Season 6

[cuddlingcrowley]

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If she really didn't want to walk away when she said "I gotta go" then why did she?  Is Lorelai so insecure/egotistical that she needs someone to plead with her to stay when she says she has to go? 

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YES! Sorry, but dude, what show have you been watching? S6 after April showed was basically about Lorelai losing her faith in her relationship with Luke.

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Luke listened to Lorelai and tried to base his response on what she said. 

Cool! That's nowhere near the same as taking someone's needs into account and trying to meet them halfaway.

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Yes, Luke shot down the idea of leaving to elope that minute, and he was unhappy that she went to talk to Anna without his knowledge.  I don't blame him for either of those things.  When Lorelai said now or never, he very honestly said "I can't just jump like that."  He didn't say I don't want to marry you, he didn't say I don't love you any more.  Why couldn't she meet him halfway at that point?  Did she have to call all the shots?

 

He also didn't say "My real name is Max, I'm a Alien". Whew! Sorry, roswell rewatch.

The entire point of the fight was Lorelai having doubts over Luke loving her and his commitment to marry her given how he treated her during the past few months. The moment he was confronted with that, Luke basically chocked, completely failing to convince her of either, that's why she left. That's on Luke.

That said, I don't think ultimatums are a good idea at all. And I think it's understandable why he chocked. 

32 minutes ago, Smad said:

You can make it easier on yourself. You don't actually need to use the quote function in the reply window. Just double click the text you want to quote (in the person's post) to highlight it and you will see a black/white 'Quote This' pop up. Just click that.

Thank you, that's working for me!

 

32 minutes ago, Smad said:

How was he supposed to meet her halfway? Just look at his face the whole time she is rattling of her 'grievances'. He was completely blind-sided and had no clue what she was even talking about. The only things that he recognised during her insane rant were Anna and April. Everything else was completely new to him. Are you actually asking Luke to be able to connect the dots between the various jumps in topics Lorelai was doing? Especially since Lorelai has kept that all to herself for months until she explodes at him while Luke thought they were ok and Lorelai was ok with how he was handling things.

If Luke was less of a jerk, Lorelai's grievances wouldn't have caught him so off guard. It's because he's a jerk that he was able to spend months not treating her right, without ever stopping a moment to consider his actions weren't okay. Luke should be held accountable to his own actions, he's a grown man.

Lorelai failed to communicate her unhappiness sooner and she failed to communicate it a propper manner by making an ultimatum. That's true. But that doesn't take away his responsability of keeping himself in check and being a decent human being and a decent boyfriend. He failed her on both those accounts after April showed up.

Edited September 11, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[shron17]

7 minutes ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

But yeah, since this show isn't the real world, all it does is piss the audience off, since Luke didn't perform his designated romance-hero-role. Him not chasing her actually is more realistic than anything that led up to that moment. I hate the way they were both twisted into plot props in season 6, so I guess I'll never understand the vitriol directed at Luke for "his" (more like "his pod-person self's") part of it. They were both destroyed, as characters, through the entirety of the season. Which is what makes it so damned painful.

My anger throughout this whole mess is, and always has been, firmly directed at the Palladinos.

I've always hated the typical romance type dramas and never rooted for a couple like this until LL.  And I think you just explained why.  Give me reality any day (but not reality shows!).  But I don't blame it on the Palladinos because I actually think they tried to stay true to the characters while staying within the confines of whatever limitations they had at the time.  The expectation that Luke should have chased her down bugs me much much more than anything Luke actually did.  To me, that would be more controlling than romantic (what if she really did just want to walk away?), and Lorelai's ultimatum, including her declarations of love, always felt more manipulative than desperate to me.

[shron17]

27 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

The entire point of the fight was Lorelai having doubts over Luke loving her and his commitment to marry her given how he treated her during the past few months. The moment he was confronted with that, Luke basically chocked, completely failing to convince her of either, that's why she left. That's on Luke.

The things is, Lorelai never did confront him and tell him how she was feeling.  Her feelings were all wrapped up in a story she told him about how they had to elope now, because now was the time, and Anna said it would be okay, and she liked the purple wallpaper, etc. etc.  I don't think anyone should be expected to be a mind reader in a relationship, nor should they be expected to have an important relationship-changing conversation on demand when confronted by their fiancee at the end of the long, busy day.

32 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Cool! That's nowhere near the same as taking someone's needs into account and trying to meet them halfaway.

So, was it your expectation that Luke had watched season 6 of Gilmore Girls and knew everything we knew about Lorelai's state of mind?  How can he be expected to take her needs into account when she isn't clear about letting him know what they are?

[hippielamb]

On 9/10/2016 at 2:50 AM, Smad said:

It would have been nice though if she let Luke in on the fact that they were completely over before she went to another man's bed. Then it wouldn't have been cheating, just extremely moronic but typical Lorelai behavior.

 

Lorelai did say she it was now or never in regards to getting married. When Luke refused, she said she had to go. The scene of her walking away from him seemed pretty clear it was finally over.

On 9/10/2016 at 2:56 PM, cuddlingcrowley said:

That being said, I think very few of us don't agree that sleeping with the father of your daughter as a way to end a relationship gone bad isn't extreme.  Doing it (heh!) was as effective as it was horrible because, IMO, it was a  deliberate decision to hurt Luke as much as she possibly could. I've always seen it more like retribution than simply a random act of desperation or weakness like most seem to see.

 

That's the number one thing I hate in TV best friends : when they become a shipper of a particular couple. You can have a preference for a guy because you believe he would make your friend happier but there's a different between that and the overly invested so called best friends who activelly root for one guy over the other. It's not about you. It's not about the guy. It's about your friend.

It's less about him bring the father of her child and more about the fact that he's Christopher, the guy she grew up with and has known forever. Lorelai used him but he allowed himself to be used so I can't really cry foul. It does bum me out because I love their relationship. Lorelai sleeping with him was really about her breaking free of Luke instead of reuniting with Chris.

It bothers me because that's not how real friends act. If your friend has been hurt by a guy, you are on her side. Period. You don't make excuses for him. You don't bring him up after your friend has moved on. I really start to dislike Sookie in later seasons because her character changed. The Sookie who was happy for Lorelai when she got engaged to Max, or when Lorelai slept with Chris in season two, or even her niceness to Jason when she met him is gone. She's no longer the supportive best friend.

[hippielamb]

You've Been Gilmored

Paris throwing Rory out is one of those instances where I marvel that Rory ever speaks to her again, let alone stays friends.

I like the interesting parental dynamics going on in this episode. Lorelai is encouraging Rory to have a relationship with her dad. Chris wants to be the cool dad but he is finally trying to act like a parent and feels guilty for ratting out Rory to her mom. 
Aww, Michel. He secretly likes his time with Lorelai.

I am glad the Gilmores brought up the craziness of the DNA test and that Luke never bothered with a paternity test. Obviously, April is his daughter but if this were a real life event, the guy would insist on a paternity test.

A Vineyard Valentine

Ugh Luke at his worst and Lorelai at her meekest. I am glad she finally snapped at him but it didn't last long and it's back to the same when they come back to the diner.

On the plus side, Logan and Rory are pretty cute. Logan was being very accomodating. It is weird that he makes Rory promises about Asia when he knows he has to be in London. Maybe he's in denial until Mitchum shows up.

This episode shows how Rory conforms to whomever she is with. When she is with Logan, she's cooking and going to the gym. Once she's with her mom, she is tired from a short walk, doesn't understand exercise equipment, and happily excepts massages from the laundry guys.

Bridesmaids Revisited

It's sad that Rory finds out about the bridesmaids because earlier in this episode she and Logan were so happy. He's encouraging about the debate and being a great boyfriend. Talk about a kick in the teeth.

Lor and Chris are cute as always. It's nice to see her smile again. She cares enough about Gigi to risk making him mad by criticizing his parenting. I like that he recognizes he is hurting Gigi in the long run and listens to Lorelai.

I don't like Lane's engagement, she deserves better. But she is happy so I'm on board.

[Smad]

5 hours ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

I hate the way they were both twisted into plot props in season 6, so I guess I'll never understand the vitriol directed at Luke for "his" (more like "his pod-person self's") part of it. They were both destroyed, as characters, through the entirety of the season. Which is what makes it so damned painful.

