Season Four Discussion

[Lady Calypso]

So, even with this more cluttered fourth season, it's definitely my second favourite season (I still think season 2 was pretty good). I also think there were some standouts in this season, so I definitely want to talk about a few of them:

1. Lolly: Lori Petty did a really good job with Lolly. The paranoid, the implied schizophrenia, the conspiracy theories, and the inevitable meltdown into realization was all really well done. Seeing as last season, she was mostly brought in as the crazy one and one that Alex would be paranoid about as the hitman/hitwoman, they really grew her character this season and it didn't disappoint. Her flashbacks also were just astonishing. The actress who played young Lolly captured Lori Petty's mannerisms to a tee, where I even questioned if Lori Petty was playing young Lolly. I was very invested in her scenes, and I do think they didn't overuse her. They explored her story, but then let her be in the background for the second half until the body was discovered. Plus, she helped me like Healy for one episode, which is a feat in itself. 

2. Healy: Speaking of Healy, he did some growing this season. He's still a racist, misogynistic asshole, don't get me wrong, but his scenes with Lolly allowed me to understand him a little better.  His own reflection on his mother and her mental illness allowed him to bond with Lolly and help her out. I don't know if this growth will change him next season into being a better person, but I actually semi-enjoyed his scenes. He wasn't in the season that much except for his scenes with Lolly, but I was ok with that. I still love to hate him, but I will say Michael Hamey did an excellent job with what he was given.

3. Morello: So, Morello began rapidly declining back into her obsessive, stalker self, but it was so interesting to watch. I think my favourite Morello moment was near the end of the season, when she was by the fence with Nicky and broke down, telling her that she was watching herself revert back to the person that got landed in jail and she couldn't stop herself. It was just a powerful moment of reflection for her. I can't deny that she did an excellent job with her paranoid over her sister and Vince, until she absolutely exploded. Vince's realization that she's truly crazy does not bode well for their relationship next season. But Yael did a fantastic job showcasing Morello reverting. 

4. Maria: There was a lot of growth with Maria becoming her own kingpin in her group. Although there wasn't a huge development with her by the end of the season, it was still good to watch her flashbacks and see how she met Yadriel. I think the actress did a great job as well that's worth mentioning. Her character took a darker turn this season, but one that really worked.

5. Pennsatucky: I was surprised that we got a full story arc of her dealing with her rape. Honestly, I was fascinated through the whole thing, as it gave her excellent character moments. She has grown the most since season 1, easily. Seeing her character with the other members of 'her' group (at least her old group of Leanne and Angie, plus the new racist girls) got me to really consider how far she's come. Nicky even said herself that Pennsatucky is probably the only person who's changed for the better in prison. Having her be so angry and so afraid of Coates, but then coming to realize that she has to heal by forgiving him, and having Boo mad at her for that, got her one of the best moments from her on the show. I loved the pain versus suffering scene. Of course, Coates proved himself to still be a creepy rapist by the finale, but hopefully she can see that next season and she won't get into any relationship with him. I just think she'll get an even more emotional story arc next season, and I can't wait.

Honorable mentions go to Poussey, Soso, Alex, Aleida, Caputo, Piper, Suzanne, and Bayley, who all got their minor character arcs, whether for the better or the worst. And Nicky's return has to get a special shout out, because she really changed in the half of a season that she was here. 

[RCharter]

It was interesting that they had Cindy (Tova), and Alison Abdullah (her bunkmate) as a Jew and a Muslim fighting over limited territory in the bunk?

Just another shout out to current world events done in a quirky way.

[RCharter]

34 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, even with this more cluttered fourth season, it's definitely my second favourite season (I still think season 2 was pretty good). I also think there were some standouts in this season, so I definitely want to talk about a few of them:

2. Healy: Speaking of Healy, he did some growing this season. He's still a racist, misogynistic asshole, don't get me wrong, but his scenes with Lolly allowed me to understand him a little better.  His own reflection on his mother and her mental illness allowed him to bond with Lolly and help her out. I don't know if this growth will change him next season into being a better person, but I actually semi-enjoyed his scenes. He wasn't in the season that much except for his scenes with Lolly, but I was ok with that. I still love to hate him, but I will say Michael Hamey did an excellent job with what he was given.

The scary thing about Healy is that even when he is trying to be nice, he ends up fucking it up because he is sexist and overbearing.  He does seem to have this fear of abandonment that stems from his mother.  He is going to care for Lolly, but she can't even socialize with other inmates, but is stuck at a table in a corner by herself so Healy can control her interactions.  And she can't interact with anyone but him.  He is always suffocating someone.  In his flashback he goes out with a girl on one date and he is too pushy.   When he found that lady that he thought was his mother, she couldn't leave the diner.  

Sometimes I think there is hope for Healy, but I'm less inclined to think so, because he is an unhealthy and controlling man.  And its all under a veneer of kindness and helpfulness.  

I think he picked a major (social work) that would help put him in touch with the most helpless people of society so he could control them.  The fact that he picked someone he was counseling to date just seems wrong.  He knows all her secrets, all her vulnerabilities......and I'm sure the appointment after their date was super uncomfortable.  I guess this season was about how much the people in charge are really as bad, if not worse than the prisoners.  And but for luck, any of those guards could end up in prison.  

Healy especially seems like the sort that may have some "girlfriends" buried in his basement when they tried to leave.

[Aja]

1 hour ago, RCharter said:

It was interesting that they had Cindy (Tova), and Alison Abdullah (her bunkmate) as a Jew and a Muslim fighting over limited territory in the bunk?

Just another shout out to current world events done in a quirky way.

Clever catch! 

[stagmania]

4 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

- I liked the exploration of new/different relationships this season (Alex/Lolly, Poussey/Soso, Taystee/Caputo, etc.) but this sometimes came at the expense of existing relationships that I really missed. Most notably, was the Taystee/Poussey friendship. They were my favourite pairing by far, with so much fun and warmth between them, and they barely spoke two words to each other all season, which made Poussey’s death all the more sad for me.

I felt the absence of this relationship so much, and I do think it weakened Taystee's reaction to her death a bit. Poussey spent most of her time with Soso and just didn't seem that connected to anyone else this season. Understandable given her fresh romance, but a little disappointing. Which reminds me, I was sad that Soso was off mourning by herself rather than with Poussey's friends. She was made to feel so unwelcome, she didn't even try to seek comfort with them.

