJR is redeemable to a woman who not only knows he isn't but doesn't give a damn about him. He has so little power over her that she doesn't think about using Alex to exact personal revenge. She cares only about how she can use him to help Jamie and the Jacobites. Of course, that doesn't mean she's averse to reminding him that he's going to be dead soon. She's capable of multitasking.

I also don't know how I feel about the punching scene except that I'm glad BJR isn't redeemed.

When Jamie tells Claire he hopes he never gets on her bad side, Sam uses the exact same intonation as in "Devil's Mark," when he tells Claire that it would have been a good deal simpler if she had only been a witch. I love these little scenes.

#savemurtagh to infinity and beyond.

Edited June 26, 2016 by AD55

[ulkis]

Quote

I think the reason for the changes is due to our 2016 mindset which is different from when Diana wrote these books in the 90's while keeping to the time periods the show depicts hence the change from Jamie to Murtagh witnessing BJR and Mary's wedding. Maybe that's why Diana told all the book readers to put down the books and enjoy the show.

I don't even think it was about that. I think the writers saw it as many people do that it just made no sense for Jamie to be remotely sympathetic to Randall.

I'm torn about Murtagh. I think they should probably stick to the book on that count but definitely won't complain if they change their mind.

Edited June 28, 2016 by ulkis

[WatchrTina]

Quote

I love that they played fast and loose with history (and with the book) creating this "Hail Mary" maneuver that might have worked, but didn't thanks to Prince Charles being an appallingly bad leader.  It gives our hero something active and hopeful to do right up until the eve of the disaster that is (was) Cullodon.  It was a brief spark of hope to offset the depression and hopelessness of the situation in the books (and in history) and it also adds yet another explanation for why the Jacobites were defeated at Culloden.  The Jacobite troops, already poorly fed and worn down, were further disheartened when their limited energy was spent in this failed attempt.  Good writing, that.

I'm quoting myself above because it turns out I was wrong.  According to Alastair (the "Scot" half of The-Scot-and-the-Sassenach podcast) that bit of misfortune and poor leadership actually happened. 

Other than learning that, I didn't much care for the TSatS podcast this week.  I liked this episode.  I thought it had amazing character beats and it set the stage for the finale.  I thought it was WAY better than last week's episode (the one with the glaring plot-holes that become more and more difficult to stomach on each subsequent viewing.) TSatS were much more critical.  Oh well, different strokes for different folks.  

They did make one good point that I had failed to notice.  I approved of Jamie NOT being present at Mary's wedding so I'm glad Murtagh took his place (because yes, Claire should NOT be there unattended) but TSatS wondered how Mary felt at seeing Murtagh again.  After all, the last time she saw him he had just cut off the head of her god-father.  It's a fair question.

[ulkis]

I don't really think she even registeted his presence completely. But Claire probably filled her in on what happened so she probably didn't mind.

[toolazy]

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

 

They did make one good point that I had failed to notice.  I approved of Jamie NOT being present at Mary's wedding so I'm glad Murtagh took his place (because yes, Claire should NOT be there unattended) but TSatS wondered how Mary felt at seeing Murtagh again.  After all, the last time she saw him he had just cut off the head of her god-father.  It's a fair question.

Did anyone get the feeling that she had anything resembling affection for the Duke? Especially after learning that he was responsible (indirectly) for her being raped?  Why would she be anything but grateful to Murtaugh for ridding the world of that man?  I'm glad I don't listen to that podcast because it would probably annoy me.

[Nidratime]

I agree. I didn't get the impression Mary gave a crap about her Godfather. She was being kept "prisoner" in his house waiting for another unwanted marriage and the fact that he was implicated -- even if it hadn't been his aim -- in her rape probably didn't sit well with her, to say the least.

[Moya the Leviathan]

Dearest Black Jack Randall: What a magnificent bastard you are.  You betray the British position completely accurately (which is maybe not your usual MO), you torment Claire with your unrepentant sense of evil , you completely frustrate Murtaugh by refusing to take any bait from him, you break Mary with a glance (ok, that was kind of a gimme) and you scare the shit out of the audience, while simultaneously, Tobias Menzies is busy seducing the audience.

