Selina Kyle: Purrrfect casting or a Cat-tastrophy?

[darkestboy]

The goggles - clearly a riff of Hathaway's but trying not to be exactly like hers. They don't really bother me but I get where you're saying.

The last two episodes didn't really need Selina cameos but it's nice to see her nonetheless. I do wonder if stealing that box from Wayne Manor is meant to be significant though.

[Kromm]

The goggles - clearly a riff of Hathaway's but trying not to be exactly like hers. They don't really bother me but I get where you're saying. 

They're not even a little like Hathaway's in my opinion--those were big wide VR glasses.  But Catwoman has a 30 year long history now with goggles of various types (with her character design, at one point the movies went one way, the comics another, and the animated show kind of split the difference).  Most of them have been roundish, but not QUITE round.

[Tenshinhan]

They're not even a little like Hathaway's in my opinion--those were big wide VR glasses.  But Catwoman has a 30 year long history now with goggles of various types (with her character design, at one point the movies went one way, the comics another, and the animated show kind of split the difference).  Most of them have been roundish, but not QUITE round.

 

I believe that Catwoman has only been wearing the goggles since the early 2000s.  A popular but relatively recent addition.

[Kromm]

I believe that Catwoman has only been wearing the goggles since the early 2000s.  A popular but relatively recent addition.

Yeah, I was mis-remembering.  I thought the 80s reboot has it.  It was the later 2001 reboot (and at least one of the animated versions since then too, I think).  Still, that's a lot older than Anne Hathaway's version.

[MarkHB]

It's easy to see that she's got a soft spot for Bruce, having seen what happened.  I could imagine, in this universe, she grows up into an antiheroine who knows full well that he's Batman but doesn't give him up, because who the hell wants to live in a world where no one can face down the Joker?

[darkestboy]

It's easy to see that she's got a soft spot for Bruce, having seen what happened.  I could imagine, in this universe, she grows up into an antiheroine who knows full well that he's Batman but doesn't give him up, because who the hell wants to live in a world where no one can face down the Joker?

That's exactly the way she'll probably be portrayed if this show does some fast forwarding and shows us older versions of both her and Bruce as Catwoman and Batman respectively.

[Miss Dee]

I wonder if Selina Kyle and Bruce Wayne keep a friendship going without realizing (or working hard not to realize) that they go toe-to-toe sometimes as Catwoman and Batman.

[MarkHB]

I think her line delivery is improving, and she remains an outstanding physical actress given her age and experience.  And, of course, as of "Harvey Dent" they've turned Bruce's first kiss into a "thing".

[Kromm]

I wonder if Selina Kyle and Bruce Wayne keep a friendship going without realizing (or working hard not to realize) that they go toe-to-toe sometimes as Catwoman and Batman.

The problem is that Bruce has seen her repeatedly in outfits that look pretty close to the contemporary Catwoman outfit.

[Danny Franks]

Well, it's not like this show will ever depict Batman anyway, unless they do some flashforward scenes. No way they get enough seasons for kid Bruce Wayne to grow into an adult and don the cowl. So I think the issue of whether he and Selina will know each other's secret identities as adults is academic.

 

I believe that Catwoman has only been wearing the goggles since the early 2000s.  A popular but relatively recent addition.

 

 

 

Yeah, Catwoman got the makeover when Ed Brubaker and Darwyn Cooke (serious dream team, right there) started on a new Catwoman ongoing in 2001. They gave her the new, more practical, really cool costume, which included the round goggles. That costume is definitely where they got the inspiration for Selina's outfit in Gotham:

 

 

I think Camren Bicondova might have been doing a bit of research on that version of Selina herself, because she's got the body language and mannerisms down so well.

[Delphi]

I think Camren Bicondova might have been doing a bit of research on that version of Selina herself, because she's got the body language and mannerisms down so well.

Fact, she's crouching all over the place I'm surprised Alfred hasn't told her to keep her boots off the sofa.

