S04.E19: Canary Cry

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Except that the comics showed Oliver giving Tommy's eulogy - the comics we've been told are part of canon. They also showed Oliver trying to see Laurel and Laurel refusing to see him - she was depressed and wanting to be alone. Not "excited about the future with Ollie."

The more I think about this - the grosser the flashbacks become. Why did I watch??!!?

The best part is Lance telling Oliver she doesn't want to see him and her crying while on the show she was all "Hey Ollie, wanna come in?" "I lit the fireplace and some candles but I totally don't want to trap you into a relationship, don't worry."

Seriously the next step if he didn't show up at her apartment was breaking into his house naked.

[kismet]

There were no flashbacks, just visions from an alternate reality.... It was Beth Schwartz's & Wendy Mercles attempt at fanfiction.

If they were not figments of LL's dead imagination in the morgue ~ then my other theory is that they were fictional reenactments of Laurel's Diary. You know like they do in crime shows. There was nothing tangible to indicate that they events that unfolded in the past actually ever occurred. It's a shame that even in the afterlife, OQ still runs away from LL, no peace for her even in the afterlife. 

The only concrete evidence we have is LL's picture back in her possession, not OQ's. At this point, Psycho-obsessed LL probably just stole her photo back from OQ and that's how it wound up in her wallet.

[Fables]

It was quite sad that Laurel got killed off and I still think it was a mistake of the producers but it's done and it's clear she isn't coming back but the aftermath of her death was quite compelling and touching.  I didn't care for the teen Black Canary  wannabe. I also didn't care for Diggle's confrontation with the Mayor Ruve. I know he's  feeling guilty because of his brother's involvement in Laurel's death and he's was going off the deep end, but still that scene was too out of character of him and glad that Oliver stopped him before he did something he only regret later.  Oliver stopped him more for his sake than the Mayor's which was right.  However, it did make him seem a bit hypocritical because now he plans on killing Damien himself out of revenge after his lecture to Diggle who was planning to do the some.  I guess the only difference he probably can rationalize if that Damien actually murdered Laurel while his wife didn't plus Damien is fare more dangerous and poses a real threat in the city.

[AudienceofOne]

She's the Mayor! She has the police! And the media!

Ah, not if she's dead, Oliver. #justsaying

Next scene - Mayor using police and media to target vigilantes. Oh, that's why they had him say it. Still, she wouldn't be able to do that if she was dead #justsaying.

I thought Baby Canary was a terrible performance in an episode of terrible performances. I don't know if the director is inexperienced or if the actors are phoning it in but these last two episode have been really bad. Even Paul Blackthorne wasn't working for me in this and that's saying something. Maybe if they'd ditched the flashbacks (what flashbacks?) and extended the grieving scenes I could have seen them as something more than a comic book square. TV needs to breathe (I know, I know, I say this a lot). But Baby Canary was gratingly awful and I hope she's not recurring.

[romantic idiot]

And Dahrke (sp?) is not the Mayor of the city - which seemed to be Oliver's only real objection. 

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

Except it didn't take me half an hour to work it out, and I was unaided by beer. Also, I'd still like to know when exactly Laurel became an amateur photographer of graveyards.

Lol. I had (did/) a doubletake at that transition too. 

1 hour ago, kismet said:

Felicity looked amazing in that Black dress. I also loved her red belt. 

I really liked that look for Felicity. 

[Delphi]

During the press conference,  what bothered me on rewatch was Ruve saying,  "these so called vigilantes! "  

Really?  "So called heroes", sure.   But they are without a doubt legitimate vigilantes. 

[Tallis]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

The wardrobe dept also deserves major props for the outfits in the 2nd Delicity scene. Dig look insanely handsome in that grey sweater ensemble and Felicity looked amazing in that Black dress. I also loved her red belt. Wardrobe was really great last night.

I think the red belt was used in early season 3 as well, it looked better here.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

There were no flashbacks, just visions from an alternate reality.... It was Beth Schwartz's & Wendy Mercles attempt at fanfiction.

If they were not figments of LL's dead imagination in the morgue ~ then my other theory is that they were fictional reenactments of Laurel's Diary. You know like they do in crime shows. There was nothing tangible to indicate that they events that unfolded in the past actually ever occurred. It's a shame that even in the afterlife, OQ still runs away from LL, no peace for her even in the afterlife. 

The only concrete evidence we have is LL's picture back in her possession, not OQ's. At this point, Psycho-obsessed LL probably just stole her photo back from OQ and that's how it wound up in her wallet.

