S04.E10: Munchkins

[teddysmom]

Quote

I was delighted they showed how similar she is to Elizabeth with their joint reaction to Henry and the garage door v. tennis ball.

I thought this was more just a woman's perspective. Being stressed out and that banging would have driven me crazy. I really wanted one of them to go yell at Henry. 

I died laughing when Elizabeth asked Paige "what you think we kidnap people and kill them?" and so wanted Paige to answer "Mom have you not been watching the show?" 

So what was the point of the sex fake out if Elizabeth is still going over there? I thought she did this to blackmail Don and end the friendship.  "Hi I'm here to remind you of that awful thing you fake did with me". 

[tennisgurl]

They really have been cutting through the supporting cast this season. I mean, this show has always killed reoccurring characters, but this season, we have been losing characters who have been there from the beginning. I mean, Nina and Gaad are both dead, and Martha is shipped off to Russia. It makes me rather concerned for the rest of the supporting characters. 

[Ina123]

It was never intended to purposely break up the friendship (altho it will if the wife finds out). It was always a mission to trap Don.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Ina123

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

So what was the point of the sex fake out if Elizabeth is still going over there? I thought she did this to blackmail Don and end the friendship.  "Hi I'm here to remind you of that awful thing you fake did with me". 

If Elizabeth was who she is pretending to be she'd still be friends with his wife at this point. Reminding him of what he did makes perfect sense. Young Hee is just collateral damage--the friendship is future collateral damage.

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

They really have been cutting through the supporting cast this season. I mean, this show has always killed reoccurring characters, but this season, we have been losing characters who have been there from the beginning. I mean, Nina and Gaad are both dead, and Martha is shipped off to Russia. It makes me rather concerned for the rest of the supporting characters. 

 

Don't worry, we still have Pastor Tim and Alice. ::sigh::

[tennisgurl]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Don't worry, we still have Pastor Tim and Alice. ::sigh::

Oy. If Oleg or Arkady or even Stan end up six feet under, and Pastor Tim and Alice continue to hang around, I am tipping over some furniture. 

[JennyMominFL]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

They really have been cutting through the supporting cast this season. I mean, this show has always killed reoccurring characters, but this season, we have been losing characters who have been there from the beginning. I mean, Nina and Gaad are both dead, and Martha is shipped off to Russia. It makes me rather concerned for the rest of the supporting characters. 

 

I think they hired on George RR Martin as a writer.

[ahpny]

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Elizabeth was hilarious with her "that's crazy! We would never do that!" But it was frankly more insulting than crazy--you think we'd kill the Pastor and leave his wife running around blabbing? Give us some credit. I don't know why Elizabeth's lying so blatantly about how they'd never do this stuff. I mean, is she really believing what she's saying? It's Elizabeth so maybe.

This juxtaposed with Elizabeth’s big “we’ll never lie to you” speech to Paige was particularly troubling. Trust indeed.

And while we’re on irksome Elizabeth behavior, it’s pretty off-putting that after all the murders (and torture – recall the son of the Weinberg housekeeper) she’s unhesitatingly committed, the Don con is what gives Elizabeth pause. Boo hoo, she’s hurting her one “friend” and dismantling their “close” family. This is merely an unconsummated honey trap with no physical injury whatsoever. Where was any of that concern when she was whacking an innocent old woman in that warehouse or the many others she’s killed and compromised? “For the cause,” of course, yes that’s what evil people tell themselves to keep on doing what they're doing, indeed.

Quote

Kudos to Stan's son Mathew for being a completely believable teenager...he so had it down. And his efforts with the overwrought Paige were perfect...especially as he sized up the church boy hugging Paige. But joining the youth group at church...no frigging way. 

This show is adapt at depicting children and teenagers realistically. They look, sound and act like real teenagers, which is much more than many shows. However, I half expected Paige to report to her parents on Matthew's comments about Stan's work. She didn't do that, so no free lance spycraft yet for Paige. Perhaps soon.

[teddysmom]

Quote

I think they hired on George RR Martin as a writer.

No he's busy trying to write a character for GoT that is "a worse monster than Walter White".  His words. 

[Bannon]

41 minutes ago, ahpny said:

This juxtaposed with Elizabeth’s big “we’ll never lie to you” speech to Paige was particularly troubling. Trust indeed.

And while we’re on irksome Elizabeth behavior, it’s pretty off-putting that after all the murders (and torture – recall the son of the Weinberg housekeeper) she’s unhesitatingly committed, the Don con is what gives Elizabeth pause. Boo hoo, she’s hurting her one “friend” and dismantling their “close” family. This is merely an unconsummated honey trap with no physical injury whatsoever. Where was any of that concern when she was whacking an innocent old woman in that warehouse or the many others she’s killed and compromised? “For the cause,” of course, yes that’s what evil people tell themselves to keep on doing what they're doing, indeed.

This show is adapt at depicting children and teenagers realistically. They look, sound and act like real teenagers, which is much more than many shows. However, I half expected Paige to report to her parents on Matthew's comments about Stan's work. She didn't do that, so no free lance spycraft yet for Paige. Perhaps soon.

For some reason, the time she dropped a car on some poor schmuck's head, just so her target could get his job, really bugged me the most. Every time she plays the "incredulous that my bratty teenager thinks I could be so awful" card, I think of her kicking out that car jack, and the human being underneath the car getting treated like a cockroach spotted on a kitchen floor. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Every time she plays the "incredulous that my bratty teenager thinks I could be so awful" card, I think of her kicking out that car jack, and the human being underneath the car getting treated like a cockroach spotted on a kitchen floor. 

