S03.E02: Predators Far And Near

[Tara Ariano]

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Ethan gets help from Hecate; evil forces track Vanessa's every move.

[Primetimer]

Hint: not...that one character reveal.

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[BuddhaBelly]

I have a lot of thoughts about this episode and feel like I may need another three rewatches to get them all sorted. As always, it was thrilling and beautifully shot and for once I didn't want to bang my head against the wall when Dorian showed up because he spoke 3 lines max. Please let's continue the trend. I know he can't die, but can we put him in a coffin and drop him in the middle of the ocean.

I'm still digging Henry and the more we see of that simmering rage hiding under the surface, the more I want to see Mr. Hyde emerge. I mean, of course he works at Bedlam and I love that he has ambitions that won't be tempered by his race. He's in such a unique position, coming from wealth and due to inherit a title. I hope he's not a one season and done character. Also, his lab is amazing!

Victor looks especially pathetic in contrast which is probably why I loved that scene with him and Lily. He just wants to domesticate her and she's like NOPE, I've got other plans. Harry Treadaway is at his best in those quiet scenes with his female co-stars. It reminded me of that scene with him and Vanessa lounging on the couch when he's complaining about not being a man like Ethan and Sir Malcolm. Victor needs to see an alienist.

Once again I am super intrigued to see how Lily will react when she sees Ethan again. It better be in this season!

Now on to Ethan. I need this backstory today. There is just too much swirling around, too many hints. I need answers! Ethan and Kaetenay had an adversarial relationship that shifted into a form of family a la Vanessa and Sir Malcolm but something soured it. Is it the wolf curse? Who were the people Ethan accused Kaetenay of killing? Is Ethan really Apache or was he adopted into the tribe even after his crimes? I have so many questions! The biggest is how is Ethan going to get out of this mess and back to London?

I'm a bit surprised people were surprised that Dr. Sweet was Dracula. It seemed so obvious and I thought it was the right choice to get the reveal out of the way since I assumed most people would guess the same way I did. I mean, his color accents were always red.

Such a beautiful and worthwhile show.

[RedHackle]

Love this show and usually find very little to criticize or question.  But can someone with eyes sharper than mine please tell me; during the scene in the Snuff Club (or whatever it's called), did Dorian just shoot like 7 people with a derringer?  Because that's what it looked like and if so, that's something the show shouldn't try to get away with.

As for the Dr. Sweet reveal, I actually didn't see it coming because I've been too busy nerding out over the fact that he's Rudy from Dexter.

[iMonrey]

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm a little tired of Vanessa. Every season there's some manifestation of ultimate evil obsessing over her, and I'm tired of it. I think it would have been more interesting if she had ultimately cast off her psychological demons and just helped solved things instead of being stalked and sought after yet again. And we already did vampires back in Season 1 . Enough already with this.

The Jekyll and Frankenstein story is really what's  keeping me riveted this season. So Jekyll's actual intent is to turn crazy people sane, not the other way around. Is that how it was in the book? Never read it.

I'm still a confused about the timeline - has it only been one month since the end of last season? Could you really get from England to New Mexico in just a month in 1892? There hasn't been a full moon since the end of last season?

Don't Dorian and Lily ever get tired of dancing? That's all they ever seem to do is dance around in the ballroom in Dorian's house. 

[Lila82]

I didn't see the Dr. Sweet reveal coming either, but that's because I want just a moment's happiness for Vanessa, one relationship that isn't mired betrayal and inner darkness.  I knew he was too good to be true, but I had hope. Her hair, her dress, his awkwardness!  Their date was the absolute sweetest, no pun intended.  

It's jarring, the cuts between dark, shadowed Victorian London and the vibrant colors of the American West, but that cinematography was "Mad Max: Fury Road" levels of color saturation.  It actually hurt my eyes, and my TV is low-res and circa 2010.  Just gorgeous.

Re: Ethan's Origins

Did I miss something - Ethan was born Apache?  I thought it was clear that he came to Kaetenay to atone for his sins in the Indian Wars, not only as a soldier but also as a white man, and was adopted into the tribe as part of his penance.  Or cursed for his crimes.  It would go a long way in explaining why he's so committed to killing a man that considers him a son.  

Curious about Hecate's role in all this - she's been drawn to Ethan since the moment she saw him, and her loyalty to her mother was tenuous at best, ie, no love lost there so much as constant jockeying for power.  Is she pursuing Ethan because she's genuinely interested in him or to subdue the Hound of God in a bid to capture the Master's attention?  My guess is the latter.

Talbot Range.  I cannot wait to meet its master.  Is Rusk talking with Victorian flourish or does he know something about the Talbot men - those couldn't be throwaway references to wolves.

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I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm a little tired of Vanessa. Every season there's some manifestation of ultimate evil obsessing over her, and I'm tired of it. I think it would have been more interesting if she had ultimately cast off her psychological demons and just helped solved things instead of being stalked and sought after yet again. And we already did vampires back in Season 1 . Enough already with this.

Isn't this the central narrative of the show, Vanessa's destiny to be the mother of evil and her life long quest to fight it, with a not so band of merry men to do her bidding?  Which is what made this episode so sad: she does all the right things to move on with her life, but she can't catch a break and likely never will.  

[RedheadZombie]

6 hours ago, BuddhaBelly said:

I have a lot of thoughts about this episode and feel like I may need another three rewatches to get them all sorted. As always, it was thrilling and beautifully shot and for once I didn't want to bang my head against the wall when Dorian showed up because he spoke 3 lines max. Please let's continue the trend. I know he can't die, but can we put him in a coffin and drop him in the middle of the ocean.

I'm still digging Henry and the more we see of that simmering rage hiding under the surface, the more I want to see Mr. Hyde emerge. I mean, of course he works at Bedlam and I love that he has ambitions that won't be tempered by his race. He's in such a unique position, coming from wealth and due to inherit a title. I hope he's not a one season and done character. Also, his lab is amazing!

Victor looks especially pathetic in contrast which is probably why I loved that scene with him and Lily. He just wants to domesticate her and she's like NOPE, I've got other plans. Harry Treadaway is at his best in those quiet scenes with his female co-stars. It reminded me of that scene with him and Vanessa lounging on the couch when he's complaining about not being a man like Ethan and Sir Malcolm. Victor needs to see an alienist.

Once again I am super intrigued to see how Lily will react when she sees Ethan again. It better be in this season!

