S07.E04: Unforgiven

[MollyBrown]

Kody and Robyn have made me hate the phrase baby sister.   Ugh.  Poor Sol has to hear it all the time. 

[Galloway Cave]

57 minutes ago, MarysWetBar said:

I'm older, so maybe that is why I am so confused by some of the remarks about how Mariah has every right to TEAR into her mother.

Meri has used Mariah as her confidant, sounding board, cuddler, sleep-partner, etc. for her entire marriage to Kody. Mariah hasn't really been a child to Meri but a partner. And Mariah has felt that way too, for better or worse. She was raised without the normal boundaries. She is used to dealing with her mother on an equal level. Is it her RIGHT to tear into Meri? Considering Meri has always involved her in her personal life, maybe so for them.

But now that she is at college, Mariah is also discovering her upbringing, both by her mother and in their religion, was a pile of crap. Enter the rage, anger, resentment and confusion on how to deal with her emotions towards her mother. So we are seeing her vent to the camera but try to contain herself towards her mother (eyebrow comment aside). 

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, MarysWetBar said:

I'm older, so maybe that is why I am so confused by some of the remarks about how Mariah has every right to TEAR into her mother.

My mom could have had an affair, murdered the milkman, and ran over the priest, and it would have never occurred to me that I could put her on blast or give her my two cents about how she was living her life.

A certain respect for parents seems to be missing these days...could just be me, though.

Now, get off my lawn! haha

I saw no "tearing," just honestly expressed anger along with repeated expressions of love. Mariah isn't a child and she and Meri have always had an open relationship (probably inappropriately so). In my opinion, an adult must give respect to get it. Meri deeply disrespected her sister wives throughout their lives and showed no respect to her daughter in this. In fact, she is a generally highly disrespectful person. She demanded that she be forgiven (which also tells you about their dynamic) immediately on television for something that she knew deeply hurt and humiliated her daughter, who has just realized she was raised in a cult. Meri doesn't deserve some magical unearned respect, and Mariah doesn't owe her a supernatural level of perfect behavior, because Meri gave birth to her or because she is older. You reap what you sow. Meri has sown quite a bit of BS. If Meri wants to talk about this with Mariah, she owes her honesty, and she is lying. Mariah knows it. So if Mariah were to say she forgave her, she'd be participating in the lie as well. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Lm2162

[Madding crowd]

1 hour ago, trimthatfat said:

Exactly! Plus, I'm sure Mariah has seen how the lifestyle has impacted Christine. How Janelle has felt like she's been bullied by Meri for years. How the other college-aged kids are in public school because their mothers can't afford a private education. None of that was enough for her to think 'wow, this is a really fucked up situation that isn't fair to the adult women or the kids'. But Meri does something stupid that has serious ramifications, and now Mariah has an epiphany? Oh, okay. Notice how all of the other kids have said for years that they wanted monogamous relationships? Mariah held onto wanting a polygamous relationship because she thought it worked out well for her mother. I really hope that with time and age, she can evaluate this situation for what it truly is because it truly is sad that this family is as messed up as it is.

What s wrong wth public college or universities? Many parents can't afford even a community college for their kids. I think the fact that they get to go to college at all is proof they are fortunate. And there are many excellent state schools. 

[VedaPierce]

5 hours ago, MamaMax said:

Mariah showed signs of self-awareness that I hitherto though impossible from a Brown. I thought she sounded like she had had some therapy already, and I was so so glad to hear her say that it wasn't her mistake nor her responsibility to fix it.

I think it's 100% appropriate for a child to have concerns about their parent having an inappropriate relationship, if they know about it.  I think Mariah was within her rights to tell Meri -- This is bad news, you should not be involved with another man to this degree. And if it was all innocent, why didn't she offer to bring him around her family? If they were "just friends" why the secrecy?  In my experience, you only hide things that you know on some level you shouldn't be doing. 

I think Meri has a personality disorder. BPD or Narcissism, or a combo. Her lack of personal responsibility is astonishing.  She really does seem to think she is being persecuted because she said "sorry" and everyone didn't IMMEDIATELY forgive her. SHe seems to think that because she apologized (half-assed and half-heartedly) that there would be no repercussions.

Classic to me was her saying, in practically the same breath: "I damaged/broke trust," and "It's like they don't TRUST me!" and cue the tears.

I find it all manipulative and disingenuous.

Love love love this post! VERY well put and I agree 100%! No accountability. No insight into herself, no growth. She learned nothing from this.

[Granny58]

6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I know she isn't really isolated, it's just a mind-set the plyg's grow up with. I' m sure she is needed for  the show, but I also believe Kody would ask the kids not to see her if she left. I also think her family members would shun her too. She has a couple of friends, but who knows if they would support her if she left he 'church'. 

I think you're correct about traditional plygs, but not this group.  I don't even think the kids would shun her if she left.  Considering that they don't want any part of polygamy, they would understand.  But as others have said, and I failed to realize, they are probably more angry that she won't just fess  up.  

[riverblue22]

5 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

It's a classic fit and flare with all over lace bodice and lace appliques on the flare part, plus a crystal or crystal-look belt.  IMO, it would be hard to get more formal than that unless she paired it with long gloves and a tiara....

I'm not up on wedding wear, but whatever choices Madison made were probably ideas that she saw all over Pinterest.  That seems to be the standard for so many these days--if it is on Pinterest then it is cool.

[VedaPierce]

2 hours ago, laurakaye said:

My DVR cut out before the previews for next week.  Will Robyn (modestly, LOL) give birth on camera and make noises that I don't want to hear, while Kody nuzzles her and makes noises that I don't want to hear?  'Cause I may have to take a pass on that one.