[stagmania]

On the larger discussion about the season: I agree that it got very dark, but I don't really understand why that's off-putting to longtime viewers. Tragedy and trauma has been baked into this story from the very beginning, and I thought they still did a good job of sprinkling a liberal dose of humor throughout for moments of levity. Given the decision last year to pursue the privatization plot and the myriad consequences of that change, keeping things light and easy wouldn't have been true to the story they wanted to tell.

This show reflects so many of the biggest issues going in our real world context right now, and has a strong point of view about social justice and the moral complexity inherent in those issues. I think it's an important and valuable contribution to the discussion.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

I was sad that Soso was off mourning by herself rather than with Poussey's friends. She was made to feel so unwelcome, she didn't even try to seek comfort with them.

So far it's been less than a day. The night of they were on lock down, and Sosa is in the "burbs" dorm and Poussey's friends were in the "ghetto" dorm.

[The Mighty Peanut]

What I loved: 

Taystee. 'Nuff said.

What I liked:

Poussey (alive) and SoSo. Everything with Poussey, really, from her talks with Judy, to the gentle way her relationship changed within her social circle, and especially her flashback. She matured in a really beautiful way that was very apparent, yet subtle at the same time. Even though her death gutted me and I wish she were still alive...I appreciate when an actress is so good that I care enough about a fictional character to be genuinely devastated by her loss. 

Judy King. It's nice to see a horrible person being horrible in a way that doesn't involve rape or weird shit with mice. I enjoyed her machinations and fake June-October romance with Black Cindy, and I sincerely hope that Martha Stewart had similar lesbian relationships (real or fake) and a roommate who took advantage of her celebrity status to get a seltzer water dispenser. 

I liked the irony of Piscatello being the biggest perpetrator of promoting a violent gang-like mentality among his fellow abusive COs a.k.a. "brothers in blue" juxtaposed with his total contempt for prison gangs and his absolute conviction that he is above those who "do crime". I want to know what he did to get in trouble at max. He commands the respect that Pornstache never could even though he's just as oblivious (if not more so) to the fact that he is being rewarded for abusing his authority, and is even more dangerous because of it. 

Everything Red and Nicky, as usual. I liked how Red tried so hard to reevaluate her position on handling addiction among her loved ones. It broke my heart when she said Trisha was buried in the prison cemetery with her name spelled incorrectly. And Nicky....she's one of the few people I've seen who can demonstrate all the worst elements of addiction--lying, stealing, manipulating the people she cares about most--and have an fierce humanity and kindness about her that Piper, her equal in terms of upbringing and economic status, has never really grasped.

What I didn't like:

Maritza's entire story from flashback to present day. I understand her character is intended to be flighty and vapid. I know it's an intentional contrast against the world wary old school Latina convicts, and I felt terrible that she had to eat a live mouse. But for me she isn't comic relief so much as someone who leaves me dumber for having watched one of her scenes. 

I'm sad about this one because I loved Suzanne, but she and Lolly had essentially the same plot, and Suzanne's was excessive. I think the show has done a pretty good job of depicting the problem of incarcerating the mentally ill rather than treating them, and that Suzanne already had a fleshed out backstory that was tragic enough. IMO between the nature of her crimes and the amount of times she's flown off the handle, she would have been reclassified and sent to a more secure environment. Through no fault of her own she is not receiving proper mental health treatment and as long as that's the case she's a danger to herself and others. 

The meth heads and skinheads. They were just unnecessary filler. "Insert Racists Here: Conflict Ensues." It felt fake to me. 

Alex. You had pictures of yourself taken with keys up your vagina while playing dead, then killed someone and chopped up the body, and then smoked crack, and you're still boring. Everyone else on the show had some kind of negative or positive catharsis. FFS, Coates raped somebody and there were still moments when I temporarily forgot I hate his guts. 

What I didn't care about one way or another:

Piper who? 

Edited June 21, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[SFOITNB Fan]

My biggest question from this season is how can Alex live with herself for letting Lolly go down for the murder?  Lolly did the right thing by protecting Alex from the hitman, but Lolly didn't actually commit the murder.  Both Lolly and Alex thought the hitman was dead, but it was Alex who discovered he was still alive and did the actual killing.  As crazy as Lolly is, there's no way she should be in the psych ward for murder.  I predict Alex will "come clean" next season.  Whether Lolly gets out of psych is a different question.

[stagmania]

49 minutes ago, Francie said:

So far it's been less than a day. The night of they were on lock down, and Sosa is in the "burbs" dorm and Poussey's friends were in the "ghetto" dorm.

Right, and then the lockdown ended and Poussey's friends gathered together while Soso drank hooch by herself and cried. They mentioned that Suzanne was ostensibly going to find her and invite her to come sit with them, so I'm not trying to say they did anything wrong. I'm just saying it made me sad that Soso's instinct was to be alone because she didn't think she had anyone to be with who would get it.

[SFOITNB Fan]

7 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

What I didn't like:

I'm sad about this one because I loved Suzanne, but she and Lolly had essentially the same plot, and Suzanne's was excessive. I think the show has done a pretty good job of depicting the problem of incarcerating the mentally ill rather than treating them, and that Suzanne already had a fleshed out backstory that was tragic enough. IMO between the nature of her crimes and the amount of times she's flown off the handle, she would have been reclassified and sent to a more secure environment. Through no fault of her own she is not receiving proper mental health treatment and as long as that's the case she's a danger to herself and others. 

Excellent, post, The Mighty Peanut.  The only thing I want to mention is that I believe Suzanne isn't mentally ill, but most likely suffers from autism spectrum disorder.  It's a social disorder, but not a mental illness.  There's a big difference, even though some of the symptoms overlap.  Her social awkwardness at Litchfield and the flashbacks to her poorly developed social skills as a kid/young adult point to autism.  The way she hits herself on the head when frustrated is a very common feature among autistic children/adults, along with hitting one's head against the wall.  Lolly, on the other hand, is most likely schizophrenic.  I love both characters.  I hope they have long lives ahead of them in Gen Pop in Seasons 5, 6 and 7.

