S04.E19: Canary Cry

[Soulfire]

Belated GIF galore --

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

I think that's my main problem with the episode too. They painted Laurel as someone I never really saw on screen, maybe aside from one or two moments? There was a total disconnect for me for that very reason. I mainly just sat there wondering why they were going on about a legacy we didn't see much of tbh. And made me a bit annoyed because Sara started that legacy but she got nothing. Nice.

[Kymmi]

Utterly forgettable episode - which it shouldn't have been.  I liked Baby Canary, especially the actress.  I wouldn't mind keeping that one.  The Oliver/Laurel retcon zzzzzzZZZzzzzZZ.  Tommy's funeral was sad - but didn't really fit with the way S1 ended.  Oliver was cool, fine with it.  A little sad, but not the destroyed Oliver we saw at the end of S1, the one I believe peaced out to Lian Yu right after it happened.  Instead he spent some quality kissy time first?  Huh.

Great to see Alex Kingston again, although Dinah is such a questionable parent.  PB was stellar as expected.

Felicity in those jeans, tho.  Dang.

[Midnight Lullaby]

10 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

She knew Laurel was the BC because she was at the hospital when Oliver brought Laurel in (probably saw them) and then stole the collar from her room.

Oh, right, thanks! Hahaha I think I erased episode 18 from my mind.

18 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Baby BC ran like Phoebe on FRIENDS. So that was a laugh for me.

Hahahahaha that's true!! I kept wondering why it looked familiar and now I have my answer.

[SmallScreenDiva]

BTW, can I just share that one time the Arrow writers agreed with me that including "someone crosses their arms" in an Arrow Bingo is "much too dangerous"? I almost asked if it was Sokolowski handling the Twitter feed for the East Coast viewing.

 

[Guest]

So with the retconning of O/L's relationship, are they saying that Laurel turned to alcohol because Oliver left her again and not because Tommy died? 

How can they make something even worse than it was?! I don't understand these writers. Just wow.

[kirkola]

16 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

one question though: how did Baby Canary know Laurel was the BC? And if she didn't, why did she go to her funeral?

In the opening scene where Quentin is pulling himself back up after the brilliant crash (acting) the episode prior, you see the Arrow club standing behind Oliver and a brunette teen streak through .  It was so obviously a Checkov's gun moment that it took me completely out of the scene.  Then a few minutes later, I get the "aha" moment when Baby Canary showed up as a blond in costume and with the collar.  It was just so obvious she'd been in the earlier scene and must have stolen the Canary Cry then.

[hogwash]

6 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

So with the retconning of O/L's relationship, are they saying that Laurel turned to alcohol because Oliver left her again and not because Tommy died? 

How can they make something even worse than it was?! I don't understand these writers. Just wow.

It does look like that but I don't think her alcohol arc started after she admitted that she really blamed herself for Tommy's death. Her first response was trying to use her ~connection~ to the Hood (Flash's "homage" to those damn rooftop withe the clueless love interest scenes was so cute. Go Wally!) to try to have him arrested.

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

So with the retconning of O/L's relationship, are they saying that Laurel turned to alcohol because Oliver left her again and not because Tommy died? 

How can they make something even worse than it was?! I don't understand these writers. Just wow.

Well it seems becoming Mrs Queen was her life goal since high school so yup. Honestly I've never believed she loved Tommy and instead was just leading him on since that awful double date in season 1. She was waiting for Oliver to give her a sign he might still be interested to jump him. And she did.

[nksarmi]

Ok, I hated the Baby Canary plot. It wasn't necessary and it just didn't work for me. I think that's partially because it's difficult for me to buy into the whole "Laurel's legacy" thing. Black Canary in the comics/cartoons is a great character who I can see someone admiring. Half of the BC reputation here would really belong to Sara, because regardless of the titles Canary/Black Canary - the costumes were essentially the same and people would see them the same (of course this is the same town who is willing to believe that the Arrow and the Green Arrow aren't the same person despite the outfits being very similar so whatever).

Now I get it - you don't want some teenage kid running around making a mockery out of Sara/Laurel's work or shooting people and turning the city against vigilantes again. But it's still really difficult to watch them treat Laurel like she's been a hero for years and years when she was either Oliver's unwanted sidekick or Diggle's teammate (when Oliver wasn't around). Then again, who else was this poor girl going to imitate? I really hope we don't see her again, but I doubt I will be that lucky.

Oh and of course they had to give us the awful Laurel / Oliver flashbacks so we can pretend that at some point the canon love actually existed.  Seriously, Oliver is sitting there telling Laurel how much Tommy loved her and they kiss and she starts talking about the future?!?!!?! Way to ruin every last bit of her character for me writers. Now I no longer have the option of pretending that the season two addiction plot was about Laurel's guilt over sleeping with Oliver and Tommy dying to save her life.  Because Laurel was all swoony over Oliver only a week after Tommy was buried!  No, now I have to accept that her entire season two plot was about losing Oliver. Yuckity, yuck.

I know they think they were honoring her character with this episode but for me - all they did was demonstrate just how awful she was from start to finish. I'm glad the character is dead.  I wish KC well, but this version of Laurel/Black Canary should have never been.

