S04.E06: The Rat

[albaniantv]

Everyone wants Martha to survive, this is going to be the hardest decision the writers have to make...and we will be hanging until they make up their minds how this plays out.

[scartact]

I'm incredibly impressed by how Weisberg & Fields and their writers have created such an explosive storyline out of the rapidly unraveling Martha operation, and just how much it impacts almost everyone at multiple levels, from the Jennings' work and marriage (and to an extent even their family) to Stan and Aderholt's continued investigation (obviously tugging the metaphorical noose around P&E's necks), and even Oleg & Tatiana at the Rezidentura discussing the possibility of exfiltrating Martha. It's funny to think back to season one and how the Martha storyline was always kind of a little uncomfortable and almost black comedy-ish, yet now it's been such a seminal and intense storyline this season. It's a real payoff to the show's slow burn.

 

I'm definitely most invested in how all this will unfold in a way that most impacts Philip and Elizabeth's marriage. Thus, it makes me feel a ton of resistance to those [Philip/Clark]/Martha scenes of intimacy because I can't help but also be Elizabeth in questioning where exactly Philip is coming from and what this means, especially learning that Philip hadn't even told Elizabeth that Martha has already seen him out of his disguise. Of course, I truly believe too that Elizabeth wants this to not end up being the disaster its becoming for Philip's sake, yet I love how she still can't help but feel jealousy and betrayal. I'm not sure how much Philip currently registers it, but I keep thinking that the more Philip lets this escalate, the more the KGB should really be questioning whether or not Philip can really safely continue to do his job.

 

As for Chekhov's Ladysmith and partner-in-crime Valium, I kinda figured they wouldn't go full Chekhov, but seeing the bottle of pills and having Philip consider the gun once he finds it still made me panic. I was practically screaming to my TV, "Philip, make sure she hasn't OD'd!" and "Holy shit, let's just calm down and put down the damn gun!" I really can't see the Martha storyline ending up anywhere but with her death (which is basically the best case scenario for Philip and Elizabeth), but I'm just so excited to see how the creators will either approach and/or subvert this.

 

Random asides:

I noticed this in the last episode, but I noticed again that it seems a bit like  Paige is being dressed quite similarly to Elizabeth this season. Am I just being crazy or does anyone else notice this? In Clark's Place, her hair was all off to the side the way Elizabeth almost always places her hair, and today for some reason her outfit kinda struck me as quite Elizabeth-esque. I might just be speaking out of my ass though.

 

Does the KGB not have a wider pool of spies to pick out from that they absolutely had to ask Phil & Liz to do a Glanders Pickup pt. 2?

 

Finally, how many of you are starting to notice the ways in which Keri Russell's belly will continue to be obscured?

[chick binewski]

How I wish this show was 90 minutes every week. Like "Better Call Saul", I always feel the episodes go by so fast.

 

My one minor complaint is this season's Korean Lady. Unless Elizabeth is going to poison Martha with the tofu stew, can we get to the point of KL's role?

 

Also, bioweapons to be (allegedly) used against my country aside, I'd love to drink wine with Frank Langella and let him make me omelets. That sounds like a fabulous afternoon.  Providing he doesn't, you know, shoot me in the back of the head when I go for a refill of cabernet.

[Ina123]

No one thought to dead bolt the door. Seems sloppy.

 

Based on the fact that the preview shows she called the CIA, I'm betting she is picked up by them. We'll see her debriefed. As it stands, if she stays with the KGB, she dies and is off the show. If she goes with the CIA there can be many more episodes with her as she tells them all about Clark.

[maczero]

I have to say, though. All things considered she took the news that she was conned by a KGB agent and committed treason far more calmly than I would have.

I'm bugged that they didn't have this conversation a long time ago. 

[Beadie]

The Americans is so good at giving its episodes meaningful titles, so when I saw that this episode was called "The Rat," I was sort of disappointed. I mean, I guess Martha is a "rat" in a certain sense, but it's sort of dull and obvious . . .

Isn't Phillip the rat, not Martha? He is the one that spilled secrets to an FBI employee.

[mwell345]

I could feel the tension in this episode.  Brilliantly executed on all levels.

 

Also want to give a kudo to Richard Thomas - his scene was brief, but he played it perfectly.  The acting by everyone in this show is incredible.

[maczero]

The Americans is so good at giving its episodes meaningful titles, so when I saw that this episode was called "The Rat," I was sort of disappointed. I mean, I guess Martha is a "rat" in a certain sense, but it's sort of dull and obvious . . .

Isn't Phillip the rat, not Martha? He is the one that spilled secrets to an FBI employee.

I always thought the titles were meant to be on the nose.  In this case, actually referring to the rat that contained the bioweapon.

[benteen]

I did think it was funny where Gabriel is listening to the sounds of Martha having sex.  My thought at the moment was "Skeletor is not amused."

[shura]

Considering Gabriel's let Martha scamper away, perhaps Philip might be able to call it a wash on who screwed up the most.

 

Oh, that one's on Philip, too. He is the person who, as he claims, knows Martha because he's been handling her for three years. It's absolutely his fail to not understand that she might not sit there and behave if he is not there himself. He should have made sure Gabriel knows that, too, and has a chance to get more people there to watch her in case things go askew. Especially when Martha finds her gun is missing. Did Philip even bother to tell Gabriel about the gun? If I were Gabriel staying there to watch Martha, I'd like to know details like that. 

 

"What else do you have?"

"Tularemia. Really nasty stuff."

"Sounds good."

And then William brings an actual freaking rat! Heh, let's pass that on to a friendly airline pilot.

Edited April 21, 2016 by shura

[topanga]

Oh, that one's on Philip, too. He is the person who, as he claims, knows Martha because he's been handling her for three years. It's absolutely his fail to not understand that she might not sit there and behave if he is not there himself. He should have made sure Gabriel knows that, too, and has a chance to get more people there to watch her in case things go askew. Especially when Martha finds her gun is missing. Did Philip even bother to tell Gabriel about the gun? If I were Gabriel staying there to watch Martha, I'd like to know details like that. 

 

"What else do you have?"

"Tularemia. Really nasty stuff."

"Sounds good."

And then William brings an actual freaking rat! Heh, let's pass that on to a friendly airline pilot.

My first thought when Philip was leaving was, "Couldn't he have left a note? If your S.O. is in a deep sleep when you leave, and you don't want that person to worry, leave a note!"

 

 

 I'm definitely most invested in how all this will unfold in a way that most impacts Philip and Elizabeth's marriage. Thus, it makes me feel a ton of resistance to those [Philip/Clark]/Martha scenes of intimacy because I can't help but also be Elizabeth in questioning where exactly Philip is coming from and what this means, especially learning that Philip hadn't even told Elizabeth that Martha has already seen him out of his disguise. Of course, I truly believe too that Elizabeth wants this to not end up being the disaster its becoming for Philip's sake, yet I love how she still can't help but feel jealousy and betrayal. I'm not sure how much Philip currently registers it, but I keep thinking that the more Philip lets this escalate, the more the KGB should really be questioning whether or not Philip can really safely continue to do his job.

 

As for Chekhov's Ladysmith and partner-in-crime Valium, I kinda figured they wouldn't go full Chekhov, but seeing the bottle of pills and having Philip consider the gun once he finds it still made me panic. I was practically screaming to my TV, "Philip, make sure she hasn't OD'd!" and "Holy shit, let's just calm down and put down the damn gun!" I really can't see the Martha storyline ending up anywhere but with her death (which is basically the best case scenario for Philip and Elizabeth), but I'm just so excited to see how the creators will either approach and/or subvert this.

 

Random asides:

I noticed this in the last episode, but I noticed again that it seems a bit like  Paige is being dressed quite similarly to Elizabeth this season. Am I just being crazy or does anyone else notice this? In Clark's Place, her hair was all off to the side the way Elizabeth almost always places her hair, and today for some reason her outfit kinda struck me as quite Elizabeth-esque. I might just be speaking out of my ass though.

