S02.E17: Flash Back

[Trini]

"Fellow Time Masters, I come to you with a new initiative. We will go to Central City in the early 21th Century. Anytime Barry Allen, alias the Flash, even thinks of travelling through time, we will pick him the nearest heavy object and smack him until the notion passes from his head. His stupid, well-meaning head. We're okay with him running anywhere in his own time, we're fine with him exploring other universes willy-nilly. But time? Nuh-uh. The man is a putz, and he needs to be stopped."

I feel like the Time Masters from LOT really need to focus on Barry and leave the Waverider alone.  Barry's the one who actually makes noticeable changes to the timelines yet they ignore him.

You know, I like my heroes flawed.  But Barry's idiocy annoys the living hell out of me.  He doesn't just do stupid things.  He does the most stupid thing EVER.  Let's tamper with the timeline...brilliant!  And The Time Masters are worried about Vandal Savage?  Please let Barry get a visit from the Time Masters!

 

Time Masters: "Why do you think we've only got one guy going after Rip Hunter? All the rest of our captains are trying to catch The Flash and Reverse Flash!"

[Primetimer]

And he's not too happy about Barry's latest time-travel shenanigans.

Read the story

[Aeryn13]

Barry`s time-travelling plans are horrific - has he forgotten that this was what led to the whole Zoom debacle in the first place? - but seeing old evil Wells back again was great. The actor had so much fun. Loved that it took him basically no time to figure it out.

 

And the one-on-one scene with Barry handcuffed to the wheelchair was fantastic. But it was topped by all their following "stop talking, you idiot" scenes later on. Wells desperate little gesturing and eyerolls were a thing of beauty. Cisco`s mind being blown was also funny.

 

So all Hartley needed to basically turn good guy was this scene in the cell where he saved them all due to self preservation? I mean, that was the impetus apparently. Gee, wonder how many more of their metahuman prisoners they could reform if they tried just one thing.

 

I seriously do not get why everyone is so convinced their Jay Gerrick was a monster now. They know about multiple universes, they know about evil Doppelgangers. Do they find it unfeasible that Jay-Zoom would kill his own doppelganger? I thought Jay was a bland character but I hope the truth comes out, he certainly didn`t deserve "friends" who`d throw him over just like that.

[Ruby25]

Same thing with Iris! her realizing one day that along the way she fall in-love with Barry and wanting to marry him does not make their love weak, it does not make Barry some 2nd choice less better than Eddie. It simply means that - Shock!- human beings are able to love more than one person!

Let's not also forget, that Iris lost Eddie not because their love fizzled away but in a very tragic happening, at the prime of their relationship, so yea.. a part of Iris, like a part of my mom, is always going to still love Eddie.

That sucks for Barry. All of last season showed us how much he loved and had always loved Iris, there was no one else, there never can be.

 

And they continue to insist that Eddie was this great love of Iris's life, so much so that she can't let go of him a year after he died and retconned him into her fiance when he wasn't. So she'll basically never love Barry as much as she loved Eddie, and never love Barry as much as he loves her.

 

Why would they do that to what's supposed to be the show's main, epic love story? It could never reach those epic levels if she's always going to love someone who's dead, and would have preferred to be with him had he lived.

 

This isn't about real life, it's about what's being shown on the show. Are we supposed to think this is an epic love story, or just that Barry's love for Iris is epic, but not the other way around? Because that's clearly what we're being shown. For Barry, she's the "one," but for her, Eddie was the one, and Barry will just be the next one.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Ruby25

[Trini]

I don't know; maybe if the Time Wraiths tie into something at the end of the season, that might save this episode. Otherwise, it's just so random.

[futurechemist]

The timewraiths were a total plot device.  They slowly skulk around looking for time travelers messing with the universe.  Except when they can fly as fast as the Flash.  Or when they attack 3 random people who are not time travelers.

To be fair, we really don't know that the only changed thing as that Hartley is good.  That's just the only thing that Barry has noticed so far.  Maybe there'll be a scene with:

 

Iris: Barry are you okay?

 

Barry: What? Why?

 

Iris: You know.  It's been nearly a year since your dad was shanked in prison after you got that final note from Wells/Thawne that said "Fuck you Futureboy.  I know you lied.  Your daddy's going to die in prison."

I don't think that would happen.  Everything went according to Reverse Flash's plan until Barry refused to help and then Eddie killed himself.  So by the time RF realized his plan failed at futureBarry lied, he wouldn't have had time to change the video message he left Barry.

 

Still, was nice to see the banter between RF and Barry, and Tom Cavanaugh playing essentially 3 characters in the same episode.  Wells from Earth 2, Reverse Flash hiding his identity from Star Labs, and Reverse Flash sparring with his archenemy.

