S06.E02: Home

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

 

But it wouldn't be within Bran's lifetime if he attempted Warg him in the past, which was what Dev F suggested.  It would be within Hodor's lifetime, but not Bran's since Bran can essentially time travel.  I don't know if he can time-warg though. 

Bran can time travel now that he's been born.  I don't know that means he has had the ability to time travel and/or warg before Bran existed.

We do know that there are some people who have some magical abilities when it comes to living many, many years, Old Nan being one of them, and Hodor is thought to be related to her, so he may in fact be quite old himself.

I thought Jon's cleaned wounds were left looking like he had a torso full of leeches, intentionally harking back to some of Melisandre's earlier magic.

[cryptaknight]

5 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

This a thousand times. Ramsay is a sociopath, and I do get that people may be afraid of him, but let's be honest, half of his power comes from the fact he is Bolton's bastard/first born. If Papa Bolton is dead, who cares? Just kill the little psycho and move on to another leadership in the North. No way Ramsay's minions wouldn't be willing to change sides, the thing with people like Ramsay is that they don't care about loyalty and will fuck anyone in their path, allies or not. This said, I think Ramsay was STOOPID. He could have killed his father and Walda, and kept the baby, being some sort of legal guardian or whatever and ruling until he found Sansa, or until something changed and he could be the "legal" king of the North.

Cool, I don't disagree. I am sure Ramsay's got another thing coming to him, and soon, I hope. Once he gets to the Wall at the very latest, but hopefully sooner.

The post I was replying to, however, alleged that Ramsay was only Lord Bolton because Roose said to him, "You'll always be my firstborn" in Karstark's presence. I'm sure most of the North knows he was legitimized and thus inherits the title. Whether they actually care is what remains to be seen. They've overthrown Lords before. But none of that means that Ramsay wouldn't be acknowledged as Lord Bolton for the time being.

[Statman]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

That was reaaaally clunky. Sansa knows the hound, Brienne knows the hound and Brienne knows that Sansa knows the hound. Why would she say "a man"? Maybe she didn't want to worry Sansa. But it seems kinda far fetched.

How does Brienne know that Sansa knows the Hound?  The Hound disappeared after the Battle of the Blackwater and Brienne was no where near King's Landing when that battle occurred (she at that time serving Catelyn in the Riverlands). 

Neither the books or the show has ever provided a single piece of evidence that Brienne knows that Sansa knows the Hound. 

[polyhymnia]

I am not saying Ramsay is more cartoony in the series v. books although I will say it is less subtle (sausage eating, for example) but it was nice to have a more even-keeled, calculating bad guy (Roose) around and Ramsay is boring because he is over the top.  They did a better job with Joffry.  The excesses he got away with always seems to fit because he was the king and he was protected by his at the time powerful family and powerful grandfather.  I can believe that the south didn't know much about Ramsay but not that the other Northern lords haven't heard about him being relatively batshit and I cannot see them being interested in following Roose's bastard, no matter how many kings legitimized him.  I can more see the Karstarks deciding to put one of their own in Winterfell.  Ramsay just doesn't inspire loyal followers as presented in the series (or in the books).

[Dev F]

13 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Bran can time travel now that he's been born.  I don't know that means he has had the ability to time travel and/or warg before Bran existed.

I'm not sure I understand. He has the ability to travel through time now, hence he has the ability to travel to a time before he was born -- as we saw in this very episode.

My suggestion is that whatever actions Bran may perform in the future to influence the past, those actions are already reflected in the past as we've seen it previously. (The "history is immutable" theory of time travel.) Hence, if Bran will some day warg into young Willas and warp his mind, those actions are already a part of Hodor's past.

[Alapaki]

I don't think Theon was afraid of going North because he was afraid of dying.  1) last week he was willing to sacrifice himself to lead Ramsey's hunters off of Sansa's trail; 2) after all he's been through, death wouldn't seem so bad at this point; 3) he's got to know that he only stands a 50-50 chance of Balon letting him live after the way he fucked up the invasion; and thus 4) if he's interested in remaining alive, taking-the-black would seem like the most viable (no pun intended) option.

Rather, I think Theon was legitimately ashamed to face Jon after what he'd done.  He's got to believe that he single-handedly brought down the House of Stark (which had stood since before the time of the First Men) and threw the entire North into chaos under the rule of a psychopath, all just to try to get an "attaboy" from his pops.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Alapaki

[Avaleigh]

18 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I wasn't worried about soundly-sleeping Ghost. My theory last week was (maybe still is) that Shireen's death paid for Jon's life. I guess we'll see.

I'm still worried about Ghost in the long run. I'm on the fence as to whether or not Lightbringer needs to be reforged but lean towards that being the case. There's just something lame to me about Jon conveniently already having a magical sword in his possession especially when I suspect that he's going to have a pet dragon in his future. I think it will need to be made and that Ghost will likely be the sacrifice only it won't work. My guess right now is that Ghost will be the equivalent of the lion in the Azor Ahai story and that Dany will turn out to be the Nissa Nissa. Again, assuming that Lightbringer needs to be be made and that Jon doesn't just conveniently already have it because he's a special snowflake. 

The reason I'm not convinced that Shireen's death paid for Jon's life is because it doesn't seem like that was necessary with Thoros and Beric. I also feel like the delay in the timing is suspect. With Dany using Mirri Maz Duur's life in addition to Drogo's blood, that made sense to me because it was all happening at the same time in the same place and felt very deliberate even if Dany didn't understand why she instinctively knew what to do. 

With Shireen's death, she isn't anywhere near Jon, it happens days before, and it just carries over even though Mel was trying for something totally different?  

Shireen's death is horribly tragic, wrong, and sucks either way but the idea that Shireen's death paid for Jon's life makes it seem like it was somehow 'necessary' in the grand scheme of things and I guess I just don't like the idea that Melisandre was 'right' that Shireen needed to die for the greater good. I think it's stronger and even more chilling than it already is if it turns out that there is no 'upside' to Shireen's death. I don't want Mel let off of the hook for burning a child alive because of the idea that she's selflessly trying to save the universe.

[SeanC]

39 minutes ago, Statman said:

How does Brienne know that Sansa knows the Hound?  The Hound disappeared after the Battle of the Blackwater and Brienne was no where near King's Landing when that battle occurred (she at that time serving Catelyn in the Riverlands). 

Neither the books or the show has ever provided a single piece of evidence that Brienne knows that Sansa knows the Hound. 

The Hound was Joffrey's personal guard when Sansa was in KL.  Now, Brienne has no idea they had any greater interaction than that, but she'd know Sansa knows who he is.

[Alapaki]

I'm surprised that they didn't "previously" the scene on Dragonstone with the leeches where Stannis and Melisandre cursed Robb, Joffrey and Balon.  Because this week we saw the final fulfillment of that curse.  Maybe Melisandre can only work her mojo once-at-a-time and Balon's death gave her a "reset" that allowed her to work it again?