 

Does the KGB not have a wider pool of spies to pick out from that they absolutely had to ask Phil & Liz to do a Glanders Pickup pt. 2?

 

Finally, how many of you are starting to notice the ways in which Keri Russell's belly will continue to be obscured?

Elizabeth was hella pissed in this episode because Philip is actually having an affair with Martha. He isn't just working an asset. I think Philip does love and care about Martha in his own complicated way. I feel for Martha because she actually thinks she and Clark can run away and be together. She has no idea that their entire marriage is a lie. 

 

And I completely forgot that Keri Russell is pregnant. I haven't bothered to look at her belly, probably because her face hasn't changed enough for me to take notice.

[teddysmom]

Clark is going to use Martha's gun on her and make it look like a suicide.

It'll get the FBI off everyone because it makes perfect sense. The FBI knows that she knows, and she couldn't live with it any longer.

How great was the look on Keri Russell's face when she walked into the kitchen.

[attica]

When Martha said "Jennifer is not your sister, is she?", I was absolutely expecting her to start asking if their marriage is real. Or if any of what she has with Clark is real.

And that's why this show is great. Because the prospect of asking those questions was too terrifying. What would be a true answer Martha could bear? Somewhere deep inside her lizard brain, she groks that there is no good answer. Which is why the lizard brain goes right to Pound Town. Maybe that way she can mark Clark as her territory and all the unacceptable answers won't be in play anymore.

 

My mom used to take pills like Martha does, placing them way back in her mouth. It does look weird, though.

[SunnyBeBe]

I did love the episode, but have to admit that I was rather annoyed, because I got the feeling that P & E and their comrades were bungling things similarly to how the FBI has bungled things over the course of his series.  Why would the FBI be able to search Martha and Philip's places  and yet Philip has no idea.  Really?  If the big question is whether or not she's been blown, then I would think that watching to see who goes to check these places might be a  great way to find out.  

 

Also, the FBI said that the tape was taken from the answering machine. Were they referring to the tape on the answering machine of Clarke or Martha?  I'm assuming Clarke. 

 

And I agree. Why would so little effort be put into ensuring that Martha stays put in Gabriel's house?  That just seemed sloppy to me and just a vehicle to get Martha running.  I didn't care for it. 

 

I do think Martha wanted to get pregnant.  Her mind was probably going in so many directions, but she really wanted that.  

 

I have adored Martha from day one, so I do hate to see her demise.  Can she be saved at this point?  Well, I guess short of an actual Clarke showing up to admit that he's been having an affair with her and all of his facts checking out......nah, I guess that's not likely.

 

One thing that I detest is how Stan will get credit for this.  He's so smug.  I hope to one day see how he feels when he's nailed as a spy due to his relationship with P & E.  Plus, he contacts to save Nina.  A case could easily be made against him.  I wish that P & E could see that and get evidence together so that they would have least have that as leverage if they get blown and need his protection. I've never understood why they have never done that. 

[scartact]

Elizabeth was hella pissed in this episode because Philip is actually having an affair with Martha. He isn't just working an asset. I think Philip does love and care about Martha in his own complicated way. I feel for Martha because she actually thinks she and Clark can run away and be together. She has no idea that their entire marriage is a lie.

I think this idea of the technicality of whether or not Philip is having an affair with Martha, especially because he revealed his face to her, is really interesting. It touches on a theme the show often broaches, the very thin separation of artifice and reality. It would be easy to interpret Philip's actions as coming from a place of love (or at the very least a strong emotional connection and empathy) for Martha, but it's also that if he can protect her, he can also continue to protect his family and Elizabeth, and their entire mission and operation and why they're in America in the first place. It just goes back to Philip saying in an earlier episode that it all matters; for him, it isn't just anyone thing, but it's so many different things and it just completely overwhelms him the more emotionally fraught he becomes and the more fragile his (and Elizabeth's) position is. I definitely think Philip's reactions reveal a kind of love for Martha and the quality of that love is absolutely what makes Elizabeth vexed and jealous.

There's a review somewhere that talks about how on some level when Philip chooses to stay with Martha and tells Elizabeth to go home, in a way it's like he chooses his duty over family, and I think that's another interesting interpretation of it. Of course, it isn't all that simple and there's an argument for him still choosing family over duty, but I just find a lot of these very intricate threads very interesting to pull at.

[sistermagpie]

None of them have accents, they could be anyone.  Gabe has to know that Philip, once again, went rogue and told her that.  Yes, there is a chance she simply guessed, but I'm pretty sure Gabe  thinks Philip told her, more evidence that he is a loose canon, that needs to be disappeared, just like William's partner.  That HAS to be why William told that story.

 

 

Technically they could be anyone but...why would they be anyone else? It's not like Martha actually was shocked at Clark's answer about who he worked for. The whole reason she said "For who...?" was to show she was now ready/needed him to say it. And since Philip is pushing for--and apparently possibly getting--an extraction, it's got to be pretty obvious. She still doesn't have to know that they're actually Russians. Americans work for the KGB too.

 

Martha basically is *not* Pastor Tim. She's a regular American who gets the reality of the Cold War. knows who would be doing this and reacts correctly to people working for the Russians. She's been passing him freakin' security files for biological weapons. Especially given the way she threw it at Gabriel, saying "I know who you are!" it didn't even have to come from Philip's mouth directly. And she was saying it because in her mind the KGB had done something to Clark. 

 

However yes, I totally agree on William's story applying to Philip here. Though I don't agree that Gabriel has any plans to replace Philip with William. He knows it's not that simple and he also knows that Philip is still a wildly important agent. William can't just step in with Kimmie, nor does he seem used to the kind of work Philip does with Elizabeth, who have honed their partnership for years, or on his own. In no way would William be able to step in as a stepfather/husband in the Jennings house. Replacing him with William would be the kind of stupid plan the Centre would come up with that Gabriel would have to pretend he thought was reasonable while knowing perfectly well that these people don't work this way.

 

I mean, Gabriel kind of hates Philip to begin with, and with this now (on top of all the other times he's defied them recently), you have to think he wants to send Philip back to Russia. There's no show if that happens, though

 

.

 

I really don't think this is true at all, that he hates Philip or that he wants to send him back to Russia in a Nina sense. Gabriel always has to hold the party line when he's with them, but that doesn't mean he might not actually understand where Philip is coming from. I think he's just been handling Philip badly since he came back and he hasn't found a way to do it better. That's why I keep going back to that moment when Philip goes to get the rat. There's a big close up of Philip putting a hand on Gabriel's shoulder and Gabriel squeezing his hand. I don't think either of them has to fake affection. 

 

Gabriel's been doing his own opening up lately, after all. His reminiscing about the terror under Stalin was, imo, a pretty big step for him, the kind of step that would finally be in the right direction for Philip. In this ep he finally did a good job handling him in that moment when he didn't try to play him psychologically and instead just explained why the rat was important.

 

I think these spies really care about each other, especially Gabriel and the Jennings, even when they're angry. I think Gabriel's relationship with Philip is just more complicated because all relationships with Philip are more complicated. He's slippery and Elizabeth isn't.

 

The fact that she thinks she's going to be near "Clark" is the only thing holding her to sanity. As soon as someone brings up that the plan is for her to be on the literal other side of the world, I don't see how she handles it.

 

 

She already on board for leaving the country--she just thinks she's going with Clark. Seems like that might be where the real reckoning lies. I don't know if it will play out this way at all, but I could certainly imagine the whole thing building towards Philip getting her on the ship and thinking it's all safe but then it falls apart because she realizes at last that he doesn't love her. At which point I could totally see him pretending he's going with her, giving her a romantic last meal, and then killing her or whatever.

 

Based on the fact that the preview shows she called the CIA, I'm betting she is picked up by them.

 

 

We don't actually know this. She calls someone. The FBI talks to someone. We don't know if she's talking to them. It certainly makes sense that she would be calling him, but we can't take it as a fact based on the previews. I think she will, if only to get the FBI in on the chase in a big way, but there might be another way to do that.

 

Isn't Phillip the rat, not Martha? He is the one that spilled secrets to an FBI employee.

