S01.E14: River Of Time

[tennisgurl]

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Heh, I think I'm the only outright fan of Rip.

I like Rip too. The guy is a mess of a person and a crap leader, but he gets called out on it all the time, and I think that means maybe the writers can write some decent character development. I also find him to be interesting. Really, I think all the characters are interesting and entertaining...except for the Hawks. My God are they boring. This show basically makes no sense, logically or from a plot perspective, but I really enjoy it because I love the characters and their chemistry. Except for Kendra and Carter, who are where chemistry goes to die. 

I did like all the flashbacks, and I loved Stein saving Jax. Did not love everyone going in to talk to Hannibal Boring. That was stupid, even for this show. And so was Ray. Listen, Ray, I love you. You have come a VERY long way to me from when I hated you on Arrow. I find you to be endearing and lovable, and I felt really bad for you this whole episode (you deserve better than Kendra and her reincarnation love triangle), but WHY did you do something so stupid? Why writers why? At least Ray is seperated from Kendra now. More Ray and Snart now, please! 

[Cekrypton1]

What can I say about the stupid that hasn't already been mentioned? You know, it's one thing when as the audience, you see what needs to be done and shout it at the TV, but it's entirely another to have characters on the show voice the same solutions, only to be ignored by the rest of the characters. The only thing that was a surprise was Jax getting hurt and sent home. Everything else that happened I could have told you about 30 seconds after the end of last week's episode. "Only 2 episodes left!"--I can't tell if that is meant as a threat or a promise.

[Latverian Diplomat]

Kind of a stretch that a 20th Century physicist could come up with a cure for "Temporal Radiation Poisoning" when the Time Masters haven't, but I guess he was motivated.

 

Vandal Savage didn't really need to escape or sabotage the ship did he? In fact he would have been smarter not to since that ended up bringing Carter's memories back (and if Rip & Kendra were smarter, Kendra would have immediately "maced" his head in once that happened).

 

But Ray was just such a chump, I guess Savage couldn't help himself. Ray is the hanging curve ball of emotional manipulation.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Latverian Diplomat

[Actionmage]

• Quote

  turgid soporific

  that is the name of my next garage band! ;p

If the current writers can't do romance ( and they don't seem to do it well in general), then don't do it! Either get someone in who can help or just don't force a romance on anyone. Kendra and Carter's "love" was forced though "destiny" and it just wasn't convincing. ( Yes, some of that goes to the actors as well.)

Jefferson and Martin-- I will be there for them all day, every day. I loved that Clarissa gets Martin, but their scene made me teary as much as Jefferson and his mom's scene.  (Why Jax's watch hands spinning was supposed to clue us in to the fx of the chronal poisoning? I don't know. Yes, it was speeding up, but then Jax should've been 100 or so by the time the show got back to him, right?) Franz' delivery of " You roofied me again?!" was just right and made me laugh  through my teariness. Love those two!

Hot/Cold-- I love these two nuts. I'm still waiting for Rory to find some yogurt and have some sort of reaction as a nod to Dominic's ads. So the snacks and the sugar-freeness of them was fun to me. Leonard just wanting to cut their losses was, no doubt, felt among the viewers to a degree, but I am glad that it's Uncle Len and Aunt Sara gunnin' for those nasty ol' Time Lords.

Ray/Kendra/Carter-- I am not here to restate the reasonable objections already stated. I still like Ray, but I'm really disappointed in how he handled everything this episode. Granted, he was the Designated Idiot Ball Monitor for the ep, so I can't get too worked up, but I am over Ray and Time-travelling romance. The lampshade-y/-adjacent " I'm going to save the world, not fall in love" was clunky and not cute.  I hope that the Hawks are alive and left in Coast City in 2016. Then they can have stupid arguments about whatever and not bother us after Kendra kills Savage's ass.  Carter was going to be a thankless role no matter who played him, but  while I am neutral on the actor, I never liked the looks of Carter we got.  His presence also, somehow, makes Kendra doubt herself, which I really dislike. If the Hawks are alive, just not on the ship, we can pick up Kendra for the one-off episode or small arc. Or Carter, but I'm just not as fond of Carter as Kendra.

Rip-- I still love Arthur, I still am okay with poor Rip. I am just over his roaming SpaceTime on his current mission. I can't say I wouldn't do the same damn thing in Rip's place, but hopefully I'd be smarter going about it. Anyway, I hope that there is no official leader next season. I love Sara, as any right-thinking viewer does *g*- but this being a ragtag bunch lends itself to group decisions and leadership as to the situation. To toss Rip out as leader is to disregard the knowledge he ( should have been displaying) has after 13 years on Gideon/ The Wave Rider. Not being The Leader should be restorative for Rip and maybe a storyline of the group slowly finding themselves deferring to him is something to think about, but an enforced de-titling, and hopefully Gideon just deciding to back Sara, could be an interesting story for our Poor Lost Time Lord.

Sara-- How Martin, Leonard and Sara don't just stay blind drunk is amazing. Sara, though, has a mothering instinct, despite her assassin training and her Arrow backstory. She's pragmatic, hopeful, loving, snarky and forgiving of others' flaws. She's just a BAMF all around. I would love to see how a team, and this team, would work under her direction. Even though is sometimes is already.  I think part of Sara's appeal on this show is that she can see parts of herself in the others.  That's why she stays with Rip and the team. Sara would effectively be abandoning herself. So she does what she does best- fight.

I am really excited to see how SnowBird pull off this rescue! I hope it's simple and elegant with periods of massive ass-kicking.

[Gregg247]

Oh, this show is so bad!  As soon as Ray was able to prove that Vandal Savage had been using time travel technology, I wondered if the Time Masters had had a hand in it.  Who else could have?  It took these idiots an entire episode to figure this out.

I hate Vandal Savage, but I enjoyed watching how easy it was for him to turn "our heroes" against each other.  What if they had hired the actor who plays Vandal to play Rip instead?  That may have been a better show.

I hope they clean house next season and give us a Legends team 2.0.  Keep CC, HW, and White Canary.  Everyone else is disposable.  My absolute least favorites are Carter and Rip; especially Rip.  He's the dumbest lead character of a TV series I think I've ever seen.

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

I don't know that he's working with the Time Masters so much as they regard him as a necessary component in the timeline.  Maybe in 2231 an alien race of flesh-eaters invade Earth and without the harsh but brilliant military leadership of Vandal Savage the aliens eat all the humans and pick their teeth with our bones.  Sure, Vandal Savage is evil, but maybe he's a necessary evil.

I got the impression that it was more than him being important to the timeline.  I think that he is playing around with time travel himself proves that he is somehow working with them.  Maybe it's as simple as they have their own reasons to back his population control plans.  Whatever the reason, he was more than a cog in the system because he was allowed to walk around the station freely.  It almost seemed to hint that the Time Masters are doing his bidding.  One of those paradoxes of which came first.  Maybe VS created the TM's to "fix" time so that he can succeed.

