S06.E04: Book of the Stranger

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Lancel voluntarily confessed all his sins.  It's not really unusual for religions to make a distinction between people who come freely and people who confess under various forms of compulsion; indeed, our modern justice system does that too.

As far as we know, the Faith's practices are internally consistent; this is an era where judicial torture is a thing, and many religions have at various points in history accepted such actions too.  My point is that I'd rather we not have the High Sparrow as somebody who's secretly doing all the stuff he claims to be preaching against.  The man is a zealot, and is clearly comfortable with violence to enforce his views (though this does not make him any different than the nobles, and as of right now his body count is far lower than any of the people he's fighting against), but making him a hypocrite would just feel cheap to me, like the writers don't want to let his ideas stand or fall on their own merits.`

The point to me regarding Lancel is that his crimes were a lot worse than Margaery's and Loras's yet he didn't have to atone. That strikes me as being completely unfair and imbalanced.

I maintain that even by the standards of their world that the High Septon is a massive hypocrite. He goes around saying that he's trying to bring the goodness back to the common people but freely has his men harrass, torture, and engage in other acts of thuggish violence against the people. He threatens the food supply of the people by earning the wrarth of Highgarden and his minions are only shown being mean and threatening to people. The sparrows aren't going around feeding the poor and sick or caring for the ill and wounded. The septas aren't shown doing acts of charity. It's been one long horror show that's getting scarier for everyone with the more power he gets. He's easily the most dangerous man in King's Landing at present.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Starts All The Wars

How many soldiers do you have? You're going to need more.

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, huahaha said:

I'm sure that's what will happen. It just doesn't look like a surprise side benefit of Dany's escape -- it's the whole plan.

But as far as what we've been shown onscreen, I don't think she wound up with the Khals by her intent.  It may have been how the writers achieved a goal, but we really haven't seen that it was her intent upon being taken captive.

[hacman00]

18 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Jon and Sansa together again! Yay!!!

When were they ever together?  I don't recall the two actors being on screen together in one single scene aside from episode 1 when Robert and the Lannisters arrive at Winterfell. 

[huahaha]

Just now, Tikichick said:

But as far as what we've been shown onscreen, I don't think she wound up with the Khals by her intent.  It may have been how the writers achieved a goal, but we really haven't seen that it was her intent upon being taken captive.

I didn't mean to imply that. The plan was opportunistic, clearly. I'm only saying that it was not a plan to escape and mete out justice. It was a plan to escape and amaze/scare a new army into following her.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Knuckles said:

At this point take him down any way you can...as even Cersei can see, he has no plans for a better future for the poor folks, he only sees them as useful to his scheme.

Cutting the nobles down to size is his plan for a better future for poor folks, seeing as we've spent several seasons watching the Lannisters fuck up Westeros.  How many thousands died because of Cersei's desire for power?

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, huahaha said:

I didn't mean to imply that. The plan was opportunistic, clearly. I'm only saying that it was not a plan to escape and mete out justice. It was a plan to escape and amaze/scare a new army into following her.

I'm not sure she could or would have been thinking much beyond getting free of the control and threat of the khals and how exactly it was that she could possibly do that while being unarmed before the raping began. 

[screamin]

32 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

The sparrows aren't going around feeding the poor and sick or caring for the ill and wounded. The septas aren't shown doing acts of charity.

I really do think they were. IIRC, when Cersei visited the poor, the High Sparrow was shown serving the poor soup and bread. I don't think it was something solely instituted by Margaery - when she went out to win over the poor with her largesse, we were shown that she put her money into religious institutions and orphanages that already existed and gave their help to the poor. If I were one of the poor, I'd probably trust the High Sparrow who goes around barefoot like me and feeds the poor with his own hands more than the aristocrat who is rarely seen and gives charity with one hand while taking taxes and drafting your children into his army with the other.

Edited May 16, 2016 by screamin

[Umbelina]

10 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I am beginning to think that the moment the show moved ahead of the books someone put up a sign in the writer's room  that says What would GRRM do?

And of course the answer is kill at least one well known character an episode.

I'm not saying I don't expect death, but with every new death the shock factor of it is starting to wear off. It's more surprising when someone lives. I feel like the writers are just killing people because its become the expected of the show.

GRRM would take thousands of pages to kill a few, but I think he would still kill them.  I don't think it's about "shock factor" as much as "let's get this massive cast of characters and stories down to a manageable number" because unlike GRRM?  They need to finish this story.

8 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was surprised by D&D going rogue and Dany being fireproof again.  At least she now has a massive army and can move her plot forward, just in time to rescue Tyrion from that extremely boring Meereen storyline.

 

It really makes me wonder if GRRM planned to have the dragons swoop in and rescue Dany, and also wonder if now, he sees how empowering it is for her to rescue her own self, and supply herself with an army at the same time.  I honestly don't think it's a CGI cost thing, CGI is used extensively by much less expensive movies and shows now, in some ways, it can even be cheaper than other production methods.

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

 

As bored as I am with everything Meereen since we know none of it is likely to matter in end game anyway and the only thing it's really shown is that Dany isn't an effective ruler, pyrotechnics aside, that's how delighted I suddenly find myself with the Northern crew.  I've never been a huge Stark fan but that's story I now find myself caring the most about and I love all the disparate characters that are coming together for it.

Meereen bores everyone, and always has.  As far as Dany though, I don't think it was about whether or not she was an effective leader, but more Dany LEARNING to govern, because she has the leadership thing down.  She's a born leader up to a point, but governing?  She is learning as she goes, and to her credit, she didn't abandon people she had rallied.  Still, yes, a complete quagmire of suck created by GRRM, and hopefully now D & D will resolve this thing and move on.

7 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I wouldn't underestimate that storyline playing out on screen that way for budgetary reasons.  It's unlikely the possibility of dragon rescue wasn't on the writers' minds.  It's highly likely they have certain episodes budgeted for major CGI expenditures and this one didn't make the cut.  There was also a loud outcry last season about how women are depicted on the show storylines, so writing it in a way where it's Dany's personal powers that overpower the Khols and free herself was also a nice placation of an outraged segment of viewers.  I think this episode may have been intended to soothe those particular troubled waters in many ways.  

Of course the final scene was no doubt their not so very subtle message -- done under the plausible deniability clause where it was "storyline appropriate". 

Or they just write better now that they don't have to follow the books? 

7 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I don't know what the High Sparrow's end-game is either.  

It's possible that he's someone significant from the past seeking revenge on the Lannisters.  If so, you'd think someone would recognize him.  But then again he doesn't seem to be keeping the same high public profile as the prior High Septons.  Jaime and Cersei might be too young to recognize someone of the HS's age.  Olenna would be old enough, but maybe she was not in the loop on that particular past conflict?

It's possible that he really does want to reassert the power of the Church vis a vis the Crown and return the Chuch to a position of power rather than a rubber-stamp that merely validates the Crown's prerogatives.  