I think Paul did a good job of acting with Quentin and I bought into his pain. I believed Diggle and Felicity's reactions. But I have a hard time accepting Oliver's. I know people automatically start thinking better of the dead because they died, but they spent way too much time in season three telling me that Oliver didn't want Laurel around for me to buy into his view of her as a hero now. Other than that, I'm just kind of glad that's over.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, hogwash said:

It does look like that but I don't think her alcohol arc started after she admitted that she really blamed herself for Tommy's death. Her first response was trying to use her ~connection~ to the Hood (Flash's "homage" to those damn rooftop withe the clueless love interest scenes was so cute. Go Wally!) to try to have him arrested.

Good point. But the whole thing doesn't sit right with me now.

 

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Well it seems becoming Mrs Queen was her life goal since high school so yup. Honestly I've never believed she loved Tommy and instead was just leading him on since that awful double date in season 1. She was waiting for Oliver to give her a sign he might still be interested to jump him. And she did.

Well, after that mess I definitely don't think she ever loved Tommy beyond friendship. That whole speech at his funeral was obviously about loving him as a friend seeing as she was quick to be all happy and dreamy about the future with Oliver a week later. Gross.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Guest

[looptab]

3 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

 Dinah was particularly "Meh" about it.

That's because Dinah is a terrible human being. :)

2 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I was right about the dialogue tease being Felicity but thankfully it didn't come across bad or bitter as I thought it would. So that was a plus. I liked the Diggle/Felicity scene and that Felicity acknowledged/apologized for letting him think, even briefly, that it was his fault. It was short but I appreciated the scenes a lot. I've missed them and they just have such an easy chemistry together.

I was glad too that that dialogue didn't sound badly at all in that context. That scene was so simple but so needed, you can feel and believe that these characters have a bond.

About Saint Laurel, I think the fb were meant to show again how she has always wanted to do good, how she was a hero at heart, except you can't actually do in one episode what you failed to do in 4 seasons. I had to LOL at "Laurel would tell you that we can't become them". You mean the Laurel who was going to shoot Komodo without any proof that he killed Sara? That Laurel? TBF she seemed pissy when Oliver took Nyssa prisoner and when he was going to interrpgate Anarchy, but I don't recall any other instance.

I've read people saying that the last scene in the limo was shot separately by EBR and SA, what do you think? Also that there was CGI, but I didn't notice any of that.When was it?

Edited April 28, 2016 by looptab

[AyChihuahua]

10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

So with the retconning of O/L's relationship, are they saying that Laurel turned to alcohol because Oliver left her again and not because Tommy died? 

How can they make something even worse than it was?! I don't understand these writers. Just wow.

My group of Arrow Twitterers got two hashtags going last night, and one was #BecauseOliverWouldNotPutOut.

So yeah, for me they pretty much made it so all her season 2 crap was re Oliver dumping her ass again. REALLY puts a different spin on her reactions to Oliver, Sara, and Felicity. Like now I'm convinced she was serious about taking over Felicity's job as Oliver's EA, and in the last few episodes she was positioning herself to get him back. Just totally awful.

7 minutes ago, hogwash said:

It does look like that but I don't think her alcohol arc started after she admitted that she really blamed herself for Tommy's death. Her first response was trying to use her ~connection~ to the Hood (Flash's "homage" to those damn rooftop withe the clueless love interest scenes was so cute. Go Wally!) to try to have him arrested.

She was already drinking in 2.1. They focused on her and the champagne in that episode quite a bit. She was probably pretty liquored up when she confronted the Hoods, so she had some nice liquid courage going.

[EmeraldArcher]

21 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I was really hoping the dialogue tease wasn't going to be Felicity. But it actually ended up working for me because of Emily's delivery and that it was between her and Diggle. If there are two people who can joke about Oliver's kid, it's them. 

 Didn't mind Felicity being the one to say it, but I REALLY wish "secret kid" or "love child" would have been used instead of "illegitimate."  I hate the concept of illegitimacy because it's a legality carried over from patriarchal inheritance that denied someone with that status any sort of value as a person. To me, it's the same as "bastard"--I just abhor both terms. 

I know that's on the writers and not Felicity, but words always matter.  What couldn't they have used the word "spawn," like we do with such affection here? ;-)

[Guest]

*Shallow comment alert*

Felicity looked stunning in the limo scene. And in those tight black jeans. Hubba!

Also Oliver wore red plaid. Let us rejoice.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Okay, it's a little mean but I also can't stop laughing, LOL

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

For me the only good thing about the episode was EBR's ass in those jeans. I mean DAMN.

Yes, Wardrobe deserves a special shout out for that clothing choice. Well done. 

34 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

"I'm so excited for the future.".........Laurel, Tommy has been dead for ONE WEEK, why are you such an awful human being? Oliver is just as awful, giving her a pity kiss and leading her on while he was mentally planning his trip to the island. Yikes. Those two together are the worst.

The flashback scenes were awful and just reinforced what garbage people those two are together. Undead Tommy's chilling on a beach somewhere counting his blessings he dodged that bullet. I skipped the first fireside scene because...no, but I caught the letter scene. And laughed and laughed. How sad yet utterly appropriate that Oliver left that for Laurel to find. Love you so much!!! Hugs and kisses - got to jet off to deserted island! Let's never speak again. And then to actually show him in the plane! Comedy gold, ya'll. 