[IntrovertGal]

Thank the Old Gods and the New! I finally managed to watch the episode and I'm so bloody relieved and happy right now. As a book reader, I never really doubted that Jon Snow would come back but all this denial from Kit, the other actors, HBO, etc. was starting to make me nervous and I'm so glad that they didn't drag it out even more. Now I would have preferred for Jon to resurrect himself and rise from his funeral pyre than for Melisandre to do it, but what the hell I'm just so pleased to have one of my favourite characters back. I loved how that whole scene was set up too, with everyone leaving the room thinking Melisandre's ritual had failed, only Ghost remaining by Jon's side. And then when Ghost lifted his head, I was on the edge of my seat and when Jon opened his eyes, I was cheering. I cannot wait to see Melisandre, Davos, Tormund and the other Wildlings' reactions. Oh and Thorne and Olly's. Btw that's one complaint I have about this episode: I really wish Wun Wun or the other Wildlings had killed Thorne and/or that little shit Olly. But maybe it will be worth it having them still be alive when they learn that Jon came back from the dead.

How lucky was Carice van Houten for filming all those scenes where she had to touch naked Kit? I wouldn't have minded having that particular job. ;)

While Jon's resurrection was the main thing for me in this week's episode, I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the episode as well. Well maybe not the Ramsay feeding Walda and the baby to his hounds, because that was gruesome and I had to look away. I have an irrational fear of dogs so Walda's fate was pretty much my worst nightmare so thanks for that, writers.

But I loved the flashback with Ned, Benjen and Lyanna and Wylis/Hodor and I cannot wait to see more of Bran's visions. I cannot believe that his storyline finally got interesting, I used to be so bored by his scenes.

Now Tyrion the dragontamer was interesting as well and it certainly feeds those whole Tyrion Targaryen theories. I agree with those of you that said that Peter Dinklage was great in that scene. When Tyrion talked about wanting a book about dragons for his nameday and being told that dragons were extinct and crying himself to sleep, that was a really powerful performance. I could really do without all those eunuch jokes though, they are just not funny.

I keep loving the Sansa and Theon scenes so I'm sad that Theon splits from Sansa already. I understand that he wants to go home although considering what just happened on Pyke, Theon's timing may not be all that great. I was not a huge fan of the Iron Islands storyline in the books but I gotta admit I did love meeting Euron and seeing Yara again. Glad Balon is gone now, good riddance. The Kingsmoot should be interesting, if D&D do not screw it up.

I'm also very glad that Sansa learned from Brienne that Arya is still alive and her fond little smile when she heard that Arya is still a tomboy warmed my heart. When Sansa couldn't talk about her rape at Winterfell and Brienne seemed to understand anyway, that was also very well done by both actresses.

Oh man, I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff but right now the only thought in my head is JON SNOW IS ALIVE!!! So I will keep celebrating that for the rest of the night.

Edited May 2, 2016 by IntrovertGal
Spelling

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

Including that Manderley was not actually concerned with making sure there was a male heir for the Starks, but rather that he had to conceal his allegiance to the Starks from the Boltons and Freys while Manderley's own heir was being held hostage in King's Landing.  So he pretended in front of Davos and faked executing him for the rest of the Kingdom, so he could send Davos after Rickon.  Manderley knew Rickon was alive. 

After he got his own heir back, he rolled forth towards Winterfell and apparently killed, cooked and then ate a couple of Freys and wasn't doing much to conceal his "I'm not on your side" status while at Winterfell (and was in fact, attacked in one of the last scenes there) ....because his heir was safe and he could die with impunity, which he pretty clearly intended to do.  

I know this, because I fucking love Lord Manderley.  His my spirit character (of some not insubstantial size, but I'm down with that if it will take out a Bolton are ten).

Exactly. Manderly played the Game until his surviving son was released.  The other died at the Red Wedding so he had no love for Freys or Boltons or Lannisters. This is why I'll be so pissed if the show has him a supporter of Ramsay. I reeeeally hope all the Northern lords suddenly change sides (and support Sansa, Jon, whoever) in the war that will come. Otherwise what's the point of restoring a Stark (any Stark) to Winterfell if all the subordinate lords are traitors?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Haleth

[lmsweb]

1 hour ago, Statman said:

How does Brienne know that Sansa knows the Hound?  The Hound disappeared after the Battle of the Blackwater and Brienne was no where near King's Landing when that battle occurred (she at that time serving Catelyn in the Riverlands). 

Neither the books or the show has ever provided a single piece of evidence that Brienne knows that Sansa knows the Hound. 

Because Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey, and The Hound was Joffrey's pet dog. I refuse to believe that Brienne, who was one of Renly's KG, wouldn't know enough about the Lannisters and King's Landing to not know that the Hound served them. Plus, she's been travelling with Pod for some time now. There's no way she supposedly killed one of the best fighters in the realm and then the subject never came up with Pod again. (I'm talking in the context of the show, not the books)

[stillshimpy]

Quote

Ramsey definitely cartoon evil in the books but his worst acts are always off-screen. GRRM knew he didn't have to show every moment of torture of Theon for it to hit the audience. And there's a pretty significant difference between how GRRM writes him and how D&D write him. Ramsay's a pretty minor character in the books, although a big reason that him is being off-screen for ASoS and AFFC, but even then only shows up as a supporting character in Theon's chapters. I think GRRM knew there's only so many times you could hit the same beats with that character before it just becomes repetitive and boring. D&D seem to revel in his sadism.

 

I agree.  If anything Ramsay in the books is more purely unadulterated evil than show Ramsay is, but in the books, Martin isn't confusing him with a POV character in the way the series does.  Ramsay is always seen through the eyes of others and the legend of the terrible shit he has done also exists in the world where there's a gigantic game of telephone going on.   Where Robb Stark could be said to have turned into a wolf and people will repeat that as gospel.  

Except with Ramsay, the horrible stuff is true and Martin respects that something that happens offscreen can be fare more frightening than something that happens as the central action. 

The series has tried to make us care about his internal life:  most don't and I am with Clan "Don't care, get off my screen, you're sickening".   Nothing Ramsay does is surprising.  As soon as he sent for Lady Walda it was obvious "Oh great, he's going to murder a helpless woman who just gave birth.  She's going to have to rise up from that bed, get dressed and that fucker is going to kill her and a tiny, tiny baby."  

As if that wasn't horrible enough, the show had to set the scene forever and have poor Walda just stand there like a turkey in the rain, complete with following him into the damned dog kennel.  She lives at Winterfell.  She knows of Ramsay.  I get that she's not supposed to be a mental giant, but good lord, that was some simple math that she didn't do, solely to make the scene more horrifying.  When you have enough warning to say, "Oh great, he's going to feed them to the dogs?" and the setup is so long that I personally had time to get up, turn my  back on the screen: pause to refill my wineglass and go into the dining room to look out the window onto the street....while observing the guy across the street walking underneath the  street lamp and idly wondering "I wonder who that is?  Is that Brooks? No, it's not Brooks."  all before it goes down?  