Ironically, it's got to be terrible for her too. She's put a lot of work into being this awful. She's been raised to value toughness. She's been powerless and hates that feeling. But for Paige she has to act like this is crazy talk. This is a woman who kidnapped a guy and planned to murder him off the clock as a personal revenge! She doesn't much respect the person she pretends to be with Paige. Surely part of the reason she wanted Paige to know who she (Paige or Elizabeth herself) was was because she preferred the real version. Instead it's more important than ever she pretend not to be that. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Ironically, it's got to be terrible for her too. She's put a lot of work into being this awful. She's been raised to value toughness. She's been powerless and hates that feeling. But for Paige she has to act like this is crazy talk. This is a woman who kidnapped a guy and planned to murder him off the clock as a personal revenge! She doesn't much respect the person she pretends to be with Paige. Surely part of the reason she wanted Paige to know who she (Paige or Elizabeth herself) was was because she preferred the real version. Instead it's more important than ever she pretend not to be that. 

If the writers can ever get to the point where Paige becomes fully aware of who her mother is, and then totally rejects her for it, that would be terrific drama, especially if E has to flee back to Russia. I think that woud be better dramatically than E ever getting arrested. 

[Anela]

I sometimes wonder if Stan suspects them, and that's why he keeps blabbing  - but if that were the case, he'd be spying on them, the way he spied on Martha. 

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I thought this was more just a woman's perspective. Being stressed out and that banging would have driven me crazy. I really wanted one of them to go yell at Henry. 

Believe me, you don't have to be a woman to be incredibly annoyed by the noise Henry was making.

1 hour ago, ahpny said:

This juxtaposed with Elizabeth’s big “we’ll never lie to you” speech to Paige was particularly troubling. Trust indeed.

And while we’re on irksome Elizabeth behavior, it’s pretty off-putting that after all the murders (and torture – recall the son of the Weinberg housekeeper) she’s unhesitatingly committed, the Don con is what gives Elizabeth pause. Boo hoo, she’s hurting her one “friend” and dismantling their “close” family. This is merely an unconsummated honey trap with no physical injury whatsoever. Where was any of that concern when she was whacking an innocent old woman in that warehouse or the many others she’s killed and compromised?

I think killing the old woman last season was one of the few times Elizabeth genuinely felt remorse.

I'm not saying she felt as bad as she should have. But compared to the times when she's killed an innocent person and simply shrugged it off, I thought that one hit her pretty hard.

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I think Gabriel is being too easy on Elizabeth and Phillip now.  Now simply because Elizabeth does not want to lose a friend she has become too close to who is supposed to be a target they are going to change the mission?  Thats a pretty weak excuse

As Sepinwall noted in his review that I posted, Gabe was lying his ass off.  It was just Gabe handling Elizabeth, continuing to make her trust and feel obligated to him, because he cares.

7 hours ago, shura said:

 

I don't know if Paige can reasonably connect Martha to her family. What dots can she connect? She doesn't know anything about this. She could, of course, start thinking that her parents are responsible for absolutely everything suspicious, Soviet- or FBI-related, she doesn't need a solid reason for that, but that's not really figuring anything out. That's just paranoia.

None right now, but if somehow Stan tries to connect more with his son, and gives a few details in answering questions?  It could.  It could go either way.  I can believably envision Stan telling him unimportant stuff like "yeah, this pretend husband was only there 3 days a week."  They would probably have an idea of the pattern, from the super or other neighbors.

7 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

They can't make Stan more of a moron than he already is, the dude doesn't even know that his kid is drinking his beer?  There are only two people in that house.  If Stan isn't drinking it, it is obvious that his kid is.  Stan has no awareness when it comes to anything that is going on around him.

This show has been on the air for all these years, and I don't think I have seen any competent "Americans" on it yet.

By making that threat about the tape, the pastor's wife made her entire family a target.  They are going to have to be dealt with sooner or later, whether a tape exists or not. 

I am still finding it very difficult to believe that Elizabeth is turning into a caring human being.  It doesn't seem to be in her DNA, and the writers seem to have pulled that out of nothing but thin air.  It wasn't all that long ago when she killed her other friend.

I don't think Stan is a moron.  He's the one who suspected and proved Martha was bad.  He's the one who never believed the convenient suicide.  When he first came on the show he had PSTD from his long term embedded with skin heads duty.  He was suspecting everyone, including the Jennings, but his wife told him that was simply nuts, basically, "honey, you are home now, relax, get back into our real life."  That made perfect sense.  Stan was still in that state when Nina happened, and Nina WAS being honest with him until she was caught, he was getting information.  He's not "super spy" but I don't think he's a bad spy either.

I don't think the pastor's wife making the tape worsened her situation.  On the contrary, I think it was brilliant, logical, and I hope to hell she really did it.  I wouldn't have made it at home, or called lawyers from home either.  Then again, she's about ready to pop, and her hormones are all over the place, so who knows?

As far as Elizabeth?  This is not being pulled out of thin air, this is years of a TV show watching many events that are changing her.  I completely believed it.

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

Does anyone know if Gaad was running to the glass door to escape the men or was it a suicide mission, since he knew they were KGB?  I think that Gaad could have still been useful to the KGB.  He was still in contract with Stan and they could have continued to meet and Gaad could have gotten current intel from Stan....and then pass it to the KGB.  They didn't realize that Gaad was not a good target though.

Did the scene with Martha's dad seem odd to anyone else?  Perhaps, I have forgotten when he was at Martha's wedding, but it seemed from the phone calls that Martha's dad was more elderly, frail, and had a little dementia.  That's the the way Martha addressed it when she called home.  You know, "Don't wake daddy." I thought he was a little senile. Even his voice was rather sickly.  He sounded weak and pitiful as he called Martha his little girl.  That's not the same man we saw having a cocktail with Stan.  Now, he's full of vigor?  Hmmm....And he just happened to be in town?  Too contrived for me. 

I think Gaad was trying to escape, which really?  Was his only option.  They weren't going to leave without him, one way or another.