 

 

Martha  isn't an FBI employee at this point in that sense. She's a KGB asset. She's one of the most valuable sources they have and has been willingly loyal to them for a while. I think that's a big part of Philip's issues with her, I mean, the reason that he has felt like he had to bring her in on more things. I think Elizabeth believes that Martha should still be the woman she was in S1 where she's constantly being manipulated while having no clue what she's doing. But Martha is like Paige--even more so. She found out about Walter Taffet and she stuck with Clark. At that moment perhaps more than any other she allied herself with the Centre. In Philip's eyes that means she's earned their protection and if he has to give her trust in return, that's natural. 

 

Oh, that one's on Philip, too. He is the person who, as he claims, knows Martha because he's been handling her for three years. It's absolutely his fail to not understand that she might not sit there and behave if he is not there himself. He should have made sure Gabriel knows that, too, and has a chance to get more people there to watch her in case things go askew

 

 

He did know it and he did make it pretty clear. That's why he stayed there overnight instead of Elizabeth. That's why he told Gabriel he shouldn't leave. Gabriel insisted. It doesn't take years of psychological study to know the woman might panic without her actual handler. They've all talked about this as a natural thing. Assets need their handlers. They don't react well to anyone else. It was true of the guy Elizabeth took out in S1, true of Fred in S2 and it's true of Martha.

 

Elizabeth was hella pissed in this episode because Philip is actually having an affair with Martha. He isn't just working an asset.

 

 

I really disagree. I don't see him having an affair with Martha at all. An affair, imo, involves him wanting her romantically in some way and I don't see him doing that. I think he'd be thrilled if he could pass her on to some other guy who actually loved her. He is working an asset--he also just cares deeply and personally about the asset. He's still stringing her along by pretending to be in love with her, pretending they're going to run away together until that all blows up. There are similar elements of betrayal when Elizabeth sees how far he's put his trust in her and been vulnerable to her, but it's not like this is stuff Philip's doing for selfish reasons. He wants to be the guy she needs, but he's not.

 

Elizabeth doesn't usually work people like this (Young Hee is obviously going to be an exception and bite her on the ass). Her own understanding of this sort of thing is Gregory: he was her boyfriend and Philip was not. She kept him secret because she was her "real" self with him. I just don't think Philip works like that. He gives himself to people more honestly from the start. He genuinely cares about Kimmie already as well.

 

I think this aspect of him has just gotten seriously worse over the 3 seasons and it's happening to Elizabeth too. Their love affair with each other has opened them up in ways they weren't before. It's more obvious with Philip because he was always a bit like this but I think it's true of Elizabeth as well. 

 

Also, the FBI said that the tape was taken from the answering machine. Were they referring to the tape on the answering machine of Clarke or Martha?  I'm assuming Clarke.

 

 

Clark's. We saw Philip take the tape last week. He doesn't leave messages for Martha on her machine.

 

One thing that I detest is how Stan will get credit for this.  He's so smug.  I hope to one day see how he feels when he's nailed as a spy due to his relationship with P & E.  Plus, he contacts to save Nina.

 

 

I was thinking that when Stan asked Aderholdt if he found Nina attractive because I wasn't sure exactly what the relevance of the question was. Was he saying she was attractive enough that she should have a boyfriend? That it was unbelievable that she had snagged some married man? That this was the best she could hope for? Because I was thinking, "Well Stan, you were with Nina who's totally out of your league and you still haven't admitted to yourself that you were being played..."

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Americans Tries To Solve Its Martha Problem
The term 'safe house' has never been more ironic!

[RedHawk]

Oh, that one's on Philip, too. He is the person who, as he claims, knows Martha because he's been handling her for three years. It's absolutely his fail to not understand that she might not sit there and behave if he is not there himself. He should have made sure Gabriel knows that, too, and has a chance to get more people there to watch her in case things go askew. Especially when Martha finds her gun is missing. Did Philip even bother to tell Gabriel about the gun? If I were Gabriel staying there to watch Martha, I'd like to know details like that. 

 

"What else do you have?"

"Tularemia. Really nasty stuff."

"Sounds good."

And then William brings an actual freaking rat! Heh, let's pass that on to a friendly airline pilot.

Ha! Who ARE they going to try to hand that thing off to? Maybe Martha can take it to the USSR in her coat pocket.

[shura]

He did know it and he did make it pretty clear. That's why he stayed there overnight instead of Elizabeth. That's why he told Gabriel he shouldn't leave. Gabriel insisted. It doesn't take years of psychological study to know the woman might panic without her actual handler. They've all talked about this as a natural thing. Assets need their handlers. They don't react well to anyone else. It was true of the guy Elizabeth took out in S1, true of Fred in S2 and it's true of Martha.

 

And yet the result - Martha simply walking out and Gabriel not being able to do a thing about it - is the same as it would be if Philip knew nothing. I just can't understand why Philip didn't emphasize it to Gabriel that Martha should be watched more closely, preferably by someone who can move without a cane, since she is not really on board with everything yet and who know what she'll do when she finds her gun missing. It's not even a question of minding the KGB's interests. Philip wants Martha to stay in the safehouse and get extracted eventually, it was his idea to do this in the first place for Martha's own sake. What does he do to make sure she stays there safe when he needs to step out? Not much, seemingly. Not even a note for her, like topanga suggested.

[Ina123]

I misspoke above. I mean in the previews it appears that she is calling the office. If she comes in from the cold back to Stan, Alderholt and Gaat she has a better chance of staying on the show for a lot more episodes. She's been a good character and I think they would want to keep her for as long as possible. I just don't see her existing long with the KGB, extraction or not.

[Darren]

I misspoke above. I mean in the previews it appears that she is calling the office. If she comes in from the cold back to Stan, Alderholt and Gaat she has a better chance of staying on the show for a lot more episodes. She's been a good character and I think they would want to keep her for as long as possible. I just don't see her existing long with the KGB, extraction or not.

That may have just been creative editing for the preview, though. I'm not convinced it was the FBI she was calling. They may have just spliced together those scenes to make us draw that conclusion - falsely, of course.

Oh, this show. So falsey!!!

As an aside, I don't think Philip (aka Clark) is romantically interested in Martha. I think he has an affection for her, but not "that kind" of affection. I think he just really feels responsible for her well-being. He's been "running" her for 3 years now. That's a heavy burden. Of course, he should clarify this with Elizabeth. He's being typically male there in assuming that Elizabeth should "just know" that his feelings for her are on a completely different level.

 

That's honestly probably my favorite part of this great show - the realistic way they play out male/female communication and relationships. Miscommunications every where you look - much like in real life!

Edited April 21, 2016 by Darren

[RedHawk]

I think Philip has been surprised by the depth of his feeling for Martha. He knows it's not what he feels for Elizabeth, but it IS a kind of love that makes him protective and caring. There's also tremendous guilt. When Martha said, "I didn't believe I'd ever have this" we viewers know her backstory of a devastating betrayal when she was young. Philip may not have known that but he sensed her loneliness and pain, which led him to choose her as an asset. He didn't realize that creating a false relationship and then marriage with her would reveal the trusting, good, kind person she is. He cared very much about Annaliese -- as he admitted to Yusuf -- but not in the way he cares about Martha. It has to be so deeply confusing for him.

[benteen]

Yeah, I don't think Philip is in love with Martha but I've felt for a while that he truly does care about her.

[sistermagpie]

And yet the result - Martha simply walking out and Gabriel not being able to do a thing about it - is the same as it would be if Philip knew nothing.

 

 

Well, yeah, but the rat was important so Gabriel told Philip to get it and Philip went to get it. They took that risk and both knew they were taking it. They both had enough info to know this could happen. Philip was following Gabriel's orders in leaving.

 

I think Philip has been surprised by the depth of his feeling for Martha. He knows it's not what he feels for Elizabeth, but it IS a kind of love that makes him protective and caring. There's also tremendous guilt.