 

WTF. No medical professional would let Laurel's arms just dangle there like that off the side of the bed after she died. I don't like Laurel but I seriously side-eyed that but hard. Wouldn't they have taken out the IV and placed her arms properly on the bed.I hate to say it and I'll get yelled at, but this makes me wonder if Laurel is not dead and has been locked away in some mental institution and her memories are being messed with by that 'Unusually Helpful Doctor That Seems TOO Helpful" or it's a scheme between Oliver and the Unusually Helpful Doctor to squirrel Laurel into hiding. And they needed to convince Quentin, Dinah and the rest of the world that Laurel is really dead so Quentin sees her just dangling half off the bed and then wouldn't they put the cloth back over her head when they put her back in the freezer?

This whole thing is so weird and disjointed. I don't get it.

I'M SORRY I CAN'T HELP IT! I don't trust this. LOL

Edited April 28, 2016 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[Midnight Lullaby]

We saw her corpse in the obituary, LOL.

[catrox14]

Did we see her corpse in the coffin? I legit don't remember.

I am seriously though wondering how they could treat her body that way after death. That's not part of my conspiracy theory LOL, 

[Starfish35]

11 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

We saw her corpse in the obituary, LOL.

Do you mean mortuary?

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Do you mean mortuary?

Yes! Sorry, I didn't even notice the mistake. Lol

[Morrigan2575]

Krissy still can't act...seriously CW stop with the crap actresses that have the same look.

I found Baby Canary annoyingbut had to laugh at the fact that she was already better with that stupid device than LL and didn't look like she was taking a giant dump every time she used it 

I figured out about half way through the episode that Baby Canary is going to turn out to ne Starling from nu52 BoP. U was so excited by my realization that I missed the whole Flashback kiss debacle.  I do have to laugh at all the fans in denial pre episode...no that's a dream, no that's pre Gambit, they're not going to practically screw on Tommy's Grave. Yes, yes they did.

 

If i didn't already hate O/L and LL as a character i would after this. Those two were selfish little shits and Tommy deserved so much better than having them as friends.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yes! Sorry, I didn't even notice the mistake. Lol

Yes, we did. The body is no sign of actual death.Don't you people watch Sherlock! LOL I'm mostly kidding but there is a teensy little part of me that feels like this whole thing is weird. Oliver was weird, the doctor was weird. SORRY!

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, we did. The body is no sign of actual death.Don't you people watch Sherlock! LOL I'm mostly kidding but there is a teensy little part of me that feels like this whole thing is weird. Oliver was weird, the doctor was weird. SORRY!

Oliver wasn't weird, he was thanking his good star they didn't have zombie Laurel running around the streets, LOL.

And yes, I watch Sherlock but you can't make a serious comparison between that and Arrow, poor Sherlock.

[SmallScreenDiva]

6 hours ago, hm018 said:

GODDAMN! Petition for more jeans!Felicity ;)

I understand the phone is there so Felicity can get a call later or get a notification (I honestly can't remember, the booty is making all memories hazy) but DANG, GIRL, it just really draws the eye. I commend Oliver for managing to utter anything other than gibberish.

[nksarmi]

41 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Krissy still can't act...seriously CW stop with the crap actresses that have the same look.

I found Baby Canary annoyingbut had to laugh at the fact that she was already better with that stupid device than LL and didn't look like she was taking a giant dump every time she used it 

I figured out about half way through the episode that Baby Canary is going to turn out to ne Starling from nu52 BoP. U was so excited by my realization that I missed the whole Flashback kiss debacle.  I do have to laugh at all the fans in denial pre episode...no that's a dream, no that's pre Gambit, they're not going to practically screw on Tommy's Grave. Yes, yes they did.

 

If i didn't already hate O/L and LL as a character i would after this. Those two were selfish little shits and Tommy deserved so much better than having them as friends.

I was one of the fans in denial. I have been just so very wrong in regards to Laurel at every turn - so why stop now!?!?

I wonder if Baby Canary being "better" with the collar was supposed to be because she was using it at a lethal level? Oh and while she didn't look like she was taking a dumb - she did remind me of Dawn screaming on Buffy so yea - didn't help.

[AudienceofOne]

Baby Canary's collar was upgraded to work with her vocal chords and to increase the range and pitch. Who did this? We never find out and nobody seemed particularly interested in it either. Even though this person improved Cisco's work and is therefore presumably more capable than Cisco. I actually found that person to be more interesting than the awful Baby Canary but they seem to have come from exposition land and have now sailed back home again. They'll presumably be back when a writer gets told by a producer their script contradicts continuity and they have to throw in a line to explain it.

[tarotx]

Maybe it will be Felicity's father? I know he's not tech but someone did it and it seems that it might be something that might be done via a computer. I mean Curtis was doing stuff with computer and the bees...