7 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

 

[The Mighty Peanut]

Quote

Excellent, post, The Mighty Peanut.  The only thing I want to mention is that I believe Suzanne isn't mentally ill, but most likely suffers from autism spectrum disorder.  It's a social disorder, but not a mental illness.  There's a big difference, even though some of the symptoms overlap.  Her social awkwardness at Litchfield and the flashbacks to her poorly developed social skills as a kid/young adult point to autism.  The way she hits herself on the head when frustrated is a very common feature among autistic children/adults, along with hitting one's head against the wall.  Lolly, on the other hand, is most likely schizophrenic.  I love both characters.  I hope they have long lives ahead of them in Gen Pop in Seasons 5, 6 and 7.

Thanks. I guess I kind of ran with some of the weirder things she's done (mostly from when she was trying to court Piper) and some of her more violent outbursts, and landed on mental illness. You're right, though. She doesn't understand how to make or maintain proper eye contact, or how to act/not act around grieving people. The head hitting and hair pulling. She and Lolly do have in common that they should be treated instead of locked up, though, even if Suzanne's treatment wouldn't fall under the umbrella of mental illness. 

[kdm07]

22 hours ago, SFOITNB Fan said:

My biggest question from this season is how can Alex live with herself for letting Lolly go down for the murder?  Lolly did the right thing by protecting Alex from the hitman, but Lolly didn't actually commit the murder.  Both Lolly and Alex thought the hitman was dead, but it was Alex who discovered he was still alive and did the actual killing.  As crazy as Lolly is, there's no way she should be in the psych ward for murder.  I predict Alex will "come clean" next season.  Whether Lolly gets out of psych is a different question.

Unless Red, Frieda or Piper stop her, I think Alex will confess too. She still seemed pretty broken up over the whole thing and I think she ended up even liking Lolly despite all of her craziness.

[Catznip]

Not sure how I feel about this season, by far s1 was the best. This season I have mixed emotions... A little hard core and disgusting (eating rodents and rape), creepy guards, and weird SLs.  Piper looked awful, not sure what's to come for Drya and why Poussey??? Highlights for me: 1min connection between Piper and Alex, Poussey and SoSo, Reds heartfelt breakdown for Nicky and Sophia out of the hole. Still not enough for me to say s4 was anything better than previous seasons. And what's up with the character played by Ruby Rose, pretty much non-existence?

[JessePinkman]

17 minutes ago, Catznip said:

And what's up with the character played by Ruby Rose, pretty much non-existence?

Good riddance IMO. Terrible actress playing the thinnest of characters. She honestly reminded me of Poochie from The Simpsons, so hot, too cool for school, etc. No thanks.

[shantown]

I hope Chang enjoyed her hot shower, because that was her only scene all season. (Unless I missed her elsewhere?)

[Aja]

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

Good riddance IMO. Terrible actress playing the thinnest of characters. She honestly reminded me of Poochie from The Simpsons, so hot, too cool for school, etc. No thanks.

So agree. I hate stunt casting in general and she was a real bomb, as evidenced by the fact that we were treated to an extended scene of her buck naked so that we'd forget she can't act and her character wasn't interesting. Given that I am a gay woman, I assume I'm in the demographic they were pandering to with that stunt, but it sure didn't work on me. One extremely brief scene with her was more than enough for this season. I'm much happier when Diane Guerrero or Samira Wiley are on the screen.

Shallow note: There are some episodes where Taylor Schilling's skin is so bad, it's distracting. That's mean probably, but there we go.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Aja

[Catznip]

3 hours ago, Aja said:

Shallow note: There are some episodes where Taylor Schilling's skin is so bad, it's distracting. That's mean probably, but there we go.

Shallow but true. I don't know if that was intended or just bad skin. 

IMO, I think RR is hot and cute minus the tats, she resembles a young Angelina Jolie. 

[Aja]

48 minutes ago, Catznip said:

Shallow but true. I don't know if that was intended or just bad skin. 

IMO, I think RR is hot and cute minus the tats, she resembles a young Angelina Jolie. 

Normally, Ruby Rose's aesthetic is directly up my alley. It just bothered me so much what OITNB did with her, it turned me off completely. I felt talked down to. *sniffs* In all fairness, she is a very beautiful woman. 

[Catznip]

Just now, Aja said:

Normally, Ruby Rose's aesthetic is directly up my alley. It just bothered me so much what OITNB did with her, it turned me off completely. I felt talked down to. *sniffs* In all fairness, she is a very beautiful woman. 

Yes this show didn't do RR any justice. Would have loved to see her character grow. 

[J.D.]

Man, it looks like I need to binge watch Season 4 again this weekend.  I didn't get  nearly the level of depth out of the episodes that the rest of you seem to have gotten.  

That's what I get for multi-tasking.  I need tune everything out and just focus on the show.

[Dancingjaneway]

I would love to see a good interview of Jenji Kohan about this season. There are a LOT of pissed off people(especially women of color, lesbians and woc lesbians) and I get it and I myself am still kind of re-thinking my original thoughts on the season. There's so much going on and it was a chaotic season. I also have to wonder if as a white viewer I'm not seeing things in the same light and if that means what Jenji did this season was disgusting or good writing. 

[RCharter]

11 hours ago, shantown said:

I hope Chang enjoyed her hot shower, because that was her only scene all season. (Unless I missed her elsewhere?)

love Chang....always happy with her being in any scene.

[stagmania]

10 hours ago, Dancingjaneway said:

I would love to see a good interview of Jenji Kohan about this season. There are a LOT of pissed off people(especially women of color, lesbians and woc lesbians) and I get it and I myself am still kind of re-thinking my original thoughts on the season. There's so much going on and it was a chaotic season. I also have to wonder if as a white viewer I'm not seeing things in the same light and if that means what Jenji did this season was disgusting or good writing. 

Samira Wiley gave an interview to The Hollywood Reporter in which she addressed some of the controversy around Poussey's death and the show's intentions with the storyline. In particular, I think it's notable that Poussey being a POC was part of the point of this story-they were specifically alluding to Black Lives Matter and Eric Garner's death, which wouldn't have worked with a white character. And as has been pointed out by others in this forum, Poussey was really the closest thing the show had to a purely good character who everyone would be devastated to lose, and that definitely informed their decision to center this story around her.