Long set up.  Also how awful is Ramsay that my internal reaction was not "Aaaaiaiaiaiaaaeeeeeee! Blerg!  Urgle! Retch!"  but instead "Well, I don't want to see this, so I'll exit stage that-a-way at my extended leisure."  

Ramsay is boring because he's lost his shock value and he's well into simple gross-out territory.  He's like that boy who liked you in middle-school and would open up his mouth to exhibit "see...food!"  as a way of getting attention.  After a while you know not to sit at his fucking lunch table and you just want to get away from him.  

 

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Because Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey, and The Hound was Joffrey's pet dog. I refuse to believe that Brienne, who was one of Renly's KG, wouldn't know enough about the Lannisters and King's Landing to not know that the Hound served them. Plus, she's been travelling with Pod for some time now. There's no way she supposedly killed one of the best fighters in the realm and then the subject never came up with Pod again. (I'm talking in the context of the show, not the books)

 

But Pod doesn't even know that the Hound and Sansa had any interactions.  Sure, The Hound was Joffrey's servant/enforcer/creature. Clearly Brienne would know that was The Hound from his facial scarring.  She just has no reason, at all, to think that would have a great deal of meaning to Sansa.  

You're expecting Brienne and Pod to be privy to things we, as the audience, know about Sansa and The Hound.  

The simplest answer is Brienne doesn't name him, because what would be the point?  She killed him (to the best of her knowledge) and telling Sansa "Oh yeah, she was hanging out with The Hound, wouldn't leave him" doesn't actually comfort Sansa from everything Brienne knows.  

I agree with you, there's no way that Pod and Brienne could fail to understand who Arya was with.  It's just neither would think that had any kind of context for Sansa that wasn't terrifying and Brienne knows that she kicked his ass and set him rolling down a hill to his eventual doom, so why would she add that detail? 

For color commentary?   

ETA:  

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First of all, it was me!!! Hi there.

 

Hi, kittykat :-) Thanks for understanding. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Helena Dax]

Ramsay couldn't have made a bigger mistake. Just after losing his Stark wife, he kills his dad: how many followers is he going to lose? Roose was the man most of them respected. And yes, I don't see Walder Frey going to war against the Boltons for Wanda, but I don't see him helping Ramsay anymore, either. I'd be surprised if he isn't dead before the season ends. 

Loved Sansa's smile when Brienne told her about Arya. You know, I don't really care about who sits on the Iron Throne at the end of the story, as long as it is one of the good guys: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Davos, a motherless Tommen... They can even turn Westeros into a republic, if that's what they want. But I need to see the Stark kids together again. I need to see hugs and tears and happy smiles. 

Hi, Jon! I can't wait to see Thorne's face, I really can't. 

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

I'm surprised that they didn't "previously" the scene on Dragonstone with the leeches where Stannis and Melisandre cursed Robb, Joffrey and Balon.  Because this week we saw the final fulfillment of that curse.  Maybe Melisandre can only work her mojo once-at-a-time and Balon's death gave her a "reset" that allowed her to work it again?

I thought about that too but I'm sort of glad that we didn't get another reminder of just how ridiculous the decision was from Stannis's perspective to burn Shireen. There absolutely should have been some dialogue where he expressed doubt in her abilities since Balon was still alive. 

I did get a kick out of Balon acknowledging that he's the only survivor of the war of the five kings but it didn't really feel like a pay off because there's been no acknowledgement on the show from other characters that Melisandre has done anything wrong. Even Davos never mentioned to Melisandre that Balon is still alive.

[Alapaki]

27 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

Ramsay couldn't have made a bigger mistake. Just after losing his Stark wife, he kills his dad: how many followers is he going to lose? Roose was the man most of them respected. And yes, I don't see Walder Frey going to war against the Boltons for Wanda, but I don't see him helping Ramsay anymore, either. I'd be surprised if he isn't dead before the season ends. 

Loved Sansa's smile when Brienne told her about Arya. You know, I don't really care about who sits on the Iron Throne at the end of the story, as long as it is one of the good guys: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Davos, a motherless Tommen... They can even turn Westeros into a republic, if that's what they want. But I need to see the Stark kids together again. I need to see hugs and tears and happy smiles. 

Hi, Jon! I can't wait to see Thorne's face, I really can't. 

Agree re: Walder.  Also, though, Walder could've made it a hell of a lot harder for a Southern army to march north.  Now I'm guessing he'd pretty much roll out the red carpet for them.

Not sure how much Roose was respected vs. feared.  In that sense, fear can keep Ramsey in power for a bit.  The difference, imo, is that Roose was rationale.  Ramsey is too volatile. That'll lead the Houses under him to revolt

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

But Pod doesn't even know that the Hound and Sansa had any interactions.  Sure, The Hound was Joffrey's servant/enforcer/creature. Clearly Brienne would know that was The Hound from his facial scarring.  She just has no reason, at all, to think that would have a great deal of meaning to Sansa.  

You're expecting Brienne and Pod to be privy to things we, as the audience, know about Sansa and The Hound. 

 

Pod would know that Sansa was aware of the Hound, and would share the info with Brienne if for no other reason, court gossip.

I went back and re-watched the fight scene in 4x10, The Children. Brienne had no idea she was talking to Arya, until Pod identified Sandor Clegane, and that's what set the light bulb off in Bri's head, "you're Arya Stark!" Why on earth would she associate Arya with the Hound, but not imagine Sansa would know who he is?

Quote

I agree with you, there's no way that Pod and Brienne could fail to understand who Arya was with.  It's just neither would think that had any kind of context for Sansa that wasn't terrifying and Brienne knows that she kicked his ass and set him rolling down a hill to his eventual doom, so why would she add that detail? 

Brienne is newly in Sansa's service, and already keeping secrets? Not good.

Whatever reason D & D left it out, it's clumsy and it takes viewers out of the story.

Edited May 3, 2016 by FemmyV

[Eyes High]

On 2 May 2016 at 10:04 PM, loki567 said:

Ramsey definitely cartoon evil in the books but his worst acts are always off-screen. GRRM knew he didn't have to show every moment of torture of Theon for it to hit the audience. And there's a pretty significant difference between how GRRM writes him and how D&D write him. Ramsay's a pretty minor character in the books, although a big reason that him is being off-screen for ASoS and AFFC, but even then only shows up as a supporting character in Theon's chapters. I think GRRM knew there's only so many times you could hit the same beats with that character before it just becomes repetitive and boring. D&D seem to revel in his sadism.