Baby Canary didn't bother me. I don't know that I actually saw a point to her, other than to crap on Laurel some more, but she neither excites nor offends me. I'm fine if she comes back. 

Lastly, please let me never have to watch this show again without you lovely people. I know the Mods were happy to get a break, but I missed you all.

[popgoesculture]

That was a mess of an episode, from the writing (and the retconning/assassination of Laurel and Oliver's characters in the flashbacks), to the acting. I laughed out loud when Diggle confronted Ruve, and I was mainly perplexed by Dinah's accent rather than touched by her or Quentin's scenes. All of it was so over the top. And usually I find DR, PB, and EBR make me feel SOMETHING in episodes. This time I just felt confused, especially by the limo scene, because they definitely asked EBR and SA to basically go through whiplash. Felicity and Oliver have the nice talk earlier in the ep, but now both are turned towards vengeance? They should've told them earlier who was in the grave. The beats of the scene were all wrong. 

The baby BC storyline was inconsequential, even down to the two men that she shot. 

This whole episode was clearly a case of not planning from the outset, and instead, trying to put together puzzle pieces and hope it doesn't turn into a mess. 

[AyChihuahua]

5 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

  I know that's on the writers and not Felicity, but words always matter.  What couldn't they have used the word "spawn," like we do with such affection here? ;-)

Just tbc, I for one do NOT use "spawn" affectionately.

; >

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, kirkola said:

In the opening scene where Quentin is pulling himself back up after the brilliant crash (acting) the episode prior, you see the Arrow club standing behind Oliver and a brunette teen streak through .  It was so obviously a Checkov's gun moment that it took me completely out of the scene.  Then a few minutes later, I get the "aha" moment when Baby Canary showed up as a blond in costume and with the collar.  It was just so obvious she'd been in the earlier scene and must have stolen the Canary Cry then.

Yeah, I found that real distracting because I saw the actress cutting right between Oliver and I was like 'Hey, she's the girl that's going to be important in, like, ten minutes'. 

Yeah, so as a Laurel-heavy episode, it wasn't bad. It was certainly in character, for the most part. If I just look at the present day stuff, the episode did honor Laurel and her legacy. What I appreciated is that the whole episode really was focused on Laurel the entire time and for the actual Laurel/BC fans, it was good for them. I didn't love mini Black Canary, but her reason for taking the mantle was actually alright. The doctor said to Oliver that the girl was 'off', so I figure the death of her parents caused a pretty bad mental breakdown and that's why she took over as the Black Canary as revenge. I don't want her to ever join the team, but she was a good guest star, and it gave her the potential to come back from time to time. 

Plus, this episode gave everyone a chance to express their feelings about Laurel and her death. Diggle's hit the hardest, which is understandable. Felicity and Diggle get a scene, you guys! And it's a good solid two minute scene! Thea will probably get more later. And Oliver was the right balance of supportive to others (honestly, a big step for him when it comes to loss) and expressing his own grief. He was holding it together for his team, especially for Quentin, and I really appreciate that they took this route.

I felt so bad for Quentin. He broke my heart. He's experienced Sara dying and coming back to life so many times, but with Laurel, it's the first time. Of course he thinks she could come back too. Honestly, I hope she doesn't, for Quentin's sake. I think she needs to stay dead for the sole purpose that Quentin isn't going to be able to handle another resurrection, especially with the potential for death again. He's had to witness this all too many times. But I don't mind that he was actively pursuing options to bring her back. Sara came back from the dead, so why can't Laurel? And Quentin always had that strong relationship with Laurel, so I really did feel for him when he was telling Oliver that Laurel was his rock. Poor guy. Oliver looks like he's really going to be there for Quentin. Now, it would be nice if they could keep Alex Kingston around so Dinah can be there for Quentin. 

Overall, the present day scenes were really well done. I honestly expected worse, but it was the right balance of character interactions over Laurel, and character progression to move the plot forward. 

Now, the flashbacks. It would have been better if they didn't pander to the Lauriver fans one more time. At least, not in the way that they did. As much as it was in character, it did make it seem like Laurel's alcoholism was a direct result of Oliver leaving her again. I know it also has to do with Tommy, but it really didn't do her character justice. I think they should have approached the flashbacks differently. Personally, what I would have done was have Laurel only thinking about Tommy and wanting to honour his memory by doing something, but I also wanted to see her express some guilt about his death, because ultimately he died because of her. Having Oliver there comforting her would be fine, but I wanted it to be more about Tommy than her future with Oliver. 

I know that they were throwing long time Lauriver fans one last bone as some sort of apology for what they have done to that ship, but it didn't work overall for me because it tarnished Tommy, and it made Laurel and Oliver look like awful people. Even though theoretically, it fit because of their relationship at the end of season 1, it just didn't make anyone look good. 

Also....they missed the opportunity of having flashback Laurel uttering those famous words instead of Oliver... "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world". DAMNIT, MISSED OPPORTUNITY, SHOW. 