Now on to Ethan. I need this backstory today. There is just too much swirling around, too many hints. I need answers! Ethan and Kaetenay had an adversarial relationship that shifted into a form of family a la Vanessa and Sir Malcolm but something soured it. Is it the wolf curse? Who were the people Ethan accused Kaetenay of killing? Is Ethan really Apache or was he adopted into the tribe even after his crimes? I have so many questions! The biggest is how is Ethan going to get out of this mess and back to London?

I'm a bit surprised people were surprised that Dr. Sweet was Dracula. It seemed so obvious and I thought it was the right choice to get the reveal out of the way since I assumed most people would guess the same way I did. I mean, his color accents were always red.

Such a beautiful and worthwhile show.

Victor just breaks my heart.   I realize he's brought most of his suffering on himself, but I find it hard to sympathize with Lily now that she's a homicidal maniac.  I do not want Ethan to ever find out about Brona/Lily.  It will break his heart, he will try to save her (which takes him from his true destiny, which is Vanessa), and most horrific of all - what if it triggers that god-awful accent to return.  I just shudder at the possibility.

Do we know about Ethan's murder of a senator's son?   I don't seem to remember that.

Dr. Sweet reminds me so much of a younger F. Murray Abraham.  A more handsome version.

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm a little tired of Vanessa. Every season there's some manifestation of ultimate evil obsessing over her, and I'm tired of it. I think it would have been more interesting if she had ultimately cast off her psychological demons and just helped solved things instead of being stalked and sought after yet again. And we already did vampires back in Season 1 . Enough already with this.

The Jekyll and Frankenstein story is really what's  keeping me riveted this season. So Jekyll's actual intent is to turn crazy people sane, not the other way around. Is that how it was in the book? Never read it.

I'm still a confused about the timeline - has it only been one month since the end of last season? Could you really get from England to New Mexico in just a month in 1892? There hasn't been a full moon since the end of last season?

Don't Dorian and Lily ever get tired of dancing? That's all they ever seem to do is dance around in the ballroom in Dorian's house. 

I was briefly irritated by Vanessa season one, because all men seemed to adore her.  But then I saw that she returns the affection.  And by Possession, I was in tears at how devoted all the men were to her.  And (at the time) not one of them was interested in her sexually.  You just don't see that very often.

Jeckyll's experiment was interesting, but we're going on his word that the patient he experimented on was in his natural state.  For all we know, the guy was in that state from what Jeckyll had been doing to him, or the meds he was forced to take.

2 hours ago, Lila82 said:

I didn't see the Dr. Sweet reveal coming either, but that's because I want just a moment's happiness for Vanessa, one relationship that isn't mired betrayal and inner darkness.  I knew he was too good to be true, but I had hope. Her hair, her dress, his awkwardness!  Their date was the absolute sweetest, no pun intended.  

It's jarring, the cuts between dark, shadowed Victorian London and the vibrant colors of the American West, but that cinematography was "Mad Max: Fury Road" levels of color saturation.  It actually hurt my eyes, and my TV is low-res and circa 2010.  Just gorgeous.

Re: Ethan's Origins

Did I miss something - Ethan was born Apache?  I thought it was clear that he came to Kaetenay to atone for his sins in the Indian Wars, not only as a soldier but also as a white man, and was adopted into the tribe as part of his penance.  Or cursed for his crimes.  It would go a long way in explaining why he's so committed to killing a man that considers him a son.  

Curious about Hecate's role in all this - she's been drawn to Ethan since the moment she saw him, and her loyalty to her mother was tenuous at best, ie, no love lost there so much as constant jockeying for power.  Is she pursuing Ethan because she's genuinely interested in him or to subdue the Hound of God in a bid to capture the Master's attention?  My guess is the latter.

Talbot Range.  I cannot wait to meet its master.  Is Rusk talking with Victorian flourish or does he know something about the Talbot men - those couldn't be throwaway references to wolves.

Isn't this the central narrative of the show, Vanessa's destiny to be the mother of evil and her life long quest to fight it, with a not so band of merry men to do her bidding?  Which is what made this episode so sad: she does all the right things to move on with her life, but she can't catch a break and likely never will.  

I suspected that Dr. Sweet would be bad, because Vanessa is only drawn to dark and tormented people.  But it seemed too obvious for him to be Dracula. I don't understand why he needed inside info when he already knew she was drawn to him.  A little too convenient that the psychiatrist's advice seems to lead to Dracula.

I started the discussion last week on whether Ethan is Native American.  It has never been confirmed.   I just don't buy Kaetenay becoming his father figure after he was an adult, and after he slaughtered Kaetenay's tribe.  Kaetenay claims him as a son.  I'll go with whatever they tell me, but I really love the idea that his mother was Apache, Ethan spent his first however many years with the tribe, and then his father came and took him into the white world.  Ethan seemed so empathetic to NA's torn from their own culture, made to live as a white man, then realizing they belonged in neither world.

I don't mind Hecate too much, and I'm grateful that she helped save Ethan.  But I'm not interested in a romance, and will resent it greatly.  Ethan's obviously meant to be with Vanessa, the actors have great chemistry, they can save each other's tormented souls, and their destined by God to be together.  And I loved the little glimpse into what Vanessa wants above all else - marriage to Ethan and happy children.

I never read Dracula.  Did vampires traipse around in daylight in the book, or is it just post-Twilight lore?

I will not be happy until we get a "Fuck me!" out of Ethan after seeing or realizing something awful.  He's done it each season.

In the trailer for the season,

Spoiler

Ethan looks like he's gong to stab someone, and it looks to me like Lyle.  Anyone know for sure who it is?

[iMonrey]

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Did vampires traipse around in daylight in the book, or is it just post-Twilight lore?

Twilight can't take credit for day-walking vampires, but yes, the idea of it is relatively new in vampire lore. It would certainly have been a novel idea in 1892. Vampires were technically dead during the day, unable to move. They only came to "life" once the sun went down.

[Addlepated]

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Twilight can't take credit for day-walking vampires, but yes, the idea of it is relatively new in vampire lore. It would certainly have been a novel idea in 1892. Vampires were technically dead during the day, unable to move. They only came to "life" once the sun went down.

Hmm, it's been a while since I read Dracula but I thought that he could move around, albeit weakly, during the day.  Scanning through my copy I see Van Helsing say, "Thus in the end we may find him in his form of man between the hours of noon and sunset, and so engage with him when he is at his most weak."  Maybe it was just the more powerful vampires this applied to?  In the (mostly awful) movie with Gary Oldman and Keanu Reeves, he was able to walk the streets during the day, and it was supposed to be based somewhat closely on the book.