I completely understand where some fans are coming from with their feelings of disgust, and I think if you slot her death into the larger pattern of female and specifically WOC and queer deaths on TV this year, it's part of an upsetting trend. But I also think the context of each show matters, and on OitNB, nearly all the important characters are women, most are WOC and many are queer (as are most of the romances on the show), so this is definitely not a case of a token minority being killed off, as it is on many of those other shows. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by stagmania

[JessePinkman]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

I completely understand where some fans are coming from with their feelings of disgust, and I think if you slot her death into the larger pattern of female and specifically WOC and queer deaths on TV this year, it's part of an upsetting trend. But I also think the context of each show matters, and on OitNB, nearly all the important characters are women, most are WOC and many are queer (as are most of the romances on the show), so this is definitely not a case of a token minority being killed off, as it is on many of those other shows. 

Exactly, unlike those other shows Poussey was one of many and not the token. The other deaths have been largely treated as jokes (Empire) or afterthoughts (The Vampire Diaries). Poussey's death led directly to a prison uprising. This will reverberate for seasons to come, I don't think any other show can say that.

[heatherchandler]

22 hours ago, Aja said:

 

Shallow note: There are some episodes where Taylor Schilling's skin is so bad, it's distracting. That's mean probably, but there we go.

Her skin looks terrible.  I can't tell if it is really bad and she is covering it up, or if they are purposely trying to make it look bad, like a wardrobe choice.

19 hours ago, Catznip said:

 

IMO, I think RR is hot and cute minus the tats, she resembles a young Angelina Jolie. 

You bite your tongue!  (or whatever the typing equivalent would be)  She does not look like gorgeous Angelina!

Speaking of gorgeous... what I would give to look like Maritza.  I have found myself waiting for scenes with her, just to look at her.  And I am a straight woman.

[Catznip]

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

You bite your tongue!  (or whatever the typing equivalent would be)  She does not look like gorgeous Angelina!

Speaking of gorgeous... what I would give to look like Maritza.  I have found myself waiting for scenes with her, just to look at her.  And I am a straight woman.

Lol... But RR is one of the cuties on the show. I agree Maritza is hot, I was hoping to see the character develope more.

[DianeDobbler]

I think Taylor Schilling was really tan when she got back - I remember photos of her vacationing in Hawaii with Uzo Aduba (Suzanne), Yael Stone (Morello) and Adrienne C. Moore (Cindy). I just think she turned very sallow - I noticed her skin as well, but it just seemed tired and the color kind of messed up, as opposed to broken out or any other kind of skin stuff.

I don't have any big issues with the characters on the show - I think Piper and Alex "belong together" but that relationship can pace itself along in small doses as far as I'm concerned. They 'fit', but they're not that interesting. I probably enjoyed Alex/Lolly the most out of everything this season, and Morello the least - at least, Morello and her obsession. I don't think she back-slid. I think she never ever got a grip, despite last season's breakdown when she was exposed as a stalker. Whatever, it's incredibly annoying. I will shout out to the actress who played her sister, who made it BEYOND clear that she'd slept with Morello's husband (although WHY she did, God knows) while maintaining an innocent and reassuring façade. She just couldn't help being in a good mood, smiley and a bit evasive.

Someone I just don't enjoy much at all is Taystee. The actress just doesn't do much for me. And, as ever, the meth girls can go, and so can the white supermacists. They're all equally irritating/uninteresting. Pennsatucky was the only one out of that crowd to make a mark, and that's because she's played by the best actress from what is meant to represent that sector.

I don't MIND Suzanne so much, but I think the character has been mishandled, and the material she gets doesn't play to the actress's strengths. I think it's supposed to be adorable, endearing, scary, incredibly empathetic, etc. but I don't find her all that terrific in drama OR pathos. Despite her character's limitations, I enjoy her most when she gets to be smart in a subtle, sideways way, and when she's processing something.

I always enjoy Cindy. I think Adrienne C. Moore has a lot of really good technique as an actress, as well as knowing how to be emotionally truthful, so she can handle a really wide range of material, and is funny without being cartoonish.

Not enough of Nicky - her drug relapse seemed a little blink and you'll miss it - all better! But I love Natasha Lyonne. She looked great, almost like maximum security was a vacation.

Edited June 23, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[DianeDobbler]

Maritza plays Jane the Virgin's best friend on "Jane the Virgin". The whole time this OITNB season I kept thinking Lina was in jail. I know Maritza's been on OITNB before but I never really registered her.

[Chaos Theory]

My problem with the show is that Piper is the character I identify most with (yes I am a middle class white person).  I have no problem with Piper being sidelined for other characters.  I love some of the other characters on the show.  My issue is that she was not just sidelined but is the only character who has become a stereotype.    I loved Piper during the first season and I found her fascinating during the second.  There is no reason why the writers can't give her an interesting storyline that doesn't involve her being the worst kind of stereotypes of white privilege.  I actually find that offensive.  

[Cherpumple]

5 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I will shout out to the actress who played her sister, who made it BEYOND clear that she'd slept with Morello's husband (although WHY she did, God knows) while maintaining an innocent and reassuring façade. She just couldn't help being in a good mood, smiley and

I may need to rewatch this part because I came away the with exact opposite impression. I read it as Morello's "craziness" rearing its ugly head with her over-reacting to the simple fact that her sister and brother-in-law had a good time hanging out with her husband (after she specifically asked her sister to keep an eye on him). As far as I remember, we don't know enough about her sister (especially from a reliable narrator) to indicate that she is the type to sleep with her sister's husband (who's not exactly a great catch), and I thought Vinny seemed genuinely surprised and befuddled by Lorna's accusation.

[admiralrodcocker]

I LOVED this season. Poussey's death gutted me, and still hurts, but this season got me right in the feels. They touched upon everything. Race relations, white privilege, corrupts sadists guards, for-profit corrupt corporate executives, mental illness, etc. The women of this cast are amazing. Love or hate the characters, the female cast of this show always brings it, and they really did this season. I cried and/or teared up at so many moments, especially during the second half. I'll admit, the first 4 or so episodes had me worried that this season would be another slow one like three in which not much happens, but the second half took a shift for the dark and then it went there in so many ways.