Edited April 28, 2016 by tarotx

[Mellowyellow]

Ok so I went a little nuts when the forum went down because I couldn't get spoilers from you guys so I watched everything from Broken Hearts to this episode  (albeit at top speed). 

I don't have a problem with the whole O/L thing because I've watched many Korean tragedies in my time.  To to me it felt like Oliver never loved her enough. Just like she never loved Tommy enough. She was just never that person for him and so he bailed again after the flashback kiss.

I also thought it was an interesting contrast to the Broken Hearts episode where at the end Felicity left him and he said something like "oh but you can still marry me" and then telling her she can't be sure that he won't turn over a new leaf. He was wheeling and dealing with her and was desperate for her to marry him.  He was essentially trying to chase Felicity into marriage like Laurel was chasing him at every opportunity.

Whilst it was totally sh@tty of them to kiss and plan the future one week after Tommy's death, I think it's very consistent with what Laurel had wanted her whole life and ties in with her telling Oliver he was the love of her life.  He was.  It's not rational but you can't help who you love.  Just like he could never really love her back that way but Felicity is the love of his life. 

[BkWurm1]

Still working my way through the posts but due to my Previously withdrawals, I wrote up my initial reaction last night. So forgive me if I'm echoing others.  This may be a little long. 

It was over all, a good episode.  Baby Canary was completely random and it’s absurd that they offered zero explanation for her skill level or her tech tweak or how she’s supporting herself or even why the POLICE that showed up after GA (Malcolm) and BC saved Oliver and Co from DD.  Are they really trying to tell me that the police just turned around and left and didn’t search the place or arrest anyone else that was aiding in the kidnapping and MURDER of people in cells?

Maybe it’s as simple as Evelyn Sharp having gotten loose when all the DD drones got loose and she just took off rather than stick around to be saved…which case would mean they didn’t fail her at all.  It seems pretty clear that she’s been tossed out as a lure for the eyeballs that need some kind of BC in the story even if her presence makes no sense at this point.

 

So I guess Alex didn’t take that job with Felicity’s company.  I enjoyed the beard but having a hard time caring about him.  Still, it would hurt Thea if he died so I guess I should care a little.

 

Speaking of caring a little.  I felt for Quentin and for Dinah but I teared up more over Tommy’s funeral. 

 

Odd that neither O or L seemed that weighed down by any guilt over having been together.  Oliver had his guilt over Tommy’s death but they both seemed hunky dory with each other.  (Side note.  I don’t think skinny jeans were in fashion at the end of season one.  Took me out of the scene...or maybe I was looking for an excuse to get out of it? ) 

 

I was ok with Oliver and Laurel remembering Tommy together but the tone seemed off because of the lack of angst.  I guess I could tell myself he sounded so false and off in that fireside scene because he was again wearing that mask of Ollie.  He was pretty true to character that the second Laurel started planning for their future, he ran like the wind. At least we now understand why he had to “die” in season three.  He activated his own death curse. 

 

There’s a petty part of me that hates that based on what Oliver said at the funeral that people that don’t really know them would think that Oliver and Laurel had just proclaimed their love for each other only for it to be lost in the same moment.  I know what he meant and anyone that REALLY knows him would as well, but the casual ear (that really doesn’t exist in the viewing audience) would be misled.  I suppose they threw a bone to the video makers.  They can loop the audio to their heart’s content.   

 

We had some really lovely Diggle and Felicity scenes.  And the line we were worried about with the secret kid came off funny.  It was wonderful seeing them offer support to each other.  I thought they showed Felicity’s guilt very naturally.  When she didn’t correct John the first time that he wasn’t at fault and said she didn’t know, she wasn’t there, I knew exactly where her mind was going and the hurt felt honest. 

 

So did Alex Kingston’s reaction.  She had a small part and it was pretty subtle, but her hope replaced by pained reality was really well done.  As was pretty much all PB did. 

 

Side note – how weird would it be to play your character’s corpse? Both KC and CL have that in common. Nice to have small talk topics.   

 

I’m still of the opinion that they basically knew they wanted Laurel in the grave whether it was official or not, but they did misjudge the tone of the episode leading to the grave and limo scenes.  That anger and bitterness at the end just wasn’t there at the funeral.  I can fanwank that O & F just both moved on to anger stage of grief at that same time but it would have been nice to understand what triggered the transition from thinking of living up to Laurel’s definition of a hero (which emphatically per this episode did not include killing anyone) to both Oliver and Felicity vowing they needed DD killed.  I can believe the sentiments, but I don’t see how they got there from where the episode had built.   