"D&D seem to revel in his sadism," but GRRM doesn't? Pop quiz: who implied that Ramsay forces his wife to fuck dogs? Because it wasn't D&D.

As for GRRM being better because he doesn't show the violence ("cutting away" just as Theon starts to perform oral sex on Jeyne, e.g.), GRRM doesn't get a cookie for leaving gruesomely sadistic, gory, and hideously sexually violent acts "off screen" but not outright depicting them: a mother's belly getting chewed through at Saltpans, an imprisoned wife devouring her own fingers, another imprisoned wife implying that her husband is forcing her to have sex with dogs, a woman getting raped on a table at a feast, etc. If anything, GRRM is far more shlocky and exploitative when it comes to outrageous gore and sexual violence than D&D ever have been (or ever will be), but for some reason certain book fans want to give him a pass because he only implies the worst stuff or hints at it taking place "off-screen". 

Edited May 6, 2016 by SilverStormm
Bordering on not being civil.

[Alayne Stone]

Shimpy, very insightful thoughts as alwas. Especially loved your comment on the fact that GRRM doesn't confuse the fact that Ramsay is not a POV unlike the show creators. I truly do not understand their fascination with him. He has had a lot of screen time already in two episodes. Two scenes each episode. I don't even think Cersei has had that much. And it doesn't look like we'll be seeing less of him any time soon because now they have the assault on castle black/jon snow/wherever it will be to gear up for.

I just read an article that made me rage a little talking about the show's  "Epidemic of Kid Killing" as it is so titled in the article by the Atlantic. You'd think that by the title there would be some criticism to be had, but no, it was more unadulterated praise and the fact that kid killing is often used in conjunction with the theme of killing childhood (lol like this show knows what themes are ... well it did, at one point ... I'd say the death of childhood is very prevelant in the earlier seasons).

That scene with Ramsay was not meant to drive home the fact that this world sees a lot of kids growing up way too fast. Obviously. Because baby Bolton is dead now.

And I also agree, it is not the least bit shocking anymore. You knew exactly what he was going to do before he even took her to the kennels. And I actually kind of like show Walda, yet I didn't feel an iota of pity for her. Just annoyance that the scene was dragging on for as long as it did.

As for Brienne just citing "some guy" ... it still felt odd to me. And maybe I'm projecting my book knowledge (and by maybe, I fully own up to the fact that I am 100% projecting my book knowledge) ... but The Hound was kind of a big deal in the books. A big enough deal that even after he "died" people were still going around with his helmet, pretending to be him, convincing the rest of the realm that he was still alive and hell bent on terrorizing the riverlands. "The Hound" almost became an urban legend to scare little children into behaving.
So it was just ... weird. And it felt deliberate, because you had to know Sansa would have had a million and one questions as to why the hell her sister was with the Hound.

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Alayne Stone]

Oh ... oh ... OH. Can I just say one last thing that actually makes me kind of laugh out loud?

The fact that this show seems to think it is completely believable for two different Bastards to not only murder their liege lord but to actually set it up so that PEOPLE WILL PRESUMABLY FOLLOW THEM. First Ellaria in Dorne and then Ramsay up in the North. What Lord in his right mind is going to get behind an unstable psychopath and kinslayer? There's literally nothing to suggest they can be trusted or relied upon and that's not taking into account ambitious Lords who might presumably have a claim or an eye on ruling the dominion themselves. I just don't get it. At all.

[GrailKing]

Pod, Brienne and everyone else knows about Sandor, what they don't know is how Sandor has protected BOTH girls,Sasna at KL where he has a rep as Joffry's dog and as far as anyone knows KG to Joffery and Cersi's lap dog, only Tyrion knows he saved Sansa from the rapist and a few knows he covered her up when Tyrion stopped Trant's beating her; as far as the arrest of Ned Stark, his sword was drawn ready to protect the King and no one knows except Sansa that he offered to take her out of KL.

He leaves KL and his reputation is of a deserter or mad dog going on a killing spree and kidnapping a girl and wanting to sell her for ransom, neither Hotpie or Gendry or anyone else; including Pod or Brienne knows he was actually protecting her, when they meet, Brienne doesn't know who he is, but Pod does and they both think he's kidnapping her, they don't realize he's protecting her and they come off as Lannister agents and neither the Hound or Arya trust them; so even though Brienne knows it's the Hound she doesn't really know why they stayed together in her mind Sandor is a killer and if she tells Sansa she may feel it be an unnecessary worry for her, hence the some man was with her.

I was thinking why since Sunday and this is my conclusion for it.

It's Arya's  version of the devil you know versus the ones you don't, she just leaves him to die, where sis may out right kill her devil LOL.

Edited May 3, 2016 by GrailKing
spelling add deserter and devil you know

[AshleyN]

53 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Pod would know that Sansa was aware of the Hound, and would share the info with Brienne if for no other reason, court gossip.

I went back and re-watched the fight scene in 4x10, The Children. Brienne had no idea she was talking to Arya, until Pod identified Sandor Clegane, and that's what set the light bulb off in Bri's head, "you're Arya Stark!" Why on earth would she associate Arya with the Hound, but not Sansa?

 

Whatever reason D & D left it out, it's clumsy and it takes viewers out of the story.

IIRC, she had been informed by someone (Hot Pie?) that Arya was last seen travelling with the Hound.

Most of what I have to say about this episode has already been said, but I have to point out that I laughed at Roose's appalled reaction to Ramsay's plan of killing the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Look Ser Alliser, freaking Roose Bolton thinks that what you did is going too far (granted, he was thinking more about the PR problems it would cause, but still).

Jon Snow was just about the prettiest corpse I've ever seen. Lol at the reverse Samson though. And yes, his revival was so predictable that it barely even qualifies as a "twist", but I think they executed it about as well as they could have. Loved the touch of everyone giving up and leaving except for Ghost.

I really don't care for the Ironborn stuff in the books, but I actually liked those scenes tonight. It probably helps that we lost Victarion (my least favourite character in the entire series). And I like Yara remains the sensible person amongst the Ironborn, and even included her line about the pinecones and the futility of Balon's war.

Finally, as much as I liked this episode, and as great as that ending was, the preview was probably the most exciting part for me. I actually squealed a little bit when I saw that we're going to get that scene next week.

Edited May 3, 2016 by AshleyN

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Even if all of the books were complete and published, no adaptation could possibly be 100-percent faithful, including every location, character and happening.  Simply not possible to be done, financially or otherwise.

 

Frankly?  Thank God for that!  I kind of wish GRRM had just told his story, and then published a new (old) series about all the background stuff, days of old.  He so needed a very strong editor.  I'd love to read all the rest  but in a different book or set of books, my eyes glaze over with the massive numbers of characters who, one of whom might have had two sentences in book one, but by book 4 suddenly becomes someone I have to remember because he is back on stage.

