S02.E11: Vengeance Is Mine

[Athena]

Quote

Claire and the Highlanders are sent north after the Jacobite leaders decide to halt their march on London.  A band of redcoats makes trouble for the Scots, leading to a most unexpected reunion for Claire.

Note: This is the No Book Talk thread. No book talk including "It was different in the books." Bookwalkers are strongly discouraged from posting and liking in this thread.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

First thought upon watching: WTF is Jamie thinking? I didn't agree with those who either last episode or the one before said he wasn't too bright, but I began to rethink my position here.  He's encouraging the BPC to march on toward London?  Why?  How stupid was that?  They wouldn't take London.  Then I realized, that he thought he'd be changing history if he could get the Jacobites to march to England in 5 days, which apparently, they didn't do originally.  (I don't know, didn't look up the specifics of the war.)  But, since I thought the main goal was to avoid Culloden, wouldn't they also be changing history if he backed the generals and the Jacobite force retreated and then the Highlanders lost all hope and gave up the war altogether?  In fact, wouldn't that mean fewer lives lost overall and so a better resolution to the original quandary?  

Other than that idiocy (and Claire is now a dentist, boy she can just do it all, can't she?) I enjoyed the rest of the episode.  It was more like the first season episodes that I liked.  

ETA: forgot to mention that I really liked the bit of realism that it took Murtaugh a few swings to completely chop off the duke's head.  

Edited June 18, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
realism

[areca]

Why?  How stupid was that?

To get home takes them to Culloden.

[Scaeva]

I think it is part desperation as well, though not stupid. He knows after all that the decision to retreat ends disastrously, and results in Culloden. Continuing towards London offers the possibility, however remote, that they may outfox the armies facing them and succeed in capturing the capital. At worst it ends in a disastrous defeat on the scale of Culloden, just on a later date and further south. Jamie really has nothing to lose by suggesting the more aggressive plan. He knows the only alternative fails.

It is good to see Bonnie Prince Charlie portrayed with some redeeming qualities in the last couple episodes. He's still a bit of an ambitious, arrogant ass of course, but he's also brave and has a humane side. I like that BPC and Dougal, who I get the feeling we're not supposed to like, have moments (if fleeting) where you almost want to root for them. 

[Primetimer]

Old friends (and frenemies) come out of the woodwork when Claire gets separated from the group and needs saving.

View the full article

[nara]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

First thought upon watching: WTF is Jamie thinking? I didn't agree with those who either last episode or the one before said he wasn't too bright, but I began to rethink my position here.  He's encouraging the BPC to march on toward London?  Why?  How stupid was that?  They wouldn't take London.  Then I realized, that he thought he'd be changing history if he could get the Jacobites to march to England in 5 days, which apparently, they didn't do originally.  (I don't know, didn't look up the specifics of the war.)  

I had that same exact reaction at first.  WTF Jamie!  Then it occurred to me that perhaps drawing back for the winter is what led them to Culloden.  I'll have to read up on the history.  I think the Lord General thought he made the best decision he could have done with the information they had.  At the same time, if you are going to rebel against the king, you better not fall back for winter.  Why would the Enlish troops stop for the winter?  They would continue to advance and use their size advantage.  Particularly since the Scottish lowlands and Northern England did not rise up in support, they would have retreated and become sitting ducks.

 

Anyway, what a great episode!  I enjoyed all parts of it (after I stopped yelling at Jamie in the beginning.)  Even the part with the valet knocking the wig off made me LOL.  Little did I know then how prophetic it was.

I thought the dentist thing was pretty reasonable.  She's a healer and has to do all kinds of healing.  Unfortunately, the only dentistry she knows is to floss and brush teeth regularly and to extract teeth.  I felt bad for Rupert, reminiscing about Angus. :(

Badass move by Dougal, leaping onto Rupert's horse!  My regards to the stuntman!  I love it when shows allow someone other than the main hero(es) to be heroic.  This episode had a lot of that.

