S04.E19: Canary Cry

[bijoux]

17 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I'm sorry for this, but the forum is only allowing me to post inside a quote and there doesn't seem to be a way to remove it if I ever want to post in this thread again.

[bijoux]

16 hours ago, hm018 said:

GODDAMN! Petition for more jeans!Felicity ;)

I know people are focusing on her butt, but look at that thigh flexing. It really makes me want to work out. Maybe she and Oliver can hold a flex off during slow nights in the lair. His pecs vs. her quads.

10 hours ago, Tallis said:

I think the red belt was used in early season 3 as well, it looked better here.

I don't know about season 3, but it was used in 210 Blast Radius. I may have watched those scenes a few times.

I had more substantial things to say about this episode but the forum has been soundly kicking my butt and I forgot it all.

[kismet]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

WTF. No medical professional would let Laurel's arms just dangle there like that off the side of the bed after she died. I don't like Laurel but I seriously side-eyed that but hard. Wouldn't they have taken out the IV and placed her arms properly on the bed.I hate to say it and I'll get yelled at, but this makes me wonder if Laurel is not dead and has been locked away in some mental institution and her memories are being messed with by that 'Unusually Helpful Doctor That Seems TOO Helpful" or it's a scheme between Oliver and the Unusually Helpful Doctor to squirrel Laurel into hiding. And they needed to convince Quentin, Dinah and the rest of the world that Laurel is really dead so Quentin sees her just dangling half off the bed and then wouldn't they put the cloth back over her head when they put her back in the freezer?

This whole thing is so weird and disjointed. I don't get it.

I'M SORRY I CAN'T HELP IT! I don't trust this. LOL

I honestly can't remember what her arms looked like and frankly don't want to rewatch it. But I do know when people die in my hospital, we often leave IVs & any catheters in them, especially if they are going to have an autopsy done. Whatever is in them at time of death goes to the morgue still in them - the funeral home is the one that then removes the catheters. And if they have morgue drawers, I'm not sure they need to be covered with sheets.

I truly believe Dinah Laurel Lance is DEAD to the Deadest Degree. Even though I will admit there was some shady behavior between OQ & the doctor, I still don't think that changes the fact that she is dead & the show has destroyed all means to bring her back to life. Perhaps the BC will return at sometime, but Laurel Lance is DEAD.  I just happen to think her alternate reality is what the flashbacks were, since there is no way they actually happened. Perhaps being stabbed by DD allows for some weird AU postmortem dreaming for the first few hours or so.

[apinknightmare]

What was shady about Oliver & the doctor's behavior? 

[looptab]

Totally unrelated, but since we're speaking of the doctor, I was surprised that she knew Oliver was GA. I assume she knew when she saw Oliver standing there outside her room without anyone calling him? Still, it's something they don't usually do.

Rewatching the Olicity scenes, I was puzzled at first during the first scene of the Team in the bunker, (I couldn't make sense of that "I didn't know.." " I called for the team", going by the comic preview). But Felicity actually says, "You called for the team". So, yeah, she was reaffirming her place on the team. Nice.

[Angel12d]

The problem with the flashbacks was literally created in the previous episode. We had no idea that Laurel had her picture back this whole time...until the moment before she died. So they created this whole mess that needed clearing up within 2 episodes. I don't know about anyone else but I could have done without knowing that Laurel had held onto a picture of herself for 2 plus years. It's for that reason alone they had to create a situation where O/L were together again so he could give back the picture, but in doing so were completely disrespectful to Tommy so soon after he died.

What was the point in any of it? It added nothing and ended up making O/L look like trasholes and actually made me dislike Laurel even more. First they gave her this unrequited love confession before she died which yeah, you can't help who you love but yikes it makes her look pathetic pining for a man who treated her like shit and clearly didn't want her. And then they make her even worse by kissing Oliver one week after Tommy was buried. A little bit of devastation wouldn't have gone amiss, Laurel. (I should add that I think just as badly of Oliver in this but he wasn't the one who had a romantic relationship with him.)