Anyway, can someone do me a favor and remind me where we left off with Theon/Reek in the books?  Wasn't he recaptured, and blah blah blah?  I'll check Westeros if no one volunteers it, but I'm not sure if they've now updated with show-canon since we've obviously moved past the books.

I also wonder if GRRM is guiding D & D anymore, or if he's mostly just pissed that they've left him behind, and keeping the important details to himself for his books.  I know HBO wisely secured the end-game before they paid GRRM, but I really wonder if they are dealing or not dealing with characters like the Hound simply because they have no clue where that story goes? 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Umbelina

[nksarmi]

3 minutes ago, Alayne Stone said:

Oh ... oh ... OH. Can I just say one last thing that actually makes me kind of laugh out loud?

The fact that this show seems to think it is completely believable for two different Bastards to not only murder their liege lord but to actually set it up so that PEOPLE WILL PRESUMABLY FOLLOW THEM. First Ellaria in Dorne and then Ramsay up in the North. What Lord in his right mind is going to get behind an unstable psychopath and kinslayer? There's literally nothing to suggest they can be trusted or relied upon and that's not taking into account ambitious Lords who might presumably have a claim or an eye on ruling the dominion themselves. I just don't get it. At all.

The only thing that might save this in the Northern story will be if people either switch sides or show only the weakest amounts of loyalty before they find someone better to support. But Dorne is definitely a WTF?

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Frankly?  Thank God for that!  I kind of wish GRRM had just told his story, and then published a new (old) series about all the background stuff, days of old.  He so needed a very strong editor.  I'd love to read all the rest  but in a different book or set of books, my eyes glaze over with the massive numbers of characters who, one of whom might have had two sentences in book one, but by book 4 suddenly becomes someone I have to remember because he is back on stage.

Anyway, can someone do me a favor and remind me where we left off with Theon/Reek in the books?  Wasn't he recaptured, and blah blah blah?  I'll check Westeros if no one volunteers it, but I'm not sure if they've now updated with show-canon since we've obviously moved past the books.

I also wonder if GRRM is guiding D & D anymore, or if he's mostly just pissed that they've left him behind, and keeping the important details to himself for his books.  I know HBO wisely secured the end-game before they paid GRRM, but I really wonder if they are dealing or not dealing with characters like the Hound simply because they have no clue where that story goes? 

Captured by Stannis he also let Stannis know about

the Karstark's treachery

Edited May 3, 2016 by GrailKing

[FemmyV]

On second/third viewing, I do enjoy the similarities and differences of scenes where Tyrion goes to feed and unchain the dragons, and Walda goes to Ramsey's dogs. Tyrion goes to feed vicious, untamed beasts, knowing he may not come out alive. Walda follows Ramsey to man's best friend, otoh, and walks into that ...

Edited May 3, 2016 by FemmyV

[Alayne Stone]

11 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

The only thing that might save this in the Northern story will be if people either switch sides or show only the weakest amounts of loyalty before they find someone better to support. But Dorne is definitely a WTF?

I don't have very high hopes but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

And I like to just pretend Show Dorne doesn't exist. :D

[stillshimpy]

Quote

Pod, Brienne and everyone else knows about Sandor, what they don't know is how Sandor has protected BOTH girls,Sasna at KL where he has a rep as Joffry's dog and as far as anyone knows KG to Joffery and Cersi's lap dog, only Tyrion knows he saved Sansa from the rapist and a few knows he covered her up when Tyrion stoped Trant's beating her; as far as the arrest of Ned Stark, his sword was drawn ready to protect the King and no one knows except Sansa that he offered to take her out of KL.

 

Precisely.  There's no reason for Pod and Brienne to sit down and confer about what Brienne will tell Sansa about Arya beforehand, for starters.  But for another it's not "keeping secrets"  -- Dude's dead as far as Brienne knows -- but you know in the books how Bran doesn't actually know the hideous fucking specifics of how his grandfather and uncle died, because what would be the fucking point of adding in those details?  Catelyn also didn't know the details of how he died in the books, because they were too horrible to burden someone who loved him with that.  That's why Brienne might hold back that information.  And before you cite the "in her service" ...you mean the poor shattered woman who couldn't even remember the words to take her into her service?  That girl?  Yeah, give her the unvarnished truth?  I disagree that telling her that truth would have a thing to do with honor. 

Without knowing that Sansa has an positive context for The Hound, here's what telling Sansa Arya was with the Hound boils down to:  "Hey, you know that guy that murdered Elia Martell?  Killed her children, raped her, then split her in fucking two?  Yeah, Arya was totally hanging with his brother.  No cause for alarm, I'm fucking sure."  
 

Just like when Sansa meets up with Jon again, do you really expect her to tell Jon : Theon Greyjoy stood by and watched Ramsay rape me.  Every night for months he'd come in and beat me and rape me.  Cover me with bruises, degrade me in anyway he could think of and this went on for -- oh, ages really -- and when I tried to get help....hey, you remember Gerta?  She was a nice old lady wasn't she?  Yeah, well, Ramsay peeled her like a grape for the great sin of giving  a shit that I was being brutalized and then made me stare at her corpse as punishment,so that I would know what asking for help in my unimaginable suffering would do to another person....but such was my suffering, that I actually tried to send for help after that too, because I was afraid Ramsay would unface me.  Also? He regularly shit in father's bed, because he could?  Want more upsetting details?  I've got them!"  

Telling Sansa, who has been through -- it cannot stressed enough -- motherfucking hell that her sister was with a man who, they might all reasonably expect to also put her through motherfucking hell is not "keeping secrets" ....its understanding the value of discretion for a trauma survivor.  

It does no earthly good for Brienne to suggest that Arya was likely getting raped twice daily too, for all that Brienne knows of the context of the Hound because he's dead and out of Arya's life (again, as far as Brienne knows) .  It's also not like Pod is going to think any better of The Hound.   There's a difference between sharing the basics "she was alive, she wasn't dressed like a lady, she seemed in reasonably good health" and sharing a pointless detail like "she was, of course, with a guy who has an insanely bad reputation...but I did kill him after he did gods knows what to your little sister....why are you crying?"  

Not understanding that telling Sansa that "she was with The Hound" would be a comfort is not something Brienne can know unless she marathoned the series prior to their sitdown.  The Hound is a badass motherfucker, Sansa has been through hell.  It serves nothing and changes nothing when Brienne did the important part:  Killed the bad man.  

Edited May 3, 2016 by stillshimpy

[loki567]

Quote

"D&D seem to revel in his sadism," but GRRM doesn't? Pop quiz: who implied that Ramsay forces his wife to fuck dogs? Because it wasn't D&D.