It was smart of Claire to use her English accent to save the group.  I was hoping the Fergus would go with her as her French servant, because he is much better at deception than she is. but oh well.  BTW, wasn't it awfully careless of the Redcoats to not check the church for any other people?

I laughed when Murtagh asked what we've all been thinking--that Jamie taking Claire to wife had led him into danger more than once!

I enjoyed seeing Munro again.  

When the Redcoats took her to the house, I was a little worried that Blackjack would be there, and I was pleased to see Mary Hawkins instead.  Very, very glad to see her smiling expression and FLAT stomach.  By the way, how does an English duke have his estate in Scotland--or are they still in Northern England?

I was floored that Sandringham ordered the attack in Paris.  i couldn't quite understand the rape of Mary.  Did he not realize she would be with Claire?  or did he simply not give orders to leave her alone and the men he hired took advantage of the situation?  Mary's virginity was an important bargaining chip for arranging a marriage alliance.  I cannot believe he was so careless with her.  It was really satisfying to see both Murtagh and Mary get their vengeance, though I could have done without Murtagh displaying Sandringham's head to someone like Mary Hawkins.  Now we just need to get a similar scene with Jamie and Claire killing Blackjack.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Scaeva said:

I think it is part desperation as well, though not stupid. He knows after all that the decision to retreat ends disastrously, and results in Culloden.

But Jamie doesn't actually know this at all.  All he knows, from earlier in the season is that the battle at Culloden ends disastrously.  He doesn't know how the Scots and English get there. (At least, Claire, earlier in the Season didn't know.  Then suddenly, last episode she knew that the Scots won Prestopans, so...I don't know what to think.   Does she know how they got there or not?)  If we are to believe her earlier, then Claire doesn't know/remember how the battles all happened to bring them to Culloden.  Therefore, she wouldn't know that retreating for the winter directly results in Culloden, and neither would Jamie.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

29 minutes ago, nara said:

I was floored that Sandringham ordered the attack in Paris.  i couldn't quite understand the rape of Mary.  Did he not realize she would be with Claire?  

I think the duke explained that he didn't realize Mary would be with Claire, so her rape was not planned.  

Quote

 It was really satisfying to see both Murtagh and Mary get their vengeance, though I could have done without Murtagh displaying Sandringham's head to someone like Mary Hawkins.

But I did enjoy her calmly suggesting they should go afterward.  :)  Go Mary!

Quote

 Now we just need to get a similar scene with Jamie and Claire killing Blackjack.

Here, Here!

[Daisy]

When Rupert got a bullet in the eye, I thought for a moment it was Murtuagh and I would have been, sad, sad, sad. Holy sugar I wasn't expecting someone to be beheaded (like that) but I remember Murtuagh saying that he'd get retribution for the women so that was a good call back. I wonder what the repercussions of Sandringham dying (basically being murdered) would mean. 

This season has flown by. 2 more episodes. I ken they can't - but I do wish they could find a way to stop the fall at Culloden. 

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, Scaeva said:

He knows the only alternative fails.

I really liked that while scene. It's insane to attack London, but you know how it ends. So, roll the hard six. 

3 hours ago, Scaeva said:

t is good to see Bonnie Prince Charlie portrayed with some redeeming qualities in the last couple episodes.

I must have missed those. All I'm seeing is "god wants me to rule mark me" and he doesn't care at all about the Highland way of life. If they really want to change history? Take that ax to him. 

I really liked that Murtuagh was like,  "Uh no time travel you're not the boss of me anymore." 

Loved the ending. 

I really hope that Claire being there has changed things. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Damn, I know sometimes this show can get graphic and bloody but for once I was all for it. Mary killing the valet and Murtagh killing Sandringham made me feel like finally we got some well deserved vengeance (and I know that Claire is not going to be down with her and Jamie getting their revenge on BJR until after he's knocked up Mary in the next year so I'll take what I can get this season).

