Doctor Strange (2016)

[DollEyes]

  Here is the thread for the big-screen version of Doctor Strange, which is yet another Marvel origins story, this time starring Benedict Cumberbatch in the title role. The film co-stars Rachel McAdams, Chiwetel Ejiofor, Mads Mikkelsen & Tilda Swinton. Box-office wise, if the film's good enough, I predict that while it might not make as much as, say, The Avengers movies, it could do better than expected, ala Ant-Man & Guardians Of the Galaxy. The trailer's going to debut on April 12th on Jimmy Kimmel Live:

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/04/06/doctor-strange-trailer-to-debut-next-week-on-jimmy-kimmel-live

 

 

[Petunia13]

Mads Mikkelsen and Tilda Swinton look a lil a like.

[JustaPerson]

 

Why does Tilda Swinton looks like a chinese monk? Benedict Cumberbatch with an American accent will never not be weird. The man was born to speak with a English accent!

[Ruby25]

I know, why didn't they just let him do his normal accent???

 

Or was that his choice, wanting to do it differently? I'm thinking it probably was, I'm sure Marvel hired him assuming he'd be doing the usual thing people wanted to see. I gotta say, it sounds so weird, it's kind of distracting.

[Kromm]

It looks neat, but clearly one of Barnaby Clambersnatch's skills is NOT accents.

[revbfc]

He's doing a Dr House impression.

[JessePinkman]

He's doing a Dr House impression.

 

I was trying to figure out who he reminded me of! Thank you!

 

Three things:

Not every male hero needs an origin movie, Marvel.

That wig is truly awful.

I get why Marvel would want to avoid the racist implications of having the Ancient One be Asian but Tilda Swinton is nearly in yellowface here...

[OakGoblinFly]

I thought that some of the scenes were gorgeous and very trippy (rather appropriate for the movie's theme).

[Demented Daisy]

I'm getting a Matrix-y vibe.  Not sure that's what they were going for....

[Traveller519]

Ummm, Yay?

 

I've known Doctor Strange is a Marvel Character, I don't know much about him specifically. This Trailer didn't really change anything for me. It's a brooding Benadict Cumberbatch getting the Batman Begins treatment in Inception-land.

 

I guess the visuals are cool considering they just wrapped shooting, but if it didn't have the Marvel Tag on it, I would have slid past this without so much as noticing.

[SeanC]

Not every male hero needs an origin movie, Marvel.

Doctor Strange isn't Spider-Man; basically nobody knows his origin.  And Strange's journey from arrogant neurosurgeon to master of mysticism is pretty psychologically significant.

[Dandesun]

I really like Dr. Strange. I'm really enjoying his current comic and he just showed up in All-New All-Different X-Men to engage with super sciencey time displaced Hank McCoy (who thinks magic is a cheat.) Chris Bachalo has been drawing the Dr. Strange book and he's suitably weird and bizarre in a way I honestly don't think any movie can replicate... but that's fine. I'm not expecting them to do the impossible.

 

The visuals in the trailer are very good and very weird which is the whole point. His last name is Strange... things NEED to be weird. And I'm very interested in them bringing the mystic side of the Marvel Universe in... because there's crazy shit out there.

[VCRTracking]

I loved how trippy the trailer was. I like looking into a different aspect of the MCU.

[vb68]

 

Doctor Strange isn't Spider-Man; basically nobody knows his origin.

 

Exactly what I was going to say.  I think this character absolutely needs an origin story.

[JessePinkman]

Doctor Strange isn't Spider-Man; basically nobody knows his origin.  And Strange's journey from arrogant neurosurgeon to master of mysticism is pretty psychologically significant.

 

Eh, he doesn't seem interesting enough for a whole movie, it's the same way I felt about Ant-Man. 

[DollEyes]

 Love the trailer. It was a bit derivative in spots, but it was intriguing anyway. I'd much rather see Dr. Strange's origin story than the umpteenth reboot of Spider-Man. 

 

 

 

 

 

Benedict Cumberbatch with am American accent will never not be weird. The man was born to speak with a British accent!

 

 

It looks neat, but clearly one of Barnaby Clambersnatch's skills is NOT accents.

 

 

I respectfully disagree. I thought Benedict Cumberbatch did great American accents in August: Osage County, Black Mass & 12 Years A Slave. 

 

 

Eh, he doesn't seem interesting enough for a whole movie, it's the same way I felt about Ant-Man.