Dearest Dougal McKenzie:  What a magnificent bastard you are.  Step right up to the battle with your brother and your nephew and remember it's all about you.  That was an awesome speech, with a lifetime of regret and resentment in the midst of the Scottish war you always wanted and are reasonably suited for.  Meanwhile Graham McTavish is busy seducing the audience, now that he's not leering over Claire.

 Dearest Claire Beauchamp Randall Fraser. Also in the running for magnificent bastard.    physician-assisted suicide of a clan leader, poking Black Jack three times for vital military secrets, marrying that little chit and reminding him about his date with destiny are possibly signs that Geillis wasn't the craziest witch in Scotland.  You may not have had much screen time with Jamie this episode, but the way you promised to bleed Black Jack if history didn't turn out the way you remembered, utterly seduced that husband of yours.  

Dearest Murtaugh Fitzgibbons Fraser: You poor bastard.  How could such a quiet romantic muckle up an imaginary proposal that badly?  Not yet realizing that the bloody head of the Duke of Sandringham is a piss-poor way to start a romance with Mary Hawkins, you go right on to verbally pulling the girl's pigtails.  I guess Duncan Lacroix was too busy seducing the audience to run off to Gretna Green the way that all bad-boy Scotsmen do in classic romance novels.  

So not looking forward to Droughtlander.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, toolazy said:

Did anyone get the feeling that she had anything resembling affection for the Duke? Especially after learning that he was responsible (indirectly) for her being raped?  Why would she be anything but grateful to Murtaugh for ridding the world of that man?  I'm glad I don't listen to that podcast because it would probably annoy me.

This.  I don't listen to any of those after show recaps because I rarely agree with any of the hosts' opinions, and I don't like being annoyed by them.  

[IntrovertGal]

5 hours ago, ulkis said:

I saw it as Randall being angry at his brother for dying, and for "making" him marry Mary. 

I don't even think it was about that. I think the writers saw it as many people do that it just made no sense for Jamie to be remotely sympathetic to Randall.

I'm torn about Murtagh. I think they should probably stick to the book on that count but definitely won't complain if they change their mind.

Agreed! BJR being BJR saw no other way to express his grief and rage other than through violence. Despite what Alex may think about BJR having a gentle and tender side, the sadistic evil part of BJR will always win out. That's just who he is. At least he is self-aware enough to recognise that.

I just rewatched the episode and was again struck by the sheer brilliance of the scene between Claire and BJR in the pub. Both Tobias Menzies and Caitriona Balfe gave an absolutely excellent performance, so rich in subtext and history between these two characters.

Edited June 26, 2016 by IntrovertGal

[Jodithgrace]

Ok..I did have a little chuckle during the episode. Remember the 1980 movie Airplane? At one point Ted Stryker is trying to tell his life story to a series of passengers, and it is apparently so boring that they kill themselves rather than listen to it.  Well, that's what came to my mind when Dougal, having gone on and on about how Colum's illness affected HIM, turns to actually look at his brother and sees that he's committed suicide rather than listen to him blather on. In a way I think it was Colum having the last laugh.

[Haleth]

I thought it worked much better having Murtagh in the BJR/Mary/Alex scenes than Jamie.  Jamie had more important things to do than stand around watching Alex die and Jack seethe.  Yes, Jamie is perfect, a saint, but it never seemed right for him to be a witness to the Randall family drama in the book after all BJR had done to him.  (And vice versa, remember their duel?)  Jamie gave in to Claire once (in France), letting Jack live, but having him submit a second time was beyond what any man, even a saint, could stand.  Much better to have him off trying to stop a war.  Plus the scene gave us the lovely offer by Murtagh to marry the girl.  (Mark me, writers, you cannot kill off Murtagh.  He must be around in future seasons.)

