Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Edith]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I can't see how Tyrion could ever hold the Iron Throne, honestly, if he doesn't have a dragon.

You think the dragons will survive the long night? 

I don't, in fact I think that Bran vision of a dragon flying over KL is going to be next season when Dany arrives to the dragonpit. So whoever sit in the throne won't be because it has a dragon.

[Raachel2008]

7 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

The only reason why I'm not so certain of whether he and Dany will have a child/children together is because of the original outline that had Jon/Arya as endgame. 

But many people never saw this outline is in the books. For me, at least, it was pretty clear that somehow down the road Dany and Jon would meet and something would happen, ice and fire blah bah. 

23 minutes ago, Edith said:

You think the dragons will survive the long night? 

I don't,

I don't either. I could see, though, a surviving dragon hibernation or flying away to never be seen again.

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Book Jon's story is more about identity not about embracing life again (this is more ADWD Tyrion's story). 

But show Jon is a 100% about identity, has always been.

22 hours ago, anamika said:

Arya rules Winterfell and Tyrion sits on the IT

I can't see Arya endgame being about ruling Winterfell. 

[WindyNights]

48 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

But many people never saw this outline is in the books. For me, at least, it was pretty clear that somehow down the road Dany and Jon would meet and something would happen, ice and fire blah bah. 

I don't either. I could see, though, a surviving dragon hibernation or flying away to never be seen again.

But show Jon is a 100% about identity, has always been.

I can't see Arya endgame being about ruling Winterfell. 

I'm talking about his seasonal arc. Jon's arc in season 6 isn't about his identity. He's really just depressed and it's about him getting out of it.

Jon doesn't really wrestle with what he is now. He's just the same dude really. Death didn't change him. Being betrayed by his brothers did. 

He never says that he's some monster or that he's not even human anymore. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by WindyNights

[Edith]

7 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

The idea that Dany's endgame is being a womb is horrifying. 

It is! That's why I always hated it but boatsex put it back at the table.

In fact if we count the fact that the show let out the complete prophesy in the first place, just as they did with Cersei's valonqar part  (and no cuz it's not going to happen but because they don't like to spoiled the shocking moments!) but also they version of the HOTU vision in season 2. You have Dany walking away from the throne/power (happens in season 7) and then walking away from love/family (season 8?) to fulfill her quest.  

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, WindyNights said:

I'd recommend reading GRRM's other stories. 

He's the type of guy that once helped writed a story where an old man transferred his mind into a 16 year girl's body then he's raped by his grandson and impregnated.

GRRM hasn't written anything like ASOIAF, so pointing to works he has written in other genres as supposed evidence for what he will do in ASOIAF is not a useful exercise.

 

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1) Well no because I don't think he even views what ASOS Jaime did to Cersei as rape so it is more likely to be more troubling views on sex. You'll have to find another example if you want to convince me.

I did give you another example (Tyrion and the kinslayer curse). I'm willing to give GRRM the benefit of the doubt that he understands what rape is.

 

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2) There is no kinslayer curse. It's all superstition. That's not a rule. Also outline Tyrion had a story where he wasn't a kinslayer. Give me another one.

I'm afraid you can't write it off as superstition. Curses, like magic, are real in the world of ASOIAF: the Harrenhal curse, e.g. If GRRM intended to come up with this big curse and then exempt Tyrion, it would have been better for GRRM to omit it altogether rather than make a big fuss about it only to exempt his fave from its consequences. Not surprisingly, though, he does exempt Tyrion, because Tyrion is special and different by virtue of being GRRM's fave and the rules don't apply. The same will apply to Jon.

 

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3) The show made Beric into a living being where he's undead in the books. They had Sansa raped by Ramsay. I don't think they did it GRRM's way because Jon would have to wrestle with his inhumanity so they made him alive instead. Notice how Show Jon doesn't really change. He's sad for a bit then he gets over it. Why even kill him? There was no real point to it.

Why even bother with making his parentage and legitimacy a central plot point if post-resurrection Jon is an undead husk of a human being barely kept alive? That's the more pressing question, one you've failed to answer.