This is making me want to reread Dracula and The Historian!

Project Gutenberg has Dracula online here - http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/345

Edited May 9, 2016 by Addlepated

[Epeolatrix]

Dracula full of instances wherein Dracula is active in the day. The film "Nosferatu" (1922) introduced the idea of fatal sunlight.

[sjohnson]

It seemed to me that Kaetenay didn't adopt Ethan as an Apache. Apparently Ethan was familiar enough with them to speak the language and know the customs. But after the massacre his language skills helped carry out (my guess is that his father ordered the massacre,) I think Kaetenay cursed Ethan to be a skinwalker (although the term itself is Navaho I think, for "witch.") On the other hand Kaetenay talks to Murray like he wants to help Ethan. To stay alive and keep murdering people? Maybe Kaetenay thinks of Ethan as an agent planted to kill white people at odd intervals. 

[raven]

Hecate, back off the Lupus Dei!

"Do all your people speak so enigmatically?"  "Yes"  Ha!

I also think Kaetenay cursed Ethan with the wolf because of the massacre.  Kaetenay talks about how Ethan wanted Kaetenay to kill him, that he (Ethan} was covered in blood but Kaetenay wanted Ethan to suffer and left him alive.  Malcolm draws the parallel with how he used to hate Vanessa.  I loved that whole sequence; Ethan threatened to kill Kaetenay if he saw him in the flesh so I don't think there's affection there.   I don't know why Kaetenay is chasing after Ethan, except he says that Ethan is the Apache he needs, what for I don't know.  I'm really enjoying the old West.

I only realized Dr. Sweet was evil when he didn't go for coffee   I guess it was obvious but I was hoping for something better for Vanessa; at least until Ethan comes back.   At the end of her session when she's wrecked with tears, I just felt so badly for her.  Dr. Seward I'm sure doesn't believe the supernatural stuff and must think Vanessa is seriously disturbed :(    I think Dracula's having Renfield spy on her so that he can get the serious background on her, the things she won't tell to him or that his minions can't find out.  Rather than be aggressive, I see him going for seduction as a friend first, with his dusty cases and lectures and Captain Nemo.  Loved Vanessa's hair and dress on their date.

I think Jekyll suffered from unrequited love for Victor.  The way he says "what we do for love" in his enormous laboratory (with bright sunny windows! though subterranean) made me pause.  I want him to be trustworthy but I don't trust him; not just because of Hyde.  I got the shivers hearing Victor coldly list Balfour's symptoms while the poor guy is screaming and flailing in the chair.  That's a nightmare, being tied up and experimented on.

Victor needs to lay off the needle.  I'm interested in Lily and Dorian so far (wasn't much last season).  I wonder if Lily will reach a point in her murdering and mayhem when Dorian gets bored?  That would be interesting.  I thought it strange that all the drooling men in the opening sequence didn't cover their faces.  What would they do when they saw each other at the next party, wink knowlingly? Well they're dead now, no loss.  Everyone is all around excellent in this show but Billie Piper and Harry Treadaway both get special mention; BP is completely Lily and though you can't blame her for being so furious with how she's always been abused, she is obviously insane.  HT makes me somewhat sympathetic to Victor, though he brought this all on himself and he wants to cure her so that she will love him?? Could he really strap her in that chair? Oh Victor.

I'm really enjoying all the separate segments but can't wait for everyone to be back together.

No Mr. Lyle.  Boo.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, raven said:

Hecate, back off the Lupus Dei!

"Do all your people speak so enigmatically?"  "Yes"  Ha!

I also think Kaetenay cursed Ethan with the wolf because of the massacre.  Kaetenay talks about how Ethan wanted Kaetenay to kill him, that he (Ethan} was covered in blood but Kaetenay wanted Ethan to suffer and left him alive.  Malcolm draws the parallel with how he used to hate Vanessa.  I loved that whole sequence; Ethan threatened to kill Kaetenay if he saw him in the flesh so I don't think there's affection there.   I don't know why Kaetenay is chasing after Ethan, except he says that Ethan is the Apache he needs, what for I don't know.  I'm really enjoying the old West.

With the difference being that Malcolm knew and cared about Vanessa long before he hated her.  

I did not like how Malcolm was hedging on calling Vanessa his daughter.  He didn't have a problem saying it when he killed Mina to save Vanessa.  They clearly have a loving and supportive relationship now.  Why have Malcolm argue over feeling fatherly toward Vanessa?  It seemed out of character. He's certainly more Vanessa's father than Ethan's, which Kaetenay kept insisting upon. 

[ganesh]

Oh Victor. Turning his manpain up to 11 ffs. But Vanessa had a date! And then the reveal. 

11 hours ago, BuddhaBelly said:

The biggest is how is Ethan going to get out of this mess and back to London?

I think they're all going to end up in New Mexico with him. I'm looking forward to more of the west. 

[attica]

I am always, always, always happy to see Wes Studi in a project. Even when he's evil (hi, Magua!), he's riveting to watch. A very virile presence.

[GenieinTX]

The sets on this show are amazing.  That lab!  But I want to give special shoutout to the museum or whatever it is where Dr Sweet works.  All of those exhibits!  Does anyone know if that place actually still exists and looks like that or did they have to make and dress that set?  Because if they did, that is serious set building.

[rozen]

Interesting, Ethan was ready to slit Katenay's throat, but also promptly told him exactly where he was when asked. The old lady at the inn who was apparently family seemed to hold him no ill either. Can't wait to see that relationship play out. 

Malcom has learned stranger danger the hard way over the last couple of seasons. Not surprised he would be cagey about loving Vanessa. 

Knew it was Dracula from the first season, glad they just confirmed it right away instead of playing coy. Obsessed with broken dead things, check. Love of adventure, but too fragile to go adventuring (just like Malcom's son), check. Awkward and bumbling, check. He's custom built himself to hit all of Vanessa's buttons. Why either of the fallen brothers didn't do this in the first place is beyond me. It's not like Vanessa is hard to figure out. 

Oh, Jekyll is terrifying. And stupid Victor. He's built up this elaborate fairytale out of Lily playing the hell out of him. She. Was. Never. That. Into. You. I need Caliban to come back if only to knock some sense into Victor. He's got the right kind of brooding personality to not fall for the sunshine playacting twice. 

Did the execs complain there weren't enough nipples last season? This episode was like boobs galore for no real reason. Whatever. 

There had to be a way to make the British detective seem clever without making everyone an idiot. "Oh, he's heading to his father's ranch? I suppose that would be a sensible place to start."