Exactly how I feel. I enjoy the occasional glimpses of real-Luke that we get in S5 and 6. The rest of th time I'm just like 'Ah so this is another episode where someone spiked the SH water supply again.'.

5 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

The entire point of the fight was Lorelai having doubts over Luke loving her and his commitment to marry her given how he treated her during the past few months. The moment he was confronted with that, Luke basically chocked, completely failing to convince her of either, that's why she left. That's on Luke.

And yet other times in S6 when Lorelai would actually approach Luke in a calm manner he responded positively. Funny that.

5 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

If Luke was less of a jerk, Lorelai's grievances wouldn't have caught him so off guard. It's because he's a jerk that he was able to spend months not treating her right, without ever stopping a moment to consider his actions weren't okay. Luke should be held accountable to his own actions, he's a grown man.

Lorelai failed to communicate her unhappiness sooner and she failed to communicate it a propper manner by making an ultimatum. That's true. But that doesn't take away his responsability of keeping himself in check and being a decent human being and a decent boyfriend. He failed her on both those accounts after April showed up.

No, just no. Lorelai is not the victim of some kind of abusive relationship. Or in some way shackled to Luke with no way of getting out. Lorelai is not a victim. In fact she had the power the whole time. She was the one seeing their relationship going down the drain and she had several options. She could have forced the issue, she could have hit Luke upside the head (metaphorically) or she could have ended the relationship sooner if she was so unhappy. And that is precisely why I don't have much sympathy for her. The person who is first and foremost responsible for Lorelai's well being is Lorelai herself.

And Lorelai was also dishonest during their whole relationship. Why are you not taking her to task? The Christopher stuff in both S5 and S6 for example. The fact that she was emotionally dishonest to Luke for half of S6 when she constantly lied to his face. And of course when she hid from her own fiance who was frantically looking all over the place for her.

And IMO April should have been his first priority once both him and her decided to have a relationship with each other. She's his daughter. Like Lorelai wouldn't have been practically acting similiarily if it had been her and Rory in their place? Doubt it.

43 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

Lorelai did say she it was now or never in regards to getting married. When Luke refused, she said she had to go. The scene of her walking away from him seemed pretty clear it was finally over.

No it seemed pretty clear that he said no to marrying RIGHT THIS SECOND. In no way did it seem clear to him that their entire relationship was over. Just because it seemed clear to Lorelai, in her head, that they were over for good means nothing. Contrary to popular belief Luke is not a mind reader. She still has to say, out loud, that it's officially over for good.

5 hours ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

I hate the way they were both twisted into plot props in season 6, so I guess I'll never understand the vitriol directed at Luke for "his" (more like "his pod-person self's") part of it. They were both destroyed, as characters, through the entirety of the season. Which is what makes it so damned painful.

Exactly how I feel. I enjoy the occasional glimpses of real-Luke that we get in S5 and 6. The rest of th time I'm just like 'Ah so this is another episode where someone spiked the SH water supply again.'.

5 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

The entire point of the fight was Lorelai having doubts over Luke loving her and his commitment to marry her given how he treated her during the past few months. The moment he was confronted with that, Luke basically chocked, completely failing to convince her of either, that's why she left. That's on Luke.

And yet other times in S6 when Lorelai would actually approach Luke in a calm manner he responded positively. Funny that.

5 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

If Luke was less of a jerk, Lorelai's grievances wouldn't have caught him so off guard. It's because he's a jerk that he was able to spend months not treating her right, without ever stopping a moment to consider his actions weren't okay. Luke should be held accountable to his own actions, he's a grown man.

Lorelai failed to communicate her unhappiness sooner and she failed to communicate it a propper manner by making an ultimatum. That's true. But that doesn't take away his responsability of keeping himself in check and being a decent human being and a decent boyfriend. He failed her on both those accounts after April showed up.

No, just no. Lorelai is not the victim of some kind of abusive relationship. Or in some way shackled to Luke with no way of getting out. Lorelai is not a victim. In fact she had the power the whole time. She was the one seeing their relationship going down the drain and she had several options. She could have forced the issue, she could have hit Luke upside the head (metaphorically) or she could have ended the relationship sooner if she was so unhappy. And that is precisely why I don't have much sympathy for her. The person who is first and foremost responsible for Lorelai's well being is Lorelai herself.

And Lorelai was also dishonest during their whole relationship. Why are you not taking her to task? The Christopher stuff in both S5 and S6 for example. The fact that she was emotionally dishonest to Luke for half of S6 when she constantly lied to his face. And of course when she hid from her own fiance who was frantically looking all over the place for her.

And IMO April should have been his first priority once both him and her decided to have a relationship with each other. She's his daughter. Like Lorelai wouldn't have been practically acting similiarily if it had been her and Rory in their place? Doubt it.

43 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

Lorelai did say she it was now or never in regards to getting married. When Luke refused, she said she had to go. The scene of her walking away from him seemed pretty clear it was finally over.

No it seemed pretty clear that he said no to marrying RIGHT THIS SECOND. In no way did it seem clear to him that their entire relationship was over. Just because it seemed clear to Lorelai, in her head, that they were over for good means nothing. Contrary to popular belief Luke is not a mind reader. She still has to say, out loud, that it's officially over for good.

[clack]

Lorelai is a creature of impulse, Luke a creature of habit. Most of the time they compliment each other, but Lorelai's elopement proposal was a shitty move to pull on Luke. It was a test he wasn't expecting -- in fact, he didn't even realize he was being tested -- and it was a test that Loerlai must have known he was likely to fail.

The more grounded partner in a relationship is more likely to have the more realistic and forgiving view of the other person. Luke would have known what was and was not in Lorelai's character, and would not have tried to force her to do something she wasn't capable of.

What made Loerlai think that the Luke she knew he would drop everything to run off with her immediately, without notice, without a plan? 

Can you even do that? Without a marriage license, just get in a car and drive around until you find a judge or a clerk willing to perform a marriage ceremony on the spot? That may sound romantic to Loerlai, but to Luke it would be a nightmare.

[chessiegal]

Lorerlai specifically said Maryland. My grandfather eloped to Maryland in the 60's. You have to get the license in the county where the marriage is to be performed, and there is an up to 48 hour waiting period, no blood tests required. So yeah, it's easy to get married here. Get the license, show up at the court house, and off you go.

[CalamityBoPeep]

6 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

Lorerlai specifically said Maryland. My grandfather eloped to Maryland in the 60's. You have to get the license in the county where the marriage is to be performed, and there is an up to 48 hour waiting period, no blood tests required. So yeah, it's easy to get married here. Get the license, show up at the court house, and off you go.

So basically, it wasn't even a "let's leave your customers and do this tonight" sort of thing, as much as it was "let's leave your customers and you abandon your life for three or four days, starting now" sort of thing. That's a great way to build a relationship with a new daughter. He's just supposed to drop any plans he had with April, just like that? 

Lorelai's claim that April needs to fit around their lives, is looking more and more selfish by the minute. Never would she have allowed any man to pull that card about Rory.

[clack]

Dupe.

Edited September 12, 2016 by clack

[clack]

Here is a manner of presentation that might have appealed to Luke's personality:

"Let's get married right away. We can go to Maryland and get married within 48 hours. This is a brochure for an inn that we can stay at, and here is the address for the courthouse that will perform the ceremony. Can you arrange to take Thursday and Friday off? Why don't you think about it tonight, and call me tomorrow morning."

[clack]

Dupe

Edited September 12, 2016 by clack

[FictionLover]

Luke was awful in Vineyard Valentine and Super Cool Party People...even though I shipped the couple I wished she would have broke it off then.

[RachelKM]

My feelings are mixed on the subject of Luke and Lorelai.  I got caught up in their meant to be stuff for a sec, but I really never liked the idea of them as a couple as much as friends.  In general, Lorelai was too selfish and I didn't actually like that Luke seemed to feed that side of her, almost fetishizing her manic, self-obsessed tendencies as adorable. As I said in another thread, Lorelia was, in romantic relationships, the 30 plus version of a manic-pixy-dreamgirl and I found it sort of not my favorite side of her even when I myself was much younger.

