S06.E13: The Same Boat

[Ohwell]

They're getting a lot more than just the one food truck though.

Yeah that's for sure.  *shudder*

[Pete Martell]

I felt I had been clobbered over the head with those pictures. Can't have even a whisper of ambiguity here, lest we the audience, consisting of dullards and morons don't get it.

 

"See, audience? Do you get it? These people are bad bad bad, each and every one of them. Bad to the bone. PUre EVIL, do you understand? They have no redeeming qualities."

 

*Aside: "Do you think our audience gets it? Do you think we need to make it more obvious?"*

 

It doesn't really bother me in this case, because I think they did need to show viewers how bad the group is, not just for moral justification reasons, but also to set up future conflict. Otherwise all we heard about them was a story of a dead teenager, and some Mad Max wannabes on the roadside with Daryl/Abraham/Sasha. 

 

They've tried to have ambiguity with the Wolves (the one who spared Denise, anyway), with Terminus (showing us flashbacks of who they were pre-cannibal), Grady, The Governor (trying to tell us he was just like Rick), and to me it's often comes across as wishy-washy or forced. Not always, but a lot, especially with The Governor, who got tons of airtime devoted to showing us he didn't have to be so bad, and isn't this sad, and so forth.

 

After this happening over and over, I sort of prefer the current setup, where the show is basically saying, yes, these people are terrible, but that doesn't make killing them any easier for the group.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Pete Martell

[AngelaHunter]

I think they did need to show viewers how bad the group is, not just for moral justification reasons, but also to set up future conflict.

 

Of course they have to be bad. I just find that the sledgehammer approach takes away any surprise or uncertainty. At Terminus, they find out five minutes after arrival that the inhabitants are evil cannibal types.

 

With the Governor, we get heads in aquariums nearly immediately, telling us, "Oh, okay. Evil". I thought it would have been a much more shocking had we seen that a little further along, after seeing dark little hints here and there that all was not lemonade and balloons in Woodbury.

 

I have no problem with all these people being evil and sadistic. If they weren't villains, CDB would look pretty bad slaughtering them. I just think it might be a little more intriguing if it weren't shoved in our faces right away. Maybe a little of the interminable time that was spent showing our group walking and walking and... well, some of that time could have been used to maybe create just a little suspense so that when the reveal comes it's all the more shocking.

 

I had no interest in the flashbacks or why any of the villains became villainous.  We never got to know any of them so I didn't care. It doesn't really matter what anyone was before since we can assume that most were just regular people, as was our group, and that has no bearing on the "why."

 

All JMHO and personal preferences!

[morgankobi]

I just had a weird flash to "Walking Dead: The Musical" and Carol is the Baker's wife, "was that really me? Did I kill him? and Kill him and kill her?"

"And will they kill me back?

 

Was it wrong?

Am I bad?

Want a cookie?

Were they suddenly,

Getting through to me?

 

Wake up!

Stop moping,

Stop trying to be Morgan.

It's not my style,

What is it about these kills!"          (Wolves would have been perfect there! Damn.)

 

"Back to knives, back to guts,

Back to cookies, back to flowers,

Just don't dwell on these kills!"

 

 

OK, I'd better stop now, or I never will.

Edited March 16, 2016 by morgankobi

[Iguessnot]

The man running for his life with handcuffs had just knocked Sasha out, and refused to listen to Rick ordering him to stop.

 

Let's not forget he wasn't running for his life. He was safe because he was being taken back to Grady as a trade for Beth. He took off running to inform Dawn.

[Pete Martell]

Of course they have to be bad. I just find that the sledgehammer approach takes away any surprise or uncertainty. At Terminus, they find out five minutes after arrival that the inhabitants are evil cannibal types.

 

With the Governor, we get heads in aquariums nearly immediately, telling us, "Oh, okay. Evil". I thought it would have been a much more shocking had we seen that a little further along, after seeing dark little hints here and there that all was not lemonade and balloons in Woodbury.

 

I felt like they were trying that with The Governor - didn't we hear endlessly about how wonderful Woodbury was, then we saw him gunning down the soldiers, then eventually the heads in the jars? I can't remember now. I guess I just felt like the attempts at quasi-sympathy or "showing us Philip before The Governor" ended up being not worth the time. 

 

I see your point. It doesn't really bother me with the Saviors because I just don't care about them anyway, and I'm more interested in seeing the effects on the main characters. And I feel like they've managed to make that more interesting than the usual morality crises with Hershel/Dale/Tyreese/Morgan hectoring.

[RedheadZombie]

Let's not forget he wasn't running for his life. He was safe because he was being taken back to Grady as a trade for Beth. He took off running to inform Dawn.

 

As Maggie and Carol were waiting to be traded..  Luckily, they also didn't sit back and wait for it to happen.  Luckily, there was no squad car around.  I'm not sure why there's such a knee-jerk reaction to a little ambiguity.  Of course CDB will be the good guys, but what does it hurt to acknowledge the gray moments? 

 

I give up.  I'll go away and take my false equivalencies with me until Sunday.

[AngelaHunter]

I'm more interested in seeing the effects on the main characters. And I feel like they've managed to make that more interesting than the usual morality crises with Hershel/Dale/Tyreese/Morgan hectoring.

 

Absolutely agree. Much better when everything isn't so black and white. I hope we get to see some of those shades of gray with our main gang, I think especially with Maggie and Glenn (who haven't interested me in forever) since they stood back looking disgusted and horrifed at the Slaughter of the Termites. They've crossed a line and I hope there might be some interesting outcome from that.