[nksarmi]

I want to say that I don't care if Baby Canary shows up again as long as she's NOT in costume and then I think about having a 16 year old join the plot of Arrow - even for a couple of episodes - and all that comes to mind is - no, no, no, no, no, no, no........

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I want to say that I don't care if Baby Canary shows up again as long as she's NOT in costume and then I think about having a 16 year old join the plot of Arrow - even for a couple of episodes - and all that comes to mind is - no, no, no, no, no, no, no........

I think she is going to show up in costume again but it's probably because she'll want to join in destroying DD and HIVE. If she does turn up in s5 (not sure where they're going with that), I doubt she'll be wearing a BC outfit. She'll be something else. I don't really want that but this show has the habit of giving me things I don't want. LOL.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Guest

[ComicFan777]

Baby Canary might come back as a new superhero.  I think her full name on Felicity's screen was Evelyn Crawford Sharp - since Evelyn Crawford is a dc comics hero Starling in Birds of Prey skilled in fighting, the writers might be setting her up to come back as a new mask after some training.

[hogwash]

Did the flashback at Laurel's apt feel like the Ghost of Lauriver Yet to Come to anyone else?  A weird glimpse at what could've been the start of Laurel becoming the Black Canary alongside Oliver becoming the Green Arrow if Oliver hadn't secretly been a vigilante/spree killer who had just failed horribly at his life's mission... 

[quarks]

Good things:

1. It's a minor miracle, but in between all of the retconning, plot holes and failing to sync up timelines across the Arrowverse, Arrow actually remembered a dangling plot point from a previous episode! I KNOW!  Kudos, also, for having a character call Team Arrow out on a genuine failure.

2. Yay, Nyssa was on our screens again, often in torchlight.  And doing what she could to calm things down.

3. Paul Blackthorne had a pretty decent night. And liked Quentin's understandable confidence that since this is Arrow, he could easily bring Laurel back to life, even if Nyssa had destroyed the Lazarus Pit.

4. Nice scene between Oliver and Felicity about feeling guilty over Diggle and Laurel, even if I couldn't help finding Felicity's sweater just a bit distracting there. 

5. Greatly appreciated the way Arrow emphasized that yes, yes, Baby Canary has had extensive physical training, since I sense we'll need that in the inevitable upcoming fan comparisons between Sara, Laurel and Baby Canary.

6. The hands down best moment of the episode:

Ruve: Arrest him! ARREST THE GREEN ARROW!

Goon squad: Nah, we're good.

Even if that did immediately lead to:

Questionable things:

1. Arrow, we are all, alas, all too well aware that you are a Batman ripoff. But there's ripping off Batman, and then there's having a character say, "I've seen this movie before."

2. Who, exactly, put Oliver in charge of Laurel's tombstone so he could do that hide the Black Canary name in flowers trick?

3. Oliver, I know you're grieving and you're not always the best people person, but was Laurel's grave really the best place to let Dinah know what her daughter was up to?  You couldn't have called her with a heads up first? That was mean.

4. Adding in the 12 hospital people, this makes, what, about 60 people who now know Oliver's "secret" identity, not counting various ARGUS people, right?

5. Wow, the difference between the number of attendees at Tommy's funeral versus Laurel's was….pretty stark. Especially given that Tommy's funeral presumably happened just a few days after a significant section of the city was destroyed, which presumably would have kept a few people busy. I'd let this go except for one factor: given that Oliver specifically wanted everyone to know Laurel's identity, why didn't he make sure that more people – and in particular, the reporters – were there? I realize the camera wanted to frame Quentin and Donna without people behind them, but they had room on the side and the extras were presumably still milling around, so, odd.

6. "Sorry your mom couldn't attend Tommy's funeral."  Why on earth would this even have been BROUGHT UP?  Moira was arrested for mass murder. Of course she wasn't allowed to leave the jail for the funeral!

7. So, why did Alex go into politics?  Also, I thought Thea and Felicity were going to try to get him a job at Palmer Tech, so he wouldn't have to go and work for Ruve? Though I can easily fanwank that Alex took a look at the number of times people have sailed right through the Palmer Tech windows and decided that, even with the mayoral death rate, he was safer over in the Star City mayoral offices.

8. Speaking of Ruve, why would anyone believe, at this point, that the Star City government would be competent enough to fix the sewage systems? You need a better explanation, Ruve.

9.  And also speaking of Ruve, Oliver, since when are the mayors of Star City off limits? Absolutely no one else has a problem killing them off, Oliver! They're usually lucky to survive for an entire episode!

10. And speaking of the briefly mentioned DA, dude, I TOLD YOU TO STAY IN FIJI. Did you listen to me? No, no you did not. When you die in the next four episodes, don't blame me.

11. Felicity and Thea's sweaters. Don't do this to me, Arrow.

12. Exactly when did our little Baby Canary learn how to calibrate Cisco's sonic device so that she could use it?

13. Does anyone on this show care about medical privacy laws? I mean, I realize that you're all in one small hospital room so keeping medical secrets is a bit tricky, but still.

14. Both Oliver and Felicity scenes highlighted a real problem with them this episode – and an issue going forward in the next few episodes: they're broken up in the plot, but they are still acting as if they are together, to the point where my housemate, who doesn't watch the show on a regular basis, said, "Oh, they got back together?"