Piper - I usually don't mind her. At worst she mildly annoys me, but she was on some other shit this season. Arrogant and ignorant. I'm glad she got branded. She started that white power shit whether she wants to accept it or not, and got off easy as far as I'm concerned. Maybe now she'll think twice before running her mouth. Taylor did an excellent job.

Alex - I enjoyed her interactions with Lolly and Frieda over the dead body. As much as I didn't like Piper this season, I do like Piper/Alex when they are there for each other, so their last few episodes supporting each other were nice to me.

Caputo - Punk ass. I've felt this way from episode one season 1. Nice to be proven right. He talks a good game, but when push comes to shove he's weak. He's also a perv, but that always seems to get overlooked.

Poussey - I never would have guessed I would have ended this season crying over the loss of my favorite character. I am so glad she got to be happy with Soso before she went. I am going to miss her terribly.

Maria/Blanca/Maritza - I really enjoyed all three of these women this season. Their stories were fleshed out better than I could have hoped for. I always thought Maritza was boring and ditsy, but she proved me wrong. Her having to swallow the mouse was chilling. Maria is a straight up gangsta for real, not the fake one Piper was trying to be. Blanca by far had some of the best, "fuck you" to the guards moments this season.

Nicky - I'm glad she's back, but not excited to see her relapsing. Her reunion with Red made me tear up.

The guards from hell - AWFUL, every single one of them especially Humps and Shit-catella. Even the good Bayley I can't look at him right now. I know it was an accident, but he still killed my favorite character off. It's just too soon. I do like how it was weaved in from last season that a lot of these guards are incompetently trained, and the training was cut short to save money, and in the end, a young woman died because of this. I also see people saying McCullough is one of the better guards. She can be nicer, and she did offer Maritza tampons and asked for eyeliner lessons, but she ain't shit either. She co-signed to the brotherhood instead of standing up for these women. Fuck her.

Daya - I am the most surprised by that ending. Daya spent most of this season in background. I do like the narrative that's going around that her whole time in prison has been spent getting fucked over (no pun intended) by various guards, and she's bitter as hell and out for blood. That one scene alone has me more interested in Daya than four seasons worth of her having hours worth of story. I'm really curious to see what's going to happen to her now.

Lolly - Lori Petty was so amazing. I'm seconding all those in the media that say this woman deserves an Emmy. One of the most heartbreaking moments was watching her get dragged to psych. She had me laughing and crying this whole season, even though there is nothing funny about mental illness. She doesn't belong in prison, she needs proper mental health care. Another sad commentary.

Edited June 23, 2016 by admiralrodcocker

[DianeDobbler]

I think they were trying to play Piper a bit as a poseur in the early episodes -you know, she'd assert herself, and then be all "Did they buy it?" Or - "Wow, I have a reputation?" It IS a pose - she tried to be tough in a couple of spots, but it's not her core. She's nowhere near tough enough to control genuinely tough people over trivial things. MAYBE if it's really important to Piper so she feels it in her gut, but the every day "Don't mess with me" stance isn't something she can pull off.

I rewatched the sister thing with Morello and I still think the sister was being "everything's fine" but evasive. I'd think something was up myself. Her demeanor changed from her prior visit with Morello, she just didn't sound genuine when she talked to her. Maybe that was a red herring so we'd see where Morello's attitude was coming from, but *I* was feeling duplicity from the sister before it was clear that was Morello's read too.

Lori Petty was absolutely fantastic in the greenhouse scenes.

Read an interview with Uzo Aduba about characters like Suzanne and Lolly, and she said some of the focus of the show is - why are they there? Why is someone like Suzanne, who is frequently not in possession of herself, in a conventional prison?  Digression: For me, a big flaw with the show is the absence of parents/connections, and the absence of the institution being AWARE that some of the inmates have connections and affluence. I wouldn't mess with someone whose dad was a general. I can't imagine Poussey not letting her dad know she was beaten to a pulp. Piper may just have upper middle class entitled relatives, but they're the sort of relatives who can cause problems and cause a letter of inquiry to be sent. I also can't imagine Suzanne's parents being - well, off she goes to a conventional corrections facility, at least it's minimum. They know her - they know she could get in further trouble in that environment, and it seems to me would petition the court for reclassification. The prison wouldn't block that reclassification either - Suzanne takes a lot of resources. I also have issues with this many minimum security inmates being dragged off to psych. Anyway, a basic self-serving corporation like MCC, and all those who worked for it, would know who among the inmates had outside connections, money, potential influence and who didn't, and it would influence how those inmates were treated.

I don't know why they had Nicky relapse - she corrected course pretty fast. She also looked great and healthy - or the actress did, and that made the "back on drugs" thing feel less plausible.

Didn't get enough of the two guards who are dating - they're hilarious, and contribute way more to the show than the new bunch, just as actors.

Don't know what you've got til its gone: BOY was I glad to see the last of Fig when she left. This season, after Caputo's corporate horror of a girlfriend (and how one note was she, as well as the dudebro in the dark red suit) I was all "Fig!" when she opened her door and invited Caputo in.

[RCharter]

^^I don't think Poussay would tell her dad if she was beaten up.  I think Poussay is deeply embarrassed by the shame she thought she brought on her family.  Her father is a general, her mother has a degree in art history.  She was supposed to go to West Point.  Instead she is in prison.  When you come from a legitimately good family, with people that care about you and you fuck up, you feel like you're always at fault.  She must feel like such a huge disappointment to them that I don't think she would want to burden and worry them anymore.  

Suzanne's parents are well off, but I can't think of anyone that would ask their child be sent to a maximum or medium security prison.  And the same issues she would have faced in Litchfield could be as bad, if not worse in a max or medium security prison.  Suzanne got around one manipulative leader type and got into a lot of trouble.  Max and medium security prisons would have way more of that.  And the number of guards/inmates are still not enough to have her closely watched all the time.  It seems far easier to get in a really bad situation in a maximum security environment.  I guess they could have asked for her to go to a pscyh facility, but I'm not sure that there are many of those in the penal system.

[Smhead]

I love Bayley and I live for Poussey. I'm grieving for both of them right now Poussey had her whole life ahead of her, for it to end like that is just, ahh. They had the nicest guard in that place accidentally kill the nicest inmate, if it would have been Big Buff Dude* or the other douche bags It would have made more sense, but Bayley?