[LittleIggy]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Twilight can't take credit for day-walking vampires, but yes, the idea of it is relatively new in vampire lore. It would certainly have been a novel idea in 1892. Vampires were technically dead during the day, unable to move. They only came to "life" once the sun went down.

Not so. In Stoker's novel, Dracula could walk abroad in the day, but lacked his vampiric powers.

What did Dorian and Lily want with the girl? They don't know Victor's reanimation method.

Jekyll couldn't inherit a title if he was illegitimate which I thought was what he told Victor.

[WaltersHair]

Well, I thought Dr. Sweet was Dracula last week if only because Vanessa was literally herded to the field museum by the minions and no man (NO MAN) would forget her name. Twice. Vanessa is an entirely compelling individual.

The old west stuff is great, but I worked on Indian reservations for years-Hopi, Navajo, Apache, Chippewa and none of the story's lore is gelling with what I know of Native lore. I'm going to take a wait and see on that. I adore Ethan, so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for a good while for him.

Like others, I want all the characters back together.

Edited May 10, 2016 by WaltersHair

[dr pepper]

when the shaman drank in his smoke and then we saw a montage of desert scenes, i had a sudden Billy Jack vibe. And then when Ethan was sucked into the medicine dream, it got stronger.

[Bec]

It's working pretty nicely that the character of Henry Clerval from the Frankenstein book has pretty much been replaced with a different (and much more interesting) Henry. I wasn't familiar with what Dr. Jekyll's first name is in the original story, had to look that up. Hee.

I'm kind of digging Lily right now. Sure, she's homicidal, but she's killing people who totally had it coming so far.

I also dig the scene with the photographer near the beginning of the episode. Always struck me as wonderfully creepy that they used to photograph dead people. I almost didn't think the old west could be creepy, but this show managed to get that side of it.

6 hours ago, raven said:

I wonder if Lily will reach a point in her murdering and mayhem when Dorian gets bored?

Yes! I also wonder what will happen if Dorian gets bored? Will he try to get rid of Lily? How would he even attempt that, she's unkillable, unlike his last fling. Ooh, maybe he'll team up with Victor and that's how Victor would manage to get her into Dr. Jekyll's lab?

Lily was so nice to Victor (who was being such a stalker) in that scene they shared, I thought it was a dream sequence. Whatever happened to "I'm a superior being and will make your kind kneel before me in terror!" Sure, she was pretty much telling him to go away, but she was so incredibly kind about it. Caliban would have put him in a chokehold and threatened to kill him.

I wonder if she actually needs Victor to turn that new girl into an immortal for her. Is that her plan?

I like that Victor seems more conflicted about the idea of drugging Lily up after seeing the experiment in Dr. Jekyll's lab. That's better than earlier on when he seemed pretty eager to go ahead and get Lily "back" to domesticated and docile. Somehow I don't think it'll work if the docile thing was only an act in the first place and was never part of her real personality. And she even tells him that it was never real to his face! I suppose wishful thinking can be a hard thing to shake, but I really hope he puts a stop to the idea of doing this to Lily. I have a feeling Dr. Jekyll is going to become a handful any day now, so Victor would still have plenty of story without this tiresome Lily obsession.

3 hours ago, GenieinTX said:

the museum or whatever it is where Dr Sweet works.  All of those exhibits!  Does anyone know if that place actually still exists and looks like that or did they have to make and dress that set?  Because if they did, that is serious set building.

That's the Natural History Museum in Dublin. In the story it's supposed to be the Natural History Museum in London. I guess the one in London doesn't have those awesome old-timey displays anymore, so they have to use a stand-in? I haven't been to either of these places, I just used my Google-fu. Hee. Now I want to go so bad!

12 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm a little tired of Vanessa.

I'm right there with you. I know a lot of people thought it was impressive acting when she went all possessed in the first season, and okay, it was impressive... at first. But to me it also felt like that went on and on and on forever. And then when she was using spells and having chant-offs with the witches in the second season, it was very similar to the possessed(!) acting, though I understand it's not the same thing. I really loved when the show switched it up and had her go shopping with Victor, so I think I would love the character more if the show has her stuff be less repetitive.

[dr pepper]

Dr. Sweet says that squid don't grow that big. And that was what they knew back then, kraken was a legend, all the squids they found were less than monstrous in size. We know better now, we've found all kinds of monster squids. So, some period accuracy there. But not literary accuracy. Sure, cinematic versions of 20,00 Leagues Under the Sea show Nemo's crew fighting giant squids or sometimes octopi. And i wouldn't be surprised if that had already started back in the magic lantern era. But. That's. Not. In. The. Book! In the book, they fight giant cuttlefish! Poor cuttlefish, the cephalopod that gets no love. Cthulhu suffers from the same revisionism. He's described as having a face resembling a cuttlefish, but that's not how he's depicted.

Anyway, what i'm trying to say, is that any Verne loving zoologist, or vampire posing as one, would have said something about it.

[BuddhaBelly]

14 hours ago, sjohnson said:

It seemed to me that Kaetenay didn't adopt Ethan as an Apache. Apparently Ethan was familiar enough with them to speak the language and know the customs. But after the massacre his language skills helped carry out (my guess is that his father ordered the massacre,) I think Kaetenay cursed Ethan to be a skinwalker (although the term itself is Navaho I think, for "witch.") On the other hand Kaetenay talks to Murray like he wants to help Ethan. To stay alive and keep murdering people? Maybe Kaetenay thinks of Ethan as an agent planted to kill white people at odd intervals. 

I always assumed Ethan was a soldier during the Apache Wars. There were a few that happened in New Mexico that he would be the right age for. And I always had this vague headcanon that NAs maybe worked on this father's ranch which increased his exposure to the culture, introduced him to the language, etc. But I wouldn't be opposed to the idea that he fully embraced the culture when he went to Kaetenay to repent. I didn't think the old woman in the bar was family. I imagined he used "Mother" as a term of respect for her place in the tribe.

[qtpye]

I really like this show, however, I agree there needs to be closure on Vanessa.  She will either have to make the ultimate sacrifice of giving up her life this season, or just give into the evil and destroy the world.  She is the glue that holds the Victorian Scooby gang together so the end of her story line will probably be the end of the series.  I guess that we could have Satan and/or Dracula kidnap her and then the guys attempt a rescue, but that would be too much of a retread of season one, when they go look for Nina.

It would be nice if a troubled female came to be Vanessa friend instead of guys.  However, Victorian literature is notorious for women only being side characters in literature, only serving to motivate the hero, so there is less to choose from.