 

 

I also think it's important to remember Philip's reaction when Martha talked about adopting a child who needed a home. I think he sees in her many of the best impulses people can have--and while we don't know whether he was an orphan or not it certainly seemed like that line struck a personal chord in him for some reason. She's protecting him now with that same motherly affection despite what hes done to her and telling her it's all okay as long as they can be together. And Philip certainly understands that thinking.

[Chaos Theory]

Comrades! We had the Poor Marthiest episode yet and next episode looks to be even Poor Marthier. . I do want to point out though that there are still 6 episodes in the season. Which I think means Martha will survive for awhile even if the ultimate goal is her ultimate death. I still however say that killing her feels like moving backward and the show may be slow burn but it continues to move forward to an ultimate goal.

[Tetraneutron]

Technically they could be anyone but...why would they be anyone else? It's not like Martha actually was shocked at Clark's answer about who he worked for. The whole reason she said "For who...?" was to show she was now ready/needed him to say it. And since Philip is pushing for--and apparently possibly getting--an extraction, it's got to be pretty obvious. She still doesn't have to know that they're actually Russians. Americans work for the KGB too.

 

Martha basically is *not* Pastor Tim. She's a regular American who gets the reality of the Cold War. knows who would be doing this and reacts correctly to people working for the Russians. She's been passing him freakin' security files for biological weapons. Especially given the way she threw it at Gabriel, saying "I know who you are!" it didn't even have to come from Philip's mouth directly. And she was saying it because in her mind the KGB had done something to Clark. 

 

However yes, I totally agree on William's story applying to Philip here. Though I don't agree that Gabriel has any plans to replace Philip with William. He knows it's not that simple and he also knows that Philip is still a wildly important agent. William can't just step in with Kimmie, nor does he seem used to the kind of work Philip does with Elizabeth, who have honed their partnership for years, or on his own. In no way would William be able to step in as a stepfather/husband in the Jennings house. Replacing him with William would be the kind of stupid plan the Centre would come up with that Gabriel would have to pretend he thought was reasonable while knowing perfectly well that these people don't work this way.

 

.

 

I really don't think this is true at all, that he hates Philip or that he wants to send him back to Russia in a Nina sense. Gabriel always has to hold the party line when he's with them, but that doesn't mean he might not actually understand where Philip is coming from. I think he's just been handling Philip badly since he came back and he hasn't found a way to do it better. That's why I keep going back to that moment when Philip goes to get the rat. There's a big close up of Philip putting a hand on Gabriel's shoulder and Gabriel squeezing his hand. I don't think either of them has to fake affection. 

 

Gabriel's been doing his own opening up lately, after all. His reminiscing about the terror under Stalin was, imo, a pretty big step for him, the kind of step that would finally be in the right direction for Philip. In this ep he finally did a good job handling him in that moment when he didn't try to play him psychologically and instead just explained why the rat was important.

 

I think these spies really care about each other, especially Gabriel and the Jennings, even when they're angry. I think Gabriel's relationship with Philip is just more complicated because all relationships with Philip are more complicated. He's slippery and Elizabeth isn't.

 

 

She already on board for leaving the country--she just thinks she's going with Clark. Seems like that might be where the real reckoning lies. I don't know if it will play out this way at all, but I could certainly imagine the whole thing building towards Philip getting her on the ship and thinking it's all safe but then it falls apart because she realizes at last that he doesn't love her. At which point I could totally see him pretending he's going with her, giving her a romantic last meal, and then killing her or whatever.

That was my point. She thinks she's going to end up with Clark, everyone else knows she isn't. As soon as it becomes clear the plan is to separate them by the molten core of a planet, Martha's last tiny link to sanity is gone. And unless she's killed, she goes to the FBI. Personally I hope she does go to the FBI because that's the only way I see her storyline continuing and I love it. 

 

As for Philip and Gabriel, they never liked each other. Elizabeth always got along with much better than Philip did. Even in this season, when Gabriel asked them if they still wanted him as their handler, Elizabeth agreed immediately and Philip only reluctantly. And Philip has gone rogue a few times: sneaking Elizabeth and Paige across the Iron Curtain to see E's mother (Gabriel confronted Philip about that, never Elizabeth), insisting they don't kill Pastor Tim (Gabriel only agreed to the change of plan when Elizabeth changed her mind), and now, revealing his real identity to Martha and fighting Gabriel on direct orders. When Martha, Philip's responsibility, has gone so far off the reservation that she's carrying a gun and screaming in the street that they're all KGB, my guess is this leads to Gabriel being really angry that Philip has blown this. And William revealing in this episode that his "wife" was sent back to the USSR? I bet that's not a coincidence. It's telling the audience that this is a thing that can happen and I bet Gabriel brings it up. 

[BananaRama]

Clark is gone and Martha is left alone with a stranger who is KGB - all this - AFTER just learning that she has committed treason and that she can never return to her home. Martha is feeling betrayed and isolated. She is going to turn to the people who she did know and trust before meeting Clark and those people are her colleagues at the FBI -- but then again, she did screw them over so the FBI isn't that thrilled with her either. I just don't see her choosing to trust the KGB. I'm guessing Martha will contact the FBI and they will tell her that they will keep her safe as long as she tells them everything. That includes giving a detailed description of Phillip and Gabriel and the KGB can't have that - Phillip or Elizabeth will have to kill Martha before she talks to the FBI. She's not going to Russia. She's not going to Cuba. She's not going to a Federal prison.

[sistermagpie]

As for Philip and Gabriel, they never liked each other.

 

 

I don't think that's true at all. Gabriel was their handler many years and was a father figure to Philip as well as Elizabeth. When he returned Philip and Elizabeth were both thrilled to see him and he was affectionate with Philip. They haven't been getting along, but I think they have absolutely liked each other in the past and find it painful that they're not getting along now. 

 

Elizabeth is easy to agree with because she's the teacher's pet. In the parental metaphor, Elizabeth still puts all her faith in her father and wants to please him. Philip's not like that anymore and it's taken Gabriel a while to adjust to that. Philip's the problem child, imo, not just some guy he doesn't like. In fact, even their first reunion kind of set this up--Elizabeth runs in with ice cream and gets a hug like she's grandpa's favorite. Gabriel has to be chummier with Philip and they play games together like you do with a shyer kid.

 

Philip became angry at Gabriel when Gabriel had to start pressuring him to give his daughter to the KGB, something Gabriel himself isn't so sure is a good idea either. He got even angrier at him when he started using his alleged son to manipulate him. I think Gabriel is more torn and worried when it comes to Philip than just disliking the guy like an annoying colleague. I think he wants to keep him safe.

 

I also don't think Gabriel looks at Martha and just sees Philip as having blown it. Martha is an incredibly valuable asset, as is Kimmie, and it was Philip who worked them. She got made by the FBI - it happens. It's not the first time assets have become dangerous because they freak out. It's part of the job. It doesn't make Philip a villain. Gabriel might certainly bring up the William situation and I agree that was raised intentionally as a danger for Philip, but that doesn't mean Gabriel is going to be the one who wants Philip sent back to Russia. He knows Elizabeth wouldn't deal with it well at all. and I think he feels personally responsible for Philip. 

 

Elizabeth, remember, was the one who got Gregory his death-by-cop when the Centre wanted him killed quietly. She also kidnapped a CIA agent and was planning to kill him. And beat up her handler. None of those things were under Gabriel's watch but they're not so different than Philip's antics where he's demanding something for his partner or agent.

 

Plus, like I said above, this ep actually has Philip and Gabriel having an affectionate moment, their first since I don't know when. It seems odd to put that in when the point is that they don't like each other. I think it's more growing pains. Gabriel treats them a bit like children. Elizabeth still responds to it. Philip doesn't.

 

Another thing that struck me in this ep. When Elizabeth asks Philip "Did you want her to see you?" Last week when she told Philip to raise the kids as Americans if she died she said it was "It's what you've always wanted." Couple weeks before that when Philip wanted to go to Russia she said "You don't want that."