I don't understand how they can mess up so badly. Well, I do because they've always bent over backwards to make Lauriver fit and these flashbacks were no different. Thank god they don't have to write for Laurel anymore because they clearly can't. At all. Or maybe it's just Lauriver that's the problem. Who knows?

Edited April 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, looptab said:

Rewatching the Olicity scenes, I was puzzled at first during the first scene of the Team in the bunker, (I couldn't make sense of that "I didn't know.." " I called for the team", going by the comic preview). But Felicity actually says, "You called for the team". So, yeah, she was reaffirming her place on the team. Nice.

I didn't even catch that until I saw people pointing it out online. I wonder who called her then. I'm actuallyy leaning more towards Thea given Dig's state of mind in this episode. But yeah, it is really nice, Felicity quietly reaffirming her place on the team.

Lance not blaming himself was a welcome surprise. I didn't expect that they would give him Darhk's message, but it's not really hard to figure out given that he habitually threatened him with just that. 

[dtissagirl]

I don't really have anything to say about the content of this episode -- I spent the episode giggling, mostly --  but the directing and editing in this one was some of the worst I've ever seen. There was a rando shaky camera in the scene between Lance and Nyssa that I was worried about the assist camera having a stroke. The flashbacks were filmed in a way that couldn't ever decide if they were from Oliver's POV or dead Laurel's POV. Some of the scenes/takes were abruptly cut while people were still emoting. All super weird shit that Arrow *doesn't* do.

It bums me out that a woman directed it, because half of these problems could have been fixed in post, but some of it was just plain bad directing decisions in blocking.

...

And on a writing snafu of hilarity, the whole point of Laurel's death isn't to motivate anyone to do anything, but rather to find a way to resolve the island picture of doom that had been dangling over the writers room since the pilot, that had become 100% meaningless the moment they gave up on L/O as the main romantic couple, but BY GOD AND KING they decided to fix it in two episodes, basically by not caring about how it made Laurel look.

Edited April 29, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Angel12d]

Was it the director's first job or something? Because I agree, the directing (and camera work) was awful. But mostly the editing. They keep doing this though. It's like at the end of 409 when we cut away from Oliver's reaction to Felicity's injury way too soon and literally removed the emotional punch of the episode along with it. They need to sort that out because it keeps happening.

[apinknightmare]

I love the unintentional hilarity of the way they handled the picture return. 

"You're gonna go on and do great things, you're the best, never doubt my love for you, but, uh...here. Take this back."

[Angel12d]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I love the unintentional hilarity of the way they handled the picture return. 

"You're gonna go on and do great things, you're the best, never doubt my love for you, but, uh...here. Take this back."

LMAO, right? Never doubt my love to you but I gotta get on a plane and fly back to my literal hell on earth instead of being with you. Bye!

You should doubt his love for you, Laurel. YOU SHOULD.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[Midnight Lullaby]

13 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I love the unintentional hilarity of the way they handled the picture return. 

"You're gonna go on and do great things, you're the best, never doubt my love for you, but, uh...here. Take this back."

It was Oliver's version of "it's not you, it's me." LOL

Laurel really wasn't the type of person to go for a subtle break up.

[Angel12d]

I just remembered another problem I had with the O/L flashback scene by the fireplace. Oliver was talking about saving the city and Laurel said they could save it together. Um...this was long before she knew he was the Arrow so what did she think he meant? They were totally talking as if she already knew he was the vigilante. Grrrrr, so much disconnect. 

[dtissagirl]

44 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I love the unintentional hilarity of the way they handled the picture return. 

"You're gonna go on and do great things, you're the best, never doubt my love for you, but, uh...here. Take this back."

AND THEN SHE KEPT THE FUCKING PICTURE IN HER WALLET, WHAT THE SHIT, LAUREL.

Just imagine if the dying ~soulmate words scene had never happened, and Laurel had burned that pic in that last flashback. I would have cheered so hard. Alas.