However, I can imagine John Claire talking to a young female writer about his poems and troubles, her name turns out to be Mary Shelley.

[tennisgurl]

Quote

I think Jekyll suffered from unrequited love for Victor.  The way he says "what we do for love" in his enormous laboratory (with bright sunny windows! though subterranean) made me pause.

They honestly come off like former lovers, who still have feelings for each other. Move on from Lily, Victor! She has a new boyfriend, now you can find one. I really like this interpretation of Jekll, a way more interesting take than the original story, in my opinion.

I need to know Ethan's backstory, now! I now kind of wonder if he has an Apache Mom, lived with her and the Apache in his early life, then his Dad took him and forced him to abandon that part of his heritage, made him eventually join the army, and that led to him taking part in the attacks on Native Americans. But I really have no idea at this point. But holy hell do I want to know. I love the Old West stuff, the cinematography is just amazing, so bright and colorful, in contrast with dark, gloomy looking London. 

I am clearly an idiot, because I did not see the Dr. Sweets thing coming. Poor Vanessa. She just cant avoid the supernatural guys.

I love this show so much, and this season is great so far, even though I am looking forward to seeing the gang meet up again.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

Isn't this the central narrative of the show, Vanessa's destiny to be the mother of evil and her life long quest to fight it, with a not so band of merry men to do her bidding? 

It shouldn't be. The show has enough going on without a constant re-tread of Vanessa being pursued by the ultimate evil. We don't need yet another season of it. By all means, keep her a central part of the story, but it feels like lather, rinse, repeat with her for three seasons now. Time to move on and find a different way to incorporate her into the story.

[dargosmydaddy]

13 hours ago, Bec said:

That's the Natural History Museum in Dublin. In the story it's supposed to be the Natural History Museum in London. I guess the one in London doesn't have those awesome old-timey displays anymore, so they have to use a stand-in?

They film in Ireland in general, so I would imagine it was just more convenient.

[RedheadZombie]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I need to know Ethan's backstory, now! I now kind of wonder if he has an Apache Mom, lived with her and the Apache in his early life, then his Dad took him and forced him to abandon that part of his heritage, made him eventually join the army, and that led to him taking part in the attacks on Native Americans. But I really have no idea at this point. But holy hell do I want to know. I love the Old West stuff, the cinematography is just amazing, so bright and colorful, in contrast with dark, gloomy looking London. 

I have been thinking this all along, and posted as much this season, but I think it's just wishful thinking.  I started off with a misunderstanding of what Ethan said in season one, but I continue to feel that Ethan has NA blood.

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

However, I can imagine John Claire talking to a young female writer about his poems and troubles, her name turns out to be Mary Shelley.

Oh please, no Mary Shelley.  I have no interest in watching her gallivant around Europe with her lover, until his wife conveniently commits suicide so she can marry him.

17 hours ago, Bec said:

I'm kind of digging Lily right now. Sure, she's homicidal, but she's killing people who totally had it coming so far.

I hope they're not turning her into a vigilante who avenges downtrodden women.  She killed the man last season who did nothing but have consensual sex with her.  And what happened to her wanting to destroy mankind?

21 hours ago, rozen said:

Knew it was Dracula from the first season, glad they just confirmed it right away instead of playing coy. Obsessed with broken dead things, check. Love of adventure, but too fragile to go adventuring (just like Malcom's son), check. Awkward and bumbling, check. He's custom built himself to hit all of Vanessa's buttons. Why either of the fallen brothers didn't do this in the first place is beyond me. It's not like Vanessa is hard to figure out. 

I'm not convinced that Dracula is "The Master".  I think it's Satan.  He's attempted getting her through season one's vampires, season two's witches, and now Dracula.  Isn't Vanessa supposed to be an incarnation of Amunet?  And Amunet is pursued by the fallen brothers, one of which is Satan?  It's confusing, but I think Dracula is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.  And of course Dracula would enter the show, I assumed so after the whole Mina business.

I don't know that those buttons you're talking about - dead things, loves adventure, fragile, awkward and bumbling - are Vanessa's buttons.  They describe Peter, who Vanessa never had anything other than a sisterly affection for.  Vanessa is drawn to strength, arrogance, darkness, confidence.  And I haven't sensed the sexual pull from Dracula that Vanessa had with Dorian and Ethan.  So maybe she's drawn to him because he's like (or acting like) Peter (or even Victor), which may be smarter than appealing to her romantically.  Maybe that's what you're actually saying, and I missed your point.

23 hours ago, ganesh said:

I think they're all going to end up in New Mexico with him. I'm looking forward to more of the west. 

But it doesn't fit in with the Dracula storyline.  Plus, the season trailer shows

Spoiler

Ethan walking into Sir Malcolm's house, and Vanessa running down the stairs to hug him.  There's a misleading scene where Ethan's hauling a brunette woman through the desert, but I think it will be Hecate.

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

I really like this show, however, I agree there needs to be closure on Vanessa.  She will either have to make the ultimate sacrifice of giving up her life this season, or just give into the evil and destroy the world.  She is the glue that holds the Victorian Scooby gang together so the end of her story line will probably be the end of the series.  I guess that we could have Satan and/or Dracula kidnap her and then the guys attempt a rescue, but that would be too much of a retread of season one, when they go look for Nina.

I honestly don't think that's how the story will go, because the show has a fondness for happy endings (well happy endings Gothic-style).  It would be heartbreaking to invest in Vanessa for years, and then have her give over to evil.  Plus, in a season three promo

Spoiler

Eva Green is discussing Vanessa's trials, and with a big smile, says that God is stronger than evil.  And I think that's the ultimate message of Vanessa's journey.

[ganesh]

I haven't watched the promo or season trailer. I like to be unspoiled. I just thought it would be something different to do, if Vanessa has to flee Dracula. 

[clack]

I assume Ethan participated in the Apache wars as an Army scout and interpreter. And speaking fluent Apache doesn't necessarily mean that he is part Apache (although I wouldn't be surprised if he was) -- it was not unheard of for whites brought up near Apache tribes to learn the language.

[rozen]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm not convinced that Dracula is "The Master".  I think it's Satan.  He's attempted getting her through season one's vampires, season two's witches, and now Dracula.  Isn't Vanessa supposed to be an incarnation of Amunet?  And Amunet is pursued by the fallen brothers, one of which is Satan?  It's confusing, but I think Dracula is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.  And of course Dracula would enter the show, I assumed so after the whole Mina business.