[CletusMusashi]

Barry's manners are slipping, I think. This episode was, from Piper's perspective, the first time that the two of them have seen each other, yet he completely neglected to remove his mask and say "Hello, my name is Barry Allen. Also known as The Flash. Pleased to meet you." The nice polite Barry that we know would never go an entire episode without introducing himself to new friends. Or enemies. Or random bystanders. Or dogs. Or squirrels. Or fire hydrants.

[johntfs]

 

So all Hartley needed to basically turn good guy was this scene in the cell where he saved them all due to self preservation? I mean, that was the impetus apparently. Gee, wonder how many more of their metahuman prisoners they could reform if they tried just one thing.

 

It wasn't all Hartley needed but it was a start.  During that year Eobard gets unmasked as a bad guy, so Hartley going after him comes off as a bit more forgivable.  We really don't know what transpires during the Time Wraith year, but it's likely that Caitlin and Cisco treat Hartley pretty decently and in return he becomes more decent,

 

Also, the idea that because Iris loved Eddie her ability to love others is somehow reduced is ridiculous.  One of the cooler moment in Steven Universe is the bit where Rose and Greg admit that in the past they have loved other beings (with the implication that if/when something happens to one of them that they're free to seek other people/being to love).  It was such a nice change from the whole "first love, true love, only love" bullshit that gets pushed in TV and Movies.  Are you currently spending your life with your first crush/serious romance/etc?  Probably not.  Are you somehow diminished because of that?  No, you aren't.

 

 

I don't think that would happen.  Everything went according to Reverse Flash's plan until Barry refused to help and then Eddie killed himself.  So by the time RF realized his plan failed at futureBarry lied, he wouldn't have had time to change the video message he left Barry.

 

Yeah but that was "before" older Barry's visit.  In the previous timeline, Thawn/Well was able to separate the Barry he knew from his archenemy, The Flash.  So, making that video as a "just in case" kindness to Barry was understandable.  Now, though, he's gotten a reminder that "oh yeah, Barry becomes that asshole Flash character that I hate" so Eobard might change his mind about making the video.  So, along with gain Hartley as a friend, he ends up losing his father to prison.

Edited March 30, 2016 by johntfs

[jmonique]

That sucks for Barry. All of last season showed us how much he loved and had always loved Iris, there was no one else, there never can be.

 

And they continue to insist that Eddie was this great love of Iris's life, so much so that she can't let go of him a year after he died and retconned him into her fiance when he wasn't. So she'll basically never love Barry as much as she loved Eddie, and never love Barry as much as he loves her.

 

Why would they do that to what's supposed to be the show's main, epic love story? It could never reach those epic levels if she's always going to love someone who's dead, and would have preferred to be with him had he lived.

 

This isn't about real life, it's about what's being shown on the show. Are we supposed to think this is an epic love story, or just that Barry's love for Iris is epic, but not the other way around? Because that's clearly what we're being shown. For Barry, she's the "one," but for her, Eddie was the one, and Barry will just be the next one.

 

I just don't really see it that way, on-screen, even. I think it has shown that Iris did love him, but she's been grieving and now she's going to start letting Eddie go and move forward with her life.

 

He died last May. She was going to marry him. It's only been about 9-10 months, if the show is on the same time frame. I don't think it's a sign of an epic love, I just think it's a woman grieving but finding the courage to move forward.

[Ruby25]

 

 

Also, the idea that because Iris loved Eddie her ability to love others is somehow reduced is ridiculous.

 

She just won't love Barry as much, or in the all consuming way that he's loved her. At some point I think we were supposed to hope that love would be mutual, but if they insist on inflating Eddie's importance, like this episode really did, then Barry can never really be the "one" for her. Or at least not on this Earth.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't think that the love of one's life has to be the first love, or the one they met first.  I am fine with Iris loving Eddie, but that he wasn't the love of her life. Like Barry is. Or supposed to be.  For Barry, Iris is his first, his only, and that's fine if for Iris, that ultimately, Barry is shown to be the love of her life. Even though I know in comics and the various 'toons/movies I've watched, they've been each others' from the get go.

 

So yeah, based on the comments I've read thus far (haven't seen the episode yet, but will tonight), even if the show runners insist on throwing roadblocks in their way, I want, in the end, if you will, to be shown, that Barry is the love of Iris's life and not sloppy seconds. And yeesh, I hate that I typed that, because I hate that phrase.

[Ruby25]

I don't think that the love of one's life has to be the first love, or the one they met first.  I am fine with Iris loving Eddie, but that he wasn't the love of her life. Like Barry is. Or supposed to be.  For Barry, Iris is his first, his only, and that's fine if for Iris, that ultimately, Barry is shown to be the love of her life. Even though I know in comics and the various 'toons/movies I've watched, they've been each others' from the get go.

 

 

And I think the problem with this is that they have already insisted and shown us, repeatedly, that Eddie was the love of her life. This episode just doubled down on the idea that he was her true love, even if she's eventually going to let him go. And I just don't know why they would do that if we're supposed to root for her and Barry.