Couldn't have happened to two nicer guys. I rolled my eyes when the valet said, "I totally didn't want to rape anyone but Sandringham made me!" Bitch, please. And Sandringham is the worst. Such a slimy sleazeball. Boo hoo, he thinks Claire is going to feel sorry for him because times are so tough that his cook only comes three days a week now? Of course now I'm worried that the British are just going to add this to the list of Jamie's crimes. It's not like he's going to defend himself by saying, "I didn't kill them! My loyal guy Murtagh and this girl Mary did!"

I was cracking up that Mary was the practical one who said they should go after they killed two people in the kitchen. I just hope they have enough time to let her change into a proper dress so she isn't walking around in a night gown. Good thinking on her part when the valet brought her into the kitchen and she pretended she tried to run away because she didn't want to marry that loyalist guy.

Heh, loved Jamie and Murtagh trying to decipher Claire's Gaelic. Honestly, I'm impressed that she knew enough to cobble together a letter that they could kind of understand.

I was really worried that Munro was going to be killed by the British soldiers outside of Sandringham's place. Stay alive, Munro!

Poor Fergus. First his friend dies and then he loses an eye in a really painful way. He's having a terrible week.

Edited June 19, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[SandyToes]

"I think we should go now."  Hee!  Nice bit of levity. Everything in this episode was unexpected for me. And Scaeva, I, too, found BPC a little likeable this week, although I can't put my finger exactly on why. Dougal saving Rupert, Rupert missing Angus, Murtaugh (le sigh), Hugh Munro, Mary, just a lot of nice bits form the supporting characters. Gaelic writing and grammar lessons had me cracking up.  One of my favorite episodes (despite the gore) of the entire series.

[Latverian Diplomat]

If they were going to do vampires, it seems like a reimagining of Edward as a creepy predator who gets staked by Bella's mom would have been a better way to go. That would have integrated the themes of the original with some actual satire and commentary on the romanticizing of creepy, obsessive boyfriends in pop culture.

[WatchrTina]

Quote

Poor Fergus. First his friend dies and then he loses an eye in a really painful way. He's having a terrible week.

Psssst ElectricBoogaloo I think you meant Rupert.

And Latverian Diplomat I think you're in the wrong thread.  We have time-travelers here but no vampires.

[Archery]

Okay, I feel better now.  I'd been staring at Latverian Diplomat's post thinking I was missing some obvious literary device relating to the characters' interaction.

[ganesh]

I liked Claire taking some ownership too: these people are under my protection too. 

And Fergus came up with the plan for Claire to "faint." 

Maybe Fergus is Gellis' direct ancestor.  Claire's legend gets passed down through the generations to her. I like my original theory better. 

[kayma]

I liked that Jamie was trying to change the outcome. He doesn't know how it'll turn out but it's worth a shot to attempt what was probably a different strategy.

Really, I just want him and his clansmen and Rupert and Murtaugh and Claire and Fergus to go home and live happily ever after. I'm pretty sure they're not going to harm Fergus too badly and obviously Jamie and Claire will survive. I'm holding out hope for Murtaugh. I just love Murtaugh.

I'm glad to be done with Sandringham. He was always so obviously duplicitous that I never understood why anyone listened to him. I like that Mary got her own revenge. Maybe she'll start to grow up now. I loved that Murtaugh was able to get vengeance for Mary and Claire. He looked so pleased with how it all turned out. (I will really be gutted if we lose Murtaugh.)

[Daisy]

If we lose Murtaugh - I will not be a happy little girl. 

[Glade]

Wow!  Sandringham was always a fun character to have around--but his final betrayals were far too much to let slide.   The episode title made me keep expecting to see BJR show up around every corner.  It was really too bad that Dougal couldn't come up with another English name fast enough, given that the redcoats already knew Claire by the name of Beecham.  I'm glad that Claire didn't get to the point of actually pitching BJR to Sandringham as an alternative husband for Mary, though I still think it's pretty obvious that he'll just marry her because she's pregnant with his dead brother's child.