And if it's the latter, it might be the result of an authentic sense of "righteousness", or it might be the result of simple personal ambition.

I got the sense from the books that the High Sparrow and Faith Militant were introduced by Martin as another example of Cersei's stupidity and the blowback that she incurred from her ridiculous schemes that were motivated by paranoia, revenge and anger.

I dislike religious fanatics and completely agree that much harm has been done to our world because of them.  However, in Westeros, in fact the entire GRRM world?  How is the Faith Militant worse for the majority of people than these asshole inherited wealth/title houses?  The High Sparrow isn't wearing jewels and sitting in palaces eating rare fruits and drinking expensive wine.  He isn't burning fields, and telling his armies to wipe out entire towns, and be sure to rape the women and kids first. 

It may seem like a really small thing, but he is feeding the poor.  When you are starving, trying to catch rats to eat, but now even the rats are gone?  What matters the most to you?  Food for yourself and your families and friends.  Shelter because this army or that army burned your village to the ground.  HOPE.

Of all the players in this game, he is certainly, in no way, the worst.

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Kings Landing is feeling only a little less superfluous than whatever the hell it is they're still doing in Meereen.  It was interesting when all the better players were still there and winter was coming in oh ... maybe one of these days.  But the real story is in the North now and all the mostly B team has done in Kings Landing up to this episode is basically move chairs around and snipe at each other while they're basically being held hostage by a bunch of dirty religious fanatics.  Allegedly, they're still running a kingdom but we haven't gotten any real sense of that in awhile now.   

Hopefully, that story is finally going to move and finally get Jaime out of the city and into the Riverlands where he belongs.  I also do kind of want to see Margaery be the last one standing of her house but they haven't completely sold me on that either because she's been given so little to do for so long.

Must give Lena as many scenes as possible though! 

5 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

I think this part of his plan (in addition to Cersei's walk of atonement), is in order to tear down the aristocracy. For decades (if not longer) the peasants have been told the nobles are better then them, they see them dressed in their finery. He's trying to show the people that everyone is the same, a sinner in the eyes of the Seven.

To what ultimate end I have no idea.

Equality?  Freedom from being ruled by assholes?  Food?  Shelter?  Dignity? 

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Making the character into a hypocrite would be the laziest course the writers could take with the High Sparrow.

I agree.  In some ways he is a hero, or at least the only one on screen doing anything to help,  who actually cares about the "small folk."  Well, Dany is as well, but since she's still learning, often causing more problems than she solves, but I doubt the slaves feel that way.

2 hours ago, Ariah said:

I'm waiting for this to happen because frankly, Nikolaj is too good an actor to be wasted in the background of Kings' Landing, running after Cersei.

Again, screw him, must bulk up Lena's story.  This is the one place that seriously bothers me about the adaptation, because to me, it's so blatant.  It's not "to simplify and move along the story."

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

I think it's just a matter of the High Sparrow becoming drunk on his own power while sticking it to all the high and mighty.  His brand of "justice" is really trading one form of tyranny for another. What's he going to do if/when he manages to destroy the current power structure? Religious dictatorships are just as bad as "secular" ones. 

Go without food for even two days, you don't even have to sleep outside in rags, just go without all food, you can even still have access to clean water.  These people are starving and suffering, masses of them, while their "leaders" play games for more power and money, creating more masses of suffering "nobodies" each week.  Of course they are flocking to him, he's the only one they have that in a very real way, not a soul way, but a body way, trying to save them.  I doubt the give a damn why, although religion is often comforting to people, especially those staring death in the eye.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Umbelina
"

[TaurusRose]

Like most everyone here, I was thrilled with the Starks reuniting scene and Daenerys’ “I’ll show you who will be fucked” scene.

I have never liked Sansa because she was insufferable when first introduced; the typical self-centered, entitled noble brat.  All of the ‘legitimate’ Starks seemed to treat Jon as a brother except her and her crab-ass mother, who I could not stand.  I hated Catelyn Stark and didn’t bat an eye when her throat was slit during the red wedding.  As a matter of fact, I recall shouting YES! when that happened.  Back to Sansa…I didn’t like the way she behaved towards Tyrion either during their so-called wedding because of all the Lannisters he was always decent towards her.  But just because I disliked Sansa, I didn’t like seeing her abused at the hands of Cersei, Joffrey and Ramsay.  I was so surprised to see her, Brienne and Pod standing at the gate.  I was sure they’d find some way to mess that up so she'd get there and Jon would be gone, so the embrace between brother and sister just melted my heart.  I’m also glad she apologized to Jon for the way she treated him when they were kids.  She has grown up a lot and I’m glad about that.  Watching her at Castle Black, I could see the strength and fierce love of family and home that her mother had, but that determined will is tempered by a deep kindness and compassion that CS never had, IMO.  I’m hoping that Tormund and the rest of wildling warriors will have Jon’s back when he and Sansa go back to clean house and rescue Rickon.  I want to see Winterfell inhabited by Starks and if Jon truly doesn’t want to be Lord Commander any more, he can be Lord Stark, Warden of the North.  Also, I don’t want to see any more dead direwolves.  I hate Ramsay.  That letter he sent to Castle Black was all kinds of uncalled for.  Please. PLEASE kill him soon.  I don’t care who does it, I just want him dead.    

Jon is so cute and little.  I just had to get that out there.

Where the hell is Ghost?

Daenerys.  What can I say about her except she’s always been my girl and this is the second time she’s made me prouder than proud.  Bow down, bitches.  She of the many titles is burning assholes and taking no prisoners.  I can’t wait to see Dany in action with a Dothraki horde at her back.  I know that Tyrion has a sharp mind, but I don’t know if his plan is going to pan out this time.  At any rate, I like seeing him with Grey Worm, Missandi and Varys.  Oh, and Missandi?  You were rocking it, girl.  Too bad Grey Worm can only talk about patrols.  LOL   Where the hell are the dragons?  Can they make another appearance, please?  The rest of Meereen sucks, though. 

Kings Landing.  Do I care?  Not really; although,I do want somebody to smash the High Sparrow’s face in just to shut him up.  Cersei makes me sick.  So she got paraded through the city and everybody got to laugh, ridicule and point (not to mention throw things).  After all the horrible things she’s done to others and being the direct cause of Lady’s death, she got off easy.  At least she’s still alive, so she’d better STFU before she can’t even claim that.  I love how Olenna always cuts her down to size though. 

This & That:  I’m sad about Osha because she did protect and look after Rickon for years, plus she was an ornery little shit and I liked her in a way I never liked Ygritte.  RIP, Osha.  Loved Brienne simply owing Melisandre and Davos during that pissing contest, and I loved her “yeah, I executed Stannis” before she stomped off.  I don’t get Margarey.  I need something more from this character. I’m not shipping Tormund and Brienne.  Nope.  Uh-uh.  Can’t do it.  Don’t care.  And I really don’t want to see either one of them naked. 

