The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

[JoanArc]

http://www.tmz.com/2016/01/08/josh-duggar-stripper-lawsuit-sex/

 

 

Duggar claims in new legal docs he has an air-tight alibi ... he was not even in Pennsylvania, the state where the alleged encounter went down. He also says he has never in his life been to the strip club or hotel in question.

Hmm, would be nice if he could actually prove this.

 

If it's not true, who was he unfaithful with? On of the other two women?

Edited January 8, 2016 by JoanArc

[Churchhoney]

Wow. That is fucked up. No wonder Josh ended up a misogynistic pig after 6 months in one. And I can't think of a legitimate, non exploitative reason for Gothard/ATI to be operating a Russian orphanage in Indianapolis.

 

And unfortunately this is just one of several very good investigations into Gothard-related doings over the years that seemed to promise that his evil empire was going to get widespread negative media, government and public attention and be squelched ..... And then nobody but the original investigators ever actually picked up on the thing ....

 

So I'm only cautiously optimistic now.

 

On the other hand, they're dying on their own anyway. I sometimes wonder whether Gothard may have even known from the beginning that, given how cults usually go, his would likely exist only long enough to fulfill his specific wants for fetish-service, power and money -- and maybe his brothers' -- and then collapse. I think he could have been that cynical his whole life. He looks like a cartoon-caricature of evil. I'd kind of laugh if he's known all along that it would all fall in a heap on his henchmen when he was too old to care.

[amitville]

http://www.tmz.com/2016/01/08/josh-duggar-stripper-lawsuit-sex/

 

Hmm, would be nice if he could actually prove this.

 

If it's not true, who was he unfaithful with? On of the other two women?

Then why is Josh  in a rehab  is the porn addiction false also?

Edited January 8, 2016 by amitville

[Churchhoney]

What the hell??? This was in the late eighties or early nineties and Bill Gothard is STILL a free man? A stank-assed rich free man?? Gothard's slimy political connections run alarmingly, disturbingly deep.

 

Honestly, I think it's both the political connections -- which Gothard has been very very very careful to cultivate over the years (and there have been more "exposes" hopefully written about some of these, at both the state and federal level, and they too have gone nowhere) -- along with the fact that most people just really don't care what happens as long as it doesn't happen to them. And for most of us, we can figure we wouldn't get caught in the Gothard horrors because we wouldn't join his group or be a struggling at-risk youth or whatever. Gothard's lifelong cynicism sure is fully on display in the way he's glommed onto politicians, though.

Then why is Josh  in a rehab  is the porn addiction false also?

 

So he wouldn't be inconveniently around when Jizm Bob enticed TLC to start filming at the compound again?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Churchhoney

[STFUFrank]

TLC exec talks about the Duggars.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/568fcc61e4b0cad15e646404?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

My question is and don't get me wrong I don't want Honey Boo Boo back but why axe them for that scandal but bring the Duggars back?

[Wellfleet]

That's actually a good point. I feel like Michelle and Jim Bob had a moral obligation to tell a close family member so she would know to be on guard around Josh. Although she probably had nothing to worry about -- he seemed to creepily realize his victims needed to be either sleeping/groggy or very young when awake. Amy was late teens by then.

 

I have to take issue with the idea that anyone who ever eats unhealthy food or struggles with weight is uneducated. I am a member of MENSA, hold a college degree, and also struggle with my weight for emotional reasons. I am very well aware of what foods I should or shouldn't eat but don't always make the right choices because to me, food is like a drug. I'm not saying that's what's going on with the Duggars, but several of them have been to Weight Watchers, which stresses the importance of fruits and vegetables, and they did an entire show with a personal trainer telling them what foods were and weren't healthy. Also, all things in moderation is a good rule of thumb. There's nothing wrong with eating an Oreo ball; we have no reason to think that was the main course! I don't normally defend them but some of this snark is straying pretty far away from all the big complaints I have about the Duggars.

 

I agree with this post. But I'm also honestly confused. I don't see anywhere in MY comment where I said anything about people who occasionally eat unhealthy foods being uneducated. Or that ALL those who struggle with a weight problem are uneducated. ???

[Churchhoney]

Really, that obligation extended to everyone with small kids that was around Josh at the TTH. Hundreds of families, most likely. Perhaps the coudl've posted a handmade sign...

 

 

 

Or just permanently posted Josh beside the sign that said "reprobate," where he was standing in the Christmas video. I will always wonder whether some TLC director or camera person who knew too much might have posed him there on purpose.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

On my phone so I can't paste, but I read this morning that Smuggar's Motion to Dismiss, as posted here earlier this week, was denied. I guess that means the hearing set for the 23rd is still on.