[Pete Martell]

As Maggie and Carol were waiting to be traded..  Luckily, they also didn't sit back and wait for it to happen.  Luckily, there was no squad car around.  I'm not sure why there's such a knee-jerk reaction to a little ambiguity.  Of course CDB will be the good guys, but what does it hurt to acknowledge the gray moments? 

 

I give up.  I'll go away and take my false equivalencies with me until Sunday.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem acknowledging it (Rick was really a disaster area around that point), I just don't see the situation quite the same way you do. The guy had the chance to live and he forfeited it (twice over, as Rick seemed to trust him before he knocked Sasha out), in my opinion. There are times when I do think Rick goes too far - I thought a lot of how they dealt with the Terminus group was OTT, even if I understood why they needed to vent their rage - I just disagree with this one instance. 

[GodsBeloved]

Responding to bold:  And when negotiations went south at Hilltop, Rick stated that they weren't leaving empty handed.  Which implies, IMO, there would be violence and stealing, unless the Hilltoppers saw things Rick's way.

 

Look, we all know that Negan is going to be the big bad.  The point many are attempting to make, is Rick's gang is working on second and third hand knowledge, did absolutely no reconnaissance, and involved more fighters than CDB could stand to lose if things went bad.  It is the first time that CDB has decided to proactively kill people, to kill 100% of the people, to attack in their own home while they are sleeping.  It's a scorched earth tactic.  And they are doing it on less than in depth knowledge of Negan and his people.

 

In comparison, look how suspiciously Rick treated Terminus.  And even with his caution, they almost died.  Look at how suspiciously Grady was treated - Rick ran down and killed a man who was running for his life with his hands handcuffed behind his back.  Look at how suspicious Rick was of Alexandria - he had a full blown breakdown that was only ended by Michonne's fist. 

 

It is within reason that many people are out there using Negan's name to intimidate.  They have no way of knowing if the group they demolished is actually related to Negan, and/or the three stooges that Daryl blew away.  It was relatively easy to get CDB to agree to attack and kill an entire group of people, whilst leaving their own territory in Alexandria with minimal protection.  Yet it seems that none of this was talked through or even considered.

 

And lastly, why are some so insistent that there was absolutely no way that the people we killed were innocent?  Daryl was with the Claimers for a time.  He wasn't tied up when he slept, he wasn't handcuffed.  Did he deserve to die simply because he was with a group of child raping murderers?

I agree with the entire post especially the bolded parts.

[GodsBeloved]

it is this kind of false equivalency that I simply don't understand. The situations are clearly not the same, yet you and others are attempting to make them so. When exactly did Negan's people negotiate with Daryl, Abraham, and Sasha? Yes, Rick stated that they weren't leaving empty handed, but they were willing to take the time to negotiate so they could work things out. 

For me the point is Rick would have resorted to taking if they had not reached an agreement. Yes he was willing to negotiate but by his own words he was also willing to do whatever it took to leave with Hilltop's provisions whether Hilltop agreed or not.

Edited March 16, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[GodsBeloved]

The man running for his life with handcuffs had just knocked Sasha out, and refused to listen to Rick ordering him to stop.

 

Are you suggesting the man deserved to be killed because he escaped his captors, ran and kept running when his captor told him to stop? Plus, Rick killed the man after he was already subdued.

[Save Yourself]

Responding to bold:  And when negotiations went south at Hilltop, Rick stated that they weren't leaving empty handed.  Which implies, IMO, there would be violence and stealing, unless the Hilltoppers saw things Rick's way.

 

Look, we all know that Negan is going to be the big bad.  The point many are attempting to make, is Rick's gang is working on second and third hand knowledge, did absolutely no reconnaissance, and involved more fighters than CDB could stand to lose if things went bad.  It is the first time that CDB has decided to proactively kill people, to kill 100% of the people, to attack in their own home while they are sleeping.  It's a scorched earth tactic.  And they are doing it on less than in depth knowledge of Negan and his people.

 

In comparison, look how suspiciously Rick treated Terminus.  And even with his caution, they almost died.  Look at how suspiciously Grady was treated - Rick ran down and killed a man who was running for his life with his hands handcuffed behind his back.  Look at how suspicious Rick was of Alexandria - he had a full blown breakdown that was only ended by Michonne's fist. 

 

It is within reason that many people are out there using Negan's name to intimidate.  They have no way of knowing if the group they demolished is actually related to Negan, and/or the three stooges that Daryl blew away.  It was relatively easy to get CDB to agree to attack and kill an entire group of people, whilst leaving their own territory in Alexandria with minimal protection.  Yet it seems that none of this was talked through or even considered.

 

And lastly, why are some so insistent that there was absolutely no way that the people we killed were innocent?  Daryl was with the Claimers for a time.  He wasn't tied up when he slept, he wasn't handcuffed.  Did he deserve to die simply because he was with a group of child raping murderers?

 

 

I wish we could watch the show together! Your comments are inline with my thoughts about the episode and current storyline.

 

I don't understand the refusal to accept that every person involved with the Saviours may not be 'evil'. There have to be people with them who are there for survival and protection, who don't necessarily agree with the tactics that are used or are even unaware of them. As you pointed out, Daryl was with the Claimers - he knew they were bad guys (he didn't know how bad) but he stayed because he didn't want to be alone; the majority of the people with the Gov had no idea what he was actually doing or what his motives were, they were told a bunch of lies and since they were safe and fed, they wanted to trust him - Tara was one of them; at Grady it was the same thing, they weren't all doing evil things. The only group who we have encountered so far that had no 'innocents' IMO was Terminus because they all knew that they were luring people there to kill and eat them.