 

In response to all of these things I think Philip was just silent. He gave a bitter chuckle about "You don't want that," I think just shook his head or was stunned about "what you've always wanted" and here didn't know what to say to her question. I feel like this is hitting really obviously the fact that Philip rarely if ever acts out of what he wants--he does what he described to Paige. He thinks about what other people want or need.

[gwhh]

I like how when Martha and Gabriel had the showdown It was in the middle of the day, in the middle of the street, in a nice area of town. It showered how things are being brought out into the light!

I don't know how long it would take to check every county courthouse in America BEFORE everything was on computers. But that job would have been very hard to be accomplished regardless of how much man power you put into it before the computer age. If they had a place to start looking them maybe they would have been able to do it!

Love how Stan and everyone else at the FBI talked so full of pain about Martha betrayal. So full words, so full of depth. You notice the people who talk the most in this show are Phillip and Gabriel!

Are Stan and his sidekick FBI agent able to order up a full FBI forensics team with out the OK of there normal boss Gaad?

The East Germany Stasi did send young male stud agents to date the middle age sectaries during the cold war. I wonder if at this time period the west intelligences agencies was aware of this program?

Edited April 22, 2016 by gwhh

[Umbelina]

Great comments.  Of course I quoted several and had replies typed out and then poof, hit the wrong key and it all disappeared. 

 

I don't think it's about whether or not Gabe or Philip like each other.  They don't TRUST each other, and for very good reasons on both of their parts.  They may like each other on personal levels, but so what?  Gabe isn't going to compromise himself for anyone, he's loyal to his country, even if he is aware of it's issues.

 

I've been saying it for a while now, Philip is out of control, he's constantly tweaking the nose of the KGB.  Lately, he's gone completely off the reservation, at least as far as the KGB in Moscow will probably see it.  Absolutely that little conversation with William about his wife/partner being removed is critical.  I can't even remember all the red flags (sorry) have blown in the breeze to bureaucrats back at Center.

 

1. His own partner reported him for possible sympathies to the enemy etc.
2. He's flat out said "no" to a few assignments.
3. He balked and refused when the KGB ordered them to bring Paige into the KGB.  Elizabeth was initially thrilled. 
4. He played a dangerous game of chicken, forcing the KGB to his will with the little Germany jaunt.
5. He refused to sleep with Kimmy even tho his handler ordered it as the safest way.
6. He revealed his true self to Martha, putting not only himself, but Gabe and Elizabeth in jeopardy.
7. He LIED to his handler about that, and to his partner, for weeks, further endangering them.
8. He told Martha they were KGB, when, at that point, she would have probably believed anything, for Martha, to hell with them!

 

I'm positive there are more I'm forgetting.  IF he had told Gabe that he'd just confessed to Martha that they were all KGB, would Gabe had still insisted Philip go take care of the bio-weapon?  Who knows?  Gabe didn't get the chance to make an informed decision there, because once again, his operations officer LIED TO HIM.

 

Flip the switch on this, picture a CIA/FBI agent doing any of these things.  Would they still be in the field?  No.  NO one is that valuable, no matter how well placed, no matter how expensive.  William's wife/partner wasn't, and neither is Philip.

 

Now we all know, because this is a TV show, we aren't going to lose our lead actor.  I think the threat of losing him will be part of the story here though, and it should be.  I have no idea how this show will eventually end, but today it occurred to me that it could end with Elizabeth in William's shoes here.  Still spying, but with Philip gone, probably dead, never to be heard from again. 

 

Would the KGB seriously consider William and Elizabeth teaming up?  Why not?  It's logical.  They both had disloyal partners, and they both need one, are already located in the same area.  It would take a bit of time, to make the story believable perhaps, but new house, new neighborhood, Elizabeth would eventually begin to date again, it could be sold pretty easily to other American's, nothing illogical about it, nothing that would raise red flags to the FBI.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Umbelina

[Ina123]

Why didn't Gabriel show up at the safe house in disguise? Now she knows what he looks like, too.

 

Go back to the FBI, Martha. Spill your guts. Get those sumbitches.

It would be real tricky killing Phillip. Paige would freak out if she suspected KGB.

[jjj]

The rat is such a metaphor for Martha -- it is decaying, and they have no idea how to either transport or dispose of it.  And it is extremely hazardous biomaterial. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by jjj

[Umbelina]

 

The East Germany Stasi did send young male stud agents to date the middle age sectaries during the cold war.  I wonder if at this time period the west intelligences agencies was aware of this program?   

I'm not sure if you mean that specific program or the whole "honey trap" method in general?  The specific program?  No idea.

 

Honey traps?  ALL sides used it, and ALL sides knew the others used it.  That's why you saw the FBI guys so quickly realize what had probably happened with Martha.  That's why they used Nina on Stan.  Honey traps weren't gender specific.  Men were trapped just as easily as women like Martha, perhaps even more easily. 

 

 

Comrades! We had the Poor Marthiest episode yet and next episode looks to be even Poor Marthier. . I do want to point out though that there are still 6 episodes in the season. Which I think means Martha will survive for awhile even if the ultimate goal is her ultimate death. I still however say that killing her feels like moving backward and the show may be slow burn but it continues to move forward to an ultimate goal.

Another thing I love about this show, SIX more episodes!  This would have been an above average season finale for many shows out there, but, for The Americans?  It was just a mid-season show.  So cool! 

 

I do hope Martha survives, I think it's logical that she could, but it's equally logical that she does not.  I still want my "Martha does Moscow." thing.  Oh!  I decided my answer to the prison or Moscow choice I posed earlier.  I would choose life outside of prison, even if it was Moscow during the Cold War.  The idea of being locked up terrifies me more than bread lines and lack of freedom.  I'd make the best of things in Moscow, and that would be a good choice!  In a few years, the wall and country comes down and I could leave and go somewhere else.

 

I also think it's important to remember Philip's reaction when Martha talked about adopting a child who needed a home. I think he sees in her many of the best impulses people can have--and while we don't know whether he was an orphan or not it certainly seemed like that line struck a personal chord in him for some reason. She's protecting him now with that same motherly affection despite what hes done to her and telling her it's all okay as long as they can be together. And Philip certainly understands that thinking.

Something was going on with Elizabeth when that happened too, but I can't think what it was, it seems like it was very anti-American values stuff along with disagreements.  I always  thought that at that moment Philip saw that Americans, and specifically Martha, could and did share values he respected.  "We have so much Clark, we should share that."  Elizabeth was talking the talk, but Martha was walking it.

I misspoke above. I mean in the previews it appears that she is calling the office. If she comes in from the cold back to Stan, Alderholt and Gaat she has a better chance of staying on the show for a lot more episodes. She's been a good character and I think they would want to keep her for as long as possible. I just don't see her existing long with the KGB, extraction or not.

There are only 3 possible calls she could be making.

 

1. Her parents.  Why?  They can't help her now, and she knows the FBI has that phone tapped by now
2. The number Clark made her memorize, but she knows now that connects to the KGB, and she just ran from them.
3. The FBI.  The only people who could protect her from the KGB, even if it means prison.

 

Now, if Philip somehow finds her when she's on the phone or before the FBI picks her up, and she sees that he's alive after all?  Game changer for Martha.

1.

I did love the episode, but have to admit that I was rather annoyed, because I got the feeling that P & E and their comrades were bungling things similarly to how the FBI has bungled things over the course of his series.  Why would the FBI be able to search Martha and Philip's places  and yet Philip has no idea.  Really?  If the big question is whether or not she's been blown, then I would think that watching to see who goes to check these places might be a  great way to find out.  

 

------------

2.

And I agree. Why would so little effort be put into ensuring that Martha stays put in Gabriel's house?  That just seemed sloppy to me and just a vehicle to get Martha running.  I didn't care for it. 

-----------

3.

I do think Martha wanted to get pregnant.  Her mind was probably going in so many directions, but she really wanted that.  

-----------

4.

I have adored Martha from day one, so I do hate to see her demise.  Can she be saved at this point?  Well, I guess short of an actual Clarke showing up to admit that he's been having an affair with her and all of his facts checking out......nah, I guess that's not likely.