Meeee tooooo!!! Lol lol lol! Yuck!! Don't forget him stroking her inner thigh while her knees were raised like in the last one!  Ptewy! 

[Celia Rubenstein]

About the sloppy appearances of many of the girls ...  I am seeing that a lot among my 20 year-old daughter and her friends. I would never have gone out looking as raggedy as these girls do without giving it a thought.  I guess it's a good thing - apparently they have taken to heart all our parental admonishments that it's whats inside that counts, your looks don't matter, lol.  But it takes some getting used to ... 

While I am on the topic of appearances, I am going to have to come down on the side of not being wild about Maddie's wedding dress.  More than just seeming to be too formal compared with what the guys are supposed to wear, I just didn't think it was all that flattering.  She seemed to love it, though, which is what counts I guess.  I just hope after being fitted and altered it looks better on her.  A little hair makeup can't hurt, either.  

But please have all the groomsmen wear vests, too, like in the pic above. The idea of guys in random khakis and oxford shirts just sounds so meh.  I am all for casual weddings, but it would be worth the effort to dress it up just a little, especially given Maddie's fancy gown.  I am afraid her wedding party is going to look like a bunch of school teachers on a break.

Did they mention anything about how her bridesmaids will be dressed?  I didn't hear anything.  Maybe they want something fresh to reveal when they air the wedding. 

Kody wanting to go wedding dress shopping with Maddie was just beyond ridiculous. I am sure there are situations out there where a dad takes his daughter dress shopping for whatever reason, but it is hardly the norm and why would any daughter with FOUR mothers, a score of sisters and cousins and friends etc want her father to help her pick out her gown? Kody just has to make himself the center of everything, much like his stupid light display that is all about how awesome HE is with HIS four houses and HIS four wives and HIS four families and HE is at the center of it all.  

He's such a prima donna douchebag! 

[VedaPierce]

1 hour ago, Lm2162 said:

I saw no "tearing," just honestly expressed anger along with repeated expressions of love. Mariah isn't a child and she and Meri have always had an open relationship (probably inappropriately so). In my opinion, an adult must give respect to get it. Meri deeply disrespected her sister wives throughout their lives and showed no respect to her daughter in this. In fact, she is a generally highly disrespectful person. She demanded that she be forgiven (which also tells you about their dynamic) immediately on television for something that she knew deeply hurt and humiliated her daughter, who has just realized she was raised in a cult. Meri doesn't deserve some magical unearned respect, and Mariah doesn't owe her a supernatural level of perfect behavior, because Meri gave birth to her or because she is older. You reap what you sow. Meri has sown quite a bit of BS. If Meri wants to talk about this with Mariah, she owes her honesty, and she is lying. Mariah knows it. So if Mariah were to say she forgave her, she'd be participating in the lie as well. 

And just to add, at the end, Mariah with her little "I love you?" To Meri...because she could sense that Meri was actually mad at her for not rushing to forgive her on that walk, on camera! What the hell, Meri? I'm seeing more and more that Meri is quite demanding and hates the word no. She wants what she wants when she wants it...or she'll storm out and slam the door!

[VedaPierce]

28 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

About the sloppy appearances of many of the girls ...  I am seeing that a lot among my 20 year-old daughter and her friends. I would never have gone out looking as raggedy as these girls do without giving it a thought.  I guess it's a good thing - apparently they have taken to heart all our parental admonishments that it's whats inside that counts, your looks don't matter, lol.  But it takes some getting used to ... 

While I am on the topic of appearances, I am going to have to come down on the side of not being wild about Maddie's wedding dress.  More than just seeming to be too formal compared with what the guys are supposed to wear, I just didn't think it was all that flattering.  She seemed to love it, though, which is what counts I guess.  I just hope after being fitted and altered it looks better on her.  A little hair makeup can't hurt, either.  

But please have all the groomsmen wear vests, too, like in the pic above. The idea of guys in random khakis and oxford shirts just sounds so meh.  I am all for casual weddings, but it would be worth the effort to dress it up just a little, especially given Maddie's fancy gown.  I am afraid her wedding party is going to look like a bunch of school teachers on a break.

Did they mention anything about how her bridesmaids will be dressed?  I didn't hear anything.  Maybe they want something fresh to reveal when they air the wedding. 

Kody wanting to go wedding dress shopping with Maddie was just beyond ridiculous. I am sure there are situations out there where a dad takes his daughter dress shopping for whatever reason, but it is hardly the norm and why would any daughter with FOUR mothers, a score of sisters and cousins and friends etc want her father to help her pick out her gown? Kody just has to make himself the center of everything, much like his stupid light display that is all about how awesome HE is with HIS four houses and HIS four wives and HIS four families and HE is at the center of it all.  

He's such a prima donna douchebag! 

Kody wanted to go for camera time. So he can jump up and do that dumbass dance of his and tell everyone that these are his 4 wives. 

I also agree about the dress, does nothing for her. The strapless trend isn't so awesome for everybody. I could never wear strapless because I'm not as toned as I would like to be in my arms and shoulders, and it would call attention to my worst asset....nothing wrong with some sleeves, looked gorgeous on Kate.

[MonicaM]

23 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Kody wanting to go wedding dress shopping with Maddie was just beyond ridiculous. I am sure there are situations out there where a dad takes his daughter dress shopping for whatever reason, but it is hardly the norm and why would any daughter with FOUR mothers, a score of sisters and cousins and friends etc want her father to help her pick out her gown? Kody just has to make himself the center of everything, much like his stupid light display that is all about how awesome HE is with HIS four houses and HIS four wives and HIS four families and HE is at the center of it all.  