 

The show seems far more concerned about showing us Barry's great love for Iris than anything on the other side. Sure, she'll love him, but ever in the way she loved Eddie? How can that be the case after all this, and why should we be okay with that? We're rooting for a love that's great for him, but lesser for her? I don't understand what the point of writing it that way was. I think it was a serious mistake on their part.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Ruby25

[GHScorpiosRule]

And I think the problem with this is that they have already insisted and shown us, repeatedly, that Eddie was the love of her life. This episode just doubled down on the idea that he was her true love, even if she's eventually going to let him go. And I just don't know why they would do that if we're supposed to root for her and Barry.

 

The show seems far more concerned about showing us Barry's great love for Iris than anything on the other side. Sure, she'll love him, but ever in the way she loved Eddie? How can that be the case after all this, and why should we be okay with that? We're rooting for a love that's great for him, but lesser for her? I don't understand what the point of writing it that way was. I think it was a serious mistake on their part.

 

 

Oh yuck.  Yes, I'm 10.

 

You know, I could have sworn that Iris was going to break up with Eddie last season, and not marry him. Or did she change her mind and agree to marry him? Blergh. At this point, I want that thingamajig if it's still around--that AI thingie, to take Iris back to the day of the Tsunami, to remind her WHO she chose. 

 

And I also want a horsie.

 

This is like the reverse of Clark and Lana. Whereas I loathed Clark and Lana and never wanted them to get together and I didn't want Clark with CW's version of "Lois,", I do want Barry and Iris together and fighting crime and lovin' together.

 

These show runners just hate me and won't let me have nice things.

[jmonique]

And I think the problem with this is that they have already insisted and shown us, repeatedly, that Eddie was the love of her life. This episode just doubled down on the idea that he was her true love, even if she's eventually going to let him go. And I just don't know why they would do that if we're supposed to root for her and Barry.

 

The show seems far more concerned about showing us Barry's great love for Iris than anything on the other side. Sure, she'll love him, but ever in the way she loved Eddie? How can that be the case after all this, and why should we be okay with that? We're rooting for a love that's great for him, but lesser for her? I don't understand what the point of writing it that way was. I think it was a serious mistake on their part.

 

They've showed us that he was the love of her life until now, possibly. I've just never had the great sense that this was the end-all, be-all for her.

 

It feels like the writers are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They finally give Iris an episode to showcase her feelings (somewhat), and show signs of moving forward, and it's interpreted as being caught up in a Great Tragic Love.

[Ruby25]

They've showed us that he was the love of her life until now, possibly. I've just never had the great sense that this was the end-all, be-all for her.

 

It feels like the writers are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They finally give Iris an episode to showcase her feelings (somewhat), and show signs of moving forward, and it's interpreted as being caught up in a Great Tragic Love.

We need to see her feelings for Barry, the last thing we needed to see was yet another reiteration that Eddie was the love of her life and she just can't get over him. They just flat out refuse to show us how she feels about Barry, it's been nothing but platonic this entire season. We could have had hints, she could have been kinda sad about Patty- anything to show us that there's something there and always has been. I'm baffled as to why they have refused to do that, it seems like a poor, ill constructed move on the writer's part to never show us that she has even the slightest feelings for Barry in return. Not since the episode where Barry wiped out the timeline have we seen anything that even hints at that.

 

That's mind-boggling to me.

[xyzzy]

Maybe I've been watching too much of The Fosters, but I have always been slightly squicked out by the idea of falling in romantic love with someone you grew up with and share father figures with. So I'm not at all invested in Barry's OTP on this show. I don't begrudge the screen time dedicated to the development of the relationship, but it also fails to move me when Barry takes time out from saving the world in the dumbest way possible to heal Iris' broken heart muscle.

 

Speaking of being dumb, what the hell, Barry? I get that the show is boring if he doesn't make mistakes because all the drama disappears, but he wasn't even trying to act surprised when Wells/Thawne was sitting in a normal chair while he was strapped to the wheelchair. That is the first thing he should have mentioned, not this whole stuttery "wtaf dude" thing he immediately committed to. Wells/Thawne's ability to see through Future Barry would have been even creepier and more disturbing if Barry had actually made an effort. Meh.

 

I guess no new episodes for three weeks or so? It's hard to stay excited about this show with all these breaks.

[benteen]

I liked Barry on Supergirl better than in this episode.  I liked the angst-free, idiot-free portrayal on Supergirl.

[Cthulhudrew]

Exactly. This bugged me to no end once they saw one another. I was thinking, "Yeah, um ... you have like a super metabolism and there's a good chance he's going to wake up sooner than you think." So while they added that maybe the formula wasn't strong enough even though they calculated in his metabolism, I totally expected him to wake up.

