S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[Hansey]

3 minutes ago, announcergirl said:

She's married to Tyrian, right? 

I seem to recall that her because her marriage to Tyrion was never consummated, it was null and void, thus the reason she could be wed to Ramsay in the first place. I don't think that now that she's Ramsay's "widow", that she automatically reverts back to Tyrion's wife awaiting consummation.  Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am).

[Cynna]

9 hours ago, Hansey said:

Also, unrelated the actual episode itself, could all of you who like to talk about next week's episode previews *PLEASE* put it in spoiler tags? This is one of the only GoT forums I read because I know it's really for avoiding book spoilers, and I like to go into every episode completely blind... I know that previews tend to be misleading, but I just don't ever want to have any kind of advance knowledge whatsoever about an episode until I see it myself.

The thing is, 90% of the discussion on here is speculation about what will happen. This is based on what's happened, what we want to happen, what we don't want to happen, foreshadowing, other shows, shipping, logic, and fantasy. The previews play at the end of the episode, so they're almost part of the episode itself, and it's kind of hard to ignore that they've played.

I have more of a beef sometimes with the 'previously on' clips they play before the show, as their efforts to remind people of past events generally just spoil new story twists, ie: showing Davos give Shireen the stag, then her carrying it to her waterless hot-tub - this basically gave away what would happen.

2 hours ago, HumblePi said:

 

Am I the only one who sees a sexual position every time the Bolton sigil pops up?

2 hours ago, RCharter said:

I don't see how Brienne is any less believable than any other "gallant knight."  Either way, I guess I don't look for particularly believable characters in a fantasy land.  And I think Brienne is motivated a lot by her childhood, and by growing up ugly and awkward and turning that painful rejection into becoming an honorable knight since she was never going to be any great beauty.  So, I see Brienne as as much a human as anyone else on the show.  But I'm not sure what part of her you don't find believable?

This!  Brienne, Tyrion, and Varys are my favourite characters by far so I've payed extra attention to them. However, of everything I've read on forums, I've yet to see men complaining that it's 'unrealistic' that a bald, robed eunuch or a little person hold power and are main characters. Nor do I see men complaining that GOT is pushing an agenda of powerful eunuchs, or playing to the dwarf/LP community. ;)

9 hours ago, annsterg said:

There have been too many mentions of the Mad King's wildfire caches under Kings Landing to NOT have that matter....this week with Tyrion.

Could that be what the dialogue between Qyburn and Cersei last week (the whole mysterious "there's more than we thought" discussion) was about?

Probably. Consider also that in Bran's vision, KL was totally burned down, the remains were rubble and smoke. Jaime also made a comment about Cersei loving her children so much that she'd rather burn down a city than lose them - that one really stuck with me.

[Hansey]

1 hour ago, Cynna said:

The thing is, 90% of the discussion on here is speculation about what will happen. This is based on what's happened, what we want to happen, what we don't want to happen, foreshadowing, other shows, shipping, logic, and fantasy. The previews play at the end of the episode, so they're almost part of the episode itself, and it's kind of hard to ignore that they've played.

I have more of a beef sometimes with the 'previously on' clips they play before the show, as their efforts to remind people of past events generally just spoil new story twists, ie: showing Davos give Shireen the stag, then her carrying it to her waterless hot-tub - this basically gave away what would happen.

 

I dunno, I don't think it's hard to ignore the previews... my husband and I *always* just change the channel/turn off the TV as soon as the episode ends, and certainly as soon as we see any "next time on..." We do this with all shows. We don't ever watch previouslies either. (Except occasionally for the first episode of a new season, when maybe we actually need a little refresher.)

I'm not against speculation - that's part of the fun. But basing speculation on an actual preview showing things happening in the next episode is really spoiler territory.  In fact, the very first post in the thread from the mods specifically requests that discussions regarding previews be put in spoiler tags.

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Everything you wrote is out of control fanwanking. You basically created the farfetched scenarios on the show so that Littlefinger can end on the Iron Throne. 