I don't know that those buttons you're talking about - dead things, loves adventure, fragile, awkward and bumbling - are Vanessa's buttons.  They describe Peter, who Vanessa never had anything other than a sisterly affection for.  Vanessa is drawn to strength, arrogance, darkness, confidence.  And I haven't sensed the sexual pull from Dracula that Vanessa had with Dorian and Ethan.  So maybe she's drawn to him because he's like (or acting like) Peter (or even Victor), which may be smarter than appealing to her romantically.  Maybe that's what you're actually saying, and I missed your point.

  Reveal hidden contents

Eva Green is discussing Vanessa's trials, and with a big smile, says that God is stronger than evil.  And I think that's the ultimate message of Vanessa's journey.

My theory is that Dracula and "Lucifer"* are the brothers, and that they're taking turns with their respective minions. Dracula tried vampires/psychological manipulation via Mina. Lucifer tried witches + psychological manipulation via possession. Now Dracula's back with a more personal touch.

During Vanessa's flashback to when Mina was alive she narrated that Peter was weak, and that she loved him for that weakness. Then she tried to kiss him and declare herself, and he ran away as fast as humanly possible. I agree she's attracted to strength, but I think she's fond of weakness. She's at her most empathetic and merciful when others are at the end of their rope, possibly because that's the only time she feels like she can contribute something to help them.

I think Vanessa is very leery of seduction right now, so it's very smart to go after her this way. Trigger her protective tendencies and worm your way into her heart. 

Just thought about it, wouldn't Ethan's dad just have to know that there would be a full moon between the train and when he'd be hauled back? He totally set up those bandits to die, didn't he? Hope they got some payment up front, because man that was a nasty way to go.

*We don't know that's who he is, but whatever, shorthand!

[Cthulhudrew]

Having been in an abusive relationship, I can't quite figure out what Brona's goal was with her tete-a-tete with Victor. Given the way we last saw her treat him, I find it difficult to believe there is any sort of affection there in her warning him off, but on the other hand, it seems as if the show writers maybe seem to want us to believe there is? 

Either way, giving some affection with one hand, while swatting away the same with the other? Mixed emotions is the surest way of keeping a fish on the hook, that's all I'm saying. Best for her by far if she actually has any feeling towards Victor to just shut him down all together. 

Elsewise, I took it to be that Ethan didn't have any actual Apache in him, but that his relationship with a Kaetnenay was similar to that of Vanessa and Malcolm- ie, that there was a lot of pain involved in the establishment of the relationship, but there was affection that resulted eventually due to understanding of the un-natural relation of the people involved (ie, that Ethan's curse was not his fault; I expect that it will end up being some kind of family trait shared/inherited by his father, rather than being something that was inflicted upon him by being a bad sort of person. I may be wrong, yet.)

Sweet as Dracula I can't say was wholly unexpected, although I do think it a little odd all the Renfield spying on her stuff, if he is going to remain that close to her himself. Is there anything Renfield has discovered so far that Dracula wouldn't have already known from Mina? (Methinks no.)

[Bec]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I hope they're not turning her into a vigilante who avenges downtrodden women.  She killed the man last season who did nothing but have consensual sex with her.  And what happened to her wanting to destroy mankind?

I thought that guy was a john. Isn't that what Lily's talking about with the whole "forced to my knees when I was a girl, servicing any man with two bob and a hard back to his hand" and "the men from your past, the ones who used you, the monsters"? I thought that was interesting, I can see how from her point of view, she's not the monster. Men who use and abuse others are the monsters.

It's not like she killed some innocent creature who had barely learned to talk or an old man whose only crime was being Victor's friend (I'm looking at you, Caliban). I would find it very odd if we're supposed to find Caliban (or John Clare or whatever) sympathetic after he killed two somewhat major characters (who were about as innocent as you can get on this show), yet see Lily as evil because she killed some random extras whose names we don't even know (or care about, hee).

She didn't threaten to destroy mankind exactly, just make them kneel before her in terror. If I'm remembering right? She's kind of like Batman, attempting to put a stop to bad guys by being terrifying. So, she's not turning into a vigilante. She already is one at this point. That shootout with her and Dorian rescuing that girl? It was some superhero-esque stuff.

You know word is going to get out that all these dudes who have a habit of buying women or buying other dudes to beat up women are getting killed left and right. I thought this was going to lead to Inspector(?) Rusk looking into her, but he's a little busy and on a different continent at the moment. I honestly have no idea where this story is going right now, and I'm pretty intrigued.

[darkestboy]

Fab episode. I knew Sweet was going to be Dracula. It was so blindingly obvious but it works really well. I really love the actor in the role and the connection between him and Vanessa is actually being drawn out really well too.

Vanessa's sessions with Dr Seward are also being well done too. Eva Green and Patti LuPone play off each other so well.

Continue to enjoy the scenes with Victor and Jekyll but still hate the idea of them trying to 'tame' Lily though.

Speaking of, Lily and Dorian had some great scenes in this episode as did Lily/Victor as well for a brief moment.

Hecate was useful in this episode with Ethan but I'm still not too fond of her though. I did like the trippy scenes with Ethan as well. I guess next week both him and Malcolm will see each other again, 8/10

[attica]

Did anyone else think that Ethan's half-transformation make Hartnett look more like Teen Wolf than Lupo Dei? Just me?

[sjohnson]

What Victor did to Brona was bring her back to life without her consent (the actual suffocation was a part of that act.) It's true that the show is giving Lily dialogue appropriate to an abuse victim, while making Victor curl his mustache as he cackles MRA style stalkerisms. I think that really lets him off the hook for his unique abuse of Lily.  The dude was possessive for a few weeks? Not good, but the monster making thing seems so much more of a Bad Thing to me. Even worse, since the johns in the main cast are Dorian and Ethan, it really is horribly inconsistent.to think Lily is getting revenge against her abusers. At this point, neither Lily nor we should care if she ever sees Ethan again. 

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

What Victor did to Brona was bring her back to life without her consent (the actual suffocation was a part of that act.) It's true that the show is giving Lily dialogue appropriate to an abuse victim, while making Victor curl his mustache as he cackles MRA style stalkerisms. I think that really lets him off the hook for his unique abuse of Lily.  The dude was possessive for a few weeks? Not good, but the monster making thing seems so much more of a Bad Thing to me. Even worse, since the johns in the main cast are Dorian and Ethan, it really is horribly inconsistent.to think Lily is getting revenge against her abusers. At this point, neither Lily nor we should care if she ever sees Ethan again. 