 

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4) GRRM says it himself. He's responding to Tolkien and Gandalf hence he's showing us what he thinks a "resurrected" person should look like. It's like when people say that GRRM is a hypocritical for putting a Dark Lord in his series when he's deconstructing the trope.

He's not "deconstructing" the trope if he rehashes it unironically, although a lot of fans have been suckered into believing ASOIAF is some sort of all-encompassing deconstruction of the genre when it really isn't. And his complaint was that Gandalf should have stayed dead. If he truly believed that, he would have left Jon dead as well, but of course he doesn't appear to view Jon's resurrection as equivalent to Gandalf's resurrection because his faves are special and the rules don't apply to them.

Lady Stoneheart and Beric may be shambling husks of their former selves, but if you believe for one second that Jon will be the same, you've been fooled by GRRM.

 

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The whole idea that Jon will be the same is based on the author lying which is a bad way to base theories. That's when desire drives reason.

I don't think GRRM thinks he's lying when he talks about Beric being a fire wight, only that he'll bend or break the rules for Jon in a way that he didn't for Beric and LSH while telling himself that he's keeping it real when it comes to resurrection, much like GRRM has deluded himself into thinking that he's managed to write a series of books free of rapes written from the POV of the rape victim while writing Dany as raped by Drogo in AGOT. The show, where Jon appears to be the same for all intents and purposes post-resurrection, strongly supports my interpretation, not yours.

 

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@Eyes So I have to ask you but if GRRM goes this route with Jon then what? Are you going to be mad? Because it seems like you have a bit of distaste for the idea that Jon will be undead for the rest of the story.

Oh, he'll be undead, it just won't matter when it comes to Jon's road to kingship in any meaningful way, just as it doesn't in the show, and just as the kinslaying curse doesn't apply to Tyrion. And I'd ask you not to speculate about my personal feelings on the subject.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

Crypt images.

 

http://imgur.com/a/oBPnz

Edited July 15, 2017 by GrailKing

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Edith said:

You think the dragons will survive the long night? 

I don't, in fact I think that Bran vision of a dragon flying over KL is going to be next season when Dany arrives to the dragonpit. So whoever sit in the throne won't be because it has a dragon.

I don't know, but my point was simply that Tyrion would never be able to take or hold the Iron Throne if he didn't have a dragon.  Not that he lacks the smarts, I'm sure he could do the job, but he'd never be able to rally the support on his own, just because of how he's viewed by Westerosi society.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I can't see Arya endgame being about ruling Winterfell. 

I strongly believe that in the books,  Arya will end up in charge of the North with her pack of wolves à la Queen Nymeria.  Arya, Bran and Jon have the closest connection to and understanding of Winterfell, the North and it's politics. I don't think it is Jon, and it maybe Bran with Arya has his heir. But if Bran ends up being like BloodRaven then it's Arya in charge of Winterfell.

2 hours ago, Edith said:

It is! That's why I always hated it but boatsex put it back at the table.

What? Why would Dany having sex imply that she is going to die in child birth? Sorry, but that's just nonsense. Dany can have all the sex in the world without being in danger of dying. I don't think she is going to anyway - at least not in childbirth. If she goes down, it will be while taking down the WW and saving the world.

One more day to go! Will we be continuing to discuss the show on here after the season starts?

Curious to see the opening credits. No more Essos. We will probably get KL, Old Town, Twins, WF and the wall. I wonder if Maisie Williams gets  stand alone credits this season, considering she is now an Emmy nominee with a busy acting schedule.

Edited July 15, 2017 by anamika

[WindyNights]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM hasn't written anything like ASOIAF, so pointing to works he has written in other genres as supposed evidence for what he will do in ASOIAF is not a useful exercise.

 

I did give you another example (Tyrion and the kinslayer curse). I'm willing to give GRRM the benefit of the doubt that he understands what rape is.

 

I'm afraid you can't write it off as superstition. Curses, like magic, are real in the world of ASOIAF: the Harrenhal curse, e.g. If GRRM intended to come up with this big curse and then exempt Tyrion, it would have been better for GRRM to omit it altogether rather than make a big fuss about it only to exempt his fave from its consequences. Not surprisingly, though, he does exempt Tyrion, because Tyrion is special and different by virtue of being GRRM's fave and the rules don't apply. The same will apply to Jon.