9 hours ago, squidprincess said:

Heh, I think I'm the only outright fan of Rip.  I just find him really interesting. I actually really like that he's a terrible leader.

I think it's because I get so tired of seeing characters who suffer trauma end up the usual hyper competent, yet equally hyperviolent badass who also is a total ass.  That seems like the default portrayal, if the trauma is acknowledged at all.  

Rip though expresses trauma symptoms that I actually recognize: depressive episodes, apathy and recklessness, inability to relate to people, very poor decision making (understatement).  They aren't cool symptoms, they didn't turn him into a badass (if anything, his reputation implies that he was far more competent before.)  I am curious to see what he'll be once the Savage situation is resolved.

That said, essentially making Sara the second in command was the smartest thing he's ever done.

Sadly Ray and Carter are the weakest links for me, but I think Ray is definitely salvageable.  I'd like to see Carter gone. I've never seen a portrayal of Hawkman that I actually liked, and Carter is no different.

I still love RIp!  I don't even think he's incompetent, just really bad at explaining his plans.  He usually has good reasons for why he's doing stuff but we lack that knowledge. 

I enjoy Ray a lot too and think he got dragged down by the black hole surrounding Kendra.  I knew something was off about how Kendra "loved" him since they were lost back in time. Ray knew it then too but he didn't want to believe it. 

[CabotCove]

Worth watching for the flashbacks, beautiful cinematography and a nice touch. 

They just let an immortal supervillian, hang in some glassroom like he was in his office, they just let him  hang without securing at least 50 chains all over his body. Urrrgh show.  Everything just felt contrived after that.

Other Bright spots: Sara operating the ship, Jax little plot of turning into whatever that was lol, cute bromances with Grey, Mick & Len.

Edited May 7, 2016 by WildcardC

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Legends Of Tomorrow Reach The End Of Time

But are the Time Masters happy to see them?

[justjoan]

How does this version of Savage's immortality work? Have they even told us? He doesn't reincarnate like the Hawks (... I don't think), so if you stab him, does he lie there for a while and then come back to life, like on Highlander? Or would you have to stab him, like, 413 times (206 Carter/Kendra deaths, plus an extra Carter) to wear down his stolen life-force, and then he dies? Or what?

I'm just wondering because the problem has never been killing him; they've done that several times. It's been keeping him dead. So why didn't someone just shoot him in the head, drag him off to the Time Masters, and then wait for him to revive once there? Much less danger and much less irritating Hannibal-blather that way.

I'm not surprised that Rip had no idea the Time Masters were evil. They saved him from whatever Artful Dodger existence he was living, and made sure he was safe and fed. They gave him a mother, a home, an education and a purpose. They used debt and reward to shape him into a tool they could use. That's the kind of thing that breeds powerful, even fanatical, devotion, and it's apparently their usual method of recruitment. A small part of him probably still believes (even now!) that he owes them everything. No wonder personal relationships with spouses and children are forbidden. They can certainly be used as weapons against a Time Master, ie the Council's official reasoning, but beyond that, a Time Master with a family is one whose loyalties are no longer to the Council alone. Miranda and Jonas are his biggest weakness, but they're also his salvation. Would he ever have questioned the Council if they hadn't been killed? He was by all accounts an excellent and loyal agent until then, and doesn't seem to have doubted them at all. Eve Baxter doesn't seem to have any doubts either. They are/were both willing to kill or die for the Council as needed, but neither of them is shown to be a sociopath or anything like that (Rip's a mental health disaster, yes, but not that kind). They were told from an early, vulnerable age that the Time Masters were a force for good in the universe, and they believed it. Who knows what they've been ordered to do to enforce that "good"? Creepy, creepy stuff. It surely doesn't help that Time Masters work alone, so if they start to question their orders, they can only question themselves, or call back home to the Council. Remember how dangerous a team supposedly is? A team, like a family, is a double-edge sword.They can be dangerous because they run around getting in trouble and changing things, like our Legends, or because they start asking inconvenient questions, causing doubts, and, again, changing things (they've all had moments of this, but especially Martin, Sara and Ray. And Leonard, actually, in his own way). No wonder the Council wasted no time swearing out the kill orders.

Poor Rip. He's lost, broken, been robbed of and betrayed everything that ever mattered to him. He has, as far as he knows, utterly failed in his mission, and gotten both his family and his team killed. Oh, and his life was built on a lie, which is a fun surprise. And they even took away Jonah's duster! If only he knew Sara and Snart were still on the loose. I know I would find that very reassuring.

[AudienceofOne]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I got the impression that it was more than him being important to the timeline.

He meets Rip, Rip is a time traveller, he realises time travel is possible, he invents time travel, time travel results in the Time Lords (I can never remember their real name), and so they need Savage in the timeline to ensure their own creation. Eventually, they'll kill Savage and the Time Master/Lords/Council whatever will cease to exist. And then [paradox technobabble] the "Legends" will be the only time travellers left.

[FurryFury]

Ugh, two bad episodes in a row... which, no surprise here, heavily feature Vandal Savage and the Hawktriangle. Yawn. Everybody got to be extra stupid this time, although not the Barry Allen opening the portal to Earth-2 and giving up his speed stupid. Although Ray sure did everything to beat Barry.

I did like Sara/Rip scenes because I still enjoy this relationship and I liked that she got the respect she deserves. Plus, her not leaving the ship rang true to the character. And the flashbacks! I had my share of issues with Sara/Nyssa (mostly because Nyssa behaved like a murderous stalker back in "Heir to the Demon"), but this scene almost redeemed her in my eyes. Finally, some closure. 

Didn't really care about Ray/Felicity scene, almost all my goodwill towards Ray has evaporated. He could have been cool, but they stuck him with Kendra who even manages to make her scenes with Sara boring, never mind any other member of the team. She and Carter are like blackholes, sucking all energy from the show.

At least next episode seems to be more promising. 

[KirkB]

The Time Masters, though, are in a really weird position. If I understand everything correctly (and I may not) they need Rip to betray them but they also need him to ultimately fail at his goal. Savage is, apparently (directly or indirectly, I'm not sure) responsible for their being created. Savage got to that position because a crazy British guy tried to kill him in ancient Egypt. Rip was that crazy British guy, who was trained by the Time Masters. Savage killed Rip's family, forcing Rip to turn against them and first attempt to kill Savage, then later recruit the Legends to help him. Savage was able to find and kill Rip's family because Rip and his Legends tried to kill him. So if they hadn't made Rip a Time Master, and if Rip hadn't betrayed them to stop Savage, who was able to take over the world because of Rip, then Savage wouldn't have come up with his own time travel, which led to the Time Masters, who were able to train Rip. Ah, temporal causality.

[kismet]

Initial thoughts without reading previous posts (having been mildly spoiled by Mind Your Surroundings in Arrow).

Overall it felt like a okay episode. I wonder if all of those guest loved one shots were shot earlier and kept to be put in Character themed episodes, but then they forgot about them and threw them all in this one. They were all sweet scenes but it was a little jarring to jump in between different people's flashbacks and then back to a show which was primarily just people visiting Savage. Also the timing of the scenes seemed to contradict the timeline of events that were already shown in the Flarrowverse. 