As a character, Luke didn't appeal to me as a romantic lead because he was too agro and grumpy. I find that to be a sometimes fun stock character, but not so much for a romantic partner.  And I hated that he punched Chris - Lorelai went to him.*  And who drives all the way to another town to ring someone's doorbell and punch them?  It's not cute. 

Viewed on its own, Luke's behavior in Season 6 regarding April was totally out of bounds. I was okay with him keeping it to himself for a bit.  But two months and Lorelai finding out rather than being told was super shitty.  And I get that Anna was  totally nutbar with keeping Lorelai out of April's life entirely until they were married - it's not like Luke and Lorelai had just met on the internet and started dating, they were engaged for fuck's sake - but Luke didn't just keep Lorelai out of April's life, he shut her out of his own.  I think if Luke had confided in her more and even taking up for her with Anna and contradicted the Lorelia exile on her behalf, it would have gone a long way toward making Lorelai feel at least included in his life, if not everything.  Instead he completely shut her out... except when he needed her advise for an emergency situation.

I understand the perspective that what Luke went through with Jess and Lorelai might have made him gun shy about her tendency to overstep and judge.  And I get that he felt in a precarious position with Anna and didn't want to upset her too much lest she might keep him from April altogether (though, really, a court would have ordered some contact if he sought with likelihood of expansion, but that is neither here nor there when dealing with emotional fears).  So  I can understand people justifying his behavior a bit. All that said, if you don't confide in and trust your partner, then you really don't have a good relationship and probably shouldn't get married.

 

*On the were they weren't they really broken up / was it cheating debate as to Luke and Lorelai and her going to Chris, I think they were broken up and it wasn't cheating because Lorelai meant for it to be a break up.  That said, I think clarity in breaking up or no, the shitty thing she did there was 1) sleeping with someone so soon, 2) choosing a person about whom Luke already had a lot of issues regarding their continued feelings, thus poking an existing wound and 3) straight-up using Chris. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by RachelKM

[txhorns79]

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She still has to say, out loud, that it's officially over for good.

Or what?  They stay together forever regardless of what Lorelai thinks?  I remember the scene.  She made an ultimatum, and he responded by saying "no."  I don't know how someone would honestly be able to come away from that moment not realizing the relationship was over unless they are just in very deep denial. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by txhorns79

[Melancholy]

38 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I understand the perspective that what Luke went through with Jess and Lorelai might have made him gun shy about her tendency to overstep and judge.  And I get that he felt in a precarious position with Anna and didn't want to upset her too much lest she might keep him from April altogether (though, really, a court would have ordered some contact if he sought with likelihood of expansion, but that is neither here nor there when dealing with emotional fears).  So  I can understand people justifying his behavior a bit. All that said, if you don't confide in and trust your partner, then you really don't have a good relationship and probably shouldn't get married

I'm a Luke/Lorelai shipper and I don't think they were ready to get married in S6 for the same reasons. Lorelai and Luke both had big flaws that meant that their relationship really collapsed when exposed to external problems. Life problems can get significantly uglier than one partner finding out that they had a kid so if Luke/Lorelai folded at that, they weren't ready to get married. IMO, Luke worked on these flaws in S7 and he became more expressive and open. He learned how to let go of some anger and darkness. Ironically, a lot of this was through Luke's relationship with April so you could argue that April didn't ruin Luke/Lorelai but instead, mainly served as a positive influence on Luke. I know I'd say that. However, I don't see Lorelai go through any evolution in S7. She needed to become less selfish and hypocritical. She needed to grow up and better learn how to express herself when she's upset outside of quips or tantrums. I don't think Lorelai learned a damn thing about any of that- which is a shame because she's supposed to be the main character.

[TimetravellingBW]

On 9/12/2016 at 6:07 AM, shron17 said:

The things is, Lorelai never did confront him and tell him how she was feeling.  Her feelings were all wrapped up in a story she told him about how they had to elope now, because now was the time, and Anna said it would be okay, and she liked the purple wallpaper, etc. etc.  I don't think anyone should be expected to be a mind reader in a relationship, nor should they be expected to have an important relationship-changing conversation on demand when confronted by their fiancee at the end of the long, busy day. 

So, was it your expectation that Luke had watched season 6 of Gilmore Girls and knew everything we knew about Lorelai's state of mind?  How can he be expected to take her needs into account when she isn't clear about letting him know what they are?

On the Luke/Lorelai issue and who was to blame, I think it was appalling that he didn't tell her about April for months. Yes I can understand that maybe he was worried about Lorelai's tendency to judge and meddle in these situations - especially after the history with Jess - but I didn't get the impression Luke thought Lorelai was that bad, and if he was that sensitive about her input into his life then he shouldn't have been marrying her. But the show didn't go down that route as the reason they broke up. 

After Lorelai found out about April, I'd say they were both as bad as each other. Luke should have been more sensitive to Lorelai's feelings and let her be part of April's life especially after hiding April for so long, but Lorelai should have opened up and talked about her damn feelings. I agree that part of the problem was Lorelai was used to being Luke's sole focus for years (barring Jess's two year stint), and he could be constantly aware and accommodating of her feelings. Which meant she never actually learned to voice when something was wrong and the moment he had something else to deal with, and couldn't dedicate 90% of his time to handling her, she just stewed in silence for months waiting for him to notice.

So their big blow up at the end of S6 - that's 100% on Lorelai. As so many others have said you don't get to not say anything for months on end, explode out of nowhere, issue ultimatums and then walk off. You certainly don't go and sleep with your ex - who you've lied about seeing before, and know your current fiancee/partner is insecure about - hours after a fight in which you never explicitly broke up with you fiancee. In my mind that's cheating, even if you tell him the next day. Hell, even if Lorelai had handed the ring back and then gone to Chris that's still absolutely shitty behaviour. (In comparing to the Ross/Rachel debate, imo it was pretty clear Ross/Rahcel were broken up - she said she wanted to "get back together" in the phone call the next day - but Ross sleeping with someone else just after they split is super gross and no wonder Rachel wouldn't take him back. And he only slept with a random chick, not an ex he had priors with who tried to get rid of Rachel, like Chris tried to get rid of Luke). 

On 9/11/2016 at 3:06 PM, cuddlingcrowley said:

I can't comment on the Friends thing because I never watched it, but I think we essentially agree that the right thing to do would have been for Lorelai to officially end things with Luke if she wanted out. Now, easy? That's a whole other game. IMO, if she felt she had to go to such extremes as to sleep with Christopher, than it obviously wasn't an easy thing to go through, for her.

That said, a big part of me still has doubts over whether Lorelai truly owed to Luke anything at this point on the show. Yes, ideally she should have been less ambiguous about ending things with him. But when I remember how terribly he treated her after April showed up then I have very little simpathy left for him.

Believe it or not, we're probably very similar in real life. I also don't like things messy. Clean breaks, all the way, baby! But recently I've learned not everyone cares to wait for an oficial ending before, eh, "moving on", and frankly, can you truly blame them? I don't think I can if we're talking about a couple in which the other party has checked out or if they've been essentially pushing till it breaks. Like how I feel Luke did in s6. You treat people how you want to be treated, and boy did he make his bed. 

Did Lorelai truly owe Luke anything at this point in the show? Um, what? I'd say ten years of friendship (or however long it was in GG's dubious continuity), 2 years of a relationship and being freaking engaged to someone means hell yes Lorelai owes Luke something. That comment suggests that she had free reign to cheat on him or abandon him without any explanation. Unless a partner is abusive, I'd say you always owe to officially break up with someone. (People don't always keep to that but Loreali is meant to be the protaganist and a character we root for, not a villain). Nothing Luke had done since April was revealed merited Lorelai not "owing" him anything.

If she'd wanted to break up or end the engagement over him hiding April, back when she found out the truth, that would be understandable. Hiding your kid is a major thing. (If anyone's a fan of Arrow, I was 100% behind Felicity dumping Oliver after he lied about his kid, on top of his previous seasons of secrets ). But that's not what the Luke/Lorelai fight was about. They'd moved on from him lying about April. That was Lorelai throwing a tantrum over feelings she hid from Luke,  expecting him to somehow understand and respond correctly, and when he didn't, effectively cheating on him. And if she "had" to sleep with Chris to properly break up with Luke because it was so "hard" to do - then that's the height of cowardice and cruelty: That she'd rather pile more hurt on the man she loved by sleeping with another guy rather than break up with him honestly. 