No, the dad scene didn't seem weird to me at all.  It's been what?  8 months now?  Him coming to check on what was happening with his daughter's disappearance seems very logical to me. 

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

My frustration with this show, which I have liked for the most part, is that it could have been so much more. I think they were afraid of making it to slow-moving, so they had to have E & P running ops at breakneck speed, which required the targets to be, generally, idiots. Only the Martha op was allowed to breathe a little, giving the target some nuance and depth. I bought it because they took the time to show how deperately lonely Martha was, and desperately lonely people do very irrational things.  I've never understood how the character of Stan was developed; a guy who was able to operate, uber-competently, undercover, in the Aryan Brotherhood for years, but becomes a blundering blabbermouth once stationed in Washington D.C., to the point where his target plays him like fiddle, because she's gorgeous, and Mr. Undercover Skinhead is lonely. Huh?

In any case, I always say all is forgiven with a well written resolution. If Gaad's  murder can act as a catalyst to get Stan to do his job better, good. It appears that Oleg has been made generally aware of the bioweapons op being run now, and Stan is supposed to be trying to manipulate Oleg. Maybe there is an intersection  between the Gaad murder, which Stan or Arkady could make Oleg aware of, and Oleg's newly obtained knowledge of the bioweapons op, which can present some intresting scenarios. The previews hold out the possibility that Don isn't going to be a complete moron, so there is reason for optimism  that the writers will not make a mess of it.

Martha's op, Kimmie's op, training Hans op, Young Hee's op, 25 years at the lab William's op, Nina's long term op...  I don't know, I think many ops are allowed to breathe, and I really love how long it took Elizabeth with Young Hee.  It's been almost a year now for that one.  I already kind of addresses Stan earlier, so I'll just add, there is a difference between being at home and being embedded in the Aryan Brotherhood world as a spy.  Of course you are suspicious of everything in the 2nd, but at home?  You could easily go insane suspecting every store clerk, neighbor, repairman, etc.  I think Stan's doing a good job already, but I agree with you that Gaad's murder is going to put him in extremely high gear.  Frankly, the entire FBI will go into attack mode.

6 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I thought Gaad was trying to escape, even if he knew it was useless. But, when he ran, one of the Russians tackled him and sent him crashing through the glass door.

Absolutely.  At first I though, come on Gaad, play for time here!  Then I realized he already knew he'd have to escape or he would give them information that could be used to hurt the USA.

5 hours ago, Gella said:

That's a bit of a stereotype. Domestic violence was not really a widespread problem at that time. Especially with the way Phillip described his mother. Drinking though -- definitely.

What?  Domestic Violence has always been a widespread problem!  There just weren't laws against it, and people didn't talk about it.  Today it's sometimes not just a dirty little secret the family hides and neighbors ignore because "you don't interfere between a man and wife" but believe me when I tell you, it's nothing new.

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

 

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

My concern with Paige taking Matthew to the church is that if Pastor Tim and Alice know that Matthew's dad is an FBI agent, who is friends with the Jennings family, Pastor Tim and Alice will assume that they are spying on Stan and that he is their mark.  They have no way to know that that is NOT the case. I mean, it is rather unbelievable that they don't actively seek info about and from him, but the only thing that comes from him is stuff that falls in their laps.  lol

They could, or they could end up seeing Stan as someone they could go to easily to tell the FBI about the Jennings.

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I hope that Stan doesn't get paranoid.  I mean, it is understandable. His office has suffered some serious misfortunes. Gene bites the dust, then Martha disappears, now Gaad is dead.....PLUS Nina, someone who he loved was killed.  He might start taking this personally. 

He will.  No doubt. 

4 hours ago, shura said:

And the way Alice was saying "The police told me to call the State Department, and the State Department told me Ethiopia is a Soviet satellite state! Soviet, Carl!" made me think that it was news to her. You'd think the Tims would know a detail like that about the country he is going into. Maybe it wouldn't matter to them, but shouldn't she have known that?

Well, it's an occupational hazard to some extent. He works at the FBI, in counterintelligence, dealing with Russian spies. It would be like a doctor starting to worry that he sees only sick people for some reason.

The Pastor and his wife's idiocy may be understandable in one way.  Maybe they believe God will protect them because they are doing good work.  Although, you'd think history would have told them that believers are not immune.  I don't get religious fanatics, but again, I keep thinking of the pastor as a less nasty version of the dad in The Poisonwood Bible.

3 hours ago, BananaRama said:

Isn't it odd that the show wasn't more subtle about the 3 Russian guys visiting Gaad's room being "Russian"?  Their accents were very strong.  That must be why Gaad tried to escape - if the Russians aren't even going to try to hide the fact that they are Russian, then yeah - this is going to end badly.  He might as well die now then spill secrets and then die.

Agents with perfect accents were used for more important/delicate work than B&E and abductions.  Most KGB didn't try, and couldn't if they did, to hide their accents.  The only unbelievable part of the Jennings' story is where they do things that regular KGB teams or Arkady's group would handle, like abductions and B&E.  That's just show stuff, because it would be pretty boring watching them develop someone like Young Hee for a year (which is what they'd really be doing most of the time.)

 

ETA

Did we see subtle shoulder pads under Paige's sweater?  It sure seemed like it!

Edited May 19, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Stan is a moron.  He's the one who suspected and proved Martha was bad.  He's the one who never believed the convenient suicide. 

I think Stan also just prioritizes what's important. It's like when Paige looked around the house and said "You guys aren't much into home decor, huh?" and Matthew joked that it was all they talked about. Stan doesn't care about home. He's in a bachelor pad that happens to look like a suburban family home. His real life is at work, and even his relationship with Matthew is not about him being domestic. He's not keeping track of the beers in his fridge because he probably doesn't really care if Matthew's drinking them. After all, it doesn't seem like Matthew is getting drunk all the time or anything. He's just now buying beer for two guys instead of one whenever Matthew's there. He does perk up when something interesting catches his interest, like when Henry said Philip was often traveling. That's something he no doubt filed away just because Philip was his friend and that maybe surprised him a bit.