As for GRRM being better because he doesn't show the violence ("cutting away" just as Theon starts to perform oral sex on Jeyne, e.g.), GRRM doesn't get a cookie for leaving gruesomely sadistic, gory, and hideously sexually violent acts "off screen" but not outright depicting them: a mother's belly getting chewed through at Saltpans, an imprisoned wife devouring her own fingers, another imprisoned wife implying that her husband is forcing her to have sex with dogs, a woman getting raped on a table at a feast, etc. If anything, GRRM is far more shlocky and exploitative when it comes to outrageous gore and sexual violence than D&D ever have been (or ever will be), but for some reason certain book fans want to give him a pass because he only implies the worst stuff or hints at it taking place "off-screen". 

This argument has been had a hundred times before and I'm not interested in restarting it. But getting past the issues of exploitation and morality, the simple fact is that Ramsey is an incredibly boring character. Seriously, for the past four seasons every one of his scenes has hit the same exact notes. It's either, "Ramsey does something horrible, makes snide comment," or "Ramsey has daddy issues." FOR FOUR YEARS! Whatever complaints about GRRM missing deadlines, he's a vastly superior writer to D&D. There's a reason he didn't give Ramsey a PoV or the Mountain for that matter, because he realized there's only one note you can hit with a psychopath before it becomes incredibly tedious. Compare that to D&D who have framed most of the Northern action of the show around Ramsey the past few seasons. 

So once again, getting past any arguments about the sexual violence, just from a pure storytelling perspective, to frame so much of your story around such a vicious, one-note character was an incredibly bad idea. I don't care if Ramsey dies some super violent death that the audience is suppose to get satisfaction from, it's not going to make up for all the time spent on him. He's boring and even watching the characters I like suffer around him is boring. 

[benteen]

I can't argue with that.  D&D are obsessed with the character and the only thing the North seems to remember on this show is SUPER RAMSAY.  Seriously, he's been the main factor in the North for many years now and D&D have chosen to focus exclusively on him at the expense of the North Remembers storyline.

[Macbeth]

I feel so bad for those Bravos sellswords.  They abandon Stannis after he kills his own child, to land with the Boltons, where the son kills his father, half-brother, and stepmother.   They will warn everyone to stay the F away from Westeros  - those people are crazy.  And they never did run into Joffrey. They were on their horses 5 seconds after Ramsey's latest killing spree. 

Karstack family member is plotting to overthrow.  No way would he, as a member of a family that tossed over the Starks for killing their patriarch, back a leader who committed patricide. Ramsey should be dead real soon.

Poor Melisandre - she doesn't understand that in resurrecting Jon Snow it would take some time to kick in.  In death as in life Jon Snow has always been slow to realize what is going on.

[AuntieMame]

5 hours ago, polyhymnia said:

I am not saying Ramsay is more cartoony in the series v. books although I will say it is less subtle (sausage eating, for example) but it was nice to have a more even-keeled, calculating bad guy (Roose) around and Ramsay is boring because he is over the top.  They did a better job with Joffry.  The excesses he got away with always seems to fit because he was the king and he was protected by his at the time powerful family and powerful grandfather.  I can believe that the south didn't know much about Ramsay but not that the other Northern lords haven't heard about him being relatively batshit and I cannot see them being interested in following Roose's bastard, no matter how many kings legitimized him.  I can more see the Karstarks deciding to put one of their own in Winterfell.  Ramsay just doesn't inspire loyal followers as presented in the series (or in the books).

First, hey Polyhymnia! Is your screen name after the character from the Madeline L'Engle books? If so way cool. If not, still cool. Anyway, on to one note Ramsey and the politics of the North, it occurred to me that the Karstarks supporting Ramsey is ridiculous. Wouldn't they want the North themselves? And as a cadet or distaff branch of the ancient Stark family wouldn't they have a great claim and built in loyalty from the lesser lords? Fine, encourage Ramsey to off Roose, but then immediately cut Ramseys throat while thanking him for removing his father. Kill any Bolton supporters that appear sadistic or troublesome, conscript the rest and be left holding Winterfell. Now that would have been an episode. 

Not to mention I wouldn't have had to watch a young mother and baby fed to mastiffs. I'm glad to read I wasn't the only one to peace out during that interminable scene. I know this is dark fantasy and "gritty" but they really are salacious rather than skeptical about all of the sadistic acts against women and children. 

Interesting about Davos being a superior Number Two guy, but not a leader in his own right. I've long had a theory that things go off kilter when number twos fail to recognize their place in the grand narrative. I give Marc Antony as a supporting historical example. An argument could also be made for Nixon, but he was fatally flawed in other ways. Davos is more valuable than ever because he knows he isn't king, yet is a leader.

Thanks for reminding me of the awesome that was Manderly as the fly in the ointment at Winterfell. He may be about to die but by God he's taking a few of his enemies with him. I'll end this post where I began with surprise that book!Stannis or show!Jon has to attack Winterfell because it seems that the Northern power structure should have rearranged itself from within. Ramsay, book or show, doesn't have enough redeeming qualities as a leader to justify following a sadist since he's just as likely to kill you one fine day. The Karstarks aren't making sense. No doubt it's so we can see some other atrocities. But they're losing their power not only to shock but instruct.

[GrailKing]

I'm not going to totally disagree, but I say they were somewhat equal with the gender portion of torturer and death, and we got more out cries for Sansa's rape then we did for Shireens death or Theon's castration, rape and overall cruelty not to mention other peoples burning at stakes mainly male, arrow bolts, etc.

As far as Stannis, since we can talk book stuff here ( I'll still tag it) my only doubt about him being dead is when he

told Massey

you may hear that I'm dead it may or may not be true before he sends him to get sell swords

[Audreythe2nd]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

I can't argue with that.  D&D are obsessed with the character and the only thing the North seems to remember on this show is SUPER RAMSAY.  Seriously, he's been the main factor in the North for many years now and D&D have chosen to focus exclusively on him at the expense of the North Remembers storyline.

I'm wondering how much of it stems from them not so much liking the character of Ramsay persay, but really, really liking Iwan Rheon. He was, after all, their second choice for Jon Snow and from the commentaries I heard, they liked him so much they just kind of kept him on hold until they could find something for him (how they got "Ramsay" from "Jon Snow understudy" I will never know, but here we are). Because they work in TV and aren't just writing books in isolation the way Martin is, a lot of their decisions are going to be affected by the actors' strengths and how they perceive them, which will unfortunately bleed into the story as well on occasion. I also think it's the reason we still have Indira Varma's Ellaria hanging around. Not that I think either of these two actors in question are particularly good (though that could be in large part due to the material they've been given) but D&D clearly see something in them.

[AuntieMame]

5 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm still worried about Ghost in the long run. I'm on the fence as to whether or not Lightbringer needs to be reforged but lean towards that being the case. There's just something lame to me about Jon conveniently already having a magical sword in his possession especially when I suspect that he's going to have a pet dragon in his future. I think it will need to be made and that Ghost will likely be the sacrifice only it won't work. My guess right now is that Ghost will be the equivalent of the lion in the Azor Ahai story and that Dany will turn out to be the Nissa Nissa. Again, assuming that Lightbringer needs to be be made and that Jon doesn't just conveniently already have it because he's a special snowflake. 

