S02.E07: Faith

[Dust Bunny]

After sleeping on it and a third watch, the reunion scene didn’t bother me quite as much, but I still think it was – for me – one of the weaker adaptations of the book. Compared to the book garden scene, it felt thin to me – again, no doubt because of how I built it up in my head. (I’m going to have to minimize expectations for Voyager, so that doesn’t happen again. I’ll just imagine a really crappy reunion in the print shop and then the show will blow me away. Kind of like when everyone said the Mona Lisa was small. So I imagined it really small, and then I wasn’t disappointed. I do that with artwork all the time now. Learned that the hard way with the Sistine Chapel.) I had imagined more pleading in Jamie’s voice, and I think the setting and blocking of the big room took away the need for them to turn to each other than was required in the smaller enclosed space of the garden. So much of this first-half of the season has been in large rooms or open gardens; I looked forward to the contrast of the tight space the book describes. Then there’s Jamie even slightly insinuating that Claire was at fault. I know the historical context angle, but still, not my favorite Toni Graphia dialogue or directed scene. And I agree with a bunch of you about the beard being less-than-fantastic. Hopefully, the Ardsmuir beard will be an improvement on the Bastille beard.

37 minutes ago, chocolatetruffle said:

The scene in Fergus' room was beautiful and little Ramon was fantastic telling the story of what happened.  I totally agree with everything NoDorothyParker said above that we didn't need see BJR raping Fergus.  They should have cut the visual when BJR said "You'll do" and picked it up when Jamie heard Fergus scream. Our imagination is much more powerful when things remain unseen, especially since the actor was so moving in his description of what was done to him.  Stupid, stupid choice by the editors/director especially the "thrusting" which gross, OTT and took me right out of the story and I REALLY resent being taken out of the story at that moment.  

Yup, that was another moment that took me out of it. As great as this episode was, I don't think it was flawless. I wish I felt it was.

Having intentionally recognized all that, I’m relatively at peace with that now. And now I can appreciate the rest of the episode on its own, without it being unnecessarily weighed down by a couple parts I didn’t love.

The rest of it was top shelf. I get the sense that when the cast was doing the table read, they all felt the heavy weight of this episode and brought immense and beautiful gravitas to their scenes. I don’t know if it was because it was the Paris’ characters last episode, but those actors owned what was left in their roles. You could almost see them immersing themselves in each moment, knowing that it’s soon to end. Seriously, is there a casting award? There should be some industry recognition for consistently finding such perfect fits for even the smallest of roles.

To everything that you guys have written about Cait: agreed.

I would have loved to be at that table reading and watch everyone watch her. (I wish full table readings were DVD extras, but I’m sure there needs to be some safe space with that, to allow the actors to engage the material.)

Another reason that occurred to me about the spoon is that it’s a personal way of doing the tradition and ritual of leaving a stone at a grave to mark each time you visit and remember. It’d be great if next season Mother Hildegarde shows Jamie and Claire the spoon. I doubt it could be out in the cemetery for  20 years, but I hope there’s some reference made to it.

I also would like to see Jamie consoling Fergus in the next episode. I don't remember that in the book, and I always felt that was a glaring omission. It may have been due to Book!Fergus being a child prostitute and having had experience with such things. Still, I hope the show corrects that.

6 episodes left. I wonder how many more will have Boston interludes. I’d like to see a couple more scenes with Claire as a mom to a young Bree.

I’m really looking forward to 209 “Je Suis Prest”. I’m ready to see Jamie become a leader of men.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[Summer]

18 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

  I was also worried about 14-year-old Romann having to play that scene but I suspect that he was only in the room to film the struggle (clothes on) and was not present when they filmed Jack thrusting so I applaud them for walking that fine line.  They showed enough and (in my opinion) not too much.

Agreed!!  Kudos to RDM and whomever decided that scene.  Also, I loved that he called out for Jamie and loved the look on Jamies face when he burst into the room, for a split second is confused and then the horror on his face when he realizes whats happening and then complete an utter rage.  