Guess the best way to organize my thoughts is by character.

Rip - Feel really bad, he thought he was achieving his goal and bringing justice only to be screwed over by the Time Masters. Seriously, why didn't they just tell him VS was necessary earlier. Unless they did, and either I missed it or Rip conveniently forgot to tell others. I thought they were chasing Rip & Co for messing with time to avenge Rip's family. I know they wanted that twist for the finale, but it really feels like it completely undoes a lot of what the show was built around as opposed to revealing critical secret stuff.

Stein/Jax - Loved seeing Jax old, but why didn't Stein just go back to 2016 as well? Also why didn't he tell other people that the jump ship was going to 2016 and let other people hope on if they wanted to. It felt very selfish for Stein to commandeer the jump ship and not open up the trip to others. Other than that, I really don't believe the deepness of the bond between the two of them yet, its only been about 10wks that I thought the goodbye scene was a little too faux-emotive. Also, I think we could have a show with no Jax but keep Stein - clearly as much as he loves Clarissa he doesn't seem eager to return to her. But like I said on the other thread, why not just bring her on the show and she can be the Den Mom of the ship.

Sara- They are definitely setting her up to take Rip's place. I do not believe Rip is going to be around next season. Or if he is, his role is going to be completely different. Once again, she is the most consistent and MVP of the team. Initially I was surprised that they didn't have her on the team fighting to get VS back in custody - cuz I thought it would make more sense to have RP drive the ship instead of fight, but then I realized that her commanding the ship is probably more important for future episodes because it does totally look like she is gonna get promoted in the LoT crew once Rip is unable to hold the post either by death, mutiny or choice.

Kendra/Carter - They needs to go. Seriously nothing good to say. Although when Carter showed up the the Mace I thought he might have remembered who he was and helped them, but no we had to wait until near death again for the big memory surge. Predictable and boring.

Ray - Man, I feel bad for him - never thought I would say that. Boy keeps on falling in love with women that are never going to be available to him. Although I will say for as intelligent as he is supposed to be the guy is really dumb. He said he knew that VS was manipulating him and yet still decided to go in for a knockout session. It was necessary for plot, but it was so dumb. I really wish they had found another way for VS to escape that wasn't at the expense of RP. They really do make him look foolish in almost every episode, so at least that is consistent.

Rory & Snart - Love them, don't understand what took them so long to get to the jump ship. Good supporting players this episode.

Vandal - Should have known and episode built around people visiting VS was not going to be that good of episode. The actor is great at delivering motivating speeches to his minions and manipulating others, but not a ship while being held captive in glass cell. It was just boring to watch and honestly I could have done without his recounting his great love story. Also he has held his dying children, which is sad but its not the team's or the world's fault that he is immortal. I get perhaps wanting to find a way to make his loved ones live as long as him, but his motivation for destroying the world just seemed a little wonky from what he was describing was his biggest complaints.

Random thought - Did anyone else have Billy Joel's "River of Dreams" running through their head for most of the show? Perhaps it was because I watched in online and saw the title "River of Time" that inspired my mental song selection, but still it was oddly distracting and calming at the same time. :)

Edited May 7, 2016 by kismet

[Lady Calypso]

I skipped last episode because I heard Carter came back, but I tuned in for this episode because of Nyssa and Felicity. But....wow.....

First off, the Hawk triangle. I thought I would be fine with Kendra sticking around next season as long as Carter wasn't around, but now I do not want her coming back next season. I dislike the Ray/Kendra thing because it was literally a waste of time. Them getting together was just a detour while Carter was gone. It didn't mean anything, it didn't teach Kendra anything, and it wasted screen time that could have been useful for other characters. After Kendra insisting that she chooses her own destiny and her and Ray can be happy....they throw it away when Carter comes back with her being so devoted to him. I knew it was going to end like this, and it's stupid. Sure, Kendra/Ray got to have a few episodes of their romance, but in the end, it didn't even matter because the destiny crap played out and her and Carter are going to be together in the end. 

Plus, now Ray got to be stupid and have his heart broken. I actually like Ray a lot now, and I feel so bad that he now gets to witness his now ex girlfriend become closer with her resurrected boyfriend. He really had no chance, but he believed Kendra when she said that she'd choose him and it's her choice. Then, she does this and immediately turns to Carter the moment he returns. I don't know why he would think opening Savage's cell and punching him would do anything, but he clearly was not thinking straight at all. And look what happened! I probably would have just punched Carter over and over again. 

Overall, I was really rooting for Savage for that one moment when he stabbed Carter. That guy is useless. He keeps getting killed first before Kendra (presumably). You'd think after 209 resurrections, he'd learn how to do something different that doesn't get him near death or actually dead. 

Rip's not a good leader at all, but I can't blame him for that ending. He has trusted the Time Masters since they've taken him in and taught him from a young age. It was nice to see him admit to Sara that he is selfish and let Jax almost get killed for his family. It's not a good thing for him to do, but I give him points for recognizing that he is doing that. At this point, I wonder if his family has to stay dead in order for him to fully grow as a character by the finale. It would give him something to sacrifice for the greater good. 

Sara is seriously one of the best written female characters on television to date. She is such a well rounded character and has grown so much from the girl who was sleeping with Oliver while he was dating her sister. She is clearly shaping to be the leader for next season, or at least just a leader in general. It's actually nice that even thought she's pissed at Rip for putting Jax in danger, she is still loyal to the team and to the mission. Priorities, girl! I seriously am so happy that they brought her back from the dead. She's a treasure, really.

Snart and Rory? Well, it's typical for them to leave when they don't benefit, but I'm glad that they ended up having to stay. 

Jax and Stein? I liked their flashback moments. I do think that both could end up leaving the team, because Stein has his wife who he most likely misses, and Jax will be fine back in 2016; I'd miss them, but if they wanted to get rid of characters other than the Hawks, these two would have the most reason to leave. But I don't understand why Stein didn't go back with Jax? I mean, I know he probably wants to finish the mission, but he can't do that if he dies. I honestly won't be surprised if we see Jax somehow get back to the ship to help out by the finale. But yeah, Stein, you won't be useful to the team if you're dying! Remember the last time you lost your partner? You almost died if you hadn't found Jax! I know it's a bit different this time, but still. Stein's sacrifice could hinder the team more than benefit them, so he really should have just gone back to 2016. I did laugh at Jax's "You drugged me...AGAIN?" line. The way he delivered it was fantastic. 

Savage....yeah, the only moment I like from him is when he's killing Carter. Otherwise, they should have found a different villain...or different actor. 

[tessaray]

I just finished binge watching the last 3 episodes.  Sorry to say that when it comes down to watching stuff on the dvr, I almost always pick other things than LoT the last couple of months but I can't quite quit the show either.  But I'm paying for it with a stupidity-induced headache and a complete loathing for Vandal Savage and the Hawks.  If they don't all die in the next 2 episodes, even Sara being her bad-ass self won't be able to save the show for me.  