It's almost a running joke on this show how "good" these kids are. Matthew has ever opportunity to have parties at Stan's house. He must have friends in the neighborhood from when he lived there, know where to hang out. He's got a car. But mostly he chooses to entertain the 13 year old boy next door and hopefully ask his 16-year-old sister in for coffee.

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

As far as Elizabeth?  This is not being pulled out of thin air, this is years of a TV show watching many events that are changing her.  I completely believed it.

And one of the biggest things that's happened to her was falling in love with Philip. When that became real, the family became even more real. She even talks to Brad about how she shut down her feelings after she was raped and now she was starting to feel things again. In fact, I would also tie that to the time she had sex with the hotel manager and got turned on. She's more open now in large part because of her relationship with Philip. It's like a situation I once read in a novel where a woman who'd been through the blitz started having screaming nightmares years after. The implication was that she only started to deal with things when she felt safe enough to do so. Her being at home with a loving husband wasn't triggering, it was safe.

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Domestic Violence has always been a widespread problem! 

One which alcohol surely always makes worse!

[Conan Troutman]

8 hours ago, shura said:

I don't know if Paige can reasonably connect Martha to her family. What dots can she connect? She doesn't know anything about this. She could, of course, start thinking that her parents are responsible for absolutely everything suspicious, Soviet- or FBI-related, she doesn't need a solid reason for that, but that's not really figuring anything out. That's just paranoia.

Here are the dots:
- Her dad's been absent a couple days a week for quite some time
- They live next door to an FBI agent
- Someone at work or said FBI agent turns out to be a Russian spy/working for the KGB
- Just when that secretary's cover was blown, her dad suddenly spends way more time at home

She doesn't know about the exact timing yet, but the first three should be enough to make her go "wait a minute!" and wanting to further poke Matthew or maybe Stan until she learns about the fourth one. The second one is actually a false lead, but Paige can't know that living next door to Stan had nothing to do with Martha, so it can lead to a suspicion nonetheless.

6 hours ago, jrlr said:

And what was the deal with Kimmie telling Phillip that she discovered her dad is CIA, not State Department?  

This could foreshadow something about the Kimmie story, too, but this was mostly about Philip and Paige. Maybe it makes him understand Paige's need for confiding with an adult better, maybe it's something else, but it was clearly there as a parallel to Philip's own daughter. 

6 hours ago, attica said:

I calculated the odds of Elizabeth saying 'yes' at the end at even money. Could have gone either way. I was rooting for her to say yes, but it wouldn't have surprised me if she hadn't.

Yep, I could totally see both outcomes. I'm glad she said "yes", and while it probably ultimately won't matter as far as the Young Hee situation is concerned, it was still a very important moment for her character. Elizabeth is starting to show cracks, too. 

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

They really have been cutting through the supporting cast this season. I mean, this show has always killed reoccurring characters, but this season, we have been losing characters who have been there from the beginning. I mean, Nina and Gaad are both dead, and Martha is shipped off to Russia. It makes me rather concerned for the rest of the supporting characters. 

I've been wondering if next season will be the last for that reason and the show is slowly moving towards the endgame.

[AliShibaz]

6 hours ago, jrlr said:

I don't like Paige as a character mainly because I just don't like the actress (maybe if they did something about her eyebrows and put her in jeans like a normal 80s teenager she'd be easier to take), but I do understand her teenage impulsiveness.  That includes telling Pastor Groovyhair and his 1950's era wife about her parents, and it includes her taking Matthew into the church with her.  Paige's rebellion seems perfectly understandable to me - I came from an ultra-left home and knew from an early age that the only thing I could do to REALLY upset my parents would be to convert to Christianity and marry a Republican (I did neither), so I get Paige turning to tradition and religion to fill some void her parents don't or can't fulfill.  

I thought her last suggestion about waiting to take the tape was brilliant and it indicated that she is already becoming a spy-ette, if only to save her family or make up for the mess she created.  I'm still shaking my head over poor Gaad's demise, but what a great scene.  

And what was the deal with Kimmie telling Phillip that she discovered her dad is CIA, not State Department?  

I don't like the actress either.  I know that I will be very much in the minority, but I find her quite unattractive. I'd use a more descriptive and more accurate term but I've seen some other people do that on another forum and they were roundly roasted, flamed, screamed at, etc.

However, my biggest complaint about her has nothing to do with her looks. After watching this episode, I read several people applaud her for her wonderful acting skill. Again, I have to disagree. I don't think it's valid to call her a skilled actress because it seems to me she has only ever displayed two different moods. I don't know exactly how to describe this. But I think it's referred to as "range". It seems to me she just has no range. It's very hard to criticize her because she was plucked out of obscurity and picked to play this very young girl. Anytime a child actor is picked in this way, the show runners are taking a big chance that if the show runs for several years, she will become talented as she grows.

Surely not everyone is a talented actor. I would venture a guess that a good part of the writing of this show is designed to compensate for any of the young actors who just didn't develop much talent. I expect a great deal of criticism for saying this. But the alternative is to believe that every child actor picked does develop talent as a young adult and that is silly. The actor who plays Matthew is a prime example. He seems to me to be the worst actor of them all and his role seems to be very sharply  limited. I wonder if that was done after the show runners realized that he was unable to project any kind of emotion. I would guess that if he did develop more talent, they would have given him a larger part. I don't have any opinion about Henry. But it seems very odd that he gets almost no speaking parts. So many of his contributions do not involve him speaking at all. Remember when he broke into the neighbor's house to use their computer? He spent a fair bit of time on screen. But he was all alone and didn't speak a word. On the episode last night, his largest part consisted of him offscreen banging a tennis ball into the garage door. I know that I could be wrong. But doesn't that seem odd to anyone else?