 

To add to this: Did Future Barry just leave Past Barry lying in the alley like that? Or did he run him back to his apartment to sleep it off or something? I know neither Barry seems to really take the whole "secret identity" all that seriously they way they tell everyone who he really is (except Patty), but seems kind of dangerous to leave yourself lying around where someone could stumble over you. lol

[VCRTracking]

A Time Wraith better show up on Legends of Tomorrow or this is some contrived bullshit right here.

 

Anyway, that was an incredibly sweet thing Barry did for Iris.

 

Tom Cavanagh continues to impress me on this show. I can't believe this is the same guy who played "Ed".

[driedfruit]

They've showed us that he was the love of her life until now, possibly. I've just never had the great sense that this was the end-all, be-all for her.

 

It feels like the writers are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They finally give Iris an episode to showcase her feelings (somewhat), and show signs of moving forward, and it's interpreted as being caught up in a Great Tragic Love.

 

Well not exactly. The writers wouldn't be damned if they gave Iris a PoV from the get go instead of shoving her into the background while they let even random guest stars get to bemoan their woes. 17 episodes later Iris gets to talk about Eddie (second time she mentioned him ever) and about moving on? It's laughable. 

 

I don't exactly agree with the interpretation of Eddie being Iris' one true love, or really care about that kind of labelling when it comes to adult characters. But given how Iris isn't allowed to show her feelings or express her opinions, Eddie could be the love of her life. Or it could be Barry. Who knows? She's supposed to be the love interest of the show's protagonist and in two seasons she still doesn't have someone to confide in about her romantic life. 

[Trini]

Time travel was still a stupid plan, but a better plan, I think, would have been for Barry to go back and talk to Gideon instead of trying to fool Wells/Thawne. (Because Gideon obeys, Barry, right?) And the show still could have had the Barry/Thawne confrontation, but perhaps less messing with the past versions of people and the timeline.

 

Interesting that they referenced 12 Monkeys, which had a better grip on time travel and the consequences. Although, I wonder if they were talking about the movie or the Syfy series.

 

It just irks me that the show is again making a time paradox/new timeline and they're probably going to ignore it. The only thing they showed was Hartley on the 'good side' now, but something that 'small' should/could potentially change a lot of things. Come on, show; I know you know about The Butterfly Effect! Things might have happened similarly, but this is a different future and Team that Barry came back to.

[johntfs]

I don't think that the love of one's life has to be the first love, or the one they met first.  I am fine with Iris loving Eddie, but that he wasn't the love of her life. Like Barry is. Or supposed to be.  For Barry, Iris is his first, his only, and that's fine if for Iris, that ultimately, Barry is shown to be the love of her life. Even though I know in comics and the various 'toons/movies I've watched, they've been each others' from the get go.

 

So yeah, based on the comments I've read thus far (haven't seen the episode yet, but will tonight), even if the show runners insist on throwing roadblocks in their way, I want, in the end, if you will, to be shown, that Barry is the love of Iris's life and not sloppy seconds. And yeesh, I hate that I typed that, because I hate that phrase.

 

Why is there some requirement that Barry or Iris have the love instead of a love?  Is there some contest or comparison being made?  Do we need to test the relationships and measure the amount of love, perhaps in Eros units?  What kind of science device measures the physical quantity of love?  Can I buy one through Amazon or Overstock?

 

I see no problem with Iris loving Eddie and maybe loving her asshole boss (before learning he's evil/stupid/cheating on her with a blowup doll/etc.) before loving Barry in a romantic way.  Heck I'm fine with Iris moving on to loving Caitlin after Barry offs himself by tripping on a banana peel and slamming into a wall at MACH 3 and is replaced by Wally West as the Flash.

[marcee]

The whole time travel thing is so bizarre... because if Barry and Thawne can do it, Zoom can do it too. If Zoom can do it that means everything that happens or has happened or will happen has been or can be changed. It can be a fight between speedsters to keep going back to same place to re-do or change or fix things or kill someone before they can screw stuff up. It just seems so dumb.

[phoenics]

My problem with Flash is how, unlike other science fiction I enjoy, the human component isn't tied to the main plot. Barry goes back in time to get faster...okay. Where are the personal stakes? That's where the show is losing me. Eobard threatened everyone Barry loved, he wanted to hurt them to make Barry hurt. But Zoom? Can't say I'm invested in his downfall, or feel Barry's urgency.

I completely agree with this. Even more than the fact that the human component isn't tied to the main plot - it also appears that the human component has become disjointed with the Flash mythology as well. In Season 1, they made a huge point of tying Barry's emotion with his powers. His need to help people, etc., was ineffably tied to his powers. He regained access to the speed force and ramped up his powers when he thought Blackout was going to hurt Wells/Thawne. He first broke the sound barrier to save Iris. He first time traveled because of his and Iris' first kiss. He also broke free of Grodd because of his connection to Iris.