*(Pascatella? I'm pretty sure there's an I in there somewhere?)

Man, I feel for Bayley. I think a part of him died the same time she did. His "Is she going to be okay" crushed me and the fact he was going to go into C-Dorm and apologize just put the nail in my coffin. I have to wonder where they're going with Bayley now. If he goes back to Litchfield, (which I don't see happening), he'll be targeted and if he doesn't go back what's going to happen? The actor was incredible and I just want to see more of him.

Healy: I'm one of those people who if I like the character I'll keep watching the series to see what happens to them. Healy is someone I've liked from the beginning. Yes he's a homophobic, power crazy, racist, dickhead, but this season he's just crushed me. He's literally got no one, he was about to freaking drown himself, and stopped because he thought his wife called him back, this man is so desperate for someone to love him

[Cherpumple]

3 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I rewatched the sister thing with Morello and I still think the sister was being "everything's fine" but evasive. I'd think something was up myself. Her demeanor changed from her prior visit with Morello, she just didn't sound genuine when she talked to her. Maybe that was a red herring so we'd see where Morello's attitude was coming from, but *I* was feeling duplicity from the sister before it was clear that was Morello's read too.

Interesting. I did notice a difference in the sister's demeanor during the second visit, but interpreted it differently. I kind of love the ambiguity of it all, because it not only highlighted Lorna's existing issues (extreme jealousy and romantic delusions) but it also hammered home the idea that these women can never know for sure what's going on on the outside. Lorna is forced to balance her sister's and husband's word against her (admittedly flawed) intuition, much the same way that those who are mothers are trying to parent their kids in absentia and Piper was initially trying to maintain her soap business with Polly. It doesn't really work, and leads to frustration, anxiety, and fighting.

[RCharter]

3 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

Interesting. I did notice a difference in the sister's demeanor during the second visit, but interpreted it differently. I kind of love the ambiguity of it all, because it not only highlighted Lorna's existing issues (extreme jealousy and romantic delusions) but it also hammered home the idea that these women can never know for sure what's going on on the outside. Lorna is forced to balance her sister's and husband's word against her (admittedly flawed) intuition, much the same way that those who are mothers are trying to parent their kids in absentia and Piper was initially trying to maintain her soap business with Polly. It doesn't really work, and leads to frustration, anxiety, and fighting.

and I think thats how they had the sister play it.  ambiguously.  you could see she was happier the second visit, so from Lorna's POV that must mean that she slept with Vinnie.  from the POV of the viewer though, it could kinda go either way because we know Lorna is a little crazy, but we also could see that the sister was happier the second visit.

Edited June 24, 2016 by RCharter

[Anna Yolei]

22 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

I may need to rewatch this part because I came away the with exact opposite impression. I read it as Morello's "craziness" rearing its ugly head with her over-reacting to the simple fact that her sister and brother-in-law had a good time hanging out with her husband (after she specifically asked her sister to keep an eye on him). As far as I remember, we don't know enough about her sister (especially from a reliable narrator) to indicate that she is the type to sleep with her sister's husband (who's not exactly a great catch), and I thought Vinny seemed genuinely surprised and befuddled by Lorna's accusation.

I got the same vibe, too, that Morello was being paranoid because that's who she is. Plus, he's thirty and living at home: even with the husband issues she's having, I don't think her sister would slum it with him, especially given what Morello is locked up for.

I genuinely did not miss Daya in the front burner. I don't care either way for the character, but she's gotten a whole three season story arc. I was glad to see Maria and Maritza and Blanca get some focus.

[Anna Yolei]

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 8:35 AM, JessePinkman said:

Exactly, unlike those other shows Poussey was one of many and not the token. The other deaths have been largely treated as jokes (Empire) or afterthoughts (The Vampire Diaries). Poussey's death led directly to a prison uprising. This will reverberate for seasons to come, I don't think any other show can say that.

Exactly. You can bet your ass her father will appear next season and this won't just be forgotten. And it brought ALL the groups out en masse, which is rare. 

I'm not bothered by the slightly darker tone because most of it was effective to the story, and of all the characters besides Piper (who I'm sure this series will end with her fighting for prisoner rights), Poussey has a well educated, supportive family with clout. That said, I'm sad she didn't get as much time with Tasytee and the others before being killed off, but it's a minor nitpick.

[kieyra]

Few quick things.

I think part of the problem with the internet today is everyone has an inflated sense of the value of their own opinion. I've never been raped. I'm not sure how valid my opinion is on the Pennsatucky storyline. I guess I'll cautiously say I think she's within her rights to forgive her rapist, and I understand why the show is exploring his side of it. (On this show, if you're not actively a sociopath, you're still a person.) But I'm glad Boo is there as a reminder.

I don't think they dubbed young Lolly--that actress's voice had a bit more (Texas?) twang to it. 

So Laverne Cox had a scheduling conflict? I wondered if she didn't appear much as a means of symbolism--put your transgender people in a box, make them invisible.

Panty Piper was boring and annoying. But we got to see her big fall, and then she was there for Alex this time. I'll take character growth any way it comes. (Healy, on the other hand, I dislike as much as some of you dislike piper.)

Daya being the one with the gun can't be an accident. She's trying to become her own person now that her mother's gone, and as someone else pointed out, she's technically been raped by a guard or two. 

I understand the sadness of the Lesbian Death Trope, but as was pointed out up thread, Poussey was far from a token on this show, and also the highest-impact victim. Not only that, but she's always been shadowed by tragedy. The alcoholism, the beatings, etc. I can't believe I didn't foreshadowing, though. 

Overall found this far stronger than 2 and 3.

Edited June 24, 2016 by kieyra

[knaankos]

One thing I did not like about this season is how front and center race was. I understand that in prison it will always be a pretty big deal but I felt that far too much of it was the writers trying to be too relevant and political.

For instance the hateful speech from the skinheads after Poussey's death did nothing for the storyline, was not politically challenging or anything it was just hate and had no place on the show.

Sometimes I wonder if the writers just have fun thinking up creative racial insults that they can put into the mouths of the racist characters with no blowback. Speaking of which why did every single character turn racist this season? Everyone from all of the groups was racist. It was extremely off-putting. And it was also annoying how they tried to make Piper seem like the only one who was not racist.