 

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm not a huge Raymond fan book or show because I don't really care for mysterious characters being mysterious that never really offer any payoff, so this is about what I expected.  I also don't care all that much for the whole star chamber thing in the books because it feels like such a convoluted and anticlimactic end to the Comte, who seemed even oddly more out of place here because the show has barely remembered to mention that he was a reputed weirdo dabbling in the black arts.  I did get a tremendous kick out of Claire's "Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ" when she realized what she had walked into and that she was going to have to make it up as she went along and do it convincingly if she didn't want them all to end up dead.  

 

You said exactly what I was going to say on all points, Nodorothyparker.   Only to add I, too, just loved the reappearance of JHRC.  I didn't expect it and thought the timing with the eye roll was awesome.  

I chuckled a bit at the end of the Claire and Louis "payment" scene.  Loved the look on Claire's face and when she sat up and smoothed her gown.  Grabbing the orange was the ultimate "mic drop" moment for me.  

I am really going to miss St. Germaine, Louise and King Louis.  I loved each and every time any of them was on the screen.  

::whispering:: I, too, was underwhelmed by the reunion scene between Jamie and Claire at the end.  And that beard was just awful.  ::whispering quieter:: I thought the look on Jamie's face when Claire said take me back to Scotland where he opened his mouth was kind of goofy.  I'm sure he was trying to convey disbelief, shock, happiness....but yeah, no.  

Back to full voice :) I haven't been feeling this season so far, so hopefully once they head back to Scotland I'll be more engaged.  

Edited May 22, 2016 by Summer

[SoTheresThat]

50 minutes ago, Dust Bunny said:

After sleeping on it and a third watch, the reunion scene didn’t bother me quite as much, but I still think it was – for me – one of the weaker adaptations of the book. Compared to the book garden scene, it felt thin to me – again, no doubt because of how I built it up in my head. (I’m going to have to minimize expectations for Voyager, so that doesn’t happen again. I’ll just imagine a really crappy reunion in the print shop and then the show will blow me away. Kind of like when everyone said the Mona Lisa was small. So I imagined it really small, and then I wasn’t disappointed. I do that with artwork all the time now. Learned that the hard way with the Sistine Chapel.) I had imagined more pleading in Jamie’s voice, and I think the setting and blocking of the big room took away the need for them to turn to each other than was required in the smaller enclosed space of the garden. So much of this first-half of the season has been in large rooms or open gardens; I looked forward to the contrast of the tight space the book describes. Then there’s Jamie even slightly insinuating that Claire was at fault. I know the historical context angle, but still, not my favorite Toni Graphia dialogue or directed scene. And I agree with a bunch of you about the beard being less-than-fantastic. Hopefully, the Ardsmuir beard will be an improvement on the Bastille beard.

[snip]

Oh god, I'd forgotten we have another beard to come.  This one was so, so bad.  I love the poster upthread who called it a merkin.  Made me snort laugh.

I hate to hear of anyone losing a job, but hopefully we'll have a new hair/beard person on the crew for the Ardsmuir beard.

[WatchrTina]

Quote

I hate to hear of anyone losing a job, but hopefully we'll have a new hair/beard person on the crew for the Ardsmuir beard.

I'll bet they get around that by permitting Jamie to wash and shave before each dinner with Lord John -- under the strict observation of an armed guard while the razor is in his hand.  Those meetings and meals are a special accommodation accorded to him due to his rank so it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Lord John (and even Harry Quarry before him) would allow Jamie to clean up before sitting down to dinner with him.

Edited May 22, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Archery]

Of course the beard was awful.  No comb, no mirror in prison, so the beard grows in patchy.  May not have looked nice, but it would have been accurate.  

And while I was whispering, "Touch her!" "Touch him!" all through that reunion scene, it made it so much more poignant that neither was ready or able to cross that gulf yet.

[AheadofStraight]

This article describes a scene that was cut. Hope we get it on the DVDs. 

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2016-05-22/outlanders-diana-gabaldon-reveals-the-one-emotional-scene-that-didnt-make-the-cut-in-faith?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Clawdette]

There was so little Jamie in this episode so they shouldn't haven't cut a single of his utterances!

[toolazy]

5 hours ago, peacefrog said:

 

Star chamber scene blew me away, Claire and Comte so beautiful and were only upstaged by the set. Stanley was so good, his portrayal of fear, anger and even bravery were brilliant! I hope the show goes off books and has him dropping in on Claire to annoy her in future seasons.They never set up in the show that Raymond is a TT do they?