 

Why even bother with making his parentage and legitimacy a central plot point if post-resurrection Jon is an undead husk of a human being barely kept alive? That's the more pressing question, one you've failed to answer.

 

He's not "deconstructing" the trope if he rehashes it unironically, although a lot of fans have been suckered into believing ASOIAF is some sort of all-encompassing deconstruction of the genre when it really isn't. And his complaint was that Gandalf should have stayed dead. If he truly believed that, he would have left Jon dead as well, but of course he doesn't appear to view Jon's resurrection as equivalent to Gandalf's resurrection because his faves are special and the rules don't apply to them.

Lady Stoneheart and Beric may be shambling husks of their former selves, but if you believe for one second that Jon will be the same, you've been fooled by GRRM.

 

I don't think GRRM thinks he's lying when he talks about Beric being a fire wight, only that he'll bend or break the rules for Jon in a way that he didn't for Beric and LSH while telling himself that he's keeping it real when it comes to resurrection, much like GRRM has deluded himself into thinking that he's managed to write a series of books free of rapes written from the POV of the rape victim while writing Dany as raped by Drogo in AGOT. The show, where Jon appears to be the same for all intents and purposes post-resurrection, strongly supports my interpretation, not yours.

 

Oh, he'll be undead, it just won't matter when it comes to Jon's road to kingship in any meaningful way, just as it doesn't in the show, and just as the kinslaying curse doesn't apply to Tyrion. And I'd ask you not to speculate about my personal feelings on the subject.

1) So? One must always take into account an author's stories. Because at least then you'll find what he's interested in. Several characters in ASOIAF are present in some form in his other short stories.

 

2) Curses may be real. Remember the curse that Melisandre cast on the Three kings? Confirmed to be fake. She saw it in the flames and made a big spectacle of it so she could get Stannis to sacrifice Edric.

Even if they were real, you're speculating still. You're assuming that Tyrion has a happy ending or that he lives based on an outline that he's no longer following when Tyrion was a different character. Personally I don't think Tyrion survives the story.

 

On top of that, there is no evidence that there is an actual kinslaying curse. Prove that there is.

Also you do realize that he cut off Tyrion's nose, right?

 

3) Easy. Jon's parentage is something for Jon to have an internal conflict over and he and along with "Aegon" are GRRM's responses to Aragorn. He's having a dialogue with Tolkien with this story after all as he says so himself. Jon's reaction to his hidden parentage is the deconstruction. It's there to shatter him not empower him.

 

And he hasn't made it a central plot point of it. He hasn't gotten there yet. The show is and the show had Ramsay rape Sansa so....

 

GoodQueenAly says it best:

"Poor Jon. He’s going to be devastated by that news. And that revelation is going to become a question for the remainder of his arc - am I a hero because I choose to be a hero, or because I was destined to be a hero from before I was born? And that’s the question of ASOIAF, isn’t it? So much of the story is hammering in that being a hero isn’t this glorious destiny for a chosen few. Being a hero sucks. And it’s hard. And you do it even though you might never get recognized for doing it."

"So I don’t see R+L=J as a plot device, per se; rather, it’s, as @poorquentyn says, is the ultimate expression of that theme. It’s a way to demonstrate that heart in conflict, the key axis of GRRM’s story. Are you defined by what came before you, or are you what you choose to be? Are you the hero because it’s been foretold you would be the hero and you’re just another gear in the machine of prophecy, or are you someone who chooses to act in the hope of spring against the cold and darkness of winter? Or, alternately, are you able to escape what came before you, or are you bound to repeat the madness and blunders of those who came before you? Are all people, as Tyrion thinks, “puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us”, or are we our own characters with destinies we make for ourselves - good or ill?"

 

"I’d just add that Aegon’s role in ASOIAF sheds some interesting light on all this. GRRM’s using him to satirize the Chosen One narrative he’s deliberately undercutting with Jon. Aegon isn’t actually Rhaegar’s son, but Varys and Illyrio are using the romantic idea of the Secret Exile Prince to sell a self-conscious fantasy story within the larger story, one that said larger story will ultimately reject with fire. Meanwhile, for Rhaegar’s actual son, the truth about his parentage won’t be empowering. It will be shattering." 