Emotions have always tied into Flash's powers. And even more than that - the speed force isn't always that easy to disconnect from once you go into it - because it tries to absorb speedsters - calling them home as it were - when they tap into it too much. That's why Iris as Barry's lightning rod is so critical - because it's only by focusing on her that he can disconnect. Also the Allen bloodline is supposed to have more of a connection to the speed force (I think Barry IS the Speed Force, but I may be remembering that wrong).

Anyway - I really need Geoff Johns to get his writers on the show to pay attention to the mythology. All of the cool stuff from S1 appears to have been dropped and the show has lost a bit of its magic.

[Ruby25]

Why is there some requirement that Barry or Iris have the love instead of a love?

In canon, their love IS supposed to be "the" love. There's no one else for either of them, it trascends time, space, death, other universes, etc, etc..

 

The show has already tried to lessen that (on Iris's side at least) by forcing lame Eddie into the picture in the first place. They kinda screwed them over in some ways from the start, but the least they can do now is not reiterate over and over again how Eddie and not Barry, was the "one" for Iris. I mean, come ON.

 

I can't believe they haven't even gone into the lightning rod stuff yet. They are going to bring that up eventually, right?

Edited March 31, 2016 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

And I think the problem with this is that they have already insisted and shown us, repeatedly, that Eddie was the love of her life.

There is a huge difference between being the "only love of someone's life" and the "love of someone's life". Eddie was the former. Iris has yet to experience the latter.

[AudienceofOne]

In canon, their love IS supposed to "the" love. There's no one else for either of them, it trascends time, space, death, other universes, etc, etc..

 

Being siblings...?

 

If they intended for their love to be that love, they should never have introduced them as practically being brother and sister. Everything that's happened has been about them trying to smooth their way towards a love story between people half their audience sees as related. I haven't read the comics and I don't care either way. But if you were hoping for an epic love story, I think that was pretty well quashed in in the first minute of episode 1.

[phoenics]

Being siblings...?

 

If they intended for their love to be that love, they should never have introduced them as practically being brother and sister. Everything that's happened has been about them trying to smooth their way towards a love story between people half their audience sees as related. I haven't read the comics and I don't care either way. But if you were hoping for an epic love story, I think that was pretty well quashed in in the first minute of episode 1.

They are not siblings, adopted or otherwise.

I do think this can be an epic love story - honestly the whole lightning rod concept guarantees that for me, so ... I find the "sibling" argument unconvincing.

[Trini]

In canon, their love IS supposed to "the" love. There's no one else for either of them, it trascends time, space, death, other universes, etc, etc..

Being siblings...?

 

If they intended for their love to be that love, they should never have introduced them as practically being brother and sister. ...

 

Responding in Relationships.

[Ruby25]

Being siblings...?

 

If they intended for their love to be that love, they should never have introduced them as practically being brother and sister. Everything that's happened has been about them trying to smooth their way towards a love story between people half their audience sees as related. I haven't read the comics and I don't care either way. But if you were hoping for an epic love story, I think that was pretty well quashed in in the first minute of episode 1.

This has never bothered me because they are clearly not related, and Barry didn't even move in with them until he was 11, so I've never understood that argument. They're not siblings, period.

[AudienceofOne]

And this is the problem. Because to me they've always played their relationship as being sibling-like. YMMV but, like I said, they created half a fandom who find their brother-sister vibe an impediment to the romance. So they're going to have to take that into account in any build up to a romance. If "epic" was what they were going for, they should never have created the problem in the first place.

[johntfs]

In canon, their love IS supposed to "the" love. There's no one else for either of them, it trascends time, space, death, other universes, etc, etc..

 

The show has already tried to lessen that (on Iris's side at least) by forcing lame Eddie into the picture in the first place. They kinda screwed them over in some ways from the start, but the least they can do now is not reiterate over and over again how Eddie and not Barry, was the "one" for Iris. I mean, come ON.

 

I can't believe they haven't even gone into the lightning rod stuff yet. They are going to bring that up eventually, right?

 

Except that the whole "canon" idea ignores certain realities of television.  What happens if you set up Barry and Iris as the "super-duper-uper-pooper transcendent mega-love of all eternity" and then Candice Patton leaves the show to headline another show by Shonda Rhimes or something?  Does that mean that Barry has to be a lonely celibate mope for the rest of the show?

 

Maybe Barry and Iris will navigate past the sister-friend zone and maybe they won't.  I'm more than okay with ignoring canon if there's a better story.  Don't agree with me?  Go watch Arrow and imagine four full seasons of that show trying to choke down Green Arrow's great canon supermance with Black Canary.

[phoenics]

Except that the whole "canon" idea ignores certain realities of television.  What happens if you set up Barry and Iris as the "super-duper-uper-pooper transcendent mega-love of all eternity" and then Candice Patton leaves the show to headline another show by Shonda Rhimes or something?  Does that mean that Barry has to be a lonely celibate mope for the rest of the show?