Everything ? Lol my 3rd sentence was definitely speculation (as in I started the sentence with "I am thinking ....").  But the first 2 sentences were just replies to your previous statement.  ie. you said there were 4 (or 5?) houses that could defend Iron Throne, I pointed out the weaknesses of 3 out of 5 houses in your list based on story so far.  
Also, regardless of the FM situation at KL, the Tyrells and Lannisters will still need to face the Sands rebellion from the south (again, story so far).  How difficult is it for LF to persuade the Freys to combine forces and sack KL while the other 3 houses are at war? (!!! speculation alert!! :D )

And yes, Lord Baelish's end game was the Iron Throne from the get go.  He pointed out as much in his discussion with Varys in Season 1.  He was not the type of character who would hesitate from stepping on everybody to get what he wanted. Heck, the dude basically used Sansa as bait to get Winterfell. (story so far)

[Timetoread]

7 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Yet, I don't believe he held it against Olly for killing Ygritte. He still gave the Night's Watch everything he had learned about the Wildings and in the end picked duty over love. And before Jon mercy killed Mance, he was ready to assassinate him in his tent. Not to mention he was finally seeing the reason for the Night's Watch, with the undead wights and the White Walkers. He never picked the Wildlings over the Night's Watch.

I will admit, I didn't like him charging forward after Rickon was shot. It would have been better if he picked up Rickon's body and rode back to his men. I really do hate they made Jon as stupid as possible. But I think that Kit played it well that his rage overcame his good sense

Yara showed a rescue mission isn't completely impossible. Hers would have worked if Theon hadn't become Reek by that time. I don't think it was particularly stupid to think and hope that there was a possibility that Rickon could be saved. And if Ramsay wasn't super Ramsay, it would have worked.

Of course Jon didn't choose the Wildlings over the KW or hold Olly's revenge against him. He's a very decent and honorable fellow like his father. But he is not good at manipulation. We always attach a negative connotation to the word, but essentially it is convincing people to do what you want them to do. Sometimes what you want them to do is the right thing. Life has been teaching Sansa and the knowledge gave her the juice to topple Ramsay- with brains, not brawn.

I also don't think it was stupid to want to rescue his brother. Ramsay wasn't a superman, he was just very smart and sociopathic. This meant that he was not susceptible to emotional stimuli like normal people are.  And because he was also a sadist, he used others emotions against them. He would figure out what they would do and trap them with it. So Sansa, well versed in Ramsay, approached the situation not with heart but with mind. What would Ramsay do? Ramsay would taunt Jon about returning Sansa so he could brutalize her more and he would use Rickon to draw out Jon and get him to do something stupid. He played the big brother card. Out in the open, his superior numbers would easily flank and overtake Jon's. That is EXACTLY what he did. Sansa used that against him. Overconfident and thinking he had it in the bag, he shot his military load. That's when reinforcements arrived. Checkmate.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Timetoread

[arjumand]

43 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

I also don't think it was stupid to want to rescue his brother. Ramsay wasn't a superman, he was just very smart and sociopathic. This meant that he was not susceptible to emotional stimuli like normal people are.  And because he was also a sadist, he used others emotions against them. He would figure out what they would do and trap them with it. So Sansa, well versed in Ramsay, approached the situation not with heart but with mind. What would Ramsay do? Ramsay would taunt Jon about returning Sansa so he could brutalize her more and he would use Rickon to draw out Jon and get him to do something stupid. He played the big brother card. Out in the open, his superior numbers would easily flank and overtake Jon's. That is EXACTLY what he did. Sansa used that against him. Overconfident and thinking he had it in the bag, he shot his military load. That's when reinforcements arrived. Checkmate.

I agree, completely.

Jon did what any person with actual emotions would do, which is why Ramsey decided to use them against him. As usual, though, he went overboard, and overplayed his hand, making what happened to him (i.e. Ramsey) inevitable. Just like his father had told him re. Sansa and Theon, he played his games with Rickon and lost, by ensuring that he would not survive the aftermath of the battle. I mean, no one was going to give Ramsey the option of taking the black. If it hadn't been his dogs, it would have been Jon's sword.

[Ambrosefolly]

He was "Super Ramsay" because he was able to hit a very specific, fast moving target, Rickon's heart, from several yards away, if not at least a hundred yards away. The first arrow that went through Rickon killed him while Rickon was arm's length away from Jon, not some less vital organ or other part of his body, where Jon would have to return Rickon behind his army.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Enigma X]

9 hours ago, Fishslap said:

No obviously Jon is weak.

I am not getting into the strong/weak women debate mainly because I am at work and don't have the time to give it the verbiage I would need to. But is not obvious Jon is weak more than someone's subjective opinion.

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

He was "Super Ramsay" because he was able to hit a very specific, fast moving target, Rickon's heart, from several yards away, if not at least a hundred yards away.

Jon and Ramsay were both raised as sons of high Lords and trained by their castles' Masters-at-Arms, so one's skill with a sword and the other's skill with a bow don't surprise me, especially since neither was a trueborn son and both desperately yearned for their respective fathers' approval. 