Perhaps if the Jacobite cause was aimed at recreating the independent kingdom of Scotland it would have had a better a chance of succeeding and actually benefiting the highlanders in some tangible way.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

14 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Psssst ElectricBoogaloo I think you meant Rupert.

And Latverian Diplomat I think you're in the wrong thread.  We have time-travelers here but no vampires.

Hee, thanks for catching my brain fart!

[FoxyA]

Finally some humor, good character interplay, action. Did you notice who wrote this episode ? The author of the books. She knows her characters & how to write them.

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 8:20 PM, nara said:

When the Redcoats took her to the house, I was a little worried that Blackjack would be there, and I was pleased to see Mary Hawkins instead.  Very, very glad to see her smiling expression and FLAT stomach.

Me too. I thought for sure it was going to be Blackjack and I was so happy to see Mary.

Off with his head. Yay, Murtaugh!

I worried for Fergus when the redcoats was shooting at them.

Poor Rupert, that had to hurt I'm glad he didn't die.

Jamie and Murtaugh trying to read Claire's letter :-)

It was a good episode but It bugs me when it's dark and people are riding horses and walking through a forest under a canopy of trees and they can find their way when I can't find my way around my house in the dark lol.

[Ziggy]

On 7/13/2019 at 12:23 AM, foxfreakinmulder said:

Jamie and Murtaugh trying to read Claire's letter 🙂

Murtaugh:  "She's even misspelled 'help!'"

I love that scene!!!

[chaifan]

I was not looking forward to more Mary at all when she entered the room at Sandringham's.  Her little girl voice is just soooo annoying.  But I love how she went from "what? talk to a beggar?  I just can't!" to stabbing a man with barely a second thought and not even a flinch at a decapitated head being presented to her.  "I think we should leave."  Best line of the episode, said perfectly with no affectation. 

I was also surprised Claire didn't take Fergus along.  She could have easily passed him off as her servant or ward.

[Camera One]

This was one of the better episodes this season.  I actually felt engaged by the plot, with characters helping each other and acting intelligent.  I also really enjoyed seeing Mary again.  It did get too gory for me at the end, though.

I too was rather appalled at Jaime supporting an attack on London at the beginning, so it was good to hear he had a reason for it.  Though that would have led to all of them being convicted and executed, so it wasn't much of a plan either.

They seemed to be missing a scene to show us that Jaime avoided the trap because of the letter.  

In the "Previously" segment, they showed the teenaged British soldier, so I kept waiting for him to show up and identify Claire as a liar.

Was the guy that Mary stab the one who raped her?  I thought he was the person holding Claire down, since Claire recognized the birthmark.

I watched Season 1 so long ago that I can't remember Munro.  I'm thinking I should re-watch Season 1 before I proceed further, though I don't think I can go through all that violence again.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I just rewatched the first episode of the series again, and it's interesting the Reverend mentions how the Duke of Sandringham died under mysterious circumstances before Culloden, and it just happened in this Season 2 episode.   I really enjoyed that pilot episode and it's a little sad that the show basically devolved into a festival of violence and rape rather than the mix of time travel/historical fiction I thought it would be.  I really liked Claire seeing the ruins of the Castle in the past.  It would have been fun if there had been a flashback of Claire visiting Paris in 1945, and she visited some of the same places again in the 1700s.  

[gingerella]

Wow, so a lot just happened in this episode, didn’t it?!? I have to give props to the cinematographers and editors for the opening scenes in every episode. I look to them now as a visual amuse bouche of what is to come, and what kingpin scene the opening refers to. When I saw the powdered wig I wasn’t sure, but as soon as it fell down I said ‘The Duke!’ And then promptly forgot about it until it became clear that we were seeing the Duke’s last supper. Well done Show, well done indeed!