And by acting, I'm not just talking about the characters apparently deciding to take a limo to a funeral together, or hugging tightly at hospitals, or explaining why they fell in love, although, yeah, that too, but their physical stance and positioning. Amell and EBR can play these two as a couple; they are flopping at playing these two as split up.

[nksarmi]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

I think she is going to show up in costume again but it's probably because she'll want to join in destroying DD and HIVE. If she does turn up in s5 (not sure where they're going with that), I doubt she'll be wearing a BC outfit. She'll be something else. I don't really want that but this show has the habit of giving me things I don't want. LOL.

I was kind of hoping that killing off a mask this season would mean more focus on the remaining characters AND better fight scenes. The repeated use of Black Canary and Speedy fighting the SAME bad guy made them both look ineffective. So other than this teenager providing them information to help defeat DD/HIVE - I have absolutely no use for her.

I don't think this show needs another reoccurring character (they could make wonderful use of the ones they already have - more Lyla would be a wonderful thing) and it really doesn't need another mask. Also, because the actress really didn't impress me that much - I'm crossing my fingers no one even thinks of bringing her over to Legends.

Of course, I fully realize that my biggest objection to her is the fact that she's a teen. If they made her a college student like Wally - I probably would find her ever so slightly less objectionable. Maybe. Probably not.

[tennisgurl]

That was a big heaping pile of...not bad. I mean, it was weirdly muted, considering a main character just died, who was close to so many of the main characters. Hell, even Dinah felt muted for a woman whos daughter just died. Maybe they were going for "everyone is in shock" but mostly they gave "everyone is bored out of their minds and possibly on Zanex". Nyssa and Quentin were the only two that I really bought were in pain. Paul just killed it this episode, as I knew he would. And I actually liked that they announced Laurel as the Black Canary at her funeral. I thought that worked.

Yeah the flashbacks were pretty insensitive to poor Tommy (I still miss you the most Tommy!) but at least it was better than another pit stop at the Island of Plot Holes and Terrible Accents. 

[Duke Silver]

I only hate-watch this show now, but OMFG....the show went above & beyond to hammer into watchers' heads that LL is dead, never to return.  I actually audibly laughed at how hard they were hammering that point home.  For them to feel the need to do so for a character that should've been loved...tells me all one would need to know about TPTB.

[kirkola]

11 minutes ago, quarks said:

8. Speaking of Ruve, why would anyone believe, at this point, that the Star City government would be competent enough to fix the sewage systems? You need a better explanation, Ruve.

You know, I think rather than chasing Ruve down and trying to killer her, Diggle should invest in some spy software.  I won't at all be surprised if we don't find ourselves in the sewers next week.

[Guest]

So does Alex actually work for HIVE knowingly, or is he just another person who doesn't realize who his employers are? They left that a bit open.

[quarks]

Bad things:

1. Arrow. Flash. Legends of Tomorrow. I'm all about your crossover episodes. Love them.  I'm even – kinda – signing on to the increasingly illogical excuses that Legends of Tomorrow finds for using Arrow's sets, or Arrow's increasingly questionable excuses for not bringing in Barry, Vixen or other superpowered characters to help out against Darhk.

But if these crossovers are going to work at all, they need to:

A. Be aired in chronological order. I get that the events in Arrow episode 419 take place before The Flash 218, but the problem with this is that, hello, Arrowverse, you know that Flash usually broadcasts Tuesdays, and Arrow Wednesdays. Given the episode numbers, it should not have surprised anyone that 419 aired the day after 219, and this should have been planned for. Arrow knew when the death was coming (it was about six months after the premiere), so, ensure that Flash has Barry lose his powers in episode 217 – just in time to regain them in episode 219.  Yes, this would have made the Supergirl crossover trickier, but then again – get creative. Say that Zoom was able to steal Barry's powers after the crossover back to Earth 1 after Supergirl left Barry exhausted.  Or say that Wally was kidnapped while Barry was off getting ice cream for Kara. I don't know. But integrate it better.

A. Include characters in episodes where they really, really should be there. In this particular case, I'm talking about not having Cisco, Sara and – to a lesser extent – Ray showing up for Laurel's funeral.  Arrow and Flash have established that there's a train running between Central City and Star City, and given the unfortunate timing, The Flash has established that Cisco had some downtime prior to 218, allowing him to pop over. In fact it makes more sense for Cisco to arrive, given that he bonded more with Laurel than Barry ever did, and Carlos Valdes didn't have to film in Los Angeles for Supergirl during this period.

And while I realize that Lotz and Routh were busying filming, uh, guys, we can all tell you're filming on the same soundstages. Last week Legends of Tomorrow was in the Star City police station set and the QC/Palmer Tech set.  We're talking a half day of filming and five lines of dialogue on Legends of Tomorrow to set this up.

2. Speaking of scheduling issues, the problems with filming flash forwards:

Felicity, mid episode: "I'm feeling all guilty about Laurel's death, but not, you know, really feeling a killing spree about it."

Oliver, all episode: "We can't kill!  Even an Evil Mayor who is doing something to the city's sewer system! Laurel wouldn't want it!"