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I just remembered another problem I had with the O/L flashback scene by the fireplace. Oliver was talking about saving the city and Laurel said they could save it together. Um...this was long before she knew he was the Arrow so what did she think he meant? They were totally talking as if she already knew he was the vigilante. Grrrrr, so much disconnect. 

But can't you see? Laurel's always seen the best in Oliver and in his bones. She knew deep down. Even while sniping at him and setting up the Arrow to be captured by SCPD.

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

But can't you see? Laurel's always seen the best in Oliver and in his bones. She knew deep down. Even while sniping at him and setting up the Arrow to be captured by SCPD.

It was just tough love. Hahahahaha

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I just remembered another problem I had with the O/L flashback scene by the fireplace. Oliver was talking about saving the city and Laurel said they could save it together. Um...this was long before she knew he was the Arrow so what did she think he meant? They were totally talking as if she already knew he was the vigilante. Grrrrr, so much disconnect. 

Right? He ran a bar at that point, haha. 

Unless she wanted to save the city with dollar drafts, drink specials, and sick beats. 

[looptab]

Eh, it was a bit weird, but I thought she might have thought he meant "doing good for the city" as in throwing some money around - maybe charity or somehing like Ray did at the beginning of last season. By "we can do it together" she totally meant "let's get married", though.

[AyChihuahua]

22 hours ago, hm018 said:

GODDAMN! Petition for more jeans!Felicity ;)

 

Site's being weird again, but I reposted the famous EBR ass gif to ask what is the over/under on how many takes it took to get Steve NOT staring at her ass. TBC, I am not talking trash shipping, I am talking human nature. I swear I'm a straight female, but that gif makes me wonder.

[tarotx]

9 hours ago, looptab said:

...In which world was that a good scene?? LOL

This guy has them as a pro...

[ohjoy]

12 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Paul Black killed it, though I wish they would have shown his breakdown instead of giving us a closeup of Oliver watching it.

    ^^^ THIS.

7 hours ago, bijoux said:

I know people are focusing on her butt, but look at that thigh flexing. It really makes me want to work out.

   ^^^ And (shallowly) This. Her toned thighs are more impressive to me. Time to go back to squats and lunges.

[looptab]

1 hour ago, tarotx said:

This guy has them as a pro...

I guess he has poor judgment. is entitled to his opinion.;)

Guess this time the writers got the pandering right, then. Now start pander to me, please and thank you :)

[calliope1975]

4 minutes ago, looptab said:

Guess this time the writers got the pandering right, then. Now start pander to me, please and thank you :)

Right? Where's my hot grief sex against a wall? I mean, um, team bonding or something.

[Sakura12]

Until I'm told otherwise I'm going to assume that the Doctor took out Laurel's battery and that's why she died after the surgery. 

[wonderwall]

48 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Right? Where's my hot grief sex against a wall? I mean, um, team bonding or something.

Arrow writers DO love a good parallel. They can have grief sex against a wall in the lair in front of LLs photo... But this time, Oliver STAYS with Felicity instead of leaving.

[blackwing]

I enjoyed the reactions of Oliver, Diggle, Quentin and Felicity in the wake of Laurel's death.  Good acting.

On the other hand, the Teenage Canary impostor was just embarrassing.  That actress was horrific.  There was also zero explanation of how she stole the sonic doohickey and how she modified it to be more powerful.  And then she just disappeared.  Didn't Felicity have some kind of 24 hour facial recognition software running?  How is it that she could just turn up at the funeral and not be noticed?  I really hope we don't see this actress again.

The actress who plays Ruve Dahrk is also terribly bad.  I think she was actually smirking when the Teenage Canary had a gun on her.

I also don't know what to make of Flash's cameo.  Seems like he was there just to tie in to the scene they showed us months ago.  I was expecting more out of that, that they were going to team up, but... nothing.  Not even a goodbye.  Just a "leave me alone" and then Flash speeding away.