The reason I'm not convinced that Shireen's death paid for Jon's life is because it doesn't seem like that was necessary with Thoros and Beric. I also feel like the delay in the timing is suspect. With Dany using Mirri Maz Duur's life in addition to Drogo's blood, that made sense to me because it was all happening at the same time in the same place and felt very deliberate even if Dany didn't understand why she instinctively knew what to do. 

With Shireen's death, she isn't anywhere near Jon, it happens days before, and it just carries over even though Mel was trying for something totally different?  

Shireen's death is horribly tragic, wrong, and sucks either way but the idea that Shireen's death paid for Jon's life makes it seem like it was somehow 'necessary' in the grand scheme of things and I guess I just don't like the idea that Melisandre was 'right' that Shireen needed to die for the greater good. I think it's stronger and even more chilling than it already is if it turns out that there is no 'upside' to Shireen's death. I don't want Mel let off of the hook for burning a child alive because of the idea that she's selflessly trying to save the universe.

This, this and this again avaleigh! Melissandre doesn't get a pass for burning a little girl at the stake. First of all, any god that demands such a sacrifice is a God to be stood against, not humored. Second, I would watch whole hours of Shireen teaching Davos to read. Davos doesn't know how Shireen died, just that she did. I reject the idea that Shireen was anything other than a waste. Also, in the legend of the sword and its making, Jon would have to sacrifice someone dear to him. Nor did Beric and Thoros have to do any sacrificing. I wonder how Jon's protracted death is going to affect him as Lady Stoneheart became Lady Stoneheart because she'd been dead too long before resurrection, at least in part. I hope they don't just gloss over that. 

I've always thought it would be most interesting if Jon really was dead and the rest of the characters had to face the ultimate winter down one prophesied hero. Now that would be a way to overturn tropes.

[GrailKing]

As far as the sword, I don't think whoever needs it needs to kill any one to temper it, now what is the sword that fights the darkness there are a few candidates ( I can remember two or three maybe four )

1. Starks ICE re forged and split in two by Tywin forming Oathkeeper and Widows Wail, was hard to split but per Tobho Mott Valayrian swords have a memory and will try to get back into it's original shape, it's already tempered no sacrifice needed.

2. House Daynes sword Dawn : The name alone denotes light, again forge and tempered no sacrificed needed

3. The Nights Watch- it's all in their words

4. Lastly something in the crypts of Winterfell, what?? maybe the original ICE taken by the victor of the previous fight for the Dawn.

Maybe there is more, maybe Samwell will find the answer.

Add more folks.

[J----av]

15 hours ago, GrailKing said:

No, he walked like two feet in, visually surveyed the area then looked down and had a oh look what I found moment, he never went to the center of the circle.

 

 Yeah it would have been much better if they spent 10 min patting down the grass and searching every inch of the small patch. This was hardly one of the less believable things that happened

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, J----av said:

 

 Yeah it would have been much better if they spent 10 min patting down the grass and searching every inch of the small patch. This was hardly one of the less believable things that happened

I can live with the short cuts, Theon and Sansa survive hypothermia, the jump, because in real life there's proof it's truly possible, and I get film is expensive. I was a kid I use to jump 80 feet from the top to the bottom with like 5 feet of sand piled up I never got hurt; but Jorah didn't go anywhere near where Dani went, if he strolled in a circle a bit I go with it ( well I'm going with it any way )brush the grass  poke in two or three places then come up lucky; that is a few seconds of time.

[J----av]

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

I'm not sure I understand. He has the ability to travel through time now, hence he has the ability to travel to a time before he was born -- as we saw in this very episode.

My suggestion is that whatever actions Bran may perform in the future to influence the past, those actions are already reflected in the past as we've seen it previously. (The "history is immutable" theory of time travel.) Hence, if Bran will some day warg into young Willas and warp his mind, those actions are already a part of Hodor's past.

 Bran is not a time traveler lol. He see's VISIONS of the past. He can't interact or warg a vision

[GrailKing]

13 minutes ago, J----av said:

 Bran is not a time traveler lol. He see's VISIONS of the past. He can't interact or warg a vision

That's a bit up in the air, when he tries to communicate people hear things, but pass it off as wind or leaves,Ned, Theon thinks they hear their names called, Asha too I believe and if the

 

Night King grabing his arm is true then he / they can interact in some way

some think Bran will be more powerful then BR.

I don't know if GRRM or B & W will go there, but there are hints in the book and show that he is attempting it

Edited May 3, 2016 by GrailKing
spelling

[J----av]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

That's a bit up in the air, when he tries to communicate people hear things, but pass it off as wind or leaves,Ned, Theon thinks they hears their names called, Asha too I believe and if the

  Hide contents

Night King grabing his arm is true then he / they can interact in some way

some think Bran will be more powerful then BR.

I don't know if GRRM or B & W will go there, but there are hints in the book and show that he is attempting it

 

 With Theon and Asha that happens in the present. He isn't interacting with things in the past      

4 hours ago, loki567 said:

This argument has been had a hundred times before and I'm not interested in restarting it. But getting past the issues of exploitation and morality, the simple fact is that Ramsey is an incredibly boring character. Seriously, for the past four seasons every one of his scenes has hit the same exact notes. It's either, "Ramsey does something horrible, makes snide comment," or "Ramsey has daddy issues." FOR FOUR YEARS! Whatever complaints about GRRM missing deadlines, he's a vastly superior writer to D&D. There's a reason he didn't give Ramsey a PoV or the Mountain for that matter, because he realized there's only one note you can hit with a psychopath before it becomes incredibly tedious. Compare that to D&D who have framed most of the Northern action of the show around Ramsey the past few seasons. 

So once again, getting past any arguments about the sexual violence, just from a pure storytelling perspective, to frame so much of your story around such a vicious, one-note character was an incredibly bad idea. I don't care if Ramsey dies some super violent death that the audience is suppose to get satisfaction from, it's not going to make up for all the time spent on him. He's boring and even watching the characters I like suffer around him is boring. 

 

 Maybe to you (personally i find Jon and Brienne REALLY boring). From what i have seen most show watchers definitely don't find Ramsay boring

Edited May 3, 2016 by J----av

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, J----av said:

 

 With Theon and Asha (probably the nights king) that happens in the present. He isn't interacting with things in the past      

I was just getting ready to goto bed LOL.