Felicity, in pre-filmed limo scene: "KILL HIM KILL HIM KILLITY KILL HIM.

Oliver, in limo with Felicity:  "Yeah, I'm cool with that. Except, this whole magic idol thing. Which I forgot to talk to you about earlier this season when I first mentioned that I'd seen magic before."

Way to make previous filming destroy the entire theme of the episode, Arrow.

3. This is a minor point in the flashbacks, but, er, hey, a large part of the city had been physically destroyed and smushed and more than 500 people had died so maybe everyone should have been a touch more upset about this? They were in season two.

4. "BABY CANARY IS RUINING LAUREL'S LEGACY!"  WHAT LEGACY, I ask.  "Laurel followed the law!" No, she ran around at night in leather beating people up with sticks.  Incompetently.

This might have worked had Arrow spent any of the episode talking about Laurel's actual legacy – that is, criminals she brought down/put away, or, as I'm about to argue, showing that people can overcome an addiction to drugs/alcohol and move past rage/depression, something her fans correctly point to as the character's main strength, and something I wish had been celebrated more in this episode. As it was, Arrow failed to explain exactly what Laurel's legacy was or why Baby Canary should follow it, especially given that as the episode also noted, part of Laurel's legacy was leaving a number of people in cells to be experimented on by Darhk. You know what, Baby Canary? You forget all about Team Arrow and just go and do your own Baby Canary thing.

And now, Laurel:

Arrow had several different options here: shown more people running around in tunnels on the Evil Island for no apparent reason other than eat up screentime; tried to work around Caity Lotz and Alex Kingston's filming schedules and shown some Lance family scenes; or – given the supposed importance of Laurel's death on the present day timeline – gone the shocking route of, for once, not having flashbacks at all, and instead focused on everyone's reactions to the death of a major character who started out as the lead of the show. Or, failing that, shown more of Baby Canary in action (since I sense this was not her last appearance on the show) or even answered everyone's pressing question: why did Alex go into politics?

Instead, in an episode that kept assuring us – in the present day timeline – that it wanted to honor Laurel's memory and indeed suggest that she had helped to inspire Oliver to become the Green Arrow, Arrow used this episode's flashbacks to suggest – largely inadvertently, I think – that Laurel was at least partly responsible – only partly inadvertently, I think – for most of that went wrong in the second season and part of when wrong in the third season. And by "went wrong" I don't, for once, mean plot issues, but actual death and destruction.

Let's look:

In the original timeline, Oliver fled to the island right after Tommy's funeral, unable to deal with his grief. As a direct result of that flight, the city spiraled even further down into crime, since the Hood wasn't there to help take out criminals (season three and early season four double down on this point), Sebastian Blood was able to take advantage of the violence to make a run for mayor, and, more importantly, Oliver lost partial control of Queen Consolidated to Isabel – allowing Isabel in turn to later take over QC entirely (remember, the script clarified that Isabel had been setting that up for months) and help Slade attack the city.

In the retconned timeline, Oliver doesn't flee immediately after Tommy's funeral. Rather, he sticks around for a week, heading over to Laurel's twice. The second time, after looking at various pictures of the three of them, Laurel starts planning a future where they save the city together. Oliver kisses her – and then immediately looks guilty and panicked, and flees.

Several things here: first, Laurel knew/knows better.  The last time she suggested building a future with Oliver, he jumped on a boat with her sister, dooming Sara to a lifetime of assassins and time travel and having to listen to Kendra complaining about her doomed love life. It's very sad. So yes, this is an actual error on Laurel's part, confirmed, even in the retcon, by Oliver's decision to jump ship immediately.

But more importantly, this episode strongly suggests that if Laurel hadn't started planning out their future together, Oliver would have stayed in Starling City, working towards making the city a better place – and thus, making it harder for Isabel, Sebastian Blood and Slade to come to power, thus, making everything that went wrong in season two partly Laurel's fault.

That this was also a) a retcon from season two, which stressed that Laurel felt so guilty about sleeping with Oliver right after Tommy's breakup that she ended up trying to arrest the Arrow and turning to alcohol, b) had Laurel start planning a future with Oliver just one week after the funeral of the guy who died saving her, c) had this happen about a week and a half after Laurel's clear, evident devastation over Tommy's death, d) featured the two of them canoodling in front of a fireplace while other less fortunate people were presumably still trying to work through the wreckage of their houses just added to the issues here. That this all happened in an episode that flat out told us that Laurel left people to be experimented on, while also trying to assure us that she was an inspiration to us all.....

I realize, of course, that Arrow had a narrative problem here – it had to explain, within the episode, exactly why Laurel was important to Oliver while simultaneously explaining why her death didn't send him into the same tailspin that it sent Diggle. But in doing so, it somehow managed to make Laurel look even worse. I'd even argue that Laurel was more of an inspiration back in the hell that you put her through in the original, pre-retconned season two, which presented her realistic response to violence, and argued that drugs/alcoholism could be overcome. That could and probably should have been her legacy. Instead, we got this.

[CabotCove]

Quote

Baby Canary might come back as a new superhero.  I think her full name on Felicity's screen was Evelyn Crawford Sharp - since Evelyn Crawford is a dc comics hero Starling in Birds of Prey skilled in fighting, the writers might be setting her up to come back as a new mask after some training.