----------

5.

One thing that I detest is how Stan will get credit for this.  He's so smug.  I hope to one day see how he feels when he's nailed as a spy due to his relationship with P & E.  Plus, he contacts to save Nina.  A case could easily be made against him.  I wish that P & E could see that and get evidence together so that they would have least have that as leverage if they get blown and need his protection. I've never understood why they have never done that. 

1.  Things get bungled in real life, even in spy life.  Honestly, I'd bet that's more the norm than the exception.  People are unpredictable, have flaws, screw up.  I kind of love that this show isn't slick, and show that.

 

2.  If Philip had bothered to tell his boss that he'd just told Martha they are all the frickin' KGB, things may have changed.  See #1.

 

3.  Oh I do too! Glad I'm not the only one.  Clever writers with the dual word.  "Come/Cum" inside me.  What birth control was she using anyway?  If it's a diagram, it makes even more sense.

 

4.  Probably not, but I think her chances are better than Philip's right now, were this all real.

 

5.  That doesn't bother me.  Stan SHOULD get the credit for this.  It's all him.  He's the one who didn't buy the suicide, felt the timing and whole thing was too pat.  He's the one who's had suspicions about Martha for a long time.  He's the one who did all of it really.  He may suck at life, but he is a good agent.  As far as Philip and Elizabeth living next door and him not catching on?  I honestly don't fault him for that.  I mean really, what are the odds?  When Stan goes home, it's home, not work.  He doesn't spy on his neighbors or suspect them all of being KGB, that would lead to madness.  He's had his own serious issues at home anyway, when he's even there.  Again, he's human.  He was going through a painful marriage and even more painful divorce, and things at work have been tense and busy as well.  His spidery senses have been tuned toward Martha and that, but we are seeing glimses of him starting to wonder a bit about the Jennings now.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Umbelina

[Tetraneutron]

Would the KGB seriously consider William and Elizabeth teaming up?  Why not?  It's logical.  They both had disloyal partners, and they both need one, are already located in the same area.  It would take a bit of time, to make the story believable perhaps, but new house, new neighborhood, Elizabeth would eventually begin to date again, it could be sold pretty easily to other American's, nothing illogical about it, nothing that would raise red flags to the FBI.

I don't see why that would happen. William is kind of a jackass who doesn't get along with anybody. And as we've seen, you don't need to be part of a fake husband and wife combo. When Eliza was sent back, William was ordered to continue as normal. Besides, he works as a scientist, a completely different and more specialized job than what Elizabeth does. William isn't going to be working marks and collecting intel by having sex with people, because he would be terrible at that. 

 

And while it might not raise red flags with the neighbours and the FBI, Paige and Henry, the hoped-for second generation spies, would have a huge problem with it. 

 

But I don't see how the issue of Philip being sent back to the USSR isn't even broached. Or killed. Killing annoyances is Gabriel's go-to for everything. 

[crgirl412]

Nina died.

 

Martha is going to die.

 

Prince died.

 

SIGH.........

[Umbelina]

I don't see why that would happen. William is kind of a jackass who doesn't get along with anybody. And as we've seen, you don't need to be part of a fake husband and wife combo. When Eliza was sent back, William was ordered to continue as normal. Besides, he works as a scientist, a completely different and more specialized job than what Elizabeth does. William isn't going to be working marks and collecting intel by having sex with people, because he would be terrible at that. 

 

And while it might not raise red flags with the neighbours and the FBI, Paige and Henry, the hoped-for second generation spies, would have a huge problem with it. 

 

But I don't see how the issue of Philip being sent back to the USSR isn't even broached. Or killed. Killing annoyances is Gabriel's go-to for everything. 

On this show, the KGB prefers it's embedded agents to be married, who knows why?  Oh, and William isn't "doing well" alone, he hasn't brought them one single valuable thing in 25 years.

 

Probably because it's more "normal" and there is less chance of an agent falling in love with an American, which could cause all kinds of problems, less being "fixed up" by well meaning neighbors or acquaintances, more built in excuses to be out and about or not available.  Again, we need to see this from the Moscow KGB's position and framework.  Why not team them up?  It's a job.  Do it.  Don't bother me with your petty little romantic bullshit crap.

 

It's not going to happen, but I can see how logically it will probably be presented.  Philip gone.  Probably "killed" in a car accident.  Back to Moscow to face the music.  Elizabeth knowing the same bullet could be hitting her head any minute, not about to step out of line.  She stays single a while, eventually begins to date William who she meets in any number of ways, but probably in public.  Paige is suspicious of course, but several options there as well, scare her, her mom's life is on the line too now, lie to her and say dad really did die and Elizabeth likes William and it's part of her job, whatever.  Moscow isn't going to care about petty details like that.  DO IT.

[AliShibaz]

Hello. This is my first post in this forum. This episode is one of the very best episodes I've ever seen for any TV show. I will have more to say about it later. But before posting much more, I'd like to watch it again.

 

At this time, I'd like to say that IMO, you people are incredibly lucky to have this forum. I don't know if you appreciate just how terrible most other forums and discussions of this show are. But this forum seems to be head and shoulders above most any other forums - all put together. I've seen some truly amazing insights just in this thread and I hope that I will be able to make some suitable contributions in the future.

 

I have been participating in two other forums - mostly about this show as well as Fargo, Better Call Saul and Game of Thrones. I think we are all extremely fortunate to be living in a time when these four shows are being broadcast because IMO, they quite possibly number among the finest TV shows ever produced.

 

I can't believe the level of drama and the expectation of things to come have risen so high when we have only seen six of the ten episodes this season. I'm guessing we're about to see a whole lot of wonderful drama in the remaining four episodes.

 

Many people here have referenced problems with the level of reality of this show and errors made regarding believability of the events. But I'd rather sacrifice a little believability any day in favor of incresased drama and suspense. I think the only other thing I want to say at this time is just how wonderfully this show has developed in the current season. I only hope we will see more seasons and more shows being produced by these show runners. This show is on the same level as Game of Thrones and yet ... i seems to me it has been produced with only a very tiny fraction of the budget spent on Game of Thrones. That seems like an important lesson. You don't have to spend a fortune to produce wonderful TV shows. It's not all about special effects and locations and numbers of actors. IMO, it has a lot more to do with story and the feelings generated by the story.

Edited April 21, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Knuckles]

I would like to add something to the discussion that may have been overlooked...when Paige asks Henry to use his computer for her school work, he replies sure,but they have no printer. Elizabeth, without thinking twice, tells Paige, no problem, you can use the printer in our travel office.

So Paige will now have access to the office. Maybe that's not such a good idea, Liz.

[Anela]

I have been unable to focus lately, so I'm going to have to watch it again, but what I was mostly paying attention, and I think this was my favourite episode of the whole show. 

 

Stan is an ass, but he's good at his job. I like to see things come together, but I don't like how it seems that Martha will be punished no matter what. 

[misstwpherecool]

I did think it was funny where Gabriel is listening to the sounds of Martha having sex.  My thought at the moment was "Skeletor is not amused."

Neither was I.

 

I think there was a lot of unnecessary language and stuff in that segment. Was there an actual purpose for Martha to do that. Was she that naive that she thought sex would be a leverage or negotiation points?

 

Also she is scared enough to pack her pistol yet not sleep with it knowing she is at the end of the line. Or better/actually worse yet take sleeping pills when you need to be on your toes waiting to seize an opportunity to escape?

 

I agree for the show and Martha it's probably is or best if the CIA does wind up with her if for no other reason the minute she describes/ gives an artist a description of Philip Stan knows. So they have to keep Stan away from the case to or the show & case would be darn near over.

[sistermagpie]

I've been saying it for a while now, Philip is out of control, he's constantly tweaking the nose of the KGB.  Lately, he's gone completely off the reservation, at least as far as the KGB in Moscow will probably see it.

 

 

I don't think it's exactly that he's out of control because on paper these things are so terrible. For instance, 

 

I don't remember him really flat-out refusing assignments. He actually seems to work far more hours than Elizabeth. 