I've only ever seen Paige display two emotions and they both seem very similar to each other. In fact ... (I'm going to stop now because I anticipate a lot of criticism for expressing these opinions - espectially for saying the actress is just not at all actractive. I'm sorry. But that is honestly the way I feel. I'd like to write a lot more and express an even stronger opinoin. But I anticipate much criticism ahead.

Edited May 19, 2016 by AliShibaz

[madam magpie]

Quote

As Sepinwall noted in his review that I posted, Gabe was lying his ass off.  It was just Gabe handling Elizabeth, continuing to make her trust and feel obligated to him, because he cares.

Exactly. This is the KGB. Elizabeth's feeling do not matter, and we all know it. But if she thinks her bosses care about her when she's really struggling, she's more likely to put herself aside for the greater good...because they wouldn't ask if it weren't really important. (Of course they would, but in her mind.) She's totally being controlled and manipulated by her govt, even when they lead her to think she has a choice.

Edited May 19, 2016 by madam magpie

[scartact]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

As far as Elizabeth?  This is not being pulled out of thin air, this is years of a TV show watching many events that are changing her.  I completely believed it.

Very much agree with this. The show's [main] character arcs are not flat and static; the characters are all changing and growing in different ways, whether you believe this is a positive shift or not. Here, we're actually seeing Elizabeth approach a very real crossroads and even just allowing her that moment to pick her feelings over completing the mission is significant.

On another note, this has been mentioned previously, but I was definitely excited to hear more of Philip's background when he and Paige were talking and it was interesting to see his initial hesitance on providing details. I'm definitely getting a better sense that Philip is more motivated by survival instincts, while Elizabeth by her soldier-like dedication and loyalty. 

[SlovakPrincess]

Gaad!  Nooooo!  Not Agent John Boy Gaad!  :(

I nearly died laughing when Elizabeth got so offended that Paige would think they were "so stupid that we'd leave Alice [alive]?!"   Oh, Elizabeth.   You do you, I guess.  

Oleg gently teasing Tatiana about getting loud in bed (after she told him last week why she wanted him to be quiet during sex) was sort of adorable.  

Poor Martha's dad.   :(     Yes, Martha is the most loyal person in the world ... that's kinda what got her in this trouble.  
 

Edited May 19, 2016 by SlovakPrincess

[AllyB]

18 hours ago, mjc570 said:

Sure, you're right, but I wonder how many other people Gaad would have told specifically he was going to Thailand, since he told Stan when he was at Gaad's house, not at work with other employees around.  And, I don't think Stan would have mentioned it to any other non-FBI people, since he doesn't seem to have many (if any) other friends, although he might have mentioned it to Matthew.

Gaad's in laws live in Thailand (they relocated there from Vietnam) and the reason for their holiday was for his wife to visit her family. It was no secret at all that Gaad was in Thailand.

[SunnyBeBe]

I have read a lot of criticism about the actress who plays Paige, but I don't really have any issue with her talent.  I think she's good enough.  Her character annoys the stuff out of me, but that's what she is getting paid to do.  I don't like much about her at all, but that's how they have written her role.  I don't think it's her acting that's the issue, but to each his own.  I've never cared for the acting of Jennifer Lopez, Julia Roberts or Kristen Stewart, but they have many fans that do like them.

[SlovakPrincess]

I really don't mind Paige (or the actress).

She's in a crazy situation.  If her parents were serial murderers, would the audience be like "ugh, keep your mouth shut!  Of course you might have to move to Russia if you keep yakking!"?   Actually, her parents have killed -- Paige just doesn't know that, although she had her fears while Tim was missing.  She lives in a culture that deeply distrusts and fears what her parents are, to the point of labeling them evil.

She is navigating this new world as well as can be expected.  She is in denial because she wants her life to be normal again ... pretty understandable for a teen.  

Edited May 19, 2016 by SlovakPrincess

[Chaos Theory]

It was mentioned awhile back that Stan has thrown a lot of Travel Agent work Philip's way.  It is possible that Gaad got "a friend and family" rate through Philip to Thailand and Philip reported it...and you know.  

[sistermagpie]

Yeah, I feel like everything about Paige is justified by how she’s been written over the years. I can’t think of anything she’s done that I didn’t buy as something Paige the character would do. Some scenes I’ve thought the actress did a good job, sometimes really not, but I still always buy the character. She’s just a very different girl than, say, Kimmie. Her growth over the years seems especially believable to me, and very much like her mother in many ways.

I do think critics sometimes overpraise her, which is mostly when I think about how I don't think she's that amazing. It was funny today somebody said she was full of all these “subtle” expressions and I had to laugh because there are times when I’m surprised when Paige is in a scene that other characters aren’t saying, “Paige? What’s wrong?” Because she’s so often looking so over the top stricken.

[Chaos Theory]

I guess you and me differ Sistermagpie because I have always thought Holly Taylor has done fantastic work as Paige.  I don't think there is a single bad actor in the cast which is one of the things I love about the show.  This might be one of the few shows I outright buy unless it ends by giving me a rage attack.

[shura]

2 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

Here are the dots:
- Her dad's been absent a couple days a week for quite some time
- They live next door to an FBI agent
- Someone at work or said FBI agent turns out to be a Russian spy/working for the KGB
- Just when that secretary's cover was blown, her dad suddenly spends way more time at home

She doesn't know about the exact timing yet, but the first three should be enough to make her go "wait a minute!" and wanting to further poke Matthew or maybe Stan until she learns about the fourth one. The second one is actually a false lead, but Paige can't know that living next door to Stan had nothing to do with Martha, so it can lead to a suspicion nonetheless.