I didn't really follow Stein's techno-babble with Jax but I'm going to guess that whatever fix he came up with on the spur of the moment that would allow the reversal of Jax's time radiation sickness depended on Jax being the only passenger in the jump ship.  Or else the stupidity of Stein staying behind will just make my headache even worse. 

As crappy a Captain as Rip is, I don't want to lose him.  Sara, Snart and Rory need some kind of quasi-authority to play against.  And I like Sara as second in command - I have a feeling that next season she's going to be torn between her Rogues and the kind of life she could have with Rip, so he needs to stick around for that.  

I should say something about Ray but I got nothin' - well, except that all the 10 year old viewers will be devastated if he isn't around next season, so there is that.  I mean, giant robot fights and all...

[Sakura12]

I think Captain Cold has been a better influence on Sara than Rip has. Rip wanted her to be the killer and kill Stein, Rip said he'd sell them out to save his family. While Captain Cold told Sara she's not just a killer anymore and said he wouldn't leave behind a team member.  Rip's not interested in being a hero, he just wants to save his family. 

I think Sara can help the Rogues become more heroic, they respect her and will listen to her as she would listen to them. Sara can be an authority figure, a leader. Which seems to be where she's heading. (yet another trait of the Black Canary). If they only get one more season, I hope it ends with Sara leading a team of heroes. 

[squidprincess]

Rip didn't WANT her to kill Stein, he just wanted her to be ready if it turned out to be the only way to save Star City.  He was as happy as anyone that it wasn't necessary.

He also had encouraged the training between Kendra and Sara to help both women to address their issues.  And later, used that bond to help Sara later when she had joined Ra's al'Ghul.

Honestly, Sara has great platonic interactions with both men.  So that is definitely something I hope they explore next season.

Edited May 7, 2016 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

Rip didn't give a shit that Sara was struggling with who she is. He brought her on the ship because she's a killer. As he even said he'd sell them out to save his family. 

I just don't think Rip is the best person for Sara to be hanging around if she wants to be a better person. Rip's too selfish for that. 

[tessaray]

I actually agree that CC/HW have been better influences on a personal level than Rip has.  But Rip is - perhaps unconsciously - bringing out the leadership qualities that Sara has.  When she was the (real Black) Canary, she was so solitary.  Even with Oliver and Team Arrow, she was alone in so many ways.  Now she's the heart of the team.  Rip has been using her, sure, but she's flourished, meeting those challenges. 

[squidprincess]

14 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Rip didn't give a shit that Sara was struggling with who she is. He brought her on the ship because she's a killer. As he even said he'd sell them out to save his family. 

I just don't think Rip is the best person for Sara to be hanging around if she wants to be a better person. Rip's too selfish for that. 

That is disproven by their interactions in the 1975 arc (where he was horrified by her rage at the bank, but also told her that she wasn't a monster and encouraged her to be better), the Russia arc (when he urged Kendra to help Sara learn to control her impulses, and later complimented Sara for not taking the shot at Stein), and episode 9, when Rip had Kendra fight Sara to help Sara remember who she was.

Rip's actually been very respectful and supportive of Sara all along. It's probably one of the reasons that she didn't leave with the others.

Edited May 7, 2016 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

I think Sara didn't leave because she doesn't abandoned people in need. And the team needs her. 

[Lady Calypso]

Honestly, if anything, Rip has only been good with Sara. I think he's grown to care about her as a person. Despite his initial reasons for bringing each team member on board, Sara included, he has been shown to care for Sara a lot and and has actively encouraged her change to become a better person. Maybe she would have taken this path with or without Rip's help, but he was the first person to really help her work on her inner demon issues. Rip may have a lot of faults and he may have been shown to be using the team, but one of the positive things he's done is be supportive of Sara. She's the one he's interacted with the most consistently. 

Sara's a good person, but I do think she lost herself before Legends because of her death. She's been struggling with being a hero all season. Rip's a lot of things, and he definitely used Sara quite a bit in the first few episodes, but he has also shown more care toward her than most on the ship, Kendra included. As soon as he saw how out of control Sara was with her killer instinct, he stopped using her and started helping her. I think that makes all the difference. 

[spaulding]

Best part of the episode: Sara having her Capt. Kirk moment.  When she sits in the captain's chair and when the "seat belt" comes down, damn, she's going to get stuff done.  She looks heroic.

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But he fumbles all the time. I just see no trace of the man he supposedly was going by his reputation. And if I just never see any evidence that someone can be a good leader, even if they are currently not, then I can`t buy them. The ship`s captain should be a grounding figure on some level. The only time I ever saw a Rip who could be such a figure were the few seconds of his child self stabbing that assassin. In 14 episodes, that is too little for me. 

I agree.  Rip is a terrible captain because he's a sulking mess.  Drop the dead family from his backstory, and he would be great.  If the dead family issue is resolved in the season finale, I hope that he would be able to make better choices.  Or bring back Little Rip to become the new captain. 

In this episode, I didn't find Rip as insufferable as I usually do.  He was honest with how he would sacrifice everybody for his family, and the Time Council was manipulating him--probably since he was orphan. 

What wasn't cool was sending Jax to fix the Waverider.  He knew the possible danger of radiation poisoning but didn't warn Jax.  That's the type of play from Rip that I find insufferable. 

I liked that Stein did the right thing and put Jax in the jumpship.  Awww, he didn't to ask if anybody else wanted to go. 

On 5/6/2016 at 8:29 PM, nksarmi said:

I enjoyed killer, pyro, and klepto sitting around drinking and insisting that they needed to off Vandal because they are right - that was always the mission! So WTH?

I'm disappointed that they didn't fingerpoint at Kendra/Mary Sue. 

I can't believe that Barry Allen is no longer the most insufferable character in the flarrowverse.  Kendra would have been more helpful if she stayed in her room and fainted on her chaise lounge.  Fainted from the love/obsession from all these men. 

She wanted Carter to regain his memories.  Why?  She doesn't have all her memories.

If she left him alone, he would be a mindless drone for Savage.  When Savage dies, he'll be a mindless drone for another bad guy.  He'll be a Minion without the personality.  What's the big deal?  He keeps getting stabbed.  He's useless as a hawk-warrior, so he's not going to be helping anybody rule the world. 

On 5/6/2016 at 8:33 PM, Sakura12 said:

 I would've laughed forever if Carter did get killed again. 

It should be a running gag for this show.  Every season, Carter shows up to immediately get stabbed. 

Kendra continues to be as useless as Carter.  I don't think that she had any training as a goddess/priestess.  She didn't like the mace that Carter gave her as a birthday present.  Sara had to continue to train her.  There's no way that she would have been the last person standing against Savage and Carter. 

Ray, you were a hero in the last episode.  You're an idiot in this episode. 

Vandal Savage.  He's not a Big Bad, but I didn't mind him in this episode.  When people visited his cell, he used the opportunity to mindfuck them.  I kinda respect that.  And I was so damn amused that he kept Rip's nudie pen.