Danica - 1; Biker Dude - 0

Edited January 8, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Aja]

On my phone so I can't paste, but I read this morning that Smuggar's Motion to Dismiss, as posted here earlier this week, was denied. I guess that means the hearing set for the 23rd is still on.

Danica - 1; Biker Dude - 0

Don't you mean LAWYR - 0?

[Sew Sumi]

LMAO!!!

[Readalot]

Don't you mean LAWYR - 0?

my internet win of the day!

[Albanyguy]

I feel like Michelle and Jim Bob had a moral obligation to tell a close family member so she would know to be on guard around Josh. Although she probably had nothing to worry about -- he seemed to creepily realize his victims needed to be either sleeping/groggy or very young when awake. Amy was late teens by then.

 

 

Plus, Amy was always "headstrong" and hadn't been properly trained to "keep sweet" and obey the males in her family. Josh was probably smart enough to know that if he pulled any funny business with her, he'd be crawling around on the floor looking for his missing teeth.

 

I think it's both the political connections -- which Gothard has been very very very careful to cultivate over the years (and there have been more "exposes" hopefully written about some of these, at both the state and federal level, and they too have gone nowhere) -- along with the fact that most people just really don't care what happens as long as it doesn't happen to them. And for most of us, we can figure we wouldn't get caught in the Gothard horrors because we wouldn't join his group or be a struggling at-risk youth or whatever. Gothard's lifelong cynicism sure is fully on display in the way he's glommed onto politicians, though.

 

 

I think another reason that Gothard and IBLP has survived so long is that he was always careful to fly under everyone's radar. He maintained a very low profile all though the years, while other evangelicals from Jim Bakker to Mark Driscoll were courting national publicity and basking in the limelight. Most Americans had never heard of him until the Duggars shot to TV fame and it became known that they were members of his cult (even though the Duggars were very careful never to mention him by name). Public interest in the Duggars, especially after Joshgate, lifted the veil Gothard had carefully drawn over his empire. He must rue the day he ever laid eyes on Jim Bob and Michelle.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Albanyguy

[Churchhoney]

 

I think another reason that Gothard and IBLP has survived so long is that he was always careful to fly under everyone's radar. He maintained a very low profile all though the years, while other evangelicals from Jim Bakker to Mark Driscoll were courting national publicity and basking in the limelight. Most Americans had never heard of him until the Duggars shot to TV fame and it became known that they were members of his cult (even though the Duggars were very careful never to mention him by name). Public interest in the Duggars, especially after Joshgate, lifted the veil Gothard had carefully drawn over his empire. He must rue the day he ever laid eyes on Jim Bob and Michelle.

 

Good point.

 

Cynical as this seems, I also think that a big reason for his running free for so long is that he hurt vulnerable teenage girls and, even with his evil philosophies, hurt mostly children and teens, not adults. In fact, Gothard has essentially given extra power to all the adults -- especially the men, of course -- in his group. They like that. Driscoll, by contrast, ran afoul of adults in his little institution (and outside it), and adults come after you if they're the ones who get hurt. And so he fell much quicker. If you hurt kids, though, a lot of adults will pretend it didn't happen and stand by your side. See Phillips, Doug. He was finally brought down by Lourdes' lawsuit, but his fellow Vision Forum "leaders" were damned reluctant to leave his side. After all, he'd only behaved very destructively with a vulnerable teenage girl, not usurped anything from another adult man.

 

And I'm so glad he rues meeting the Duggars!

Edited January 9, 2016 by Churchhoney

[JoanArc]

 

And I'm so glad he rues meeting the Duggars!

Ironic, since Jim Bob did all he did in the name of his own personal and political power. JB probably though they'd end up running the cult, or, failing that, as President of the United States. Now neither Gothard or any Duggar could run for dog catcher, or flip burgers. Cue Derick talking about pride coming before a great fall.

[Missy Vixen]

http://www.tmz.com/2016/01/08/josh-duggar-stripper-lawsuit-sex/

 

Hmm, would be nice if he could actually prove this.

 

If it's not true, who was he unfaithful with? On of the other two women?

Wouldn't he have been able to produce phone records/credit card records/a witness or any other proof that he was not in PA at the time the alleged assault happened?

 

In other words, he has no proof he wasn't and he lost his initial motion. HAHAHAHAHA. And it sounds like the judge is pissed at him, too.

 

Is it wrong to want to do some type of celebratory dance in my office right now?

Then why is Josh  in a rehab  is the porn addiction false also?

Stashing your wayward, out of control eldest son in Jesus Jail for 6 months to the tune of a $7500 one-time investment would be a cheap way to hang onto Jim Boob's $40K per week TV salary...

 

IMHO, of course.

My question is and don't get me wrong I don't want Honey Boo Boo back but why axe them for that scandal but bring the Duggars back?