 

Next week looks like too much torture but I’m sure there will be more to like that didn’t make the preview.  Diggle is the safe character to focus on right now.  All and all, a well crafted episode as long as you assume flash back stuff involved Oliver pretending and Laurel hopped up on mood stabilizers. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by BkWurm1
Clarity and wanted to see the new edit function. I like this feature.

[foreverevolving]

36 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Whilst it was totally sh@tty of them to kiss and plan the future one week after Tommy's death, I think it's very consistent with what Laurel had wanted her whole life and ties in with her telling Oliver he was the love of her life.  He was.  It's not rational but you can't help who you love.  Just like he could never really love her back that way but Felicity is the love of his life. 

I honestly don't believe Laurel ever truly loved Oliver, she loved the idea of him, the idea of them together, of what she thought their life will be. If she had truly loved him and understood him she would not have dared to utter "our future" once again- to the same man who ran away for a sexy boat cruise with her sister, while still dating her- Laurel lived in her own little fantasy world, I truly now believe she had crazy stalker syndrom ala Cupid.

[ottoDbusdriver]

They really made good use of the wig Paul Blackthorne had on LoT last week to make it look like the past -- because he was wearing the same wig again this episode during the heavily retconned flashbacks.

Wait a tick -- Barry has his powers back -- WTF ?  Way to go Berlanti and crew, you managed to screw up the continuity between Flash, Arrow and Supergirl -- well done.

ETA:

Quote

Baby Canary's collar was upgraded to work with her vocal chords and to increase the range and pitch. Who did this? We never find out and nobody seemed particularly interested in it either. Even though this person improved Cisco's work and is therefore presumably more capable than Cisco. I actually found that person to be more interesting than the awful Baby Canary but they seem to have come from exposition land and have now sailed back home again. They'll presumably be back when a writer gets told by a producer their script contradicts continuity and they have to throw in a line to explain it.

How did Baby Canary know that Black Canary was in the hospital in the first place to steal the vocal ?  They basically yadda yadda-ed who Baby Canary was, how she stole the vocal device, how she modified the vocal device, how she modified BC's costume since Baby Canary was shorter than Laurel Lance, what her motives were, or where she got her combat training from.  And then they just let her wander away.  That was it.  Where did she go ?

Edited April 29, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

How did Baby Canary know that Black Canary was in the hospital in the first place to steal the vocal ?  They basically yadda yadda-ed who Baby Canary was, how she stole the vocal device, what her motives were, where she got her training from.  And they just let her wander away.  That was it.  Where did she go ?

From what I understood Evelyn was a frequent visitor to the ER, possibly because of the cult, possibly because after breaking out in 409 she started being a poor man's vigilante.  Sounds like she was there when GA brought BC in, followed them around the hospital and then stole the collar after LL died.  She was at the facility when GA/BC broke Felicity/Dig/Thea out so she knew who the were and how the device worked. 

[Xenith22]

Regarding the legacy of Black Canary.  First of all the general public does not know about the change between the Canary and Black Canary.  So the first thing people heard about Canary were the rumors/whispers of her defending women in the slums.   Now Sara was quite good at working from the shadows.  So not a lot of people ever really saw her. Even during Slade's siege of the city I believe most of her fighting was not done in view of any members of the public.

Which is why I believe the first major public appearance of Canary was actually Laurel during Brick's reign of terror.  At that time it was the Black Canary (along with Arsenal) who initially stood in front and lead the charge against Brick to take back the city.  (Sure she did not accomplish much during the actual fight, but the people there were probably too busy fighting for their own lives to notice).

After that she ran with the Arrow for a bit after his return, although again everything she was involved in happened with no one around.  After the death of the Arrow in prison she was next publicly seen fighting and preventing one of Ra's minions from activating his bio weapon amidst a fleeing crowd.  Then came her showing up to aid in the evacuation of the train station before the Ghosts could blow it up.  I think it's fair to say she was a pretty established hero at this point because all of this stuff would have been reported by the media and gotten around by word of mouth.

That's not even counting the various villains that Team Arrow took down, which I'm sure Captain Lance upon adapting his pro-vigilante stance made sure that BC received her fair amount of credit for.   Because you need to keep in mind that the general public did not often get to witness these things going down.  So they were not privy to how often Laurel's BC was actually ineffective/useless or got her butt handed to her.  For that matter they did not even get to witness the team dynamic.  For all they knew she was an equal partner to the Green Arrow as absurd as that may sound to us TV viewers who got to see everything.