On a related note, Bruce is usually completely aware of Catwoman's identity even if she doesn't always know his, it doesn't really matter if she's already dressing her part.

[darkestboy]

Selina has been brilliant in the first ten episodes (well the eight she's actually appeared in).

 

Thought she was great in the last two episodes with her scenes with both Bruce and Ivy as well.

[HoodlumSheep]

Gonna be honest, wasn't too fond of Selina until the last two episodes, but now she's growing on me. I felt like she wasn't acting her age very much. I get that she grew up on the streets, etc. so she should have a bit of maturity to her, but i feel like Selina was trying too hard to act like an adult rather than the age she actually is?

I think it helped in the last two episodes that the actress got to play off someone more her age. Just my opinion, but like I said, she's growing on me.

[Actionmage]

After the hug last night, I want t know how Selina and Ivy know each other. The hug seemed heartfelt, and a little relieved. Did Selina decide to befriend the other kid victim of the Waynes' murder? Did she know Ivy before? Would she give Ivy new plants, if she did?  New questions I want to see some answers to, if not after the break, then soon-ish.

[MarkHB]

I love that, even at this age, Ivy is so scary that Selina wants to keep away from her. Yes, there was the hug and it did seem sincere, but it may have been staying on her good side, too.

It may just be the age thing, because Cam doesn't have much acting experience, but it definitely seems that she and David have some real chemistry. Of course, if I had met a girl who looked like Cam when I was his age, I would have done everything I could to develop some chemistry with her. And then I would have forgotten how to talk.

[darkestboy]

Great featurette on the consequences of Selina's actions from Beasts Of Prey ...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ukif3PTbhQ

[Actionmage]

Monday hasn't felt so far in a while! Thanks, darkestboy!

 

Just coming in to add 2 cents on The Dress.

 

Adult Selina, when the mood strikes,the need arises, or it's part of a job, can wear high fashion and pulls it off. For jobs, no one realizes until after she's gone that someone was where they weren't supposed to be.

 

This is Catween. She has to start somewhere. She has blown off Barbara's help before because she didn't value it's unique camouflage opportunities. She may not fully understand the value now, either. Yet, she may have an inkling.

 

I think that the dress was lovely though. At first, I thought the main coloring was a very, very pale blush under the black netting/lace. Then I saw a good picture on IMDb, and it's more a very, very light tannish-gray.  Still, a great feminine look, but not so girly-girl that Selina would balk. I did feel badly about the shoes. Not broken-in shoes are not fun.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Actionmage

[33kaitykaity]

Every time I watch Selina, I can't get over just how much the actress is a doppleganger of a young Michelle Pfeiffer.  Whoever found and cast Camren Bicondova deserves an award.  

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I did feel badly about the shoes. Not broken-in shoes are not fun.

It's not easy to walk in those super high heels until you have broken in your feet, your leg muscles, your spine and pelvis, etc. etc.  Haven't worn them since I turned 25 and frankly given my current foot issues I wish I hadn't been so addicted to them in my teens and early twenties.  I thought Carmen did an excellent job of stiff awkwardness in heels, while still looking perfectly lovely - whatever is wrong with this show (and there are so many things wrong with this show) Carmen and David are wonderful.

[Milz]

Every time I watch Selina, I can't get over just how much the actress is a doppleganger of a young Michelle Pfeiffer.  Whoever found and cast Camren Bicondova deserves an award.  

 

She can also pass as a young Julie Newmar

[MisterGlass]

I'm still thrown by the idea that Selina goes from pushing Reggie out the window to working for Fish.  Kat from earlier this season was way too smart to get involved with someone as unstable as Fish.  She certainly didn't fall for Barbara's theories.  This is a girl who broke into an apartment to get Ivy somewhere dry to sleep.  She's tough and harsh when necessary, but she was never interested in power and cruelty for their own sake.