People I did not miss:  Petyr Littlefinger and the moronic Robin.  (Kudos to the OP who used the word ‘smug’ several times to describe LF, you nailed it.)  Gilly and Sam.  Bran and the TEC. The Sand Snakes. 

BTS Drama I do not care about:  EC’s objection (or not) to nude scenes, but if memory serves from season 1, it looked like her to me.   

[Nanrad]

4 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

So as far as the Dany issue goes: I'm finally at a computer, so I can bang out some of what didn't sit right with me.

I'd have more sympathy if Dany couldn't have escaped without killing the Khals. Daario and Jorah got in largely without incident, and the city doesn't have walls. The fact that the other crones allowed her to walk off to go to the bathroom with one escort is kinda breathtaking in its stupidity, but maybe they figured that even if she gave Crone #2 the slip she wouldn't get far without help. But she had help. Once she tagged up with Daario and Jorah, what was stopping them from escaping back the way they came? Again, it's a city without walls. If Daario and Jorah had been captured or something, it would have made more sense for Dany to take her safety into her own hands. But as it was, there was really no reason to lock herself in with the Khals instead. It comes off more that she needs to replace her felled Unsullied and bloodriders with a new set of worshipers soldiers and saw a show of power as the most efficient way to do so. Because really, that's frequently her move. It helps that the people she comes up against are generally despicable in a way most of the Westerosi aren't, but when she promised that her enemies would die screaming, she's made good on that promise every time--sometimes needlessly so.

And if she's planning on executing every murderer, every slaver, every rapist...well, Daario's a murderer. Jorah's a former slaver (who still hasn't repented of his actions as far as I remember). Drogo was definitely a rapist, and he's the only one of her inner circle Dany has killed, reluctantly and for reasons unrelated to his actions. She still hasn't breathed a word of regret that Hizdahr died saving her after she Stockholmed him into submission, and I predict that she won't, because she's Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Liberator of Slaver's Bay...

And it would be different, perhaps, if the show didn't insist on comparing and contrasting her with Jon. Jon is also up against a cartoonishly evil villain, but as stated he rejects the labels and the worship and the adoration. His demeanor is humble and requesting, rather than entitled and conquering. I will rethink my opinion of her the moment she mentions Hizdahr's name in thanks for what he did to save her. But I'm almost certain I won't need to.

There was honestly no other choice but to kill the khals. Say she escapes, it's three of them versus hundreds/thousands because they sure as hell were going to track her. As a widow, she broke tradition the first time and they sure as hell weren't going to let her escape again and for as long as she did. So, either escape and get tracked down and face a worse punishment or just fucking kill them and be over with it? That's not a difficult option for Dany. She couldn't just kill one because other khals would track her, so she made a plan: burn all of the khals and get an army in the process--pretty good plan, imo. 

As mentioned, they come from vastly different backgrounds and Jon had a parent who actually raised him opposed to a guardian who groomed him, and then sold him off like Dany. Dany was groomed, sold, and constantly told about her family who were rulers. She lacks a lot of perspective, but it's due to a lack of guidance and ignorance about how the world works. Dany is trying to take control of her life and improve others and she's learning more and more that she doesn't have all the answers and simply "liberating" them doesn't improve anything without a solution. 

[Alapaki]

There are prominent religious leaders even today who believe that punishment (including potentially physical punishment) is an appropriate way to "correct" sinners, all in the interest of saving their eternal souls, of course.

To the extent that this "burning the village to save it" mentality is absurd, I agree.  Hypocritical?  As a doctrine, maybe.  But not equivalent to a religious leader failing to practice in his private life what they preach publicly.

As far as Dany, I have no problem with her burning down the house.  Being part of the Dosh Khaleen was not a viable option for her, and that was her best case scenario.  I'm guessing that as far as the rank and file, she'll give them a choice in whether to follow her or not.  Given the kneeling at the end of the episode (which I didn't comply buy as something that would've happened) though, I'm guessing she'll get most of them on her side.  If her dragons show up and validate that part of her title, she'll probably get the rest.

But I'm curious how successful an army of Dothraki, or Unsullied for that matter, would be against an army of armored infantry and cavalry, and going up against walled castles with expert archers, trebuchets and other relatively "modern" warfare techniques and weapons.  And the thing about a big army is that you have to feed them.  To say nothing of the fact that, depending on what ships and sailors they end up using to cross the sea, they're may not make it any port unmolested.  They might be facing a sea battle followed by the need for an amphibious assault to establish a beachhead, which is one of the hardest military maneuvers.  

Granted, having dragons who can fry opposing armies nearly wholesale makes a lot of those things easier.  But, given that, why bother trying to build the army in the first place?

[Nanrad]

3 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Yep, "Women power." Unlike those losers that use "Man Power" like Mance Rayder that spent 20 years subduing, negotiating and uniting the Wildings to get them to safety on the other side of the Wall, Jon that had to serve the previous Lord Commander as a steward, lead  a band of Crows to avenge the old man and was one of the leaders for the Battle for Castle Black. Or Tyrion and Varys, that often tried to outmaneuver their rivals. Heck, Brienne of Tarth (learning sword play), Shireen (studying books) and Arya (actually training in...something), made use of "Man Power", which is probably why it is  the word is given to actual physical work.  

"Women Power": that lovely mixture of entitlement and being God's pet. Too bad Shireen didn't think to be born fire proof, she seemed smarter and more intellectual curious than Dany.

No, "Woman power" as in not letting the fact that your brother abused you, and then sold you into a marriage so he could gain power; "woman power" as in learning your role and what you husband wanted so you can be more than a plaything he fucked; "woman power" as in learning how to take control of your life so your brother stops using his gender to verbal/physically abuse you; "woman power" as in acknowledge that liberation is more than ridding the old system and staying until a new and effective one is put in place--it's listening to others and understanding you don't have all of the answers--it's taking agency over your life in a way that was robbed of you the first decade and change. 

Dany didn't do the physical work? Doesn't she not bare the emotional scars all of the shit that was done to her? Are you telling me that there are men in this series who don't feel ENTITLEMENT to women, power, titles, and shit? But, it's an issue that Dany feels entitled to the throne because her family was killed and she was the heir to said throne? This whole chain reaction was kicked up by that bitch ass Little Dick because he felt entitled to Cat and wouldn't let go of a happily married woman who, even if she wasn't happily married, didn't return his feelings. Now, let's talk about that entitlement and how it's gotten many killed and destroyed lives. Dany's entitlement may rub people the wrong way, but she does want to change thing for the better--Little Dick's entitlement has fucked everything up. 