[Ambrosefolly]

6 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Jon and Ramsay were both raised as sons of high Lords and trained by their castles' Masters-at-Arms, so one's skill with a sword and the other's skill with a bow don't surprise me, especially since neither was a trueborn son and both desperately yearned for their respective fathers' approval. 

But even a skilled archery would have trouble making that particular shot. A skilled sniper with rifle would have trouble making that shot.  Rickon wasn't close and the way it played out, it appears that Ramsay cut him  down right in front of Jon for maximum emotional pain. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Mz Anthrope]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 3:04 AM, CletusMusashi said:

 and gods help you if you're a giant! You'd think somebody who's twenty feet tall and considers the square/cube law to be the square/cube mild suggestion would be able to just stand back with a few wagons full of rocks and massacre the bad guys, but nope. Giants aren't even allowed to use a battering ram to break into castles full of archers.

And I am *doubting* you get to enjoy the spoils of war.  Poor Wun Wun probably wasn't allowed back at the whore house.

[RCharter]

1 hour ago, Mz Anthrope said:

And I am *doubting* you get to enjoy the spoils of war.  Poor Wun Wun probably wasn't allowed back at the whore house.

It probably took the entire brothel to give him a hand job.

[arjumand]

Just saw this on io9 (c)Bingostar

 

Also, I like the idea that Jon is experiencing a rebirth in that scene - some critics have been saying that Jon seems so different after he was brought back to life by Melisandre, like he has a death wish. But that struggle to get air, that was him choosing life again.

I rewatched the episode and that whole part is unbelievable. I found myself dreading it even as I acknowledged it was skilfully done - this is war, this is what Jon is tired of, and you can't really blame him.

Visually, this whole episode is out of this world - the scene where Dany and Yara talk, there's some shots which could be a Flemish painting. Wow.

Edited June 21, 2016 by arjumand

[Save Yourself]

Re Wildfire and the rumour that Cersei and Qyburn were whispering about, I'm assuming it's the hidden wildfire that the Mad King had hidden all over the city so that he could send it up in flames, I think it had become an urban legend because Jaime was the only one left living who knew what Aerys had planned.

[HumblePi]

T

26 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Just saw this on io9 (c)Bingostar

 

Also, I like the idea that Jon is experiencing a rebirth in that scene - some critics have been saying that Jon seems so different after he was brought back to life by Melisandre, like he has a death wish. But that struggle to get air, that was him choosing life again.

I rewatched the episode and that whole part is unbelievable. I found myself dreading it even as I acknowledged it was skilfully done - this is war, this is what Jon is tired of, and you can't really blame him.

Visually, this whole episode is out of this world - the scene where Dany and Yara talk, there's some shots which could be a Flemish painting. Wow.

Thank you for posting the picture, it's an interesting juxtaposition and stark contrast between adulation and defeat. I had stopped and freeze-framed the shot when Jon was panicked and struggling to emerge from the fate of suffocation. I wondered if they had digitally mastered the shot to add people to it and discovered that what they did was have many of the actors hold onto a dummy that appeared to be dead. You can pick them out in this shot if you look closely enough. The technical aspects of filming an epic scene like that intrigue me, particularly since it's for television and not for a movie distributed in theaters. But, as someone said, HBO has tons of money to pour into projects like GoT and they know people are avid fans so they're budget isn't limited. For those that may be interested in the 'behind the scenes' making of this epic battle, I found a great video that explains that process to some extent.

[annsterg]

Was Karstark the guy Jon was about to fight when he got trampled and almost suffocated? And are we assuming Karstark died?

Are ALL the Children of the Forest gone now?

[izabella]

16 minutes ago, Save Yourself said:

Re Wildfire and the rumour that Cersei and Qyburn were whispering about, I'm assuming it's the hidden wildfire that the Mad King had hidden all over the city so that he could send it up in flames, I think it had become an urban legend because Jaime was the only one left living who knew what Aerys had planned.

Tyrion knew and used the Wildfire during Blackwater.  If nothing else, they would know there was actually wildfire because it was found and used.  Qyburn, I think, was referring to there being more of it. 

[Save Yourself]

13 minutes ago, izabella said:

Tyrion knew and used the Wildfire during Blackwater.  If nothing else, they would know there was actually wildfire because it was found and used.  Qyburn, I think, was referring to there being more of it. 