Duggars were making a profit and TLC has ten years of episodes in the can for profitable reruns.

 

Honey Boo Boo (and her annoying mother) were on the way out.

[becca3891]

This would only be true if sexual harassment and rape were truly about sexual attraction, but it isn't; it's about power. Asexual people are just as capable of sexually violating people as anyone else. That said, I do agree (from what I've read) that Gothard is more a classic case of repression and not asexuality. 

Thank you. This was an important point and I agree totally.

 

Then why is Josh  in a rehab  is the porn addiction false also?

He admitted to the porn addiction and "being unfaithful."

 

I agree with this post. But I'm also honestly confused. I don't see anywhere in MY comment where I said anything about people who occasionally eat unhealthy foods being uneducated. Or that ALL those who struggle with a weight problem are uneducated. ???

It's all good. I disagreed with your comment that the Duggars are uneducated and don't know how to make good food choices, but I went further with it than was appropriate for the topic anyway.

[Fuzzysox]

TLC tries to defend itself on the Duggars:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/tlc-boss-addresses-josh-duggars-045900716.html

[leighdear]

More inane bullshit from an entity that neither cares about it's content or the undeserving people it elevates.  

 

TMZ live did a brief view on Josh's situation last night.  They're all surprised that Josh changed his story to "Nope, was never in PA or at that hotel".  They don't believe a word of it, of course.  They're really good at digging up stuff, so I hope they can prove he lied.  

Edited January 9, 2016 by leighdear

[Churchhoney]

TLC tries to defend itself on the Duggars:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/tlc-boss-addresses-josh-duggars-045900716.html

 

I'll take "CYA 4 $$$s," Alex. For a thousand.

[Aja]

TLC tries to defend itself on the Duggars:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/tlc-boss-addresses-josh-duggars-045900716.html

*BARELY* tries to defend itself. She said "OMG as soon as we found out about it we talked to RAINN and did a special on sexual abuse." She did not say one word about the fact that TLC continues to air Duggar 'specials' that smell curiously like spin-off attempt, she did not indicate that TLC took any action other than talking to local non-profits (which--Nancy Daniels talking to local non-profits helps the Duggar victims how, exactly?) and she swears that TLC has a strict screening process and had no indication whatsoever of "what happened to the family" "a long time ago" (™Leghumpers.) Disgusting. And I call major, major bullshit to the claim that TLC had no idea. 

[Missy Vixen]

TLC tries to defend itself on the Duggars:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/tlc-boss-addresses-josh-duggars-045900716.html

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!

 

If TLC did their "background checking" (which probably consists of "Will they work for X number of dollars a week?" and "Will they sign the release letting us film anything we want?") it strikes me as HILARIOUS that they didn't check into June Shannon's past, either! Excuse me? The Duggars are just the cherry on top of Nancy the executive VP of programming's incompetence sundae. Seriously. There were enough people who knew about the Duggars in that community (according to those who've come forward since) that any questioning by a somewhat proficient private investigator would have uncovered the issues with Joshley Madison long before they exploded into public view. I do not believe TLC had "no idea", either. I think they were hoping the stuff would never come to light.

 

"Strict screening process" -- HOW MANY of their shows have been cancelled or taken off the air due to a molestation scandal or other issue involving the "stars" now? What a joke. And her insistence that the production of a documentary shown on a Sunday night at 10 PM on a holiday weekend made it allllll better...

 

OMG! What color is the sky in her world?

[MarysWetBar]

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!

If TLC did their "background checking" (which probably consists of "Will they work for X number of dollars a week?" and "Will they sign the release letting us film anything we want?") it strikes me as HILARIOUS that they didn't check into June Shannon's past, either! Excuse me? The Duggars are just the cherry on top of Nancy the executive VP of programming's incompetence sundae. Seriously. There were enough people who knew about the Duggars in that community (according to those who've come forward since) that any questioning by a somewhat proficient private investigator would have uncovered the issues with Joshley Madison long before they exploded into public view. I do not believe TLC had "no idea", either. I think they were hoping the stuff would never come to light.

"Strict screening process" -- HOW MANY of their shows have been cancelled or taken off the air due to a molestation scandal or other issue involving the "stars" now? What a joke. And her insistence that the production of a documentary shown on a Sunday night at 10 PM on a holiday weekend made it allllll better...

OMG! What color is the sky in her world?

Its pretty sickening, isn't it? But also standard comms strategy. My organization does it all the time. Senior found in a care environment with bruises all over and pressure sores from sitting in filth for days and some slick guy in a thousand dollar suit is on the news commenting that all care was documented in the chart and care given as per the care plan and standards in place. Staff is educated annually and this is a horrible situation. .but certainly not from OUR not doing our due diligence. Disheartening. Edited January 9, 2016 by MarysWetBar

[JenCarroll]

TLC exec talks about the Duggars.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/568fcc61e4b0cad15e646404?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

My question is and don't get me wrong I don't want Honey Boo Boo back but why axe them for that scandal but bring the Duggars back?