[AyChihuahua]

The leave me alone and Flash obeying part was in the original flash-forward scene in 4.1.

[Starfish35]

Quote

The actress who plays Ruve Dahrk is also terribly bad.  I think she was actually smirking when the Teenage Canary had a gun on her.

She was smirking, but that was intentional I think.  I think she thought she was safe due to her anti-vigilante task force, and was all great fuel for her anti-vigilante campaign.

[KirkB]

Oh I'm pretty sure the smirk was intentional. Ruve and her husband both think they're pretty much unbeatable (I was going to say untouchable but Diggle already proved that wrong). It was probably also meant to show she wasn't afraid.

[nksarmi]

13 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Ok.  They said the 1.5 comic was canon and now we have these flashbacks so I am going to attempt to put them together so that both are true.   

The comics said Oliver did Tommy's eulogy (and it's way better than Laurel's) but we see Laurel do it because Oliver couldn't.  BUT we see that Oliver IS at the gravesite.  So in order to make both true, First the FB happens but then before everyone leaves, Oliver shows up just long enough to speak (because Tommy deserved better than Laurel's weak send off) and then immediately takes off probably with Laurel wanting him to talk to her and open up.

Cut to the first scene at Laurel's apartment in the hallway.  Sometime that night or the next day, Oliver shows up.  But he still can't talk (the eulogy was different since it was a prepared speech) so he leaves. But a week later they are cozying up by a fire.  Now  In the comics there is a scene that has to come first where Oliver comes to see Laurel but she won't see anyone (per her dad) and is spiraling. Part of my way of rationalizing of the Laurel in the comics versus the Laurel in the Flashbacks is to suggest that Laurel is all over the place mood wise.  Major ups and downs. (Thea probably slipped her something to help but when the crash comes it comes hard. )

So after Oliver and Quentin have their conversation, Oliver leaves but then Laurel finds out that Oliver came by and having popped some happy pills, seems much better so Quentin goes home and Laurel immediately gets Oliver to come over.  So Oliver does because he's worried about her spiraling per her dad and at first he's just so grateful she seems better he's happy to concentrate on the good old days with Tommy and for a moment gets caught up in the past.  Only then Laurel takes it too far (and now is where I blame the happy pills for making her deluded) and Oliver can't pretend anymore.  He leaves.

Cut to the conversation Oliver has with Diggle (whose calls he's been avoiding).  Oliver has decided he has to leave and that he's no good to anyone.  So he slips his Dear Jane letter under Laurel's door (per the flashback) and heads to the airport to hop a plane to anywhere (per the comic) and then either makes arrangements when he gets somewhere or just changes his mind and arranges to get the seaplane and fly it to the island (per the flashback).

There.  It all works. 

 

Drug use would explain Laurel in the flashbacks better than anything I can come up with - I'll go with it.

[kismet]

9 hours ago, bijoux said:

I don't know about season 3, but it was used in 210 Blast Radius. I may have watched those scenes a few times.

 

Thank you for that palate cleanser! :) I got to see so many of the amazing things that Arrow has stupidly discarded... the amazing green jacket, shoulder touches instead of shoulder pads, OQ subtly letting his feelings out, FS's ponytail and EBR/SA interacting without manufactured angst for plot. Oh the good ole days, when things were simpler and yet more complicatedly good. Oh and the declaration of partnership because that's what they were long before the writers began to fumble plot over characterization.

Quote

I had more substantial things to say about this episode but the forum has been soundly kicking my butt and I forgot it all.

DITTO!! However, apparently I am learning more... Holding down =ctrl right click gives you more options about what to do with quote boxes. I was able to remove the video just to save space. Now I wonder if that process will allow me to remove entire quotes in the future. Have no idea how to remove quotes on mobile devices though since there is no right click or -ctrl key :(

[Angel12d]

I liked smirking/arrogant Ruve. She thinks she's just as unstoppable as her husband so that means I'll enjoy it more when she gets knocked down a peg or two in later episodes. Yay.