 

Maybe Barry and Iris will navigate past the sister-friend zone and maybe they won't.  I'm more than okay with ignoring canon if there's a better story.  Don't agree with me?  Go watch Arrow and imagine four full seasons of that show trying to choke down Green Arrow's great canon supermance with Black Canary.

See what you've done Ruby25?

Johntfs, please don't compare Westallen to Lauriver, when one is akin to Lois/Clark (Westallen) and the other is dysfunctional even in comic canon. It's a false equivalence to try to equate the two.

Don't make me declare war on you and send you back to your bunk to read through the spoilers to catch up, lol. That's not usually what you're going to your bunk for!

Edited March 31, 2016 by phoenics

[Trini]

I know both share some showrunners, but I don't like equating Oliver/Laurel to Barry/Iris either. The issues involved are somewhat different; on several levels.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Trini

[scarynikki12]

A few things. 

 

First, please stay on topic.  This thread is to discuss the episode.  If all you're posting about are Flash relationships then head to that thread.  Many of you already have, so thank you. 

 

Second, BE POLITE.  No one is asking that everyone agree on everything.  Disagree or even passionately debate all you want but BE POLITE. 

 

Third, remember the Report and Ignore buttons.  They are two of the options on the bottom right of each post.  If someone posts something offensive then Report and a Mod will take care of it.  If you simply don't like the opinions of another then Ignore becomes your friend. 

 

Finally, embrace the Art of Moving On.  If you find yourself saying the same thing over and over, stop and consider discussing/debating a different topic.  Talk about the crossovers, nitpick the science, speculate future stories in the appropriate thread, or head to another forum and talk about a completely different show.  There are many things to talk about so don't let yourself get stuck on the same point. 

 

Thanks and enjoy the Batkitty

 

 

 

[ACW]

  Barry's dated, what, two or three women in two years?  While Iris has dated one man in that time.  And people are saying that *Barry* is the one preserving their "true love"?  Double standard, much?

 

To be fair, we really don't know that the only changed thing as that Hartley is good.  That's just the only thing that Barry has noticed so far.  Maybe there'll be a scene with:

 

Iris: Barry are you okay?

 

Barry: What? Why?

 

Iris: You know.  It's been nearly a year since your dad was shanked in prison after you got that final note from Wells/Thawne that said "Fuck you Futureboy.  I know you lied.  Your daddy's going to die in prison."

  After all the warnings from Wells-2, there had better be some more timey-wimey fallout.  Though if it was something obvious (we still haven't seen Joe West since Barry got back, or confirmed that Ronnie is still gone ,or that Barry's Mom is still dead...), it would probably be mentioned in the previews.

  As far as the Pied Piper goes, he actually reformed in the comics shortly after Crisis on Infinite Earths, and hung out with (and, famously, came out to) the Wally West Flash back in the early 90's.

 

Barry's manners are slipping, I think. This episode was, from Piper's perspective, the first time that the two of them have seen each other, yet he completely neglected to remove his mask and say "Hello, my name is Barry Allen. Also known as The Flash. Pleased to meet you." The nice polite Barry that we know would never go an entire episode without introducing himself to new friends. Or enemies. Or random bystanders. Or dogs. Or squirrels. Or fire hydrants.

 But!  Barry is so bad at hiding his true identity, he can't even do it from himself, much less his arch-enemy, or his friends.  (Damn, if only Iris had been there!  What a wasted opportunity to retcon her into the loop earlier!). 

  Plus, as we saw on Supergirl, he's *so* bad at secret identities that just being in his proximity for a minute can make a complete stranger reveal her own.  Must be a Speed Force aura thing. (Cat Grant figuring him out doesn't count against him, though, since she knows everything.)

[ACW]

And he's not too happy about Barry's latest time-travel shenanigans.

http://previously.tv/the-flash/the-flash-meets-a-specter-of-the-past/"> Read the story

a Barry Allen -- not sure which one, since he sported a different insignia from that of our Barry -- showed up in Supergirl's National City!

 

 

Same (white) insignia, just surrounded by a device that I assume is for Tachyon Acceleration, much like the one on Thawne's suit in the background of the Time Vault picture in your review.

Speaking of Supergirl:  That Barry had already visited a world (Earth-3?) of evil doppelgangers.  Hmm, who do we know who seems like someone's evil doppelganger?

[johntfs]

Same (white) insignia, just surrounded by a device that I assume is for Tachyon Acceleration, much like the one on Thawne's suit in the background of the Time Vault picture in your review.

Speaking of Supergirl:  That Barry had already visited a world (Earth-3?) of evil doppelgangers.  Hmm, who do we know who seems like someone's evil doppelganger?

 

I figured he was talking about Earth-2, given that Ronnie, Caitlin and Cisco all turned out to be somewhat evil.  Not to mention Captain Singh.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Jeebus Cripes. One would think that Iris had been mourning Eddie all season long after watching the scenes with Iris and Barry, and her talk about her going on, Like, a date, with her BOSS. Who's nice. Really? In what universe? The two times I've seen him, he came off like an arrogant jerk, with tunnel vision.  I'm not expecting rainbows and puppies with him, but there's a way to be no nonsense and NOT come off as a jerk. Iris looking through that photo album of her and Eddie? Pure Plot contrivance. Ugh. Especially since I know she chose Barry over Eddie in the Tsunami episode last season.