In theory, I know what Victor did to Brona was so wrong.  But the actor makes him so sympathetic, he's so loving with Vanessa, his childhood fascinations with death/life/blood were explained well, his initial relationship with Lily was so sweet, real Lily is so awful, and the fact that she's teamed up with Dorian - it all makes me forget that Brona was a victim in life, and Lily started out as a victim in death.  I guess once Lily absolutely eviscerated Victor with her cruel words (even though they were true), murdered a seemingly innocent man, then vowed to make mankind tremble - well I'm just not feeling her.  I'm also not feeling the change in Lily's path.  I don't buy her concern for the girl, and I can't imagine they'll do anything but horrible things to her.  And I didn't really get her somewhat kind treatment of Victor.  It felt a little like she was worried he was losing his fascination of her, so she was reeling him back in.  My only other interpretation is she was previously so cruel with Victor because Dorian was present. 

Conversely, I realize many hate Caliban.  He killed Prometheus and Van Helsing.  But that was the beginning of what we learned about his character.  Seeing his terror when Victor abandoned him, hearing his torment that his creator allowed him to feel, and asking Victor to go ahead and kill him, watching him being caged like an animal to be mocked, his poetic lines and the Shakespearean delivery, and then his special friendship with Vanessa - I think his character has grown.  I don't think John Clare would do the same things if he could go back.  He stayed in that cage in the wax museum for quite some time, knowing he could escape and/or kill the proprietors.  But it took quite a lot to make him lash out, and he seemed to somewhat regret killing, and left without killing his cruelest tormentor.  I'm excited to see him discover who he was, but

Spoiler

the season trailer shows him howling in agony, so I'm wary of what he will discover.  Or perhaps he will be rejected by his family, or lose them in the end.

[RedheadZombie]

To add to my above comment on Victor:  I think he's shown growth since the show started.  I recently re-watched season one, and he was quite the asshole when they first met him.  But he grew to care for our gang.  His disappointment when Malcolm invited Ethan to Africa, and then his gentle treatment with Vanessa - I loved when he told off the priest who was begrudgingly doing the bare minimum for possessed Vanessa.  To paraphrase, he told him to do what he was going to do, then get the fuck out, "you silly man".  Loved it. 

On the other hand, I think his relationship with Dr. Jekyll will be fascinating, but it's dragging Victor back down into the darkness and isolation.  And the worst part is Jekyll's presenting himself as a bit of a savior.  It's obviously not going to end well.  Our group is always better for being together, and succumb to darkness and defeat when apart.

[givencare]

On 5/9/2016 at 10:00 AM, RedHackle said:

Love this show and usually find very little to criticize or question.  But can someone with eyes sharper than mine please tell me; during the scene in the Snuff Club (or whatever it's called), did Dorian just shoot like 7 people with a derringer?  Because that's what it looked like and if so, that's something the show shouldn't try to get away with.

 

I was wondering about that, too.  It's really hard to tell in that scene since the action is pretty quick, but I think the two pistols he used might have been the Sharps Breech Loading Four Shot Pepperbox Pistol.  It was made from 1859 to 1874.  Over and under with an exposed hammer.

Edited May 11, 2016 by givencare
word needed to be plural

[Netfoot]

He had two pepperbox pistols, one in each hand.  He fired eight shots in total.

Whether it was a Sharps model or not, I couldn't say, but one of them was clearly four-barreled. I didn't get a good enough look at the other.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Netfoot

[Bec]

Does Ethan count as a john? As far as I can remember he never treated Brona like a prostitute, and she wasn't letting him have her in exchange for cash - she actually wanted him. But it's been a while, so my memory might be fuzzy.

Yeah, it is pretty strange that Dorian is one of those men who used her in the past, but she's all teamed up with him right now. Where's her monumental revenge on Dorian? (Maybe that's still coming. Could be fun!)

And you just know Dorian totally was one of those dudes who paid to watch a girl get killed at some point in his long, long life. I still remember him taking Ethan to that nasty place that had dogs fight swarms of rats. Dorian loved it there! It's no secret he's in this because to him it's a new and amusing blood sport... until the novelty wears off anyway.

The show does tell us straight up that Lily is motivated by revenge for all the horrible stuff she undoubtedly endured. So, I'm under no illusion that she's helping this girl out of the pure goodness of her heart. I still find myself rooting for Lily right now. There's something very human about having motivations that are less than totally noble. It's relatable, in a way. This show does a very good job of setting up character motivations beyond just pure good and pure evil.

[BuddhaBelly]

Dorian gives Lily access and money. She couldn't enter a lot of spaces if she wasn't on his arm, although I can't imagine her being accepted in polite company...but that's not what either of them are chasing. Also, I think that he never violated her. Yes, he paid her for sex but he treated her kindly for the most part.

Dorian already looks partially bored. I can't wait to see what happens once Lily gets bored with him hanging around. That's a match up that I will enjoy.

I now have visions of Lily as the leader of a super violent suffragette group, stirring up women to murder their husbands in their sleep.

As a modern woman I want to punch Victor in his face, but putting him in context of his time I can't be surprised that he just wants a little wife at home to take care of him and love him...perfectly domestic. I think as much as he admires Vanessa, she isn't the type of wife he would ever want and not what most men would want. Vanessa is an anomaly, not just in terms of the supernatural, but her independence and will and I bet she feels like she's paying for that spirit.

[sjohnson]

The show is quite clear that paying for sex deserves capital punishment. That's what Lily does (selectively) and the show has made her gloriously bad ass and sexy. And it has confirmed this by making Victor a weak and whining loser, whose aspirations to someone so out of his league as Lily are offensive, manifestations of male privilege. Victor's hubris in making his creatures is, like Dorian/Ethan, a fever dream that has no bearing on reality. Victor no longer is a monstrous Creator who abandons his creatures and flees his responsibility. Forgetting for a moment he didn't do that with Proteus or Lily, he is clearly too ineffectual to shoulder any responsibility whatsoever, as confirmed by the addiction. His monstrousness lies solely in his possessiveness to that which he isn't man enough to aspire to, much less own. I'm sorry, I think the show is quite clear about this. I'm not getting it myself, but that's obviously just me.

It is unclear whether Lily telling the new girl that she belongs to Lily now is supposed to be villainous. Dorian seems to be repeating the offer that Victor made to Brona as she was dying, and like Brona, the girl has consented. (Unless you idea of consent requires really being informed, in which case neither Brona nor her consented.) But the show has since committed to Lily being liberated and Doing Good Works now, so it's doubtful that can be deemed bad.