Showing the race wars I do not think is responsible storytelling. Taystee running the halls yelling "They let him off" was a heavy handed parallel with recent real life situations. I thought show did well by having all of the races join together to fight against the guards and yet they undid all of that with the comments the white characters made in the last episode. 

If you are going to get political, you have to have an important message. And what message did the writers send this season with all the racial hate and warring being artificially injected? That no matter what there is no hope and the races of the world cannot work together? That the system is driving them apart? I did not understand what they were trying to accomplish other than irresponsible attempts at connecting to real life problems but having nothing to say about them. They went for the heartstrings and once they got there they had nothing to say. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by knaankos

[Princess Sparkle]

On 6/18/2016 at 3:55 PM, RCharter said:

So..my question was....why couldn't Pescatella be the fall guy?  He is already an awful guy, and you just know he has a shitty past.  I guess he is an MCC hire so they may not want to bring up his past because it would make them liable.  But if they said that they didn't really know how far he would go?  But Pescatella is the damn worst, and I really hope they don't bring him back next season.  I can deal with the regular sort of asshole-y guards, I could even deal with Pornstache.....but I just can't with that guy.

You know, I wondered that myself, then the cynical part of me wondered if MCC didn't want to make him the fall guy because he's gay and they wouldn't want the optics to look like they fired a gay man, regardless of what he may have done in the prison.  And I can see why Caputo wouldn't want to make him the fall guy, because then he'd have to admit that not only did he put Pescatella in charge, he also ceded too much control over the inmates to him, failed to recognize there were problems until another guard told him, and then couldn't even take control of him once he realized something was wrong.  

On 6/20/2016 at 9:49 AM, Cherpumple said:

- I don’t know why, but I’ve always had a soft spot for Caputo. Despite all his bad decisions (and terrible taste in women) I feel that he still has his humanity and a sincere desire to make Litchfield a safe and productive environment. I still yelled at him through my TV several times during the last episode, but I’m not giving up on him yet.

You know, I have a soft spot for him too.  He makes some really questionable decisions, and I'm not ready to forgive him for not saying Poussey's name at the press conference, but I do think he genuinely wants to help the women in Litchfield and hopes that they become functioning members of society.  I think over the seasons that we've seen time and time again that most of the time, his heart is in the right place, he's just too weak to do anything about it.

I think throughout the whole season, the scene that made me cry the most wasn't Poussey & Taystee on the floor, or Norma singing to Soso (though, I was bawling through those as well) - it was Cindy and Janae finally crying over Poussey's death.  Cindy especially got to me, because we usually see her so in control of her emotions, and her default is to play things off with a joke or anger, so when she was reminiscing about Poussey and broke down, I was crying right along with her.  

Edited June 27, 2016 by Princess Sparkle
typo

[RCharter]

10 hours ago, kieyra said:

Few quick things.

I think part of the problem with the internet today is everyone has an inflated sense of the value of their own opinion. I've never been raped. I'm not sure how valid my opinion is on the Pennsatucky storyline. I guess I'll cautiously say I think she's within her rights to forgive her rapist, and I understand why the show is exploring his side of it. (On this show, if you're not actively a sociopath, you're still a person.) But I'm glad Boo is there as a reminder.

I don't think they dubbed young Lolly--that actress's voice had a bit more (Texas?) twang to it. 

So Laverne Cox had a scheduling conflict? I wondered if she didn't appear much as a means of symbolism--put your transgender people in a box, make them invisible.

Panty Piper was boring and annoying. But we got to see her big fall, and then she was there for Alex this time. I'll take character growth any way it comes. (Healy, on the other hand, I dislike as much as some of you dislike piper.)

I understand the sadness of the Lesbian Death Trope, but as was pointed out up thread, Poussey was far from a token on this show, and also the highest-impact victim. Not only that, but she's always been shadowed by tragedy. The alcoholism, the beatings, etc. I can't believe I didn't foreshadowing, though. 

Overall found this far stronger than 2 and 3.

I had wondered if the "kill your gays" trope would come up, especially since I think Poussay died not too long after she and Soso had sex for the first time (I think)

I don't like Healy much either.  There is always a point where I think he is going to have this turnaround, and he just doesn't.  Even in talking to Lolly, all he ended up doing was isolating and controlling her.  Which is what he always wants to do with women....isolate and control them.  And his treatment towards Caputo was just confusing?  Did he not realize he was coming off a a douchey tool?

[Madding crowd]

Finished this last night and like most of you, I cried during the last two episodes. This season seemed the darkest in tone to me, mainly because it was guard vs. inmate instead of inmate vs. guard. I always have problems with shows where people are trapped with no way out-not just being in prison but at the the mercy of these horrid guards. While I do blame Caputo for not being more on top of things, I didn't think there was much he good do about Poussey's death. If he tried to bring down MCC, he would be removed and replaced with someone like Linda and things would be much, much worse.

Other random thoughts: My husband is a police officer and started his career as a guard in the Cook County Jail. Obviously different than Litchfield, but we know some people who work in prisons and we have never known guards who had control of prisoner sentences. Recommendations on sentencing always goes through the warden's office and usually involves a team of people including social workers, lawyers, and prison officials. Guards do write reports about incidents, but they have no further involvement. I do understand this is a private facility, but they would still have to go through a public court so that part of the story rang false to me. I also feel like the show runners are trying to make this a minimum security prison in some aspects and a maximum in others. Minimum security prisons do not face such huge overcrowding, due to people coming and going on a daily basis. Here it seems like very few people are leaving. Of course, I get the reason for that-they need to keep the characters around, but it doesn't come off right. Also, most prisons (not jails, but prisons) are required to have things like classes, access to free legal help via the Internet, grievance procedures etc. This place actually seems like a hell hole at times. Other times, the inmates walk around and sneak around for hours, sneak into each other's bunks and have all kinds of contraband.

I felt very sad at Poussey's death-along with Red she was one of my favorite characters. Although her NY visit was filmed very well (and I want to go to that cool club), it doesn't really fit into a prison drama in any real way. Most of the other back stories are related to how the person got into prison, not about the happiest day of their life. I understand the reason, but it seemed kind of condescending to the viewers; we didn't need the knife to be twisted. We already knew Poussey was a lovely, educated and just plain nice woman who surely didn't deserve to be in prison, much less die a terrible death.