 

My favorite scenes were with Barry, present Barry and Thawne. Tom Welling Cavanaugh is just FANTASTIC. Ooops, hee. I've got Welling on the brain! I think maybe I should have watched this first and then the crossover on Supergirl. Because from all the posts, I didn't realize Barry had zoomed into another Earth.  One more thing before I continue (so please bear with me), I don't understand why, just because the CW shows haven't talked about Supes and Supergirl, means that they don't exist on this Earth and vicey versey. Stupid.

 

Ahem. Topic?

 

Errm...the time wraiths gave me visions of the wraiths that escaped the Phantom Zone in Smallville. Except the wraiths here had a face and upper body.

 

I'm tired of this angsty Barry. Barry isn't supposed to be fucking angsty. i want my season one Barry back.  And now I want Kara to accidentally show up here. Because I would love to see Cisco's reaction to her.

 

That's all I got.

[zannej]

I had a thought that I think I forgot to express about how Barry bluffed Eobard. While I do think Eobard only believed him because he wanted to and was just so desperate to get home, I wish Barry's story to stop Eobard from killing him had been different. Like really? Why would he believe in the secret letter thing? Couldn't he just tear through looking for said secret letter? A better story would have been that if Barry didn't stop the singularity then Central City and possibly the entire Earth would be destroyed-- thus wiping out the future and making it so Eobard would never get home because there would be no home to return to.

[KirkB]

I think Thawne probably bought Barry's bluff because it was exactly the kind of thing HE would do. 

[Oscirus]

I don't think he did buy the bluff. I believe he probably played along and placed more future security measures to ensure his survival.

[johntfs]

I don't think he did buy the bluff. I believe he probably played along and placed more future security measures to ensure his survival.

 

Maybe it was more that Eobard was acting to preserve the timeline.  At some point Barry was as fast as Eobard since they were evenly matched.  Maybe Eobard figured that the tachyon way was how Barry got faster so he gave the equation to Barry to make sure he was the Flash he'd face in the future.

[KirkB]

Now that I think about it, Thawne letting future Barry live doesn't really make any sense. Yes, obviously he had to do so or the show would be over, but there is no up side for Thawne. Making Barry even faster and sending him back to the future would mean it was going to be harder for him to beat Barry in the end, or worse (and as he correctly guessed) the fact Barry was able to get back to him at all meant he ultimately failed. And killing a guy from the future wouldn't effect his timeline in the same way killing someone from the past might. Plus, it would (presumably) get rid of the time wraith. Even if he did buy Barry's bluff an arrogant guy like Thawne could still have killed the future Barry and altered his own plans to account for his threats, which as we know wouldn't gave actually amounted to anything in the first place.

[Trini]

See? Next time they do time travel (and they totally are) they shouldn't go back to a time we've seen before -- to at least spare me the headache.

[zannej]

I think that Thawne doubted Barry but didn't want to take the chance that he wasn't bluffing. Even if he did succeed and go back to his own time, maybe Eobard had resolved to NOT try to kill Flash in the past and instead to face him in his own time so he wouldn't get stuck again. And since he didn't hold his hand, maybe he hoped that it would take Barry longer to learn how to get faster.

I don't think Barry dying would have made the time wraith go away though. I don't know if it would have sensed that Barry died and just stop pursuing him. It was out of the timestream and in a set time. It might have decided to go looking for other time travelers until it killed someone itself and was appeased.

Barry was just lucky that Thawne, although duplicitous in many ways, for some reason felt compelled to keep his word and not lie to Barry. It makes me wonder if it was one of the ways in which he wanted to be The Flash's opposite. He might have despised The Flash for being hostile toward him when he (Thawne) was younger and maybe The Flash lied to him or he believed the Flash lied to him.

I also think that the idea of killing the Flash would be more fulfilling than actually accomplishing it. I think if Thawne did kill The Flash he might feel a temporary sense of accomplishment/success/ and glee, but I don't think it would satisfy him as much as he expected. Because once he'd done it, what would be next for him?

[Oscirus]

Now that I think about it, Thawne letting future Barry live doesn't really make any sense.

 

If he didn't threaten to kill Barry it would've made sense. Especially since we know that Thawne is not a big fan of messing with the timelines. But since the threat contradicts what the show previously told us, I'm inclined to agree.

[driedfruit]

See? Next time they do time travel (and they totally are) they shouldn't go back to a time we've seen before -- to at least spare me the headache.

 

I'd like to see them go to pre-coma era. It'd be interesting to get a nice feel for Westallen, Cisco, Caitlin (with Ronnie or not) before we met them in the pilot. 