Personally I tend to suspect that the insistence that there really are such things as snuff films may be puritanical hysteria about sex. But others think it's all about the nature of male sexuality of course. So when the show tells us that snuff films were preceded by live shows when there weren't any movies, the show is committing to whatever believing in snuff films means.

As I recall there was a line that I understood as, Brona was no longer taking money from Ethan. 

Bram Stoker's Dracula if I remember correctly had Mina remarking in her diary that she was becoming something of a "New Woman." Feminism was not invented in the Sixties/Seventies. What really changed feminism then from its predecessors was the trifecta of a woman controlled form of effective birth control: effective treatments for STDs; mass entry of women back into the labor force as unions began to decline and real wages stagnated, requiring two paychecks for the majority of all families, not just the lower classes. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by sjohnson

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, BuddhaBelly said:

I now have visions of Lily as the leader of a super violent suffragette group, stirring up women to murder their husbands in their sleep.

This should have really been the plot of the New Year's Sherlock movie instead of having him mansplain feminism to the coroner.

[Bec]

10 hours ago, BuddhaBelly said:

Dorian gives Lily access and money. She couldn't enter a lot of spaces if she wasn't on his arm, although I can't imagine her being accepted in polite company...but that's not what either of them are chasing. Also, I think that he never violated her. Yes, he paid her for sex but he treated her kindly for the most part.

I don’t know, I don’t think Brona was into it at all when Dorian paid her for sex. She was coughing up blood and he was like “awesome!” and the whole time he had a giant camera in the room photographing the whole thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if she remembers the experience as a degrading one and she is really pissed as all hell about it, just hiding it at the moment. As Lily does.

But yeah, she pretty much is, in turn, using Dorian for access and money. I don’t think so far it’s on the same level as what he did to Brona, because he is having a super fun time. I have the feeling she has more in store for him, and I can’t wait to find out what it’ll be.

9 hours ago, sjohnson said:

The show is quite clear that paying for sex deserves capital punishment. That's what Lily does (selectively) and the show has made her gloriously bad ass and sexy. And it has confirmed this by making Victor a weak and whining loser, whose aspirations to someone so out of his league as Lily are offensive, manifestations of male privilege.

To my mind, the show isn’t quite making any comment exactly on what anyone deserves. Lily is like a female version of the Punisher. And the Punisher is a pretty popular character, so why not? It’s a nice change of pace from the endless parade of “dead hookers” on TV shows like CSI, anyway.

Like the Punisher, she’s not a straight-up “good guy”, more of an anti-hero(ine) at best. We wouldn’t want someone playing judge, jury and executioner in real life, but damn, the fictional characters who do this are fun to watch.

To me, Victor isn't so bad, either. Lily was his first love, so he's not over her yet, I can cut him a little slack. I like that he sees his culpability in all this and just keeps trying to fix his mistakes (but sadly he has a way of making things worse). Lily totally toyed with his feelings on purpose last season, and that was cruel. I do feel bad for him.

I guess I like broken people with a dark side, too. Me and Vanessa Ives, two peas in a pod. Ha.

[sjohnson]

The Punisher is a superhero, complete with costume, even if his superpower to never get killed isn't explicit. There are such things as anti-heroes in fiction and drama, but generally when people talk about a character being an anti-hero, they just mean a hero who meets their core definition of a hero: The Winner. By any rational moral standards, all the characters on Penny Dreadful are villainous, murderers everyone. The only one who ever felt remorse was Ethan, but even he murdered a mother and child in the first episode. Since the show is nevertheless divided up into heroes and villains, basically the heroes are the attractive, powerful people, and the villains are the ugly, impotent people. The correlation isn't perfect. Dorian is pretty but he doesn't really do much, i.e., is weak, therefore he is barely a lead character. John Clare is powerful but ugly, so he plays a villain (albeit one hardly integrated into the plot.) Victor was a hero but he is so weak now he is being supplanted by Jekyll. And they made a point of having Ferdinand Lyles of all people kill a witch. 

[islandgal140]

I guess I am the lone moron because the Sweet is Dracula reveal was a total shocker to me. I was fearful at the end of the date that Dracula's minions would get him out of jealousy or something. I actually gasped and said "Oh shit!" when the camera panned out to show his face. Did not see that coming at all. I think it is mainly due to seeing those weird creatures S1. I was expecting more of a Nosferatu type Dracula, which I suppose could still be the case. I guess Dracula adopted a new strategy after his failure in S1. I still don't know why he decided to lead with weirdo monsters if his intent is to woo Vanessa as his bride/mother of evil. Unlike Lucifer who rules from below and at a distance through witches and the like, Dracula has human contact and you would think being around them in some vein since being evicted from heaven he would know better. Whatevs!  

On 5/9/2016 at 1:41 PM, iMonrey said:

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm a little tired of Vanessa. Every season there's some manifestation of ultimate evil obsessing over her, and I'm tired of it. I think it would have been more interesting if she had ultimately cast off her psychological demons and just helped solved things instead of being stalked and sought after yet again. And we already did vampires back in Season 1 . Enough already with this.

Yes to a degree. However, it isn't so much as being tired of Vanessa but more how she gets mired in depression (which I get, but don't really want to watch) and seems to spend a greater part of each season sitting around waiting to be victimized by dark forces. I like it when she is being protective. For instance, going to the Cut Wife and trying to get to the bottom of things. When they were all trying to decipher the tale of the 2 cast out of heaven.  I would like to see her develop in some way to combat the dark forces, which is where I thought things were going with the Cut Wife. That all came to nought as she could barely come up with anything to keep those heinous witches out of her home last season. 

I also don't get how everyone just seemed to abandon her at the end of S2. Maybe I have to go back and watch the end of last season but did they really think the threats had been completely annihilated? 

[ganesh]

I figured something was up with Sweet, but I don't think it was "so obvious" he was Dracula. If I sat down and thought about it a lot, then I can see arriving at that conclusion, since Vanessa can't even just go out for coffee with a guy. I pay careful attention, but I like to just immerse myself in the saw and let it take me along. 

I think Vanessa is getting pro active by going to the therapist, so hopefully she will be more actiony.

[RedHackle]

thanks so much to Givencare and Netfoot for answering my question and restoring my faith in the show.  Well spotted, you two.

[Bec]

The reason I thought Dr. Sweet was Dracula was because he reminds me of the guy who played Dracula on NBC's Dracula. Also, wasn't "Sweet" the name of a demon in Buffy? I did think it was a stretch to arrive at that conclusion based on these reasons, so I still got a moment of "OMG he's really Dracula!" at the reveal.