He's such a prima donna douchebag! 

It reminded me of how the "wives" looked at wedding gowns for Robyn as a group, and then Kody went shopping with Robyn and he choose the dress.  He wants control of everything.  I wanted to kick his rear when he whined that he was expected to hand over his credit card, but wasn't included in the shopping trip.  I've been involved in tons of weddings over the years and not one has involved the father helping to shop for the dress.  

Don't even get me started on his stupid light display!!!

[trimthatfat]

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

What s wrong wth public college or universities? Many parents can't afford even a community college for their kids. I think the fact that they get to go to college at all is proof they are fortunate. And there are many excellent state schools. 

I have 2 degrees from state schools so please do not make that kind of leap. I wasn't disparaging them at all and I'm offended you'd suggest that. I am well aware of the fact that college is a blessing - state or private. I don't like the implication that I'm stating otherwise. My point was that sacrifices were made for Mariah to go to her dream college and I'm sure the same would not be made for other children. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by trimthatfat

[toodles]

On 5/30/2016 at 1:52 PM, AZChristian said:

Las Vegas is a lot like Phoenix.  Basements are rare.  It's cheaper and faster to build on a concrete slab.  In colder climes, builders already have to dig below the frost line for a foundation, so it's not a big deal to dig a little deeper and make a basement.  There's no frost line in desert areas.

I live in Vegas and basements are really expensive.  The ground is so hard you need a special contractors to do the digging.  It's really hot today and a nice,cool basement sounds nice

Sorry.  I digress.

[Madding crowd]

32 minutes ago, trimthatfat said:

I have 2 degrees from state schools so please do not make that kind of leap. I wasn't disparaging them at all and I'm offended you'd suggest that. I am well aware of the fact that college is a blessing - state or private. I don't like the implication that I'm stating otherwise. My point was that sacrifices were made for Mariah to go to her dream college and I'm sure the same would not be made for other children. 

We have no way of knowing that the their children wanted to go to the inferior State schools. As far as sacrifice, they make money from appearing on TV and using it for school is a good a way as any to spend it. And everyone here keeps insisting Meri has no connection to the other kids, so why not spend it on her only child. I see no issues on education, it seems to me the Brown kids are all doing exactly what they want to do. 

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, trimthatfat said:

I have 2 degrees from state schools so please do not make that kind of leap. I wasn't disparaging them at all and I'm offended you'd suggest that. I am well aware of the fact that college is a blessing - state or private. I don't like the implication that I'm stating otherwise. My point was that sacrifices were made for Mariah to go to her dream college and I'm sure the same would not be made for other children. 

I'm not sure. It does seem like the only reason she was allowed that wasn't exactly because she was Meri's child, but because she was the *only* one at the time expressing any desire to continue their cult/religion, and she explicitly stated she wanted to go back there to do that and find a polygamist community/practice/maybe even husband. It wasn't like she wanted to go to Harvard (though I'm not saying that's a 'luxury;' I do deeply hope if one of their children got into an art school or an Ivy or MIT, they'd make sacrifices to send them there if they had real talent and aptitude).It was a tiny Utah school near a known AUB community. The way the other parents were convinced was entirely due to religion; how can we deny her this, they wondered,if this is truly what we believe? They were still knee-deep in the AUB doctrine, and Mariah had spent her whole life in a polygamist school with other plyg families until Vegas, so she was more heavily indoctrinated. Meri also seemed quite seriously religious, even more than the others except Robyn, at the start of the show.

They don't act like it now, but these people raised their kids in a straight-up incestuous cult. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Lm2162

[toodles]

7 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

 

I'm not sure why Mariah should have to understand in depth the evils of polygamy when her own mother is back in the fold and singing the praises of polygamy and their religion. So she's supposed to say how wrong her mom is and how little she knows about her own needs...to her face? All she said was that she's angry and confused and needs time to process. She's had years of brainwashing and is just now realizing it. It will take time. 

More to the point, Meri, too, benefited financially from polygamy over and over and over, and she was an adult. What Mariah got was runoff. Meri got a bigger budget, a nicer mansion, the feeling of being "first wife" and lording it over the others, etc. She got to abuse Janelle and get away with it. She got to use Janelle's and Kody's money and Christine's cooking skills and only work part time while her sister wives raised 12 kids on a tiny budget compared to hers. It's only when it stopped serving her that she no longer "loved" polygamy. And did she respond by speaking out against it or seeking therapy? Or leaving the marriage? Nope, she had an affair and continues to reap the financial benefits of calling herself a sister wife. The show, the business, and the family budget. Those would go away if she left. So I'd say if Mariah is a brat, Meri is an even bigger one. Mariah wanted to go to that expensive school to be part of the church and religion *they* shoved on her and indoctrinated in her since birth. She wasn't exactly trying to go to a party school. 

Meri worked part time because she went with kody on his various trips.  I don't know if they were for business or what, she was free to go because the other wives held down the fort and paid the bills.  If she had the eight kids she said she wanted, none of the traveling would have been possible.  If I were Janelle and Christine, I would have been 10 kinds of pissed off.  With a family that big, they need every dime they can get their hands.  Why didn't meri get her ass out of bed and see Janelle' s kids off to school?  Why didn't she say no to the traveling and get a full time job?  She could have thrown mariah in with the pack.  She always liked nice things?  Who paid for them?  She has no kids at home and lives alone in that ginourmus house.  She had plenty of time and money to follow her boy band around.  And to buy nice things.  I think karma is a bitch.  She cries about her value to the family.  If she had been more involved years ago, she might not be the situation she in now.  Karma bit her in the ass big-time.  She says she needs to earn the trust and respect back.  She should have started a long time ago.