 

The Saviours who we met this week did not seem 'evil', they didn't do anything that Rick and Co wouldn't do in a heartbeat. It's frustrating that this whole Negan storyline is tainted by the source material, it makes it too easy for viewers to straight away jump onboard with people being murdered in their sleep without thinking, what do Rick and Co actually know about these Saviours? CDB don't know if the Saviours are any worse than other run-of-the-mill bad guys they have met, going right back to S2 when Rick had to break his 'we don't kill the living' decree in the bar. The flaming bikers became a bit of joke considering they were blown up within 10 minutes and while the teenager being killed is horrible, it's a secondhand story from someone they just met - telling isn't the same as showing. The fact that the Saviours are taking a percentage of the Hilltoppers food production doesn't bother me that much because I'm quite sure Rick would do the same if he was desperate and I would understand the decision (it didn't sound like the Saviours were desperate but again, we don't know). Rick would have taken Alexandria if they hadn't come around to his way of thinking and I was cheering when he said that, that totally made sense to me given all that they had previously gone through. He absolutely would have taken food from Hilltop whether the negotiations were successful or not although his preference was that they become affiliates because of the long-term benefits.

 

For the record, I LOVE Rick, he's easily my favourite character and I rarely disagree with anything he does but in this instance I would have liked to know that CDB are actually afraid that the Saviours are going to come for them. The way it stands at the moment, CDB killed people in their sleep so that Hilltop would give them food and have tried to justify it by saying the Saviours will invade ASZ next without having any evidence that supports that assumption. If the bikers had been found closer to ASZ and said something about looking for towns to plunder I would have bought more easily that CDB believe the Saviours are a real threat although they still would have had to show how CDB knew that the bikers and the satellite dish dwellers are the same crew. (That is, I think Rick does believe that he needs to take these guys out because they are a threat but I think he believes that because the show needs him to, not because it has been earned.)

[Save Yourself]

Maggie's baby should be just fine...she said she's only 2 months along (which I'm hand-waving as inconsistent writing since it's 2 months since the night of Carl's eye getting shot out and she was far enough along at that point to already confirm she's pregnant), and that early on the baby is actually pretty well protected since the uterus still sits low and is protected by the pelvic bones.

 

Also, I was kind of rooting for them to bring the woman ("Chelle") into their fold. She seemed like the type who might have been able to blend back in with them, and she seemed kind of over the whole Negan thing. She mostly wanted to know where Maggie was from because she had nice clothes and clearly enough time and safety to get cleaned up and get pregnant. 

 

 

 

 

I thought the line about her being 2 months pregnant was odd. Maggie apparently told Aaron she was pregnant before the egg had even dropped! 

[Save Yourself]

I'm sorry, but all these Saviors are asking for it.  I know they're trying for some sort of moral ambiguity stuff, but the Saviors we've seen have been nothing but sociopaths. 

 

"You're not the good guys."  Yes they are, so fuck you lady.

 

Carol, feel bad if you want to, but they would have killed you, Maggie, The Group, and possibly everyone in Alexandria and The Hilltop.  What you did was not a mistake.

 

 

What did Paula, Chelle, Molls or Donnie do that showed that they were sociopaths? The only thing we saw is that they escaped being murdered in their home, caught 2 hostages, opened negotiations with the people that just carried out the slaughter and arranged for a rescue. They were also planning to ambush and kill CDB but isn't retaliation to be expected? They never harmed either Carol or Maggie and didn't behave in anyway that was inappropriate for the situation. We don't have any knowledge of these characters outside of this episode so I don't know how it can be decided they are 'sociopaths' based on the behaviour that we witnessed.

[Iguessnot]

As Maggie and Carol were waiting to be traded..  Luckily, they also didn't sit back and wait for it to happen.  Luckily, there was no squad car around.  I'm not sure why there's such a knee-jerk reaction to a little ambiguity.  Of course CDB will be the good guys, but what does it hurt to acknowledge the gray moments? 

 

I give up.  I'll go away and take my false equivalencies with me until Sunday.

Not quite the same because Maggie and Carol knew reinforcements were coming to neutralize Rick after the slaughter. Running man had no need to fear a slaughter.

[Eyes High]

On the point made by a few posters that "the only reason Rick and co. knew the Saviours were bad going in was Daryl, Abe and Sasha's run-in with the bikers and the story about a teenager being murdered," that's not quite true. Rick and co. were present when the Hilltop members returned from their meeting with the Saviours and stated that the Saviours had killed Tim and Marsha because the "load was light." 

 

What did Paula, Chelle, Molls or Donnie do that showed that they were sociopaths?

Paula bragging about how many people she'd killed was not a good sign...although to be fair, that seems to have been false bravado given how quickly she fell apart when Carol outmatched her.

 

Donnie was just a garden-variety asshole, but we've seen what Team Rick and in particular what Rick does to garden-variety assholes.

 

With that said, sociopaths are incapable of empathy, and with the exception of Donnie, Carol and Maggie's captors showed flashes of empathy. Their toughness seems to have been at least in part an act. ("I broke the rules and lost part of a finger in an attempt to retrieve my dead boyfriend's body, but it's not like I cared about him or anything.") Carol's tack of using Maggie's pregnancy to conjure up sympathy for Maggie actually worked; it wouldn't have worked on a sociopath.