I can't wait to see what Sara, Cold, and Mick do to the Time Council.  Mick, here's your chance to exact revenge for having them send the Pilgrim to kill you.  Sara and Cold get closer.  Cold, you can always get it, you sexy beast.  Sara, enjoy. 

Randomness: Mick eating sugar-free food.  I feel ya, Mick.  That stuff sucks. 

More Randomness:  In his cell, Rip looked hot in those jeans. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by spaulding

[Sakura12]

He saw Sara's bloodlust before he asked her to kill Stein, the bank was in episode 3, the kill Stein mission was in episode 5. How was that helping her? I guess I just don't like Rip and think he's a terrible Captain. He's risking this group of people for his gain. He uses them and only after they get hurt does he apologize for it, then he does it again the next episode to someone else.

He trusts her, yes, but his inability to think beyond his family makes him a terrible person to be any kind of mentor to her. I think being on the team is bringing out Sara's leadership qualities, it has very little to do with Rip. When Oliver was with Slade and his family, it was Sara that took control and rallied his team. That quality was always there. Rip didn't allow her to be leader, she took charge because he sucks at it. The rest of the team would follow her because she doesn't lie to them. She's a leader because the team likes and respects her. The same cannot be said of Rip. I've noticed that Sara never calls Rip, Captain, kind of showing that she doesn't respect his authority all that much. The only time she did was episode when she said she doesn't know if she can be on a team with a Captain that doesn't care about his crew. 

Sara stayed, not just because of Rip. She stayed because she does care about the other people in the crew. 

 get he's going through a trauma, but Sara's gone through multiple traumas (including coming back from the dead with a need to kill people) and she didn't decide to using people to help herself. If they lose the lost family angle next season maybe we can see the real Rip. Maybe he'll be better. 

[squidprincess]

The episode was very clear to show that the Stein situation was a matter of necessity.  If Vostok had succeeded, the entire USA, including Star City, would be facing a Firestorm-caused apocalypse.  Even then, Rip didn't order Sara to do it.  He asked her to be ready to make that choice if it looked like there was no other way.  He was as happy as she was that it turned out not to be necessary.

And honestly, the idea that someone could be a "terrible person" for wanting to save an innocent woman and child (not to mention the other countless people Savage is likely to continue to kill after 2166...the man IS immortal after all) is simply bewildering to me.  Not in the least because Rip has actively put his own goals at risk to the team before this episode (see among other times: putting aside a strike against Savage to get Carter's body back for Kendra, being the first to suggest reforming Mick instead of writing him off, placing his younger self in the center of a trap for the Pilgrim, and in this episode, never ONCE trying to push Kendra into killing Savage, even though all of his problems would have been solved if she up and did it.)  Rip sometimes needs to be reminded of the smaller scale ways they can help people, but his overall goal: saving his family and the world, is still an altruistic one.  Not to mention that he offers the characters an out every single story arc, and in this episode, he told them specifically about the jump ship's capabilities and did not try to keep anyone from using it to leave.  

I don't think anyone's suggested Rip has been a mentor to Sara, but he has openly aided and supported her throughout the series.  He's always accepted her input in any plan.  He initially argued with her in future Star City, but in the end, he'd waited for her longer than he said he would, and sent the cavalry after her (with encouragement from Stein to be fair.)  He listens to her criticism, even if he doesn't always agree, and relies on her backup (as we see when Per Degaton is involved, among other episodes.)  And honestly, to me, it seems like Sara generally returns his respect, and that's why she was so disappointed in him this episode.

Sara's trauma is different from Rip's.  Sara's reaction is different from Rip's.  (Personally, I can't imagine any thing worse than repeatedly watching your child die, but I don't believe that personal traumas are comparable in that sense.)  That doesn't change the fact that Rip Hunter is one of the most realistically traumatized characters that I've ever seen.  The less flattering aspects and all.

Edited May 8, 2016 by squidprincess

[FurryFury]

I think Rip is like Jones from 12 Monkeys (another time-traveling show!) in that they have both selfish and altruistic goals that coincide, saving their children/wife in Rip's case and the world from destruction, with both willing to pay a heavy price for that. The question is what these characters would do when faced with a choice between these two goals, and I absolutely believe it would and should happen, at least briefly. I think Rip should emphasize his nobler goal more, though. 

I don't think Rip was horrible to Sara at all. I like their relationship because they challenge each other and both have strong opinions. It has that adversarial quality that I tend to really enjoy without descending into outright hostility.

Unpopular opinion: I'm not sure I want Sara to become a leader. At least not just yet. I think she's just finding herself and learning who she is and what she wants to be. A good leader has to have a really strong motivation and understanding of themselves, and Sara's not there. Also, she doesn't really have any personal connection to the time traveling business, so I can't really imagine why she would lead this team. Her conviction to being a hero isn't powerful enough - remember coming back to Nanda Parbat?

[KirkB]

7 hours ago, FurryFury said:

I think Rip is like Jones from 12 Monkeys (another time-traveling show!) in that they have both selfish and altruistic goals that coincide, saving their children/wife in Rip's case and the world from destruction, with both willing to pay a heavy price for that. The question is what these characters would do when faced with a choice between these two goals, and I absolutely believe it would and should happen, at least briefly. I think Rip should emphasize his nobler goal more, though. 

To be fair, pretty much everyone on the team has some degree of this. Rip told them what they wanted to hear to get them to do what he needed. Snart and Rory came along not so much because they cared about saving the world but because that thought it might be an easy way to get rich. Stein saw it as a once in a lifetime opportunity and forced Jax to come against his will. Ray needed to stroke his ego because he felt he had no impact on the world and thought this might be a way for him to be important. Kendra didn't even want to go, Carter egged her into a fight and basically decided for them both. Sara basically came along because she didn't seem to have any real purpose in her new life.

Directly and intentionally or not, Rip is helping most of them get better. Having the others around seems to be helping Rip realize what kind of an asshole he has become since the death of his family, though he doesn't know how to be anything more yet. Snart appears to genuinely like helping people, though fighting and stealing is fun too. Rory just likes to burn things and now has it out for the Time Masters. Stein realizes what happened to Jax is as much his fault for making him come along as it was Rip's for sending him into the engine room in the first place. Ray still wants to be a hero but I think has begun to see helping people is more important than getting credit for it. Kendra had backslid a little, in that she seemed to be determined to kill Savage after he killed Carter, only Savage apparently anticipated this and made a point of using a future incarnation of Carter against her. So she seems to be more concerned with her own feelings for Carter than the greater good. Carter, of course, is just around to be stabbed so he doesn't get a vote. And Sara, I think, has discovered being with people who can understand her allows her to open up more. She is finding a new purpose.

Edited May 8, 2016 by KirkB

[Sakura12]

I think Sara's new purpose is going to be leading a team. Maybe not yet. Maybe she'll continue to be Rip's second and take control when he's not there. I still think the team respects her much more than they do Rip. He needs to earn that from them, by stop lying and using them for his own gain and actually be a Captain. My hope is for whatever happens with his family (whether they save them or not) he finally steps up and takes charge of his team. These people might be nobodies in history but they are still people. He has trouble seeing all of them in that way. So far it's only Sara that he sees and I think it's because he knows she's the team MVP, without her he's screwed. 