Dany is a woman who lacked agency before she got where she was. She wouldn't have had 20 years to negotiate shit without being kidnapped and raped. Jon CHOSE to go to the Wall after living a relatively privileged life and was raised relatively well, which is how he was able to advance, Tyrion privilege, despite being a dwarf, but also feels entitled, Varys I'll concede had it harder than many. Both Shireen and Brienne were privileged--they came from money. Brienne's dad allowed her to learn swordplay and Stannis allowed Shireen her books and knowledge. Shireen and Dany come from vastly different backgrounds and it's not Dany's fault Stannis allowed her daughter to be burned and that she is fie proof. Should Dany just allow the men to make good on their threats of rape and slavery rather than....I don't know, killing them in a way that doesn't harm her? Should she feel sorry for her life of privilege after what she came from?

most of the characters you mentioned either are male and/or have privilege and were raised in better environments--again, most, which makes their circumstances different from Dany's. Some had to overcome a lot. In the case of Arya, she's only learning fighting to become No One for revenge. Granted, many of them are smart and witty, but it took intelligence for Dany to execute her plans as well as understanding when to act and the ramifications of her actions. And was Dany not learning to how govern people??? That was why she decided to stay in Meeren. It was why she married that dude. It was why she allowed an activity she was morally against. 

Lastly, "woman power" because, although she had some assistance, Dany saved herself. In a lot of media, it's men saving women or men saving men. But, it's not often women save men let alone themselves. 

[Umbelina]

Quote

But I'm curious how successful an army of Dothraki, or Unsullied for that matter, would be against an army of armored infantry and cavalry, and going up against walled castles with expert archers, trebuchets and other relatively "modern" warfare techniques and weapons.  And the thing about a big army is that you have to feed them.

Well, Dani does have Tyrion, who did quite well with Westeros battle strategies when he was in that position.  Then again, they way it's going, Dani may be marching into an already destroyed and starving Westeros, and not have much competition other than Winter and the White Walkers.  As far as food, that will probably be Dorne's only real use.

I still wonder if this will be Ideology vs Ideology for a resolve, rather than army vs army.

---

Yeah, @Nanrad both Dany and Sansa's stories have a great deal in common.  I always knew Sansa was destined to be pretty much what she has become (minus Ramsay specifically, though perhaps not the subjugation.)   Dany though?  Honestly, in the books and on the show, there are just times she truly surprises me.  It's not the magic so much as it is her audacious confidence.  I've been accused of being intimidating because of confidence and leadership abilities in my life, but damn!  Dany just obliterates me there, and I pretty much love that.  Several times while reading she just does things that show an innate leadership/confidence that blows me away.  That, more than her dragons, made me think she might actually be a legitimate player.

As far as winning the throne?  I have my own ideas about that, in the speculation thread, where they belong.  Ha.

[rubyred]

27 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

All of the ‘legitimate’ Starks seemed to treat Jon as a brother except her and her crab-ass mother, who I could not stand.  I hated Catelyn Stark and didn’t bat an eye when her throat was slit during the red wedding.  As a matter of fact, I recall shouting YES! when that happened.

Is there such a thing as flashback rage? Because even just thinking back on Catelynn's self-righteous, bitchy self still almost puts me in a blackout of hate.

I think we're now seeing some of the pros and cons of the show now being off-book. On the plus side, pacing and emotional payoff. Shit is happening faster, and DAMN did the audience deserve a Stark reunion of some kind. On the minus side (IMO), the writing is getting...eh. Tyrion used to be witty. Now he's reduced to making jokes about Varys' lack of balls, hardy har. He did it twice in two weeks; the "diplomats" took care of the eunuch joke this week. Meanwhile the real vein of comedy to be mined is in the characters, such as the Brienne/Tormund scenes. No dialogue necessary, folks! Not a single dick joke, yet you knew exactly what was going on and the reactions of each of the characters was perfect.

Personally I think it's because no matter how much D&D love the source material, they don't looove this story like GRRM does. Dude loves this story so much, he can't bear to finish it! Meanwhile D&D hit the mother lode in terms of a rich, detailed intellectual property that is a hit on TV. And sure they're into the story, but they also have favorites (Cersei, Ramsay) who don't really seem to be longterm players. Ramsay has definitely long since hit his sell by date, and I get it, I like Iwan Rheon too but as many have said, Ramsay's pathologies are well-documented and he's just not clever enough to get further. Too bad he killed his dad, Roose was a chess player (figuratively speaking) with the best voice.

D&D are also producers, so probably by necessity their storytelling decisions are going to be influenced to some degree by production costs. GRRM doesn't have to worry about how often the dragons appear; for D&D that's a huge chunk of the CGI budget. Hmm. I wonder if they could direct some of that budget into a CGI wig for Cersei. It certainly couldn't look worse than the one they've got her in now.

I love Brienne so much, you guys. I love her stank face. I loved how she rolled up on Davos and Melisandre. I loved how Mel winced and tried to slide away when Brienne mentioned Renly. Always standing tall, never cowering. Never change, Brienne! I got you girl!

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

The point to me regarding Lancel is that his crimes were a lot worse than Margaery's and Loras's yet he didn't have to atone. That strikes me as being completely unfair and imbalanced.

How do you know he hasn't atoned for his sins?

Quote

The sparrows aren't going around feeding the poor and sick or caring for the ill and wounded.

as mentioned above, we've seen the High sparrow feeding the poor.

Edited May 16, 2016 by MrWhyt

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

How do you know he hasn't atoned?

Exactly, he's renounced his former lifestyle, his family position even, and is following the teachings of the High Sparrow.  What could be more atonement than that?

[Umbelina]

I don't think D&D love Cersei.  I think they love Lena.

I agree though, I have no idea why Ramsay has dominated story, to me it's obvious that he will be the catalyst for a battle with Jon, but honestly, did we really need this much Ramsay?  No.  It's making it look too much like he's the only sadistic uncaring creep around, when in the books, there are many, though they may have better pedigrees.

[Ambrosefolly]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Like most everyone here, I was thrilled with the Starks reuniting scene and Daenerys’ “I’ll show you who will be fucked” scene.

I have never liked Sansa because she was insufferable when first introduced; the typical self-centered, entitled noble brat.  All of the ‘legitimate’ Starks seemed to treat Jon as a brother except her and her crab-ass mother, who I could not stand.  I hated Catelyn Stark and didn’t bat an eye when her throat was slit during the red wedding.  As a matter of fact, I recall shouting YES! when that happened.  Back to Sansa…I didn’t like the way she behaved towards Tyrion either during their so-called wedding because of all the Lannisters he was always decent towards her.  But just because I disliked Sansa, I didn’t like seeing her abused at the hands of Cersei, Joffrey and Ramsay.  I was so surprised to see her, Brienne and Pod standing at the gate.  I was sure they’d find some way to mess that up so she'd get there and Jon would be gone, so the embrace between brother and sister just melted my heart.  I’m also glad she apologized to Jon for the way she treated him when they were kids.  She has grown up a lot and I’m glad about that.  Watching her at Castle Black, I could see the strength and fierce love of family and home that her mother had, but that determined will is tempered by a deep kindness and compassion that CS never had, IMO.  I’m hoping that Tormund and the rest of wildling warriors will have Jon’s back when he and Sansa go back to clean house and rescue Rickon.  I want to see Winterfell inhabited by Starks and if Jon truly doesn’t want to be Lord Commander any more, he can be Lord Stark, Warden of the North.  Also, I don’t want to see any more dead direwolves.  I hate Ramsay.  That letter he sent to Castle Black was all kinds of uncalled for.  Please. PLEASE kill him soon.  I don’t care who does it, I just want him dead.    