So yeah for at least a year (going on two if you count the rumors during Sara's tenure) the Black Canary did have an established rep as a hero to the general populus of the city.  She may have even been a symbol of girl power.   Someone up thread joked about how Evelyn bought at duplicate of her costume at an S&M shop, that may not be too far off.  I would not be surprised if Arrow/Green Arrow and Black Canary costumes were not actually mass produced and sold at various stores as icons of the city.  Now did Laurel actually warrant this status?  Certainly not, but with that said Laurel as Black Canary did try to do the right thing  (When she started down the vigilate path does not count for this since she was not doing it as BC).  She put on the mask risking her life night after night to save others despite minimal training.  She also managed to do this without ever killing unlike the Arrow. (So like Green Arrow she was an easier hero for the public to endorse).  And while it was not often she did have her occasional moments where she legitimately helped to save the day.  So yes, Evelyn putting on the mask and publicly assaulting and attempting to murder seemingly innocent (to the public) people was certainly counter to the image of BC that Laurel had established.

 Not to mention that the very idea of the Black Canary going rogue like that reflected badly on all of Team Arrow and would serve to make it more difficult for the citizens of the city to ever fully trust them lest they suddenly turn on the city too.  So defending what BC stood for was important not just to honor Laurel but for the future of Team Arrow.

------

Quote

5. Wow, the difference between the number of attendees at Tommy's funeral versus Laurel's was….pretty stark. Especially given that Tommy's funeral presumably happened just a few days after a significant section of the city was destroyed, which presumably would have kept a few people busy. I'd let this go except for one factor: given that Oliver specifically wanted everyone to know Laurel's identity, why didn't he make sure that more people – and in particular, the reporters – were there? I realize the camera wanted to frame Quentin and Donna without people behind them, but they had room on the side and the extras were presumably still milling around, so, odd.

Honestly I'm not sure why Ruve wasn't there which would have ensured plenty of press.  I mean think about it, she was using Laurel's death as the primary figurehead of her anti-vigilante campaign?   Would it not have made sense for her to be there with the press to further emphasize it?  Not to mention the bonus that her presence would have likely enraged Team Arrow increasing the chance of them doing something stupid to further her campaign.

Baby Canary's collar was upgraded to work with her vocal chords and to increase the range and pitch. Who did this? We never find out and nobody seemed particularly interested in it either. Even though this person improved Cisco's work and is therefore presumably more capable than Cisco.

Meh, for being upgraded Thea still recovered from it absurdly quick...TWICE.

Quote

And Oh shit they are totally going to ruin another bird too

The main DC comics division already did that when they took what was deemed the breakout character of the Nu52, had her turn traitor and then vanish without explanation never to be seen or mentioned again.  Seemed appropriate that a popular character the TV series badly mishandled was replaced by a popular character that the comics badly mishandled.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Xenith22

[AyChihuahua]

Quote

She put on the mask risking her life night after night to save others despite minimal training.  She also managed to do this without ever killing unlike the Arrow. 

Not for lack of trying on several occasions.

[apinknightmare]

10 hours ago, Xenith22 said:

She also managed to do this without ever killing unlike the Arrow. 

ETA: misunderstood!

Edited April 29, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Angel12d]

So this was all to help save Sara's legacy really? Or at least the one she started. Okay cool. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

11 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I'll take Ridiculously Unfair Comparisons for $200 please, Alex! Oliver returned from 5 years of being tortured/having to do whatever to stay alive on a mission his father set him on while surviving with PTSD. Laurel jumped in after Oliver had already found his way, onto a team where there was an established way of doing things - the biggest of all those established things was: they do not kill. 

And you, uh, realize that Laurel did actually want to kill Komodo and it was Oliver - the murderous Arrow - who actually stopped her, right?

She also tried to kill Malcolm. The fact that she SUCKS at her job (jobs, actually) doesn't negate her very sincere effort.

[AudienceofOne]

On the subject of the public image thing, one thing that starkly stood out as missing in this episode to me was the reaction to Oliver's announcement that Laurel was the Canary.

With so much of the episode devoted to how the public feels about the vigilantes and to the way Ruve's campaign was playing in the media, I thought Oliver's "revelation" was strangely dealt with.

He outs Laurel as the Canary at her funeral with no media presence. Why wouldn't he throw a press conference? And there's no subsequent news bulletins or "breaking news" or anything to show that the media even picked this up at all. For all we know, he revealed the secret to the 10 people who were there at the gravesite and nobody else knows. What does the media think of this? What does the public think of it? He is implying also that the Mayor is lying because she said Black Canary killed Laurel. So where's the reaction to that?

[AudienceofOne]

The whole purpose of outing her was about rescuing her public image but he did it in a way that apparently had no impact on her public image at all

[Delphi]

Well,  reaction would vary to be honest.   But if you take the doctor, people seem to be aware of what good work Black Canary was doing. 