 

One of the things I loved about MM's performance in this episode is that just before she goes into the straight talk with Paula (if you don't work this out, you're going to die), she braces herself a little. There's a clear shift between pleading, panicked Carol (nervous, teary), who's faking, and calm, cool Carol, who's 100% for real.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Eyes High

[diebartdie]

Has anyone mentioned that only Judith, Denise, Eugene and Tobin haven't killed anyone. Im giving Judith until the end of this season.

[NorthstarATL]

Has anyone mentioned that only Judith, Denise, Eugene and Tobin haven't killed anyone. Im giving Judith until the end of this season.

I don't recall all the details, but isn't Judith partially responsible for Lori's death? (And we don't know how Denise's early med school career went.)

[diebartdie]

Well if Denise reckons it similar to how Carol reckons her first then Denise has already killed someone, we're down to Eugene and Tobin. Wow, talk about subverting the paradigm.

[Pete Martell]

Are you suggesting the man deserved to be killed because he escaped his captors, ran and kept running when his captor told him to stop? Plus, Rick killed the man after he was already subdued.

 

Yes. He made the choice to take it to that place when he knocked Sasha out to escape. He could have killed her for all he knew. He then ignored the order to stop. In those circumstances, he pretty much sealed his own fate. 

The fact that the Saviours are taking a percentage of the Hilltoppers food production doesn't bother me that much because I'm quite sure Rick would do the same

 

If it was just taking the food, I wouldn't see the problem either, but between killing the teenage boy at Hilltop, playing head games by keeping someone prisoner and making his brother try to kill Gregory the leader (who seemed to be going along with what they demanded, IIRC, even if he's a douchebag), it doesn't seem to stop there. It's likely something more twisted that would keep escalating.

[NorthstarATL]

Yes. He made the choice to take it to that place when he knocked Sasha out to escape. He could have killed her for all he knew. He then ignored the order to stop. In those circumstances, he pretty much sealed his own fate. 

Exactly! The old rules would no longer apply. He was not "subdued" in that, in the world of the show, his continued existence presented a threat.

[catrox14]

For me the point is Rick would have resorted to taking if they had not reached an agreement. Yes he was willing to negotiate but by his own words he was also willing to do whatever it took to leave with Hilltop's provisions whether Hilltop agreed or not.

 

It seems like the entire nature of the confrontation between the Saviors and Daryl, Abe and Sasha has been forgotten or is being overlooked as to WHY Rick and Co are going hard core on the Saviors.  Just because I needed to refresh my own memory I looked at the transcript from Forever Evolving.

 

Why don't you come on out, join us in the road?

That's great.

It's going well right out of the gate.

Now, step two, hand over your weapons.

Why should we?

Well, they're not yours.

Whose are they?

Your property now belongs to Negan.

And if you can get your hands on a tanker, you're people our person wants to know.

So let's get those sidearms, shall we?

Right now.

Thank you.

Thank you.

If you have to eat sh1t, best not to nibble.

Bite, chew, swallow, repeat.

It goes quicker.

( mouths ) Thank you.

Who are you people?

I get the curiosity, but we have questions ourselves.

And we'll be the ones asking them while we drive you back to wherever it is you call home.

Take a gander at where you hang your hats.

First, though, your sh1t.

What have you got for us?

Yeah, you just took it.

Come on.

I mean, can we not, okay?

There's more.

There is always more.

( sighs )

T... take my man to the back of the truck, start inside the back bumper, work your way to the front.

Go.

Bite, chew, swallow, repeat.

Who's Negan?

♪ Ding, dong ♪

♪ Hell's bells. ♪

You see, usually we introduce ourselves by just popping one of you right off the bat.

But you seem like reasonable people.

I mean, you're sportin' dress blues, for Christ's sake.

And, like I said, we're gonna drive you back to where you were.

I mean, do you know how awkward it is carpooling with someone whose friend or friends you've just killed?

Oof.

But I told you not to ask any questions.

And then what does this ginger do?

So that's that.

I don't want you to get the wrong impression of me.

( hammer clicks )

Wait.

Wait.

You don't have to do this.

Shut up.

I am talking to the man.

No, you're not.

( hammer clicks )

( sighs )

I'm not gonna kill you.

( sighs )

Wait, wait.

You know what?

Yes, I am.

( Sasha grunts )

( groans )

( groans, coughs )

Son of a bitch was tougher than he looked.

Sasha: Did he cut you?

A little.

What a bunch of assholes.

Let's get you fixed up at home.

Yes, ma'am.

( spits )

Nibble on that.

 

There were what like 7 or 8 of the Saviors-on-the-Road, henceforth known as SOR.  They were speaking FOR and about Negan. They said they normally introduce themselves by killing someone right away. But said they would spare them IF they gave up their weapons which they clearly didn't have much intention of honoring IMO.  He kept raising and lowering his weapons. They wanted to know where CDB was living which was an implied threat from the SOR(Saviors on the Road) to scout CDBs digs to see what they can use and will take. Obviously, murder is one of their strongarm tactics. Clearly, Daryl, Abe and Sasha relayed this confrontation to Rick.

 

 

I think the past behavior of the SORs combined with the 411 about a hostage being held by the Saviors, I think it's not at all unreasonable for Rick to think the SOR were an accurate representation of the Saviors as an entire group who act on behalf of Negan at Negan's directions. 