I think it is often forgotten that Sansa was (and still is) a teenager and a kid that was more sheltered than spoiled. Just because Tyrion stood up to for her during one of Joffrey's meltdown, doesn't mean she has to be particularly happy to wed a man twice her age that she doesn't find attractive, and the only thing she did was give him a sour look during their reception, where Tyrion got falling down drunk to deal with the evening. She was polite and cordial to him before the wedding and was even willing to consummate their marriage that night. 

She was a girl that was training to be a lady, while the rest of her sibling were into more athletic, manly pursuits so I could imagine her just not having many shared interest with Jon (and yes her mother's attitude) contributed to their lack of closeness. 

Yes nice that Brienne won that pissing match...especially since Davos was trying to find out the fate of a helpless child. Hopefully when Davos and Brienne finds out what happened to Shireen, he could tell her that Shireen would have been twice the ruler than Renly.

Quote

 

No, "Woman power" as in not letting the fact that your brother abused you, and then sold you into a marriage so he could gain power; "woman power" as in learning your role and what you husband wanted so you can be more than a plaything he fucked; "woman power" as in learning how to take control of your life so your brother stops using his gender to verbal/physically abuse you; "woman power" as in acknowledge that liberation is more than ridding the old system and staying until a new and effective one is put in place--it's listening to others and understanding you don't have all of the answers--it's taking agency over your life in a way that was robbed of you the first decade and change. 

Dany didn't do the physical work? Doesn't she not bare the emotional scars all of the shit that was done to her? Are you telling me that there are men in this series who don't feel ENTITLEMENT to women, power, titles, and shit? But, it's an issue that Dany feels entitled to the throne because her family was killed and she was the heir to said throne? This whole chain reaction was kicked up by that bitch ass Little Dick because he felt entitled to Cat and wouldn't let go of a happily married woman who, even if she wasn't happily married, didn't return his feelings. Now, let's talk about that entitlement and how it's gotten many killed and destroyed lives. Dany's entitlement may rub people the wrong way, but she does want to change thing for the better--Little Dick's entitlement has fucked everything up. 

Dany is a woman who lacked agency before she got where she was. She wouldn't have had 20 years to negotiate shit without being kidnapped and raped. Jon CHOSE to go to the Wall after living a relatively privileged life and was raised relatively well, which is how he was able to advance, Tyrion privilege, despite being a dwarf, but also feels entitled, Varys I'll concede had it harder than many. Both Shireen and Brienne were privileged--they came from money. Brienne's dad allowed her to learn swordplay and Stannis allowed Shireen her books and knowledge. Shireen and Dany come from vastly different backgrounds and it's not Dany's fault Stannis allowed her daughter to be burned and that she is fie proof. Should Dany just allow the men to make good on their threats of rape and slavery rather than....I don't know, killing them in a way that doesn't harm her? Should she feel sorry for her life of privilege after what she came from?

most of the characters you mentioned either are male and/or have privilege and were raised in better environments--again, most, which makes their circumstances different from Dany's. Some had to overcome a lot. In the case of Arya, she's only learning fighting to become No One for revenge. Granted, many of them are smart and witty, but it took intelligence for Dany to execute her plans as well as understanding when to act and the ramifications of her actions. And was Dany not learning to how govern people??? That was why she decided to stay in Meeren. It was why she married that dude. It was why she allowed an activity she was morally against. 

Lastly, "woman power" because, although she had some assistance, Dany saved herself. In a lot of media, it's men saving women or men saving men. But, it's not often women save men let alone themselves. 

 

None of which was used in that scene.  All of her "women power" or "power" comes from the fact she the only human that we know of that can't be burned alive. She didn't develop the ability to be fireproof over years of training, it is kind of there. And since it is such a singular ability, the Gods must have picked her special, so that is why the Dorthaki fell in line.

 She didn't use her talents as part of the "fairer" sex to win over the Khals (like she managed to do in season one with Drogo).  Her being sold, or in a shitty arranged marriage (that worked out a heck of a lot better for her than it did for Sansa) is not hugely different than what Margery, Loras, Trystane, Marcella, Tyrion, Cersei, Catelyn, Lysa (and what a mind fuck that  did to her), Edmure, Roslin, Walda or even the brother that sold her into that marriage, were forced to do or going to be forced to do. Robb tried not to be sold, and he lost his head for it.

Everyone, men and women feel entitled to something. The noble folk (as Ollana, a woman showed) feel entitled to survive the clusterfuck they got the Seven Kingdoms into above the small folk that are just trying to live their lives. 

I never said it was Dany's fault that Stannis burned Shireen alive, I said is unfortunate  that she didn't have the fire proof ability because I think Shireen would have made a better ruler.

I have more respect for Sansa, who I think actually made use of real woman power to survive years and years of people that threaten to kill her, rape her, marry her off to various men, including her cousin, and is now mounting a rescue of her youngest brother without the benefit of people thinking she is some god and even thinking she is some sort of survivor. Her and Jon were everything. I was angered by what they did to Osha, because she was a survivor in a similar way.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[screamin]

15 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Exactly, he's renounced his former lifestyle, his family position even, and is following the teachings of the High Sparrow.  What could be more atonement than that?

Not to mention he's also carved that nasty symbol into his forehead, didn't he?

[Tikichick]

Sansa was also the one Stark child that favored the Tully side.  She found Winterfell cold, was trying to emulate her mother's training to be a lady, and was hoping to find romance and live somewhere warmer and more exciting than Winterfell.  All of those pretty much matched her mother's thinking about life at Winterfell when she arrived there as a young bride.   

[DigitalCount]

36 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

most of the characters you mentioned either are male and/or have privilege and were raised in better environments--again, most, which makes their circumstances different from Dany's. Some had to overcome a lot. In the case of Arya, she's only learning fighting to become No One for revenge. Granted, many of them are smart and witty, but it took intelligence for Dany to execute her plans as well as understanding when to act and the ramifications of her actions. And was Dany not learning to how govern people??? That was why she decided to stay in Meeren. It was why she married that dude. It was why she allowed an activity she was morally against.

Emphasis mine.

That dude's name was Hizdahr zo Loraq. She crucified his father for a crime he didn't commit. When she suspected he was a part of a plot to overthrow her rule based on zero factfinding whatsoever, she fed a man to her dragons in front of him, had him physically and emotionally tortured, and forced him to marry her. It's important to note that when someone so much as threatens her with the fate she gave him, she burns them alive at the first opportunity. In contrast, Hizdahr died saving her life, the life of his captor.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I would like to put it in perspective. Ramsey was given a scene where he could show enough humanity and compassion to mourn his companion Myranda. I do not believe we will get a similar scene from Dany for the man who died on her behalf.