You don't always get the life you thought you would. That's just the way it goes.  Lose the sense of entitlement, meri.  Suck it up and move on.

[toodles]

3 hours ago, riverblue22 said:

I'm not up on wedding wear, but whatever choices Madison made were probably ideas that she saw all over Pinterest.  That seems to be the standard for so many these days--if it is on Pinterest then it is cool.

Just ask the duggar girls.

[Adeejay]

1 hour ago, auntl said:

I think that Christine and Janelle were just as religious as Meri when they lived in Utah. They just couldn't afford to send their kids to the private, religious school. It comes back to Meri getting more than her fair share. Meri had one child to feed and clothe, they had six. She had money left over for private school, they didn't.

I wish I could give a thousand likes for this post.  That Meri is allotted the same amount of money as Janelle and Christine is beyond ridiculous.  Mariah's old bedroom was the size of a ballroom, while the other kids were three to a room in much smaller rooms.  I can't help but believe that Aspyn, Maddie and Mykelti grew up feeling inferior.  Mariah was all for polygamy when her mother was first wife, but now that she has been demoted and  replaced she has had a revelation and is against it. 

[Madding crowd]

None of the Brown's work except for sitting on a couch during filming. If they were concerned with their children getting in different schools, they could have worked for it like everyone else. Many fundie types don't even send their kids to school, so I think the Brown's are doing better than they could be. Considering Christine homeschooled them part of the time and the they went to religious schools (not regular religion schools either) so it is great that they could even go into college.

I will never agree that having more children means you are entitled to more in life. If you choose to have six children with a man who doesn't work and has many children with other women, you need to work yourself to support those children. It is not Meri's fault that Janelle quit her job and Christine never worked. Show me some proof that Logan was accepted into Harvard but couldn't go because of Mariah. If you believe in the socialist view of distribution, than are you giving some of your money to people who have more children?

Kody has always made it clear that each family is separate, with separate homes and separate lives. I see no reason to hate Meri because she had one child or to hate Mariah for being one child. It doesn't make sense to me to say that Mariah is an awful person because she is an only child, then say she is an awful person because her brothers and sisters should come first. Which is it? If she is an only child, then she and her parents need to do what is best for her. 

[Snarklepuss]

7 hours ago, Galloway Cave said:

Meri has used Mariah as her confidant, sounding board, cuddler, sleep-partner, etc. for her entire marriage to Kody. Mariah hasn't really been a child to Meri but a partner. And Mariah has felt that way too, for better or worse. She was raised without the normal boundaries. She is used to dealing with her mother on an equal level. Is it her RIGHT to tear into Meri? Considering Meri has always involved her in her personal life, maybe so for them.

OMG, I was going to say EXACTLY this!  Too bad I see this as a disturbing trend between parents and children today where parents make friends/surrogate partners out of their kids and then wonder why they're not getting any traditional parental respect.  I've seen this with my SIL and her kids.  Her eldest son has what I feel is an inappropriate level of closeness with his mother and does not have a healthy respect for her or other older people as a result (and he should be past any rebellious stage since he's 30).  I actually tore into him once after he made some snarky comments online about his mother and I have NEVER once put my 2 cents in - I just couldn't bear it anymore.  I think this is why kids grow up to be primadonnas like Mariah and entitled princes with an attitude like my nephew.

[Celia Rubenstein]

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I will never agree that having more children means you are entitled to more in life. If you choose to have six children with a man who doesn't work and has many children with other women, you need to work yourself to support those children. It is not Meri's fault that Janelle quit her job and Christine never worked. Show me some proof that Logan was accepted into Harvard but couldn't go because of Mariah. If you believe in the socialist view of distribution, than are you giving some of your money to people who have more children?

Kody has always made it clear that each family is separate, with separate homes and separate lives. I see no reason to hate Meri because she had one child or to hate Mariah for being one child. It doesn't make sense to me to say that Mariah is an awful person because she is an only child, then say she is an awful person because her brothers and sisters should come first. Which is it? If she is an only child, then she and her parents need to do what is best for her. 

I don't equate the belief that Brown family resources could have been distributed more equally among the children with having a world socialist view that requires I donate money to random people with large broods in order to be valid. We are just talking about the Browns here, not the world at large - a single family, where every individual person is supposed to have the same value as any other person, no more no less.  

I happen to believe that you should provide equally for ALL your children, not set one up to live a better life than the others.  If anyone was being a socialist, it was Kody who appears to have decided the "fair" thing to do was distribute money equally among the wives, rather than among the kids.  His conveniently self-serving priorities were messed up imo.  He put more value on keeping his wives feeling equal with each than on his kids in fact being treated equally in terms of things like food budgets and education.  And that kinda sucks to me.  I'm not saying I expect Meri to live on a pittance because she only had the one child, but after a certain point - after paying for basic necessities to which each family group was equally entitled (an adequate home, utilities, etc) the money should have been distributed taking into account how many children needed food in each home, needed clothes.  I'm not suggesting it would have been easy and there would have been no problems, but I just can't get with 2 people getting as much money to live on as Christine and Janelle each with 7? 8? people to feed and clothe and educate.  It just goes against my idea of basic fairness within a family.  And I do see the Browns as being one family, whether or not it's convenient at the moment for Kody to acknowledge that or not.