So, I was initially totally confused as to why Jamie was the only one pushing for a march on London, and then I finally realized that DUH, he is trying once again to change history, and I just felt like, good on you man, at least you keep trying different approaches! 

I loved Jamie watching Claire sleep, and was trying to make out what he said to her when she asked him, if got most of it, but not after he said “But I can say things while ye sleep.” Did anyone catch what he says after that? And not for nothing but who the hell would think Gaelic could be soooo hot? Not me...

This whole British-army-just-can’t-leave-the-local-Scots-alone is wearing on my last nerve. There is no reason to shoot at every group of individual Scottish person they encounter and yet that seems to be their M.O. It makes me realize what assholes the British were to so many countries and peoples around the world, and yet those same countries seem happy to be part of the Commonwealth, I just don’t understand that at all. And 275 years after Culloden, Scotland still yearns to be free and cannae make it happen. What’s ‘Ay yi yi’ in Gaelic?!?

Dougal was once again the man I was rooting for in S01 again, helping Rupert, making a plan with Jamie, and taking the risk of walking out of the church first. Thats the old Dougal MacKenzie that I liked so much last season. I loved that he stopped Jamie from taking Claire out, reminding him what would await him if anyone recognized him as "Red Jamie". Those are the moments where I want Dougal's character to sink further into, showing his humanity, but he has built up walls so high around his feelings that no sooner do we glimpse his kinder side, then his walls are back up once again. Jamie and Dougal quickly planning who would go where and why, that's the stuff of S01 and I liked it verra much, ye ken?!

Despite the heaviness of this episode, which felt like a good old S01 episode, there was a fair amount of humorous lines peppered throughout. The best part was Jamie and Murtagh trying to decipher Claire’s note in Gaelic, and Murtagh’s utter disbelief and dismay, “She’s even misspelled ‘Help’...!” I think I caught Jamie saying something back like, "Aye, we'll give her Gaelic lessons when we see her" or something to that effect? I mean, the funny lines are so entwined into tense moments and delivered deadpan in the most delicious way. And I enjoyed seeing old friends like Hugh Munroe, Mary, and even Sandringham, until the Duke went too far at last. I was afraid that valet would rape Claire sine he was part of that crew, and was relieved he did not. Also, Claire, if you suspect the valet to be one of the rapists, why would you call him out to his face when you are clearly outnumbered?! I kept waiting for her to pull out her little sgian-dubh and stab either the valet or the Duke, but nope. And I wanted to slap Mary in the face when she whined about not wanting to speak to a beggar. But she pulled through, thank god! She’s a wee bit slow on the uptake, that one, but she managed to even get out a good line before the end of the episode, "we should leave now", totally deadpan, ya think Mary?!?

So with 'Wanted' posters all over every town of Red Jamie, that answered my question of whether or not King Louis obtained an actual radon for Jamie before they left France. I guess not, and really, Louis had no real impetus to follow through on that, but I am growing tired of people talking bullshit and never actually delivering. Louis, the Duke, etc. Also, if you know you’re wanted and they're calling you 'Red Jamie', why not shave yer damn head, ye ken?!? I know he couldn't dye his hair at that point because I don't think hair dye existed, but aye laddie, at least make a try to be discreet.

I am glad we’re rid of the Duke once and for all, he got what was coming to him for being a two-faced bastard. The fact that he died such an undignified and grotesque death is equally deserved under the circumstances. I don’t remember Murtagh promising vengeance for the Paris but I remember it happened on his watch of Claire and Mary, so I’m glad he was able to avenge them both. Murtagh is the man I want on my team, he is crafty as hell and always gets shit done! These Highland guys, at least Jamie and Murtagh, they're smart as hell, and a Viewer forgets this fact when they're looking at them in their kilts and such, running around the moors and forests looking very rugged, but when push comes to shove they always manage to pull a good plan out of their ass at the last minute.