[Delphi]

That's because it doesn't make any sense, it was for plot reasons. They wanted Selina in the finale but she couldn't be at Barbara's because she needed to go crazy abd she couldn't be with Bruce because he needed to find the cave. If anything it would have made sense for her to try to help Jim and then run off but the writers didn't even try, they just threw her in there.

[Actionmage]

Kat from earlier this season was way too smart to get involved with someone as unstable as Fish.

 

I disagree with characterizing Fish as "unstable."  She wears flashy clothes, owned a nightclub ( for a while, apparently), had a territory of her own to control in her Mob family and had the ear of her Don. She was ambitious as the day is long, just like her fellow captains under Don Falcone.

 

Selena, while very self-sufficient, probably doesn't really want to stay a homeless street person, always hustling and looking out for bigger/stronger folks to whatever.  Cat saw Fish come gliding up on that boat's prow, had the lady speak about change and was intrigued. We weren't given an idea about why Cat would sign on, but to be led by a charismatic leader who makes you feel special and seemed to take an interest in her? It may have felt nice.  Fish felt she could trust Selena to help recapture Gordon and Co. There was no 'Don't talk to her/ them!', to indicate that Fish felt uncertain about  Selena's loyalty.  Selena said it was the best gig she ever had. Selena bailing when things got bad? Self-preservation; I can't believe that Fish would hold that against her. You can't remember your lessons if you're dead.

 

I'm not saying there was some warm fuzzies between Fish and Cat, just that Selena possibly looked to Fish as a female role-model in : not taking crap from assholes, dreaming big for yourself, don't let others define what you are/how far you can go, look smashing no matter the daypart or occasion, and, specifically for Gotham, eff Authority. While I would not find Fish a role model for me, I can see where she might be one for a thief looking to move into a cushier life/lifestyle. The debacle at Falcone's warehouse might also have reinforced why Selena prefers to be on her own.  Lesser chance of someone else messing your plan.  

 

If anything it would have made sense for her to try to help Jim

 

I don't see why she would, even if Fish hadn't taken Selena into her group. Selena has used Jim whenever she needs him, otherwise, he barely pings her concern radar. She's bald-faced lied to him  and couldn't leave Barbara's fast enough after the Wayne charity ball.  She respects that he has the power to mess her lifestyle up and has proven that he's a sucker for hard-up kids.  I'm not saying she hates Gordon, but I don't see where Selena helping Jim would be smart on her part.  Again, disregarding Fish, she'd be taking "prizes" away from  more unstable Maroni and Cobblepot, two big mob folks. GCPD isn't good enough to keep her safe, let alone just Jim and Harvey. 

 

This isn't a knock on you, Delphi, because IA that the writing wasn't as good  or clear as it could have been. I just think Selena and Fish were lightly linked earlier in the season,with the assassin coming for leaked-name, supposed witness Selena.  The scene at Fish's between Alfred and Fish had dialogue that seemed to imply that Fish knew of Selena, but wasn't going to stop a hit.

[Delphi]

Oh don't worry, I'm not taking out personally. :) And you're right, is unlikely for her to help him. I think that was just me trying to make Selina into her fully developed Catwoman self. Obviously she isn't there yet.

Though, I do think that Fish was unstable, there are moments through out the show that shows the cracks in her otherwise unflappable surface. For example, after Carmine had Laszlo roughed up. When she had the girls fight to death. She was highly motivated and sure of herself, to the point of being delusional in a sense. She did things that stable people don't do. But Selina obviously has no way of knowing this so I can give a pass on that.

I still think Selina was there mostly because they wanted her in the episode because honestly I'm not sure why she would just be hanging by the docks instead of the inner city with other street kids. I'm not sure why she would have left Barbaras when she had a place to sleep if Barbara didn't mind her there, except for the fact that Barbara needed to be alone.

Even if she signed up with Fish because she was seduced by her charisma which I can see happening. I don't see why she'd stay hanging out. She didn't help because you're right, why would she? But at the same time I feel like she hung out a bit too long after shit hit the fan. While she wasn't going to release them I don't see her running out, leading the hunt mind you, to find them. When things get hairy Selina is the kind to bail so I think she hung out a bit too long.