I just want to add that I don't think anyone has accused Mariah of being an awful person because she is an only child.  It's how she acts as the result of having been an only child, which lead to her being a bit spoiled and feeling entitled.  It's what happens when one kid has so much more lavished on her than her brothers and sisters get.  

JMHO/YMMV

Edited June 1, 2016 by Celia Rubenstein
so I could insult Kody some more

[Snarklepuss]

5 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

About the sloppy appearances of many of the girls ...  I am seeing that a lot among my 20 year-old daughter and her friends. I would never have gone out looking as raggedy as these girls do without giving it a thought.  I guess it's a good thing - apparently they have taken to heart all our parental admonishments that it's whats inside that counts, your looks don't matter, lol.  But it takes some getting used to ... 

While I am on the topic of appearances, I am going to have to come down on the side of not being wild about Maddie's wedding dress.  More than just seeming to be too formal compared with what the guys are supposed to wear, I just didn't think it was all that flattering.  She seemed to love it, though, which is what counts I guess.  I just hope after being fitted and altered it looks better on her.  A little hair makeup can't hurt, either. 

I hear you about the 20 somethings and the lack of fashion sense.  I agree with you that it's taking a message to heart, but I think it's to the extreme.  I think there's nothing wrong with making the most of your appearance even if what's inside is more important.  Concentrating on one doesn't have to negate or diminish the importance one places on the other.  Rather than make them people that are free of worry about judgment from others who have more time to develop themselves on the inside, it just makes them in my opinion more self absorbed.  Maddie is no exception.  She doesn't have to be a fashion plate, but I know several nuns with more fashion sense than a lot of these kids have.

[VedaPierce]

2 hours ago, toodles said:

Meri worked part time because she went with kody on his various trips.  I don't know if they were for business or what, she was free to go because the other wives held down the fort and paid the bills.  If she had the eight kids she said she wanted, none of the traveling would have been possible.  If I were Janelle and Christine, I would have been 10 kinds of pissed off.  With a family that big, they need every dime they can get their hands.  Why didn't meri get her ass out of bed and see Janelle' s kids off to school?  Why didn't she say no to the traveling and get a full time job?  She could have thrown mariah in with the pack.  She always liked nice things?  Who paid for them?  She has no kids at home and lives alone in that ginourmus house.  She had plenty of time and money to follow her boy band around.  And to buy nice things.  I think karma is a bitch.  She cries about her value to the family.  If she had been more involved years ago, she might not be the situation she in now.  Karma bit her in the ass big-time.  She says she needs to earn the trust and respect back.  She should have started a long time ago.

You don't always get the life you thought you would. That's just the way it goes.  Lose the sense of entitlement, meri.  Suck it up and move on.

Love this and could not agree more! 

[Snarklepuss]

On 5/30/2016 at 9:43 PM, hnygrl said:

I'm going to take a completely controversial stand on this show and say the person I feel the most sorry for is Meri.

Yes, a lot - if not all - of this is of he own making, but damn, it breaks my heart to see one human being that alone in the universe. Meri has no one. She's literally all alone in the world. I can't bring myself to "blame" her for the mess she made. Seriously. Can't. She's so ALONE. No man to love her, no children to love her, no job to take her mind off things. The other wives and children despise her as do the fanbase. She's got no one. She's divorced, but still "married." She's the "first wife" but the least favored wife. I see her as one big gigantic ball of sad.

<snip>

I want her to leave. To find love. Hell to find FRIENDSHIP. A purpose. A LIFE outside of this gaping maw of loneliness that is her very existence.

I just can't find it in me to be gleeful or even "self-righteous" that she's "getting what she deserves" Because in my world?
NOBODY "deserves" that.

I'm with you on this.  We all can heap blame upon Meri but the situation is very complicated and there is no clear villain.  Saying it's her karma or whatever is also not fair as it seems pretty obvious that a large part of the responsibility falls on Kody and not to take that into account is wrong.

I am in a very philosophical, forgiving mood, though, today.  Mr. Snarkle just found out that his hated ex-law partner (who was a know it all and made him feel like her inferior little step and fetch it because she was summa cum laude at xx Ivy League school, etc., etc.) has early onset Alzheimer's.  She is barely 60 years old.  No more horrible fate could a woman whose intelligence was her all in life ever experience.  As much as we hated her and at times wished justice upon her, we could never be happy about such a fate happening to her or even our worst enemy.  I would rather she'd have learned a lesson than suffer a crippling blow.  In Meri's case, I only hope she is learning from her mistakes and uses that knowledge to become a better person.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Snarklepuss
clarity, she was his law partner, not another kind.

[ReadMeLattice]

5 hours ago, auntl said:

I think that Christine and Janelle were just as religious as Meri when they lived in Utah. They just couldn't afford to send their kids to the private, religious school. It comes back to Meri getting more than her fair share. Meri had one child to feed and clothe, they had six. She had money left over for private school, they didn't.

But their children were not and wanted no part of that. 

Mariah went to the polygamist school in high school for free. It was basically a homeschooling collective. The college she went to was a different issue. Mykelti, Aspyn, and Maddie actively wanted out of the religion and wouldn't have been caught dead in school in Utah near an AUB group.

2 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

OMG, I was going to say EXACTLY this!  Too bad I see this as a disturbing trend between parents and children today where parents make friends/surrogate partners out of their kids and then wonder why they're not getting any traditional parental respect.  I've seen this with my SIL and her kids.  Her eldest son has what I feel is an inappropriate level of closeness with his mother and does not have a healthy respect for her or other older people as a result (and he should be past any rebellious stage since he's 30).  I actually tore into him once after he made some snarky comments online about his mother and I have NEVER once put my 2 cents in - I just couldn't bear it anymore.  I think this is why kids grow up to be primadonnas like Mariah and entitled princes with an attitude like my nephew.