[Gertrude]

11 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Just because Tyrion stood up to for her during one of Joffrey's meltdown, doesn't mean she has to be particularly happy to wed a man twice her age that she doesn't find attractive, and the only thing she did was give him a sour look during their reception, where Tyrion got falling down drunk to deal with the evening. She was polite and cordial to him before the wedding and was even willing to consummate their marriage that night.

I appreciate someone refuting the 'Sansa was a bitch for not appreciating Tyrion' point of view, and I just want to add another argument for this. Tyrion was a Lannister - end of story. Even if Tyrion was the only Lannister who was decent to her, it doesn't matter. He is a part of the family that beheaded her father, made her life a daily torture and is at war with her family. She doesn't need any other reason to object to this marriage with every fiber of her being.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Gertrude

[Tikichick]

Tyrion understood utterly and completely why Sansa would be miserable to marry him, on multiple counts -- and agreed her feelings were justified.  That's crystal clear in the books where we have his POV. 

[Minneapple]

Also Sansa was FORCED to marry Tyrion. That would make anyone miserable, no matter what the other circumstances are.

[Chairman Meow]

My current favorite thing is that if you Google Brienne/Tormund you get a slew of news stories about how it's the ship you never knew you wanted.

[kittykat]

I actually liked how they portrayed the Sansa/Tyrion marriage in the show better than the books. Tyrion understood that Sansa was forced to marry him and didn't make her do anything she didn't want too unlike the second forced marriage.  Both of them were outcasts and mocked by others and started down the path of becoming friends before the RW happened. 

I feel the same complaints about Ramsey now are the same people had about the Lannisters at the end of S3. After killing Ned, winning Blackwater and of course the RW, people complained about them never losing.  Then of course things started going downhill.  Things are already looking down for Ramsey; he has an uneasy alliance with Northern lords that can easily fall apart if Sansa and Jon March on Winterfell.  His time is coming, I'm going with episode 9.

[Constantinople]

39 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Ramsey was given a scene where he could show enough humanity and compassion to mourn his companion Myranda.

And then tell the maester to feed his beloved's body to the dogs.

He lost me there, but then my previously.tv icon isn't the Flayed Man of House Bolton.

[TaurusRose]

So, Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion.  He didn't force himself on her or try to make her situation any worse than it was.  He didn't want to marry her either.  Tyrion was FORCED to marry her as well.  But would it have killed her to be cordial upon seeing his effort on her behalf?  I remember her always looking at him like she was looking at a pile of shit.  I'm not saying she had to kow tow to him, I'm saying she could have simply been less of a snotty bitch.  

Edited May 16, 2016 by taurusrose

[jeansheridan]

20 hours ago, Paws said:

3 sibling reunions! So of course there had to be one awful death.  I enjoyed the hell out of this episode; I seriously cried when Sansa and Jon reunited.  I wonder if once he finds out his parentage they will decide that it's ok to hook up?

 

LOVED Cersei and Olenna cutting a deal, recognizing each other as playas.  Jaime and Kevan are just along for the ride.

I've always had a soft spot for Margery as played by Natalie Dormer.  Book Margery just doesn't leap off the page.  She's more an idea than a player. Natalie brings all that cunning.  And I feel horribly for Loras.  As far as we know on the show and in the books, Loras is a pretty decent guy.  He just backed the wrong would-be king, but otherwise his only fault is he is an ass to Brienne and he's gay.  So what is happening to him just sucks.  And I don't know if Margery knew her grandmother poisoned Joffrey.  She probably suspects, but does she actually know.  So I actually don't mind her.  She's a survivor whose worst fault is terrible luck in husbands.  She'd make a decent, if ordinary, queen. 

So I was thrilled to see them reunite too.  And of course I love Vara Greyjoy.  I wish the show had more of her.  I suspect she and Brienne would understand each other.  Maybe not agree, but understand.

[Wulfsige]

I loathe the rape-kill-rape-pillage-rape-destroy-rape-plunder-rape-rape-rape Dothraki and was perfectly happy to have Dany dispose of them so quickly. Apparently these asshats just discovered that their dicks could be used for something other than passing water, which was immediately followed by the realization, "hey guys, ha ha ha, we can use these things to degrade women, ha ha ha!" 

Jeez, it was like some conjugation lesson. "I fuck you, ha ha ha, he fucks you, we fuck you, they fuck you, ha ha ha, the horses fuck you, I will fuck you, he will fuck you, we will fuck you, they will fuck you, ha ha ha, the horses will fuck you, I will have fucked you, he will have fucked you, ha ha ha, we will have fucked you..."

I'm sorry about Osha but was surprised she make it to this week.   

I'd ship Tormund and Brienne except that I do remember he ate Ollie's parents and I'm not convinced that the drooling he was doing over her wasn't just fantasizing whether she'd go better with garlic and thyme or a red wine glaze.

I'm thinking the High Sparrow is going to die and become a martyr. Which will cause the common people to finally rally and revolt. I'd like to see that, actually. I've had enough of the Westerosi aristocracy.

[larapu2000]

2 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

So, Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion.  He didn't force himself on her or try to make her situation any worse than it was.  He didn't want to marry her either.  But would it have killed her to be cordial upon seeing his effort on her behalf?  I remember her always looking at him like she was looking at a pile of shit.  I'm not saying she had to kow tow to him, I'm saying she could have simply been less of a snotty bitch.  

She wasn't just forced to marry him.  She was a prisoner.  She wasn't allowed out of the castle.  Her mother, father, and brother were all murdered by the Lannisters.  Quite frankly, "snotty bitch" is better than he or any other Lannister deserved.  Even though Tyrion wasn't involved, he never had the courage or the stones to send her back to the north, which was what he KNEW was the right thing to do.  

I kind of hope she and Tyrion do cross paths again so she can punish him for his part in her imprisonment.  I'd bet Dany would have a few opinions on that....

[jeansheridan]

20 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

After some consideration I have concluded that it wouldn't be the worst thing for the High Sparrow and his disciples to win the war against the Lannisters and the Tyrells.  All of those people are equally boring and useless in my eyes and I will not miss them.  Cersei and her ridiculous, reckless and nonsensical scheming... sis, you had power when you were married to the King.  Then you had him killed. 

I'm not saying Cersei is a good leader, but she had no choice but to kill the king.  If he had proof her children were not his, then he would have had to execute them (or her at least ...maybe not the kids.  The kids could be banished).  It is kind of amazing what a BAD leader she is given her intelligence and ambition.  She drinks more in the books which addles her a bit.  I sort of wish the show had given Lena that kind of scene to play.  Substance abuse in the fantasy world can be compelling too.  Plus in the books she appears a bit more traumatized by the Walk.  She's taking 8 hour baths which is some serious bathing.  Or it might be the only time she can get away from the handmaidens assigned to her.  She under much more house arrest in the books. 