 

Again it's not there for an endgame king. It's there for Jon to undergo an internal crisis about who he is. 

 

4) Except D & D have implied that GRRM's resurrection for Jon is going to differ between the books and the show. And GRRM's words support my interpretation not yours.

If Jon dies in the end (which I expect), D & D don't have to write about Jon becoming undead. They just brought him back the same. 

 

And you know Beric isn't a fire wight in the show either and yet he is in the books.

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, anamika said:

I wonder if Maisie Williams gets  stand alone credits this season, considering she is now an Emmy nominee with a busy acting schedule.

She already has one as of episode 610, I believe.

Why she only got a standalone credit midway through a season is anybody's guess, since you'd think that would be standardized on a seasonal basis.

But then, I've regularly struggled to figure out how the ordering works, particularly when you get further down, because the ordering shifts around seemingly for no reason at times.

[Maximum Taco]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Curious to see the opening credits. No more Essos. We will probably get KL, Old Town, Twins, WF and the wall.

The "Rules" that the showrunners have put out have said the title sequence must include King's Landing, Winterfell, the Wall and Dany's location (regardless of whether the location actually appears in the episode.) So the means we'll definitely get Dragonstone. Also the episode is titled 'Dragonstone', it'd be pretty amusing if it wasn't in the opening credits.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

1. Please keep the tone in here civil.
2. This is not the place to discuss books vs. show, take that discussion to the correct topic.
3. This is not the place to discuss endgame anything. It is for SEASON 7 spec and spoilers ONLY.

Further posts breaking any of the above will be removed in their entirety.

Thank you.

[Raachel2008]

14 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Crypt images.

 

http://imgur.com/a/oBPnz

That is a lot of snow, Winter has really arrived. 

Hugh I want to wipe that smirl off LF's face, and watching the pics I wonder if Jon breaking down while visiting the crypts is just about trying to not beat the shit out of LF.

One day!

[GrailKing]

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

She already has one as of episode 610, I believe.

Why she only got a standalone credit midway through a season is anybody's guess, since you'd think that would be standardized on a seasonal basis.

But then, I've regularly struggled to figure out how the ordering works, particularly when you get further down, because the ordering shifts around seemingly for no reason at times.

Maybe an age thing tie to tier?, Sophie didn't get it until she was 20, just as Maisie is now.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Maybe an age thing tie to tier?, Sophie didn't get it until she was 20, just as Maisie is now.

But again, why would that happen only midway through a season?

[GrailKing]

only the gods and laws of GOT know I guess.

[FemmyV]

On 7/14/2017 at 3:32 PM, SeanC said:

I can't see how Tyrion could ever hold the Iron Throne, honestly, if he doesn't have a dragon.

If he gets to the throne, he'll have two armies: Lannister army and the King's guard.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

If he gets to the throne, he'll have two armies: Lannister army and the King's guard.

The Lannister army doesn't report to him.  He's an outcast, as far as House Lannister is concerned.  The Kingsguard is seven people, and the City Watch (if that's what you're referring to) isn't enough to do anything beyond police King's Landing.

[paigow]

Is TV Dany unable to bear children? [Or old witch was lying?]

Does TV Arya know Edmure is alive?

[shireenbamfatheon]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Is TV Dany unable to bear children? [Or old witch was lying?]

Does TV Arya know Edmure is alive?

She's been banging Daario for years without any result, recently reinforced that she's barren during her meeting with the Dothraki and according to spoilers will do it again in the new season. Personally, I think revealing Dany is barren in the final season is a cop out and undermines her seasons-long arc where she believes the dragons are her only children and then decides to "adopt" the slaves as her children, replacing them with her actual children, the dragons, for a while. 

It's actually baffling that so many people are convinced Dany will either become Queen or her and Jon's future child will when:

1) A big theme in her storyline is that she's a conqueror and not a ruler (as Daario reinforced close to the end of the last season).

2) Her House of the Undying prophecy pretty much confirms she'll leave the IT for the Wall when she hears the call of a dragon (Jon) and meet with Drogo and Rhaego beyond the Wall (her death) during winter.