Isn't that equally or more his mother's fault? 

[trimthatfat]

10 hours ago, auntl said:

I think that Christine and Janelle were just as religious as Meri when they lived in Utah. They just couldn't afford to send their kids to the private, religious school. It comes back to Meri getting more than her fair share. Meri had one child to feed and clothe, they had six. She had money left over for private school, they didn't.

Thank you. That was my point. This lifestyle has been very advantageous to Meri and Mariah in a way it has not been to the other wives and kids. Private school was just one example.

I think it's easy to say now that the kids probably didn't want to attend private school or that the moms didn't care that they had the same amount of money as Meri but five times as many kids, but I'd love to hear their thoughts on that.

Edited June 1, 2016 by trimthatfat

[Snarklepuss]

5 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Isn't that equally or more his mother's fault? 

Yes, that was my point (which was in there when I said "when parents MAKE friends out of their kids") - that Meri and my SIL are reaping what they sowed by making their children friends and not encouraging a relationship of parental respect.  No matter whose fault it was, my nephew had it coming to him when I gave him my 2 cents, trust me.....I never saw his mother so upset with him.  She thanked me later.  But yeah, I often think "it's her own fault" that he shows her so little respect.  Fortunately I live far away from them and I don't get involved in their family issues anyway - That time was a very rare exception.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Snarklepuss]

16 hours ago, kassa said:

Vis a vis khakis, I've been to a few Yankee (as in New England Prep School Old Money, not NY baseball team) weddings where khakis and navy blazers were worn for informal Maine/Nantucket/Martha's Vineyard type weddings. 

Needless to say, it's all in the execution.  

I am old but I do remember going to a wedding like this in Massachusetts once upon a time, although Caleb is not from that ilk and I'm expecting a not so smart looking execution.  I'm hoping he surprises us.  Those photos they look at online are often models posing, or weddings done by a stylist.  Lumbersexual looking Montana guys might not have the finesse to pull off the look.  It's obvious they're doing this wedding on their own.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Armchair Critic]

19 hours ago, laurakaye said:

She's trying to best figure out how to paint herself as a victim in her own scheme to leave her family for a "man" she met online.  I am waiting for her to admit that she never wanted polygamy, she only wanted Kody, who wanted polygamy.  I am waiting for her to scream this from the top steps of the cuddle-sac.  But she never will.  She will talk around it over and over and over again, and paint herself as the victim of JO when she's been the victim of Kody Brown for far longer.

YES to all of this. And Kody knows darn well that he is the issue but sat there with a blank look on his face acting "shocked" that Meri might not be totally fulfilled being in a relationship with him.

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, trimthatfat said:

Thank you. That was my point. This lifestyle has been very advantageous to Meri and Mariah in a way it has not been to the other wives and kids. Private school was just one example.

I think it's easy to say now that the kids probably didn't want to attend private school or that the moms didn't care that they had the same amount of money as Meri but five times as many kids, but I'd love to hear their thoughts on that.

It's hard to say. Perhaps. None of them asked, and the one thing that convinced the parents that Mariah could go was that Mariah was the only one carrying on their polygamist legacy, and the only one who remained in their church. The other kids had left.

Also, they use one collective budget for all the kids' colleges. It wasn't that Meri had more on her own, it was that they asked for more than they would for the other kids and the reasoning was Mariah's desire to attend the school for religious reasons. Also, Kody refused to take out loans himself or allow Mariah to work or take out loans/take on debt (which she offered to do) at the time, which is a bit silly as he's not exactly financially responsible. He didn't want her to "have debt" when she graduated or take money from the government, but we all know they've declared bankruptcy multiple times and cheated the welfare system. So I think there was more going on than just Meri being spoiled and demanding, though that was certainly part of it. One thing I will say is that Mariah does work while going to school, while Aspyn and Logan don't and Mykelti didn't when she attended. Aspyn is in a sorority, Logan spends most of his time with his girlfriend, etc. There's nothing wrong with that (they shouldn't have to), but it's part of their choice to attend a cheaper school, and Mariah's job is part of hers. So in that way, it's fair. 

I don't think Mariah needed to go to the school, as she ended up leaving the church. But maybe she needed to be around it more to figure that out. More importantly, I'd hope that the Browns would allow their children to take out loans or devote more college money to a child with a particular need, like a school for a specific area of interest (like a conservatory or tech school). I hope they wouldn't deny them that chance.

Meri having a larger personal, household budget was a different issue. They don't use those budgets for college tuition. So Janelle isn't paying more than one college tuition right now, for example. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Lm2162

[3girlsforus]

4 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Meri having a larger personal, household budget was a different issue. They don't use those budgets for college tuition. So Janelle isn't paying more than one college tuition right now, for example. 

Do any of them have budgets for college tuition? I don't get the impression that somewhere there is a bank account with college tuition for 18 kids.

[ReadMeLattice]

11 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

Do any of them have budgets for college tuition? I don't get the impression that somewhere there is a bank account with college tuition for 18 kids.

They have one collective budget/account for tuition. Their personal budgets aren't involved and no parent pays more than another for college. Where that comes from, I am skeptical/confused, except that they do make a ton from the show, so maybe they've put some in there? The Browns are the least financially responsible people I've ever seen. 