 

   Ant-Man is in Captain America: Civil War & will be in Ant-Man & The Wasp. If Doctor Strange is successful, he could be in more Marvel movies and have at least one sequel in the future. 

 

  Fun fact: Cumberbatch spent a year teaching English to Tibetan monks when he was 19. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by DollEyes

[JessePinkman]

Ant-Man is in Captain America: Civil War & will be in Ant-Man & The Wasp. If Doctor Strange is successful, he could be in more Marvel movies and have at least one sequel in the future. 

 

Okay? And Doctor Strange is for sure going to be in Infinity War, not sure I get your point.

Edited April 13, 2016 by JessePinkman

[SeanC]

Eh, he doesn't seem interesting enough for a whole movie, it's the same way I felt about Ant-Man. 

Interesting as opposed to what?  That's the most significant character development the character is going to receive.

 

There are some origin stories that are little more than "how'd you get your powers?", which are the kind you can skip; and others which are psychologically important but are so well known that it would feel repetitive to keep doing them (any superhero filmed multiple times gets into this territory) without a compelling reason.  Strange's both goes to the heart of his character and is unknown to the general audience; doing his origin story is both compelling and invests the audience in his character via watching him become a hero.

Edited April 13, 2016 by SeanC

[HoodlumSheep]

Visuals look great, but I'm just not feeling Tilda Swinton. :(

I feel like this movie might end up more on par with the Thor movies (good but not spectacular).

Edited April 13, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[JessePinkman]

Interesting as opposed to what?

 

I don't find Doctor Strange interesting enough to warrant a stand-alone movie. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

[AimingforYoko]

Visuals look great, but I'm just not feeling Tilda Swinton. :(

I feel like this movie might end up more on par with the Thor movies (good but not spectacular).

As I said in the MCU thread, I do not get the casting there. Especially as she's playing the role.

Edited April 13, 2016 by AimingforYoko

[SeanC]

I don't find Doctor Strange interesting enough to warrant a stand-alone movie. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Then criticizing its being an origin story is kind of beside the point, I should think.

 

Strange's area of expertise is so different from other MCU characters that he makes the most sense as a solo character.

[Kromm]

Doctor Strange isn't Spider-Man; basically nobody knows his origin.  And Strange's journey from arrogant neurosurgeon to master of mysticism is pretty psychologically significant.

Agreed. You DO have to explain who he is and why he's where he is and knows what he knows. The only alternative is to make him totally mysterious, and you can only pull that off if he's a guest character first in a whole series of other things as that (as a protagonist, and a new character, you can't really get away with that). 

[JustaPerson]

 

Looking over Dr. Strange's origin (does this count as a spoiler? lol :/ ) Tilda Swinton's character is supposed to be asian? I wouldn't say I have a problem with it, considering people would freak if an asian person were cast as a ~mystical~ mentor. It's really damned if they do, damned if they don't. Plus it's Tilda Swinton. Though maybe an asian woman would have sufficed with being gender-bending and truer to the source material. Though it seems that they're already race-bending with Ejiofor's character (cue the offended "POCs are always the bad guys" outrage again).

Edited April 14, 2016 by JustaPerson

[Kromm]

considering people would freak if an asian person were cast as a ~mystical~ mentor.

I honestly look at the notion of people freaking out that an actual Asian might have been used for the role of The Ancient One and shake my head. The un-PC thing is Strange himself becoming this master of Eastern magic, not an actual Asian being so. It's just this weird world we live in that people are getting this backwards.  The Ancient One is Asian. Changing that is the more racist of the two options.

 

Not that I'm opposed to Strange (I mean think about it--I actually know that character is called "The Ancient One"!). I just think it's ludicrous that people are channeling their ridiculous need to find fault to the total wrong thing.

Could the Ancient One have been a woman? Sure. Don't see why not. But an Asian woman, not Tilda Freaking Swinton. Bless her for being pleasantly weird and such, and I'm not exactly going to be boycotting the movie or anything, but talk about an idiot casting move.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Kromm

[Dandesun]

Except that Strange doesn't become the master of Eastern magic. He becomes the Sorcerer Supreme who uses artifacts that are definitely not Eastern, phrases that are definitely not Eastern and crosses dimensions and fights creatures that are not Eastern. Unless 'By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggarth' is an Eastern thing I'm not privy to.