Paige would also need to learn quite a few details about Martha that she doesn't know yet. She'd have to know that Martha was honeypotted, married a KGB agent and had him stay over at her place several nights a week. I suppose it's not impossible that Stan could blab about this to Matthew, too, if he hasn't already (I can't remember at the moment what exactly Matthew has already told Paige).

Even then, Paige could only know that a Philip-Martha connection is a possibility, not a certainty. Not that it would stop her from jumping to a (correct) conclusion and starting to believe it. But it wouldn't be that much different from how she connected the dots about what happened to Pastor Tim in Ethiopia. She wasn't wrong in thinking that it was all very suspicious, that the KGB could have easily made Tim disappear there and her parents would benefit from it - the whole means, motive and opportunity thing. So she came to a conclusion, started having a strong suspicion - and was wrong. With Martha, she would be suspecting correctly, but only by accident. She can do that right now, without knowing much about anything. Matthew isn't really revealing to her any facts she must have for an accidentally correct suspicion.

[hellmouse]

I think that Paige might think the "missing spy secretary" aka Martha worked with Philip and Elizabeth. Matthew says that a secretary disappeared and that she was a spy, and that her father is upset. Paige knows her parents are spies, and they've told her they might all have to leave (including Henry - they can't just leave him behind).

So I could see Paige wondering if this missing secretary was someone that her parents knew, and why she had to leave. She could ask them if anyone they work with had to leave recently, and what happens to the family or friends left behind. Does someone tell them what happened, or do they just disappear forever?

Alternatively, she could think that her parents made the secretary disappear, as she worried they did to Pastor Tim. But she might not be as quick to jump to that conclusion after she was wrong about Pastor Tim being kidnapped by the Soviets. 

I did think it was interesting that Martha's poor father didn't know anything about where Martha was. Obviously no one from Moscow has gotten in touch with the parents. Would it have piqued Stan's curiosity if the father had gotten an update?

[SlovakPrincess]

I wonder if Paige is going to get drunk or stoned with Matthew at some point and say something she shouldn't.   Perhaps Stoned Kimmie was foreshadowing.  And Paige and Matthew have started hanging out and drinking beer ....  

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I wonder if Paige is going to get drunk or stoned with Matthew at some point and say something she shouldn't.   Perhaps Stoned Kimmie was foreshadowing.  And Paige and Matthew have started hanging out and drinking beer ....  

I think Kimmie was probably planning to tell Jim before she got high. Or at least knew it was a possibility. Paige already blabbed when she was sober..

Edited May 20, 2016 by sistermagpie

[madam magpie]

5 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I nearly died laughing when Elizabeth got so offended that Paige would think they were "so stupid that we'd leave Alice [alive]?!"   Oh, Elizabeth.   You do you, I guess. 
 

This was hilarious and my favorite moment...followed by, "You can't be Russian spies IN Russia!"

Do we all think Tatiana is playing Oleg? Another secret mission someone can't tell his boss about has to be a set-up.. right??

[lark37]

On 5/19/2016 at 11:38 PM, gwhh said:

I don't think Alice made a tape. Sounds to complicated for a preacher wife. Plus the office bugs/wire tap did not pick up anything about it. 

As a former pastor's wife, it sounds like you're implying that a preacher's wife is too simple to think of the idea of making a tape as a safeguard-ouch!  But, I do agree with you that I'm fairly certain Phillip said that the office bugs didn't pick up anything about Alice making a tape and leaving it with a lawyer.  Doesn't mean she didn't make a tape at all though.  I think that "tape" may come back to haunt the Jennings.

Edited May 20, 2016 by lark37
Reworded to clarify.

[Addlepated]

I can't figure out how Elizabeth is going to transition from "Dude we totally banged" to "...so give me your level 4 access code."

Next week's preview shows 

Spoiler

her telling him that she's pregnant,  

and I still don't see how that gets her his access code.

Does anyone else have an inkling as to how this plays out?

[bredcrumbs]

On another topic, as if this show doesn't have enough going on ... in our gay household, we smell a gay storyline brewing with Matthew Beeman. First, he expresses a relative (compared to Henry) lack of pubertine interest in Brooke Shields; now, he doesn't seem unhappy to be introduced to a male member of Paige's church's youth choir. (Inviting Paige into the house in the first place? Simple boredom. Or maybe he wants a gal pal.)

On the one hand, "The Americans" doesn't really have time for this sort of thing, does it? On the other hand, that is spot-on closeted-young-man behavior.

On 5/19/2016 at 8:12 PM, tennisgurl said:

Poor Gaad! He actually made it to retirement, and now this!

He was three weeks from retirement! Just in the other direction.

[madam magpie]

2 hours ago, Addlepated said:

I can't figure out how Elizabeth is going to transition from "Dude we totally banged" to "...so give me your level 4 access code."

Next week's preview shows 

  Hide contents

her telling him that she's pregnant,  

and I still don't see how that gets her his access code.

Does anyone else have an inkling as to how this plays out?

She can threaten to tell Young Hee about the fake affair if he doesn't give up the codes, but I hope that's when Don wises up to the con!

[AllyB]

I've been wondering about the story Philip told Paige about his mother. He said she was tough and when his boss tried to only give him half pay his mother went to see him and after that he got the rest of his money. The immediate implication is that his mother was so tough she could physically threaten the man and make him regret trying to cheat Mischa out of his money. But as the story was cut with scenes of Elizabeth working her latest sexual con, I wondered if his mother 'earned' the other half of her son's wages. We know that Philip admire's Elizabeth's toughness and that a huge part of that toughness is being able to compartmentalize her sex life into something she can use (as does Philip). So I think that what happened with his mother and his boss was a much more disturbing story than Paige realised.