Honey Boo Boo was already well into Shirley Temple Syndrome -- the adorable little girl was getting less little and less adorable all the time -- and the ratings were down. Also, Mama June was something of a loose cannon. They were probably glad for the excuse.

[JenCarroll]

Sweet mother of God, please don't let these depositions be sealed...

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/josh-duggar-porn-star-sex-battery-lawsuit-judge-orders-reality-star-tell-truth-illicit-trysts/

Radar Online is just rollicking along the misinformation trail. The above article says the Judge "claim(ed) that (plaintiff) has a strong case." The Judge actually said "Plaintiff sufficiently but barely pleads her battery and intentional infliction of emotional distress claims..." (emphasis mine). Not quite the same thing, guys. And just BTW, Judges don't make "claims;" they make rulings. So yes, they accurately report that the Motion to Dismiss failed, but interpreting "barely sufficient" to mean "strong" is an offense against the English language.

[doodlebug]

What are the women/girls asking for only $50k each?  That's a pittance.  The lawyers won't even negotiate that amount.  It's not worthwhile.

They're not.  When a civil suit is filed, the plaintiff has to state whether their claim is for less than 50G or more.  These women are all asking for more than 50,000.  At this stage in the litigation, they don't have to state actual damages, the estimate of more than $50,000 is adequate.  At trial, they'd have to provide specifics and an actual amount of damages and I can guarantee they will each want at least several hundred thousand dollars depending on what happened to them and how much it affected them.

 

Check out the civil suit filings at your local court, they are all for either less than $50,000 or more than that amount.

Edited January 10, 2016 by doodlebug

[Marigny]

Take it with a grain of salt. It's Reveal Day on Crazy Days and Nights.

 

http://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2016/01/blind-items-revealed-26-5.html

 

August 5, 2015

This thankfully now a former reality star from a family of reality stars recently broke up with his girlfriend because she wouldn’t have phone or webcam sex with him. The girlfriend said it was all he talked about and she was always feeling pressured.

Josiah Duggar

If this one were true, Marge & mom wouldn't still be making appearances at the TTH. They made it into a few shots of the Counting On docuseries.

[GeeGolly]

If this one were true, Marge & mom wouldn't still be making appearances at the TTH. They made it into a few shots of the Counting On docuseries.

Could it possibly be the engagement was really just a business-like deal? The Duggars get ratings and Marjorie gets exposure? And that they were interested in each other but they were going to court without a true intent of marriage?

Edited January 10, 2016 by GeeGolly

[becca3891]

If this one were true, Marge & mom wouldn't still be making appearances at the TTH. They made it into a few shots of the Counting On docuseries.

  

Could it possibly be the engagement was really just a business-like deal? The Duggars get ratings and Marjorie gets exposure? And that they were interested in each other but they were going to court without a true intent of marriage?

As horrible as they are, I do believe the Duggars are sincere in their courtship obsession. I don't think they'd do a fake one for the purposes of cameras. And I have to agree that if Josiah really was pressuring Marjorie for phone sex, then that would have been the end of the family friendship. That one just doesn't ring true to me. I can definitely picture any of them starting up an anonymous online friendship with someone and being tempted for phone sex, but initiating it with a close family friend with the same values -- a lot less likely.

[SomePity1066]

<<<< As horrible as they are, I do believe the Duggars are sincere in their courtship obsession. I don't think they'd do a fake one for the purposes of cameras. And I have to agree that if Josiah really was pressuring Marjorie for phone sex, then that would have been the end of the family friendship. That one just doesn't ring true to me. I can definitely picture any of them starting up an anonymous online friendship with someone and being tempted for phone sex, but initiating it with a close family friend with the same values -- a lot less likely. >>>>

(Sorry ! My quote, bold, italic, etc, buttons just disappeared !)

I wholly agree, Becca3891 ! My take on the Josiah and Marjorie split was that her parents took one long, hard look at the maelstrom that is the Duggar Machine in the wake of the revelations about Josh and put an end to it right then and there. They may still be preserving the tenuous "friendship" because they are still in the Gothard/ATI/ILBP bubble, and they know what side their bread is buttered on, but wiser heads prevailed and they yanked their daughter out of being chained to a family that's just circling the drain.

[Churchhoney]

Could it possibly be the engagement was really just a business-like deal? The Duggars get ratings and Marjorie gets exposure? And that they were interested in each other but they were going to court without a true intent of marriage?