 

He does go to Tibet, he does meet the Ancient One and is taught by who/whatever that his. His greatest foe is Dormammu who is a fiery hellish demon thingy. Strange doesn't deal with strictly Eastern magic, whatever that might actually be.

[Kromm]

Except that Strange doesn't become the master of Eastern magic. He becomes the Sorcerer Supreme who uses artifacts that are definitely not Eastern, phrases that are definitely not Eastern and crosses dimensions and fights creatures that are not Eastern. Unless 'By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggarth' is an Eastern thing I'm not privy to.

 

He does go to Tibet, he does meet the Ancient One and is taught by who/whatever that his. His greatest foe is Dormammu who is a fiery hellish demon thingy. Strange doesn't deal with strictly Eastern magic, whatever that might actually be.

Well, okay, I'm corrected. But is any of that intended to say why Tilda Swinton is now The Ancient One, and why people would apparently cry racism and shit bricks if the character was actually Asian? At worst Strange was supposed to be a student of multiple mentors, I think, and Whitening the character of The Ancient One just seems like robbing a role of diversity for NO GOOD REASON other than some bizarre fear that some people would scream and yell that "Asian = Wise Mystic" is somehow an inherent stereotype and that that's worse than Whitewashing.

The key word there is "Tibet". I can't tell from that trailer, but have they also moved where he goes so they at least don't have the ridiculous conceit of a white lady leading Tibetian monks?

[JessePinkman]

Then criticizing its being an origin story is kind of beside the point, I should think.

 

Sigh...I should have just said that not ever male hero needs a solo movie.

[SeanC]

Except that Strange doesn't become the master of Eastern magic. He becomes the Sorcerer Supreme who uses artifacts that are definitely not Eastern, phrases that are definitely not Eastern and crosses dimensions and fights creatures that are not Eastern. Unless 'By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggarth' is an Eastern thing I'm not privy to.

 

He does go to Tibet, he does meet the Ancient One and is taught by who/whatever that his. His greatest foe is Dormammu who is a fiery hellish demon thingy. Strange doesn't deal with strictly Eastern magic, whatever that might actually be.

Doctor Strange's origin story is definitely Orientalist, even if his actual magic isn't particularly Eastern-inspired.  Hence not just the Ancient One but his Asian manservant.

 

Casting Swinton definitely seems like them trying to play that down, but considering that they're keeping Wong I think they might have been better-served by keeping the old master as Asian as well. It doesn't bother me that much, personally, but I can see why some people would be.

[Kromm]

Okay. Wait. They're keeping the Asian manservant? And yet are somehow afraid that an Asian mystic is too racially charged?

 

Am I in some alternate universe?

[nobodyyoucare]

Okay. Wait. They're keeping the Asian manservant? And yet are somehow afraid that an Asian mystic is too racially charged?

 

Am I in some alternate universe?

When you listen to the SJW you realize that they live in bizarre world. They wanted Iron Fist to be Asian and indeed wanted the Ancient One to not be Asian. They wanted James Bond to be black.

[Kromm]

When you listen to the SJW you realize that they live in bizarre world. They wanted Iron Fist to be Asian and indeed wanted the Ancient One to not be Asian. They wanted James Bond to be black.

First. who or what is SJW?

 

Secondly, what does that last one have to do with anything?  I can think of actual reasons for James Bond to be black. For one thing, he's from a country with about 2 million black people in it's population, and almost as many mixed race people. Not a huge percentage, admittedly, but a fairly decent number nonetheless. 

 

How many British-accented white ladies reside in Tibet though? I suppose as many as a few dozen, right?  Of course they'd be the leaders though. Right?  

 

Actually I don't see a huge issue if Iron Fist were Asian either.  The reason the Ancient One being race changed is offensive is not because it (gasp!) dared to change the original. Who #*ing cares about that? It's offensive because it seems to be deliberately taking an Asian person from an authoritative position, a character who's a model, and replacing him with Whitey. For no reason. And apparently leaving intact the Asian guy who's the servant instead.

[JustaPerson]

An SJW is apparently one of those people (perhaps on tumblr) who take PC a bit too far. It took me a while to figure it out too.

 

I'm asian and while I don't love it I think people would make a big fuss if they'd cast an asian person too, maybe a bigger one since there doesn't seem to be a huge one right now. But yea if they were going to change the Ancient One then they should have changed the manservant too. I still think an asian woman would have been the best compromise in this case. I don't see the huge deal with Iron Fist not being asian either (though it would have been nice). 