Oh yes, one more thing, what the hell happened to Fergus? Last I saw him it was at the encampment, just as the British started firing on the group, and Clare, Jamie, and the A-team rode off, but what of Fergus?!

ETA: When Jamie said their orders were to ride to Inverness I felt dread because if they’re headed to Inverness then the Stones are nearby, so it stands to reason that there will be a pit stop there again so as to get us full circle to the first episode of this season...and that makes me really sad. I want these crazy kids to go off and live happily ever after, even if it means the show ends right now, that’s how invested I am in them...what the hell is happening to me?!?

Edited April 27, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

26 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Oh yes, one more thing, what the hell happened to Fergus? Last I saw him it was at the encampment, just as the British started firing on the group, and Clare, Jamie, and the A-team rode off, but what of Fergus?!

I saw him riding behind Murtagh during  the A-team escape. He didn’t have his own horse. He was there at the church helping Claire when she worked on Rupert’s eye. He went with Dougal et al because only Jamie and Murtagh headed off to rescue Claire. 

[Pallas]

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Oh yes, one more thing, what the hell happened to Fergus? Last I saw him it was at the encampment, just as the British started firing on the group, and Clare, Jamie, and the A-team rode off, but what of Fergus?!

Fergus rode with Murtagh, and was in the church with them all. He suggested that Claire pretend to faint. He probably got taken back to Lallybroch with Ross or by Dougal on his way to Leoch.

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

This whole British-army-just-can’t-leave-the-local-Scots-alone is wearing on my last nerve. There is no reason to shoot at every group of individual Scottish person they encounter and yet that seems to be their M.O.

I'm not sure I see that, here. The British patrol, fighting an insurgency in support of James Stuart (son of a dethroned King), comes across a formation of rebel soldiers, and engages them. 

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

So with 'Wanted' posters all over every town of Red Jamie, that answered my question of whether or not King Louis obtained an actual pardon for Jamie before they left France.

I'm not sure. Jamie and Claire seemed safe and unconcerned at Lallybroch after they returned from France. But Jamie's pardon would more likely have been a parole. He broke parole, and then some, by taking up arms against the government. Charles's letter "proved" that, and Red Jamie's been identified since then: by the young soldier they released, for one. 

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

When I saw the powdered wig I wasn’t sure, but as soon as it fell down I said ‘The Duke!’ And then promptly forgot about it until it became clear that we were seeing the Duke’s last supper. Well done Show, well done indeed!

Absolutely! And also enjoyed the native-Gaelic-speakers baffled by Sassenach Gaelic, and the best curtain line yet in all of Outlander:

"I think we'd better go." 

[Anothermi]

Now that we are back in Scotland... every time I see a bunch of Red Coats closing in on our party I start shouting NO..NO...NO because I beleived BJR is lurking somewhere not far awy. (i.e. The Red Coats would take them to the rock BJR was hiding under.) Movie PTSD.

Perhaps I'll have to watch this episode again without the anxiety that pervaded my initial viewing. I knew that BJR had been seriously injured by Jamie in France but I didn't trust that he wouldn't just be sidelined yet still somehow In Charge And Dangerous!

Needless to say I was so exhausted by the end that I couldn't even celebrate Sandringham's well deserved demise. 

But I loved the Jamie and Murtagh show. Scratching their head's at Claire's Gaelic (Sandringham didn't know it was almost unreadable). Murtagh complaining that they'd stuped to becoming horse theives due to Jamie being married to Claire. And Jamie resolutely refusing to deny his love for Claire was worth everything when Murtagh asks if he had any regrets after all they'd been through because of her. 

Dougal redeemed himself, again. I agree with @gingerella that he was acting more like S01 E01 Dougal than the more recent incompetent schemer. His idea of how to wage war in “these modern times” 😉 may be out of date, but he knows how to bluff his way through a dangerous encounter—once again RIP Lieutenant Jeremy Foster who was the other dangerous encounter-of-note—by the stream—during the Rent episode cliffhanger. 