[AZChristian]

I've always been under the impression that the money was split evenly among the wives and Kody, regardless of the number of children in each household.  So Meri has always HAD more disposable income than the others.  (And still expected more for housing upgrades.)  If there was one college fund for all of them, there should have been an equal amount available to each child.  Meri and Mariah have never understood the concept of sharing fairly.

I finished watching the episode yesterday.  I can fully understand why Mariah is so upset.  She WARNED Meri at the beginning that this relationship with her "friend" was NOT a good idea.  Not only did Meri refuse to see the red flags, she's still not accepting responsibility for her actions.  You can't avoid future train wrecks if you don't switch to a different track.  And Mariah is sharp - she's probably seen the banana picture and heard the voice mails.  How embarrassing for her that the whole WORLD knows her mother screwed up, but Mama is still trying to convince the world (including herself) that she's a victim.  I have no doubt that Meri had her bags packed and was ready to go if "Sam" had been real.

Oh, and for the record, I thought Meri's eyebrows looked wonky for part of the episode, too.  But it was still weird for Mariah to pop up with that comment out of a clear blue sky.

[islandgal140]

15 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

While I am on the topic of appearances, I am going to have to come down on the side of not being wild about Maddie's wedding dress.  More than just seeming to be too formal compared with what the guys are supposed to wear, I just didn't think it was all that flattering.  She seemed to love it, though, which is what counts I guess.  I just hope after being fitted and altered it looks better on her.  A little hair makeup can't hurt, either.  

But please have all the groomsmen wear vests, too, like in the pic above. The idea of guys in random khakis and oxford shirts just sounds so meh.  I am all for casual weddings, but it would be worth the effort to dress it up just a little, especially given Maddie's fancy gown.  I am afraid her wedding party is going to look like a bunch of school teachers on a break.

 

I didn't want to say anything but yeah, I agree with this. She has a decent figure and that dress made her look boxy. Hopefully, once it is altered and fitted that will not be the case. I like the idea of a bohemian wedding for Maddie and I think she would have looked wonderful in that style of dress. If she was combing pinterest for bohemian wedding ideas/dresses, it would surprise me if that style of dress showed up in the search. It is too structured and formal to be considered bohemian. She would have looked great in something a bit more flowy and a-line, instead of the fit and flare, but she did seem very happy and that matters most. 

I think the bridal appointment and everyone's reaction or lack thereof was because this wasn't their first visit there and this wasn't the 1st time they have seen her try on gowns. Maddie & co., at least once before and had narrowed her choices down. 

[3girlsforus]

A lot of the perceived financial inequity would be nullified if they were actually a family. Then there would be one account and accountability between the wives and Kody for how the money was spent. But they are 4 different families, 4 different households. Kody decided to give each household the same amount of money so of course Meri will have more money available to her. This is on Kody. 

[Absolom]

Ratings for Sunday:  1.349 M viewers and a .4 rating.

[MaryMitch]

I haven't seen this discussed - the montage of Kody dancing.  OMG, if nothing else this shows me that the producers must despise Kody.

[toodles]

2 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

It's hard to say. Perhaps. None of them asked, and the one thing that convinced the parents that Mariah could go was that Mariah was the only one carrying on their polygamist legacy, and the only one who remained in their church. The other kids had left.

Also, they use one collective budget for all the kids' colleges. It wasn't that Meri had more on her own, it was that they asked for more than they would for the other kids and the reasoning was Mariah's desire to attend the school for religious reasons. Also, Kody refused to take out loans himself or allow Mariah to work or take out loans/take on debt (which she offered to do) at the time, which is a bit silly as he's not exactly financially responsible. He didn't want her to "have debt" when she graduated or take money from the government, but we all know they've declared bankruptcy multiple times and cheated the welfare system. So I think there was more going on than just Meri being spoiled and demanding, though that was certainly part of it. One thing I will say is that Mariah does work while going to school, while Aspyn and Logan don't and Mykelti didn't when she attended. Aspyn is in a sorority, Logan spends most of his time with his girlfriend, etc. There's nothing wrong with that (they shouldn't have to), but it's part of their choice to attend a cheaper school, and Mariah's job is part of hers. So in that way, it's fair. 

I don't think Mariah needed to go to the school, as she ended up leaving the church. But maybe she needed to be around it more to figure that out. More importantly, I'd hope that the Browns would allow their children to take out loans or devote more college money to a child with a particular need, like a school for a specific area of interest (like a conservatory or tech school). I hope they wouldn't deny them that chance.

Meri having a larger personal, household budget was a different issue. They don't use those budgets for college tuition. So Janelle isn't paying more than one college tuition right now, for example. 

Student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy.  I think that was a big reason they are anti student loans.

[ReadMeLattice]

It is distributed evenly in general. There was an episode about their college finances and they explicitly stated that all the college funds come out of one shared account. Meri had more income, but not more tuition money. They wanted a larger share of the overall tuition money and Kody agreed due to religious/cult reasons (which I think is the dumbest reason out of many, but that's just me). He wouldn't co-sign on a loan for Mariah, even though she'd be the one with the debt. So that was his choice, not Meri's or Mariah's, to be fair. 

It's difficult to say 100% that each child should get the exact same amount of college money. Some kids want to go to the local community college and don't need the money, or they get a scholarship to a state school. Others might have the grades and interest to go to an Ivy (no merit-based scholarships) or the talent and drive for an art school. Neither is more or less respectable, but I don't know that the latter kids should have zero opportunity to do that. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Lm2162

[laurakaye]

Not only did Mariah warn Meri that making "friends" online might be a bad idea , but I am also under the impression that some of Meri's online shenanigans happened while Mariah was in the house with Meri.  That would up the "ick" factor considerably for Mariah.