 

He didn't want Paige in the program--but the Connors didn't want their kids in the program either and they weren't considered out of control. Also in the end, it was Philip along with Elizabeth who brought her in. Elizabeth played at the idea that she was recruiting her but actually dragged her feet as long as he did and in the end she was in--which caused the biggest security breath they have, one which Elizabeth and not Philip eventually refused to take care of via murder.

 

I don't think the Centre has reason to care whether Philip's having sex with Kimmie as long as he's getting this great intel. He's still holding it out as something he might do in future, but it's not necessary now.

 

Elizabeth was the one who went to Germany with her daughter and stayed there until they brought her mother. If I was some guy in Moscow reading about this I don't know why I wouldn't think this was about her. Nobody forced her to go.

 

I don't know if there's some rule about not saying KGB, but Gabriel has no idea what Martha suspected or guessed. Obviously she knows she hasn't been stealing counterespionage files and security logs at the height of the Cold War for the Mormons.

 

So for me it seems like the issue with Philip isn't that he's committed crimes that add up to treason--most if not all of these things are in service to the Centre even if he's not doing it the way they want. Even revealing his face, while a hugely bad thing to do without getting permission first or even worse without telling everyone, was done for tactical reasons. (Or at least the first part was--not telling everyone seems far more problematic.)

 

The point, to me, doesn't seem to be what his specific crimes were but that they point to a whole attittude. That, I think, is why Gabriel can dismiss Elizabeth going to Germany but not Philip planning it. Or being less worried about Elizabeth punching out Claudia than Philip not sleeping with Kimmie. He gets that Elizabeth is still trying to at least justify her actions to herself as being for the cause even if she's hiding behind Philip's rebellion. He knows that Philip has begun to demand respect and that's a danger. 

 

But the ep still did have Gabriel handling Philip the best way he has in 2 seasons. He wants to blame Philip's using the letters KGB in front of Martha for her walking about? How about his own decision to order the agent out of the house when he said he should stay with himself as the only security? Why not blame himself for being the weak link in the Glanders chain that resulted in an infection? Everybody fucks up sometimes. Everybody sometimes makes decisions based on something personal--even Elizabeth.

 

I mean, let's not forget Claudia here too. She confessed to a HUGE security breach after the Connors were killed. She thought she might have been responsible--and how many times has she gone off the reservation? She's the one that put P&E on an unauthorized investigation into the Connors murders, she set up Elizabeth to kidnap the CIA agent and then murdered that same agent herself, which could have caused a huge incident.

 

Yeah, other people have done even worse than Philip. The problem with Philip is I think his motivation.

 

 

Would the KGB seriously consider William and Elizabeth teaming up?  Why not?  It's logical.

 

 

But Elizabeth does not need to be married and neither does William. William's a scientist who works in a lab and passes things on it seems, not somebody running multiple missions like the Jennings. If they never saw a reason to pair him up after Eliza why would they suddenly see the need to do it now? Frankly he'd probably have a seriously hard time living with somebody at this point. 

 

"We have so much Clark, we should share that."  Elizabeth was talking the talk, but Martha was walking it.

 

 

Yeah, it was definitely a socialist sentiment from Martha there--and I think she was putting it in exactly the terms Philip would like it himself. Not about the Cause or quoting Marx but about people sharing to make sure the most vulnerable were protected. Also I think at the time Elizabeth was full-on for recruiting Paige so it would mean something that Martha wanted to give a child a good, happy life.

 

As far as Philip and Elizabeth living next door and him not catching on?  I honestly don't fault him for that.  I mean really, what are the odds?

 

 

And they've never done anything suspicious. It's not like they're always giving him excuses for things he's noticed.

 

On this show, the KGB prefers it's embedded agents to be married, who knows why?  Oh, and William isn't "doing well" alone, he hasn't brought them one single valuable thing in 25 years.

 

 

I think the point is that he hasn't brought them valuable things because the lab he's worked in and his security clearance haven't yielded anything--he's never gotten a chance to steal something important. He can't create stuff to steal, after all. It's only now that they're having these possible breakthroughs and he's right there to get them. It would be better if he had a higher level security clearance but that's not going to change because he's fake-married that I can see. If it was an issue why not pair him up earlier? The marriage was in large part about having kids. Elizabeth has them and they're almost grown and out of the house. 

 

They even addressed this back in S1. It's the 80s. Nobody's weird for not being married anymore. Elizabeth and her unpleasant new husband is probably more noticeable than Elizabeth the widow with two grown kids. She would absolutely object to them pairing her up with another husband. 

 

So Paige will now have access to the office. Maybe that's not such a good idea, Liz.

 

 

I don't think they have spy stuff in the office. She already has access to it.

 

Was there an actual purpose for Martha to do that. Was she that naive that she thought sex would be a leverage or negotiation points?

 

 

No, from her pov the only thing she has in this world is Clark who loves her and she wanted to connect with him and have sex.

Edited April 21, 2016 by sistermagpie

[joelene]

I don't want Martha to die :'(

[misstwpherecool]

Some how I missed a key piece of info. How did Stan and Aderholt find the address of Clark's place?

I missed that too. Also did they say found a "dead" Clarke in Atlanta? Didn't Gadd mention something about death certificates. Using IDs of dead people, isn't that how it works for false ids in the spy world. Also wasn't Atlanta where the dead KGB family operated out of?

 

So Philip is blown as is "Clarke".

[Umbelina]

We shall see sistermagpie.

 

I've been saying Philip's skating on very thin ice with lots of sharp rocks underneath for a really long time.  For as long as I've been saying it, you've been disagreeing with me.  It's been a good debate!  I think we are both about to find out.  Ha!

 

I don't see the KGB as a forgiving or caring bunch, and as far as anything disloyal?  Yeah, look at Nina.  Or William's wife.  She's a better example.  She WAS Philip.

 

I missed that too. Also did they say found a "dead" Clarke in Atlanta? Didn't Gadd mention something about death certificates. Using IDs of dead people, isn't that how it works for false ids in the spy world. Also wasn't Atlanta where the dead KGB family operated out of?

 

So Philip is blown as is "Clarke".

Dead ID's were the most common way to create false documents/identities back then, that's why Gaad went there immediately, and Stan and Aderholt were already on it.  It won't work now, but back then?  Yes.  Computers changed everything, as did cell phones and all other forms of instant information.

 

I didn't even think of Atlanta being where the dead KGB was, I doubt it's related, but interesting.

 

Yeah, Clark's dead as a cover, but I think he only used it with Martha anyway.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Umbelina

[jjj]

3.  Oh I do too! Glad I'm not the only one.  Clever writers with the dual word.  "Come/Cum" inside me.  What birth control was she using anyway?  If it's a diagram, it makes even more sense.

 Except, that is not what she said -- she said she wanted to feel him inside her.  Much sadder. 

[misstwpherecool]

May be I'm miss reading but I think they are quietly laying the ground work for a defection of Oleg's dad and/or wife let alone Oleg. They spoke how his mother couldn't come to phone etc. Oleg's dad seems to be showing disappointment if frustration with the war in Afghanistan. Could this be a twist by the season final?

[sistermagpie]

I've been saying Philip's skating on very thin ice with lots of sharp rocks underneath for a really long time.  For as long as I've been saying it, you've been disagreeing with me.  It's been a good debate!  I think we are both about to find out.  Ha!

 

 

Heh -- it's true! But I think we're definitely seeing the same things. There's no way that Philip rebelling against the KGB isn't a huge thing. In fact, it's probably also important to look at how Elizabeth is moving in the same direction. She's just doing it more slowly. In a way I guess the biggest reason to think that it's not going the way that you say is that...it seems to be heading that way. The show loves to zig when you expect it to zag!

 

I don't see the KGB as a forgiving or caring bunch, and as far as anything disloyal?  Yeah, look at Nina.  Or William's wife.  She's a better example.  She WAS Philip.