Also yes to all of this:

On 9/12/2016 at 11:24 AM, Smad said:

No, just no. Lorelai is not the victim of some kind of abusive relationship. Or in some way shackled to Luke with no way of getting out. Lorelai is not a victim. In fact she had the power the whole time. She was the one seeing their relationship going down the drain and she had several options. She could have forced the issue, she could have hit Luke upside the head (metaphorically) or she could have ended the relationship sooner if she was so unhappy. And that is precisely why I don't have much sympathy for her. The person who is first and foremost responsible for Lorelai's well being is Lorelai herself.

Ultimately Luke was awful about hiding April, and super insensitive about shutting Lorelai out, but he never deliberately went out of his way to destroy their relationship like she did.

Edited September 13, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Viqutorious]

17 hours ago, RachelKM said:

 

As a character, Luke didn't appeal to me as a romantic lead because he was too agro and grumpy. I find that to be a sometimes fun stock character, but not so much for a romantic partner.  And I hated that he punched Chris - Lorelai went to him.*  And who drives all the way to another town to ring someone's doorbell and punch them?  It's not cute

I also don't think Scott Patterson was a good enough actor to pull this role off. He huffed and gruffed his way through and I felt he played the part angry. (Same with Dean) I felt the role needed more levity and self awareness plus the writers failed to make him romantic enough to be a leading man. I still cringe over the Valentine's Day necklace.

[Melancholy]

Another thing that ticks me off about Lorelai was how she folded like a cheap suit when she went to confront Anna. If it was so easy and obvious for Luke to assert himself and let Lorelai into his and April's life, than why did Lorelai basically concede all points to Anna? It's not like Lorelai is some wallflower or she can't argue for herself. I think it's because Anna so clearly had a strangle-hold on April to the point that Luke basically had to comply with her rules and suck up to have access to her kids, right up until Luke would sue for his paternal rights and force Anna to be reasonable. Lorelai could see that. Lorelai could see that which is why she backed off the case. She just expected Luke to somewhat wave a wand and fix it by himself- partly through marrying Lorelai because Lorelai argued that they could both be in April's lives if they were married because Anna said so. But that's a piss poor reason to get married- get hitched because the crazy lady said that it's the only way for a reasonable custody arrangement and see how the crazy lady responds then. 

[langway]

22 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Another thing that ticks me off about Lorelai was how she folded like a cheap suit when she went to confront Anna. If it was so easy and obvious for Luke to assert himself and let Lorelai into his and April's life, than why did Lorelai basically concede all points to Anna? It's not like Lorelai is some wallflower or she can't argue for herself. I think it's because Anna so clearly had a strangle-hold on April to the point that Luke basically had to comply with her rules and suck up to have access to her kids, right up until Luke would sue for his paternal rights and force Anna to be reasonable. Lorelai could see that. Lorelai could see that which is why she backed off the case. She just expected Luke to somewhat wave a wand and fix it by himself- partly through marrying Lorelai because Lorelai argued that they could both be in April's lives if they were married because Anna said so. But that's a piss poor reason to get married- get hitched because the crazy lady said that it's the only way for a reasonable custody arrangement and see how the crazy lady responds then. 

Even if L/L had gotten married, Anna would have pulled some bullshit to keep April from going over there. She would have said something like "In public places ONLY. AND NO LORELAI." That woman was a loon, I wouldn't put anything past her. 

[Melancholy]

2 hours ago, langway said:

Even if L/L had gotten married, Anna would have pulled some bullshit to keep April from going over there. She would have said something like "In public places ONLY. AND NO LORELAI." That woman was a loon, I wouldn't put anything past her. 

Anna's also a dishonest loon. Her word is entirely worthless. Lorelai's almost deliberately naive to take Anna at her word that marriage between her and Luke will cause Luke's parenting issues with Anna to fall into place. I mean, some of this is also on Luke. He shouldn't have been crawling to Anna for a skosh of his rights to April. He should have asserted himself right off the bat and powered through this fear of confrontation for his sake, April's sake, and Lorelai's sake. But it really gets me that Lorelai was acting like this was so easy when she didn't know how to fix the mess beyond "Marry ME, pay attention to ME, and everything will be fine."

Edited September 13, 2016 by Melancholy

[RachelKM]

45 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Anna's also a dishonest loon. Her word is entirely worthless. Lorelai's almost deliberately naive to take Anna at her word that marriage between her and Luke will cause Luke's parenting issues with Anna to fall into place. I mean, some of this is also on Luke. He shouldn't have been crawling to Anna for a skosh of his rights to April. He should have asserted himself right off the bat and powered through this fear of confrontation for his sake, April's sake, and Lorelai's sake. But it really gets me that Lorelai was acting like this was so easy when she didn't know how to fix the mess beyond "Marry ME, pay attention to ME, and everything will be fine."

I agree that Anna was difficult, unreasonable, and I believe throwing up any excuse because she never intended for Luke to be involved at all so she wanted any excuse to limit and control the contact he had.  But I think Lorelai, especially after that confrontation but even before, would have been far less hurt if Luke was including her in HIS processing it and dealing with it.  Even if he abided by the "no contact" rule and didn't have Lorelai with them when he spent time with April, he could have still discussed his thoughts and feelings with Lorelai.  I realize that talking about things in general, let alone his feelings, wasn't Luke's strong suit.  However, he needed to bring Lorelai in in some way, even if it was just voicing his frustration with Anna or telling Lorelai how his day with April went, something to make her feel he wasn't completely walling off and entire section of his life, and important one at that. 

Obviously, Lorelai should have said something about what she was feeling too.  But I don't feel that Luke was very receptive to that. He was very much focused on his new daughter, which is very understandable, but his attitude was I just need to do this my way to get my head around it. That's very Luke, but its one more reason their relationship was a mess that year (and part of my reasoning why I don't think they are suited, but that's a different conversation).

Edited September 13, 2016 by RachelKM

[Melancholy]

37 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I agree that Anna was difficult, unreasonable, and I believe throwing up any excuse because she never intended for Luke to be involved at all so she wanted any excuse to limit and control the contact he had.  But I think Lorelai, especially after that confrontation but even before, would have been far less hurt if Luke was including her in HIS processing it and dealing with it.  Even if he abided by the "no contact" rule and didn't have Lorelai with them when he spent time with April, he could ahve still discussed his thoughts and feelings with Lorelai.  I realize that talking about things in general, let alone his feelings, wasn't Luke's strong suit.  However, he needed to bring Lorelai in in some way, even if it was just voicing his frustration with Anna or telling Lorelai how his day with April went, something to make her feel he wasn't completely walling off and entire section of his life, and important one at that. 

Obviously, Lorelai should have said something about what she was feeling too.  But I don't feel that Luke was very receptive to that. He was very much focused on his new daughter, which is very understandable, but his attitude was I just need to do this my way to get my head around it. That's very Luke, but its one more reason their relationship was a mess that year (and part of my reasoning why I don't think they are suited, but that's a different conversation).