That was a new supply - Cersei ordered it to be produced and then Tyrion used the entire amount at the Blackwater so they think it's all gone. It was just a rumour that the Mad King had planted secret caches underground throughout KL, from the pleb sections right through to the Red Keep, so that he could burn the entire city to the ground. Qyburn confirming the rumours suggests that Cersei will follow through with the King's plan.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Save Yourself

[garyvp]

Questions about Sansa:

1. Does she inherit Lord Bolton's estate? What about the Lannister's if Cersei, Jamie, and Tomen all die in the coming firestorm?  She could be the wealthiest woman in Westeros. 
2. Did she knew that Ramsey would not be the first to attack but instead wold find a way to draw Jon's army to the center for an easy kill?
3. Despite the fact that she warned Jon not to respond emotionally to Rickon's probable death ad Ramsey's hand, and then mount a charge,  did she really just bait him knowing full well that Ramsey would kill Rickon in the most provoking and manipulative manner, whilst also knowing that Little Finger was around the corner with the seventh Calvary. Hence, Jon would forge ahead emotionally, against his military judgement, and draw in his army to mount a hopeless attack, then get pulverized,  and consequently draw out Ramsey's entire army  into the open which would form an extremely rigid formation to finish Jon's army off, but also leaving Ramsey's army exposed to shredding in place by the Little Finger's army of the Vale. Did she see all this and set it up? Is Sansa that clever?
4. Is this really not  turning into the Game of Queens - Daenerys, Yara, Ellaria Sand, Sansa, and Lyanna Mormont  with a bunch of wise guy advisers? I don't see a king in sight?
5. Does she reconcile with Little Finger?

[DollEyes]

Quote

We're gonna miss you Ramsey, you old poop. 

Not me. I haven't cheered so much for a GOT character's demise since Joffrey. If anything, Ramsey was even worse than Joffrey because as evil as Joffrey was, at least he never had any of his baby relatives assassinated, ala Ramsey. When it comes to Ramsey's death, to quote "Cell Blaco Tango" from Chicago, "He had it comin'/He had it comin'/He only had himself to blame."  Ramsey richly deserved both the beatdown Jon gave him and to be served as dog food to his own dogs by Sansa. Serves Ramsey right for being such a shitty pet parent. If he had fed his dogs when he was supposed to, Sansa wouldn't have fed him to them. Of course, if Ramsey wasn't such a sociopathic asshole, he probably wouldn't have died in the first place. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by DollEyes

[annsterg]

12 minutes ago, DollEyes said:

Not me. I haven't cheered so much for a GOT character's demise since Joffrey. If anything, Ramsey was even worse than Joffrey because as evil as Joffrey was, at least he never had any of his baby relatives assassinated, ala Ramsey. When it comes to Ramsey's death, to quote "Cell Blaco Tango" from Chicago, "He had it comin'/He had it comin'/He only had himself to blame."  Ramsey richly deserved both the beatdown Jon gave him and to be served as dog food to his own dogs by Sansa. Serves Ramsey right for being such a shitty pet parent. If he had fed his dogs when he was supposed to, Sansa wouldn't have fed him to them. Of course, if Ramsey wasn't such a sociopathic asshole, he probably wouldn't have died in the first place. 

Joffrey most certainly DID kill off "baby relatives." He had all of Robert's known bastards killed, including the horrible scene in Littlefinger's brothel, where the baby was torn from his screaming mother's arms and killed. We had thought Cersei was responsible for the murders but learned later it was Joffrey.

[Save Yourself]

4 minutes ago, annsterg said:

Joffrey most certainly DID kill off "baby relatives." He had all of Robert's known bastards killed, including the horrible scene in Littlefinger's brothel, where the baby was torn from his screaming mother's arms and killed. We had thought Cersei was responsible for the murders but learned later it was Joffrey.

Yes Joffrey won for most baby kills... congratulations Joffrey? :|

[izabella]

Joffrey was the worst, but so was Ramsey.  I hated Ramsey more because the Theon torture porn lasted for so many seasons and was so graphic.

Edited June 21, 2016 by izabella

[revbfc]

I guess I should have been more specific when asking about Wun Wun's corpse yesterday.  We see the same courtyard where Wun Wun fell in the scene Sansa asks about Ramsay's whereabouts, and there's no Wun Wun.  There WAS a large spot that seemed soaked with blood, but no giant corpse.  How did the remnants of Jon's army move something that big?  Butchering a body as thick as a Redwood is not a simple job.