Could it possibly be the engagement was really just a business-like deal? The Duggars get ratings and Marjorie gets exposure? And that they were interested in each other but they were going to court without a true intent of marriage?

I would think that what was possible was their speeding the thing up for the exposure, so that it was kind of phony but not entirely.

It bothered the heck out of me that they clearly were announcing it as a TEASER for the next season. To have a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old do THAT is just nauseating to me. Urging teenagers to live their lives according to what will make the best tv commercials and reality-show fodder. Horrifying. Ruin 'em for life, in my opinion.

Anyway, my best guess is that the kids liked each other, thought they would make a good pair, were pretty sure they'd want to court at some point, and Marjorie really really did want exposure. So since the Duggs needed something and SOMEBODY new to tease the next season with (beyond Jill and Jessa) and since Marjorie clearly has ambitions, they decided, What the heck? Let's have a courtship right now! ...... So ... not quite as cynical as what you suggest, but nevertheless an awful thing to encourage anybody to do, let alone teenagers, since it's simply falsifying some of the most important things in your life, including your most complex and deepest feelings. (but of course the Duggars are so screwed up by their longtime life as media creatures rather than people, plus Gothard and extreme personality disorders, that the dangers and inappropriateness of this wouldn't even cross their minds)

Anyway, once the show was off, there was nothing in it for anybody any more, since Marjorie wanted the exposure and media experience more than she wanted a courtship right now, and Josiah may not have wanted a courtship now either -- maybe he wants to DATE or something; he's a heretic, apparently, we know, given all his ALERT trips -- and there was nothing in it any more for the Duggs, so they all mutually agreed to can it, at least for the time being, or it just collapsed as a teen romance caught in a maelstrom like the recent Duggar mess well might, but not in any way that put the kids or the families deeply at odds. (Plus, these are the only tv people Marjorie knows, so I doubt she'd want to cut ties completely, no matter what -- she clearly does have ambitions in that direction.)

Edited January 10, 2016 by Churchhoney

[queenanne]

Poor Josiah, it's kind of funny though - "You know what kind of kid that Duggar kid must be. He's been to ALERT. *nudge nudge of nearest neighbor with elbow*. Multiple times.." Just imagine, a world where that was all the signifier someone needed for "Has own unbreakable spirit."

Edited January 10, 2016 by queenanne

[JoanArc]

New Details about Gothard: http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/inside-duggar-mentor-sex-abuse-lawsuit-bill-gothard-raped-teen-office-rubbed-feetinside-duggar-mentor-sex-abuse-lawsuit-bill-gothard-raped-teen-office-rubbed-feet/

 

 

Another plaintiff, Jane Doe II, has among the most horrific stories. She said she was sold for sex and raped by her father and other relatives as a young girl— but found no solace in her church organization.

Doe II claimed IBLP counselor Kenneth Copley raped her in his office in 1994, when she was just 7 years old.

Seven. Jesus!

 

 

“He had her undress by his window, touched her breasts, and then had sexual intercourse with her,” attorneys wrote. “This sexual intercourse was without Jane Doe II’s consent.”

Other woman claimed Gothard had a bizarre foot fetish. Former IBLP volunteer Charis Barker claimed “Gothard’s feet would touch [her] feet, whenever he had the opportunity.”

“Gothard’s sexual harassment of Ms. Barker got to the point that the only way she was able to prevent Gothard from touching her feet…was for Ms. Barker to sit on her feet,” lawyers alleged.

Ugh...

 

 

She also said he exposed his penis to her on several occasions.

Funny, if it wasn't so sad.

[Tabbygirl521]

The sexual crimes are horrifying of course. But even if it was "just" some nasty old man rubbing his sweaty foot on a little girl - AUGGGHHHHH! I hope his ass is thrown right into jail among the general pop.

[JoanArc]

The sexual crimes are horrifying of course. But even if it was "just" some nasty old man rubbing his sweaty foot on a little girl - AUGGGHHHHH! I hope his ass is thrown right into jail among the general pop.

This kind of thing happens in a lot of families, I guess. No surprise where Josh gets it from, he was just trying to be like Bill. David and Gil hang out with this guy. WTF! So sad and angrifiing. His 81-year-old ass will die long before he's found guilty of anything.

[kokapetl]

New Details about Gothard: http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/inside-duggar-mentor-sex-abuse-lawsuit-bill-gothard-raped-teen-office-rubbed-feetinside-duggar-mentor-sex-abuse-lawsuit-bill-gothard-raped-teen-office-rubbed-feet/

Seven. Jesus!

Ugh...

Funny, if it wasn't so sad.

Homeschoolers Anonymous's 114 page copy and Radar Online's 31 page selection.