Oh Frak, I thought that name sounded familiar.

And Oh shit they are totally going to run another bird too

Edited April 28, 2016 by WildcardC

[foreverevolving]

Man you never know how much you miss something until it's gone.

Seriously Previously TV don't ever go offline again on a Wednsday! I missed my Arrow peeps last night!

2 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

I am flabbergasted that they destroyed what was left of Laurel's character. She was so smiley and happy with Oliver ONE WEEK after Tommy died SAVING HER LIFE, even after she SCREWED HIS BEST FRIEND. (TBC, it didn't make me think much of Oliver, either.)

Y'all realize that her whole addiction/manhunt arc in S2 is now about Oliver not wanting her, right? She legit forgot Tommy's name ("Tommy...that sounds familiar...was that your gardener's name, Ollie?") ONE WEEK after he died. I just...I just don't understand.

To be fair, I think that's why Oliver left. after they finished kissing he didn't look like a man inlove but a man who is guilt ridden, also - and I may be reading my own dislike of the couple into this, and this may also be SA acting choice- Oliver looked like he suddenly realized: 1) we're shit-ass human beings, 2) woman! what future? I don't think I even really love you! I need to get the fuck out of here.. So when does the next plane to Lian Yu leaving?

 

As for the episode, I admit the kiss wasn't too bad but still no passion from Oliver, and KC looked as if her character wasn't dead dead dead and she thinks she may be coming back and rekindling this shitty romance. Like she shit ass smiled like when she got the jacket. Oh shit you guys don't think?

Any way, Lance broke my heart but I did enjoy his scenes with Oliver and Nyssa. I liked how Oliver called him by his first name. and that he reminded Quentin that he's not the only person to lose a family member. (although I admit losing a child is ten folds worse than losing a parent when you are an adult).

 

So who was the young girl with Nyssa we saw in the pictures?

 

Baby Canary had more training than Laurel had. like she was a bit clumsy but there's potential there! and the actress wasn't too bad in her acting. I wouldn't mind if she comes back one day, but not as BC- maybe as a different mask.
 

So does everyone who works in the hospital knows Oliver is the GA? the doctor sure did. I hope she comes back, seriously the team needs a doctor on their team!

Yay for OTA is back plus Speedy and Lance.

 

What else...

That's all for now I think.

[kismet]

1 hour ago, Delphi said:

Love that forum is back!! Not liking new setup yet. My tablet won't let me delete above quote box :/ which was gonna answer that Moira was in jail, but its been answered.

Anyway, the episode was alright. The retconning of Lauriver was totally fan service and it shit upon Tommy, Oliver, but mostly Laurel. I thought the show has scraped the barrel in making LL look pathetic over OQ, but clearly they found new lows. There really was no need for the kiss or for the love letter. It really did retcon everything in an awful light. As someone who actually slightly rooted for them to get back together in s1, I was disgusted by the flashbacks. It ruined everything about their relationships & friendships. Tommy deserved so much better from them and from the show. My fav part though was even SAs voiceover was dripping with anti chemistry. He couldn't even get his voice on board to act out a scenea

No wonder LL was such a bitch to SL & FS in s2, she was jilted woman that turned to booze and pills to get over OQ. And when that didnt work she tried to single white female herself into his life for the next two years. I wouldn't be surprised if there are deleted scenes of her "friendship" with FS where she actively encourages her to walk away because of secret love child.

I didn't mind all the BC is a hero thing cuz in the comics she is & it is a comics TV show, but it totally did not sync up with the actual show. But if its what they had to do to get her off the show - I can fanwank she did more than flip her hair and cross her arms.

[AyChihuahua]

I have to say, I feel like the flashbacks shit on Laurel and to a lesser extent Oliver, not Tommy. Tommy was awesome and brave and loved Laurel. She just didn't give a flying fart about him after all. Which hey, you're not required to love someone back, but then maybe don't enter into a serious relationship with him?

[pizza pizza]

GODDAMN! Petition for more jeans!Felicity ;)

[SmallScreenDiva]

37 minutes ago, Duke Silver said:

I only hate-watch this show now, but OMFG....the show went above & beyond to hammer into watchers' heads that LL is dead, never to return.  I actually audibly laughed at how hard they were hammering that point home.  For them to feel the need to do so for a character that should've been loved...tells me all one would need to know about TPTB.

I'm actually not surprised by the repeated mention that Laurel is really, most certainly deader than dead because a lot of viewers are like Quentin: They just don't believe it. And who can blame them after the many "resurrections" on this show. It's not over yet, you know. They'll need to close every single avenue for the character to return: LOT (time-travel), The Flash (multiverse).

Edited April 28, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[quarks]

1 hour ago, looptab said:

I've read people saying that the last scene in the limo was shot separately by EBR and SA, what do you think? Also that there was CGI, but I didn't notice any of that.When was it?

That's what it looked like to me. The camera, instead of pulling back and showing them both together, flips between the two of them, and in a rare background CGI issue, the lighting/weather is slightly different on Felicity's side than on Oliver's side. 