3) The spoilers show that someone once again seriously worries about Dany's sanity for like the fifth time.

4) The spoilers that indicate Varys might end up supporting an Aegon in the show anyway after Dany messes up and surprise surprise did you know that Jon's real name is Aegon?

GRRM does not seem the type to have the two young super hot super special protagonists who happen to be the last of their family get together, get the IT, rule in peace and prosperity and have a child to carry out their legacy. He did say the ending would be bittersweet. Maybe I'm just biased, no, I definitely am, but I think it's much more likely that the discovery of R+L=J isn't going to go over very well with Dany, since her recent belief that she was born to rule Westeros won't have her set aside for anyone, not that she should. But I don't think they're dragging out Jon finding out about his parentage till the final season, after he falls in love with Dany, for giggles.

[Brn2bwild]

I read "boat sex" completely differently.  To me, it says Dany will be the End Game Queen, as there is no reason for her and Jon to have sex unless it leads to something significant.  I don't think D&D would end GoT with her dying in childbirth.  There aren't many other reasons for them to have sex other than "OMG, I can't believe I banged my aunt!", which seems like a cheap reason.  So the only other significant reason would be that Jon, maybe due to magic, gets Dany pregnant with the heir, ensuring that the Targaryen line will outlast her.  Boat sex makes Jon's ultimate fate more uncertain than Dany's.

[RedheadZombie]

On July 13, 2017 at 11:08 AM, Katsullivan said:

Only Jon's claim to the title is because he's Ned Stark's son. 

 

The House of Stark is entitled to the KitN as long as the title exists. They were the Kings before Tormund Bent the Knee. It's not a 'elected' title. Greatjon didn't elect Robb - he proposed Northern Independence. Greatjon's more or less exact words were: 'it was the Dragons we married, and the Dragons are dead. Why should anyone rule over the North?' The Stark family is tied to the title intrinsically. 

Cersei has the right as next of kin to the last living King. 

This is a minor point, but when Lady Mormont is rallying the men to Jon's side, she said, "I don't care if he's a bastard.  Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins".  I'm not so sure she, or they, would have felt much differently had they known he was Ned's nephew.  They revere Ned.  Jon is Ned's nephew, he was raised by Ned, he knows the way of the North.  He's experienced in battle, he's still the guy who avenged the Red Wedding, killed Ramsay,  and reclaimed Winterfell.   

Regarding Cersei, isn't her claim by force?  She was only royal through marriage, versus by birth.  She claimed the throne by virtue of killing most of the nobles, and no one left in KL had a decent claim or the courage to challenge her.  Plus even Robert needed his connection to the Targaryens to strengthen his claim, or so I've read.

On July 13, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Edith said:

And the guy who saw episode 1 already too! 

Now a "giant mountain shaped as an arrow head" that's new! 

What do you guys think it is? 

Is it too obvious that it's a battle with his brother?

On July 13, 2017 at 0:26 PM, GrailKing said:

They cut her Vale arc from the books, in the books she IS running a house, she has the affection of Robyn ,NOT LF.

While she may not have started as a pilot after book 1 and season 1 that changed albeit in small steps, I think this season they will fold her Vale arc into the WF one on screen.

Her Name and Bloodline saved the KITN and help take back Winterfell.

If this were a true feudal society, Cat would have already tought Sansa to run a large household.  As the eldest daughter of the warden, she would have been prepared from birth for a strong political alliance/marriage. 

[seacliffsal]

Oh my gosh-I just got it!  The reveal that Jon is not Ned's son and that Ned was protecting him from Robert will now clarify why Ned was so against Robert killing Dany in the first season and his response of 'we don't kill children.'  I can't believe that I didn't put it together before now.  Sometimes I am so slow... but at least that plotline will come around full circle this season.

[Raachel2008]

5 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

4) The spoilers that indicate Varys might end up supporting an Aegon in the show anyway after Dany messes up and surprise surprise did you know that Jon's real name is Aegon?

Whats spoilers and isn't his name Jonerys?

Edited July 16, 2017 by Raachel2008

[BitterApple]

It's funny because I've gotten shredded on other forums for saying a Jon/Dany endgame would be too "cute" for a show that regularly rips its' viewers hearts out with tragic deaths. I think one will make it to the end, but not both. 