Gothard doppelgänger

Edited January 11, 2016 by Kokapetl

[Churchhoney]

This kind of thing happens in a lot of families, I guess. No surprise where Josh gets it from, he was just trying to be like Bill. David and Gil hang out with this guy. WTF! So sad and angrifiing. His 81-year-old ass will die long before he's found guilty of anything.

 

Not only do they hang out with him, they've heard about all this stuff for decades. But they've just said that the girl after girl after girl after woman after woman after woman who's reported similar things was lying. To hurt wonderful Bill G. Because Satan, or something.

 

It's nauseating. And, yeah, he most likely won't suffer for it a bit. This is a civil case. He won't have much reason to give a shit, I expect.

[kokapetl]

I don't think any of the Duggars knew, they're clearly idiots who couldn't be trusted. Successful cults control what their proles know.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Kokapetl

[JoanArc]

I don't think any of the Duggars knew, they're clearly idiots who couldn't be trusted. Successful cults control what their proles know.

You're probably right, but let's let all the facts come to light. Every story hasn't been told, yet. The Duggars are indeed useful idiots, but who knows what a snake like Jim Bob could be up to when no one's looking.

[Churchhoney]

I don't think any of the Duggars knew, they're clearly idiots who couldn't be trusted. Successful cults control what their proles know.

 

Yeah, I imagine they heard rumors, but I doubt they were informed the way Gil and David -- mentioned above, along with the other actual "official" Gothard leader types -- certainly were .... There would be levels of information, and the troops -- which included the Duggars -- woudl have heard rumors only, I'm sure. .... Well -- rumors and denials. (of course, once you've heard the denials, you do know, in a way .... so I don't think I'd let any adults Gothardites off the hook....)

 

Nevertheless, this is one thing I'm probably not going to blame Jim Bob for as much as I blame Gil Bates and his cohorts, I expect.

 

That's okay, though, since Jim Bob has made enough trouble on his own.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Gardencrown]

 

Not only do they hang out with him, they've heard about all this stuff for decades. But they've just said that the girl after girl after girl after woman after woman after woman who's reported similar things was lying. To hurt wonderful Bill G. Because Satan, or something.

 

Out of ALL of it, all of the cult group-think, all of the dumbass misogynistic ingrained nausea-inducing beliefs, all of the concrete ways in which women are oppressed here -- THIS is the thing I still can't wrap my mind around. I want to say, "Surely these girls had parents!" (I read Libby Ann over at Patheos and YES, the girls did have parents -- some of whom were also abusive) or "Surely they talked among themselves and realized..." But that's just it. Realized what? Even if/though they knew BG was abusive -- what recourse did they have?

 

People knew. Adults working with him knew. And still they did nothing. How could someone's individual power be so strong that multiple adults would allow this to continue? People called them "Gothard's Girls." People knew. I have to assume that people who ended up joining this cult truly believed that it was (blech) the best thing for their families...but how could this ever ever be a part of anything remotely ok? Where was the basic moral compass of each person who knew? Perhaps it's the issues of brainwashing and mind control, but...HOW??

[Aja]

Out of ALL of it, all of the cult group-think, all of the dumbass misogynistic ingrained nausea-inducing beliefs, all of the concrete ways in which women are oppressed here -- THIS is the thing I still can't wrap my mind around. I want to say, "Surely these girls had parents!" (I read Libby Ann over at Patheos and YES, the girls did have parents -- some of whom were also abusive) or "Surely they talked among themselves and realized..." But that's just it. Realized what? Even if/though they knew BG was abusive -- what recourse did they have?

 

People knew. Adults working with him knew. And still they did nothing. How could someone's individual power be so strong that multiple adults would allow this to continue? People called them "Gothard's Girls." People knew. I have to assume that people who ended up joining this cult truly believed that it was (blech) the best thing for their families...but how could this ever ever be a part of anything remotely ok? Where was the basic moral compass of each person who knew? Perhaps it's the issues of brainwashing and mind control, but...HOW??

The same way Jim Jones got over 900 people to commit suicide, the same way that Warren Jeffs convinced thousands that his rampant pedophilia was divinely endorsed(yes, he's in jail now--but the FLDS has been all about old men banging tweens since its inception, and it's not going to change because Jeffs wasn't savvy enough to evade capture), the same way that Children of God chick is still walking around a free woman despite having sex with her children, the same way David Miscavige's wife can go missing for ten years and everyone is just like "Those wacky scientologists, amirite??"  The fact that Gothard was savvy enough to make friends in powerful places didn't hurt him, either. You can pretty much do anything in the name of religion in the USA and be totally fine. Marry a bevy of 13 year olds, institutionalize child sexual abuse, confine grown adults against their will, deny children basic education and medical care...even molesting your sisters and screwing hookers is way less bad if you just temporarily fell off the Jesus train. Disgusting, sick, twisted, frightening.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Aja

[JoanArc]

 

But that's just it. Realized what? Even if/though they knew BG was abusive -- what recourse did they have?