[Perfect Xero]

There's really no reason that they couldn't have taken the Ancient One out of Tibet if they were casting a non-Asian actor in the role (or even if they'd kept an Asian actor in the role). Strange could have learned magic in Brazil or Alberta or Scotland (nah, a movie about learning magic in Scotland would never be a success).

 

 I respectfully disagree. I thought Benedict Cumberbatch did great American accents in August: Osage County, Black Mass & 12 Years A Slave. 

 

I have seen neither, but I suspect that might have something to do with him using a Southern accent in those films rather than the General American/Newsreader accent he's going for here.

 

There are certain similarities between the Southern US Accent and the RP UK accent (non-rhoticity for example) that probably make it easier to pull off.

[nobodyyoucare]

The whole point of Iron Fist is a fish out of water tale. Guess what an Asian in that role going to Asia to learn martial arts is not fish out of water. It fits a non Asian background better. As for James Bond history and the mission history a black guy wouldn't fit the character.

 

You don't change an established character background to fit some pc agenda. That is not only lazy but an insult. 

 

You want more non white characters or female characters then create them don't change established ones.

 

I enjoyed Iron Man 3 change of the Mandarin to avoid stereotyping because in the movie it made sense story wise and was a nice twist on the character plus the whole short on the dvd/bluray poking fun at the people angry at the portrayal,

 

I disagree with the explanation giving as to why Tilda Swinton was chosen and the ancient one be chosen and that the character is androgyneous. Seems on the surface a lazy way to have a woman character in the film to appease demands from the pc crowd. Maybe it makes more sense and is more acceptable when the character is introduced in the movie.   .

[HoodlumSheep]

An SJW is apparently one of those people (perhaps on tumblr) who take PC a bit too far. It took me a while to figure it out too.

I'm asian and while I don't love it I think people would make a big fuss if they'd cast an asian person too, maybe a bigger one since there doesn't seem to be a huge one right now. But yea if they were going to change the Ancient One then they should have changed the manservant too. I still think an asian woman would have been the best compromise in this case. I don't see the huge deal with Iron Fist not being asian either (though it would have been nice).

I also feel like there'd be backlash either way. Because people would bring up stereotyping as an issue. Edited April 15, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Kromm]

I also feel like there'd be backlash either way. Because people would bring up stereotyping as an issue.

In other words, Mr. Miyagi needs to be scrubbed from our culture too, I suppose. 

 

It really gets me deep in the gut that both sides of this issue seem utterly insane to me. There really is such a thing as insanely overly "PC", then again I squirm at the counter-positioning that also seems to ignore that there ARE diversity issues that can be easily addressed when an opportunity arises.  The lack of perspective and common sense in looking at the actual situations is what gets me.

 

To me this one is simple. There are two Asian characters in question here. One is a servant. A menial.  He's not even potentially cool like Green Hornet's Kato, although admittedly even that one probably needs to be revisited if yet another version of that pops up again.   The other is the scholar, the mentor, who's a powerful leader. And the notion is that someone would have been upset that being a wise spiritual leader is a STEREOTYPE?  Really it just flabbergasts me that the Whitewashing alternative is supposedly the "good" option. Wong, the valet/manservant being around just makes it even worse.

 

On the other hand, just to go back to another character elsewhere we've already discussed, I'll never agree that James Bond's race is something worth protecting. Bond has been a malleable character in his attributes from the moment he came out of this books and into movies. and the entire history of movies and how the actors has changed supports that. This is versus many characters where their exact appearances (and that CAN include race) are crucial to the character. This is not an either/or issue, it's case by case. I'll actually take back my earlier assertion that Iron Fist could be race changed and I wouldn't care. I've thought more about it and it's correct that he has to be white for his story to make sense. But that's a strong-story driven reason. And the case where a character's exact face matters is rare, but does exist too. I'd argue a character like Peter Parker DOES have a specific look where you'd have to really push things to go against it. Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent... have that too. Specific faces that the casting has (wisely) always stuck fairly close to. But James Bond? The portrayals don't even agree on his accent, his hair and eye color has changed too, his height, whether he looks like a suave aristocrat or a street-tough stuffed into a tuxedo... it's all changed and there's a big history now of accepting those changes.

 

I don't care if Tilda Swinton is playing female, or androgynous, or whatever. The damage is done with her simply being non-Asian. The gender is fairly irrelevant--The Ancient One could have been any of the many decent age-appropriate Asian actresses out there, assuming they could find one willing to shave her head, I guess. Could it have been as simply as that? Not finding that? Or the need to put a "name" in the role? 