I'm pretty sure that, as usual on TV shows, all of Arrow's limo scenes are CGI, by the way - the actors are sitting in a car on a soundstage with greenscreened windows, and then computer footage is inserted into the windows. Film/TV has been doing the car on a soundstage trick since at least 1922; CGI just makes it look a bit better than the old method of running film behind the car.

[Sakura12]

With Baby Canary Starling, do you think they got rid of Laurel to add another mask or is she a few episodes and done this season?

I mind the making a Laurel the best hero in the world, because Sara didn't get that and she actually did stand out since when she showed up their were not a million masked people running around with or without superpowers. I'm going to have to go with people didn't know their were two Canaries in black. Otherwise Laurel did nothing of note to make people want to dress up like her. 

Was Baby BC's canary cry better? Would that be another FU to KC? Sara's Canary bombs were more effective and now Baby BC improved the Canary collar, making both of them better than Laurel's BC. 

[apinknightmare]

One thing this episode also accomplished was convincing me to never read another Arrow tie-in comic again. That retconned funeral issue is $.99 whole cents and five minutes of my life I'll never get back!

[TwistedandBored]

It was like the writers were on a mission to finish destroying Laurel and Loliver legacy. They might be saying the words of how awesome Laurel was but the actions being shown onscreen was complete opposite. Like they went back and showed us how delusional Laurel was in her importance to Oliver incase we missed during her deathbed scenes. They also showed us how Oliver is at his worst when he is with her. They finished that whole thing off by making Oliver literally run back to that hellish Island. Seriously, just amazing. 

 

I am now side-eying the writers for this cause it has got to be intentional. LMAO!

[Lantern7]

Feels odd to be talking about Arrow the day after. Good to see the conversation ignited, even if it's for a blah episode. Also, it makes me wonder . . . if Laurel and Oliver had sex on top of Tommy's grave, would that count as a threesome? Discuss.

Hey . . . no Five Years Ago flashbacks! I didn't really feel like things were getting retconned, because I was relieved that the dullest flashbacks were put on hold.

Like Quentin, I'm a little into denial about Laurel's death, mainly because things were staged for wiggle room to bring her back. Quentin lost Sara twice (and once more without him knowing it), so of course he'd figure Laurel would come back. I'm happy Nyssa wrecked the Lazarus Pit, because Laurel is one less headache to deal with.

Hi, River! Bye, River! And do women go with their middle names often? I thought that was a guy thing (e.g., Lynn Nolan Ryan, George Thomas Seaver, Henry Louis Gehrig).

Totally would have understood if Ruve got killed. It wouldn't have been right, and Diggle would've hated himself forever afterward, but she's a one-note character.

[AyChihuahua]

They showed him in the seaplane! Which he presumably bought, bc his ass was NOT waiting for a commercial flight. (He could have flown commercial to China and then bought the seaplane, but my version is funnier.)

Weirdly, I kind of loved that, not only for showing him getting the eff out ASAP, but also it explained how they all got back off the island in 2.1.

One other thing I liked, which I didn't expect to, is that it turned out there was some strategic reasoning put into outing LL as the BC. It wasn't just some blah blah protecting her legacy thing, it was also about preempting another possible manhunt for all the vigilantes. I will just blow off all the legal ramifications of an active DA also being an active vigilante for Oliver actually using whatever remaining brain cells he has.

[tv echo]

Except for the flashbacks*, 419 should've been titled "The Canonization of Laurel Lance." (Multiple meanings.) Just how many times was Laurel called a "hero" in this episode? I was waiting for the mother of the little girl who was saved from a burning house by Sara last season to show up on a news broadcast to defend the Black Canary.

(* I believe the flashbacks were seriously intended to show a great love between Oliver and Laurel in the past.  But like what happens a lot on this show, what the writers intended is not what came across to some viewers.)

Edited April 28, 2016 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

Boring episode and yet another shitty send off for Laurel. Nuff said. Show is already deleted off my dvr.

[Hook75]

 Laurel's sister is on a time machine so my biggest fear is that she will come back to life. PLEASE, PLEASE keep her dead, I don't want to see her ever again.

A whole hour pimping saint Laurel was too much.

STFU Felicity. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, tv echo said:

(* I believe the flashbacks were seriously intended to show a great love between Oliver and Laurel in the past.  But like what happens a lot on this show, what the writers intended is not what came across to some viewers.)

That wasn't a great love. That was a perfect example of a couple of assholes.

[kismet]

22 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I have to say, I feel like the flashbacks shit on Laurel and to a lesser extent Oliver, not Tommy. Tommy was awesome and brave and loved Laurel. She just didn't give a flying fart about him after all. Which hey, you're not required to love someone back, but then maybe don't enter into a serious relationship with him?

Perhaps.… but really why even bring back his character & funeral? It indirectly ruined his memory & shat on him. There was no narrative need even to set the flashbacks up. They almost would have been better doing a parallel to SLs funeral. Plus the emotional juggernaut of burying two children would have been a tour de force of acting by PB. Perhaps then they could have even thrown the original Canary some hero praise.

[TwistedandBored]

Laurel Lance, always trying to make a future with Oliver happen. 

[tarotx]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

I hate the new update..................