I definitely worried that the second time Claire used the English-Damsel-in-Distress ploy would lead her straight to BJR. Thank goodness it was to the weasel Sandringham. 

Plus we got to see Hugh Monro again. He is such a memorable minor character. 

Murtagh! The Avenger! He really takes his oaths to others seriously. I found myself comparing his slaughter of Sandringham to his only-armed-with-a-knife victory over the wounded boar when he tried to prove his worthiness to Jamie's future mother. 

But I didn't remember him making a vow to either Mary or Claire after the rape attack. After a bit of a search I found that it was Jamie to whom he vowed he “would lay just vengence” before because he had failed to prevent the attack after giving his vow to Jamie to protect them and Claire's unborn baby. (it was in the episode after La Dame Blanche)

But in this episode he kneeled to Claire and Mary (both shattered by witnessing his violence) to lay his just vengence at their feet. I guess that is why I harkened back to the boar episode. Murtagh is a man's man—as much as Dougal is—and chooses to express his respect and honour as a man would. Jamie understands Murtagh's need to exact vengeance comes from a place as deep as his own need regarding BJR. It's a Man Thing. It looked like the women could have done without the head. 

And finally: As has been foretold, Claire is so much less—crazy-making—now she is back in Scotland. She comes up with plans that don't land everyone in greater danger (at least not recently); she utilizes her healing skills on a regular basis—regardless of the unconducive-to-healing circumstances; and lastly, she no longer feels she has to lie to Jamie. HE—on the other hand...I'll keep you safe—indeed. Looking forward to how he maneuvers her into that!

[SassAndSnacks]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

So, I was initially totally confused as to why Jamie was the only one pushing for a march on London, and then I finally realized that DUH, he is trying once again to change history, and I just felt like, good on you man, at least you keep trying different approaches! 

Gah, I feel for the lad.  You have to believe that there is a sense of desperation there, knowing what he knows.  Since he is aware of how it ends, he must constantly be searching for opportunities to re-route history.  

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

I loved Jamie watching Claire sleep, and was trying to make out what he said to her when she asked him, if got most of it, but not after he said “But I can say things while ye sleep.” Did anyone catch what he says after that? And not for nothing but who the hell would think Gaelic could be soooo hot? Not me...

I don't have the quotes directly (isn't that @Anothermi's role here!), but basically, he's telling her that he says things to her while she's sleeping because the words would sound foolish if she was awake.  

While ye sleep in my arms, I can say things to ye that would be daft and silly waking, and your dreams will know the truth of  them. Go back to sleep, mo duinne.

Sigh...

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

Despite the heaviness of this episode, which felt like a good old S01 episode, there was a fair amount of humorous lines peppered throughout. The best part was Jamie and Murtagh trying to decipher Claire’s note in Gaelic, and Murtagh’s utter disbelief and dismay, “She’s even misspelled ‘Help’...!” I think I caught Jamie saying something back like, "Aye, we'll give her Gaelic lessons when we see her" or something to that effect? I mean, the funny lines are so entwined into tense moments and delivered deadpan in the most delicious way.

That's the beauty of Diana Gabaldon, who wrote this particular episode.  

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

So with 'Wanted' posters all over every town of Red Jamie, that answered my question of whether or not King Louis obtained an actual radon for Jamie before they left France. I guess not, and really, Louis had no real impetus to follow through on that, but I am growing tired of people talking bullshit and never actually delivering. Louis, the Duke, etc. Also, if you know you’re wanted and they're calling you 'Red Jamie', why not shave yer damn head, ye ken?!?

 

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

I'm not sure. Jamie and Claire seemed safe and unconcerned at Lallybroch after they returned from France. But Jamie's pardon would more likely have been a parole. He broke parole, and then some, by taking up arms against the government. Charles's letter "proved" that, and Red Jamie's been identified since then: by the young soldier they released, for one. 