I didn't like Blanca's back story either. She is in charge of an elderly woman who is more or less helpless. Blanca could leave if she didn't like the arrangement, the woman could not get out of bed and leave the bedroom. I also dislike the idea that we are supposed to think each and every woman is innocent and was somehow framed. Of course, it happens, but there are habitual criminals too. I also didn't think we needed Suzanne's story about the child. It was an accident, but we already had enough background on her and didn't need another story. Both she and Lolly belong in psych, horrible as it is.

I don't know what to think about Healy. He is a damaged man who wants to do well but has his own issues which get in the way. 

I did like the story about Aleida getting out of prison. I'm sure many women face the same issues of not having anywhere to go when they get out. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Madding crowd

[Princess Sparkle]

3 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I felt very sad at Poussey's death-along with Red she was one of my favorite characters. Although her NY visit was filmed very well (and I want to go to that cool club), it doesn't really fit into a prison drama in any real way. Most of the other back stories are related to how the person got into prison, not about the happiest day of their life. I understand the reason, but it seemed kind of condescending to the viewers; we didn't need the knife to be twisted. We already knew Poussey's was a lovely, educated and just plain nice woman who surely didn't deserve to be in prison, much less die a terrible death.

 

Well, while her flashback was happier in nature than most, I took that as the night that she was arrested - the MCC guys said she was arrested for Trespassing and Possession with Intent to Sell, and at the end of the night she was by herself in an area that was technically off-limits, and we know she had a larger stash on her than normal.  

[heatherchandler]

42 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

 

I felt very sad at Poussey's death-along with Red she was one of my favorite characters. Although her NY visit was filmed very well (and I want to go to that cool club), it doesn't really fit into a prison drama in any real way. Most of the other back stories are related to how the person got into prison, not about the happiest day of their life.

I didn't like Blanca's back story either. She is in charge of an elderly woman who is more or less helpless. Blanca could leave if she didn't like the arrangement, the woman could not get out of bed and leave the bedroom.

Regarding the Blanca story, I was disgusted by her.  I do not think she was getting back at that woman, I think she was torturing her.  She couldn't just get up and leave.  Blanca was making her feel helpless and scared, just like an inmate.

36 minutes ago, Princess Sparkle said:

Well, while her flashback was happier in nature than most, I took that as the night that she was arrested - the MCC guys said she was arrested for Trespassing and Possession with Intent to Sell, and at the end of the night she was by herself in an area that was technically off-limits, and we know she had a larger stash on her than normal.  

 

Yes, I agree, I think this was the night she was arrested.  The other characters kept asking her if she still had all the weed on her, etc.  And she was in a place that would be off-limits.

I watched episode 12 again and now I have the ending song in my head, like an earworm.  But that is ok, it is so haunting and lovely! 

[knaankos]

3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

 

I felt very sad at Poussey's death-along with Red she was one of my favorite characters. Although her NY visit was filmed very well (and I want to go to that cool club), it doesn't really fit into a prison drama in any real way. Most of the other back stories are related to how the person got into prison, not about the happiest day of their life. I understand the reason, but it seemed kind of condescending to the viewers; we didn't need the knife to be twisted. We already knew Poussey was a lovely, educated and just plain nice woman who surely didn't deserve to be in prison, much less die a terrible death.

I didn't like Blanca's back story either. She is in charge of an elderly woman who is more or less helpless. Blanca could leave if she didn't like the arrangement, the woman could not get out of bed and leave the bedroom. I also dislike the idea that we are supposed to think each and every woman is innocent and was somehow framed. Of course, it happens, but there are habitual criminals too. I also didn't think we needed Suzanne's story about the child. It was an accident, but we already had enough background on her and didn't need another story. Both she and Lolly belong in psych, horrible as it is.

 

In real life I don't think a person like Poussey spends a second in prison, let alone over a year like she seems to be serving in the show. Someone mentioned that Poussey's race played a role in her harsh sentence. I din't believe that is a factor with Poussey. Money and influence have a lot of power in life. Poussey's dad is a well respected General, her mom was well educated and Poussey herself is well educated, multilingual and not a violent offender. I don't know how she got such a brutal prison sentencing, it just doesn't make any sense.

The actress for Blanca is going to start getting some serious villain roles in other shows or movies. One of the few inmates who actually scares me, such an intimidating presence. 

I agree with you about the backstories. Too many of them show instances of set-up or misunderstanding. Which I suppose makes sense for minimum security but then the way they are treated in prison does not fit with their crimes. Very few of the backstories have shown the woman as just an overall lousy person with habitual criminality, which let's be honest does make up a decent % of the population in a prison usually. One of those was actually Cindy, there was nothing sympathetic in her backstory. She was just lazy, selfish and pretty much a jerk. Yet we forget that because she is always cracking jokes in prison. 

[Ceindreadh]

3 hours ago, knaankos said:

In real life I don't think a person like Poussey spends a second in prison, let alone over a year like she seems to be serving in the show. Someone mentioned that Poussey's race played a role in her harsh sentence. I din't believe that is a factor with Poussey. Money and influence have a lot of power in life. Poussey's dad is a well respected General, her mom was well educated and Poussey herself is well educated, multilingual and not a violent offender. I don't know how she got such a brutal prison sentencing, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

My guess is that Poussey's father took a tough love approach with her and maybe didn't help her out with her defense.  IIRC, he never came to visit her during the show.  Or maybe Poussey was acting out and didn't accept his help? 

[ridethemaverick]

I did not like this season.

I know most people loved it and think it touched on a lot of important issues and that's true I guess but it did nothing for me. 

I hope the writer's room is more diverse next season. That's all I have to say really.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

We saw Poussey visiting her father during one of Piper's visitation scenes in S1. Plus what we saw of him during Poussey's S2 flashback made it seem like he was a tender, loving dad, not the type to pull a tough love act when the stakes were high enough for prison. 

Poussey's socioeconomic class does make it seem very weird that she'd land a 6 year sentence, and even weirder that someone with her connections couldn't get furlough when her mother was dying. But the writers use the microcosm of prison to highlight real social issues, so I don't think they planned out multiple season arcs.