 

Not overtly but as Raymond is leaving the hospital he tells Claire that they will meet again and he said it with some certainty, as though they already had or would in the future or something.  

3 hours ago, chocolatetruffle said:

 

Although the episode was about the loss of Claire's first child, I realized that when Claire told Mother H. that she had forgiven Jamie because he was the "father of her child" she was talking about FERGUS!  He needed Jamie. He was blaming himself because Jamie was locked up.  Claire put aside her anger for wee Fergus' needs.  Which brings me too...

No, that was not about Fergus.  She was speaking of Faith, without a doubt. 

[morgan]

The podcast with Ron and Toni is already up and it was very interesting if anyone is interested.  Apparently Cait improvised taking the orange as she was leaving and that made me lol as much as when I first saw it.

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, peacefrog said:

Lol I think the only reason they would think that is Geillis in the show is a redhead instead of blond.

That and lack of imagination.

Edited May 22, 2016 by taurusrose

[Haleth]

I wish someone would pose the question in the Ask the Outlanders thread so we could give them an "oh, hell, no!"  

[areca]

Quote

That being said, my sister nudged me when we were watching this scene, whispering "How in the earth is Lord John supposed to fall head over heels for Jamie, with him having THAT on his face?" I know, shallow much ;-)

I believe the book specifically indicates he is allowed to bathe and shower once a week before their dinners.

[Dust Bunny]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I wish someone would pose the question in the Ask the Outlanders thread so we could give them an "oh, hell, no!"  

I just did a brief response on there that Geillis is NOT the girl, but riverheightsnancy asked a couple follow-ups: "They have met in the future though?  How old is Gellis supposed to be?" Can someone else take that? I'm not sure how to explain all that, and I can't remember Gellis' age.

ETA: Thanks, you guys.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[lianau]

3 hours ago, taurusrose said:

That and lack of imagination.

To be honest , I think the Bree as Geilis theory shows great imagination :)

[peacefrog]

5 minutes ago, lianau said:

To be honest , I think the Bree as Geilis theory shows great imagination :)

I do to! It's a shame that there really isn't a chance to speculate over here. I miss it because I'm usually unspoiled on most shows. I loved the Lost days and the wild speculation then. 

To be honest the timeline does work for Geillis to be Bree.

[morgan]

Oh the Lost days.  I miss that.   I don't know if I could handle a show like that again, but what a ride!  The weekly analysis and speculation was unlike anything I've ever experienced before or since.

With Outlander had I not been a book reader prior, I would have spent the hiatus in the first season devouring the books.  I almost admire the restraint of the non book readers, although mostly I want to scream about all they are missing out on.  Lol.  I agree, the Bree = Geillis shows great imagination.  I'm hoping they can continue unscathed unless they want to know and head to the threads to find out.  

Edited May 23, 2016 by morgan

[Nidratime]

Since Roger is already a part of Jamie's family through Dougal and GeilIis' relationship, I would have thought it almost incestuous to have Geillis hooking up with her own great (multiple) grandson later on. How does that work? Wow!

[morgan]

Have you read all of the books?  I don't think that is much of a problem with Geillis.  

[Nidratime]

No I only read through book four. I couldn't get past the 100 page single day in the fifith book.

[morgan]

Yeah that was very long!  The first time I read it I seriously didn't think it would ever end.  

[lianau]

I think book 5 is much more enjoyable on a re read . You know the story and are no too anxious to find out what's going to happen to those characters . 

[Nidratime]

 I would order an audiotape of book 5 if I wasn't worried that that I can't remember all the details of book 3 and 4. I wish I could but I want to re-read -- in some way -- book 3 and 4.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, lianau said:

To be honest , I think the Bree as Geilis theory shows great imagination :)

Different strokes for different folks. To me it just seems too contrived.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

On Outlander, Claire Raises Heaven And Hell To Get Jamie Back

Claire must summon every last ounce of strength to survive a particularly traumatic episode.

[WatchrTina]

Quote

WTF kind of snake was that?  Did I see horns on its snout?

I'm quoting myself because the inimitable Connie Verzak answered my question in her photo recap of the episode for Scotland now.  It's a West African Gaboon viper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitis_gabonica_rhinoceros.  And yes, it has horns on it's nose.