[dramachick]

49 minutes ago, garyvp said:

Questions about Sansa:

1. Does she inherit Lord Bolton's estate? What about the Lannister's if Cersei, Jamie, and Tomen all die in the coming firestorm?  She could be the wealthiest woman in Westeros. 
2. Did she knew that Ramsey would not be the first to attack but instead wold find a way to draw Jon's army to the center for an easy kill?
3. Despite the fact that she warned Jon not to respond emotionally to Rickon's probable death ad Ramsey's hand, and then mount a charge,  did she really just bait him knowing full well that Ramsey would kill Rickon in the most provoking and manipulative manner, whilst also knowing that Little Finger was around the corner with the seventh Calvary. Hence, Jon would forge ahead emotionally, against his military judgement, and draw in his army to mount a hopeless attack, then get pulverized,  and consequently draw out Ramsey's entire army  into the open which would form an extremely rigid formation to finish Jon's army off, but also leaving Ramsey's army exposed to shredding in place by the Little Finger's army of the Vale. Did she see all this and set it up? Is Sansa that clever?
4. Is this really not  turning into the Game of Queens - Daenerys, Yara, Ellaria Sand, Sansa, and Lyanna Mormont  with a bunch of wise guy advisers? I don't see a king in sight?
5. Does she reconcile with Little Finger?

We don't know anything about the Bolton family.  There are a lot of Lannisters, so even if her marriage to Tyrion was somehow made valid, Sansa wouldn't inherit anything.

I don't see Sansa as a strategic mastermind.  I don't think she knew for sure that the Vale army would show up, and when they did I think they rode into the battle immediately. Littlefinger and/or Lord Royce might have timed the arrival because I think there are commonly known rules or traditions that armies observe as to when fighting begins, etc.

Sansa is a free woman, and I can think of no reason for her to marry Littlefinger.  He wants to marry her to gain land and titles.  The man is a pimp who exploited her naiveté and treated her like a whore to try to gain power for himself. Now that she sees him for who he really is, she'd be a fool to reconcile with him and would be deserving of any misery that came her way as a result.

Edited June 21, 2016 by dramachick

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, annsterg said:

Was Karstark the guy Jon was about to fight when he got trampled and almost suffocated? And are we assuming Karstark died?

Karstark mysteriously disappeared sometime in the midst of battle. I'm hoping Jon tracks him down and kills him in the finale.

[terrymct]

Seeing the mention of Sansa Stark Lannister Bolton above, it dawned on me that I've forgotten something basic. Sansa was married in the Sept to Tyrion. How did that marriage official end? Or was she a bigamist when she married Ramsay?

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Karstark mysteriously disappeared sometime in the midst of battle. I'm hoping Jon tracks him down and kills him in the finale.

Wasn't Karstark the guy that Tormund took a bite out of?  I think he died, because Tormund bit his neck, so got the jugular?  Did I imagine that?

14 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Seeing the mention of Sansa Stark Lannister Bolton above, it dawned on me that I've forgotten something basic. Sansa was married in the Sept to Tyrion. How did that marriage official end? Or was she a bigamist when she married Ramsay?

I mentioned it upthread...I think Littlefinger got a document from Cersei that nullified Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Cersei and Littlefinger were colluding to get the Aerie and Winterfell.

[meep.meep]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:04 AM, CletusMusashi said:

I think if I lived in Westeros I'd work for the bad guys. I mean, come on. They're allowed to wear helmets, and carry shields, and they don't have to be named characters to wear body armor, and they're even allowed to shoot you from a distance with projectile weapons. If you're a good guy, your battle equipment consists of some cloth or fur, a short (non spear) one handed weapon... and gods help you if you're a giant! You'd think somebody who's twenty feet tall and considers the square/cube law to be the square/cube mild suggestion would be able to just stand back with a few wagons full of rocks and massacre the bad guys, but nope. Giants aren't even allowed to use a battering ram to break into castles full of archers.

All I could think when Jon was glowering at Lord Kibbles was: "Shoot him! Oh. Right. For some reason you only own one weapon. Must make shaving your chest interesting. Well, then, have one of your archers... wait a second... all of you are like that now? What the fuck?"

Yeah, what happened to all the archers among the wildlings?  That used to be one of their chief weapons, you'd think they would have perfected some tactics using them.  If the evil opposition can reach you with their arrows, then you should be able to reach them with yours.  This is no Agincourt superior English bows situation.  Of course the evil opposition gets to wear helmets and your locks must remain free to waft in the breeze (even though you are from the frozen north and would be likely to wear a head covering all the time).

I don't think they've ever shown full length shields, like Ramsay's army was using, on GOT.  Half shields, like the one that Jon picks up at the end, yes.

Jon's fight with Ramsay was a direct call back to his escape from the Wildlings at the end of season 3 (?).  Then he gets shot three times by Ygritte, this time Ramsay shoots at him three times, but he uses the shield to deflect the arrows.

[Lady S.]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

Wasn't Karstark the guy that Tormund took a bite out of?  I think he died, because Tormund bit his neck, so got the jugular?  Did I imagine that?