 

Then there is also the fact that despite dropping out a vast amount of the city still wanted Oliver for mayor.  I'd imagine they'd take his word for it. 

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, Laurel also killed the absolute hell out of that cop, who was pretending to be the man in the skull mask. She shot him like eight times.

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, AyChihuahua said:

Oh, Laurel also killed the absolute hell out of that cop, who was pretending to be the man in the skull mask. She shot him like eight times.

No one would remember this because Laurel never even had a reaction to taking a life... Which is disturbing in and of itself... 

[AyChihuahua]

Well, she felt even MORE sorry for herself. But that may have been more about being fired than killing a dude.

[EmeraldArcher]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I'll take Ridiculously Unfair Comparisons for $200 please, Alex! Oliver returned from 5 years of being tortured/having to do whatever to stay alive on a mission his father set him on while surviving with PTSD. Laurel jumped in after Oliver had already found his way, onto a team where there was an established way of doing things - the biggest of all those established things was: they do not kill. 

And you, uh, realize that Laurel did actually want to kill Komodo and it was Oliver - the murderous Arrow - who actually stopped her, right?

I think @Xenith22's point has been misunderstood here.  Her lengthy observation about LL as BC was about the Starling/Star City's public perception of the Black Canary, which would have started with the rumors of the elusive woman in black (Sara) who took down bad guys, and included the few very public heroics of LL as BC actually witnessed by the general population: the uprising with Brick, the LoA attack on the city, the search for the bomb at the train station, etc.  @Xenith22 pointed out there was a huge difference between what the public saw in BC during those events (i.e., heroism) and what we TV viewers saw of her incompetence in hundreds of SC warehouses (or just one warehouse, 100s of times), or her dangerous interference on a team that didn't want her, or her willingness to beat up men in hospital beds.  

No unfair comparison was being made between Oliver and LL, and @Xenith22 differentiated between the Arrow (who killed people and who "died" as far as the public knew) and the Green Arrow, whose no-kill stance made him an easier character to rally behind. The main point was that SC people believed in BC as a hero because that's all they saw, and it was imperative for that to be protected not just for the BC's legacy, but also to mitigate any perception that these heroes might go rogue, a la Baby Canary.

[BkWurm1]

12 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Did Diggle kill the limo driver when he confronted the mayor?  A guy who may not have been one of Darhk's evil minions?  Along with smacking around an unarmed person that really, really makes him look bad.  It's a good thing the Star City police are incompetent.

Does Diggle have a magic gun that can switch between green darts (just realized the connection to the Green Arrow this second) and bullets? 

I really don't think that Diggle planned on killing Ruve.  He wanted her to take a message to her husband, not BE the message to her husband.  We know that she's as bad or worse than Dahrk but does he?  I honestly can't recall. 

I wanted to love that scene but there were some clunky lines by Oliver and some clunky acting by DR.  Not all of it. Most of it was well done but the bad parts were particularly bad. 

 

12 hours ago, kirkola said:

In the opening scene where Quentin is pulling himself back up after the brilliant crash (acting) the episode prior, you see the Arrow club standing behind Oliver and a brunette teen streak through .  It was so obviously a Checkov's gun moment that it took me completely out of the scene.  Then a few minutes later, I get the "aha" moment when Baby Canary showed up as a blond in costume and with the collar.  It was just so obvious she'd been in the earlier scene and must have stolen the Canary Cry then.

What took me out of the scene was that she was walking down the hallway, coming from the direction behind them meaning that she couldn't have gone into Laurel's room at that point so (she just kept going) so either she stole it earlier or later and the time we see her she was just taking a casual stroll? 

12 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

Lastly, please let me never have to watch this show again without you lovely people. I know the Mods were happy to get a break, but I missed you all.

This sooooo much.  It was such a let down after the episode was over.  Made me do odd things like get in a fight with someone on Ksite about NCIS. 

11 hours ago, hogwash said:

Did the flashback at Laurel's apt feel like the Ghost of Lauriver Yet to Come to anyone else?  A weird glimpse at what could've been the start of Laurel becoming the Black Canary alongside Oliver becoming the Green Arrow if Oliver hadn't secretly been a vigilante/spree killer who had just failed horribly at his life's mission... 

I ran into too many laments about how this just proved that the show could have easily written Oliver and Laurel really good scenes if only the show runners hadn't given in to pandering  - which totally ignores that both Laurel and Oliver had to act totally out of character for where their characters were at the end of season one and start of season two and ignore that part where Oliver is still lying to Laurel about every important aspect of who he was as a person.  And that Laurel really didn't know him at all.   