I think the main point of this show is to show that they are all learning from each other. It's not just Rip that's changing Sara, it's the team. So I can't give him that much responsibility for Sara's change. He's just been a slower learner than her. I like the actor but I'm not a fan of Rip. He's not a lost cause like Kendra, so I have hope that he can get better for me. 

[jhlipton]

16 hours ago, spaulding said:

Vandal Savage.  He's not a Big Bad, but I didn't mind him in this episode.  When people visited his cell, he used the opportunity to mindfuck them.  I kinda respect that.  And I was so damn amused that he kept Rip's nudie pen.

That didn't make sense.  VS seemed genuinely confused as to how Rip got out of his cell, but then we see that he knew all along.  Seems like just a bit of fluff to work in the nudie-pen sight gag,

[squidprincess]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I think Sara's new purpose is going to be leading a team. Maybe not yet. Maybe she'll continue to be Rip's second and take control when he's not there. I still think the team respects her much more than they do Rip. He needs to earn that from them, by stop lying and using them for his own gain and actually be a Captain. My hope is for whatever happens with his family (whether they save them or not) he finally steps up and takes charge of his team. These people might be nobodies in history but they are still people. He has trouble seeing all of them in that way. So far it's only Sara that he sees and I think it's because he knows she's the team MVP, without her he's screwed. 

You know, I honestly don't get where the perception of Rip "using them for his own gain" comes in at all.  The phrasing of Rip "using" his team has connotations of deceit and manipulation and control, Rip has none of these.

From the first episode, the team has known what Rip wanted from them (kill Vandal Savage), even if it took an episode or so for him to tell them the real reason why.  They know what the stakes are.  They know how hard it's going to be.

They're all adults (even young Jax), they're all volunteers, and he's given them the option to leave basically every time they have a new goal.  And we can see that it's not an empty offer, because he made no moves to stop them in this episode.

Not a single character is there because they HAVE to be there.  Kendra, arguably, is the ONLY one with survival stakes in this mission, because Savage keeps killing her and Carter.  There is nothing keeping any of them from going home. 

Rip is only "using them" in the same way that Barry "uses" the Star Labs crew, or Oliver "uses" Diggle and Felicity.  He's asked them for help and, for their own reasons, they're choosing to give it.

[ottoDbusdriver]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

That didn't make sense.  VS seemed genuinely confused as to how Rip got out of his cell, but then we see that he knew all along.  Seems like just a bit of fluff to work in the nudie-pen sight gag,

But that's the weird part -- that nudie pen should have been nearly 4000 years old by the time VS showed it to Rip.  It should have turned to dust long ago.

[spaulding]

For most of this season, Rip has been insufferable.  Now, he's less so because the show is heavily implying that he'll sacrifice his family for the rest of the population. 

16 hours ago, squidprincess said:

And honestly, the idea that someone could be a "terrible person" for wanting to save an innocent woman and child (not to mention the other countless people Savage is likely to continue to kill after 2166...the man IS immortal after all) is simply bewildering to me.

Rip is deeply flawed; however, his best moment was trying to rescue Carter because the blood ritual was horrible.  He has had his small moments.

However, he's certainly not altruistic or noble or heroic.  He may want to save the world, but it's a distant second to saving his family.  If Kendra gets called out for not killing Savage at the expense of her boring boyfriend, Rip should be called out for the same reason.

Rip is under no obligation to save anybody other than his family.  But there's no way that he's altruistic, noble, or heroic when he wants to save only his family.

17 hours ago, squidprincess said:

Rip sometimes needs to be reminded of the smaller scale ways they can help people, but his overall goal: saving his family and the world, is still an altruistic one.

As a Time Master, Rip had no problem leaving Calvert to be wiped away.  He deserved the punch from Jonah Hex.

Before his family was murdered, Rip didn't do anything to stop Savage.  I have no doubt that Rip was aware of Savage in the timeline.  He could have tried to stop Savage at any point, including when Savage unleashes the Armageddon Virus or his giant robot.  When it was apparent that Savage was openly rising to power, he could have done something, including saving other people besides his family.  He also could have asked for help from the Time Council at an earlier point. 

Rip had no interest in stopping Stalin and his purge.  He could have gone to a time period with Stalin and Savage, who was learning to torture people from Stalin.  Instead, he went after Savage alone because he was directly responsible for the death of his family.

He didn't do anything until Savage became personal to him.  All those people that Savage murdered before Rip's family are just as important as Rip's family and Savage's future victims (post-2166).

Repeatedly, he watched his family die.  He kept manipulating time for a different outcome for his family.  He's still trying.  How many people did he try to help along with his family to escape Savage?  I don't know.  He doesn't seem to mention other people when he talks about saving his family.  He didn't talk about gathering other people to escape in the Waverider when his family was murdered by shock-troopers.  He mentions his family.  That's it.

He was irritated when the refugees boarded the Waverider.  Martin was the one who insisted.  I don't think that it occurred to Rip to save those people from the encampment at that moment.

17 hours ago, squidprincess said:

 (Personally, I can't imagine any thing worse than repeatedly watching your child die, but I don't believe that personal traumas are comparable in that sense.)

I don't know.  It's pretty, pretty bad to murder a minor who hasn't done anything to save your son.  A life for a life.  He doesn't go through with it, but it doesn't make him noble, heroic, or altrustic.

He didn't want the team to know what he was going to do.  That sounds like hiding something.  Sara deduced what Rip was going to do.

17 hours ago, squidprincess said:

That doesn't change the fact that Rip Hunter is one of the most realistically traumatized characters that I've ever seen.  The less flattering aspects and all.

It's a less flattering portrayal of a traumatized character, but he still needs to be called out when he's an asshole and when he's being selfish.  His trauma doesn't give him a pass.  Sara doesn't give herself a pass for her bloodlust.

If Rip doesn't see himself as a hero, that's great.  He's not.  A hero struggles to rise above his own flaws.  Rip won't rise above his own flaws until the finale when he has to sacrifice his family.

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

These people might be nobodies in history but they are still people. He has trouble seeing all of them in that way.

I agree.  Initially, Rip choose people who wouldn't be missed in history.  However, they're still people, and their lives matter. 

Futurama did a great episode about sacrificing Fry for the sake of the universe:  What's one person in the face of billions?  But it was my life. 

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think the main point of this show is to show that they are all learning from each other. It's not just Rip that's changing Sara, it's the team. So I can't give him that much responsibility for Sara's change.

Being around good people like Martin and Jax probably helps Sara too.  Same with being besties with Cold and Mick. 

As individuals, they have bonded and have become better people.  Cold and Mick have become better around Sara.