[Nashville]

The Saviours who we met this week did not seem 'evil', they didn't do anything that Rick and Co wouldn't do in a heartbeat. It's frustrating that this whole Negan storyline is tainted by the source material, it makes it too easy for viewers to straight away jump onboard with people being murdered in their sleep without thinking, what do Rick and Co actually know about these Saviours?

Ok - going by strictly what the broadcast show has shown us:

• In the biker crew's initial encounter with S/A/D, their "spokesman" clearly communicated the crew's intent was not a simple robbery of convenience, but a scorched-earth policy. Spokesguy had no qualms with stating (a) their usual MO was to immediately kill one of any group they encountered just to get their victims' attentions, (b) he also had no problem with killing any extraneous people who simply irritated him (as was demonstrated by his response to RedDick's "Who's Negan?"), and (c ) the only reason for leaving anybody alive was so the survivor(s) could lead the crew back to Survivor Home Base - and what do you think would happen when they got there...? Definitely puts them on Santa's Naughty list IMHO.
• The Saviors' entire approach with the Hilltoppers - initially approaching them in force and threatening total destruction unless Hilltop periodically gives them HALF of all production, responding with murder and kidnapping rather than ANY form of negotiation when there's a question of whether or not a particular delivery is "light", demanding acts extreme self-sacrificial violence ("Bring me the head of Gregory") to forestall their wrath - in what way is this not an ultraviolent twist on a classic protection racket? And while CDB's initial report of the arrangement was definitely based on Hilltop word-of-mouth, it was also definitely verified by the Saviors' response to the perceived light load. The Saviors by their own actions demonstrated themselves to be the post-ZA incarnation of the Mafia, and nobody who would negotiate with CDB in good faith.
• Regarding the possibility of Savior members who don't like the violence, but go along to get along: whether they approve or not, their acquiescence and actions directly support this ultraviolent group. If an enemy soldier shoots at you, are you supposed to not shoot back simply because the soldier may not like or agree with the shoot orders s/he is following? Because that bullet whizzing at your head sure doesn't care.

By both direct and indirect experience CDB is justified in considering the Saviors as a threat, and NOT somebody with whom they could successfully negotiate.

[GodsBeloved]

It seems like the entire nature of the confrontation between the Saviors and Daryl, Abe and Sasha has been forgotten or is being overlooked as to WHY Rick and Co are going hard core on the Saviors.  Just because I needed to refresh my own memory I looked at the transcript from Forever Evolving.

 

No I haven't forgotten the confrontation between Sasha, Daryl, Abe and the Saviors. My point was that Rick was willing and ready to take Hilltop's provisions whether they agreed to it or not. The Saviors and what they did/do played no part in Rick's stance(he wasn't leaving Hilltop without their food) as far as I can see.

[catrox14]

 

No I haven't forgotten the confrontation between Sasha, Daryl, Abe and the Saviors. My point was that Rick was willing and ready to take Hilltop's provisions whether they agreed to it or not. The Saviors and what they did/do played no part in Rick's stance(he wasn't leaving Hilltop without their food) as far as I can see.

 

I quoted you but I was really meaning to respond to the entire discussion. 

 

But to your point, can you refresh me when Rick made the decision to just go in and take all their food without any negotiation from the get go. I feel like I must have missed a huge development. 

[GodsBeloved]

But to your point, can you refresh me when Rick made the decision to just go in and take all their food without any negotiation from the get go. I feel like I must have missed a huge development. 

I don't recall Rick deciding to take their food, definitely not all of it without trying to negotiate. In my post I said:

Yes he was willing to negotiate but by his own words he was also willing to do whatever it took to leave with Hilltop's provisions whether Hilltop agreed or not.

 

 

If I recall correctly he said he wasn't leaving there without food. Maybe I jumped the gun, but I took that to mean he was going to get food no matter what Hilltop decided.

[catrox14]

I don't recall Rick deciding to take their food, definitely not all of it without trying to negotiate. In my post I said:

If I recall correctly he said he wasn't leaving there without food. Maybe I jumped the gun, but I took that to mean he was going to get food no matter what Hilltop decided.

 

Okay. I remember that part. I took it just as him saying, we are going to get what we want but through further negotiation. Because didn't he say they would give a couple of days?   It was shortly after that Gregory inserted the caveat of Rick and Co killing Negan as part of their deal with the Hilltoppers.  I really never took anything Rick said as an implied threat that they would take anything from the Hilltoppers by force. The only promise of force was against the Saviors as part of the deal with the Hilltoppers. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by catrox14

[CletusMusashi]

I mean, if you're going to do an evil mirror twin episode, at least give them some evil goatees.

Morgan's evil goatee would be named Ahtibat.

[peach]

Daryl took that risk by being with the Claimers, and I think he'd say so.  He was the one in the group who wasn't a bad guy, but if some other group came after them to get revenge for some previous rape and attack, then he'd be killed along with them.  That's just the way the cookie crumbles.  Furthermore, without Rick's throat intervention, if he'd stayed with that group, he'd either have to stand by during attacks like this, or kill them himself, or leave.  If he stayed with people doing that, then he would deserve their fate for choosing that group.

[CletusMusashi]

P.S.: Carol is the bomb.  ;-)

Amen.

[AngelaHunter]

I mean, if you're going to do an evil mirror twin episode, at least give them some evil goatees.

 

There's no point. All Goatees of Evil would be very sad and pale imitations of Mr.Spock's historicall, eternally, and terminally hot Evil Goatee.