11 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Was Baby BC's canary cry better? Would that be another FU to KC? Sara's Canary bombs were more effective and now Baby BC improved the Canary collar, making both of them better than Laurel's BC. 

It felt that way to me. 

 

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, was Oliver actually flying the plane? Or was he a passenger and was going to parachute out?

It really looked like he was flying it alone.  He was in the cockpit all by his lonesome. Did we ever hear Diggle and Felicity's plan for getting off the island in season 2? 

 

7 hours ago, kismet said:

The wardrobe dept also deserves major props for the outfits in the 2nd Delicity scene. Dig look insanely handsome in that grey sweater ensemble and Felicity looked amazing in that Black dress. I also loved her red belt. Wardrobe was really great last night.

I'm taking mega points away for the sweater.  It looked like they sewed on a hundred of Nana's clip on earrings.  I was so distracted I never even noticed Felicity was wearing jeans.  Tsk, tsk. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

30 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I think @Xenith22's point has been misunderstood here. 

It was. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I really enjoyed Nyssa in this episode. I want her to be a regular. 

Paul Black killed it, though I wish they would have shown his breakdown instead of giving us a closeup of Oliver watching it. David Ramsey did a great job, too, even despite the odd writing that he was given as Diggle. I still think it would have been nice for them to acknowledge that it was Ollie primarily who first encouraged Dig to trust Andy, even if he later tried to convince him not to trust him. Kind of a big oversight, imo.

As for Ollie's big plan, I have an idea. Instead of doing what the team always does, and confront the Big Bad and extemporize before beating him up, the next time they find him? Shoot him in the head with an arrow from a rooftop sniping position hundreds of yards away. He's an archer and should easily be able to make the shot. I doubt even Dahrk's magic would protect him from something he couldn't see. Unless, not dramatic enough for the writers. lol

[Cthulhudrew]

3 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

They really made good use of the wig Paul Blackthorne had on LoT last week to make it look like the past -- because he was wearing the same wig again this episode during the heavily retconned flashbacks.

That is probably the first decent wig they've ever had on this show in 4 seasons.

[SmallScreenDiva]

So Oliver shoots his arrow into the dome and then ... crashes into the glass? Wouldn't that then break the connection and make him fall? Why am I even asking this when Oliver has shot at the moon before and was able to swing away, LOL!

[wonderwall]

I just have to say... It's been 2 episodes so far with minimal Felicity...

I want this Felicity show everyone is talking about. Where is it?!

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

So Oliver shoots his arrow into the dome and then ... crashes into the glass? Wouldn't that then break the connection and make him fall? Why am I even asking this when Oliver has shot at the moon before and was able to swing away, LOL!

He shot *through* the glass and INTO THE MOON. 

[statsgirl]

It looked to me like he shot it right at the middle of the dome, which was solid rather than all the glass.  Or maybe I'm feeling charitable for a scene where Oliver isn't kissing Laurel or her image.

(I'm having trouble navigating the new site so apologies if this looks weird.)

Because I was taught that to give credit is more important than actual thought, I need to give Matt Mitovich at TV Line credit for catching that Evelyn went after Alex because she accused him of working for Darhk but she didn't go after any other the other people working for Ruve.  That suggests to me that she saw Alex at Reddington when she was being held there. Who knows, Alex may finally become interesting.

The worst part of the episode for me was the retcon of Oliver and Laurel. Did they do it to make Laurel fans feel better?  Because getting over Tommy in one week to hook up with Oliver again did her no favors at all.

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

If you're curious about the comics, you can find the scans here:

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/140299236173/luvsumtv-reblogged-your-post-oliverdant-i

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/143532231593/retcon-evidence

Ok.  They said the 1.5 comic was canon and now we have these flashbacks so I am going to attempt to put them together so that both are true.   

The comics said Oliver did Tommy's eulogy (and it's way better than Laurel's) but we see Laurel do it because Oliver couldn't.  BUT we see that Oliver IS at the gravesite.  So in order to make both true, First the FB happens but then before everyone leaves, Oliver shows up just long enough to speak (because Tommy deserved better than Laurel's weak send off) and then immediately takes off probably with Laurel wanting him to talk to her and open up.