[JenMD]

25 minutes ago, kismet said:

 Now I wonder if that process will allow me to remove entire quotes in the future. Have no idea how to remove quotes on mobile devices though since there is no right click or -ctrl key :(

Does this help?

Since I'm posting anyway, you guys have pretty much said it all.  I'm glad it's over.  Eye-rolling stuff.  I almost wonder how much/if stuff got cut out because the Baby Canary stuff made so little sense.  But then I remember that so often this show doesn't make sense and I figure it's just par for the course.  The repeated mentions of her being able to use the collar were weird, though.  I mean, I don't care that she was able to get it to work or how she did it, but for a second I wondered if she was going to turn out to be a long-lost Lance sibling and that's why she could use it.  I think the writers just didn't bother to think of a reason, the audience was just supposed to keep wondering if it was really Laurel.  They can be so bad at this writing thing sometimes.

[catrox14]

So Laurel and Oliver he's fine with but not Olicity. LOL OKAY. I don't get it. I'll never get or whatever.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

The actress who plays Ruve Dahrk is also terribly bad.  I think she was actually smirking when the Teenage Canary had a gun on her.

I think the smirk was a valid choice but I still think she's terribad in this part. I don't need to like her character at all, but I find some (most) of her choices dubious. If it turns out she's not 100% human by the end of the season, like maybe Darhk grew her in a cornfield or something, I won't be really surprised.

[gazebo]

Ahhh!  Laurel Lance is really dead and gone!  I liked how this episode deal with everyone's grief and mourning.  How interesting that it is Oliver who is holding up pretty well.  Diggle acting so ruthless and hitting the mayor was a shock to me.  I'm glad Ollie was there to stop it from getting worse.  Diggle would've hated himself afterwards if he actually killed someone.  Though I must say, I wouldn't mind Ruve getting killed.  I hated that smirk on her face.  Where the hell is her psychopathic husband by the way?

Quentin really broke my heart.  When he had to accept that Laurel was really gone and in his grief he doubles over and cries I can't help feeling so sorry for him.

Teenage Canary made better use of that sonic scream thingamajig more than the original Black Canary did.  How was she able to sneak into the hospital room and steal that device without anyone noticing her?  How did she know where to steal it?  How come she knows how to use it?  Have this teenager met Laurel before?  Will she ever give back the sonic scream thing back to TeamArrow?

Everyone is just blaming themselves over Laurel's death when they really shouldn't, but it does seem to be the natural thing to do because of guilt.

I had trouble with Katie Cassidy in the role because I can tell when she phones in her performance and it's pretty awful.  I don't like it when actors go on auto-pilot.  Lately though, I felt the actress stepped up her game and then Laurel Lance didn't irritate me as much.  I'm still having trouble understanding why people think she's a snowflake or something.

I want Damien Darhk to go down, but more than that, I want someone to wipe that horrible smirk off Ruve's face once and for all.

[Thundercatmary]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So Laurel and Oliver he's fine with but not Olicity. LOL OKAY. I don't get it. I'll never get or whatever.

I must have missed something, who were you talking about?

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

I must have missed something, who were you talking about?

Sorry that youtube reviewer up thread

[Cthulhudrew]

16 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Right? He ran a bar at that point, haha. 

Unless she wanted to save the city with dollar drafts, drink specials, and sick beats. 

I sense a new show in the Flarrowverse in the making. BARMAN: Saving the world, one pint at a time!

"You have failed this city. Cheers!"

[bijoux]

I almost can't believe I'm saying this, since I've stated multiple times that I think the actress is no muy bueno, but Ruve was needed at that funeral for narrative purposes.

One, Oliver would have thumbed his nose directly in her face by making it impossible for her to use BC against the team. Two, it would have made the limo scene flow better. I do believe that Felicity's attitude boiled down to her holding it together, but having Mrs Evil Stew at her friend's funeral when they can't say or do anything would have underscored that. Some cut frames, like this one, would have helped as well.