I'll put the link to the photo recap in the media thread if it's not there already.

Edited May 25, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Dust Bunny]

I just read through the script notes and found an explanation for one of my least favorite changes - Jamie even remotely blaming Claire.

Toni Graphia's own words:

Quote

When I read these chapters, I found myself angry at Claire—I saw it as her fault. She was so angry at Jamie, it was important for her to come to this realization. Usually, when someone is that mad at another person, it's because inside there's a part of them that is actually mad at his or herself. Sometimes this anger is so large and so ferocious that if the person had to face it, it would destroy them. So they turn that anger outward. But the only way to ultimately survive that anger is to face it and admit your role in what's behind it. I wanted Claire to finally cop to her part in this—something that Jamie was not expecting her to do. 

Again, regarding this episode's writing and directing choices: WOW. I'm sort of speechless on how awful that is.

I'm just going to pretend the reunion scene happened like it did in the book. And hope she doesn't write the reunion scene in season 3.

[CatMack]

I have not been impressed by any of Toni Graphia's interviews about this episode.  The greater access to the BTS parts of television making is such a double edged sword for me because it can be so fun to get a look into the creative process and get to interact with the creative team and actors, but on the other hand I'm losing count of the number of writers and directors I've respected less and less the more I hear them talk about their work.  Sometimes it really is best to let it stand on it's own.  This was an overall great episode with a few choices that I disagreed with, which probably wouldn't have marred my enjoyment overall nearly as much if I hadn't read the BTS stuff.  Hearing her talk about Fergus' rape is even worse.  She apparently has a very low opinion of her audience and their ability to feel empathy without being beaten over the head with graphic violence.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 minutes ago, Dust Bunny said:

I just read through the script notes and found an explanation for one of my least favorite changes - Jamie even remotely blaming Claire.

Toni Graphia's own words:

Again, regarding this episode's writing and directing choices: WOW. I'm sort of speechless on how awful that is.

I'm just going to pretend the reunion scene happened like it did in the book. And hope she doesn't write the reunion scene in season 3.

 

Wow. And here I was, thinking Jamie's words of forgiveness, was about Claire blaming him for breaking his promise, assuming he just did it on a whim; and that it had nothing to do with losing Faith.

[lottiedottie]

9 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

On Outlander, Claire Raises Heaven And Hell To Get Jamie Back

Claire must summon every last ounce of strength to survive a particularly traumatic episode.

I'm not sure I agree with the recapper characterizing Claire's thing with the king as rape. She knowingly and willingly went into this situation expecting that sex would be payment. She choose to take this risk to free her husband, and give up her "virtue" (as she put it to Mother what's-her-name).

[CatMack]

Coerced consent is still rape.  Claire would never have consented if she felt she had any other choice.  Jamie in episode compares Claire giving herself to the King to his "consent" to stay with Jack Randall.  There's a reason those two actions were paralleled.  Claire's violation being less violent doesn't make it less of a violation.  Even Diana Gabaldon, she of the questionable rape usage problem, apparently considered her actions with the King rape, or at least a traumatic event of some kind.  It takes several books but after Claire's later assault she has a PTSD reaction to the smell of roses (because of the oil he uses as lube in the book) and flashes back to her moment with the King and feels ill about it.  I found Claire's "joke" about lying back and thinking of England to be in very poor taste.

[bjt]

Can I just say that I wish I had watched this episode with an unspoiled viewer because I would love to see someone’s reaction when they enter the star chamber.  The masked guards, the “starlight” ceiling, M. Forez – it is all such a magnificent WTF moment.

My husband (a non book reader) asked if he had a red room of pain too.

Edited May 24, 2016 by bjt

[nachomama]

I did think it was very sad but when Claire shouted she wanted her baby back. I did sing "I want my baby back, baby back, baby back ribs...barbecue sauce" 

[SoTheresThat]

11 hours ago, CatMack said:

Coerced consent is still rape.  Claire would never have consented if she felt she had any other choice.  Jamie in episode compares Claire giving herself to the King to his "consent" to stay with Jack Randall.  There's a reason those two actions were paralleled.  Claire's violation being less violent doesn't make it less of a violation.  Even Diana Gabaldon, she of the questionable rape usage problem, apparently considered her actions with the King rape, or at least a traumatic event of some kind.  It takes several books but after Claire's later assault she has a PTSD reaction to the smell of roses (because of the oil he uses as lube in the book) and flashes back to her moment with the King and feels ill about it.  I found Claire's "joke" about lying back and thinking of England to be in very poor taste.