Nah, the mini-battle of the beards was between Tormund and Umber. Lord Umber betrayed Rickon because he hated wildlings and blamed Jon for giving them the chance to ravage his lands. Lord Karstark hated the Starks because Robb beheaded the previous Lord Karstark yet he was still down with Ramsay murdering Roose. 

I updated the character guide yesterday, btw.

As for Sansa's possible bigamy, Littlefinger at one point offered to let Roose personally examine her to check that her hymen was intact and thus, Tyrion had never consummated their marriage. Roose decided to just take Littlefinger's word for it since he was betraying his alliance with the Lannisters either way. There's also the sticky issue of Tyrion and Sansa both being wanted fugitives accused of Joffrey's murder. But the Lannisters are in no position to hunt them down and I doubt Tyrion would hold Sansa's re-marriage against her. Nor that the current High Septon would care about the sanctity of an allegedly unconsummated union when he has his own agenda to deal with. 

[Timetoread]

Quote

Joffrey was the worst, but so was Ramsey.

And Sansa was married to them both - (I know, not technically with Joffrey, but close enough).  I love that she is the one still standing.  That said, it would seem to me that as Ramsay's "queen", she is indeed the one to inherit all the Bolton assets.  And Bolton allies, as well?  Will the Fray's need to stand down?

[KaleyFirefly]

On 6/20/2016 at 10:43 AM, MsChipper said:

9. GO TORMUND! For eating Umber! Never has revenge cannibalism looked so good.
10. Every time an arrow shot Wun Wun, i shouted, NO! WUN WUN! - am still very depressed he's dead even though I knew it was coming.
 

I was so worried about Tormund in this episode! He has to survive for Brienne!

I was also very upset about Wun Wun. He was the one who had said "Snow" in his vote for the Wildlings to help Jon re-take Winterfell. He sacrificed himself for Jon's cause. :-(

[annsterg]

34 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

And Sansa was married to them both - (I know, not technically with Joffrey, but close enough).  I love that she is the one still standing.  That said, it would seem to me that as Ramsay's "queen", she is indeed the one to inherit all the Bolton assets.  And Bolton allies, as well?  Will the Fray's need to stand down?

Pretty sure Sansa cannot inherit Bolton assets, because even though she was married to a Bolton, she herself is not a Bolton and she did not produce a Bolton heir (please let enough time have passed that Sansa cannot be pregnant with that demon spawn). The next male blood Bolton -- if there were one -- would inherit...that is, if this were a "normal" progression, which it is not. So I think that the Starks will TAKE the Bolton lands because of their treachery and wipe that house off the face of Westeros. Too bad for any Bolton loyalists...wonder how many are manning the Dreadfort?

I don't think the Freys have been Bolton allies since Roose decided to break with the Lannisters by marrying Sansa to Ramsay...and certainly not since Ramsay killed Fat Walda.

Edited June 21, 2016 by annsterg

[KaleyFirefly]

On 6/20/2016 at 11:02 AM, SnowDrift said:

The end of Ramsay was one of the greatest moments of GoT. People cheered his grisly demise. He was truly a big helping of Kibbles N Bits!

Sweet revenge for Sansa, and justice for Walda Frey and her newborn that Ramsey had fed to his dogs...

[KaleyFirefly]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:01 PM, dinkysquid said:

My only disappointment with Ramsey's demise? TOO QUICK!!! I would torture this freak for DAYS. Bring him just to the brink, then revive and start again. I'd make what he did to Theon look like a day at the spa. He has got to be the most loathsome villain I think I have ever seen and kudos to the actor for doing such an amazing job because that's when you know you're good when you can stir up that much hate in your audience. I hope in his next role, he is a sweet, kind soul who writes poetry and listens to Sarah McLaughlin.

Watch Iwan Rheon as Simon in "Misfits" -- in Season 2 and 3 he plays a wonderful, lovable character and there is a nice love story with him too.

Edited June 21, 2016 by KaleyFirefly
adding in a 3

[proserpina65]

I don't think Jon is stupid or clueless.  He has been, in the past, inclined to let his emotions get the better of him, and although he worked to control that impulse after it was pointed out to him to several different people, in the face of watching his little brother die, he reverted.  Yes, it was a terrible mistake and I wish he hadn't done it, I understand why.  He's human.

[paigow]

13 minutes ago, annsterg said:

Pretty sure Sansa cannot inherit Bolton assets, because even though she was married to a Bolton, she herself is not a Bolton and she did not produce a Bolton heir (please let enough time have passed that Sansa cannot be pregnant with that demon spawn). The next male blood Bolton -- if there were one -- would inherit...that is, if this were a "normal" progression, which it is not. So I think that the Starks will TAKE the Bolton lands because of their treachery and wipe that house off the face of Westeros. Too bad for any Bolton loyalists...wonder how many are manning the Dreadfort?