I agree with all of this. I think Lorelai would still be upset if Luke was confiding in her about April, but still wasn't including Lorelai in his life with April because he was abiding by Anna's orders and delaying the marriage until he felt comfortable with April. Maybe Lorelai would still be upset enough to still ultimately issue an ultimatum and when Luke didn't accept, sleep with Christopher immediately afterwards. But then, maybe Lorelai could have been that fresh pair of eyes to tell Luke that he needed to sue for his rights if she had a better idea of Luke's feelings about April and plans to parent. Which I still say was the only way of resolving the custody because Anna's an unreasonable liar. I still stand by that Lorelai is very bull-headed that things need to occur HER way and she wasn't going to be happy until she, herself, got to the point that April was a good addition to her life instead of a distraction to Luke. And that Lorelai lacked perspective of the difficulty of the situation and I think she only played lip service to the fact that April was absolutely Luke's daughter and thus, justifiably Luke's priority who must considered in Luke's life like Rory is to Lorelai. However, Lorelai would be less hurt. Luke could have been unable to deal with Anna but still dealt with Lorelai better than he did. I agree that it's not Luke to just talk about his feelings. He could share a life with someone but it really has to be through action. Like, he and Lorelai very easily shared co-parenting of April at her birthday party. But he can't make someone feel included and valued through his words if action is removed from it. It's a serious character flaw and it was absolutely part of the S6 mess. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Melancholy

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

As a character, Luke didn't appeal to me as a romantic lead because he was too agro and grumpy. I find that to be a sometimes fun stock character, but not so much for a romantic partner.  And I hated that he punched Chris - Lorelai went to him.*  And who drives all the way to another town to ring someone's doorbell and punch them?  It's not cute

No, Christopher deserved it.  The fact that Lorelai went to him doesn't excuse his Nice Guy behavior by taking advantage of any situation.  He could have been the bigger person by telling Lorelai that he was sorry she was upset, but didn't want to be used as a rebound.  Just like he could have easily told Emily off for giving him a wedding invite back in season 5 to get him to break them up.  He had free will and made a conscious choice.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I agree that Anna was difficult, unreasonable, and I believe throwing up any excuse because she never intended for Luke to be involved at all so she wanted any excuse to limit and control the contact he had.  But I think Lorelai, especially after that confrontation but even before, would have been far less hurt if Luke was including her in HIS processing it and dealing with it.  Even if he abided by the "no contact" rule and didn't have Lorelai with them when he spent time with April, he could ahve still discussed his thoughts and feelings with Lorelai.  

Bottom line, Lorelai never should have gone to Anna on her own.  She should have gone to Luke and said, "Okay, you involved me with the party.  I am involved now and need to meet Anna."  By going behind his back she disregarded any authority Luke had over his daughter and most likely compromised Anna's opinion of Luke.  And made herself vulnerable to Anna's whims.  

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I realize that talking about things in general, let alone his feelings, wasn't Luke's strong suit.  However, he needed to bring Lorelai in in some way, even if it was just voicing his frustration with Anna or telling Lorelai how his day with April went, something to make her feel he wasn't completely walling off and entire section of his life, and important one at that. 

I don't think we ever saw Lorelai ask Luke how he was doing with it all and really listen to what he said.  She tried to be supportive and gave him advice, but never tried to meet him where he was in the process.  Jess asked how he was doing, but never Lorelai.  When Luke talked about April to Lorelai, she mainly gave him advice and then looked hurt when he wasn't grateful.  He did involve her with the birthday gift shopping and she made fun of him even though she knew he hated choosing gifts and was likely feeling vulnerable about April.

Quote

That's very Luke, but its one more reason their relationship was a mess that year (and part of my reasoning why I don't think they are suited, but that's a different conversation).

I'm one of very few who actually feel that Luke had the right to build a relationship with his daughter in whatever way was comfortable and worked for him.  In fact, I think he had an obligation to April and himself to be authentic in their new relationship.  It's great that Lorelai already knew so much about raising Rory, but in my opinion, it was far more important that Luke find his own way as he learned to be a dad to April.  And if he had included Lorelai more, I'm not sure she could have given him the space he needed.  Also, it sounds a little like you are saying Lorelai isn't suited to be with any man who isn't willing to let his life revolve completely around her regardless of what he wants for himself.  You may be right.

Edited September 13, 2016 by shron17

[court32]

16 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

No, Christopher deserved it.  The fact that Lorelai went to him doesn't excuse his Nice Guy behavior by taking advantage of any situation.  He could have been the bigger person by telling Lorelai that he was sorry she was upset, but didn't want to be used as a rebound.  Just like he could have easily told Emily off for giving him a wedding invite back in season 5 to get him to break them up.  He had free will and made a conscious choice.

Christopher didn't force Lorelai to go over to his house and sleep with him. While I agree it was shitty to sleep with someone who is so obviously distraught, that is still ultimately on Lorelai. It's not Luke's job to go over there and reprimand him. I guess I'm just not a fan of anyone over the age of 3 solving their anger issues by hitting people. 

[Melancholy]

I'm a "There's never a good excuse to hit someone except in self-defense or defense of others" person. So, on the level of physical violence, Luke was wrong. However if Luke went over to *verbally* attack Chris, I'd be fine with it. The choice to go over was ultimately Lorelai's but Chris was a slimeball to go in for the sex when Lorelai was clearly in pain and vulnerable. Lorelai looked so devastatingly sad and horrified that I just wondered how Christopher was enjoying the sex at all if he derives any satisfaction from his sexual partner's emotions while they're sleeping together instead of just considering her a blow-up doll for his pleasure. 

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

No, Christopher deserved it.  The fact that Lorelai went to him doesn't excuse his Nice Guy behavior by taking advantage of any situation.  He could have been the bigger person by telling Lorelai that he was sorry she was upset, but didn't want to be used as a rebound.  Just like he could have easily told Emily off for giving him a wedding invite back in season 5 to get him to break them up.  He had free will and made a conscious choice.

The quote you were responding to was actually me.  And it's not about whether Christopher deserved it; it's about the fact that getting in your car and driving to another town to ring a door bell and punch a person is seriously fucked up. It is inexcusable behavior for an adult.  I can wave off a punch that happens in the heat of the moment.  If Christopher had been present when Luke found out and had in someway tried to interject an explanation, I could see punching him while still in the heat of it.  It would still be wrong, but more understandable.  But it was HOURS later when Luke drove himself to another town went into Christopher's building, calmly rung the bell, and then punched him the moment he opened the door.*  

And whether or not you think Christopher took advantage of Lorelai, that is Lorelai's place to be mad or okay with it.  That would be true even if Luke and Lorelai had not broken up, but it is doubly true since they had.   It's actually rather sexist.  Lorelai didn't seem upset by Christopher's actions, but rather her own and she didn't even express that to Luke.  That was Luke acting like a caveman and I didn't care for it.  

 

*I also hated Christopher jumping Luke in the town square at Christmas.  It was gross.  The only thing I can say about that was that it was seconds after the stuff with Lorelai and he and Luke saw each other and mutually fought.  Still found it awful of both of them, moreso Christopher in that instance because he seem to instigate it, but at least it was closer to being heat of the moment and mutual. I guess I'm just not a fan of the sexist trope of men fighting each other for a woman or defending a woman's "honor" through violence.

 

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I'm a "There's never a good excuse to hit someone except in self-defense or defense of others" person. So, on the level of physical violence, Luke was wrong. However if Luke went over to *verbally* attack Chris, I'd be fine with it. The choice to go over was ultimately Lorelai's but Chris was a slimeball to go in for the sex when Lorelai was clearly in pain and vulnerable. Lorelai looked so devastatingly sad and horrified that I just wondered how Christopher was enjoying the sex at all if he derives any satisfaction from his sexual partner's emotions while they're sleeping together instead of just considering her a blow-up doll for his pleasure. 

See, I get that it seems like Christopher took advantage, but I also think Lorelai used him a bit.  She didn't seem all that upset with Christopher. She seemed a little upset with herself, but it seemed more shock about having blown up her life.  I agree that even if Lorelai went over there with the expressed intent of sleeping with him to put the nail in the coffin of L&L, a better person would have turned her down in her emotional state.  But I'm not sure that I would go as far as to say he was being a slimeball.  Using sex for reasons other than wanting sex, particularly wanting sex with the specific person you are with, isn't the best plan, but lots of people do it and it doesn't necessarily make the other person awful.

I also think Chris didn't want to see that she was only there to blow up her life.  Pretty much episodes 1-11 of Season 7 confirm that Christopher is being willfully blind because he wanted to believe so hard that it was finally their time.  It wasn't.  But Lorelai had a hand in that delusion, too.  

Edited September 13, 2016 by RachelKM

[JaggedLilPill]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I agree that Anna was difficult, unreasonable, and I believe throwing up any excuse because she never intended for Luke to be involved at all so she wanted any excuse to limit and control the contact he had.  But I think Lorelai, especially after that confrontation but even before, would have been far less hurt if Luke was including her in HIS processing it and dealing with it.  Even if he abided by the "no contact" rule and didn't have Lorelai with them when he spent time with April, he could have still discussed his thoughts and feelings with Lorelai.  I realize that talking about things in general, let alone his feelings, wasn't Luke's strong suit.  However, he needed to bring Lorelai in in some way, even if it was just voicing his frustration with Anna or telling Lorelai how his day with April went, something to make her feel he wasn't completely walling off and entire section of his life, and important one at that. 