The juxtaposing of the two pairs of brothers was well done, even though the scenes with the Randalls were a bit on the melodramatic side.  But as usual TM rose about the material.  Black Jack's inner conflict regarding Alex's plea that he marry Mary was palpable, almost humanizing the monster.  Then there was the final confrontation between the MacKenzie brothers.  McTavish and Lewis were outstanding.  I loved that Dougal hugged Colum in the end.  So much regret and so much left unsaid. 

If I never hear "mark me" again it will be too soon.

I hate the title, Hail Mary.  That is such a modern term, it doesn't fit at all with the 18th c setting.

Two weeks?  Two weeks?  Stupid holiday.

[CatMack]

I think it's kind of unfair to assume any time a change is made it's to avoid offending the audience.  Especially since not two episodes ago that assumption was made about Jamie exposing Claire to John and the writers actually confirmed they changed it because they added Claire's PTSD storyline and that gave the existing story a tone that didn't exist in the book and made what happened in the book not fit as well.  Look, I like Gabaldon's writing enough that I have stuck through 8 books, and will stick through however many more she writes.  But she is not a perfect writer.  She makes mistakes, whether she would ever see them that way or not.  A lot of people in this thread apparently had a problem with Jamie being at the wedding because it felt out of character and just plain illogical, not because it was offensive.  Writers of adaptations change things.  These specific writers have changed things for a number of reasons, and people are free to not like those changes, whether it's because they're book purists or just don't think it's good writing.  I've certainly disliked some of their changes.  But after they kept the spanking scene, one of the most controversial scene of the entire series, and devoted a full third of an episode to graphically showing Jamie's rape, I think it's ridiculous to assume the writers are afraid of offending their audience and are making changes based on trying to sanitize the book contents.  

This was a good episode, though not my favorite.  I'm always happy when shows are willing to have slower episodes that focus more on character, because I've seen the opposite happen (shows that forget their characters in favor of plot point after plot point after plot point happening at breakneck speed without any contemplation or proper setup) and the results are terrible (*coughOnceUponATimecough* *coughthe100season3cough*).  I'd rather shows air on the side of giving us too much character focus than too much fast moving plot.  I do think the episode dragged just a touch, but only just a touch.  There were a couple individual scenes that just seemed to last a long time, and I wish they'd shaved maybe 5 minutes off the existing episode by tightening up the editing, and then replaced those 5 minutes with...IDK, more Fergus or Rupert maybe, or more Jamie/Claire.  The pacing issues were relatively minor, is what I'm trying to say, but they did keep this episode from being a favorite.  

I don't think Randall is as one note of a character as, say, Ramsay on Game of Thrones (that is a character who LITERALLY has no personality besides "sadist who will always do the most sadistic thing possible in any situation"), but I don't find him as interesting or complex as the writers seem to, and despite thinking Tobias Menzies is a great actor, I am glad the end is near for that character.  I can handle the occasional flashback to Culloden if they keep that from the book, and I actually look forward to them hopefully keeping the flashbacks to Claire's life with Frank post time travel that show he's not a perfect saint because I think they made him look waaaaay too flawless in season 1.  But I am very ready for BJR to be very dead.

[Archery]

Hail Mary is from the Bible, spoken to the mother of the Savior of the world.  Its direct parallel here is Claire's machinations to make sure that Mary's baby is a Randall, tucked safely onto the proper family tree so that Frank exists.  That it has a modern meaning is simply a double entendre. The title just reflects the, "Hey, Mary, please agree to this whacked out plan because your baby is the key to everything," nature of the proposal.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Archery

[Haleth]

If the title had simply been Hail, Mary, it would be more fitting to me, but THE Hail Mary (no comma) refers to Jamie's somewhat reckless plan to change history, and (to a lesser extent) Claire's plan to ensure Frank will be born.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Haleth

[peacefrog]

1 hour ago, CatMack said:

I think it's kind of unfair to assume any time a change is made it's to avoid offending the audience.  Especially since not two episodes ago that assumption was made about Jamie exposing Claire to John and the writers actually confirmed they changed it because they added Claire's PTSD storyline and that gave the existing story a tone that didn't exist in the book and made what happened in the book not fit as well.  Look, I like Gabaldon's writing enough that I have stuck through 8 books, and will stick through however many more she writes.  But she is not a perfect writer.  She makes mistakes, whether she would ever see them that way or not.  A lot of people in this thread apparently had a problem with Jamie being at the wedding because it felt out of character and just plain illogical, not because it was offensive.  Writers of adaptations change things.  These specific writers have changed things for a number of reasons, and people are free to not like those changes, whether it's because they're book purists or just don't think it's good writing.  I've certainly disliked some of their changes.  But after they kept the spanking scene, one of the most controversial scene of the entire series, and devoted a full third of an episode to graphically showing Jamie's rape, I think it's ridiculous to assume the writers are afraid of offending their audience and are making changes based on trying to sanitize the book contents.  

This was a good episode, though not my favorite.  I'm always happy when shows are willing to have slower episodes that focus more on character, because I've seen the opposite happen (shows that forget their characters in favor of plot point after plot point after plot point happening at breakneck speed without any contemplation or proper setup) and the results are terrible (*coughOnceUponATimecough* *coughthe100season3cough*).  I'd rather shows air on the side of giving us too much character focus than too much fast moving plot.  I do think the episode dragged just a touch, but only just a touch.  There were a couple individual scenes that just seemed to last a long time, and I wish they'd shaved maybe 5 minutes off the existing episode by tightening up the editing, and then replaced those 5 minutes with...IDK, more Fergus or Rupert maybe, or more Jamie/Claire.  The pacing issues were relatively minor, is what I'm trying to say, but they did keep this episode from being a favorite.  

I don't think Randall is as one note of a character as, say, Ramsay on Game of Thrones (that is a character who LITERALLY has no personality besides "sadist who will always do the most sadistic thing possible in any situation"), but I don't find him as interesting or complex as the writers seem to, and despite thinking Tobias Menzies is a great actor, I am glad the end is near for that character.  I can handle the occasional flashback to Culloden if they keep that from the book, and I actually look forward to them hopefully keeping the flashbacks to Claire's life with Frank post time travel that show he's not a perfect saint because I think they made him look waaaaay too flawless in season 1.  But I am very ready for BJR to be very dead.

I'm just going to quote all of this because it's exactly how I feel. Except I don't think they have shown Frank as sainted. I think they show him pretty flawed, more than the books.

I had a few minor issues. Why make it the day before Culloden suddenly? Why compress the timeline that much? Maybe it will make finale more tense? I had a lot of trouble understanding dialogue. It wasn't accents. It was mumbling, gasping and wheezing. 

I have realized that I really enjoy Ira Steven Behr's scripts the most. He's the most consistent to me. Obviously he enjoys writing for BJR, but I think he has always done Jamie and Jamie/Claire right. He just doesn't get the episodes with a lot of them in it. He also writes episodes that are a bit deeper and slowed down, expanding from the book.

I do hope next season they don't rush to put J&C back together, but not to long either! The angst is some of my favorite storytelling. 

[Wouldofshouldof]

4 hours ago, IntrovertGal said:

I just rewatched the episode and was again struck by the sheer brilliance of the scene between Claire and BJR in the pub. Both Tobias Menzies and Caitriona Balfe gave an absolutely excellent performance, so rich in subtext and history between these two characters.

People have mentioned before how Menzies does such a good job bringing physical differences to the roles of BJR and Frank.  I loved his little head bobs to show he was drunk in this scene.

1 hour ago, CatMack said:

Look, I like Gabaldon's writing enough that I have stuck through 8 books, and will stick through however many more she writes.  But she is not a perfect writer.  She makes mistakes, whether she would ever see them that way or not.

So much word.  In the after-the-show discussion of The Fox's Lair, Kenney (I think it was her) mentioned that they added Laoghaire to that ep because otherwise things that happened later with her wouldn't make sense.  I LOL'd at that, because basically she was saying that Gabaldon's writing, in that instance, didn't work.