If Gothardism was a country - It'd be North Korea.

[MarysWetBar]

The same way Jim Jones got over 900 people to commit suicide, the same way that Warren Jeffs convinced thousands that his rampant pedophilia was divinely endorsed(yes, he's in jail now--but the FLDS has been all about old men banging tweens since its inception, and it's not going to change because Jeffs wasn't savvy enough to evade capture), the same way that Children of God chick is still walking around a free woman despite having sex with her children, the same way David Miscavige's wife can go missing for ten years and everyone is just like "Those wacky scientologists, amirite??" The fact that Gothard was savvy enough to make friends in powerful places didn't hurt him, either. You can pretty much do anything in the name of religion in the USA and be totally fine. Marry a bevy of 13 year olds, institutionalize child sexual abuse, confine grown adults against their will, deny children basic education and medical care...even molesting your sisters and screwing hookers is way less bad if you just temporarily fell off the Jesus train. Disgusting, sick, twisted, frightening.

Oh yeah. To the point where I'm not sure I need to follow this story at all. I know what kinds of people these are and I know the details will bother me on a deep level.

[Gardencrown]

 

The same way Jim Jones got over 900 people to commit suicide, the same way that Warren Jeffs convinced thousands that his rampant pedophilia was divinely endorsed(yes, he's in jail now--but the FLDS has been all about old men banging tweens since its inception, and it's not going to change because Jeffs wasn't savvy enough to evade capture), the same way that Children of God chick is still walking around a free woman despite having sex with her children, the same way David Miscavige's wife can go missing for ten years and everyone is just like "Those wacky scientologists, amirite??"  The fact that Gothard was savvy enough to make friends in powerful places didn't hurt him, either. You can pretty much do anything in the name of religion in the USA and be totally fine. Marry a bevy of 13 year olds, institutionalize child sexual abuse, confine grown adults against their will, deny children basic education and medical care...even molesting your sisters and screwing hookers is way less bad if you just temporarily fell off the Jesus train. Disgusting, sick, twisted, frightening.

Your final four words say it all. This reminds me of Jon Krakaur's Under the Banner of Heaven...about the FLDS and the murder of a woman and child because the murderers believed that *God* wanted them to do it. Not only can you do a lot of damage in the name of religion, but if you can convince people that you somehow speak for God...the sky's the limit on the havoc and tragedy. It's the cornerstone of any fanaticism.

 

More on topic -- I wonder how much JB and the rest of the Duggars really believe any more. I suppose the kids believe for the most part because they know nothing else. But at some point with JB and Michelle, I think that it started to be far more about protecting the so-called empire than about believing. The hiring of the LAWYR and all the public flagellation of Josh on the last shows -- it all seems much more about protecting brand identity than anything to do with God. JB and Michelle did live in the real world at one point, and even though they were young when they entered Gothard-land, they did have some past experience without the cult, unlike the hell they've inflicted on their children. Not, mind you, that I'm saying that believing less than they used to has led to any actual good for the family. No, they're too greedy and corrupt for that.

[Churchhoney]

Out of ALL of it, all of the cult group-think, all of the dumbass misogynistic ingrained nausea-inducing beliefs, all of the concrete ways in which women are oppressed here -- THIS is the thing I still can't wrap my mind around. I want to say, "Surely these girls had parents!" (I read Libby Ann over at Patheos and YES, the girls did have parents -- some of whom were also abusive) or "Surely they talked among themselves and realized..." But that's just it. Realized what? Even if/though they knew BG was abusive -- what recourse did they have?

 

People knew. Adults working with him knew. And still they did nothing. How could someone's individual power be so strong that multiple adults would allow this to continue? People called them "Gothard's Girls." People knew. I have to assume that people who ended up joining this cult truly believed that it was (blech) the best thing for their families...but how could this ever ever be a part of anything remotely ok? Where was the basic moral compass of each person who knew? Perhaps it's the issues of brainwashing and mind control, but...HOW??

 

We're herd animals. Not that different from sheep.

 

I mean, you look at history, old and newer, and you see this kind of stuff over and over and over again. It's really much much more the nature of many of us to let bad things go on when we're part of a group than to do the opposite. I''m sure there are situations in which I'd do it. That's a scary thought, but I can't imagine that I'm all that different from the way so many others are and have been.

 

We really are herd animals. I was watching something last night -- Booze Traveler -- and a bunch of reindeer were standing around, looking very nonchalant, one took off, and the others followed with an acceleration you wouldn't believe. We're hard-wired to be a herd just like they are -- and with not all that many resources in our "override" packages, really, I'm guessing. 