[Sakura12]

I wouldn't have minded Selina hanging out with Fish, if they had spent more time on it. I could see Selina wanting to hang around Fish and they could've had Catween learn some things from Fish that would've helped her when she becomes Catwoman. I could definitely see Fish taking her under wing. They wasted Fish on that stupid Dollmaker plot that didn't mean much. She could've come back and been using Selina to steal things for her or sneak around getting info for her, to help her take back Gotham. 

 

But they rushed it and it didn't feel natural, it did feel like they needed something for Selina to do, so they threw her with Fish at last minute. Expecting to us to buy them becoming besties.  

[jhlipton]

It would have been better if the master had become the helper -- then Jada could have played a CatFish...

 

I'll show myself out.

[RodLu]

Very Lovely Young Lady.....

Very Powerfully-Impressive Talent/Skills/Style/Etc.....

Increasingly.......



***********************************


http://i.imgur.com/uGPNrmD.jpg

 

[silver]

Her looks are due to Waardenburg Syndrome

[Kathemy]

Forum is slow as ¤¤¤¤ and I am bored so I made a wallpaper and here it is.

{Full size}

[Kathemy]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

In reply to the thread title, I'm thinking Cat-trastrophy right now. The show is all over the place where Catwoman's development is concerned. She starts the show as a streetwise kid, not averse to working for Big Bads (Fish, Penguin, Fish again), good at parkour, in close-contact combat ... and right now, she's a streetwise older kid, good at close-contact combat with a whip, and not averse to working with Big Bads (Tabitha, Barbara). She's the same character, just older and with less parkour. (Seriously, I miss Parkour!Selina from season 1). When is she going to pick the skillset that will let her blend into a high society crowd convincingly and steal their crap from under their noses. Are we going to see how she makes the leap from petty crime and thievery to a taste for pretty things (jewellery, art?) And what happened to the girl who, despite her "look out for Number 1" rule still exhibited compassion for other street kids, like Bridget and Ivy, and even Doppelganger-Bruce? If they've lost such an important element of her character now, how are they going to reconcile her to the antiheroine she'll become?

I actually agree. Selina has regressed.

[jhlipton]

6 hours ago, doram said:

When is she going to pick the skillset that will let her blend into a high society crowd convincingly and steal their crap from under their noses.

They did that in season 1, but have dropped it since. 

[Danielg342]

13 hours ago, doram said:

In reply to the thread title, I'm thinking Cat-trastrophy right now. The show is all over the place where Catwoman's development is concerned. She starts the show as a streetwise kid, not averse to working for Big Bads (Fish, Penguin, Fish again), good at parkour, in close-contact combat ... and right now, she's a streetwise older kid, good at close-contact combat with a whip, and not averse to working with Big Bads (Tabitha, Barbara). She's the same character, just older and with less parkour. (Seriously, I miss Parkour!Selina from season 1). When is she going to pick the skillset that will let her blend into a high society crowd convincingly and steal their crap from under their noses. Are we going to see how she makes the leap from petty crime and thievery to a taste for pretty things (jewellery, art?) And what happened to the girl who, despite her "look out for Number 1" rule still exhibited compassion for other street kids, like Bridget and Ivy, and even Doppelganger-Bruce? If they've lost such an important element of her character now, how are they going to reconcile her to the antiheroine she'll become?

I wish I could frame this because it's oh so good.

Selina has become an afterthought to these writers, much like the other female characters on this show. Which I understand to a degree- the Batverse is dominated by men, but Catwoman is still arguably not just Batman's most famous female villain but also one of his most famous adversaries period. Why she has not been furthered developed and utilized is beyond me.

[DR14]

Independence is another big character trait the character has always had over the years.  To me she seems far too willing to let Babs/Tabs walk all over her.  She's cut and run for less before.  Bruce's observation ("errand girl") is so on point.