Obviously, Lorelai should have said something about what she was feeling too.  But I don't feel that Luke was very receptive to that. He was very much focused on his new daughter, which is very understandable, but his attitude was I just need to do this my way to get my head around it. That's very Luke, but its one more reason their relationship was a mess that year (and part of my reasoning why I don't think they are suited, but that's a different conversation).

I agree completely.

There's nothing wrong with Luke wanting to build a relationship with his daughter, but the way Luke decided to go about it was just plain wrong.

The whole situation makes Luke look completely hypocritical. Starting from "Yeah she's your daughter, but I'm in the middle." Which Lorelai agreed with him and apologized to him. So, he's in the middle when it comes to Lorelai and Rory and Lorelai is what when it comes to Luke and April? Just a non-biased party? No. It affects her too.

Lorelai isn't allowed to meet April or have an input, but Luke has throughout the years had an input with Rory and acted completely inappropriate in certain situations (beating up a 16 y/o Dean? And then again the double date)? And I know people will say it's on Lorelai to set the boundaries when it comes to Luke and Rory,  but it's also on Luke that he frequently inserted himself into that relationship. Even to the point of calling out Chris on being a deadbeat. Not that Luke was wrong in that assessment, but my mom is a stepmom to my siblings who are older than me. Their mother was a nightmare. She makes Chris look like a good dad. As much as my mom may have wanted to call her an unfit mother, etc, she knew that it was not her place. And I don't think Lorelai going to Anna is the same as Luke vs Christopher. Do I agree that Lorelai should have talked to Luke about it beforehand? Yes, but Lorelai was calm and non-confrontational and she went there with the intention of smoothing the situation and over and allowing Anna to feel comfortable about Lorelai being around April. I actually think it was a good move. Besides, it's not like Luke was going to do anything other than kowtow to Anna's demands. 

So, yeah, Lorelai may be selfish and self-centered. But Luke is a giant hypocrite when it comes to Rory vs what Lorelai is to April.

[Smad]

4 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

After Lorelai found out about April, I'd say they were both as bad as each other. Luke should have been more sensitive to Lorelai's feelings and let her be part of April's life especially after hiding April for so long, but Lorelai should have opened up and talked about her damn feelings.

For me the problem will always be that Lorelai essentially did the same thing Luke did earlier in the Season. Yet a lot of people hate Luke for what he did and Lorelai gets a pass. It's the manipulative storytelling with half a Season of sadface!Lorelai and I hate it. IMO Luke took his cue as to how to handle the 'daughter crisis' from Lorelai. She was the one who told him to stay out of her troubles with Rory. While she conceeded that he was in the middle (after HE had to tell her that) he never brought the subject up again except to Rory on her 21st b-day. She was the one who postponed the wedding indefinitely first until the daughter crisis was over.

I have always been more sympathetic for Luke's situation because Lorelai is partially responsible for her daughter crisis. And she did absolutely nothing to resolve it, perfectly happy to wait forever (and make Luke wait forever) until Rory came crawling back. While Luke was absolutely not responsible for his daughter crisis simply because he didn't even know he had a daughter to begin with. Once that registered though he did what he could (with a lot of missteps but hey he got dropped the daughter bomb) to have a relationship with her. And IMO Luke had the the same right as Lorelai to have his daughter at his wedding, so if it had to be postponed so he could forge a relationship with April to the point where she actually wants to be at her fathers wedding then that's fine with me.

Sure Luke should have been more sensitive to Lorelai's feelings during that time. But I can just imagine what was going on in his dead during that time. What it meant that a woman didn't tell him he had a child because she thought he would be unfit to be a dad. What that in return meant for him as a person and potential parent to other children (namely his and Lorelai's). Would he even be able to have a relationship with April since her mother saw him unfit and would April even want him as a parent. On and on it goes. There are so many things that had to have been going on inside him, I can forgive the fact that he wasn't able to give Lorelai 110% of his attention as usual. And whenever he asked her if she was ok with how things were going the least she could have done is be honest. with him, otherwise I have no sympathy for her sad faces. Luke can't change how things are if Lorelai lets him believe everything is fine.

I don't defend the lying about April. Can't defend it. But that was so off the charts OCC characterization that I still can't believe ASP went there.

22 minutes ago, shron17 said:

I'm one of very few who actually feel that Luke had the right to build a relationship with his daughter in whatever way was comfortable and worked for him.  In fact, I think he had an obligation to April and himself to be authentic in their new relationship.  It's great that Lorelai already knew so much about raising Rory, but in my opinion, it was far more important that Luke find his own way as he learned to be a dad to April.  And if he had included Lorelai more, I'm not sure she could have given him the space he needed.  

Absolutely this. Luke had the right to find his 'dad' mode himself. As he should because anything else (like having his hand held during the process) would have been dishonest to both himself and April. Besides Lorelai would have steamrollered all over him had he not.

[shron17]

16 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

Lorelai isn't allowed to meet April or have an input, but Luke has throughout the years had an input with Rory and acted completely inappropriate in certain situations 

These are two completely different situations.  Lorelai has known Rory since she was born; Luke found out about April less than a year ago and has been seeing her regularly for only a few months.  No comparison, in my opinion.

Edited September 13, 2016 by shron17

[JaggedLilPill]

Never mind.

Edited September 13, 2016 by JaggedLilPill
no longer feel like belaboring the topic

[hippielamb]

On 9/12/2016 at 0:01 PM, CalamityBoPeep said:

Lorelai's claim that April needs to fit around their lives, is looking more and more selfish by the minute. Never would she have allowed any man to pull that card about Rory.

I think the difference is the importance or roles of mothers versus fathers in a child's life. Lorelai is used to fathers being secondary. This isn't just about Christopher but also Richard bring distant most of her childhood and deferring to Emily about home and family matters. I would be willing to bet that most of the fathers Lorelai knew in her childhood were similar. There's been discussion on how men in this show are side characters while the mother/child relationships are the focus. Since this show is told from Lorelai's perspective, she probably views that as the way it is supposed to be. That's my longwinded way of saying Luke's version of fathering and taking an active role in his daughter's life is foreign to her.

5 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Another thing that ticks me off about Lorelai was how she folded like a cheap suit when she went to confront Anna. If it was so easy and obvious for Luke to assert himself and let Lorelai into his and April's life, than why did Lorelai basically concede all points to Anna? It's not like Lorelai is some wallflower or she can't argue for herself. I think it's because Anna so clearly had a strangle-hold on April to the point that Luke basically had to comply with her rules and suck up to have access to her kids, right up until Luke would sue for his paternal rights and force Anna to be reasonable. Lorelai could see that. Lorelai could see that which is why she backed off the case. She just expected Luke to somewhat wave a wand and fix it by himself- partly through marrying Lorelai because Lorelai argued that they could both be in April's lives if they were married because Anna said so. But that's a piss poor reason to get married- get hitched because the crazy lady said that it's the only way for a reasonable custody arrangement and see how the crazy lady responds then. 

I think Lorelai didn't force the issue because Anna is April's mother. As a fellow single parent she would have to accept Anna's rules even if she didn't agree with them.

 

2 hours ago, shron17 said:

Bottom line, Lorelai never should have gone to Anna on her own.  She should have gone to Luke and said, "Okay, you involved me with the party.  I am involved now and need to meet Anna."  By going behind his back she disregarded any authority Luke had over his daughter and most likely compromised Anna's opinion of Luke.  And made herself vulnerable to Anna's whims.  

I agree. I can usually defend Lorelai on most things but that's the mother of Luke's child. She was out of line. Period. Just like Luke was out of line arguing with Chris about Rory at the vow renewal. As Anna would say, that's not cool. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

The choice to go over was ultimately Lorelai's but Chris was a slimeball to go in for the sex when Lorelai was clearly in pain and vulnerable.

Christopher and Lorelai seemed to think a quick one was the answer to any problem.  When Straub verbally attacked them, their solution was to run to the balcony and have sex.  Sixteen year old mentality that never matured.