I didn't like the think of England thing either. 

Also really didn't like the taking the orange thing.  I figured as soon as I saw the scene that it was improvised by the actor.  It was too playful and light-hearted considering the circumstances.  Claire's supposed to be upset about Jamie dueling even though he promised to wait, Jamie being in the Bastille, Faith's death, Fergus' rape, the events in the star chamber and the violation by Louis.  It just didn't fit the tone of the episode.  I wish the director wouldn't have left it in.

Edited May 24, 2016 by SugareeMagnolia

[WatchrTina]

Quote

I'm just going to pretend the reunion scene happened like it did in the book.

Ooooh, I'm not.  I re-read that scene last night and hated it all over again.  That reunion is one of my least favorite parts of the series because while Jamie is half sick with grief at the death of his child and what Claire went through, he's also pissed-off and judgmental because he assumes she had to sleep with the King to set him free. Book!Jamie really pisses me off in that scene.  Claire -- with all the depression and grief she's dealing with -- actually has to summon up the presence of mind to lie to Jamie and tell him that she "paid" for his release only by doing the "La Dame Blanche" gig.  (This is of course revealed to be a lie later on during that awful, torment-with-nettles-while-sunbathing-naked scene.)  I prefer the TV version -- no lie about what went down with the king (didn't these two promise not to lie to one another?) and no blaming Claire either because, as TVJamie points how, Claire's having to "give" herself to the king to save Jamie was similar to Jamie having to "give" himself to Randall to save Claire.  Furthermore in the book the reason Jamie is upset is, in part, due to his suspicion that Claire offered herself to the king, at least in part, because she knew it would hurt Jamie.  They way Book!Claire reacts to that assertion suggests that he's not entirely wrong on that point.  It's a bit of nice, complex psychological writing there but, ugh!  I don't like it.

ETA: Actually I got the nettles scene today at lunch and Claire flat-out admits to Jamie that she hoped her having to fuck the king to set him free would hurt him.  And it did.  That scene is actually amazingly complex psychologically.  I really like it -- right up until the point when he asks if he should beat her and she basically gives him permission.  Then I NOPE right out of that scene.  HATE that.

Edited May 25, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Dust Bunny]

I didn't like that part regarding the king either, in the book. That's the one part of the reunion scene show adaptation I did like. I was referring to Jamie's pleading with Claire, even as she was trying to avoid connecting with him. He kept calling "Claire", and she was backing away, instead of the cold stance waiting for him at the top of the stairs. And I really missed the line "Claire. Please. Let me give you comfort." That was very different from Graphia's focus on Jamie's forgiveness that Claire was remotely at fault. I also really missed the trapped setting the book describes. Claire seems more desperate in the book and less standoff-ish in that particular scene. But, as always, YMMV.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[Dejana]

11 hours ago, lottiedottie said:

I'm not sure I agree with the recapper characterizing Claire's thing with the king as rape. She knowingly and willingly went into this situation expecting that sex would be payment. She choose to take this risk to free her husband, and give up her "virtue" (as she put it to Mother what's-her-name).

I've seen discussion/debate between those who see it as coercion and others who view it as more transactional... If Claire hadn't been the one to arrange an audience with the king, would he have ever demanded any sort of sex from her? And to some that doesn't matter, given the terms of the offer, the power disparity between the two and lack of other viable options to free Jamie.  Of course, the story plays out as it does, but what would have happened if Claire hadn't crossed paths with the king again: would Louis have made his demands more overt? He's a king and locks people in the tower indefinitely just because, and it would have been no skin off his nose either way?