[Raven1707]

I don't recall Rick deciding to take their food, definitely not all of it without trying to negotiate. In my post I said:

If I recall correctly he said he wasn't leaving there without food. Maybe I jumped the gun, but I took that to mean he was going to get food no matter what Hilltop decided.

 

The actual dialogue:

 

Jesus: We want to generate trade, Gregory does. But ammo isn’t something we urgently need.

Rick: Well, how’s that?

Jesus: The walls hold. We just brought in more medicine. Gregory wants the best deal possible.

Daryl: (pacing) Yeah, well, we want things, too.

Rick: We need food. We came all this way, we’re gonna get it.

Jesus: I will talk to him and we will work this out. Circumstances change. We’re doing well now, and you will next. I will make him understand that. Can you give me a few days?

Michonne: We can.

Rick: (looks at Michonne, then at Jesus) Yeah.

[Caelicola]

Morgan's evil goatee would be named Ahtibat.

I wish I could like this more than once. I'm still chuckling about it.

[North of Eden]

THE WALKING DEAD has a bad habit of killing of some great villains way to quickly! Alicia Witt was frankly AWESOME and I wanted her to get away to menace again another day. What a waste of great bad guy and actress.

 

Very tense episode being kept in suspense for when Carol was going to be Carol and deal with these kidnappers (though I still as said didn't want Alicia Witt killed). She seems to have lost her mojo by the end of the episode. I don't think I liked Carol dialed back.

[NoWillToResist]

What I want to know is: would Rick have let Negan's gang (and his own hostage) go if they gave up Carol and Maggie? Wouldn't that directly contradict his promise/deal to the Hilltoppers? In which case, Paula was right to not believe him and set a trap in preparation for the assumed double cross that was coming.

 

I admit Daryl comforting Carol was sweet. That's the most openly nurturing Daryl has ever been, I think.

 

It's very 'feast or famine' where Daryl/Carol airtime is concerned. :)

 

Repeating what I said earlier in the other thread.  Watching the Saviors lecture Carol and Maggie was annoying, but Carol and Maggie were awesome.

 

If Carol, Morgan, Gabriel, etc., all have a crises of conscious at the same time/wrong time, that could cause even more problems than it already has.

 

Man, Negan's alleged crew members suck. Big with the talkie talkie and oversharing. It really takes away their menace when they volunteer their sad stories and heartaches with their captives. Way to undercut your whole reputation, guys. Sheesh

 

 

Who knew the ZA would be a place to hold a pissing contest over who has the most dead kids? Alicia's four sure tops Carol's one.

 

Sophia, Lizzie, Mika, Sam...Carol and Paula are almost even (though only 1/4 of Carol's dead kids were biologically hers)

 

I did like Paula's characterization. I think as Alicia Witt suggested on TTD, she seemed to sense that there was something "off" about Carol, thus all Paula's preening about how strong, tough and ruthless she was. If Carol was such a helplessly inferior and weak little bird, why all the attempts at dominance? All of the boasting and bragging came off as oddly defensive and was proof of her insecurity and weakness. Truly strong people don't constantly talk about how strong they are or tear others down to make themselves appear strong. Compare and contrast with someone like Jesus, who is incredibly competent but who is unshowy and modest about it.

 

I guess that's why it's hard for me to take the Saviours seriously. "Negan" might be a force to be reckoned with, but the individual Saviours are way too invested in talking about how strong and tough they are. If you need to talk about what a badass you are, you're not.

 

Exactly. They are not coming off as serious threats. Between them chatting up their prey and having a zero kill success rate against CDB, it's almost laughable. Almost enough to make me question whether these guys are actually in league with the Big Bad Negan.

 

Ok - going by strictly what the broadcast show has shown us:

• In the biker crew's initial encounter with S/A/D, their "spokesman" clearly communicated the crew's intent was not a simple robbery of convenience, but a scorched-earth policy. Spokesguy had no qualms with stating (a) their usual MO was to immediately kill one of any group they encountered just to get their victims' attentions, (b) he also had no problem with killing any extraneous people who simply irritated him (as was demonstrated by his response to RedDick's "Who's Negan?"), and (c ) the only reason for leaving anybody alive was so the survivor(s) could lead the crew back to Survivor Home Base - and what do you think would happen when they got there...? Definitely puts them on Santa's Naughty list IMHO.
• The Saviors' entire approach with the Hilltoppers - initially approaching them in force and threatening total destruction unless Hilltop periodically gives them HALF of all production, responding with murder and kidnapping rather than ANY form of negotiation when there's a question of whether or not a particular delivery is "light", demanding acts extreme self-sacrificial violence ("Bring me the head of Gregory") to forestall their wrath - in what way is this not an ultraviolent twist on a classic protection racket? And while CDB's initial report of the arrangement was definitely based on Hilltop word-of-mouth, it was also definitely verified by the Saviors' response to the perceived light load. The Saviors by their own actions demonstrated themselves to be the post-ZA incarnation of the Mafia, and nobody who would negotiate with CDB in good faith.
• Regarding the possibility of Savior members who don't like the violence, but go along to get along: whether they approve or not, their acquiescence and actions directly support this ultraviolent group. If an enemy soldier shoots at you, are you supposed to not shoot back simply because the soldier may not like or agree with the shoot orders s/he is following? Because that bullet whizzing at your head sure doesn't care.

By both direct and indirect experience CDB is justified in considering the Saviors as a threat, and NOT somebody with whom they could successfully negotiate.