Quote

I'd ship Tormund and Brienne except that I do remember he ate Ollie's parents and I'm not convinced that the drooling he was doing over her wasn't just fantasizing whether she'd go better with garlic and thyme or a red wine glaze.

Tormund helped kill the villagers, but I don't believe he's a cannibal.  That was the Thresos or whatever they are called.  The big bald tribe.  Not that just killing isn't enough.  Tormund is vicious.  And actually its good to remember that because that is why the north is looking to the Boltons.  Who sucks more ...pillaging wildlings or one mad Bolton?  Bolton is horrendous, but how much damage can he do to a whole region as one man?

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, rubyred said:

Is there such a thing as flashback rage? Because even just thinking back on Catelynn's self-righteous, bitchy self still almost puts me in a blackout of hate.

 

It was so long ago, but show Cat at least had that nice conversation with Robb's wife about how she was unfair to Jon. Not sure why she was so cold to him.  Or why Ned never told her the truth about his alleged parentage.  Catylyn as a lady of the south would have seen the Targs from time to time.  She would have been familiar with their looks.  I wonder if Jon favors his father except for his fortunate coloring?  If his parentage is true.  And if it isn't, we've all been MASSIVELY punked.  Which I personally would love.  If Martin has a cool surprise for us, I'd love it.  Truly love it.

[Chairman Meow]

14 minutes ago, Wulfsige said:

I'd ship Tormund and Brienne except that I do remember he ate Ollie's parents and I'm not convinced that the drooling he was doing over her wasn't just fantasizing whether she'd go better with garlic and thyme or a red wine glaze.

Tormund didn't eat Ollie's parents, that was Styr the Thenn.

[Constantinople]

The barefoot High Sparrow was once a cobbler.  Clever, in a junior high school sort of way.

On the whole I thought his backstory was largely a waste of precious air time, except, perhaps, to show that he just went from one extreme to another.  I think the High Sparrow missed the point of blowing all of his money on wine, women and song and failed to distinguish between how he earned his money and how he spent it.  I would have been more impressed if, instead of going full Stannis Baratheon Taliban after he stopped impersonating Robert Baratheon, he gave away some of the money he earned to the poor.  Or if spent some of his time making simple shoes, like his father did, and gave those away to the poor.

[SoWindsor]

I ship BRUND! 

That's definitely the best name that's been thrown out -- and it fits both Brienne and Tormund.

i think they chose the wrong word when LF convinces Robyn to help Sansa -- he says lets join the Frey. At first I thought he meant Walder Frey.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SoWindsor

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, MrWhyt said:

How do you know he hasn't atoned for his sins?

as mentioned above, we've seen the High sparrow feeding the poor.

No mention is made of Lancel having to perform a walk of atonement or endure any kind of public punishment. If it happened I don't understand why we wouldn't be told.

I remember the scene with the High Sparrow feeding the soup to the poor and remember thinking that the food was more than likely coming in from Highgarden and the Crownlands. I was mainly thinking of the sparrows and septas (and apparently non existent septons). We typically see the sparrows harassing people and the one septa that we know who is under his control gets her jollies from denying people water, sleep, and food in addition to beating them. 

If I'm supposed to believe that these guys are truly looking out for the common people then I wish they'd shown us that instead of scene after scene after scene of them treating people, lowborn and highborn alike, the way that they probably wouldn't want to be treated. They vandalized private property, destroyed the goods of merchants, and beat defenseless people.

[SeanC]

36 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I remember the scene with the High Sparrow feeding the soup to the poor and remember thinking that the food was more than likely coming in from Highgarden and the Crownlands.

And?  It's not like the Tyrells grow it.  They take it from their peasants and distribute it as they please for their political advantage; they starved the city in Season 2, then brought food to feed it to gain popularity.

[Umbelina]

39 minutes ago, SeanC said:

And?  It's not like the Tyrells grow it.  They take it from their peasants and distribute it as they please for their political advantage; they starved the city in Season 2, then brought food to feed it to gain popularity.

Yeah, I'm over the Noble born houses as well.  I don't really care that the High Sparrow captured some of them, or even why he did.  Frankly, the whole lot of them should be killed for what their ambitions and greed and power-mad, money-mad shenanigans have done to a land expecting winter.  I was pretty much on the side of the small folk by the time Caitlyn became a zombie and GRRM gave us a glimpse into their lives.

Oh boo hoo, Cersei had to have her head shaved and walk naked.  Lory's went to war for his lover's glory.  Marge wants to be Queen no matter whom she must marry, and now she's spending time in a cell that is still more shelter than the "small folk" enjoy and why?  Because their homes, skimpy as they were?  Are mostly gone, and little better than hovels if not. 

Meanwhile, the "small folk" finally begin banding together, and honestly, who can blame them?  They are nothing to these people, except laborers to provide them with lavish banquets and exquisite armor or clothing, along with all of the clean up involved, and oh yeah, marching to their death in wars for their "betters" glory and reward, leaving orphans and widows in their wake, on all sides.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Umbelina
because nobel and noble are not the same thing...typo

[Advance35]

Quote

She was a girl that was training to be a lady, while the rest of her sibling were into more athletic, manly pursuits so I could imagine her just not having many shared interest with Jon (and yes her mother's attitude) contributed to their lack of closeness. 

All I can think is that Sansa probably would have been quite the player had she been groomed by The Tyrells, specifically, Olenna.  I have know doubt that Ned and Catelyn loved their children but it's quite clear they didn't prepare any of them for lives at Court or for life on the wider political stage.  That their daughter struck the crowned prince and heir to the Iron Throne shows just how out of touch Ned & Catelyn were and how out of touch they allowed their children to become.

Quote

I feel the same complaints about Ramsey now are the same people had about the Lannisters at the end of S3. After killing Ned, winning Blackwater and of course the RW, people complained about them never losing.

The only difference between Ramsay and the Lannister's is a veneer of civility on the part of the latter.  They can and have been just as savage as Ramsay (even more so in the book), it's just that their savagery is distanced because they don't do the ill-deeds with their own hands.   Cersei, especially is a monster when you review her laundry list of misdeeds since the story began.

[screamin]

18 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

No mention is made of Lancel having to perform a walk of atonement or endure any kind of public punishment. If it happened I don't understand why we wouldn't be told.

We've seen that Lancel renounced his Lannister riches and his inheritance of power from his father Kevan to live the same vows-of-poverty life every humble Sparrow does. We've seen him mortify his flesh by carving holy symbols in it. Yes, it's different from Cersei's 'atonement.' Even in our own world, though, when a person confesses to a priest, the priest is free to decide what atonements the confessed sin requires on an individual basis. Considering that the High Sparrow is also the High Septon (the 'Pope' of that world), I'd guess he considers it's within his purview to decide which atonement is appropriate to which sinner.

26 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

If I'm supposed to believe that these guys are truly looking out for the common people then I wish they'd shown us that instead of scene after scene after scene of them treating people, lowborn and highborn alike, the way that they probably wouldn't want to be treated. They vandalized private property, destroyed the goods of merchants, and beat defenseless people.