Edited April 30, 2016 by bijoux

[Lii]

So, that episode sucked. Secret Underground Corn Palace Genesis Project next week? Maybe Ruve kills Kirk's Oliver's secret kid with the power of resting bitch face and he goes all DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHRRRRRRRRRRRRRKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on them both?

[Potanical Pardon]

Are Nyssa and Evelyn/Starling joining Team Arrow? And Mr. Terrific? Felicity never really left, though Arsenal did, and I don't get exactly why his staying away made any sense.

I sense something bad coming Diggle's way. Team's too big and his story arc has got to be over as soon as the Andy storyline is done. I also just realized the writers have it in them to have Nyssa move into Laurel's apartment, train and become roomies with Starling, have Huntress return and begin a Birds of Prey side team with Felicity's Overwatch.

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I sense a new show in the Flarrowverse in the making. BARMAN: Saving the world, one pint at a time!

"You have failed this city. Cheers!"

To be honest, I'd probably give that show a chance.

[Cthulhudrew]

15 hours ago, bijoux said:

To be honest, I'd probably give that show a chance.

If only Ted Danson were younger. Alas.

[BkWurm1]

10 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

If only Ted Danson were younger. Alas.

We still have Quentin's hair from the flashbacks.  Maybe they could do something with that.  Knock a few years off Danson.

[Sunshine]

This might have been pointed out previously but I haven't seen it.  It's also coming from someone who has no use for Laurel Lance and is glad she is gone.  As delusional/inappropriate as Laurel was in planning her future with Oliver the kiss was not actually inappropriate.  They had just restarted their relationship the night before Tommy died. They reaffirmed it the morning of the "undertaking" at the Queen mansion.  Oliver did not strike me as planning his future with Laurel.  He was the one talking about Tommy.  She kept turning it around to them.

Laurel was probably in denial but losing Oliver again probably started her actual grieving.  She couldn't do anything about Oliver but she could Tommy so she changes jobs and gets a better wardrobe. She blames the Hood.  Her drastic change is not unlike Felicity's in 3.05 where she changes her hair color and clothing and basically moves on after Cooper's "death".  The drinking starts out as her coping mechanism for dealing with her guilt & pain which she was in denial about until 2.03. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

The problem is for me that now I doubt how genuine that grieving we saw in season 2 was. Because one week after the funeral she was smiling and happily planning her future with Oliver and it looked like she didn't give a damn about Tommy. So now I have to wonder what if Oliver stayed? I guess no drinking and popping pills.

Before this episode I understood her spiral in season 2 because I thought she felt guilty over Tommy's death and I could empathize with that. Now I think more than Tommy's death she was grieving her chance of a life with Oliver who went away because Tommy died and that's a display of selfishness I find awful.

I wouldn't begrudge moving on to anyone but making out and being all giddy about the future a week after you buried someone you claim to love is gross.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The problem is for me that now I doubt how genuine that grieving we saw in season 2 was. Because one week after the funeral she was smiling and happily planning her future with Oliver and it looked like she didn't give a damn about Tommy. So now I have to wonder what if Oliver stayed? I guess no drinking and popping pills.

Before this episode I understood her spiral in season 2 because I thought she felt guilty over Tommy's death and I could empathize with that. Now I think more than Tommy's death she was grieving her chance of a life with Oliver who went away because Tommy died and that's a display of selfishness I find awful.

I wouldn't begrudge moving on to anyone but making out and being all giddy about the future a week after you buried someone you claim to love is gross.

Honestly, this 'retcon' gives more legs to my ongoing headcanon that she was trying to always get Oliver back or steal Sara's life. That she was just cray cray and the show just wouldn't commit to that.

[Genki]

That would explain all the times Laurel had NOTP Face whenever she was saying something nice about Felicity or Olicity. Here I thought it was KC unable to hide her real feelings, but now I know she was actually acting Laurel's feelings for Oliver, which was making her insincere.

[AudienceofOne]

No interpretation of any scene should rest on Katie Cassidy's ability to act.