[shron17]

4 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I agree. I can usually defend Lorelai on most things but that's the mother of Luke's child. She was out of line. Period. Just like Luke was out of line arguing with Chris about Rory at the vow renewal. As Anna would say, that's not cool.

I can agree with all of this, except I cut Luke more slack for arguing with Chris about Rory.  While Luke should have kept his mouth shut, it was Chris who sat at their table and then followed Lorelai and Luke on his own.  Also, Luke and Chris had met and Chris was being a jerk throughout the reception.  Not really justified, but more understandable in my opinion.

Edited September 13, 2016 by shron17

[Smad]

5 hours ago, shron17 said:

I can agree with all of this, except I cut Luke more slack for arguing with Chris about Rory.  While Luke should have kept his mouth shut, it was Chris who sat at their table and then followed Lorelai and Luke on his own.  Also, Luke and Chris had met and Chris was being a jerk throughout the reception.  Not really justified, but more understandable in my opinion.

IMO Luke defending his place in Rory's life was really not the way to go. It wasn't his place to do that. However asking the million dollar question was ok with me. Because frankly anyone who cared about Rory should have been asking deadbeat where the hell he was during all the important moments in Rory's life. Maybe it's just me projecting but if I were in Rory's and Lorelai's life, whenever I met this guy I would be in his face about that.

[Viqutorious]

If you ever have stepchildren you will understand that you just shut up.

[Melancholy]

5 hours ago, Smad said:

IMO Luke defending his place in Rory's life was really not the way to go. It wasn't his place to do that. However asking the million dollar question was ok with me. Because frankly anyone who cared about Rory should have been asking deadbeat where the hell he was during all the important moments in Rory's life. Maybe it's just me projecting but if I were in Rory's and Lorelai's life, whenever I met this guy I would be in his face about that.

Yes, I'm totally with Luke in calling out Chris. It's not like Luke said this stuff in front of Rory. The door was already closed on her and Logan. If Luke derided Chris in front of Rory, I'd feel differently. But why does Chris get this status where he doesn't have to hear some home truths about how he's never there for his own kid...like in the name of good parenting? 

My only problem with Luke in Wedding Bell Blues was my problem with Chris- it wasn't both of their places to get up in Rory's and Logan's faces for making out. Lorelai also overreacted with the AT YOUR GRANDPARENT'S VOW RENEWAL. RORY, I SWEAR but it was more bearable without macho violent posing and Lorelai actually has legit power to discipline Rory that both Chris and Luke don't. 

[hippielamb]

21 hours ago, shron17 said:

I can agree with all of this, except I cut Luke more slack for arguing with Chris about Rory.  While Luke should have kept his mouth shut, it was Chris who sat at their table and then followed Lorelai and Luke on his own.  Also, Luke and Chris had met and Chris was being a jerk throughout the reception.  Not really justified, but more understandable in my opinion.

It's a pet peeve of mine when someone is dating a single parent and they give their unsolicited opinion to the other parent about family matters. It's none of their business. Period. End of story. I have met guys like that and it always drove me crazy. I think it is so disrespectful to insert your opinion about someone else's family relationships.

It's none of Luke or anyone else's business what role Christopher has in Rory's life. That's between him, Rory, and Lorelai. It's also none of Lorelai's business to go to Anna without Luke's knowledge or permission to talk about what relationship she will have with his daughter. If Anna doesn't want Lorelai in her daughter's life, then that's between her and Luke to hash out, not Lorelai.

10 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Yes, I'm totally with Luke in calling out Chris. It's not like Luke said this stuff in front of Rory. The door was already closed on her and Logan. If Luke derided Chris in front of Rory, I'd feel differently. But why does Chris get this status where he doesn't have to hear some home truths about how he's never there for his own kid...like in the name of good parenting? 

My only problem with Luke in Wedding Bell Blues was my problem with Chris- it wasn't both of their places to get up in Rory's and Logan's faces for making out. Lorelai also overreacted with the AT YOUR GRANDPARENT'S VOW RENEWAL. RORY, I SWEAR but it was more bearable without macho violent posing and Lorelai actually has legit power to discipline Rory that both Chris and Luke don't. 

It's not his place to do so. It should come from Lorelai or Rory only. Luke was dating Lorelai, what was going on with her daughter was none of his damn business. Lorelai tries to shut him down but he didn't listen to Rory's parent. Rubbish like this makes my blood boil.

Agreed. Lorelai is her sole parent and the only one who has a right to say anything. I love that later she reassures Rory and tells her not to worry about. 

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

It's not his place to do so. It should come from Lorelai or Rory only. Luke was dating Lorelai, what was going on with her daughter was none of his damn business. Lorelai tries to shut him down but he didn't listen to Rory's parent. Rubbish like this makes my blood boil.

Agreed. Lorelai is her sole parent and the only one who has a right to say anything. I love that later she reassures Rory and tells her not to worry about. 

No, I think it's everyone's place to call out deadbeat parents. Being a deadbeat parent is so bad that society should condemn it. It's part of keeping child-neglect as a social taboo. Christopher doesn't get called out enough by the world. Fair that Lorelai would have the power to shut-down the call-out as Rory's real parent, but I kind of don't think that Luke was hearing her mid-rant. 

[Lady Calypso]

I don't have any experience in the parenting matter, being a young adult myself, so I definitely can't comment much on the whole significant other of a single parent situation. I guess I can toss some sort of personal opinion, though, with the vow renewal freakout was definitely just played for drama as well as laughs (the Christopher/Luke coming in one after another to freak out), so I don't think they really thought through what the best decision would be. I think they also wanted to display a biological vs surrogate parent debate to initiate the explosion with the adults at the end of the episode, so that Christopher could spill about Emily's involvement in Lorelai's love life. 

Personally, Luke's opinion about parenting should come second to Lorelai, as she is the only active parent in Rory's life. For me, I feel like Christopher isn't as involved as he should be, and although his opinion on parenting should be important, it's tough to back him up when he's been so inactive in raising Rory and only comes by to see her a couple of times a year. It really raises the question about how important biological family is if they're never or hardly there for their child. If they continue to pop in and out of their own child's life for twenty years, should they really have a major say in major or even minor parenting decisions? 

I guess I look at my own life. I'm adopted so obviously I have my adoptive parents and I also have my biological parents somewhere out there. If they came back into my life, I would definitely not want them to try to be a parent now because they were so inactive in my life. In some cases, biological shouldn't always trump surrogate/adoptive parents. It all depends on the situation. But more importantly, it all depends on the child and their decision on who they want to listen to. Christopher's the biological father, but how often is he around for Rory? How often was he trusted to make good on his visits and his promises? 

That shouldn't fully give him the right to throw the biological factor in Luke's face either. He's been part of Rory's life much more than Christopher ever has. The thing is that Lorelai and Luke were only dating in season 5, so his opinion can be counted, but not taken precedent over Lorelai's. At the end of the day, it's her and Rory's decision on who to listen to. Luke may have known Rory for many, many years, but he just started dating Lorelai at this point. However, I think by this season (season six), I'd say that he could have more say in Rory's life because of Luke being Lorelai's fiance. But she's also a fully grown adult at this point, so really, her decisions should be her. 

So really, for me, it's Lorelai >>>>> Christopher/Luke or Luke/Christopher.

As for the Luke/Lorelai/Anna/April situation (bringing it back to season six!), it's definitely a trickier situation because of Luke being a new father. It should really be his decision, not Lorelai's. He's trying to figure it out as best as he can so Lorelai's opinion has to come second to his. However, all he really had to do was talk to Lorelai and balance the situation better than he did. Instead, it felt like maybe he shut her out and almost built a wall between both of his lives until he realized that he couldn't. I think by separating April and Lorelai, and by not figuring out the situation earlier, it caused more problems. So it's why I believe both Lorelai and Luke were at fault in this entire season. 

[elang4]

Says a lot when Rory was only bothered by Luke's reaction though at the Vow Renewal. She didn't even mention her dad, she was just worried about Luke.

[Viqutorious]

I am a stepmom and my husband is a stepdad. Trust me, unless there is abuse involved you NEVER speak poorly of the parent in front of children nor do you discuss parenting to the bio parent that is not your spouse. (I hated that scene, but it is just TV.)

parenting 101.