I agree that Arya probably wouldn't care one way or another about Edmure. At Riverrun, the Blackfish said he hadn't seen Sansa since she was a child, so it doesn't appear the Stark children were all that close with their Tully relatives. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I read "boat sex" completely differently.  To me, it says Dany will be the End Game Queen, as there is no reason for her and Jon to have sex unless it leads to something significant.  I don't think D&D would end GoT with her dying in childbirth.  There aren't many other reasons for them to have sex other than "OMG, I can't believe I banged my aunt!", which seems like a cheap reason.  So the only other significant reason would be that Jon, maybe due to magic, gets Dany pregnant with the heir, ensuring that the Targaryen line will outlast her.  Boat sex makes Jon's ultimate fate more uncertain than Dany's.

 

HBO has been running a promo about Jon that says something about how the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.  It seems like it fits and even more so if Dany is caring his child.  On the other hand it would be odd for them to be promoting the actual ending a couple seasons before it happens.

[Raachel2008]

7 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

 

HBO has been running a promo about Jon that says something about how the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.  It seems like it fits and even more so if Dany is caring his child.  On the other hand it would be odd for them to be promoting the actual ending a couple seasons before it happens.

Pure bait, that line if from Ned in the books, he is talking to Arya and Sansa after they had a fight. HBO is once again trolling fans implying Jon is going to die this season. 

[theschnauzers]

Jon's already died once being a sort of lone wolf, but since he was revived, he's really hasn't been a lone wolf, but the lead wolf.

[anamika]

20 minutes more! I started reading the books in 2000, so getting to see Dany landing in Westeros after 17 years is getting me all kinds of hyped!

It's been fun debating and discussing with you guys for nearly a year! See you all on the other side!

[SeanC]

Overall, I thought the final product actually did massage the concerns I had about the spoilers, which is often not the case with this show (D&D's writing is generally not big on rescuing dubious ideas with the finer details).  For instance, the Frey massacre makes more sense here in relation to the women, etc., since there was only one rather than a bunch, which is what the Lads account sounded like.  The Northern politicking plot was better than I was fearing it was, too, even if I still have little sense of what the writers think Sansa's skillset is supposed to be.

Promo for next week:

[Advance35]

That scene with Jon and Sansa on the rampart of Winterfell and Jon saying Sansa sounds like she admires Cersei and Sansa remarking about how she learned a lot from her has me rethinking my dismiss of Sansa being the one to bring down Cersei.   That whole aspect of the conversation took me by surprise and now I feel like that option is back on the table.   I assumed Sansa would stay in Winterfell for the rest of the show but now I feel like she will wind up in Kings Landing again somehow.  I could see her evacuating if the Wall falls and having to head south.  Sansa's convo and Cersei still referring to Sansa as that "murdering whore" make me think that there is still unfinished business between these two characters and that it WILL be addressed.  Whether it's Cersei managing to murder Sansa or Sansa helping to bring about her downfall is the question.

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I could see her evacuating if the Wall falls and having to head south. 

The North is really beyond evacuating if the Wall falls.  I've speculated before that potentially Sansa will go south with some characters specifically to deal with Cersei, after Jaime arrives and fills them in that Cersei is planning to betray them.

What this story would look like, I have no idea, based on how this show depicts game-playing.  I'd half expect that it would involve Sansa walking right into the throne room to start trading verbal jabs, because the writers tend to view the plot of the show mainly in terms of how to facilitate scenes like that.

[SimoneS]

I think that everyone in the north will have to move south after the wall falls. I expect that  Sansa, Arya, Bran, etc. will meet up with Jon as he and Daenerys equip their forces.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

The North is really beyond evacuating if the Wall falls.  I've speculated before that potentially Sansa will go south with some characters specifically to deal with Cersei, after Jaime arrives and fills them in that Cersei is planning to betray them.

What this story would look like, I have no idea, based on how this show depicts game-playing.  I'd half expect that it would involve Sansa walking right into the throne room to start trading verbal jabs, because the writers tend to view the plot of the show mainly in terms of how to facilitate scenes like that.