Honestly, she hasn't had good development since her mother's con job.  I feel her background treatment started there.  A shame really, she had been my favorite character.

Edited October 10, 2017 by DR14

[paigow]

On 10/10/2017 at 0:32 AM, doram said:

Did they? I really don't remember. I know she dresses up occasionally to steal from the rich at parties but there's a difference between sneaking around in a pretty dress and the "My Fair Lady" breeding education that Selina needs to come closer to being Catwoman.

Sneaking around as a "cater waiter"....

[Kathemy]

I mourn the death of Baby Batcat. :'-(

I really, really miss them.

On 10/10/2017 at 0:44 PM, Danielg342 said:

I wish I could frame this because it's oh so good.

Selina has become an afterthought to these writers, much like the other female characters on this show. Which I understand to a degree- the Batverse is dominated by men, but Catwoman is still arguably not just Batman's most famous female villain but also one of his most famous adversaries period. Why she has not been furthered developed and utilized is beyond me.

As I've said earlier male dominance is to be expected in a show with a male protagonist, a male deuteragonist and two male antagonists. Especially since this is ironclad mandated by Batman lore. Batman is a straight white male. Jim Gordon is a straight white male. Period. It's not sexist to write shows about straight white males.

But the other side of the coin here is that if you do not develop the secondary characters, their relationship to the leads, nay, to the show itself falls flat. We saw this with Barbara. We saw this with Lee.

They can't let this happen with Selina. Please.

[DR14]

I really hope there is much more to her development this season other than just whips and tight clothes.  That seems to be the only thing they've promoted. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by DR14

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, Kathemy said:

As I've said earlier male dominance is to be expected in a show with a male protagonist, a male deuteragonist and two male antagonists. Especially since this is ironclad mandated by Batman lore. Batman is a straight white male. Jim Gordon is a straight white male. Period. It's not sexist to write shows about straight white males.

But the other side of the coin here is that if you do not develop the secondary characters, their relationship to the leads, nay, to the show itself falls flat. We saw this with Barbara. We saw this with Lee.

They can't let this happen with Selina. Please.

I think those who write "the show doesn't do enough for its female characters" forget that the show has a lot of male characters who get the shaft- Lucius Fox, Butch Gilzean, Harvey Dent, Harvey Bullock, even Alfred and Nygma at times.

Which points to the show's main problem- it just has too many characters. Period.

I feel like the show gets a little too excited about the "Bat-figure" they want to introduce and they forget "the long game", unless they've got a story to tell with that character in question (such as Penguin besting Falcone or Gordon's fall from grace). In Selina's case, she's only really had her interactions with Bruce and the stuff with her mom to really work with- that's not enough for a character that is up there in the Bat-lore.

[Kostgard]

I've been thinking a bit about Selina, mostly due to her recent absence. They really started to lose me with her in the latter part of season three. I get her hurt after being conned by her mom, but she turned super-selfish afterwards, to a level that doesn't really make sense in regards to who she seems to be at her core. She's always stood up for her friends and looked out for the little guy. With that, the way she blew off Ivy (or rather just stood there and let Tabitha tell Ivy to get lost) felt really odd and out of character. I don't get why she did that. She can't really hold working for Oswald against Ivy - she's done stuff for him in the past and she encouraged Tabitha to get on board with his program after their visit from Zsasz. Even if she views Ivy as a kid while she is moving up in the criminal world, I don't know why she was downright rude to her. 

I think she will learn a lot from Babs and Tabs (ruthlessness from Tabs, and I think Babs can help her with the "fit in with the high society crowd" stuff and would maybe help her develop a taste for expensive things), but they are very different from who she will eventually become. So, she's got to make a break from them at some point, but right now I can't see how/when it will happen. Her path is really murky to me right now.

I'm not worried about the bat/cat stuff, because I am 100% positive they will find their way back to each other. They won't part ways now and not reunite until they are adults. I think they will be doing their own thing for a little while (while Bruce deals with Ra's and Selina is doing...whatever it is she's doing off-screen), but they'll most likely be back by the latter part of the season. Hopefully Selina will be more herself by the time it happens.