Cut to the first scene at Laurel's apartment in the hallway.  Sometime that night or the next day, Oliver shows up.  But he still can't talk (the eulogy was different since it was a prepared speech) so he leaves. But a week later they are cozying up by a fire.  Now  In the comics there is a scene that has to come first where Oliver comes to see Laurel but she won't see anyone (per her dad) and is spiraling. Part of my way of rationalizing of the Laurel in the comics versus the Laurel in the Flashbacks is to suggest that Laurel is all over the place mood wise.  Major ups and downs. (Thea probably slipped her something to help but when the crash comes it comes hard. )

So after Oliver and Quentin have their conversation, Oliver leaves but then Laurel finds out that Oliver came by and having popped some happy pills, seems much better so Quentin goes home and Laurel immediately gets Oliver to come over.  So Oliver does because he's worried about her spiraling per her dad and at first he's just so grateful she seems better he's happy to concentrate on the good old days with Tommy and for a moment gets caught up in the past.  Only then Laurel takes it too far (and now is where I blame the happy pills for making her deluded) and Oliver can't pretend anymore.  He leaves.

Cut to the conversation Oliver has with Diggle (whose calls he's been avoiding).  Oliver has decided he has to leave and that he's no good to anyone.  So he slips his Dear Jane letter under Laurel's door (per the flashback) and heads to the airport to hop a plane to anywhere (per the comic) and then either makes arrangements when he gets somewhere or just changes his mind and arranges to get the seaplane and fly it to the island (per the flashback).

There.  It all works. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

Just watched it.  

Is it me, or was the whole thing very choppily edited/directed?  There was several moments that felt like they would have had more emotional resonance if they hadn't been rushed though.

Otherwise, yeah.  It wasn't a great episode, but I don't know that I would have hated it if it wasn't for the Lauriver retcon.  It would have been far more powerful to have Quention having memories of his daughter throughout, and having to come to grips with her being gone, or as someone else said, have each of the team having their own memories of her.  That would have felt far more fitting than this.  

And I am not a fan of Baby Canary.  The actress did not impress me at all.  Let's have no more of that.  The team does not need a Scrappy, as someone else said.

[looptab]

4 hours ago, wonderwall said:

No one would remember this because Laurel never even had a reaction to taking a life... Which is disturbing in and of itself... 

She was too excited about the future to have a reaction to that. .

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I ran into too many laments about how this just proved that the show could have easily written Oliver and Laurel really good scenes if only the show runners hadn't given in to pandering  - which totally ignores that both Laurel and Oliver had to act totally out of character for where their characters were at the end of season one and start of season two and ignore that part where Oliver is still lying to Laurel about every important aspect of who he was as a person.  And that Laurel really didn't know him at all.   

In which world was that a good scene?? LOL

[doesntworkonwood]

The episode was hit and miss for me, it had some really good character moments, but the rest of it was so bad that it was bordering on hilarity. They were emphasizing that Laurel is dead and never coming back, whilst completely shitting on her character more (if that was even possible after the last episode). It just goes to show how bad of a character she is, if you can't even write them well when they're not there, they shouldn't have been written in the first place. 

I loved the scenes with Diggle and Felicity, DR and EBR work so well together and I'm hoping with this... pruning of the team, we'll get to see a lot more of it. I loved Oliver in this episode (except for all of the WWLD, but to be fair Oliver does have a habit of ignoring the negatives of the people he quite liked after they die), it just goes to show how much he's grown. His scene with Felicity was fantastic, even if I was distracted by the awful christmas jumper they put on Felicity. 

I didn't like Baby Canary, I thought that the acting was awful and the storyline fell so flat to me. I hope never to see her again, but I fear that's not the case. 

[doesntworkonwood]

I just realised why this episode didn't work for me (and a lot of other people). It worked on a quite weird principle. 

In order to have the emotional impact that this episode was supposed to to, I had to be invested in Laurel and her relationships to other people. But if I was invested in Laurel and her relationships, I would have been annoyed because this episode essentially shat on Laurel's most important relationship (with Tommy) and completely ignored Laurels other major relationships (with Quinten and Sara). 

There was literally no way this episode could have achieved what it wanted to. 

[looptab]

Best part is that those damn FBs didn't even serve the one certain purpose of their existence, i.e. give a somewhat acceptable reason why the Picture of Doom was in Laurel's possession, and why she got so attached to it she carried it with her everywhere. I mean, he just left it  there with his letter, without an explanation of what it signified to him. Even assuming all that was implied - that she didn't need an explanation, but just knew that that was the photo she gave him before he left, and that it survived 5 years of Hell made it something meaningful in and on itself - it still doesn't quite match with what she said in the previous episode - "It reminded me of less complicated times". So, which were these uncomplicated  times? When he was about to cheat on you with your sister, or when you were planning a future with him right after your ex died? Uncomplicated, yeah.

It's easier for me to believe that she just liked how she looked in the photo and decided to carry it with her always and forever.

Edited April 29, 2016 by looptab