 

I also think that the idea of killing the Flash would be more fulfilling than actually accomplishing it. I think if Thawne did kill The Flash he might feel a temporary sense of accomplishment/success/ and glee, but I don't think it would satisfy him as much as he expected. Because once he'd done it, what would be next for him?

 

 

I'm torn, on one hand he did intend on killing him as a child and was thwarted last minute. On the other, the character we got to know last season didn't seem to want to kill Barry or at least not before making him suffer by killing his loved ones. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by driedfruit

[Latverian Diplomat]

If the Time Wraiths don't like people mucking about time, then why isn't Zoom target #1? He's killing other world's heroes and villains, which no doubt messes with those other worlds' timelines.

 

I just wish Barry quits with the time travel for a good long bit. Not because I don't want him to help ( not that it ever really seems to help), 

 

 

Doesn't messing with the timeline always backfire?

 

They always say that time travel will have dire consequences, but it never really works out that way. it actually has a great track record. Central City has been saved from destruction by time travel twice so far. There was the singularity/Ronnie's death, but that was a consequence of the wormhole getting out of control, not anything Barry or anyone else did that changed the timelline.

 

Even all the ill advised messing around Barry did in this episode had only positive results. 

 

I don't know; maybe if the Time Wraiths tie into something at the end of the season, that might save this episode. Otherwise, it's just so random.

 

They are so unable to come up with negative consequences, they need a "time monster" to make time travel dangerous. 

[Actionmage]

Even all the ill advised messing around Barry did in this episode had only positive results.

 

We don't know that currently. The only change we were privy to was a kinder Hartley. Who knows what has changed?

 

But if Barry never has a negative consequence to the unneeded time-travel, then these Time Wraiths become boogeymen for Barry, with Wells a scout leader telling tales around the campfire.

 

 If what you are theorizing is true, Barry surviving that one Wraith will be compartmentalized to a degree that he "forgets"/doesn't think about it. Doing that, he becomes more confident and continues to not listen to people he supposedly trusts.  That is not the hero I signed on to watch. There is young and going through a learning curve, then there's what the writers have Barry doing. It's stupidly reckless because there could be plenty of other reasons for him to not absolutely time-travel and still have the dementors after him, yet not have him seem like a lazy asshole for doing so.  Don't show Barry reading a ton of books, have someone mention reading journals of dead guys then have Barry time-travel to see the guy who killed his mom and actively tried to kill him!  Have Barry go see some ancient scientist. Have him run forward to meet Future!Eobard. ( I also don't get why he always travels back and never forward. Hmm. A character note maybe?)  Hell, have him go meet Nikola Tesla or Enzo Ferrari, since their names were dropped. 

 

There are better ways to get him to go back that don't make him look dumb ( FlashMob says 'No, don't!'), selfish ( ' I need to get that 30% NOW', which sure but this way?), or mean (let-me-fight-and-drug-myself-for-no-reason(-to him) ). 

*"Sneak" back to see what plans Jessie made, so he can try to get her to come back for Harry

*After talking (!) to Caitlin, Barry goes back to backtrack this Hunter Zoloman guy Jay pointed out to her, just to be extra sure about who Zoom is. If they think their Jay was a lying liar, then double check the facts on this guy. Or even have Iris do some digging as another layer of protection.

*Going over the Velocity that was injected into Jessie, Caitlin and Harry discover a potentially damaging cellular something something "science" enchilada and that's why Barry wants to go back and "track" Jessie.

*Cisco realizes Barry lost a small piece of tech somewhere and when he lost it is narrowed down to sometime in the past, maybe during the S1 finale. Barry has to retrieve it.

*Clarissa Stein shows up saying that someone is sending blackmail photos of Martin entering a spaceship. Barry goes back to deal with the blackmailer. ( It's the pizza delivery guy from last season; he really wanted that tip, Barry!)

*Joe goes through some old mail and a letter from Vanessa is there. It was half-finished. It is vague, but seems to imply some danger. Barry goes back to track Vanessa and why the letter was sent. ( I mean, really? From drugged-out mom runaway to cleaned-up mom who can dress very nicely and travel to the coast a handful of times before she died? There is a story we're missing.)

*Gideon starts acting funny/up/fritzing out. Cisco isn't sure how they can make new parts. Barry runs back to watch Eobard-Wells make parts in his house or in the Gideon room.

 

Sneaking/spying can easily slide into unnecessary, but when has Barry found a situation that he didn't eventually butt in on? Barry considers Harry family now, so I could see Barry wanting to quietly help.

 

LD? This isn't aimed at you, honest. It's more the direction that the writing seems to have taken. IA that Barry doesn't face the consequences that are explained as almost a certainty.  He hasn't "lost" a friend or family member from his travels, so he's still very 'it's nbbd. I'll be real quick.' Then he isn't and nothing bad happens.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Actionmage