I don't think the Freys have been Bolton allies since Roose decided to break with the Lannisters by marrying Sansa to Ramsay...and certainly not since Ramsay killed Fat Walda.

Roose does not have any surviving children - legitimate or not. It doesn't seem like there are any Boltons of any gender remaining. The Freys do not know that Ramsey killed Fat Walda.

[proserpina65]

Quote

I have notes. To the Masters - it's one thing to ignore the elephant in the room. But to ignore a freaking dragon, that makes you too dumb to live. They knew Daenerys had fled on Drogon, how did they think she had returned? Using Littlefinger's teleportation device?

The only excuse I can think of is that when the Masters of Astapor and Yunkai had last seen her dragons, they weren't nearly that big, and they didn't believe anything they'd heard about them since.  The one emissary on the beach had seen them, but they were still dog-sized at the time, iirc.  But yeah, dumb, de dumb, dumb.

[annsterg]

6 minutes ago, paigow said:

Roose does not have any surviving children - legitimate or not. It doesn't seem like there are any Boltons of any gender remaining. The Freys do not know that Ramsey killed Fat Walda.

Yeah, but is there a Bolton cousin, uncle, great-nephew? Guess not.

Whatever else he is, Walder Frey is not stupid. He has to know that his pregnant daughter AND her child AND Roose all dying around the same time is not just a sad coincidence. Umber knew right away that Ramsay had killed Roose, so why wouldn't Walder?

I do like the thought of -- pretty sure the show would never waste time showing it though -- of the Stark loyalists going into the Dreadfort and clearing it out of Bolton crap and burning every cross and torture device they find. Probably more practical -- given the timing with the Army of the Dead and all -- than razing it to the ground. The North will need fortresses in key positions.

Edited June 21, 2016 by annsterg

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

Yeah, what happened to all the archers among the wildlings?  That used to be one of their chief weapons, you'd think they would have perfected some tactics using them.  If the evil opposition can reach you with their arrows, then you should be able to reach them with yours.  This is no Agincourt superior English bows situation.  Of course the evil opposition gets to wear helmets and your locks must remain free to waft in the breeze (even though you are from the frozen north and would be likely to wear a head covering all the time).

I don't think they've ever shown full length shields, like Ramsay's army was using, on GOT.  Half shields, like the one that Jon picks up at the end, yes.

Jon's fight with Ramsay was a direct call back to his escape from the Wildlings at the end of season 3 (?).  Then he gets shot three times by Ygritte, this time Ramsay shoots at him three times, but he uses the shield to deflect the arrows.

Jon's army had a few rows of archers standing by.  Davos told the cavalry to go after Jon once Jon took the bait.  Then Tormund lead the infantry + Wun Wun to join in.  Davos was left with the archers but he told  them to hold their shots, presumably since he did not want to hurt their own allies in the battlefield (unlike Ramsay).  In the end Davos said what the fook and marched down with the archers (with their swords drawn) to the battlefield.  They were surrounded with the rest of Jon's army by Ramsay's phalanx.  The next time we saw Jon's archers were in Winterfell after Wun Wun broke the gate.  

Why did Davos not manuever the archers to either side of the battlefield and attack Ramsay's standing army from distance? I haven't got a clue.  He lost the range advantage when he converted the archery unit to infantry.

Edited June 21, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[paigow]

The official cover / raven story for Roose was poisoning.  Ramsey may have sent another raven that the baby was DOA and Walda killed herself. Unless Walder sends a bunch of other bungling sons to do a CSI: Winterfell, case closed.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:30 PM, RedHawk said:

I guess Wun-Wun was indeed The Last of the Giants, so it was heart-breaking to see him fall after his magnificent battle. Would have been great to see the funeral honors they gave him. 

Because I'd just seen that tragic end of a great character, it made Jon's advance on Ramsay even more thrilling. I haven't cared much about Jon Snow lately, but seeing him charge right into the sadistic bastard's arrows was awesome. The gradual dawning realization on Ramsay's face was great as well. 

I just don't understand why no one had shields -- facing a bunch of lances, spears and a rain of arrows. Why couldn't the giant have a shield or even a spear? He would have broken right through that wall of Bolton shields like nothing.