I have a hard time believing that anybody but Tyrion and Brienne would even care to hear what Jamie has to say. Jamie shows up at  Winterfell and Jamie will die. 

I believe that they're setting up Arya to be the Stark family avenger, so Arya will likely go there on a killing mission even if she'd be better served in the fight against the white walkers. 

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I have a hard time believing that anybody but Tyrion and Brienne would even care to hear what Jamie has to say. Jamie shows up at  Winterfell and Jamie will die. 

I believe that they're setting up Arya to be the Stark family avenger, so Arya will likely go there on a killing mission even if she'd be better served in the fight against the white walkers. 

Why would anyone disbelieve Jaime showing up to tell them that Cersei is planning to betray them?  Beyond which, the point of Jon's plot this season ends up being reaching an alliance with the Lannisters, so he certainly wouldn't kill Jaime.

The problem with Arya going to kill Cersei is that she'd be too effective at it for there to be any story.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Why would anyone disbelieve Jaime showing up to tell them that Cersei is planning to betray them?  Beyond which, the point of Jon's plot this season ends up being reaching an alliance with the Lannisters, so he certainly wouldn't kill Jaime.

The problem with Arya going to kill Cersei is that she'd be too effective at it for there to be any story.

They'll believe him if he can tell them. I just don't see them listening to anything he has to say.  Arya would slit his throat on the spot.

I agree to a point. However, I don't imagine Cersei not being killed by Arya. Otherwise, why bother with the list?  I believe Cersei's the last person left on it.

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They'll believe him if he can tell them. I just don't see them listening to anything he has to say.  Arya would slit his throat on the spot.

Arya isn't a psychopath.  The Starks make an alliance with the Lannisters.  Lannisters showing up at Winterfell would not be some grave offense.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Arya isn't a psychopath.  The Starks make an alliance with the Lannisters.  Lannisters showing up at Winterfell would not be some grave offense.

Correction: Snow made an alliance with the lannisters, Sansa didn't make shit and Sansa's the boss at Winterfell for the moment.  As for Arya not being a psychopath, she just killed off the entire frey adult male line.  You don't think she wants to do the same to the Lannisters?

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Correction: Snow made an alliance with the lannisters, Sansa didn't make shit and Sansa's the boss at Winterfell for the moment.  As for Arya not being a psychopath, she just killed off the entire frey adult male line.  You don't think she wants to do the same to the Lannisters?

No, the Starks made an alliance.  Jon is king, and he'd be back there well before Jaime can arrive.

She has never said anything about Jaime.  I doubt she has a positive view of him, but again, she's not a psychopath.  Otherwise she'd just kill Littlefinger immediately in Season 7, instead of what she actually does.

[Oscirus]

11 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, the Starks made an alliance.  Jon is king, and he'd be back there well before Jaime can arrive.

She has never said anything about Jaime.  I doubt she has a positive view of him, but again, she's not a psychopath.  Otherwise she'd just kill Littlefinger immediately in Season 7, instead of what she actually does.

He'd also be headed right to the wall asap, so his word means nothing.  And up until the point when she finds out that Littlefinger was responsible for her father's death, Arya has no reason to kill Little finger. 

Last season, Arya was staring a hole through Jamie's head. You don't think she wants him dead?

[whateverdgaf]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

He'd also be headed right to the wall asap, so his word means nothing.  And up until the point when she finds out that Littlefinger was responsible for her father's death, Arya has no reason to kill Little finger. 

Last season, Arya was staring a hole through Jamie's head. You don't think she wants him dead?

She might want him dead, but Arya was able to control herself when she saw him then, she should be able to do so again. Especially if the Starks and Lannisters have formed an alliance.

[FemmyV]

On 7/15/2017 at 11:05 PM, SeanC said:

The Lannister army doesn't report to him.  He's an outcast, as far as House Lannister is concerned.  The Kingsguard is seven people, and the City Watch (if that's what you're referring to) isn't enough to do anything beyond police King's Landing.

As long as he can pay them the gold they want, they won't give a shit.

[SeanC]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Last season, Arya was staring a hole through Jamie's head. You don't think she wants him dead?