 

 

I fully believe that Negan and his saviours are the actual Big Bads this season but I love how, the way things have been presented to us, I feel like Negan and his group could actually not be villains at all. Bear with me here...

 

Road ambush guy SAYS he's with Negan. There's no way to prove it. I mean, Rick and his crew could go out to steal food and claim to their victims that they work with/for Negan. IIRC, everything else they know about Negan's crew came via Jesus and the Hilltoppers, whom Rick and his crew have chosen to believe.

 

They claim Negan and his crew take half of their productions. They claim Negan killed a teenager in a rage. The only fact which seems to have been verified is that they wanted Gregory's head in exchange for the Hilltopper the had taken for exchange. But again, we only have the Hilltoppers word on what the beef was about. What if Gregory was the real dick in their interactions and Negan's crew had had enough of his tyranny? Didn't seem like anyone rushed to try and protect Gregory from the attack from his own guy...

 

For all we know, Negan is simply a rival of the Hilltoppers and Jesus has been playing CDB all along to get rid of the competition. For all their alleged fearsome ways, the Saviours have been a zero threat. They didn't kill Carol or Maggie, even though Paula didn't believe that the exchange would happen as Rick had promised. There was no need to even keep C&M alive if they planned to ambush Rick's group.

 

The only real thing I've seen which supports the notion that the saviours are evil is the wall o' death in that ONE guy's room. Equally, without context on the kills, I'm not sure that's all that damning anyway. Maybe it's the guy's wall of vengeance, rather than some sick mural of dead innocents.

 

Anyway, I'm sure Negan and his gang will be the threat we've been presented; I just think it would be fucking amazing if it was all a red herring and Jesus was actually the villain. :D

[InsertWordHere]

The only real thing I've seen which supports the notion that the saviours are evil is the wall o' death in that ONE guy's room. Equally, without context on the kills, I'm not sure that's all that damning anyway. Maybe it's the guy's wall of vengeance, rather than some sick mural of dead innocents.

The wall o' death could be something the head bad guy puts in his lackey's rooms as sort of a "do my bidding or else this will happen to you or your loved ones" warning. For all we (and Rick's gang) know, all of the people slaughtered in their beds could have had loved ones being kept in another location with threats against their well-being unless these saviors do what they're told to do, just like Hilltop guy's brother was being held until his brother killed Gregory.

 

Sure, it's not likely that this is the case, but it's still possible.  

[magemaud]

Could Maggie have been deliberately downplaying how far along she was in her pregnancy when asked by her captors?

[Nashville]

Man, Negan's alleged crew members suck. Big with the talkie talkie and oversharing. It really takes away their menace when they volunteer their sad stories and heartaches with their captives. Way to undercut your whole reputation, guys. Sheesh

Exactly. They are not coming off as serious threats. Between them chatting up their prey and having a zero kill success rate against CDB, it's almost laughable. Almost enough to make me question whether these guys are actually in league with the Big Bad Negan.

 

My current estimation of Negan's crew is that they are orcs; individually they are pretty ineffective, but what they lack in individual capability they generally (try to) more than make up for with sheer numbers. 

Confront them one on one, and you might walk away without a scratch.

Three on one, and you still stand a good chance of being the last standing with little more than a few cuts and scrapes (Daryl, Maggie).

Thirty on one, however...?  Or more? 

Think death of a thousand cuts.

 

I fully believe that Negan and his saviours are the actual Big Bads this season but I love how, the way things have been presented to us, I feel like Negan and his group could actually not be villains at all. Bear with me here...

 

Cool; usually I'm the one playing devil's advocate.  ;>

 

Here's yet another alternative, though (hence the bolding above): instead of the choice being either good guys or villians - why not both?

CDB appears to be pulling off the same schtick without a hitch, after all.

This sort of moral blurring could be an unavoidable result of extended group survival in the ZA.

Hmmm....

 

 

Road ambush guy SAYS he's with Negan. There's no way to prove it.

 

Er - other than the confirmation by Paula and her crew, you mean?  ;>

 

What if Gregory was the real dick in their interactions and Negan's crew had had enough of his tyranny? Didn't seem like anyone rushed to try and protect Gregory from the attack from his own guy...

 

Actually, I'm pretty convinced Gregory is/was the dick, and tried passing off a light load to see if he could get away with it - and was probably laughing internally at his cleverness in putting one over the stupid Neganoids, right up until the moment a shiv in his gut dampened his sense of humor.

 

The only real thing I've seen which supports the notion that the saviours are evil is the wall o' death in that ONE guy's room. Equally, without context on the kills, I'm not sure that's all that damning anyway. Maybe it's the guy's wall of vengeance, rather than some sick mural of dead innocents.

 

One man seeking murderous vengeance against that many?  There's a term for people like that: serial killer.

 

Anyway, I'm sure Negan and his gang will be the threat we've been presented; I just think it would be fucking amazing if it was all a red herring and Jesus was actually the villain. :D

Anton LaVey would agree. ;>

[NoWillToResist]

Er - other than the confirmation by Paula and her crew, you mean?  ;>

 

Good point; I had forgotten about that. :) Still, Rick and his crew had already invaded and murdered all those people in the storage facility without that confirmation.

 

So, Rick and the gang ambushed this place and killed every single person there...based on what the Hilltoppers told them and an unconfirmed allegiance from the assholes who intercepted Daryl, Sasha and Abraham. I wish Gabriel had voiced THOSE concerns rather than the standard "can't we try talking to them?" Literally NO ONE questioned the validity of Jesus' stories?