True, but people think he will try to change the future by manipulating the past ( shit Bran's GOT version of Claire Randall LOL), that’s why I said people think he may be more powerful then BR

[ElizaD]

11 hours ago, polyhymnia said:

I am irritated that anyone (Jaime or Cersei) think that Tommen owes Cersei an apology.  He owes Margaery an apology.  Cersei's stupid plan and collusion with the HS just backfired on her.  She was perfectly happy with all of this or worse happening to Margaery and Loras.  Nothing will ever make me sympathetic for that character, show, but thanks.  Tommen probably doesn't really get that his mother caused all of this, but if Jaime really thought about for 6 minutes he could probably figure it out.

Theon, on the other hand, knows he did the wrong thing (constantly) and is sorry that he did the wrong things.  He has finally admitted outloud to at least Sansa that having those other little boys killed was a horrible, horrible act that was absolutely worthy of execution and that it would be difficult to find forgiveness for those murders.

So often I'm disappointed by supposed "redemption" arcs, but this is exactly why I'm happy with Theon's. He's not just sorry that he got caught and has to deal with people judging him for his actions. No, he knows that what he did was wrong, is prepared to admit it, and feels genuine remorse. It's not a story about bad stuff happening to a character who then wants to make others respect him again, but about Theon recognizing the suffering he caused and wanting to atone for it by placing the safety of others before his own, even as he recognizes that this can't change what he's done in the past because life isn't a game where 2 good deeds erase 1 bad deed from existence. And since he respects the gravity of the wrongs he committed, his commitment to being a better person is more likely to be sincere and lasting than that of a character who worries mainly about what's happened to his reputation.

[Oscirus]

14 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

Yeah, getting rid of Roose was necessary to put House Bolton in a weaker position (with at least one of their allies betraying them eventually) so that the second war for Winterfell can be successful and not the unmitigated disaster that Stannis' doomed effort was. 

Yep, they definitely needed someone in charge that was arrogant/stupid enough to leave the defenses of Winterfell to start an unnecessary war.

 

Quote

This argument has been had a hundred times before and I'm not interested in restarting it. But getting past the issues of exploitation and morality, the simple fact is that Ramsey is an incredibly boring character. Seriously, for the past four seasons every one of his scenes has hit the same exact notes. It's either, "Ramsey does something horrible, makes snide comment," or "Ramsey has daddy issues." FOR FOUR YEARS! Whatever complaints about GRRM missing deadlines, he's a vastly superior writer to D&D. There's a reason he didn't give Ramsey a PoV or the Mountain for that matter, because he realized there's only one note you can hit with a psychopath before it becomes incredibly tedious. Compare that to D&D who have framed most of the Northern action of the show around Ramsey the past few seasons. 

I actually tend to like what they do with Ramsey because he's evil and they're not trying to  redeem him unlike every other friggin villain on this show.  As for why Ramsey has been on here for so long. They're doing what they do with every other villain on this show. Building him up until he can't go no higher and then pulling the rug out from under him.  Which I assume is going to happen sooner then later since there's no higher title that he can aspire to get.

 

I think AA and the Prince are two different people. AA is dany since her dragons are clearly infused with the souls of people that she loves and the prince is Jon.

I still fail to see the big deal of Brienne not identifying Hound by name.  Brienne not knowing who Hound was other then a fugitive is not surprising since I don't see her as someone who keeps up with politics or Kingsguards.

[planetofapes]

My only thing, why does Bran have a Noel Gallagher circa 1995 haircut when he has been living in a cave/ditch for the past few months?
Just saying.

[Advance35]

Quote

I actually tend to like what they do with Ramsey because he's evil and they're not trying to  redeem him unlike every other friggin villain on this show.  As for why Ramsey has been on here for so long. They're doing what they do with every other villain on this show. Building him up until he can't go no higher and then pulling the rug out from under him.  Which I assume is going to happen sooner then later since there's no higher title that he can aspire to get.

THIS. This is what makes the Ramsay character worthwhile in my eyes.  He's no good.  To his very core.  A villain can be just a villain IMO. 

They neutered and then white-washed Cersei, I've never bought into or felt Jaimie's "redemption" in any medium but clearly the character buys into his own.   I think that's why his current "It's me and Cersei against the world" mentality doesn't bother me.  I do think ultimately, he'll end up following his own inner ugly nature and his supposed "redemption" will just have been a red-herring.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Advance35
Content and structure

[Tikichick]

8 hours ago, Audreythe2nd said:

I'm wondering how much of it stems from them not so much liking the character of Ramsay persay, but really, really liking Iwan Rheon. He was, after all, their second choice for Jon Snow and from the commentaries I heard, they liked him so much they just kind of kept him on hold until they could find something for him (how they got "Ramsay" from "Jon Snow understudy" I will never know, but here we are). Because they work in TV and aren't just writing books in isolation the way Martin is, a lot of their decisions are going to be affected by the actors' strengths and how they perceive them, which will unfortunately bleed into the story as well on occasion. I also think it's the reason we still have Indira Varma's Ellaria hanging around. Not that I think either of these two actors in question are particularly good (though that could be in large part due to the material they've been given) but D&D clearly see something in them.

I've definitely felt as time has gone on that certain characters have been featured more than they might have been because of casting.  Tywin was the one who really convinced me this was a thing on the show.  I was convinced they wanted to change the Oberyn outcome but couldn't figure out a way.  I rather wish they had figured out a better Dornish storyline overall.

[Dev F]

6 hours ago, J----av said:

 Bran is not a time traveler lol. He see's VISIONS of the past. He can't interact or warg a vision

No, in the book it's clear that the visions are interactive. In several of them, Bran tries to call to his father in the past but realizes that he can only make tree noises ("Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind . . ."). Still, Ned's reactions ("'Who's there?' he asked, turning . . .") indicate that Bran is communicating something through time.

Of course, the show hasn't established that yet, but it did tease the possibility with the "Bran thinks Lyanna is talking to him but she's really talking to young Hodor standing directly behind him" gag.

[benteen]

A reason not to identify the Hound...already found one.  The last thing she knew, she had sent the Hound tumbling to his death.  As far as she knows, he's no longer alive and therefore no longer traveling with Arya.  So why bother identifying him to Sansa when Arya is no longer around him?

I really wish we'd gotten the scene of Theon praying before the Godswood and where Bran tries to communicate with him. 

[Chris24601]

17 hours ago, Zonk said:

I thought a red priest resurrection involved some smootching (kiss of life) or did I remember that wrong. They screwed Carice van Houten hard on this one.

Which suggests to me that there IS something different about this resurrection than the ones Berric got from Thoros. About the only thing in common for both was that they only occurred AFTER the priest had lost their faith in the Red God.

Different acts and different words but without faith in a higher power (Thoros' motivation was similarly about missing the dying person and about injustice) means that perhaps it ISN'T faith but just outright magic behind the deed (Mel is from Asshai; the same place Mirri Maz Dur was from; after all). Perhaps its something related to a deeper magic that the Red Priests and Others (or Blue Priests as I've heard them called in some theories) are just facets of? The Greenseers/CotF/Old Gods perhaps?