I don't think the show did such a good job of setting this up, but basically, by making his "vow" to BPC, Jamie became a traitor.  Then, he became an actual leader of the rebellion - supplying men, leading them into battle, being a key advisor to BPC.  He became notorious as a fierce warrior and a critical cog in the uprising's early success.

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

This whole British-army-just-can’t-leave-the-local-Scots-alone is wearing on my last nerve. There is no reason to shoot at every group of individual Scottish person they encounter and yet that seems to be their M.O.

I'm not sure I see that, here. The British patrol, fighting an insurgency in support of James Stuart (son of a dethroned King), comes across a formation of rebel soldiers, and engages them. 

Agree.

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

Claire is so much less—crazy-making—now she is back in Scotland. She comes up with plans that don't land everyone in greater danger (at least not recently); she utilizes her healing skills on a regular basis—regardless of the unconducive-to-healing circumstances; and lastly, she no longer feels she has to lie to Jamie.

I really love the exchange she and Jamie have in the church when they are surrounded.  "Am I not Lady Broch Tuarach? Are these men not my responsibility too?"  He would never sacrifice her, but she did it herself.  It circles back to the points that were made in the previous episode thread that these two work so well together because they both fearlessly throw themselves into doing what they believe to be right. It is never just about the two of them but about the greater whole.  

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

While ye sleep in my arms, I can say things to ye that would be daft and silly waking, and your dreams will know the truth of  them. Go back to sleep, mo duinne.

Thank you! I thought this was the gist of it but I was missing the part about dreams...*sigh* Such great writing, definitely written by a woman.

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

6 hours ago, Pallas said:

20 hours ago, gingerella said:

This whole British-army-just-can’t-leave-the-local-Scots-alone is wearing on my last nerve. There is no reason to shoot at every group of individual Scottish person they encounter and yet that seems to be their M.O.

I'm not sure I see that, here. The British patrol, fighting an insurgency in support of James Stuart (son of a dethroned King), comes across a formation of rebel soldiers, and engages them. 

Agree.

You both are correct, I think I said that more because so far, we see the British marching through people’s lands shaking them down for money and more (BJRs initial foray into Lallybroch for example), red coat deserters raping and stealing and so on from the Scots (the Jamie and Claire outdoor love scene debacle), and then there are the marauders who are shaking down crofters and burning their homes, I’m just tired of seeing the Scots be treated like shit and I feel for them. The British told Dougal and Jamie’s crew at the church to go home and live their lives there - and honestly, I thought they might just kill some of their crew just because - but when the Red coats , deserters, vigilantes and others come through your home at any given moment to take what they want, it just gets old. Plus, it makes me curious as to how Colum has managed to stay above the fray without having red coats bother him at Leoch...I wonder if that is fleshed out in the books because it feels like Leoch is sort of protected more or less, not sure if Beaufort is as well, or if the red coats only mess with villagers because they are more defenseless.

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I really love the exchange she and Jamie have in the church when they are surrounded.  "Am I not Lady Broch Tuarach? Are these men not my responsibility too?"  He would never sacrifice her, but she did it herself.

This was such a wonderful exchange, and the look on Jamie’s face was perfect, because he knew he had no argument against Claire’s question- it was a matter of responsibility and honor and that is a love language that Jamie and Claire both share. 

4 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Now that we are back in Scotland... every time I see a bunch of Red Coats closing in on our party I start shouting NO..NO...NO because I believed BJR is lurking somewhere not far awy. (i.e. The Red Coats would take them to the rock BJR was hiding under.) Movie PTSD.

OMG yes, I was thinking the same thing, is there any therapy group we can join for this? I don’t think it will ever stop until or unless I see this freak dead, Dead, DEAD, for sure, like 5,000,000% deader than a doornail dead.