 

And then the Gothard group had their override packages all turned down as low as BG could convince them to turn them, in the name of being obedient servants of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the adults in that group see themselves as getting a lot of benefits from buying into the Got-Herd program -- they are rulers in their homes the way a lot of other parents might only dream of -- and they got no benefits from those Jezebel girls, who were the kind of ungrateful children who spat back the favors they received because they were Big Bill's favorites. Etc. ...

Edited January 11, 2016 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

We're herd animals. Not that different from sheep.

 

I mean, you look at history, old and newer, and you see this kind of stuff over and over and over again. It's really much much more the nature of many of us to let bad things go on when we're part of a group than to do the opposite. I''m sure there are situations in which I'd do it. That's a scary thought, but I can't imagine that I'm all that different from the way so many others are and have been.

 

We really are herd animals. I was watching something last night -- Booze Traveler -- and a bunch of reindeer were standing around, looking very nonchalant, one took off, and the others followed with an acceleration you wouldn't believe. We're hard-wired to be a herd just like they are -- and with not all that many resources in our "override" packages, really, I'm guessing. 

 

And then the Gothard group had their override packages all turned down as low as BG could convince them to turn them, in the name of being obedient servants of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the adults in that group see themselves as getting a lot of benefits from buying into the Got-Herd program -- they are rulers in their homes the way a lot of other parents might only dream of -- and they got no benefits from those Jezebel girls, who were the kind of ungrateful children who spat back the favors they received because they were Big Bill's favorites. Etc. ...

This is true, there have been many studies about group mentality and how many a good person will behave poorly among a group and with normalization. However most of us have been taught to listen to our personal pings and will only go so far. 

 

There is a saying - Do the right thing when nobody is watching. The opposite is true too - Do the right thing when all eyes are on you.

[Sew Sumi]

Can I just say that Churchie, Gardencrown, and Aja have hit it clear out of the old ballpark today. Superb posts to ponder!

[Albanyguy]

This kind of thing happens in a lot of families, I guess. No surprise where Josh gets it from, he was just trying to be like Bill. David and Gil hang out with this guy. WTF! So sad and angrifiing. His 81-year-old ass will die long before he's found guilty of anything.

 

Not only do they hang out with him, they've heard about all this stuff for decades. But they've just said that the girl after girl after girl after woman after woman after woman who's reported similar things was lying. To hurt wonderful Bill G. Because Satan, or something.

 

And this is what really bugs me when people compare Gil and Kelly Bates to Jim Bob and Michelle, saying that the Bateses are so much more normal, so much better parents, so much nicer than the whacked-out Duggars. Baloney. Gil Bates is a Board Member who has known for years about Bill Gothard's sexual abuse of young girls and did nothing to stop it. He and the other members of Bill's inner circle worked hard to cover it up and protect the leader. When their backs were to the wall and they couldn't avoid taking some kind of action, they conducted a bogus internal "investigation" and allowed Gothard to step down (and I still think the plan was always to bring Bill back once the fuss had died down). And they're still denying and shaming the victims. Gil is just as amoral and self-serving as Jim Bob; the only difference is that he's better at hiding it behind a cheerful, reassuring façade. Jim Bob covered up the molestation of his daughters; Gil Bates covered up the rape of other people's daughters.

[Vaysh]

Gil is just as amoral and self-serving as Jim Bob; the only difference is that he's better at hiding it behind a cheerful, reassuring façade. Jim Bob covered up the molestation of his daughters; Gil Bates covered up the rape of other people's daughters.

Yes. Thank you. Whenever people start in on how great the Bates family is compared to the Duggars and what wonderful parents they are, this is what goes through my mind.

 

Jim Bob Duggar covered up molestations within his own family which was a horrible thing to do. But Gil Bates knew about multiple molestations of girls and women, all happening under his nose for several decades, and he not only ignored them but helped cover them up and kept making excuses for and protecting the perpetrator. Jim Boob is a dick but far more people have been hurt by Gil Bates' actions and inactions.

[Tabbygirl521]

And Gil Bates has daughters of his own who presumably moved in Gothard's orbit at times. Were they off limits, nudge nudge wink wink? How fathers of daughters, ESPECIALLY, don't shake off the brainwashing and do something is impossible to understand. Maybe Jill (?) on Megyn Kelly was very sadly right when she said these things "and worse" happen a lot. Lots of us here assumed that meant it happens in their circle, which is her only frame of reference. Looks like we were correct. Do they all think it's kind of...normal??

How did a repressed and nasty little fuck like Gothard ever gain so much influence?? Jim Jones was a bit charismatic, at least, until he went totally batshit.