 

 

Of course, this does raise the question of exactly what went on with William's wife. She couldn't have been exactly like Philip, right? So what did she do? Seems like it was a while ago--how long did she last? Doesn't seem like William turned her in. She's obviously a cautionary tale. (And how weird that Philip didn't ask about it. It would behoove him to do so, since he wants to stay with his family presumably!)

 

Sending Philip back to the USSR or threatening it is one of the most dramatic things the show could do so it does seem irresistible, though Gabriel would probably counsel against it for Elizabeth's sake and Claudia would probably back him up. But then, if there's two things the KGB seems to be into it's obedience/loyalty and greed. They're not willing to pull the Jennings out when they've been outed to a minister because they want the operation to continue, so they'd have to have a good reason to want to pull out Philip and so lose his assets. Or maybe just new management. I remember in the case of the spy Agent Zigzag I think he was a great spy and then he got handed over to somebody who just disapproved of him and screwed him over.

 

I missed that too. Also did they say found a "dead" Clarke in Atlanta? Didn't Gadd mention something about death certificates. Using IDs of dead people, isn't that how it works for false ids in the spy world. Also wasn't Atlanta where the dead KGB family operated out of?

 

 

I don't think the Connors were in Atlanta...I can't remember where they were from. Somewhere close enough they could drive to their house. I think, iirc, that they had found 2 Clark Westerfields and one was 35 and a lawyer in Atlanta so they were checking him out. Gaad then asked "Any death certificates" like he was asking them to check for death certificates for a Clark Westerfield to see if he just stole is ID. 

[AliShibaz]

From: misstwpherecool

 

"May be I'm miss reading but I think they are quietly laying the ground work for a defection of Oleg's dad and/or wife let alone Oleg. They spoke how his mother couldn't come to phone etc. Oleg's dad seems to be showing disappointment if frustration with the war in Afghanistan. Could this be a twist by the season final?"

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Sorry. I have not yet figured out how to quote a previous post in this forum. I'll try to learn how ASAP.

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Well ... anything is possible. But I'd be surprised if anything like this were to happen because ....

 

When I ask myself just where could the story go from there?      ...... or ......

What kind of "legs" would this development have? ...

 

My conclusion has to be there is precious little that could develop from such an event. Suppose Oleg were to arrange somehow (prob with Stan's help) for his father to come to the USA, how much could the USA benefit from a Minsiter of Transportation? If he were in charge of weapons or the army or navy or airforce or anything to do with intelligence, then ... maybe.

 

But, it seems to me the USA has little to gain from the USSR's system of transportation. It's way behind the USA's system. The fact that he was unable to do anything to help Oleg save Nina is a strong clue as to his value to the USSR. His value would seem to be very little. I doubt he would have much value.

 

However, in order for me to make a good argument, I really should be able to offer you some kind of explanation as to what was going on with that phone call. Why would they show us that? For that,  I just have no explanation.

 

But ... by the same token, remember Henry sitting at his computer and talking with his mother and sister? What was the significance of their conversation? Why would the show bother to include that? It seemed very worthless to me. Seems to me there was just no reason for including that conversation in the show. I just can't give you any explanation for that. So ... what?  Could it be an intentional red herring? I have no idea. It is all just very strange and worthless. What can be said about that? No value. No explanation.

 

However, please remember that if any one member of a family does defect, they are leaving the other family members in a fair bit of trouble. Oleg's family would be in trouble if one or more of them defected. The Jennings would be in a lot of trouble if any one or more members were to go to Stan and the FBI and blab what they know. All of that just seems highly unlikely to me.

 

What do you think?

Edited April 21, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Umbelina]

I did think it was funny where Gabriel is listening to the sounds of Martha having sex.  My thought at the moment was "Skeletor is not amused."

I think he was thinking what a loss it would be to lose Philip, and how very hard Philip's job is.  He knows the last thing Philip wanted to do right then was that.

 

My first thought when Philip was leaving was, "Couldn't he have left a note? If your S.O. is in a deep sleep when you leave, and you don't want that person to worry, leave a note!"

 

 

Spies are generally very careful about things like leaving notes around.  I know what you mean though.  This was a very quick op, he probably thought he'd be back before she woke.

 

Why didn't Gabriel show up at the safe house in disguise? Now she knows what he looks like, too.

 

Go back to the FBI, Martha. Spill your guts. Get those sumbitches.

It would be real tricky killing Phillip. Paige would freak out if she suspected KGB.

Didn't Philip just blindside Gabe by showing up there with Martha in tow?  It was all very fast, so maybe no time to even get a disguise.  Also, Gabe's sick, and he's not really an operative, he's a handler, other people do the disguise stuff, not him. 

 

Paige might freak out, but I seriously doubt they would tell her they killed him.  It would be an accident of some sort.  However, IF they did tell her, it would be in the manner of a threat.  Paige still has a mother and a little brother that could also be killed.  "Quit fucking around little girl, welcome to the KGB!"

 

I would like to add something to the discussion that may have been overlooked...when Paige asks Henry to use his computer for her school work, he replies sure,but they have no printer. Elizabeth, without thinking twice, tells Paige, no problem, you can use the printer in our travel office.

So Paige will now have access to the office. Maybe that's not such a good idea, Liz.

 

Agree that it means something, but not sure what it will mean.  Maybe the office, but my guess is the printer.

 Except, that is not what she said -- she said she wanted to feel him inside her.  Much sadder. 

She said 'come inside me' which a recapper caught as a possible 'cum inside me.'  She said she wanted to feel him inside her as well.

 

Heh -- it's true! But I think we're definitely seeing the same things. There's no way that Philip rebelling against the KGB isn't a huge thing. In fact, it's probably also important to look at how Elizabeth is moving in the same direction. She's just doing it more slowly. In a way I guess the biggest reason to think that it's not going the way that you say is that...it seems to be heading that way. The show loves to zig when you expect it to zag!

 

--------

 

Sending Philip back to the USSR or threatening it is one of the most dramatic things the show could do so it does seem irresistible, though Gabriel would probably counsel against it for Elizabeth's sake and Claudia would probably back him up. But then, if there's two things the KGB seems to be into it's obedience/loyalty and greed. They're not willing to pull the Jennings out when they've been outed to a minister because they want the operation to continue, so they'd have to have a good reason to want to pull out Philip and so lose his assets. Or maybe just new management. I remember in the case of the spy Agent Zigzag I think he was a great spy and then he got handed over to somebody who just disapproved of him and screwed him over.

 

As another poster said, it's probably time to pull them all out, it's collapsing around them.  The KGB really wants Paige though.

 

Gabe has also been around long enough to know that he also must be damn careful here.  He could be in trouble with the KGB no matter what he does now, because of Philip.  He will try to cover his own ass, if he can.  He lost two valuable agents?  He could live his days out in the Gulag.  He fails to be honest about Philip's actions here and they find out?  Dead man walking.

 

AliShibaz

 

In the bottom right edge of the post you want to quote there is this sign.  " 

Click that and you will be quoting them, you can quote more than one post at a time.

 

Agree with many of your points, the printer and Henry getting so good at the computer WILL come into play.  Families were punished as a way to coerce people, or threaten them.  For a good guess about what will happen with Oleg, and why "Transportation" is important at this particular time in history, go to the spoiler thread here, there is a very good possibility being talked about there. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Umbelina

[AliShibaz]

Earlier, I said that I found some excellent observations in this thread. I would like to now explain just what they were.

 

They came from Umbellina who noted that Gabriel should and would have worn some kind of disguise when he entered the house. It seemed like a big problem to me that Gabriel would give Phillip flack over showing Martha what he really looked like while at the same time he failed to wear a disguise.

 

Also, the issue of taking proper care not to let Martha just leave the house. It was more than just failing to leave a note. It would have been fairly easy to have handled that situation much better than they did. They really did make a mess of that. Shameful!

 

 

Note: I edited this post to change the name "Stan" to "Phillip". I had originally mistakenly used the name "Stan" as in ...

"It seemed like a big problem to me that Gabriel would give Stan flack ... "

But, I changed it to "Phillip" because using "Stan" was an error.

Edited April 22, 2016 by AliShibaz