Edited May 24, 2016 by Dejana

[AheadofStraight]

1 hour ago, Dust Bunny said:

I didn't like that part regarding the king either, in the book. That's the one part of the reunion scene show adaptation I did like. I was referring to Jamie's pleading with Claire, even as she was trying to avoid connecting with him. He kept calling "Claire", and she was backing away, instead of the cold stance waiting for him at the top of the stairs. And I really missed the line "Claire. Please. Let me give you comfort." That was very different from Graphia's focus on Jamie's forgiveness that Claire was remotely at fault. I also really missed the trapped setting the book describes. Claire seems more desperate in the book and less standoff-ish in that particular scene. But, as always, YMMV.

I just saw that it was included in the script so it must've been cut. I hope we get these deleted scenes.

[Clawdette]

Toni Graphia said in Ron's podcast that the episode originally had several (I think) small scenes after the graveyard but they decided to stop there.  But, she said we will see the other scenes in this week's episode.  What do you think these entail?  Preparing to leave France, a snippet of the ship taking them back to Scotland, arriving at Lallybroch (maybe overlooking it)?

[morgan]

I was wondering about those scenes after listening to the podcast, too.  I'm guessing leaving for Scotland scenes, maybe asking Fergus to stay with them, maybe a scene between Jamie and Fergus?  Goodbyes to the French cast don't seem necessary because last week seemed like such a goodbye to France to me I don't need more.  Hmmmm...

[AheadofStraight]

They cut the final scenes from the script they put up on Starz but you can see who the characters (and places) are that would've been featured.

 

Spoiler

Ian Murray, Rabbie McNabb, Mrs. Crook. Lallybroch dinning room and parlor.

Edited May 24, 2016 by AheadofStraight

[WatchrTina]

Quote

 I really missed the line "Claire. Please. Let me give you comfort." That was very different from Graphia's focus on Jamie's forgiveness that Claire was remotely at fault. I also really missed the trapped setting the book describes.

Those are good points.  I don't think Toni Graphia intended for Jamie to "forgive" Claire for the things that she blames herself for.  I think her intention was for Jamie to say words of comfort similar to Claire's "There's nothing to forgive" line from the finale of season 1, which Jamie quotes in this scene.  Unfortunately I agree that some viewers are interpreting Jamie's words as him granting forgiveness for Claire's "sin" of trying to delay Black Jack's death, which inadvertently led to Fergus being raped and which (in Claire's mind) has some causal effect to the baby's death.  I think I know what Toni was going for but I suspect some of the clarity of the scene was lost due to excessive editing (Ron says in the podcast that the original version was MUCH longer.)

I also agree that the claustrophobic setting of the book reunion, with Jamie having to chase Claire through the garden until she inadvertently traps herself in an arbor is terrific, as is the metaphor of the gray fog that Claire has been living in as a protective shell, and all the searing pain she feels when Jamie tears that shield away and forces her to confront her feelings about what happened to Faith.

But I still absolutely hate the fact that when BookJamie is released from the Bastille he is obliged to immediately go off to Spain for the wine caper and so their reunion happens only after he's been out of prison for over a month (and three months after Faith's death), during which time he apparently ruminates equally on his grief over the death of his child and on his anger over Claire having had sex with the king.  I'm not a big fan of BookJamie during that period, nor during the subsequent "nettle" scene. 

I should probably take this to the book-vs-show thread but BookJamie's possessiveness over Claire's "virtue" is depicted as being much more 18th century than ShowJamie.  I hate BookJamie's attitude about Claire sleeping with the king but I think I secretly cheer that exact same attitude in later books when it causes him (in MOBY) to

Spoiler

hunt down and kill the last of Claire's rapists

and it makes for a verra interesting plot situation at the end of book 7 when Lord John blurts out

Spoiler

"I've had carnal knowledge of your wife."

  Some may say that TVJamie's calm acceptance of Claire's "infidelity" robs him of some of the 18th-century-warrrior mentality that characterizes BookJamie.

Edited May 25, 2016 by WatchrTina

[morgan]

Had to laugh last night, was watching Gilmore Girls and Rory tried to calm Lorelei down about something  and finally told her to, "close your eyes and think of England."

i know it's been a controversial line in, "Faith," but I loved it and honestly was the type of thing I would have said to myself had I been in Claire's position.  I thought it was very Claire.   It wouldn't have made sense to me if she had substituted Scotland as some have suggested.  It is just one of those things that I have heard in various places over the years.