 

BTW: If they went male, IMO they could have easily cast--admittedly not with a marquee name, with James Hong. He's still working. Admittedly though, if you've ever seen Big Trouble in Little China there might be some baggage with him once having done this: http://i.imgur.com/RjuHJzY.jpg

Edited April 16, 2016 by Kromm

[HoodlumSheep]

It really gets me deep in the gut that both sides of this issue seem utterly insane to me. There really is such a thing as insanely overly "PC", then again I squirm at the counter-positioning that also seems to ignore that there ARE diversity issues that can be easily addressed and can be when an opportunity arises. The lack of perspective and common sense in looking at the actual situations is what gets me.

To me this one is simple. There are two Asian characters in question here. One in a servant. A menial. He's not even potentially cool like Green Hornet's Kato, although admittedly even that one probably needs to be revisited if yet another version of that pops up again. The other is the scholar, the mentor, who's a powerful leader. And the notion is that someone would have been upset that being a wise spiritual leader is a STEREOTYPE? Really it just flabbergasts me that the Whitewashing alternative is supposedly the "good" option. Wong, the valet/manservant being around just makes it even worse.

^ All of this. ^ Edited April 16, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[angora]

For me, the situation is a little like casting Rooney Mara as Tiger Lily in Pan. While the original character as written was racially problematic, I don't see casting a white person as rectifying the problem, just avoiding it. Instead of backing away from the issue, making your film less diverse in the process, why not meet challenge of figuring out how to write/perform this Asian character in a way that's three-dimensional and not stereotypical/uncomfortable?

As for the trailer overall, loved the visuals and the Inception vibe. A little weirded out by Cumberbatch's accent (I agree with the poster who flat that his Southern accent seemed fine, to my non-Southern ears in 12 Years a Slave and August: Osage County, but the generic-American feels off) - hopefully it's just because I'm not used to hearing it from him and it'll be fine once I get used to it. I like Marvel's willingness to branch out and try different things within their genre (TWS as a Cold-War-esque political thriller, GotG as a space opera, Ant-Man as a heist flick, etc.), and this definitely looks like something new for them.

[Bruinsfan]

My assumption is that the role as written may be too physically demanding for James Hong at 87, otherwise he'd have been the best person to cast. (The comics version of the Ancient One mostly sat meditating, gave sage advice, and slipped into comas. But it looks as if s/he is actively practicing martial arts in the trailer, and I'd just as soon one of our living legends not injure himself on set.)

 

Wong has actually been treated fairly well as a character worthy of respect in recent decades. He's a highly skilled martial artist and a quite knowledgeable assistant to Strange in the mystic arts, although he lacks the aptitude/raw power to be a world class wizard in his own right.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[Kromm]

Hong was just an example. Assuming CGI couldn't correct the issue (I'd bet Swinton isn't doing 99.9% of what her character seems to do either), I'd think there are hopefully at least a few other qualified male or female Asian actors they could have used. 

 

The problem with Wong is mostly in context. Nobody's saying he's never done or said anything worthwhile as a character. But to look at the IDEA of Wong and think it's acceptable when the idea of a venerable wise Asian leader somehow is "too stereotyped"? Making the case for Wong is almost irrelevant IMO. 

Edited April 17, 2016 by Kromm

[Kromm]

George Takei, as usual, speaks truths that other people don't have the balls to:

The Vulture: George Takei Calmly Dismantles All of Marvel’s Excuses for Its Doctor Strange Casting

Oh my.

A few highlights. Cheer if you want to (I did):

Quote

"So let me get this straight. You cast a white actress so you wouldn’t hurt sales … in Asia? This backpedaling is nearly as cringeworthy as the casting. Marvel must think we’re all idiots," writes Takei. "Marvel already addressed the Tibetan question by setting the action and the Ancient One in Kathmandu, Nepal, in the film. It wouldn't have mattered to the Chinese government by that point whether the character was white or Asian, as it was already in another country. So this is a red herring, and it's insulting that they expect us to buy their explanation. They cast Tilda because they believe white audiences want to see white faces. Audiences, too, should be aware of how dumb and out of touch the studios think we are."