[Jelly Ree]

Dropped the show, I suppose a couple of seasons ago.

Came back this week to see how things had progressed.

I was shocked at the changes in this actress.

[MarkHB]

Now that her time on the show is over, I think the question posed in the title of this thread can be answered.. 

Purr-fect casting, IMO. She nailed it.

[Camera One]

 

Quote

  On 10/9/2017 at 1:56 PM, doram said:

When is she going to pick the skillset that will let her blend into a high society crowd convincingly and steal their crap from under their noses. Are we going to see how she makes the leap from petty crime and thievery to a taste for pretty things (jewellery, art?)

how are they going to reconcile her to the antiheroine she'll become?

It's interesting because this was written 2 years ago, but I guess we have our answer now.  They just don't reconcile her to the antiheroine she'll become.  Or they'll do it all in a single episode this week.   Or the entire transformation was because of Bruce abandoning her in the second-to-last episode.

Overall, they didn't do a good job with that for any of the characters in the series, beyond the first season or so.  I don't feel that the character is all that different from the way she was by the end of Season 1 or 2.  

Edited April 22, 2019 by Camera One

[MarkHB]

On 4/22/2019 at 3:36 PM, Camera One said:

It's interesting because this was written 2 years ago, but I guess we have our answer now.  They just don't reconcile her to the antiheroine she'll become.  Or they'll do it all in a single episode this week.   Or the entire transformation was because of Bruce abandoning her in the second-to-last episode.

When we left her, she wasn't on her way to becoming Catwoman; she was on her way to becoming Robin. But she had to do something to survive those ten years, and she was never far from surviving on the streets by her wits.

[Danielg342]

I think Camren Bicondova has more than proven herself to be a great, quality actress who could one day command her own show or movie, doing so with great success. She's engaging to listen to and to watch, she's got the subtleties down pat, she can elevate bad material and, let's admit it, no matter what look they give her, she always looks absolutely amazing.

She's the whole package, a rare breed in Hollywood.

So I think she did well as Selina Kyle/Catwoman.

As for the character herself...well, remember I said Camren elevated bad material? That's important, because that's pretty much all Selina got. She really didn't do much in the series except be in an awkward "will they or won't they?" situation with Bruce, one where she was the initiator at first but soon acquiesced control to Bruce.

You saw flashes of the street tough thief who had expensive taste and Camren did well with her acting to give Selina layers and depth, but the writing really held her back.

[DR14]

^What he said.

Camren impressed me big time.  She's my favorite Selina and my Batman fandom goes back to the early 90's.

It's probably too big a hope to want her and David playing their characters in a Batman movie 5-10 years from now, but they carried this show really for a lot of its run and the reason I stuck with the show.

I'll miss her playing Selina.

[MarkHB]

Since I've seen discussion of Camren's curls over in episode threads, this was her reaction just after shooting the suicide scene from the start of the season.  Remember, she was a dancer first, and Selina was paralyzed at that time....

[areca]

So she dropped off the face of the earth in 2020, hasn't worked since Gotham, and then changed her name.

https://unicourt.com/case/ca-la23-in-the-matter-of-camren-renee-bicondova-699375

Anyone know whatever happened to her?

Edited November 29, 2022 by areca

[Danielg342]

2 hours ago, areca said:

So she dropped off the face of the earth in 2020, hasn't worked since Gotham, and then changed her name.

https://unicourt.com/case/ca-la23-in-the-matter-of-camren-renee-bicondova-699375

Anyone know whatever happened to her?

Her Instagram account- last updated a month ago- sees her promoting her artwork. You can view it on her Etsy page, though, fair warning, her stuff isn't cheap:

blackbirdsnestla - Etsy Canada

I hope she is not finished with acting but I can understand if she wants to take a bit of a break, especially considering all that's happened since Gotham went off the air. Maybe in 2023 she'll venture back on to our screens.