1 hour ago, squidprincess said:

You know, I honestly don't get where the perception of Rip "using them for his own gain" comes in at all.  The phrasing of Rip "using" his team has connotations of deceit and manipulation and control, Rip has none of these.

Rip has been less than honest with the team.  He hasn't fully disclosed everything. 

If he's willing to sacrifice the team for his family, he's kinda using them.  If he didn't warn Jax about the possibility of radiation poisoning while fixing the Waverider, he's kinda using them. 

These people are adults and chose to stay with Rip to fight Savage.  However, Rip has been less than honest with them.  Maybe with him being less than honest, he does gain a little something.  Like not having radiation poisoning, so he can be alive when he reunites with his family.

[dkb]

On 5/6/2016 at 9:39 PM, nksarmi said:

Lance, Snart, and Mick are definitely the best part of the show, but I would keep Stein/Jax and Ray if they never let Ray have another love interest again. Ray is great when he geeking out with Stein about science stuff or playing the innocent straight man to Snart's wordly bad boy. But Ray gets stupid when he's in love so no more of that please. When he is no longer being used in the Flarrowverse, they can tell me he met someone and fell in love and lived happily ever after - but while he's on my television - single Atom is the best Atom.

 

On 5/6/2016 at 2:38 AM, patchwork said:

I really hope that the Hawkes aren't back for season 2, they and Savage are by far the weakest part of the show.

 

On 5/6/2016 at 6:29 AM, AudienceofOne said:

As far as I'm concerned, she, Carter and Savage can die horrible deaths soon. And after this episode, I wouldn't be too upset if they took Ray with them.

I would be sad if Ray left. Maybe it's just Brendan Routh but I like Ray (without the Kendra). Like last episode I can't believe I was even remotely into the Ray/Kendra thing. 

On 5/6/2016 at 8:49 AM, kirinan said:

I don't want anyone else from Arrow or Flash on this show. I think they're starting to rely on tie-backs too much (especially Arrow; I'm tired of not knowing what's going on in certain scenes because I don't watch that show. And I don't care to start). I just want Savage and Carter gone for sure, and I'm leaning toward Kendra, too. I believe Ray and Rip can be salvaged with some good writing. The rest, IMO, are untouchable. 

I agree with all of this. I would be upset if we lost Ray. I think Ray without the Hawkes would be good next season, and I feel all the crap with them this season will make him less naive in the future. If they were going to put Kendra and Carter back together, I don't get what the point of Ray/Kendra was at all. They just needed some romance stuff on the episodes? Boo 

[squidprincess]

I always find the argument about helping other people, such as Martin's refugees, interesting.  I generally agree with Martin there, or with Ray in the Wild West.  I think that's the point and one of the flaws of Rip's character.  It's not that he cares only about his family, because his first inclination had been to stop Savage in Egypt, which would have rendered none of this necessary.  But he also has a very narrow focus.

From Rip's perspective, helping the refugees with Stein wasn't a factor, because ideally when Kendra killed Savage, he'd no longer be a factor or a danger to the refugees.  Obviously, Stein was right that it was important to help them now.  

But I don't think it's accurate to say that Rip ONLY cares about saving his family.  One thing I noticed when I watched the episodes again recently is that Rip almost never uses the words "saving" when he talks about his family.  Instead, he talks about avenging them.  And I think that's fairly important to consider when examining Rip's motives throughout the series.  The other team members (usually Sara or Stein) will talk about Rip's desire to save his family, but Rip himself seems to go back and forth on saving vs. avenging (until this last episode when Vandal is contained.  Even then, he still doesn't ask Kendra to abandon Carter and kill Savage.).  He absolutely wants Vandal Savage stopped though.  And he's never lied about that with the crew.  

I think it says something that the Jax incident is the only time the question about whether or not Rip would choose his family over the crew even comes up.  Because every other time, he has actually chosen the crew over his own goals: as mentioned before, getting Carter's body back meant abandoning a method to weaken Savage, reforming Mick put someone who'd once betrayed the entire team back onto the crew.  Even when he doesn't initially want to help, like with Martin's refugees or Salvation, he ends up involved anyway.  

And honestly, YMMV here, but the Jax incident seemed like more of an accident than anything else.  He DID fail to tell Jax about the radiation, and that was big.  But from his discussion with Martin about it, it really did seem as though he thought the radiation wasn't as much of a risk as it turned out to be.  He still really needs to beg Jax's forgiveness for that blunder, but it didn't look like malicious deceit.  It's also not like he picked Jax to go in there at random, Jax had been basically acting as mechanic/engineer for the Waverider for quite a while now.  For all his guilty confession to Sara, sending Jax in there (with appropriate warnings, which is where Rip dropped the ball), was a fairly logical choice.

Edited May 8, 2016 by squidprincess

[tessaray]

I don't mind Rip's not saving people mindset - as in Doctor Who, to a time traveler these people are already long dead. Plus there is the extra caution to NOT change history.  If someone died during a plague, and then didn't due to a time traveler - who knows what repercussions that would have on history?  So the conflict between that professional detachment and our legends is exactly what I expect from a show with time travel.  

In the final analysis, everyone on the team is changing for the better and I've enjoyed their journeys.  Well, except for the Hawks.  Maybe that's why they don't work.  I think I liked Kendra better when she was a barista.  

[jhlipton]

11 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

But that's the weird part -- that nudie pen should have been nearly 4000 years old by the time VS showed it to Rip.  It should have turned to dust long ago.

Yep, the whole thing was tres bizarre!

[kismet]

12 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

But that's the weird part -- that nudie pen should have been nearly 4000 years old by the time VS showed it to Rip.  It should have turned to dust long ago.

Perhaps the pen has magical properties and is the key to his survival. Just like the Hawks have magical objects to kill. VS has magical objects to live :)

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

Perhaps the pen has magical properties and is the key to his survival. Just like the Hawks have magical objects to kill. VS has magical objects to live :)

The nudie-pen of Cairo.  The emerald bong of the 60s.  The Jello Salad of the 50s.

[KirkB]

It's been confirmed that Savage is a time traveler now too, so maybe he brought the pen with him outside of time, instead of it sitting around in his pocket for 4000 years.

At this point, I'm not sure I see how killing Savage is actually going to fix anything. Going back a couple of thousand years and killing him before he has a chance to do much, yes, might save the world. But now we find out Savage has a huge army of people and equipment in place, many of which have been instrumental in his domination. He is the head of an organization. Killing Savage doesn't automatically dismantle all of the people or things he has stretched out across the world. His people will still be in control of what's left of the populace. From what I can see the best possible scenario available to them now would be to let Cassandra take over as a more benevolent dictator.

[MarkHB]

5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

The nudie-pen of Cairo.  The emerald bong of the 60s.  The Jello Salad of the 50s.

Now I want to know if the model in the nudie pen is covered by a purple rose when you flip it over.

[jhlipton]

30 minutes ago, KirkB said:

IAt this point, I'm not sure I see how killing Savage is actually going to fix anything. Going back a couple of thousand years and killing him before he has a chance to do much, yes, might save the world.