[izabella]

39 minutes ago, annsterg said:

Pretty sure Sansa cannot inherit Bolton assets, because even though she was married to a Bolton, she herself is not a Bolton and she did not produce a Bolton heir (please let enough time have passed that Sansa cannot be pregnant with that demon spawn). The next male blood Bolton -- if there were one -- would inherit...that is, if this were a "normal" progression, which it is not. So I think that the Starks will TAKE the Bolton lands because of their treachery and wipe that house off the face of Westeros. Too bad for any Bolton loyalists...wonder how many are manning the Dreadfort?

To the victor, go the spoils.  Just ask the Tully soldiers who are now under the Lannister/Frey thumb.

The Starks would now have the Bolton lands and soldiers, if any are left.  Or maybe that's really the Vale, since it was the Vale army that defeated Bolton.

[ElleMo]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I mentioned it upthread...I think Littlefinger got a document from Cersei that nullified Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Cersei and Littlefinger were colluding to get the Aerie and Winterfell.

I don;t think so.  If Cersei wanted Winterfell, she would just take it.  She wouldn't allow the person who (she believed) killed her son to live.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:37 PM, proserpina65 said:

As a devotee of medieval history, and medieval warfare in particular, this episode captured the absolute fucking brutality of it brilliantly.  That battle was like nothing I've ever seen on tv, or, quite frankly, the movie screen.  (Braveheart's battles are the only ones which come close, in a brutality sense.)  This was by far the best episode of season six, and possibly the best of the entire series.  Can Miguel Sapochnik just direct every episode from now until the end of the series?

It was fantastic, but for me, the most awesome battle of the series (visually) will always be "Hardhome."

[KaleyFirefly]

On 6/20/2016 at 1:48 PM, LittleIggy said:

My name is Lord Baelish, and I loved this episode!

OMG so cute! And I love his name! (second only to Ser Pounce!)

[ElleMo]

48 minutes ago, annsterg said:

Pretty sure Sansa cannot inherit Bolton assets, because even though she was married to a Bolton, she herself is not a Bolton and she did not produce a Bolton heir (please let enough time have passed that Sansa cannot be pregnant with that demon spawn). The next male blood Bolton -- if there were one -- would inherit...that is, if this were a "normal" progression, which it is not. So I think that the Starks will TAKE the Bolton lands because of their treachery and wipe that house off the face of Westeros. Too bad for any Bolton loyalists...wonder how many are manning the Dreadfort?

I don't think the Freys have been Bolton allies since Roose decided to break with the Lannisters by marrying Sansa to Ramsay...and certainly not since Ramsay killed Fat Walda.

That is pretty much what Sansa said to Ramsey before releasing the hounds.  "You will be forgotten, you are the last of your house"  (paraphrased)

Which is also why I do not agree with the people who think Sansa is pregnant.

14 hours ago, Hansey said:

I seem to recall that her because her marriage to Tyrion was never consummated, it was null and void, thus the reason she could be wed to Ramsay in the first place. I don't think that now that she's Ramsay's "widow", that she automatically reverts back to Tyrion's wife awaiting consummation.  Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am).

That's pretty much what I recall too.

[taanja]

22 hours ago, MissLulu said:

I get the passion of the posters have here, all of this just nods to how good a show it is, that people are so invested in these characters. I will also add that I came here because I could not stand all the nastiness on the IMDB board. Too many critics and haters and probably mostly people who rarely leave their basement and have never even attempted anything more creative than a coloring book. Yet they know how it could be done, written, acted or CGI-ed better.

^^^This drives me insane! (it is a short dive I admit) when the anonymous ones sit in the dark basement of their lives and criticize the "poor writing" I ask-- oh what TV show do you write for so that I may critique YOUR work????

[DarkRaichu]

18 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I just don't understand why no one had shields -- facing a bunch of lances, spears and a rain of arrows. Why couldn't the giant have a shield or even a spear? He would have broken right through that wall of Bolton shields like nothing.

Lol Wun Wun should have uprooted 1 of the trees on the background and used that as a weapon.  Better yet, they should have prepared a stack of logs for Wun Wun to toss to Ramsay's army.  ;)

Edited June 21, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[Cynna]

6 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

He was "Super Ramsay" because he was able to hit a very specific, fast moving target, Rickon's heart, from several yards away, if not at least a hundred yards away. The first arrow that went through Rickon killed him while Rickon was arm's length away from Jon, not some less vital organ or other part of his body, where Jon would have to return Rickon behind his army.

I only trained with stationary targets, and when watching Rickon running in a straight line, couldn't believe Ramsay kept missing (I could have hit him) - it didn't look like they were intentional misses. Ramsay hunts women with his bow, he's used to shooting at moving targets. His aim sucked, imo.