Quote

To those who say, "She an actress, this is fiction," remember that Hollywood has been casting white actors in Asian roles for decades now, and we can't keep pretending there isn't something deeper at work here. If it were true that actors of Asian descent were being offered choice roles in films, these arguments might prevail. But there has been a long standing practice of taking roles that were originally Asian and rewriting them for white actors to play, leaving Asians invisible on the screen and underemployed as actors. This is a very real problem, not an abstract one. It is not about political correctness, it is about correcting systemic exclusion. Do you see the difference?

Quote

I'm not against colorblind casting. That is to say, when there is a role that can be played by a black actor or an Asian one (such as Hermione in the play in London), then I welcome it. But here we are talking about the systematic erasure of Asian faces from film and media. It is so prevalent that even when there IS an Asian role that could be played by an Asian actor, it is given instead to a white actor. Do you not see the issue here? We are talking about systemic exclusion, lack of opportunity, and invisibility of a whole segment of our society, because Hollywood is afraid to take chances with ethnic actors. Instead, we are the butt of jokes (as the Oscars telecast showed) or are cast only in certain roles that continue to marginalize us and send signals to society that we are not leading men and women.

Takei = Righteous. The man is so right, and is the perfect person to speak on this. Because of his popularity maybe people will come out of denial long enough to listen.

[JessePinkman]

George Takei is so spot on, great write-up. The idea that the "neutral" option is white is absolutely mind-boggling.

[shang yiet]

I also agree with Takei. That excuse was ridiculous. Just cast one of Asia's most popular actor or actress and watch sales of the movie soar all over Asia. As it is, you're actually hurting sales in Asia. Tilda Swinton is not really that well-known or popular in Asia.

[Kromm]

8 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I also agree with Takei. That excuse was ridiculous. Just cast one of Asia's most popular actor or actress and watch sales of the movie soar all over Asia. As it is, you're actually hurting sales in Asia. Tilda Swinton is not really that well-known or popular in Asia.

I DO think there's a possible way Marvel... no lets be honest here... in this case it would be DISNEY... might have feared Chinese reactions out of proportion. That doesn't make their decision any better, because there were other ways to address it I'd think, but one has to consider the new relationships Disney has forged with China in the past few years--untold billions for not one but TWO Disney Parks inside China (Hong Kong, and now Shanghai). That's right. As of this June there will be as many Disney locations in China as exist in the two entire American continents (I always wondered why they never tried to open one in Brazil). 

So the Chinese have a lot of pull with Disney now, and hence Marvel. I could easily see someone at Disney going overboard with caution and leaning on the movie production folks to do something this boneheaded. I mean as I said I think George speaks truth that it's bullshit, and that perhaps there's also some more subtle racial aspect to it, but it was AFTER I wrote that earlier post that I started thinking about how PART of this could be true, even if at the same time it was something blown out of proportion leading to a ridiculous result.  The fact that Disney has SO much money sunk into China now seems to be a big game changer, so I can see how they'd be overreactive pussies about a lot of stuff.

It's funny that so much of this is CGIed, because the Park is done. I mean it's actually apparently technically open now to advance visitors. This video though was put up in February so you'd think more of the footage would be photographic vs. animated. 

[Kromm]

Okay, wait, some clever person flew a drone over it last week. I wonder how you get away with that in China without being visited by the Police the next day? Anyway, even with all the lights off (it IS a day scene) and from above (not always the best vantage) you can see the Billions sunk into this quite easily. And I'm fairly certain the Marvel characters and movie tie ins are a big part of this (as are the Pixar ones and the Muppets).

 

[Zuleikha]

So the Chinese have a lot of pull with Disney now, and hence Marvel. I could easily see someone at Disney going overboard with caution and leaning on the movie production folks to do something this boneheaded.

K'un Lun was moved to Nepal to avoid the Tibet issue. China had nothing to do with whitewashing the Ancient One. It's really gross seeing fandom circles try to blame China in order to give Marvel a pass, especially since it makes no sense. It's like people seem to think that the only choices were Tibetan man or white woman, which no, that's not really how the world works.

nd the notion is that someone would have been upset that being a wise spiritual leader is a STEREOTYPE?

That is another one that drives me up a wall because it's such a strawman. Sure, if the Ancient One had been written to be a stereotype, then yes, people would have been pissed off. The solution to that is to not write the character as a stereotype. There have been articles written criticizing the Asian-master-martial-artist trope as a trope (often in the context of said martial artist being a sidekick/villain/otherwise underdeveloped), but I can't think of any obvious examples of widespread complaints about a well-developed Asian/Asian-American character being a martial artist.... although that may be because it's hard to think of any examples of a well-developed martial artist Asian/Asian-American character outside of Hong Kong produced films. But after the Hand on Netflix, I feel safe saying Marvel isn't really too concerned about pissing off the Asian-American community with stereotypical portrayals.