Rip can't go back to ancient Egypt because PLOT!!!, but there's nothing keeping any of the others, including the Hawks, from going back to just after their death and killing him there.  Other than, ya know, PLOT!!!

[Sakura12]

I really wish they didn't tie the Hawks to Savage. Besides making them useless for 4000 years and not finding better actors it's hurting the show. They could've easily just made Savage an immortal caveman that is hard to kill. The team could've tried to fight Savage but his followers protected him, allowing him to escape or they could've thought Savage was in a time period but it turns out to be one of his many followers that they then have to stop. They could've made Savage more of the man behind the curtain, making him harder to find. 

The Hawks could still be Egyptian Warrior Hawks or whatever they are and reincarnate but their deaths were tied to them being heroes or just dying of old age. They could still do the memory thing and them having to find each other thing. They just needed to made the useful, besides just being the only ones that can strike the killing blow. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Sakura12

[squidprincess]

6 hours ago, KirkB said:

It's been confirmed that Savage is a time traveler now too, so maybe he brought the pen with him outside of time, instead of it sitting around in his pocket for 4000 years.

At this point, I'm not sure I see how killing Savage is actually going to fix anything. Going back a couple of thousand years and killing him before he has a chance to do much, yes, might save the world. But now we find out Savage has a huge army of people and equipment in place, many of which have been instrumental in his domination. He is the head of an organization. Killing Savage doesn't automatically dismantle all of the people or things he has stretched out across the world. His people will still be in control of what's left of the populace. From what I can see the best possible scenario available to them now would be to let Cassandra take over as a more benevolent dictator.

To be fair, even if Savage's system's in place, and a successor takes over, that successor won't be immortal.  They can still be killed, overthrown, or even die of old age.  Fifty years of a dictator's reign is better than forever.

5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Rip can't go back to ancient Egypt because PLOT!!!, but there's nothing keeping any of the others, including the Hawks, from going back to just after their death and killing him there.  Other than, ya know, PLOT!!!

Doesn't the show imply that the physical time effects are worse the farther back you go?  Do we know whether or not the other Legends would even survive the trip?

13 hours ago, kismet said:

Perhaps the pen has magical properties and is the key to his survival. Just like the Hawks have magical objects to kill. VS has magical objects to live :)

It does occur to me that Rip tried to kill Savage before the Hawk murders made him immortal, right?  So depending on when he escaped, Savage could have had that pen on the night he became immortal.  

I'm not going to lie: if Kendra Saunders kills Vandal Savage with Rip Hunter's nudie pen, this will become my favorite show ever.

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, squidprincess said:

1) Doesn't the show imply that the physical time effects are worse the farther back you go?  Do we know whether or not the other Legends would even survive the trip?

I'm not going to lie: if Kendra Saunders kills Vandal Savage with Rip Hunter's nudie pen, this will become my favorite show ever.

 

Consistency of plot???  On this show?????  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!  I'm sorry, were you serious?  I didn't notice any deleterious effects when they traveled 150 years (or so, starting from 2016 -- it would be even more from Rip's starting point).  Everyone seemed to be as healthy as when they went to 1950 or 1960.  So how far back do you have to go before the "time effects" kick in?

OMG -- mine too!!!

[squidprincess]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

 

Consistency of plot???  On this show?????  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!  I'm sorry, were you serious?  I didn't notice any deleterious effects when they traveled 150 years (or so, starting from 2016 -- it would be even more from Rip's starting point).  Everyone seemed to be as healthy as when they went to 1950 or 1960.  So how far back do you have to go before the "time effects" kick in?

OMG -- mine too!!!

We saw temporary effects when they went back to 1975 and 1952, IIRC.  And 1871 hit hard enough that even Rip was affected.  I don't remember if we saw the same effects when they jumped forward, but we've definitely seen them on the jumps backward.  There was also some bit in one of the really early episodes where they proposed Kendra go backward, Rip starts to protest and Snart cuts him off with "and it would kill her.  I pay attention."

The show seems to pull time travel rules out of its rear end for any given episode, but I think they've been pretty consistent about that one.  (Well, unless you think too hard about how Rip got back to ancient Egypt.  :-))

Edited May 10, 2016 by squidprincess

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, squidprincess said:

We saw temporary effects when they went back to 1975 and 1952, IIRC.  And 1871 hit hard enough that even Rip was affected.

I'm confused (a not unusual state of affairs!) -- how were they affected, in any way that kept them from doing whatever they wanted?  It's quite probable I missed or forgot something, but they were in 1871 for at least a day, and Rip could still out-shoot the bad guy. And they were in 1952 for 3 years!

As far as Kendra going back, she didn't seem to be ailing in any way when she met the Old West version of herself. 

I am seeking enlightenment!

[Lady Calypso]

28 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I'm confused (a not unusual state of affairs!) -- how were they affected, in any way that kept them from doing whatever they wanted?  It's quite probable I missed or forgot something, but they were in 1871 for at least a day, and Rip could still out-shoot the bad guy. And they were in 1952 for 3 years!

As far as Kendra going back, she didn't seem to be ailing in any way when she met the Old West version of herself. 

I am seeking enlightenment!

Honestly, I'm about 90% positive that they used this not only as a form of comedy (like "Oh look, Jax can't stand properly and Stein is speaking gibberish! How hilarious!")  but also as an excuse for Rip not to drag the entire team back to Kendra and Carter's first life and murder the shit out of Savage before the meteor. So it's not a necessarily serious plot point, but more as a way to explain why they can't hop back way back when to kill Savage. The physical comedy that can happen for one scene per episode is just an added bonus for them.

[Potanical Pardon]

Is it too late to retcon that Rip Hunter isn't the real Rip Hunter? I kind of like the character, but his idiocy does not do the fictional character justice at all. And I am so done with the Hawks. Vandal Savage too. Everyone else can stay. I'm pretty certain that they'll all stop being stupid once Kendra is gone. I have no idea why no one thought to bash Savage's head in once Carter awoke and especially after he died again! Why even bother going to Vanishing Point? Be done with it and hit him with the mace!

[jhlipton]

9 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, I'm about 90% positive that they used this not only as a form of comedy (like "Oh look, Jax can't stand properly and Stein is speaking gibberish! How hilarious!")  but also as an excuse for Rip not to drag the entire team back to Kendra and Carter's first life and murder the shit out of Savage before the meteor. So it's not a necessarily serious plot point, but more as a way to explain why they can't hop back way back when to kill Savage. The physical comedy that can happen for one scene per episode is just an added bonus for them.

I think you're right.  They could just pop Kendra into the Sick Bay during the jump and have Gabriel fix whatever (small) problems occur.

[KirkB]

Oh I definitely think it's a little from column A and a little from column B. They get to have their humorous physical comedy (falling over, temporary blindness, etc) and an excuse for not doing the sensible thing and going back to kill Savage before he became unstoppable. But they're also contradicting themselves by saying the further back you go the worse it is, so even Rip was affected by going to the old west, and yet Rip somehow DID manage to go all the way back to ancient Egypt.