I don't think we're "supposed to believe that these guys are truly looking out for the common people." I don't think we're supposed to be taking their sides or cheering them on unreservedly. I think we ARE supposed to take notice of the misery and squalor of the poor of Westeros and the horrors that the wars of the aristocracy visited on them, that the show has lovingly depicted for us - horrors that most of the aristocracy have been largely shielded from, even though they caused it. I think that we're supposed to see the way the aristocracy lives off the toil of the smallfolk, spends their lives in stupid wars - and therefore understand why the smallfolk cheer when they see the former High Septon driven naked through the streets. They're not just seeing a poor, defenseless old man being beaten. What they're seeing is a man who took the money meant for the poor and spent it on whores, and took the worship of the gods and used it as a cover for his depravity.

So when the High Sparrow sells the expensive High Septon's crown and the other costly temple trappings to feed the poor - of course they're going to cheer him as their hero. And when he humbles the highfolk who've started the wars that have caused them so much misery for the sake of their own selfish whims - we're supposed to understand why they adore him as their Savonarola, understand why he has that much power over them, even IMO understand why he might think he's doing the right thing as he grabs for further power. We know from our perspective that a religious dictatorship is a horror, and we see the cruelty committed by it...but as someone pointed out, in matters of cruelty, the High Sparrow hasn't inflicted a fraction of the harm the established rulers have. It's understandable why the smallfolk want a change of regime, and why they'd prefer him, even if we know it's a bad idea that's bound to go horribly wrong.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

The point to me regarding Lancel is that his crimes were a lot worse than Margaery's and Loras's yet he didn't have to atone. That strikes me as being completely unfair and imbalanced.

I maintain that even by the standards of their world that the High Septon is a massive hypocrite. He goes around saying that he's trying to bring the goodness back to the common people but freely has his men harrass, torture, and engage in other acts of thuggish violence against the people. He threatens the food supply of the people by earning the wrarth of Highgarden and his minions are only shown being mean and threatening to people. The sparrows aren't going around feeding the poor and sick or caring for the ill and wounded. The septas aren't shown doing acts of charity. It's been one long horror show that's getting scarier for everyone with the more power he gets. He's easily the most dangerous man in King's Landing at present.

WRT Lancel, unlike Loras and Margery, he freely confessed and went trough a ritual of cleansing, where as L & M boldly lied, now if you think Lancel won't be facing atonement, there's a Mountain waiting to prove you wrong.

As far as helping the people, he may or may not have people helping the citizenry and so could be a hypocrite, but we also know Cersei and Olenna are also plotting against them, and as far as hypocrisy, Marge wasn't doing it just out of the goodness of her  heart she was role playing also.

Now that I'm out of the wood shed I have to catch up.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

The barefoot High Sparrow was once a cobbler.  Clever, in a junior high school sort of way.

On the whole I thought his backstory was largely a waste of precious air time, except, perhaps, to show that he just went from one extreme to another.  I think the High Sparrow missed the point of blowing all of his money on wine, women and song and failed to distinguish between how he earned his money and how he spent it.  I would have been more impressed if, instead of going full Stannis Baratheon Taliban after he stopped impersonating Robert Baratheon, he gave away some of the money he earned to the poor.  Or if spent some of his time making simple shoes, like his father did, and gave those away to the poor.

If he's even telling the truth.  We don't know for sure who he is or where he came from.  It's highly likely he has many irons in the fire ala Littlefinger.

[Umbelina]

It would be fun to have a poll about now.  I hate starting thread though, and have never made a poll.  "Who do you want to win the Game of Thrones?" 

• Dani
• Jon
• Any Stark Kid
• White Walkers
• Tyrion
• High Septon
• Davos
• Small Folk
• Littlefinger
• No one, destroy that sucker!
• Someone else *write it in
• etc that I haven't thought of, ha

Edited May 17, 2016 by Umbelina

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

No mention is made of Lancel having to perform a walk of atonement or endure any kind of public punishment. If it happened I don't understand why we wouldn't be told.

cause he's a tertiary character at best, we don't hear about him taking a shit either but we have to presume he does.

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the one septa that we know who is under his control gets her jollies from denying people water, sleep, and food in addition to beating them. 

and how do you know she enjoys it? how do you know she's not just doing her duty to punish the sinners?

[Constantinople]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It would be fun to have a poll about now.  I hate starting thread though, and have never made a poll.  "Who do you want to win the Game of Thrones?" 

Hot Pie

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A good kidney pie is all about the ingredients. Flour, lard, water, eggs, milk - easy enough. But the meat? Peacetime or not, getting your hands on a good bottom round steak and calves' kidneys is not easy. I mean, some people settle for plain old beef kidneys. Got no right to cook anything, them. Oh, and the gravy! Don't get me started on the gravy. Very difficult to get right. See, a lot of people give up on the gravy. You cannot give up on the gravy. No gravy, no pie.

It's not just a recipe for kidney pie, but a theory of government.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

So, Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion.  He didn't force himself on her or try to make her situation any worse than it was.  He didn't want to marry her either.  Tyrion was FORCED to marry her as well.  But would it have killed her to be cordial upon seeing his effort on her behalf?  I remember her always looking at him like she was looking at a pile of shit.  I'm not saying she had to kow tow to him, I'm saying she could have simply been less of a snotty bitch.  

But we have to consider Sansa is supposed to be about 14 when she marries Tyrion.  She was at the emotional level of doodling on her notebook Sansa + Joffrey forever until that blew up hideously in her face, culminating with her being caught in the cat's paw, forced to stare at her father's head on a pike until Joffrey decided he would humiliate and torment her by marrying her to his joke of an uncle.  Despite her girlish dreams about Loras, she did start to soften towards Tyrion and recognized he would not take advantage of her and was almost warming to him when Joffrey and Margery's wedding banquet went awry.  Book and show, she drew attention to herself in front of Joffrey to pick up the cup when Joffrey was humiliating Tyrion at the banquet because she felt sympathy for his public abuse by Joffrey.

For a child forced to live amongst the family that killed her father and brother, chased off her sister and forced her into marriage amidst abusing her, she could have been completely closed off to Tyrion forever. 

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It would be fun to have a poll about now.  I hate starting thread though, and have never made a poll.  "Who do you want to win the Game of Thrones?" 

• Dani
• Jon
• Any Stark Kid
• White Walkers
• Tyrion
• High Septon
• Davos
• Small Folk
• Littlefinger
• No one, destroy that sucker!
• Someone else *write it in
• etc that I haven't thought of, ha

I hope Gendry, completely Hulked up from rowing around the various seas for several years now, crushes everyone's skulls like The Mountain did to Oberyn.

[Tikichick]

The walk of atonement isn't done by everyone to atone for their sinful ways.  The walk of atonement is forced upon those who will not confess and capitulate to the High Sparrow's commands.

Not to mention, Lancel is male, on this show that means he would be humiliated other ways if he were being forced to atone.