[SunnyBeBe]

I have read a lot of criticism about the actress who plays Paige, but I don't really have any issue with her talent.  I think she's good enough.  Her character annoys the stuff out of me, but that's what she is getting paid to do.  I don't like much about her at all, but that's how they have written her role. She does fluctuate between being petulant and demanding. That's about it.  I don't think it's her acting that's the issue, but to each his own.  I've never cared for the acting of Jennifer Lopez, Julia Roberts or Kristen Stewart, but they have many fans that do like them.

I don't see Paige connecting many dots unless it's the result of a contrived script that hand feeds her. She appears clueless on many matters .Page wasn't even smart enough to realize that her parents would be crazy to abduct Pastor Tim and leave Alice home and free to rat them out.  And if that keeps happening, we'll know that it's a result of Stan being very careless with intel from his office. Sharing that info with Matthew or the Jennings family is just plain wrong. I'm surprised that her parents have to sit her down and explain why hanging with Matthew and sharing her feelings might not be a good idea, but apparently, that's another potential problem that they just didn't think about.  They sure give her a lot of credit, which is absurd for the trouble she's caused and the immature way she blows up and storms off. 

[Zhenya93]

I love that we are getting more of Philip's story's, but why just tiny pieces at a time? I wonder if the fact that his father was always "tired" and working with trees had anything to do with the GULAG system in Tobolsk? Could Philip and his mother have followed the father there? And how common was it for young boys to have jobs in the Soviet Union, I thought the sports system and other cultural, fine arts curriculums were encouraged, but maybe not so soon after the war...I'm glad Paige finally brought up Henry. I can't wait to see what he has to offer the Jennings family as he has always seemed to be much more resourceful, than Paige. ;)

[RedHawk]

On May 19, 2016 at 11:49 PM, madam magpie said:

It was the 1980s. Helicopter parenting wasn't a thing yet, and Stan is the dad, not the mom. I'm not surprised he isn't around much to spend time with Matthew

[RedHawk]

^ Weird, I didn't mean to insert the above quote in my post and for some reason I can't get it out nor could I add a comment underneath. 

Anyway, I like to think Henry has the whole situation sussed out. Yeah, sure, he was listening to his Walkman while Alice ranted about the tape she had made and how she would expose them.

Paige at some point is going to tell him and his answer is going to be, "Well, yeah. Have you seen the weapons and false ID cache they've hid in the basement? And by the way, Dad's kill count is probably in the dozens and I'm pretty sure Mom's is higher."

Edited May 20, 2016 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, lark37 said:

 I think that "tape" may come back to haunt the Jennings.

The thing about the tape is that if she made it it's dangerous because somebody could listen to it. But even if she didn't make it, or even if she destroyed this one, she could make one at any time. It's not like her destroying it means the threat's over. It just means she lowered her weapon.

8 hours ago, bredcrumbs said:

On the one hand, "The Americans" doesn't really have time for this sort of thing, does it? On the other hand, that is spot-on closeted-young-man behavior.

I would really love it if this was the case. In fact, I think that would make for a more thematic story than him crushing on Paige and just checking out the competition, as it sort of seems like it was being set up as. It would be a secret, one that could hurt him especially in 1983, and one that Paige would surely keep for him if he confided it in her. (Wonder how Pastor Tim feels about gay people--I feel like it would be anachronistic for him to be too open about it, but at the same time it's not like he would have to be a raging homophobe.)

The gay secret would just be a great wrinkle to Paige's understanding of honesty. It would also be kind of funny given Matthew's liking Rocky Horror and his telling his dad that his going to a drag show in make up etc. didn't mean he was gay.

8 hours ago, bredcrumbs said:

He was three weeks from retirement! Just in the other direction.

LOL!

6 hours ago, madam magpie said:

She can threaten to tell Young Hee about the fake affair if he doesn't give up the codes, but I hope that's when Don wises up to the con!

Yeah, the real issue here is the second she asks for actual codes she's pretty much blowing her cover as some ordinary Mary Kay lady.

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

So I think that what happened with his mother and his boss was a much more disturbing story than Paige realised.

I was reading a discussion of this elsewhere and it's definitely interesting. Some people thought it wasn't possible since especially he was comparing her to Elizabeth's mother who turned down sleeping with the party guy for food, but this would be a very different situation. Otoh, could she just sleep with the guy once? Would he be so openly tickled by the story if he thought she was having to sleep with the guy to get his wages? Still, the very fact that it has to be considered shows the difference in their lives.

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm surprised that her parents have to sit her down and explain why hanging with Matthew and sharing her feelings might not be a good idea, but apparently, that's another potential problem that they just didn't think about.  They sure give her a lot of credit, which is absurd for the trouble she's caused and the immature way she blows up and storms off. 

I always remember how in the Stingers scene, when Philip tells her they'll go to jail if she tells anyone, he says "This might seem obvious, but..." Like he's worried he's insulting her by pointing out the danger. Instead it seems they can point it out multiple times and her fear of them disappearing is still very limited!

It is interesting to think of that story of Matthew's from Paige's pov. She does have good reason to at least assume this woman might have had something to do with her parents, but it's got to be weird for her to realize that spies are all over the place. Like in the past if Matthew told her that she'd have thought, "She's a spy? Whoa!" Now she's like "Oh, I wonder if she worked with my parents."

4 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Paige at some point is going to tell him and his answer is going to be, "Well, yeah. Have you seen the weapons and false ID cache they've hid in the basement? And by the way, Dad'd kill count is probably in the dozens and I'm pretty sure Mom's is higher."

There's a guy at the AV Club, btw, who finally did a kill count of murders committed on the show. Can't remember what it is now, but Philip's is still higher even after Lisa's death. Good to know someone's keeping track!

[teddysmom]

Quote

 while we’re on irksome Elizabeth behavior, it’s pretty off-putting that after all the murders (and torture – recall the son of the Weinberg housekeeper

I need to go back and rewatch earlier seasons. I have completely lost count/track of everyone E has killed.

Quote

She does fluctuate between being petulant and demanding. 