Edited May 24, 2016 by morgan

[morgan]

Thanks for that, AheadofStraight.  I'm glad they cut it then and saved for this week.  I like how they ended how they did, personally.  

Edited May 24, 2016 by morgan

[Starla]

Okay I am going to admit this in a public place... before this episode I had never heard the phrase "close your eyes and think of England." When Claire said it I thought "why would she think of England and not Scotland?" LOL. When I learned what the phrase meant it made me laugh and I thought it was perfect Claire humor.

[morgan]

Starla, now that you have heard it I will bet you will notice it other places when least expected!  

[whoknowswho]

13 hours ago, morgan said:

Starla, now that you have heard it I will bet you will notice it other places when least expected!  

 I've "closed my eyes and thought of England",  a time or two in my many years.  I just couldn't remember where I had first read it, but I laughed out loud when she said it on screen. I think we all think of England, or make grocery lists, or count ceiling dots, if we live long enough. :) 

I fell in love with Outlander when the first book came out, and Mom and I voraciously read the first 3 novels. I still have them. Unfortunately, even with bifocals I can't read the book form anymore, so it's on screen, or on screen.  I never went further than Voyager, though-- I cared for modern day life a lot less than those wild Scotland days, and I've forgotten so much, watching it on TV I've rediscovered things I loved and hated about the series. 

[chocolatetruffle]

I personally said outloud, right before Claire did, "just close your eyes and think of England." So when she said it, I laughed. Because of Cait's delivery, that line was loaded w/ irony.  It wasn't "haha" funny but "ha, bloody, Ha" as in viewing oneself as the but of a very cruel joke.  Brits are very good at seeing the irony in a situation, and sometimes you just have to laugh at yourself to keep from screaming. That scene for me was a transaction and Claire knew what would be required of her before she asked for the audience w/ Louis. I gave her major props for keeping her end of the bargain (and the look of "that's it?" on Cait's face afterwards was priceless). That took a lot of strength.

Regarding Toni G.'s comments: I'm an actor so I always find it interesting to get a writer's perspective and I think there is merit to the argument that Claire takes responsibility for the choices she made (going to the duel was flat out wreckless in light of her condition). The miscarriage was definitely not her fault, but if we don't examine our choices in difficult situations, we will never grow & learn from our mistakes. It is also the quickest path to forgiving others, which ultimately helps us to let go of destructive blame & anger.  And Sam played the "forgive you" line as the most expedient way for Jamie to keep Claire from blaming herself. So I was cool with the whole scene and much preferred it to the book (although I found WatchrTina's analysis fascinating and made me like the book version a lot better than I did before!).

[jadecorleone]

On 5/23/2016 at 7:29 PM, WatchrTina said:

I'm quoting myself because the inimitable Connie Verzak answered my question in her photo recap of the episode for Scotland now.  It's a West African Gaboon viper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitis_gabonica_rhinoceros.  And yes, it has horns on it's nose.

I'll put the link to the photo recap in the media thread if it's not there already.

For me this episode is kinda mixed. Its mixed in that it was good but due to some of the content I dont know if I can stomach a rewatch. I still cant rewatch some episodes from season 1 even now. I do have to take my hat off to Cait and Stanley for their work in this episode, they more than knocked it out of the ball park.

Bonus Trivia: The west african gaboon is one of the heaviest of the pit vipers and is known for having some of the longest if not the longest fangs of any snake. Sorry, Ive been reading up alot on snakes recently.

Edited May 27, 2016 by jadecorleone
Added information

[Haleth]

I've been reading a biography of Catherine the Great and there was a paragraph regarding Louis XV's death.  He died at the ripe old age of 64 from smallpox, contracted (according to the biographer) after having sex with a barely pubescent girl who was afflicted.  It seems he never got over his desire to have sex with whomever he pleased and in the end (albeit a loooong time) it cost him his life.

[katville]

I have to admit that I liked Jamie's Halloween costume beard because at that point, I was so emotionally spent from the episode I needed a laugh.

St. Germain was outstanding in this episode -- what a fitting send off for such a son of a bitch (albeit a very handsome one). 

Balfe was brilliant. I've seen snark online about her being a former model and I don't know how anyone can doubt her acting chops after watching this.

The servants in a line made me cry. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by katville