Edited September 14, 2016 by CheeseBurgh

[hippielamb]

On 9/14/2016 at 6:15 PM, Melancholy said:

No, I think it's everyone's place to call out deadbeat parents. Being a deadbeat parent is so bad that society should condemn it. It's part of keeping child-neglect as a social taboo. Christopher doesn't get called out enough by the world. Fair that Lorelai would have the power to shut-down the call-out as Rory's real parent, but I kind of don't think that Luke was hearing her mid-rant.  

It just seems disrespectful to me, the potential of insulting a friend would be too great. I can't imagine ever sticking my nose into someone else's family matters. At the end of the day, it's up to Lorelai and Rory to call Chris out if they have a problem with something he says or does. It does no good for their family relationship to bring up something he missed years ago. Chris knows he missed it. He doesn't need Lorelai's boyfriend to shove it in his face. Personally, I think Rory did fine just having Lorelai as a parent. She's hardly neglected, one could say she was overly cared for.

23 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

I am a stepmom and my husband is a stepdad. Trust me, unless there is abuse involved you NEVER speak poorly of the parent in front of children nor do you discuss parenting to the bio parent that is not your spouse. (I hated that scene, but it is just TV.)

parenting 101.

Absolutely. I have personal experience with this as well. When I was single, it would drive me crazy if anyone thought they had a right to criticize the father of my children. And I would tell them so, in much more colourful language.

[hippielamb]

Anyway, back to depressing season 6.

I'm Ok, You're Ok

Logan is a good talker/persuader, he should be in sales. I do side with him during this tiff with Rory, only because they were apart for at least a couple of weeks and Rory just expected he would wait for her. I know she's spoiled but that's taking it too far. Rory's passive aggressiveness with Logan is straight out of the Emily Gilmore handbook.

I laughed at Rory and Michel having a stare-off over the post its. Also devious Rory spying on her mother's clone, I mean Anna. I like that Rory has her mom's back regarding the situation with Luke and April.

It feels weird for Rory to still be critical of her grandparents. She's more in line with how Lorelai sees them. While I like that she's not so naive about the elder Gilmores and their motives, they didn't really do anything in this episode for her reactions. I get why Lorelai acts this way but not Rory. I thought it was nice that they came to visit. They're at least trying to mend the relationship.

Lol at both of the girls saying they are fine in their romantic relationships when clearly they are not.

The Real Paul Anka

Lorelai's dream with the real Paul Anka/dog Paul Anka was the best. I wish we got more than one phone scene with Lorelai and Rory. The show is less enjoyable to me when they have separate storylines.

Devious Rory continues! This time planning on hooking up with Jess just to get back at Logan. The problem with this is Logan didn't sleep around to hurt her but to make himself feel better. I like her admitting that she loves him despite her pain.

Lorelai's passive aggressiveness with Luke's bag is funny. I also liked her scenes with Lane and the wedding dress.

[FictionLover]

During the confrontation with Luke and Chris during WBB I always thought Luke was only defending himself because Chris was telling him he had no business being there. I had no problem under the circumstances with Luke saying what he did. 

[TimetravellingBW]

11 hours ago, FictionLover said:

During the confrontation with Luke and Chris during WBB I always thought Luke was only defending himself because Chris was telling him he had no business being there. I had no problem under the circumstances with Luke saying what he did. 

Exactly. Chris started that fight: He turned up, declared that he belonged with Luke's girlfriend and bragged that he deserved to be in Lorelai and Rory's lives more than Luke.  In those circumstances Luke firing back with "right, but you haven't actually been there for them...like ever" felt earned. Yes in real life it's more complex, but in Gilmore-land I'd have been thrilled if Lorelai and Rory chipped in with "Well, we do see Luke every day while a guarantee from you is at best a 60/40 chance." Luke pushing back - with a perfectly truthful response - felt justified. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[andromeda331]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 4:11 AM, TimetravellingBW said:

Exactly. Chris started that fight: He turned up, declared that he belonged with Luke's girlfriend and bragged that he deserved to be in Lorelai and Rory's lives more than Luke.  In those circumstances Luke firing back with "right, but you haven't actually been there for them...like ever" felt earned. Yes in real life it's more complex, but in Gilmore-land I'd have been thrilled if Lorelai and Rory chipped in with "Well, we do see Luke every day while a guarantee from you is at best a 60/40 chance." Luke pushing back - with a perfectly truthful response - felt justified. 

Oh,  that would have made the scene even better! I loved Luke firing back about where Chris was and specifically bringing up times when he was gone. But having Lorelai and Rory adding that part would have been great. I love any and all times when Chris gets called out on being a crappy parent he is. 

[andromeda331]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 4:15 PM, Melancholy said:

No, I think it's everyone's place to call out deadbeat parents. Being a deadbeat parent is so bad that society should condemn it. It's part of keeping child-neglect as a social taboo. Christopher doesn't get called out enough by the world. Fair that Lorelai would have the power to shut-down the call-out as Rory's real parent, but I kind of don't think that Luke was hearing her mid-rant. 

This yes especially the bolded part! God, I really agree with that. I hate deadbeats. I know far too many single parents struggling to taking care of and support their kids while the dipshit deadbeat dad or mom off doing what ever the hell they want. Their kids hurt because their parent bailed or pulled a Christopher only shows up every once in awhile when they feel like for a few days making them feel happy and special before disappearing for months or years ago. I've had friends sobbing wondering why their dad doesn't want to come and see them, wondering if they did something wrong or if there's something wrong with them. I've even had deadbeat parents' at work complaining about their ex taking them to court because they haven't paid child support in years, as if they have any right to be upset. I had one co-worker pissed because he got thrown in jail for not paying, by both of his exs, two kids by two different women and he hadn't been paying a cent.

[hippielamb]

Sidekick

Really enjoyed this episode, it's more lighthearted than we have seen this season. Running in the street was funny, as was the wedding preparations. I liked the Mrs Kim plotline, and the touching scene between her and Lane after the wedding.

Lorelai looked great at the wedding. It's interesting that she wants to get drunk and Chris her former drinking buddy puts the brakes on, a little hint that he has matured in ways she has not. It's a little sad to see Christopher's and Rory's faces as they hear Lorelai's toast and realize how hurt she is. Whenever I watch this I always feel bad for Chris. He's wanted to marry her forever and he has to hear Lorelai be upset over a guy who won't marry her.

Super Cool Party People

Sookie's recap of Lorelai's drunken escapades was funny. So was their conversation about the lip smackers. It doesn't seem like we've had too many scenes of the two of them being friends and engaging in their mutual silliness lately.

Rory's attitude with Mitchum was out of line. She's Miss Bossypants with everyone just because they aren't acting like she expects them to. Same with Colin and Finn. All they do is party and joke around, yet she expects them to be serious.

April and Lorelai bonding at the party was sweet.

Anna's hissy fit with Luke feels more like jealousy. Either she thought getting back together with Luke was an option or she is jealous that another cool mom type was hanging out with her daughter. Her conversation with Lorelai was a lot more reasonable and made a lot of sense.

Driving Miss Gilmore

Love this episode. Emily and Lorelai on a mini road trip is great. I wish we had more of these characters (and fab actresses) alone for extended periods. I think the last time was the spa episode and that was ages ago.

Emily's drama queen act was hilarious, as was her talking about Chris, and Lorelai's reactions to it. Emily showed real insight into what her daughter would want in choosing the house and I love that we see her give Lorelai some small comfort.

Rory's reactions about Mitchum are so spoiled. He did give her an internship, now she's acting like he's the devil or something. Sometimes I love her and sometimes she makes me want to yell. Not feeling the Rory love in these last two episodes.

TJ is back to being the sweet guy we met back in season 4. Liz tells him to leave so he does, he respects her choice. I like Liz's scenes in this episode too. Luke's anger is way overplayed but it's on par for the character. His advice to TJ while his relationship is about to implode shows how oblivious he is.

Sookie and Jackson's attitude about the pot is ridiculous. It's pot, not heroin. I guess since they became parents, they are more conservative. Sookie used to smoke pot, and while it's not implicit, I always thought Jackson was a hippie farmer, especially in season 1 with the tie dyed shirt and overalls.