Then she's nailing it because that is the definition of teenager, whether your parents are spies/killers or just a couple regs driving a mini van. 

[Umbelina]

I think I really appreciated the actress playing Paige during the last scene with the Pastor's wife.  That was very well done.  She's no Jennifer Lawrence but she nailed that scene, where it was all the various emotions playing on her face and in her body movements. 

Where can we talk about previews?  They aren't really spoilers, since they've been shown on television already, but they do add insight into discussion/speculation here about, for example, the Don story.  Maybe we need a "discuss the previews" thread just to simplify it all, and keep it out of the spoiler thread that could have actual spoilers people do not want to see? 

Anyway this isn't a real spoiler, just something from the preview, but I'll tag it since that seems to be what everyone's doing.

Spoiler

We now know that Elizabeth's play is to pretend to be pregnant from her pretend sex with Don.  What fascinates me is Don's reaction, he seems, in the brief glimpse we get of him to be pretty controlled, and tells her to abort it.  So what will Liz do know?  If he's not playing into her game, which is still WHAT?  How does getting the codes have anything to do with her aborting? 

I love the long and more realistic set up of this difficult to obtain asset.  I'm also really hoping that Don says fuck it, and reports any attempt at gaining secret information, or that it makes him wonder if the whole thing was a set up.  I just don't see this ending well, and from the brief preview, Liz is going to have to do even more dancing to pull this one off.  We may be seeing a huge failure here, and if we do?  Will she have to kill Don?

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Where can we talk about previews?  They aren't really spoilers, since they've been shown on television already, but they do add insight into discussion/speculation here about, for example, the Don story.  Maybe we need a "discuss the previews" thread just to simplify it all, and keep it out of the spoiler thread that could have actual spoilers people do not want to see?

 

The Speculation Without Spoilers thread would seem to be the place to do that.

[gunderda]

So how exactly did Elizabeth plan to get the code from her friend's husband?  I've never understand what she plans to do by blackmailing him for that info. 

"Give me the code or i'll tell your wife you slept with me?"   I'm not sure that would go down well in either scenario.  Then he knows she's a russian spy or some sort of danger to the US. So how exactly what she planning to use this to get the code????

[hellmouse]

It's fascinating how this episode shows how hard it is to keep a secret, especially with family. We want to trust people, and we think we know who we can trust. It's what Elizabeth says at the end - that they don't know who they can trust, but they trust each other (Philip and Elizabeth), and now they have trust Paige too. Of course, we know they will lie to Paige. And we know they may lie to each other. But that would all be true even if they weren't spies, as we see from other secrets falling from families around town. 

Obviously we're still dealing with the fall out from Paige finding out that Philip and Elizabeth are spies, and then telling Pastor Tim, who then told Alice, who now threatens to tell the Justice department. And Paige wants to add Henry to the "secret" list. Who would he tell?!

Meanwhile, across the street, Stan tells Matthew about the missing secretary who was a spy (we don't know if he tells him her name). Matthew tells Paige. Paige does not tell anyone about it - yet. 

Another teenager learns a secret. Kimmy's father tells her he is in the CIA. Presumably he tells her not to tell anyone. Kimmy tells "James". "James" tells her she shouldn't have told him. He'll probably tell Elizabeth and Gabriel. 

Across town, showing that family trust transcends nationalities, Oleg's father told him about the guy who didn't fire the missiles. Oleg tells Tatiana. She doesn't tell anyone, that we know of. Tatiana tells Oleg she is in a secret department. She asks him not to tell Arkady. Oleg doesn't tell anyone about it - yet. 

And then in an example of professional secrets being kept, Arkady does not tell Tatiana the details of the bad (Gaad) mission. This is because Arkady is the best. 

[gunderda]

10 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

 

Another teenager learns a secret. Kimmy's father tells her he is in the CIA. Presumably he tells her not to tell anyone. Kimmy tells "James". "James" tells her she shouldn't have told him. He'll probably tell Elizabeth and Gabriel. 

He already knew. That's why he's been taping her father. 

[madam magpie]

It's interesting, hellmouse, I started thinking about, and Philip/Elizabeth don't really lie to each other. They sometimes withhold for various reasons, but since that bit in season one where he lied to her about Irina, they pretty much do always tell each other the truth. That caused such a rift; I imagine they just don't go there anymore. I'm sure they'll lie to Paige, since she can't really know all they do, but Elizabeth/Philip did say something like "we might not be able to tell you everything, but we won't lie." There's something really feeling in all that. And it does create a dynamic where there's something less real and clear about all of their connection to Henry now. Interesting that Paige picked up on that.

[hellmouse]

2 minutes ago, gunderda said:

He already knew. That's why he's been taping her father. 

We know that he knew. That's why he's there. But she didn't know. That's what's different. She thought her father worked for the State Department. Now she knows he's CIA. That's what he will tell Gabriel and Elizabeth. It could change the dynamic now that she knows there is a family secret. 

[Jodithgrace]

Sometimes I think that the worst crime that Phillip and Elizabeth have committed since they came to the US as sleeper agents was having kids in the first place. Yes..they are perfect cover..who would suspect a typical suburban family? But, really, what did they think was going to happen when the kids grew up and became old enough to notice things and ask questions? Did they think that they could raise them as Americans and then suddenly on their 18th birthdays turn them into Russian spies? Did anybody ever give this any thought?

I can't blame Paige for her attitude. I think that Elizabeth is so used to herself and her secret life, that she can't see how bizarre this must seem to Paige. It's like she's thinking, "Okay, Paige. So we're spies...get over it!" Meanwhile, Paige's entire world has been turned upside down. She can't just "get over it." Especially if she suspects that her parents have disappeared Pastor Tim.

Honestly, I would really like to know the Centre's plans for this. I know that they expected  Elizabeth to bring Paige into the fold, but realistically...were they really expecting this to work?