 

I found it quite impressive that Paula didn't hold the rocket launcher attack against CDB because they were just defending themselves but she (understandably) took issue with her group being slaughtered preemptively in their beds.

 

I don't think any of Negan's crew have actually killed anyone (that we've witnessed), have they? Sure they've threatened to do so, but CDB have more of a "kill first, ask questions later" reputation than Negan's gang now.

 

I would just kind of love the narrative fallout that would occur if CDB realized they'd been played and were basically bamboozled into being executioners for some seemingly innocent group...

Here's yet another alternative, though (hence the bolding above): instead of the choice being either good guys or villians - why not both?

CDB appears to be pulling off the same schtick without a hitch, after all.

This sort of moral blurring could be an unavoidable result of extended group survival in the ZA.

Hmmm....

 

 

 

One man seeking murderous vengeance against that many?  There's a term for people like that: serial killer.

 

Sure, Negan's group might be morally grey but they've been built up so much that they're basically the boogeymen now. Unless they literally kill everyone the moment they meet, I'm going to be sorely disappointed.

 

As far as one man seeking murderous vengeance against that many people...as far as I'm concerned, all it would take for me to congratulate the guy would be finding out that all of those people had taken a turn on his daughter or wife or whatever. We've come across people/groups like that before, so sadly I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that someone might have an axe to grind with multiple people...

[AngelaHunter]

They are not coming off as serious threats. Between them chatting up their prey and having a zero kill success rate against CDB, it's almost laughable

 

I wonder if that could have anything to do with them all being women? In what appears to be a largely male-dominated world of the ZA, women may feel a bond with other women - loss of children they bore, the constant threat of rape or worse, knowing they're physically weaker could all create an instant recognition, a feeling of empathy even if they deny it.

 

They certainly had no pity or concern for the man in the room.

[SyncMaster]

My favorite character in this episode was good ol' Molls.  I liked seeing a woman that was at least as old as Carol, that was probably about the same height as Deanna, smoked cigarettes, had a serious health issue and talked plenty of shit all while handling walkers without fear.

 

Out of all of the lovely sayings that came out of her mouth my favorite was "Magnolia?  Where are you? I wanna mess up that..." after she was attacked by, and then took down, her risen teammate.

 

A runner-up was the snotty "I didn't think you approved" to Carol when Carol asked for a cigarette.

 

Yup, I liked ol' Molls.

[Nashville]

Sure, Negan's group might be morally grey but they've been built up so much that they're basically the boogeymen now. Unless they literally kill everyone the moment they meet, I'm going to be sorely disappointed.

 

Actually, the focus of my comment was more focused on how the moral fuzziness could be applied to CDB just as easily as Negan's Nimrods.... ;)

As far as one man seeking murderous vengeance against that many people...as far as I'm concerned, all it would take for me to congratulate the guy would be finding out that all of those people had taken a turn on his daughter or wife or whatever. We've come across people/groups like that before, so sadly I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that someone might have an axe to grind with multiple people...

Vengeful Family Man might have reasons to beat down a crowd, sure.

But taking Polaroids to preserve the moment in pictures - to relive it over and over again...?

Nah - my money's still on sociopath.

[Raven1707]

The Live +3 Ratings are in for this episode:

 

 

Coming off a season low in adults 18-49 in the same-day ratings, the March 13 episode of “The Walking Dead” also had a smaller-than-usual lift after three days of delayed viewing.

 

It’s still the top show on TV, by a big margin, but relative to its own standard it’s on the low side. The episode has a Live +3 rating of 8.2, down from the 8.8 and 8.7 the past two weeks. Its gain of 2.2 points is also lower than recent weeks (2.7 and 2.6). [16.740 million viewers]

 

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/03/21/cable-live-3-ratings-march-7-13-2016/

[NoWillToResist]

Vengeful Family Man might have reasons to beat down a crowd, sure.

But taking Polaroids to preserve the moment in pictures - to relive it over and over again...?

Nah - my money's still on sociopath.

 

Oh, I'm quite sure our intrepid "heroes" will be proven justified in their preemptive attack on Negan's crew; I just enjoy playing with the idea that CDB are actually the proactive, remorseless killers in this scenario. :)

[Nashville]

Oh, I'm quite sure our intrepid "heroes" will be proven justified in their preemptive attack on Negan's crew; I just enjoy playing with the idea that CDB are actually the proactive, remorseless killers in this scenario. :)

They both are!

TWD is actually Dexter in disguise!

:)

[Raven1707]

Here are the Live +7 Ratings for Episode 613, “The Same Boat”:

 

“The Walking Dead” sits atop the Live +7 Ratings for March 7-13, per usual. The show gained 2.6 points in adults 18-49 over a week (6.0 to 8.6) and grew by better than 5 million viewers (12.530 million to 17.571 million).

 

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/03/29/cable-live-7-ratings-march-7-13-2016/

[Milks26]

This was a great episode. Sneaky Carol rise again. I really wish they would take her off the story arc she's currently on. I understand her remorse at what she's done when compared to the woman she used to be. But, its getting boring and redundant.

 

I liked the Molly character - to bad she had to die. She had a lot of spunk.

[ByTor]

On 3/13/2016 at 10:33 PM, mustbekarma said:

I find if frustrating, but all too human, for the Saviors to be outraged that someone dared to challenge them and kill them without mercy. It's all right for them to murder people indiscriminately, but it's not all right for others to fight back.

Sounds like Rick's philosophy as well.