I get all stabby whenever I hear Meri say that she has to "dill with her fillings."  Yes, she does need to deal with her feelings.  And episode after episode, she not only doesn't deal, she baby steps herself further and further into being the victim, and whining about trust being lost.  Blah blah blah.  Meri talks a lot but doesn't say much of anything, and nothing is being dealt with.

[ReadMeLattice]

Yes, her "fillings" generally seem to consist of "feeling victimized," "feeling superior," "feeling emotionally raped," and "feeling entitled." 

[toodles]

12 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

I haven't seen this discussed - the montage of Kody dancing.  OMG, if nothing else this shows me that the producers must despise Kody.

I said it earlier someplace.  You can only work with what you have, but I agree with you 100 percent.  All the puzzled expressions, the stupid lights, the dancing and his Caleb bromance.  He is getting the wtf edit this time around.

[toodles]

11 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

It is distributed evenly in general. There was an episode about their college finances and they explicitly stated that all the college funds come out of one shared account. Meri had more income, but not more tuition money. They wanted a larger share of the overall tuition money and Kody agreed due to religious/cult reasons (which I think is the dumbest reason out of many, but that's just me). He wouldn't co-sign on a loan for Mariah, even though she'd be the one with the debt. So that was his choice, not Meri's or Mariah's, to be fair. 

It's difficult to say 100% that each child should get the exact same amount of college money. Some kids want to go to the local community college and don't need the money, or they get a scholarship to a state school. Others might have the grades and interest to go to an Ivy (no merit-based scholarships) or the talent and drive for an art school. Neither is more or less respectable, but I don't know that the latter kids should have zero opportunity to do that. 

College money will be long gone by the time the littles are ready for college.

[AZChristian]

Since the inception of reality TV shows, it seems that these shows tend to emphasize the traits of each participant.  If they are greedy, it's blatantly obvious (even though in the early stages, production seems to try to hide it).  If they are kind, that shines through.  If they are lazy, stupid, grifters, etc., - well, it's hard to hide it.  They are just exposing themselves to more than one person at a time on TV.

And yet by looking at "fan" sites, it's easy to see that there are still some people who "buy" it.  Which is why con artists continue to get away with it.

[kassa]

13 hours ago, Adeejay said:

I wish I could give a thousand likes for this post.  That Meri is allotted the same amount of money as Janelle and Christine is beyond ridiculous.  Mariah's old bedroom was the size of a ballroom, while the other kids were three to a room in much smaller rooms.  I can't help but believe that Aspyn, Maddie and Mykelti grew up feeling inferior.  Mariah was all for polygamy when her mother was first wife, but now that she has been demoted and  replaced she has had a revelation and is against it. 

I agree that it's asinine that the money was divided between the wives/"households" as opposed to by the children.

However, I can't blame Mariah for the late epiphany -- at least she's had one, and is she even 20 yet?  Changing circumstances are what make most of us examine our prejudices and our privileges and our experiences.  It would have been great if she'd been a selfless child who spoke up against the family injustices that benefited her... but where do you learn those skills?  From your parents pointing those things out to you when you're small.  That it's not nice to talk about all your new toys when your friend's family spends their money on medical bills.    Or that they have more kids in their family so they don't go on vacation as often as you do.

I suspect that Mariah was raised hearing things more like "Janelle lets Christine raise her kids for her... you're so lucky I would never do that."  and "Christine feeds her kids tater tots -- you're so lucky I take nutrition more seriously." 

So, baby steps. Despite the insanity, I think the Browns have raised more than a dozen pretty damn good people, who uniformly appear to be rejecting the cult dogma while embracing the larger family unit and its relationships.  

Toodles wrote:

Quote

College money will be long gone by the time the littles are ready for college.

And that's when they will hit up the older siblings, now out on their own, not necessarily with 10 kids each yet, to help the younger ones.  Because THEY were given so much, and it's time to pay back.  And I don't even necessarily think that's wrong so much, when it comes to much smaller families where everything is sacrificed to send the oldest in hopes it will trickle down. Here, however, there has been such a goldmine of tv money that could have secured at least a middle class lifestyle for the family that was blown on McMansions and fronting.

Edited June 1, 2016 by kassa

[mlsmit7]

I thought it was decided that Meriah got the same amount of money for college as the other kids. Didn't Kody try to talk her into going to a cheaper school?

Then Meri offered to pay for extra tuition expenses from her budget, which she can do because she gets an unfair share of the money IMO. Am I remembering that episode correctly?

[ReadMeLattice]

I believe that the parents decided to contribute more money to Mariah's tuition, and she also got another scholarship and a job. 

If Meri contributed from her budget, I think that's perfectly fair. She had only one child and that's the budget the family decided on. Fair or unfair, once she got it, it was best used for college tuition. And they're the ones who raised her in the cult she wanted to be part of. 

I will say that none of them need those McMansions. It's insane to have those when you're in a financial hole. 

[Granny58]

4 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Lumbersexual

LOL!

[laurakaye]

But are they in a financial hole at the moment?  I mean, at one point they had the show, their book (no clue how well it sold), their LIV schemes, and MSWC.  Now, I don't for one second presume that the Brown adults had the foresight to save as much of that income as they could, because in their minds they are a fascinating family and their show will continue until we see Baby Sister get married off.  Given how they live, I'd imagine they're going to be in serious trouble as soon as the show goes off the air.  I'm still not clear on how they purchased those gigantic houses.

I wonder how much money Meri made appearing on the Catfish special, and if that money has to be shared with the other wives.