 

The whole point of Iron Fist is a fish out of water tale. Guess what an Asian in that role going to Asia to learn martial arts is not fish out of water. It fits a non Asian background better.

I'm going to guess when you wrote that line, you're picturing an Asian immigrant or Asian-American who grew up with immigrant parents. But the first major wave of Asian immigration started in the mid-1800s. There are many Asian-Americans who are indeed fish out of water going to Asia to learn martial arts. 

[Kromm]

10 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

K'un Lun was moved to Nepal to avoid the Tibet issue. China had nothing to do with whitewashing the Ancient One. It's really gross seeing fandom circles try to blame China in order to give Marvel a pass, especially since it makes no sense. It's like people seem to think that the only choices were Tibetan man or white woman, which no, that's not really how the world works.

I agreed with that initially, but have rethought it a bit. I don't for a minute believe that China asked for this in any kind of active fashion. What I think might have happened is Disney being chicken-shit and reactive based on them pussyfooting around the Chinese. Who they are huge business parters with for the Parks, who can approve or block movie releases, etc. etc. I can completely see some stuffed suit at Disney--note I said Disney, not Marvel--sending down a notice that every effort should be made not to "offend" the Chinese, and that maybe this whole plot with monks should simply be avoided. And Marvel maybe cooking up the race change to try and pacify a paranoid Disney exec. 

The fact that it's bullshit, that the mere location change from Tibet to Nepal should have been enough, doesn't account for the human piece of this. That corporations do stupid shit for stupid reasons a lot. Over-reactions. This doesn't let Marvel off the hook, IMO, it just shifts the motive to something more realistic. Although I do also think that "star power" was part of this too. The movie needed another famous name on the poster, someone thought, not some lesser known older Asian actor who wouldn't do that for them. 

Okay, here's what I would have tried if they needed a name. Forget the idea of "bald monk" (of any race), and really go with the idea that The Ancient One is timeless. Then go see if you can hire Lucy Liu during her break time from her TV show. An Asian female!  And a name people know! And yes, likely not bald, but that's the smallest thing to give up. Heck, even Ming-Na Wen could have worked, although not as many people know her name (despite her voice being in a very big Disney movie). Or again, I think we only hit the surface of possible Asian men they could have used--especially if they ditch the "old and bald" requirement. 

Wait, here's a crazy idea. Jackie Chan. The fact that he's 62 and not really capable of the same level of stunt work matters not. In fact, it means you could simply realistically play him as older if they went that way, and use the same stuntdoubling and CGI-ing we know they used for the nice white lady who wound up doing it instead. And does the film really require good acting (since Chan really isn't a great actor)?  Probably not. And if he isn't willing to wear a bald cap, or if they can't CGI away his hair, again, I don't see the problem with a non-bald Ancient One. Sure Monks are bald. But these are non-traditional monks--that's almost implicit in the story.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Kromm

[JessePinkman]

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

Okay, here's what I would have tried if they needed a name. Forget the idea of "bald monk" (of any race), and really go with the idea that The Ancient One is timeless. Then go see if you can hire Lucy Liu during her break time from her TV show. An Asian female!  And a name people know! And yes, likely not bald, but that's the smallest thing to give up. Heck, even Ming-Na Wen could have worked, although not as many people know her name (despite her voice being in a very big Disney movie). Or again, I think we only hit the surface of possible Asian men they could have used--especially if they ditch the "old and bald" requirement. 

Ming-Na is about as famous as Tilda Swinton to the general populace if you ask me (who wants to fight?!). She doesn't have the "prestige" or whatever but she's a Disney princess, come on!

[Zuleikha]

Ming-Na Wen is already in the Marvel universe. She's Agent May on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. So she's not available to be the Ancient One (although I'd LOVE her to get a cameo or actual role in one of the movies!). But yes, getting a Chinese or Japanese name actor or Asian-American actor (such as Daniel Dae Kim or Maggie Q) would have been less problematic. Or a non-white actress since the MCU has no significant female roles of color. It's not like they needed someone with Tilda Swinton's name recognition.

Basically, they had a lot of options for how to handle the Ancient One and while they didn't choose the absolute worse, there were certainly better ones.