She didn't kill him, did she?  So the thesis that Arya is an uncontrollable psychopath is unsupported.

6 hours ago, FemmyV said:

As long as he can pay them the gold they want, they won't give a shit.

What gold does Tyrion have?

[Raachel2008]

I'm more than ready for this extremly poorly-written Sansa x Jon to end. That's all.

Also, spoilers were 110% correct.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Raachel2008

[rmontro]

Watched the Dragonstone episode.

I'm thinking that the Hound died after his fall (and Arya left him), and came back to life.  That's why he's so interested in the other guy who keeps getting brought back to life (sorry, can't remember his name), and keeps asking him so many questions about it.  (Apologies if this has been brought up before, I can't read all 66 of these pages).

With the other resurrections though, there was always a priest of the Lord of Light who performed the ritual to bring someone back.  This would be the first "spontaneous" resurrection.  So either my theory is garbage, or there is some other mechanism at play here.

[Normades]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I'm thinking that the Hound died after his fall (and Arya left him), and came back to life.  That's why he's so interested in the other guy who keeps getting brought back to life (sorry, can't remember his name), and keeps asking him so many questions about it.  (Apologies if this has been brought up before, I can't read all 66 of these pages).

I've never heard that theory, but it's interesting.  I'd never thought of that possibility.  Interesting to have the Hound with the guys who basically worship fire when he has such an aversion to it after his childhood "accident."  

Did anyone notice on next weeks previews that they had someone with dark curly hair kissing a red head?  I had to replay several times to discern what was going on.  I think they're playing with us, and poking those who have considered a Jon/Sansa relationship.  Pretty sneaky thing to do.  

[rmontro]

11 minutes ago, Normades said:

I've never heard that theory, but it's interesting.  I'd never thought of that possibility.

The Hound said to the guy "There's nothing special about you, why were you brought back to life?".   I was thinking maybe he's projecting a bit on here.  The Hound doesn't think that he himself is deserving of a second life, so he's questioning why he might be brought back?  I don't know, maybe I'm totally off base.

[ElizaD]

Now I'm very interested in seeing how Dany's burning of the Tarlys is handled. Making the Northern heirs children seemed like a clear sign that we're meant to see Jon as being more right than Sansa about how the situation should be handled, yet she didn't get an edit that would have suggested we should see her as being totally wrong either. The Tarly situation could be easier to justify, in a way, because it involves grown men being executed after a battle. Yet at the same time, it could be more questionable if Dany's decision is presented as coming from a place of calculated revenge and clearly horrifying Tyrion and Varys, two characters who have been established as both smart and sympathetic.

On the whole, this does seem like something that could emphasize the Jon = ruler/Dany = conqueror narrative that some people have pointed out. Have we actually seen her succeed at ruling in some way, rather than simply destroying her enemies after her attempts at ruling fail to create the kind of society she wants? While Dany might live and have Jon's child, this narrative, along with the leaked revelation of his legitimacy, does make me think that if one of the two dies it's more likely to be her and not him despite all the questions about what the resurrection might have done to his body.

[anamika]

46 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Now I'm very interested in seeing how Dany's burning of the Tarlys is handled. Making the Northern heirs children seemed like a clear sign that we're meant to see Jon as being more right than Sansa about how the situation should be handled, yet she didn't get an edit that would have suggested we should see her as being totally wrong either. The Tarly situation could be easier to justify, in a way, because it involves grown men being executed after a battle. Yet at the same time, it could be more questionable if Dany's decision is presented as coming from a place of calculated revenge and clearly horrifying Tyrion and Varys, two characters who have been established as both smart and sympathetic.

The Tarlys refuse to bend the knee unlike Ned Umber and Alys Karstark. Clear difference.

The punishment for treason is death and the Tarlys themselves commit treason. Unlike Ned Umber and Alys Karstark. Again, clear difference.

Edited July 17, 2017 by anamika

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm thinking that the Hound died after his fall (and Arya left him), and came back to life.  That's why he's so interested in the other guy who keeps getting brought back to life (sorry, can't remember his name), and keeps asking him so many questions about it.

Oh, this is a great great theory, and could really work into the story being told. It would also explain how the Hound saw something in the fire, which I don't think anyone can.